TO WILL PFAFF: You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you are against ethnic cleansing, you can't proceed to justify or apologize for ethnic cleansing committed by Croatians, Albanians or Bosnian Muslims. The "They started it" argument is childish and ridiculously oversimplify's the situation. If a westerner goes into areas controlled by ISIS and starts beheading innocent civilians can that Westerner just say "they started it" and walk away scott free??? I don't think so. Not only is it a childish and over simplification you it is outright obstruction of justice to those Serbian civilians killed and or expelled. That attitude and massive effort to deny Serbian victims of the war any type of justice MUST change if their is to be true peace and reconciliation in the balkans.
Your link to the population of Kosovo was extremely interesting. did you read it?? The number one question that comes to mind, if by census of Yugoslavia or more to the point Serbia, the Serb population in Kosovo since 1948 has never reached the 250,000 mark, then where did these 250 thousand Serbs that have been cleansed from Kosovo (as claimed by your group) come from?
(just to clarify, 2 December 2014 23:55)
Over 200, 000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo-Metohija during the German occupation by SS Skenderbeg. These people were barred from returning by Tito's communist regime who then allowed hundreds of thousands of Albanian settlers to move in.
So yes, Serbia has a lot to reflect on and a lot to be ashamed about. But that shame stems from allowing the vile communist dictatorship to completely decimate Serbia for "Brotherhood & Unity", as they called it in that time.
(Ari Gold, 2 December 2014 21:37)
Your link to the population of Kosovo was extremely interesting. did you read it?? The number one question that comes to mind, if by census of Yugoslavia or more to the point Serbia, the Serb population in Kosovo since 1948 has never reached the 250,000 mark, then where did these 250 thousand Serbs that have been cleansed from Kosovo (as claimed by your group) come from?
No one has stated that Albanians were permanently cleansed from Kosovo, only that Milosevic led a cleansing campaign and did in effect force more than 800,000 Albanians out of Kosovo, however, the removal of Serb forces from Kosovo allowed these to return to their land(I say land because most of the homes were destroyed).
So were Albanians cleansed from Kosovo, yes but only temporarily, it took 78 days of bombing but most did return.
And yes just like Serbs leaving Serbia for a better life, Albanians are leaving Kosovo for one too!
You rejected Z4 and you got oluja - is this Croatias fault? Germany's or Serbias?
(Morning Shake, 1 December 2014 22:52)
I didn't reject anything. Reversing your thought process, What's your motto?
Arbeit Macht Frei or Za Dom Spremei?
Flash and Storm came after the failed Sarajevo breakout in April 1995 when the ArBiH showed that they were completly useless despite all the arms that the West and their allies were sending them.
Without the United States Navy flying SEAD for you croatians, training your soldiers, sending you old soviet military stock and arms from third parties like Iran, up to date satellite images and holding your hand from A to Z throughout the whole operation, you would have been f**&*d. The multipronged strategy of Flash and Storm was way beyond the capabilities of the croatian armed forces.
Certainly. Here are your facts. These figures are based off the official data from Communist Yugoslavia which shows a huge spike in Albanian inhabitants from 1945 onwards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#World_War_II
Not for one year, not even for one day, has the Albanian population ever went down in Kosovo-Metohija, only the Serbian population. So it obviously cannot be ethnic cleansing if no one was ever cleansed. Now facts and numbers are merely inconveniences for overt Serbophobe Nazis like Willi Pfaff who has went so far to rationalize organ harvesting as a necessary act to empower Albanian separatism.
The time period where Albanians have left Kosovo-Metohioja the most? Ironically, after 1999 to right now. Albanians are leaving in droves trying to get the hell out of their "newborn" (see stillborn) quasi-state.
Ar Gold said : ....Check any demographics and you will see hundreds of thousands Albanians migrating to Kosovo-Metohija every year during communism, and this number did not drop by even a % during the 80s-90s...
Could you please show us any evidence to back up your gibberish?
Albania was the most isolated country ever during the communist times (identical to today's North Korea), so I doubt it was possible for hundreds of thousand albanians as you claim to cross the border into Serbia without being shot and killed by the communist Albanian army first and without having been in the news here. I never heard of it and I have been around a long time.
I would like to see any evidence you have into the population immigration from Albania to Serbia from 1944 till 1999.
(PS: evidence as in facts from an independent third party, not your worthless opinions)
(Ari Gold, 2 December 2014 14:37)
You are partially right, Albanians were not ethnically cleansed from Kosovo as you and Milosevic had hoped. They were temporarily relocated out of the country through force, coercion and brutality. It was meant to be permanent, but as history will forever show, Milosevic bit off more than he could chew and was put in his place (a jail cell at the Hague).
Now were the Serbs ethnically cleansed or did they choose to leave? If you move out of a neighborhood because you feel that you are superior to the people there, you have not been cleansed.
If you flee an area for fear of RETRIBUTION for your own actions against others, you were not cleansed.
If you flee to escape criminal prosecution for war crimes, you were not cleansed.
Can you create a new math to prove ethnic cleansing, no way and Serbs claimed numbers do not add up, and are mathematically impossible.
But as far as your claims that not even a day did the Albanian population just shows utter stupidity and establishes a credibility of zero.
TO THINK AGAIN: You are completely twisting realty to suit your anti-serb bias. NO WHERE in my comments does it say Serbia should not take any responisibility for the wars of the past. Yet you insist that is the argument being made anytime even just a little bit of criticsm (no matter how valid) about another side in this whole fiasco. Serbia has cooperated with the Haugue, prosecuted war crimes suspects in it's own courts, reformed its politics, committed to peace. What has Croatia, Kosmet Albanians, or even Bosnians done to own up to their crimes???? Absolutely nothing is the God's honest truth and I think you know that. None of those before mentioned groups have prosecuted any of their 'own' people despite depsite having plenty of serbian dead bodies to own up to. Croatia was grasping for pieces of bosnia and pursued a state policy to expel and or kill Serbs within Croatia all in the name of "Croatian Independence". Kosmet has Albanian politicians with blood on their hands and are all to eager to kill their own to ensure no witnesses bring their crimes to light. Serbia has done more than enough to own up to their responsibility for the past wars. It is definitely time for its neighbours and Germany who played a negative role in the break up of Yugoslavia to reciprocate.
I don't deny that, but they were the victims of their own leadership, Milosevic's insane politics of ethnic cleansing. He started it
(Willi Pfaff, 2 December 2014 11:14)
Ethic cleansing is not something that is a matter of opinion. It's a matter of numbers. And the numbers say that since WWII up until the 1990s, the Albanian population in Kosovo-Metohija has never once, not for one year, not for one day... ever went down.
Check any demographics and you will see hundreds of thousands Albanians migrating to Kosovo-Metohija every year during communism, and this number did not drop by even a % during the 80s-90s.
If you can, please show me when exactly did this ethnic cleansing take place. Just put aside your foaming-at-the-mouth racism, nazism and Serbophobia for one second, show me during which time-frame did the number of Albanian inhabitants go down. Only the Serbian population of Kosovo-Metohija has been ethnically cleansed. Before the war and after, no doubt. But more importantly, during communist Yugoslavia where Serbs were forced from their homes and not allowed to return by Tito's regime.
So we do agree some where you old sick man. We agree that Serbia made some huge mistakes that it needs to be honest with itself about. But that mistake is allowing communist Yugoslavia to survive for 45 years during which it completely obliterated Serbia, Serbian national identity, and security for Serbian nationals.
Boom is right there in Serbia, giving us all a pretty dreary assessment.
That's been my personal experience from talking with people whenever I have visited.
As boom points out, the big problem is that the government is still controlled by too many figures with blood on their hands, and there is no independent media. In a way, Milosevic lives on. It's still 1999 in Serbia. Walk off your flight to Belgrade and walk through a time portal to 15 years ago. People there still debate who did what to whom in the wars, who is really on trial at The Hague - individual Serbs or the entire Serb nation? - and whether Kosovo is still Serbia.
Serbs need to get real and face facts. They also need to start using their brains to think about things that actually matter.
Just deal with the truth and move on already. The rest of the world has and no one is going to hold a grudge as long as you take accountability for your actions.
Same goes for other Balkan nations, by the way, because Serbia certainly didn't act alone.
Serbia was a perpetrator and a victim
(Sreten, 2 December 2014 09:50)
I don't deny that, but they were the victims of their own leadership, Milosevic's insane politics of ethnic cleansing. He started it, and as those horrible wars dragged on and Milosesevic Serbia was pushed back Serbs faced the same horrible fate as the Croats, Bosnians and Kosovars did when Milosevic brought serbian terror to those countries. Ethnic cleansing on both sides is / was the wrong way to deal with the problem, but I can't blame the people in Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo that they didn't want to live, couldn't trust their serbian neighbors any more after they were brutally massacred from that terror regime Milosevic established. Serbs were the victims of their own regime, but now should be the time to start mending fences again, try a new start the peace process. That is only possible if Serbia understands just that and realizes the role it played in that awful conflict.
Willi Pfaff
Serbia was a perpetrator and a victim. I don't deny all the wrong doing that Serbs did, and most Serbs don't as far as I know.
It's the others, including western political-military establishment that insist "we did nothing wrong"
Oh, yes, you did!
So much!
Can you admit it?
...Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator...
Pfaff is absolutely right. I am pessimistic as to the future of the Balkans. Not because of the individual like ari gold here, but because of the majority of people in Serbia I see everyday who think alike. There is a total blackout on Serb media about war crimes our army committed and we are constantly portrayed as victims through individual acts of violence against serbs perpetrated by croats or albanians. Vucic himself is a poorly reformed nationalist who fought in Bosnia for Milosevic and most Serb governing class is contaminated in one way or the other with Milosevic crimes, and there is in all honesty an inherent genuine hate here against all non serb people. I doubt acceptance is in the near future, we are stuck in the denial stage. There is urgent need that EU imposed some independent school curriculum regarding our history in schools, our young could still be saved.
As usual, Ari exposes his complete lack of knowledge of recent Balkan history. He claims that hundreds of thousands of Serbs were slaughtered in the 90s wars, not realizing that the total number of people killed - most of them non-Serbs - was somewhere between 100,000 - 150,000. He always tries to accuse moderate Serbs of being Albo or Croat trolls, but with such ignorance of Balkan "trivia", his own "Serbian" identity is suspect.
Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator.
(Willi Pfaff, 1 December 2014 19:47)
No you are the victim. The victim of your own insanity and ragging hatred for Serbia. And really, Germany was the perpetrator and instigator of the Yugoslav wars, of WWI and WWII. You uttering the vile hate-filled dribble on here on a daily basis is really the pot calling the kettle black.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)
Yup. Like forcing through the recognition of Croatia. They sure gave a damn about the Serb minority there and absolutely loved Holocaust denying Franjo Tudjman and his rehabilitation of WWII Ustase 'heroes'.
Recognition It was such a stunning foreign policy success that Herr Genscher resigned in shame. Still, the Austrians were and are worse as Alois Mock was running around Europe demanding that yugoslavia should be broken up.
What about supporting Kiev's with neo-nazis running the security ministries after Maidan and still after the new elections? Yup. Both countries have 'nice' nazis who are compatible with Germany's european ideals.
Hungarians, Serbs and Russians are 'bad' nazis. That's the EU's 'European Ideal'. Because they don't do as they are told
Or maybe you would like to comment on German behavior to its Turkish minority? Quite a few German politicians have and guess what? They were less than complimentary.
There's plenty more, but you should be careful, the German political class doesn't like criticism.
The real issue here is Germany admitted to their wrongs and moved on, where Serbia is still standing back and saying "we did nothing wrong" its every one else.
(think again, 1 December 2014 17:23)
Just what I have been saying all along as well. Without that important step Serbia can not become a member of the EU. That can only be achieved with a different government and a complete change of the way the serbian press deals with that subject. Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator.
(Odin, 1 December 2014 16:38)
Not an elephant in the room. You are looking at this from a totally Serbian point of view. The one where Serbs were the victims in every aspect. The problem is Germany and the rest of Europe do not see it the same way as you do. So there is no elephant only the fact you need to take the Serb blinders off.
The real issue here is Germany admitted to their wrongs and moved on, where Serbia is still standing back and saying "we did nothing wrong" its every one else. Doubt what I said, read your own post.
To Think Again: The elephant in the room is why doesn't Germanyapply these lofty human rights standards to its former nazi era allies in the balkans. They could and should have been putting conditions on Croatia to face up to war crimes as well. The silence from Germany when it comes to war crimes and corruption within Kosovo speaks volumes as well. Their are plenty of very legitimate reasons to criticize Germany with regard to how they have handled the Balkans beyond those already mentioned. If you don't agree to that or scoff at that than even more reason to raise objection to the way Germany has treated Serbia over the past 20 years.
To compare German war crimes and atrocities to Serbia is not just deluded, but sick!
(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 12:47
Kind of shows your thought process. Aren't you one of the ones that thinks that vandalizing abandoned graves and the throwing of stones at buses is an example of "ethnic cleansing"
The article is talking about Serbia's ascension to the EU not the regions, Serbia is being judged on its role it played in the break up of Yugoslavia, and their role in Kosovo. You as a Serb, feel that everything Serbia did was justified but most of the world does not agree with you. If you want an isolated existence that is ok but if you want to be on the world stage you have to come to terms with it.
No one thinks Serbia was responsible for 6 million deaths but Milosevic was stopped before he completed his mission, who knows what would have been the final result if he had not been stopped. An embarrassment that the EU and west felt they could not allow to happen.
don't you think it's a little stupid to compare Serbia to Nazi Germany while ignoring the reality of the crimes committed by Serbia's neighbors?
(Ari Gold, 1 December 2014 13:01)
I wasn't the one making the comparison, rather reacting to someone else who had tried to do that. I agree. It's silly to bring up Nazi Germany in this context.
Thing is, the topic here is Serbia joining the EU and its readiness to work on certain chapters.
(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 10:38
Germany will always be remembered for their part of what happened in the 30's and 40's but they will also be remembered for what they did to make sure that it will never happen again.
Can you or other Serbs say the same? no, as you are frothing at the mouth to someday have the chance to finish what you started.
The people responsible for the terror of Hitler are dead and gone, a part of history, the youngest at the time would be in their 90's now.
The people in Serbia who assisted, advised, supported and reveled Milosevic are not only still alive, but are in power today.
To scoff at Germany's ability to set limits based on Serbian actions not only shows idiocy it proves that it is necessary.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)
The problem is you are singling out Serbia when the entire region has a "past" which you are completely ignorant about, or are choosing to ignore due to your own self-hatred if we are to assume you really are Serbian.
With people like Hashim Thaci, Naser Oric, Ante Gotovina who between them murdered hundreds of thousands of people... with people like Alija Izetbegovic who brought over thousands of Jihadists who if they are alive today are fighting for ISIS... don't you think it's a little stupid to compare Serbia to Nazi Germany while ignoring the reality of the crimes committed by Serbia's neighbors?
"(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 10:38)
Not ironic at all.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)"
To compare German war crimes and atrocities to Serbia is not just deluded, but sick!
(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 10:38
Germany will always be remembered for their part of what happened in the 30's and 40's but they will also be remembered for what they did to make sure that it will never happen again.
Can you or other Serbs say the same? no, as you are frothing at the mouth to someday have the chance to finish what you started.
The people responsible for the terror of Hitler are dead and gone, a part of history, the youngest at the time would be in their 90's now.
The people in Serbia who assisted, advised, supported and reveled Milosevic are not only still alive, but are in power today.
To scoff at Germany's ability to set limits based on Serbian actions not only shows idiocy it proves that it is necessary.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)
The problem is you are singling out Serbia when the entire region has a "past" which you are completely ignorant about, or are choosing to ignore due to your own self-hatred if we are to assume you really are Serbian.
With people like Hashim Thaci, Naser Oric, Ante Gotovina who between them murdered hundreds of thousands of people... with people like Alija Izetbegovic who brought over thousands of Jihadists who if they are alive today are fighting for ISIS... don't you think it's a little stupid to compare Serbia to Nazi Germany while ignoring the reality of the crimes committed by Serbia's neighbors?
To compare German war crimes and atrocities to Serbia is not just deluded, but sick!
(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 12:47
Kind of shows your thought process. Aren't you one of the ones that thinks that vandalizing abandoned graves and the throwing of stones at buses is an example of "ethnic cleansing"
The article is talking about Serbia's ascension to the EU not the regions, Serbia is being judged on its role it played in the break up of Yugoslavia, and their role in Kosovo. You as a Serb, feel that everything Serbia did was justified but most of the world does not agree with you. If you want an isolated existence that is ok but if you want to be on the world stage you have to come to terms with it.
No one thinks Serbia was responsible for 6 million deaths but Milosevic was stopped before he completed his mission, who knows what would have been the final result if he had not been stopped. An embarrassment that the EU and west felt they could not allow to happen.
don't you think it's a little stupid to compare Serbia to Nazi Germany while ignoring the reality of the crimes committed by Serbia's neighbors?
(Ari Gold, 1 December 2014 13:01)
I wasn't the one making the comparison, rather reacting to someone else who had tried to do that. I agree. It's silly to bring up Nazi Germany in this context.
Thing is, the topic here is Serbia joining the EU and its readiness to work on certain chapters.
"(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 10:38)
Not ironic at all.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)"
To compare German war crimes and atrocities to Serbia is not just deluded, but sick!
To Think Again: The elephant in the room is why doesn't Germanyapply these lofty human rights standards to its former nazi era allies in the balkans. They could and should have been putting conditions on Croatia to face up to war crimes as well. The silence from Germany when it comes to war crimes and corruption within Kosovo speaks volumes as well. Their are plenty of very legitimate reasons to criticize Germany with regard to how they have handled the Balkans beyond those already mentioned. If you don't agree to that or scoff at that than even more reason to raise objection to the way Germany has treated Serbia over the past 20 years.
(Odin, 1 December 2014 16:38)
Not an elephant in the room. You are looking at this from a totally Serbian point of view. The one where Serbs were the victims in every aspect. The problem is Germany and the rest of Europe do not see it the same way as you do. So there is no elephant only the fact you need to take the Serb blinders off.
The real issue here is Germany admitted to their wrongs and moved on, where Serbia is still standing back and saying "we did nothing wrong" its every one else. Doubt what I said, read your own post.
The real issue here is Germany admitted to their wrongs and moved on, where Serbia is still standing back and saying "we did nothing wrong" its every one else.
(think again, 1 December 2014 17:23)
Just what I have been saying all along as well. Without that important step Serbia can not become a member of the EU. That can only be achieved with a different government and a complete change of the way the serbian press deals with that subject. Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)
Yup. Like forcing through the recognition of Croatia. They sure gave a damn about the Serb minority there and absolutely loved Holocaust denying Franjo Tudjman and his rehabilitation of WWII Ustase 'heroes'.
Recognition It was such a stunning foreign policy success that Herr Genscher resigned in shame. Still, the Austrians were and are worse as Alois Mock was running around Europe demanding that yugoslavia should be broken up.
What about supporting Kiev's with neo-nazis running the security ministries after Maidan and still after the new elections? Yup. Both countries have 'nice' nazis who are compatible with Germany's european ideals.
Hungarians, Serbs and Russians are 'bad' nazis. That's the EU's 'European Ideal'. Because they don't do as they are told
Or maybe you would like to comment on German behavior to its Turkish minority? Quite a few German politicians have and guess what? They were less than complimentary.
There's plenty more, but you should be careful, the German political class doesn't like criticism.
Boom is right there in Serbia, giving us all a pretty dreary assessment.
That's been my personal experience from talking with people whenever I have visited.
As boom points out, the big problem is that the government is still controlled by too many figures with blood on their hands, and there is no independent media. In a way, Milosevic lives on. It's still 1999 in Serbia. Walk off your flight to Belgrade and walk through a time portal to 15 years ago. People there still debate who did what to whom in the wars, who is really on trial at The Hague - individual Serbs or the entire Serb nation? - and whether Kosovo is still Serbia.
Serbs need to get real and face facts. They also need to start using their brains to think about things that actually matter.
Just deal with the truth and move on already. The rest of the world has and no one is going to hold a grudge as long as you take accountability for your actions.
Same goes for other Balkan nations, by the way, because Serbia certainly didn't act alone.
Willi Pfaff
Serbia was a perpetrator and a victim. I don't deny all the wrong doing that Serbs did, and most Serbs don't as far as I know.
It's the others, including western political-military establishment that insist "we did nothing wrong"
Oh, yes, you did!
So much!
Can you admit it?
(Ari Gold, 2 December 2014 14:37)
You are partially right, Albanians were not ethnically cleansed from Kosovo as you and Milosevic had hoped. They were temporarily relocated out of the country through force, coercion and brutality. It was meant to be permanent, but as history will forever show, Milosevic bit off more than he could chew and was put in his place (a jail cell at the Hague).
Now were the Serbs ethnically cleansed or did they choose to leave? If you move out of a neighborhood because you feel that you are superior to the people there, you have not been cleansed.
If you flee an area for fear of RETRIBUTION for your own actions against others, you were not cleansed.
If you flee to escape criminal prosecution for war crimes, you were not cleansed.
Can you create a new math to prove ethnic cleansing, no way and Serbs claimed numbers do not add up, and are mathematically impossible.
But as far as your claims that not even a day did the Albanian population just shows utter stupidity and establishes a credibility of zero.
(Ari Gold, 2 December 2014 21:37)
Your link to the population of Kosovo was extremely interesting. did you read it?? The number one question that comes to mind, if by census of Yugoslavia or more to the point Serbia, the Serb population in Kosovo since 1948 has never reached the 250,000 mark, then where did these 250 thousand Serbs that have been cleansed from Kosovo (as claimed by your group) come from?
No one has stated that Albanians were permanently cleansed from Kosovo, only that Milosevic led a cleansing campaign and did in effect force more than 800,000 Albanians out of Kosovo, however, the removal of Serb forces from Kosovo allowed these to return to their land(I say land because most of the homes were destroyed).
So were Albanians cleansed from Kosovo, yes but only temporarily, it took 78 days of bombing but most did return.
And yes just like Serbs leaving Serbia for a better life, Albanians are leaving Kosovo for one too!
...Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator...
Pfaff is absolutely right. I am pessimistic as to the future of the Balkans. Not because of the individual like ari gold here, but because of the majority of people in Serbia I see everyday who think alike. There is a total blackout on Serb media about war crimes our army committed and we are constantly portrayed as victims through individual acts of violence against serbs perpetrated by croats or albanians. Vucic himself is a poorly reformed nationalist who fought in Bosnia for Milosevic and most Serb governing class is contaminated in one way or the other with Milosevic crimes, and there is in all honesty an inherent genuine hate here against all non serb people. I doubt acceptance is in the near future, we are stuck in the denial stage. There is urgent need that EU imposed some independent school curriculum regarding our history in schools, our young could still be saved.
TO WILL PFAFF: You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you are against ethnic cleansing, you can't proceed to justify or apologize for ethnic cleansing committed by Croatians, Albanians or Bosnian Muslims. The "They started it" argument is childish and ridiculously oversimplify's the situation. If a westerner goes into areas controlled by ISIS and starts beheading innocent civilians can that Westerner just say "they started it" and walk away scott free??? I don't think so. Not only is it a childish and over simplification you it is outright obstruction of justice to those Serbian civilians killed and or expelled. That attitude and massive effort to deny Serbian victims of the war any type of justice MUST change if their is to be true peace and reconciliation in the balkans.
Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator.
(Willi Pfaff, 1 December 2014 19:47)
No you are the victim. The victim of your own insanity and ragging hatred for Serbia. And really, Germany was the perpetrator and instigator of the Yugoslav wars, of WWI and WWII. You uttering the vile hate-filled dribble on here on a daily basis is really the pot calling the kettle black.
Serbia was a perpetrator and a victim
(Sreten, 2 December 2014 09:50)
I don't deny that, but they were the victims of their own leadership, Milosevic's insane politics of ethnic cleansing. He started it, and as those horrible wars dragged on and Milosesevic Serbia was pushed back Serbs faced the same horrible fate as the Croats, Bosnians and Kosovars did when Milosevic brought serbian terror to those countries. Ethnic cleansing on both sides is / was the wrong way to deal with the problem, but I can't blame the people in Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo that they didn't want to live, couldn't trust their serbian neighbors any more after they were brutally massacred from that terror regime Milosevic established. Serbs were the victims of their own regime, but now should be the time to start mending fences again, try a new start the peace process. That is only possible if Serbia understands just that and realizes the role it played in that awful conflict.
TO THINK AGAIN: You are completely twisting realty to suit your anti-serb bias. NO WHERE in my comments does it say Serbia should not take any responisibility for the wars of the past. Yet you insist that is the argument being made anytime even just a little bit of criticsm (no matter how valid) about another side in this whole fiasco. Serbia has cooperated with the Haugue, prosecuted war crimes suspects in it's own courts, reformed its politics, committed to peace. What has Croatia, Kosmet Albanians, or even Bosnians done to own up to their crimes???? Absolutely nothing is the God's honest truth and I think you know that. None of those before mentioned groups have prosecuted any of their 'own' people despite depsite having plenty of serbian dead bodies to own up to. Croatia was grasping for pieces of bosnia and pursued a state policy to expel and or kill Serbs within Croatia all in the name of "Croatian Independence". Kosmet has Albanian politicians with blood on their hands and are all to eager to kill their own to ensure no witnesses bring their crimes to light. Serbia has done more than enough to own up to their responsibility for the past wars. It is definitely time for its neighbours and Germany who played a negative role in the break up of Yugoslavia to reciprocate.
As usual, Ari exposes his complete lack of knowledge of recent Balkan history. He claims that hundreds of thousands of Serbs were slaughtered in the 90s wars, not realizing that the total number of people killed - most of them non-Serbs - was somewhere between 100,000 - 150,000. He always tries to accuse moderate Serbs of being Albo or Croat trolls, but with such ignorance of Balkan "trivia", his own "Serbian" identity is suspect.
Your link to the population of Kosovo was extremely interesting. did you read it?? The number one question that comes to mind, if by census of Yugoslavia or more to the point Serbia, the Serb population in Kosovo since 1948 has never reached the 250,000 mark, then where did these 250 thousand Serbs that have been cleansed from Kosovo (as claimed by your group) come from?
(just to clarify, 2 December 2014 23:55)
Over 200, 000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo-Metohija during the German occupation by SS Skenderbeg. These people were barred from returning by Tito's communist regime who then allowed hundreds of thousands of Albanian settlers to move in.
So yes, Serbia has a lot to reflect on and a lot to be ashamed about. But that shame stems from allowing the vile communist dictatorship to completely decimate Serbia for "Brotherhood & Unity", as they called it in that time.
I don't deny that, but they were the victims of their own leadership, Milosevic's insane politics of ethnic cleansing. He started it
(Willi Pfaff, 2 December 2014 11:14)
Ethic cleansing is not something that is a matter of opinion. It's a matter of numbers. And the numbers say that since WWII up until the 1990s, the Albanian population in Kosovo-Metohija has never once, not for one year, not for one day... ever went down.
Check any demographics and you will see hundreds of thousands Albanians migrating to Kosovo-Metohija every year during communism, and this number did not drop by even a % during the 80s-90s.
If you can, please show me when exactly did this ethnic cleansing take place. Just put aside your foaming-at-the-mouth racism, nazism and Serbophobia for one second, show me during which time-frame did the number of Albanian inhabitants go down. Only the Serbian population of Kosovo-Metohija has been ethnically cleansed. Before the war and after, no doubt. But more importantly, during communist Yugoslavia where Serbs were forced from their homes and not allowed to return by Tito's regime.
So we do agree some where you old sick man. We agree that Serbia made some huge mistakes that it needs to be honest with itself about. But that mistake is allowing communist Yugoslavia to survive for 45 years during which it completely obliterated Serbia, Serbian national identity, and security for Serbian nationals.
Ar Gold said : ....Check any demographics and you will see hundreds of thousands Albanians migrating to Kosovo-Metohija every year during communism, and this number did not drop by even a % during the 80s-90s...
Could you please show us any evidence to back up your gibberish?
Albania was the most isolated country ever during the communist times (identical to today's North Korea), so I doubt it was possible for hundreds of thousand albanians as you claim to cross the border into Serbia without being shot and killed by the communist Albanian army first and without having been in the news here. I never heard of it and I have been around a long time.
I would like to see any evidence you have into the population immigration from Albania to Serbia from 1944 till 1999.
(PS: evidence as in facts from an independent third party, not your worthless opinions)
You rejected Z4 and you got oluja - is this Croatias fault? Germany's or Serbias?
(Morning Shake, 1 December 2014 22:52)
I didn't reject anything. Reversing your thought process, What's your motto?
Arbeit Macht Frei or Za Dom Spremei?
Flash and Storm came after the failed Sarajevo breakout in April 1995 when the ArBiH showed that they were completly useless despite all the arms that the West and their allies were sending them.
Without the United States Navy flying SEAD for you croatians, training your soldiers, sending you old soviet military stock and arms from third parties like Iran, up to date satellite images and holding your hand from A to Z throughout the whole operation, you would have been f**&*d. The multipronged strategy of Flash and Storm was way beyond the capabilities of the croatian armed forces.
Certainly. Here are your facts. These figures are based off the official data from Communist Yugoslavia which shows a huge spike in Albanian inhabitants from 1945 onwards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#World_War_II
Not for one year, not even for one day, has the Albanian population ever went down in Kosovo-Metohija, only the Serbian population. So it obviously cannot be ethnic cleansing if no one was ever cleansed. Now facts and numbers are merely inconveniences for overt Serbophobe Nazis like Willi Pfaff who has went so far to rationalize organ harvesting as a necessary act to empower Albanian separatism.
The time period where Albanians have left Kosovo-Metohioja the most? Ironically, after 1999 to right now. Albanians are leaving in droves trying to get the hell out of their "newborn" (see stillborn) quasi-state.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)
The problem is you are singling out Serbia when the entire region has a "past" which you are completely ignorant about, or are choosing to ignore due to your own self-hatred if we are to assume you really are Serbian.
With people like Hashim Thaci, Naser Oric, Ante Gotovina who between them murdered hundreds of thousands of people... with people like Alija Izetbegovic who brought over thousands of Jihadists who if they are alive today are fighting for ISIS... don't you think it's a little stupid to compare Serbia to Nazi Germany while ignoring the reality of the crimes committed by Serbia's neighbors?
"(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 10:38)
Not ironic at all.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)"
To compare German war crimes and atrocities to Serbia is not just deluded, but sick!
(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 10:38
Germany will always be remembered for their part of what happened in the 30's and 40's but they will also be remembered for what they did to make sure that it will never happen again.
Can you or other Serbs say the same? no, as you are frothing at the mouth to someday have the chance to finish what you started.
The people responsible for the terror of Hitler are dead and gone, a part of history, the youngest at the time would be in their 90's now.
The people in Serbia who assisted, advised, supported and reveled Milosevic are not only still alive, but are in power today.
To scoff at Germany's ability to set limits based on Serbian actions not only shows idiocy it proves that it is necessary.
don't you think it's a little stupid to compare Serbia to Nazi Germany while ignoring the reality of the crimes committed by Serbia's neighbors?
(Ari Gold, 1 December 2014 13:01)
I wasn't the one making the comparison, rather reacting to someone else who had tried to do that. I agree. It's silly to bring up Nazi Germany in this context.
Thing is, the topic here is Serbia joining the EU and its readiness to work on certain chapters.
To compare German war crimes and atrocities to Serbia is not just deluded, but sick!
(So sad, too bad, 1 December 2014 12:47
Kind of shows your thought process. Aren't you one of the ones that thinks that vandalizing abandoned graves and the throwing of stones at buses is an example of "ethnic cleansing"
The article is talking about Serbia's ascension to the EU not the regions, Serbia is being judged on its role it played in the break up of Yugoslavia, and their role in Kosovo. You as a Serb, feel that everything Serbia did was justified but most of the world does not agree with you. If you want an isolated existence that is ok but if you want to be on the world stage you have to come to terms with it.
No one thinks Serbia was responsible for 6 million deaths but Milosevic was stopped before he completed his mission, who knows what would have been the final result if he had not been stopped. An embarrassment that the EU and west felt they could not allow to happen.
(Odin, 1 December 2014 16:38)
Not an elephant in the room. You are looking at this from a totally Serbian point of view. The one where Serbs were the victims in every aspect. The problem is Germany and the rest of Europe do not see it the same way as you do. So there is no elephant only the fact you need to take the Serb blinders off.
The real issue here is Germany admitted to their wrongs and moved on, where Serbia is still standing back and saying "we did nothing wrong" its every one else. Doubt what I said, read your own post.
The real issue here is Germany admitted to their wrongs and moved on, where Serbia is still standing back and saying "we did nothing wrong" its every one else.
(think again, 1 December 2014 17:23)
Just what I have been saying all along as well. Without that important step Serbia can not become a member of the EU. That can only be achieved with a different government and a complete change of the way the serbian press deals with that subject. Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator.
Unlike Serbia, Germany has learned from its past. Serbia could learn a lot from Germany
(Danilo, 1 December 2014 11:59)
Yup. Like forcing through the recognition of Croatia. They sure gave a damn about the Serb minority there and absolutely loved Holocaust denying Franjo Tudjman and his rehabilitation of WWII Ustase 'heroes'.
Recognition It was such a stunning foreign policy success that Herr Genscher resigned in shame. Still, the Austrians were and are worse as Alois Mock was running around Europe demanding that yugoslavia should be broken up.
What about supporting Kiev's with neo-nazis running the security ministries after Maidan and still after the new elections? Yup. Both countries have 'nice' nazis who are compatible with Germany's european ideals.
Hungarians, Serbs and Russians are 'bad' nazis. That's the EU's 'European Ideal'. Because they don't do as they are told
Or maybe you would like to comment on German behavior to its Turkish minority? Quite a few German politicians have and guess what? They were less than complimentary.
There's plenty more, but you should be careful, the German political class doesn't like criticism.
To Think Again: The elephant in the room is why doesn't Germanyapply these lofty human rights standards to its former nazi era allies in the balkans. They could and should have been putting conditions on Croatia to face up to war crimes as well. The silence from Germany when it comes to war crimes and corruption within Kosovo speaks volumes as well. Their are plenty of very legitimate reasons to criticize Germany with regard to how they have handled the Balkans beyond those already mentioned. If you don't agree to that or scoff at that than even more reason to raise objection to the way Germany has treated Serbia over the past 20 years.
Serbia was a perpetrator and a victim
(Sreten, 2 December 2014 09:50)
I don't deny that, but they were the victims of their own leadership, Milosevic's insane politics of ethnic cleansing. He started it, and as those horrible wars dragged on and Milosesevic Serbia was pushed back Serbs faced the same horrible fate as the Croats, Bosnians and Kosovars did when Milosevic brought serbian terror to those countries. Ethnic cleansing on both sides is / was the wrong way to deal with the problem, but I can't blame the people in Croatia, Bosnia or Kosovo that they didn't want to live, couldn't trust their serbian neighbors any more after they were brutally massacred from that terror regime Milosevic established. Serbs were the victims of their own regime, but now should be the time to start mending fences again, try a new start the peace process. That is only possible if Serbia understands just that and realizes the role it played in that awful conflict.
TO WILL PFAFF: You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you are against ethnic cleansing, you can't proceed to justify or apologize for ethnic cleansing committed by Croatians, Albanians or Bosnian Muslims. The "They started it" argument is childish and ridiculously oversimplify's the situation. If a westerner goes into areas controlled by ISIS and starts beheading innocent civilians can that Westerner just say "they started it" and walk away scott free??? I don't think so. Not only is it a childish and over simplification you it is outright obstruction of justice to those Serbian civilians killed and or expelled. That attitude and massive effort to deny Serbian victims of the war any type of justice MUST change if their is to be true peace and reconciliation in the balkans.
I don't deny that, but they were the victims of their own leadership, Milosevic's insane politics of ethnic cleansing. He started it
(Willi Pfaff, 2 December 2014 11:14)
Ethic cleansing is not something that is a matter of opinion. It's a matter of numbers. And the numbers say that since WWII up until the 1990s, the Albanian population in Kosovo-Metohija has never once, not for one year, not for one day... ever went down.
Check any demographics and you will see hundreds of thousands Albanians migrating to Kosovo-Metohija every year during communism, and this number did not drop by even a % during the 80s-90s.
If you can, please show me when exactly did this ethnic cleansing take place. Just put aside your foaming-at-the-mouth racism, nazism and Serbophobia for one second, show me during which time-frame did the number of Albanian inhabitants go down. Only the Serbian population of Kosovo-Metohija has been ethnically cleansed. Before the war and after, no doubt. But more importantly, during communist Yugoslavia where Serbs were forced from their homes and not allowed to return by Tito's regime.
So we do agree some where you old sick man. We agree that Serbia made some huge mistakes that it needs to be honest with itself about. But that mistake is allowing communist Yugoslavia to survive for 45 years during which it completely obliterated Serbia, Serbian national identity, and security for Serbian nationals.
(Ari Gold, 2 December 2014 14:37)
You are partially right, Albanians were not ethnically cleansed from Kosovo as you and Milosevic had hoped. They were temporarily relocated out of the country through force, coercion and brutality. It was meant to be permanent, but as history will forever show, Milosevic bit off more than he could chew and was put in his place (a jail cell at the Hague).
Now were the Serbs ethnically cleansed or did they choose to leave? If you move out of a neighborhood because you feel that you are superior to the people there, you have not been cleansed.
If you flee an area for fear of RETRIBUTION for your own actions against others, you were not cleansed.
If you flee to escape criminal prosecution for war crimes, you were not cleansed.
Can you create a new math to prove ethnic cleansing, no way and Serbs claimed numbers do not add up, and are mathematically impossible.
But as far as your claims that not even a day did the Albanian population just shows utter stupidity and establishes a credibility of zero.
TO THINK AGAIN: You are completely twisting realty to suit your anti-serb bias. NO WHERE in my comments does it say Serbia should not take any responisibility for the wars of the past. Yet you insist that is the argument being made anytime even just a little bit of criticsm (no matter how valid) about another side in this whole fiasco. Serbia has cooperated with the Haugue, prosecuted war crimes suspects in it's own courts, reformed its politics, committed to peace. What has Croatia, Kosmet Albanians, or even Bosnians done to own up to their crimes???? Absolutely nothing is the God's honest truth and I think you know that. None of those before mentioned groups have prosecuted any of their 'own' people despite depsite having plenty of serbian dead bodies to own up to. Croatia was grasping for pieces of bosnia and pursued a state policy to expel and or kill Serbs within Croatia all in the name of "Croatian Independence". Kosmet has Albanian politicians with blood on their hands and are all to eager to kill their own to ensure no witnesses bring their crimes to light. Serbia has done more than enough to own up to their responsibility for the past wars. It is definitely time for its neighbours and Germany who played a negative role in the break up of Yugoslavia to reciprocate.
You rejected Z4 and you got oluja - is this Croatias fault? Germany's or Serbias?
(Morning Shake, 1 December 2014 22:52)
I didn't reject anything. Reversing your thought process, What's your motto?
Arbeit Macht Frei or Za Dom Spremei?
Flash and Storm came after the failed Sarajevo breakout in April 1995 when the ArBiH showed that they were completly useless despite all the arms that the West and their allies were sending them.
Without the United States Navy flying SEAD for you croatians, training your soldiers, sending you old soviet military stock and arms from third parties like Iran, up to date satellite images and holding your hand from A to Z throughout the whole operation, you would have been f**&*d. The multipronged strategy of Flash and Storm was way beyond the capabilities of the croatian armed forces.
Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator.
(Willi Pfaff, 1 December 2014 19:47)
No you are the victim. The victim of your own insanity and ragging hatred for Serbia. And really, Germany was the perpetrator and instigator of the Yugoslav wars, of WWI and WWII. You uttering the vile hate-filled dribble on here on a daily basis is really the pot calling the kettle black.
As usual, Ari exposes his complete lack of knowledge of recent Balkan history. He claims that hundreds of thousands of Serbs were slaughtered in the 90s wars, not realizing that the total number of people killed - most of them non-Serbs - was somewhere between 100,000 - 150,000. He always tries to accuse moderate Serbs of being Albo or Croat trolls, but with such ignorance of Balkan "trivia", his own "Serbian" identity is suspect.
...Serbia wasn't the victim, Serbia was the perpetrator...
Pfaff is absolutely right. I am pessimistic as to the future of the Balkans. Not because of the individual like ari gold here, but because of the majority of people in Serbia I see everyday who think alike. There is a total blackout on Serb media about war crimes our army committed and we are constantly portrayed as victims through individual acts of violence against serbs perpetrated by croats or albanians. Vucic himself is a poorly reformed nationalist who fought in Bosnia for Milosevic and most Serb governing class is contaminated in one way or the other with Milosevic crimes, and there is in all honesty an inherent genuine hate here against all non serb people. I doubt acceptance is in the near future, we are stuck in the denial stage. There is urgent need that EU imposed some independent school curriculum regarding our history in schools, our young could still be saved.
Certainly. Here are your facts. These figures are based off the official data from Communist Yugoslavia which shows a huge spike in Albanian inhabitants from 1945 onwards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#World_War_II
Not for one year, not even for one day, has the Albanian population ever went down in Kosovo-Metohija, only the Serbian population. So it obviously cannot be ethnic cleansing if no one was ever cleansed. Now facts and numbers are merely inconveniences for overt Serbophobe Nazis like Willi Pfaff who has went so far to rationalize organ harvesting as a necessary act to empower Albanian separatism.
The time period where Albanians have left Kosovo-Metohioja the most? Ironically, after 1999 to right now. Albanians are leaving in droves trying to get the hell out of their "newborn" (see stillborn) quasi-state.
Your link to the population of Kosovo was extremely interesting. did you read it?? The number one question that comes to mind, if by census of Yugoslavia or more to the point Serbia, the Serb population in Kosovo since 1948 has never reached the 250,000 mark, then where did these 250 thousand Serbs that have been cleansed from Kosovo (as claimed by your group) come from?
(just to clarify, 2 December 2014 23:55)
Over 200, 000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo-Metohija during the German occupation by SS Skenderbeg. These people were barred from returning by Tito's communist regime who then allowed hundreds of thousands of Albanian settlers to move in.
So yes, Serbia has a lot to reflect on and a lot to be ashamed about. But that shame stems from allowing the vile communist dictatorship to completely decimate Serbia for "Brotherhood & Unity", as they called it in that time.
Willi Pfaff
Serbia was a perpetrator and a victim. I don't deny all the wrong doing that Serbs did, and most Serbs don't as far as I know.
It's the others, including western political-military establishment that insist "we did nothing wrong"
Oh, yes, you did!
So much!
Can you admit it?
Boom is right there in Serbia, giving us all a pretty dreary assessment.
That's been my personal experience from talking with people whenever I have visited.
As boom points out, the big problem is that the government is still controlled by too many figures with blood on their hands, and there is no independent media. In a way, Milosevic lives on. It's still 1999 in Serbia. Walk off your flight to Belgrade and walk through a time portal to 15 years ago. People there still debate who did what to whom in the wars, who is really on trial at The Hague - individual Serbs or the entire Serb nation? - and whether Kosovo is still Serbia.
Serbs need to get real and face facts. They also need to start using their brains to think about things that actually matter.
Just deal with the truth and move on already. The rest of the world has and no one is going to hold a grudge as long as you take accountability for your actions.
Same goes for other Balkan nations, by the way, because Serbia certainly didn't act alone.
Ar Gold said : ....Check any demographics and you will see hundreds of thousands Albanians migrating to Kosovo-Metohija every year during communism, and this number did not drop by even a % during the 80s-90s...
Could you please show us any evidence to back up your gibberish?
Albania was the most isolated country ever during the communist times (identical to today's North Korea), so I doubt it was possible for hundreds of thousand albanians as you claim to cross the border into Serbia without being shot and killed by the communist Albanian army first and without having been in the news here. I never heard of it and I have been around a long time.
I would like to see any evidence you have into the population immigration from Albania to Serbia from 1944 till 1999.
(PS: evidence as in facts from an independent third party, not your worthless opinions)
(Ari Gold, 2 December 2014 21:37)
Your link to the population of Kosovo was extremely interesting. did you read it?? The number one question that comes to mind, if by census of Yugoslavia or more to the point Serbia, the Serb population in Kosovo since 1948 has never reached the 250,000 mark, then where did these 250 thousand Serbs that have been cleansed from Kosovo (as claimed by your group) come from?
No one has stated that Albanians were permanently cleansed from Kosovo, only that Milosevic led a cleansing campaign and did in effect force more than 800,000 Albanians out of Kosovo, however, the removal of Serb forces from Kosovo allowed these to return to their land(I say land because most of the homes were destroyed).
So were Albanians cleansed from Kosovo, yes but only temporarily, it took 78 days of bombing but most did return.
And yes just like Serbs leaving Serbia for a better life, Albanians are leaving Kosovo for one too!
IMAGE SOURCE
29 Komentari
Sortiraj po: