Pressure on Serb refugees to cancel residence in Croatia

So what.... Now Croatia is the country of your dreams but in 1991 it was the devil. You maggots wanted a Sao Krajina and now that its defunct and Serbia proper has no need for you, you feell the need to return to Lijepa Nasa like nothing ever happend. You people don't even hold a 'Domovnica' so how can you return when your considered an illegal alien. Stay the F**K where you are as all you can do is bring an already drain on the government. F**king minorities think they can do as they please.

Bam Bam using expletives with gay abandon does nothing for your argument it just shows how narrow-minded and uneducated you are. My advice is go crawl back into the hole you inconsiderately emerged from..

The exact same measure should be applied to croats living in serbia.

an eye for an eye - this is the only true form of justice

The Serbs wanted to carve up and hold onto 35% of Croatia. With the backing of the Yugoslav army and the "Paramilitary - Murders, Rapists & Looters" they ransacked and wreaked havoc for 2 to 3 years. The general Serb public supported and went all with the "Greater Serbia Plan".

Croatia re-armed and defeated the Serbs "Operation Storm" in 2 days and re-captured Croatian territory. The Serbs left Croatia by order of their own Serbian leaders. The general Serb population left knowing they had blood on their hands during the pillaging of Croat land and property.

Now that Serbia's economy is in a shambles, some Serbs want to come back to Croatia like nothing happened.

Well unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

The Serbs got what the deserved, good riddance.

Thanks

Dan

From Dan: "The Serbs wanted to carve up and hold onto 35% of Croatia. With the backing of the Yugoslav army and the "Paramilitary - Murders, Rapists & Looters" they ransacked and wreaked havoc for 2 to 3 years. The general Serb public supported and went all with the "Greater Serbia Plan".

This sounds like propaganda written by the well-paid PR firms that the Croat gov't. spent millions on. Please Dan, if the Serbs wanted a Greater Serbia as you say, why did they wait until Croatia illegally declared independence? Your arguement is baseless. Serbs in Krajina were living there long before it was ever Croatia, invited by the A-H Empire to defend your ancestors. After the last independent Croatia (1941) where Croats tried to exterminate the Serbs, why in the world would Serbs want to live inside of the illegally created new Croatia? Ask yourself that Dan. This was the Greater Croatia of your ancestors dreams. Serbs wanted nothing to do with it the 2nd time around.


From Dan: "Now that Serbia's economy is in a shambles, some Serbs want to come back to Croatia like nothing happened."

Wrong again dan. Serbs only want to return to the land that they've owned for over 500 years. It's certainly not the crumbling Croat economy where 30% of people undr 30 are unemployeed, inflation is skyrocketing and corruption is flourishing. Western companies are reluctant to invest there because of the nationaistic right wingers seem to run the country as opposed to the elected gov't.

Dear RSK.....

The Serb leaders realized "total and utter defeat" during Operation Storm, the same Serb leaders gave orders and instructions to the general Serb population to leave "mass exodus" Croatia and to go to areas of Bosnia, Kosovo and Rump Serbia to carry on with their "Greater Serbia - Plan B" of ethnic cleansing which the Serbs are very well known for.

The Serbs effectively ethnic cleansed themselves from Croatia after being humiliated outright on the battlefields of Croatia. You (RSK) used the word "voluntarily" ???? there is no such word in my previous post.

But as you know the Serb leaders "ordered" the general Serb population to flee, so that they could plunder other neighbouring countries.

As it turned out "Plan B" didn't turn that much better after that the Serbs then lost the Bosnian War and then the Kosovo War and ended up with bringing upon Serbia proper the bombs of NATO.

In the end, the Serbs betrayed themselves and turned over to the Hague ALL of their leaders which they blindly followed for over a decade......Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic, Seselj, etc etc etc etc..............

I guess the Serbs will now celebrate these defeats like they celebrate their defeat in Kosovo for over 600 years ago.

Well that is just fine, because I am sure Croatia will celebrate Operation Storm for centuries to come.
And the Serbs are more than welcome to celebrate Operation Storm as well !!!

Thanks

Dan

The serbs should have been forced to rebuild the areas in Croatia (and Bosnia and Kosovo) they destroyed. Rebuild the factories and workplaces they bombed, and then come with an apology to their neighbours whose loved ones they raped, tortured and killed.

Not go around whining and playing the victim card, and wonder why there's no jobs.

Stop living in a fantasy world where all croats are/were nazis, thinking it's OK to kill and rape kids because something your grandfathers told you about WW2 (and considering serb history-twisting traditions, didn't happen). Croats had nazi collaborators, France, Norway, Ukraine, Italy etc as well. And serbia too. Nedic, anyone? First juden-frei city in Europe, anyone?

Act as normal people, contribute to society and treat people with respect = welcome. Mladic-lovers = piss off

Dear Bob,

The Serbs started and instigated ALL the wars in the former Yugoslavia and they lost them all.

The Serbs ethnically cleansed themselves from Croatia. The aggressor Serbia, can not play the "victim card", the Serbs gambled and they lost, it is as simple as that.

Suck it up, apologize for the Serbian crimes and get on with life, history can not and will not be rewritten.

Thanks

Dan

The exact same measure should be applied to croats living in serbia.

an eye for an eye - this is the only true form of justice
(scepticism, 21 August 2014 10:53)

If we accepted that logic then , as the old saying goes, "the entire world would be blind and toothless"

Maybe a little less hate and ignorance, and more forgiveness and understanding is what is required - on all sides.

Just a thought

There once was a man named Dan. He belonged to a most vicious clan. Hrvati they called themselves many insane. They were so arrogant and not a little vain. Land is all ours they liked to exclaim. Knowing full well they were just being a pain. You can't have what's not yours even if you threw us out.( Or did you say we left, voluntarily?).The Serbs are coming back you be in no doubt..

Why do they want to return to Croatia?
Reasons they left are NOW not justified?
First they should and in writing submit apologies for crimes they have committed and dishonour fascist leaders they have followed.

njegos- I don't really know why you repeat the same exact lying version of what happened before and after the breakup of communist Yugoslavia, but you seem to put the responsibility on Croatia for apparently breaking International Law...we've discussed this and you know that Milosevic made his intentions clear and the rest of the Republics saw the writing on the wall!

Croatia first asked for autonomy but was denied...communism was done in Europe and yet, Croats should feel safe under a very pro Serbia (velika Srbija) and nationalistic Milosevic? you yourself admitted he was nationalistic and you also admitted he had his agenda.

I guess the only reason you continue down this path of Serb propaganda is because you have no other way of finding truth than to blame others.

The truth should be very open and clear to you by today, CrnaGora and Makedonija both pravoslavci nations wanted to separate from the velika Srbija mentality....this is fact!

accept responsibility and move on njegos, you keep telling the same stories that nobody else believe's!

njegos wrote; "In true Croat cowardly fashion, you sidestep any mention of WWII. Then you go on to minimize the horrors that the Ustasha regime committed."

I sidestep any mention of WW2? Read again. Slowly. Concentrate...
The fact is that you sidestep any mention of the acts by serbs in the 90ies. That says a lot of your (lack of) character.

I haven't minimized the horrors of Ustasa, just tried to open your propaganda-riddled mind. My point is that many serbs can not discuss the war from the 90ies witout starting to justify their genocide with what happened during WW2. And you are a prize example of such a serb.

What's fascinating about your WW2 history knowledge (or rather, selective knowledge), is that you're indifferent to the massacres committed by cetniks.

And for the record, I hate commies. serb commies, Croat commies, any communist. I mentioned partisans, because they were anti fascist (and mostly croats in the beginning). So no, propaganda-boy, not all Croats were "nazis".

And the Bleiburg massacre involved Ustase, but also their families (that means women and children), and also Croats fleeing from a communist regime.
But it was good to see that serb soldiers couldn't fight during Oluja. They're just good at killing civilians.

Waitng for your justification of the Srebrenica massacre... Did the 14 year old muslim boys kill serbs during WW2?

I see a lot of wrongful hate and venomous spite from the Serbs. The Serbs who seem unable to acknowledge the fact that they were aggressors in four wars. The Serbs raped, bombed, ethnically cleansed and spat in the face of their former neighbours and countrymen. And now they want reciprocal harmony without first stretching out their hands saying "We are sorry for all the wrongdoings we did. We are sorry we killed two hundred thousand Bosnians, we are sorry we killed fifty thousand Croats, we are sorry we killed fifty thousand Albanian Kosovars. We are sorry we raped your wifes and daughters, killed your elderlies and children, bombed your churches and houses of worship. We are sorry we bombed your hospitals and kindergartens, your libraries and houses of culture. We are sorry we burned down and pillaged your homes, towns and cities. We are sorry we killed and tortured thousands of your people in our internment camps. We are sorry that we, being your former neighbours, did all of this and more without ever saying an official apology" ...whenever the Serbs are ready to start apologizing and paying war damage, you will most certainly see a totally different attitude from your former victims. As the situation is now, Serbia is still ridden with old ghosts. You can not expect any reconciliation without first going through a national catharsis and start giving out heartfelt apologies to your neighbours. Instead I see a lot of Serbs trying to turn the blame on their former victims.

njegos- its always a challenge to make a point of view to a person or an audience. one must ensure they have the attention and that those listening/reading have the capacity to understand...this is clearly a case of where you do not have the capacity to be objective, factual and/or understand clear facts!

you have always repeated the same "PR Team", "Tudjman attacked Serbs living in Croatia", "Croats broke International law"....such a primitive and uneducated attempt to discredit a nation that is years ahead of yours with less far less the population. are we to blame for you being backwards as well?

Serbia tried but could not attain a PR Team...nobody wanted to touch the aggressors...PR Teams are utilized to inform international community of what was happening. If Croats broke International law, why weren't they penalized internationally? Its simple...only your Serbian view thinks they broke a law...it was velika Srbija's law, not international law!

Krajina was the result of Serbs "UNLAWFULLY" SEPARATING, it was a self-proclaimed and thus were never was internationally recognized...the so called unlawful separation of Croatia declared independence June 1991, which came into effect on 8 October of the same year...see the difference...of course not...you're Serbian and do not accept international recognition, you only know Serbian version!

As I have stated before, move on...stop living in the past and stop believing your own lies!

Dear Njegos,

Your Question: "If someone kills a family member of yours but is never brought to justice, is that person guilty of a crime?"

Answer "NOT GUILTY"

All modern civilized Nations have a JUSTICE system that presume all persons to be "Innocent until proven guilty".

There are cases of Self-Defense, which by the way was the case of "Operation Storm". The Croats defended their own territory and defeated the Serbs who were the aggressors / instigators and who occupied Croatian land / territory.

There is also a thing called "Evidence", if there is NO evidence and a crime CAN NOT be proven with reasonable doubt then there is NO trial, NO one is charged and there is NO guilt.

The Serbs gambled their fate in Croatia in the early 1990's.....the Serbs LOST and then they 'ethnically cleansed' themselves from Croatia under the direct orders of their leadership to pick up and leave.

Thanks

Dan

njegos wrote; "Hey Dr. Love, how about an apology from Croatia and the Vatican for their role in slaughtering Serbs during WWII? Blah blah blah"

How about a serb trying to argument without talking about WW2? You know very well that Ustasa had a small support in the croatian people (try to read some books, how about Esther Gitman's "When Courage Prevailed: The Rescue and Survival of Jews in the Independent State of Croatia 1941-1945", and that croats saw the Nazis as liberators from serbian oppression. (It's bad when you consider nazis as the lesser evil...).

The partisans (anti nazi) were in general croats, until serbs and cowardly cetniks (pro nazi, pro italian fascist, pro Ustasa, anti all the above) joined (of course when the outcome of the war were clear). I know, poor little boy, that you still beleive communist propaganda, that all serbs were heroes and all croats "nazis" as you say.

If you're so interrested in WW2, why don't you talk about the Bleiburg massacre?

I know that (thank God) that not all serbs are so biased and simple as you, some even fought on the bosniaks' side, as they were good people fighting against insane genoside.

Can you explain or justify the Srebrenica massacre? It would be a interresting read, or at least entertaining...

With your logic, it's OK for bosnians, albanians and croats to rape and murder sebs 40-50 years from now? After all you're ALL murdering cetniks, right?

you continue to refer to Tudjman, your accusations him of naming streets after Ustase and that Croatia has no history and yet you attempt to somehow feebly explain Serbs in Krajina had a right to that land although you are not capable of grasping one simple concept...Croatia owned that land (Kingdom of Croatia) even during the period of the Habsburg's. this period when you say we were "stable cleaners" to the Austrian's is similar to you Serbs being "stable cleaners" to Turks (Ottman's)...did you forget that? being part of a western culture is far different than being part of a pre historic culture but if you want to find your roots and figure out why you people are backwards, go to Ankara, I'm sure your great grandparents could explain it to you!

I find it interesting you have been taught that PR Teams affected the perception of Serbia, CNN simply displayed Serb aggression on tv, it was enough for the world to see in plain and simple terms why you act like barbarians, targeting old Dubrovnik and historical buildings, raping women and children and then allowing criminals like Milosevic, Karadzic and Seselj represent you...have you ever seen how they represent themselves in the Hague, its quite hilarious to see these barbaric and sick minded degenerates that your people chose as their leaders. you say Tudjman was bad...at least he stood up to those criminals!


regarding the "International Community": Croatia does not have any criminals at the Hague...Serbia does!

From Dan: "The Serb leaders realized "total and utter defeat" during Operation Storm, the same Serb leaders gave orders and instructions to the general Serb population to leave "mass exodus" Croatia and to go to areas of Bosnia, Kosovo and Rump Serbia to carry on with their "Greater Serbia - Plan B" of ethnic cleansing which the Serbs are very well known for."

Dan - Let's assume you're right and Serbs fled based on orders from Serb leaders. Please then explain why Croats kllled close to 2,000 people, the vast mojority of whom were elderly, women & children? They were leaving on their own, right? Great military victory Dan. You should be very proud of your countrymen.

More from Dan: "As it turned out "Plan B" didn't turn that much better after that the Serbs then lost the Bosnian War..."

Time for a reality check Danny. Serbs are 31% of the population and control 49% of the land in B-H. I'd say that's a clear victory. On the other hand, the Croat population has gone from 24% population to approx. 11% in B-H. And they can't get along with their former allies, the Muslims, in their dysfunctional Federation. Remember Herceg Bosna Dan? This was Tudjman's attempt at forming a Greater Croatia which ended in complete and utter failure. Make no mistake about it, the Croats were the biggest losers in B-H. The irony is this is where the Ustasha state began and soon if the trend continues, there will be no trace left of Croats there. Too bad.

" Let's see, 2,000 Serbs were killed during Storm, most elderly civillians fleeing with their belongings. Many who couldn't leave were found later with their throats slit. But because no one was brought to justice, no war crimes were committed, right?" - was anyone convicted of war crimes? part 2 coming

Milošević: Molim vas, 6 hiljada Hrvata je branilo Vukovar pola godine; napadala je cela Prva armija, vazduhoplovstvo, čudo, sva sila koju je imala JNA, a oni nisu odbranili Knin, kojem se može prići samo iz tri pravca; nisu ga mogli braniti ni 12 sati!?
Oni ga nisu branili, jer po svim izveštajima koje smo dobili od policajaca, građana i ostalih, čim je prestala artiljerijska priprema u sedam uveče, oni su naredili - bežaniju! Prema tome, tu nije bilo nikakvog otpora niti je bilo borbenog dodira sa hrvatskim snagama. (...) - Tamo je palo naređenje da svi izađu iz Krajine istog dana, čak bez stvorenog kontakta sa hrvatskom vojskom na najvećem delu fronta. Da smo istog tog dana napravili idiotsku glupost da im pomognemo, ko bi to stigao do Knina do večeri da im pomogne?! Pa, tamo ne bi moglo da se stigne od njihovih kolona kojima su zakrčili sve putove u bežaniji zajedno sa stanovništvom. (...) Pitanje je ko je, zaista, doneo odluku da krajiško rukovodstvo napusti Krajinu? Takva odluka, kada su imali sve uslove da se brane, izazvala je egzodus. Sada to treba da bude razlog da Jugoslavija jurne tamo da brani te teritorije, sa kojih su oni utekli kao zečevi?

Maybe a little less hate and ignorance, and more forgiveness and understanding is what is required - on all sides.

Just a thought
(truthiness, 22 August 2014 00:20)
===========================
Albanians need to hear this. They will because they are always here in force.

According to Moglo bi bit Serbs: "...killed two hundred thousand Bosnians,...killed fifty thousand Croats,... killed fifty thousand Albanian Kosovars."

Please provide your sources for your ridicuously inflated numbers of those killed. No published statistics of those killed from any reliable international source comes close to the fabricated numbers you've spewed. Unless of course, you're using the statistics from the highly paid PR firms that the Croat gov't. hired to manipulate the western press.

Here are a few facts for you that cannot be disputed:
- Croatia broke international law and the Yugoslav constitution by declaring independence long before any war broke out
- In anticipation of their secession, Croats armed themselves heavily knowing their would be a war
- After Tudjman became President Serbs were fired from their jobs, their homes were vandalized and many were killed long before any war
- The Tudjman gov't. invited back Ustasha war criminals (Dinko Sakic) commander of Jasenovac where more than 750,000 Serbs were slaughtered. Many sources confirm this including Vatican's Holocaust, Unholy Trinity & The Rape of Serbia, all written by non-Serbs. To this day the Croat gov't hasn't apologized but instead minimizes these atrocities.

- Croatia wanted war and you got it. Wars are ugly. Don't cry now and ask for apologies over something you clearly began.

njegos- "Again I ask, if other republics managed to secede with no bloodshed, why then couldn't Croatia?"

Serbs attacked Croatia, eventually, Croatia legally and with the recognition of the majority of the world regained back their territory in Krajina but you don't like to think it was done graciously...while we celebrate the victory as "Oluja"!This is why we don't have war criminals in the Hague but you do...because we defended against aggressors...can you refute that?

Here's an even better question for you to answer. Based on what you said, "Isn't that what the news outlets are tasked with doing? And they do it for free!" - I agree, Serbs are barbaric people because thats how the media portrayed them from 91 - 95. Drunk, barbaric and brutal criminals that ravaged Croatia and BiH! we didn't need any PR Team to do that for us, the news outlets did it themselves...thanks for agreeing!

You lie about Milosevic, he was a Nationalistic monster, you say he wasn't a Serb Nationalist while the entire world saw him as one!

fact: head of the Serbian Communist Party in 1987, In 1989, he inspired violent Serbian demonstrations that drove the constitutionally elected leaders of both Vojvodina and Kosovo out of office. Milosevic had begun building a Greater Serbia. Milosevic's overwhelming popularity among his people has been attributed to his devotion to Serbian unification. Revered as a savior by some, he is called the "Butcher of the Balkans" by others.

that was easy!

Cro Can - You continue to babble on and on about Milosevic as if I were one of his supporters. I have criticized Milosevic time and time again. I was never a supporter of his and I challenge you to point out where I ever said anything positive about him. This idea that he was a Serb nationalist is a joke. He was a hard line communist who would have supported green martians if it helped him to retain power. He abandonded the Serbs.

"Serbs attacked Croatia..."
CC, I know Serb families who had members killed before any war broke out. This happened on the heels of Tudjman's election. Address the issue of Serbs being fired, war criminals and Ustasha symbols reintroduced, homes vandalized. Are you telling me this didn't happen?

"This is why we don't have war criminals in the Hague but you do...because we defended against aggressors...can you refute that?"

I feel like I'm talking to a 2nd grader. Let's see, 2,000 Serbs were killed during Storm, most elderly civillians fleeing with their belongings. Many who couldn't leave were found later with their throats slit. But because no one was brought to justice, no war crimes were committed, right?

Let me use your Croatian logic. If a Serb kills your family member but is never brought to justice, no crime took place right CC?

(More in my next post)

when you start to admit, you will get better results. the war was one sided and there is a ton of evidence for you to research it yourself.

Milosevic prevented Croats rights, he didn't allow Mesic to attend presidency meetings, Kostic admitted in court that they introduced an imminent threat of war while on one hand they control the government and on the other, they do not allow a voice to be heard from the Croatian representative. TACTIC!

General Miloslav Djordjevic admitted in court that Karadzic and Milosevic discussed "how to get rid of Slovenia and half of Croatia"...this was admitted in sworn testimony!

you see njegos, you say that you hated Milosevic and yet this entire was started because of his policies, provocative policies and tactics. if he didn't begin with the nationalism by supporting the events in Knin and if he didn't rally the people regarding Kosovo and so many other incidents...nobody would have felt as threatened as they did. Serbs protested in the streets against him BUT, when he organized and authorized the annexation of Serb Krajina, Serbs in Serbia supported it LONG before war. Croatians were not able to stop anything, the army was controlled by a Serb leader...eventually, those that deserted the army went to their homes and those that were left were primarily Serbs or Orthodox religion. you can say Milosevic was hated...but he was supported to steal from Croatia!

Cro Can - I'm going use caps and type real slow so that maybe you will understand the question this time. Here goes:

LET ME USE YOUR CROATIAN LOGIC. IF A SERB KILLS YOUR FAMILY MEMBER BUT IS NEVER BROUGHT TO JUSTICE, NO CRIME TOOK PLACE RIGHT CC?

Please, with your intellectually superior Croat brain, answer the question.

Now this is funny...."How can you annex land that you've lived on for over 500 years?" - hahaha...hahahaha....so, any group of people that live within someone else's borders can assume that land as their own? quite honestly, you're a joke and you have little between the ears. what you're saying is that since some Serbs lived there we should all assume that land was theirs? hahaha....now I truly understand why you people are still living in the past!

njegos, you can argue all day and night, you're illogical! Croatia existed before and after Yugoslavia but your communist mentality does not allow you to see that. you can't tell the difference between a state/republic with defined borders and people that live within someone else's borders...with your logic, any group of people that live in someone else's country should annex, heck...they've lived there so why not? ti si cigan!

call me a racist if you'd like, I know you're a barbaric cave man who can't tell the difference between right and wrong! I'd love to see what a German would say to a French or Italian if they tried to annex a portion of Germany, lets see what would happen if Ukraine tried it to Russia, I'm laughing and at the same time baffled at how ignorant and illogical you are.

Serbs that live in Vukovar do not share the same classroom, I think Croats are far too tolerant and should banish them...PERIOD! try that in any other country in the world, see how welcome the people would be...

ok, so far you've not answered a single question nor have you explained why Serbs in Krajina had a right to claim it as their own...you deflect and point into the next direction...nice! its your mentality that holds your people back bre...PR Firms, Croatia broke International Law, Milosevic lead you but you claim he didn't, calling people Ustase as if its a bad thing...Cetniks are good, right?

I'm not quite sure why Croatia's history negatively affects you, are you jealous? The fact we exist since late in the 6th century should not affect you whatsoever...unless of course it bothers you that we have more success, but that's pretty easy to do!

dodging the topics are your specialty...you still have not addressed why its ok for Krajina Serbs to annex, you defer to Croatia broke International Law...when I say we did NOT and that this could have been handled on the International stage, you say the Germans, Americans and Brits are corrupt and side with us...but, you sheepishly and without a logical argument cannot explain why Serbs from Krajina could annex...you use the cave man version of "we were the for 500 years"...hahaha...this is your rational?

call me a racist, an Ustasa or whatever you'd like...I'm past the games of the 90's but you're obviously still not over the 40's...Jasenovac is you go to play when you have nothing else to debate!

you are not smart enough to debate intelligently, you ramble the same junk for years...soo predictable and soo irrelevant!

Dan is a perfect example of why I thought Croatia should not be allowed in the EU.

Croat graffiti was saying about 'Serbs hanging from the trees' before the troubles started.

These people who are being messed around by the Croat ethnic cleansing being demonstrated by their embassies in Serbia have residence in the EU.

The EU is failing in its duty if it does not investigate this and impose sanctions on Croatian for such misbehaviour which goes very precisely against the better principles of the EU.

From Dr. Love: "The serbs should have been forced to rebuild the areas in Croatia (and Bosnia and Kosovo) they destroyed. Rebuild the factories and workplaces they bombed, and then come with an apology to their neighbours whose loved ones they raped, tortured and killed."

Hey Dr. Love, how about an apology from Croatia and the Vatican for their role in slaughtering Serbs during WWII? Remember the official policy of the Croat gov't. was to kill 1/3 of the Serbs, convert 1/3 to Catholicism and exile 1/3. This was espoused by Mile Budak, Minister of Education in WWII Croatia and supported by the catholic church. Or is this just more 'history-twisting' by Serbs?

More from Dr. Love: "Act as normal people, contribute to society and treat people with respect = welcome. Mladic-lovers = piss off"

How about Croatia living up to their promises to the EU. Return of Serb property, reintegration of Serbs, paying pensions, respecting minority rights, living up to Cyrillic signs, prosecuting war criminals, etc. If you don't want people referring to you as Nazis, stop glorifying the Ustasha regime and act like a progressive country.

And your old tired attempt to equate Nedic with Ante Pavelivc has grown very old. Nedic was implemented by the Nazis and was a non-player in the war. Belgrade was bombed by the Germans. Croatia embraced the Nazis. The Ustasha were the 1st to establish concentration camps for children. Please, there is no comparison.

From Dr. Love: "How about a serb trying to argument without talking about WW2? You know very well that Ustasa had a small support in the croatian people...."

In true Croat cowardly fashion, you sidestep any mention of WWII. Then you go on to minimize the horrors that the Ustasha regime committed. Your research is severely lacking. Please read what Simon Wiesenthal, the foremost authority on Nazi criminals, had to say about the Ustasha. Then read Avo Manhattan's Vatican's Holocaust. And if that isn't enough for you, read Unholy Trinity by Loftus & Aarons. All non-Serbs by the way. And I could go on and on.

Then you say "If you're so interrested in WW2, why don't you talk about the Bleiburg massacre?"

What do you want me to say about Bleiburg? Thousands of Ustasha Croats were slaughtered by the communist Partizans whom you praised in your earlier post. Tito, a Croat, was the father of communism in Yugoslavia. Personally, I have no use for Partizans, Serb or Croat. All were communists and nearly as bad as the Ustasha. You seem to praise Croat commies and denounce Serb commies. That tells us a lot about your character. But then again, when you only have Commies or Nazis to choose from, I guess I understand your dilemma. What were your relatives, commies or fascists? Can't wait to hear back from you Dr. Love.

From Dr. Love: "I haven't minimized the horrors of Ustasa, just tried to open your propaganda-riddled mind..."

Interesting you should accuse me of propaganda. Explain why the Croat gov't. paid millions to US PR firms to manipulate the western press? Weren't the Croats the good guys, the victims? Here's another book to help fill your knowledge void: Media Cleansing by Peter Brock, an award winning journalist from the New York Times. If you want to know how propaganda was used in the war of the 90s, read this book.

More from Lover Boy: "But it was good to see that serb soldiers couldn't fight during Oluja. They're just good at killing civilians."

It is documented by international authorities that close to 2,000 Serbs were killed during Storm, the majority civilians. Many of those too old and sick to leave were found days later with their throats slit. And this is the greatest military victory in Croatian history. I guess after spending centuries as stable cleaners of your Austrian Hungarian masters, this is a victory to you.

"Waitng for your justification of the Srebrenica massacre..."

Many Serbs have been tried & sentenced for war crimes. Anyone who committed war crimes should be punished. That includes Nasir Oric, the Muslim paramilitary leader who bragged that he and his men set traps that beheaded several Serb civilians in the area surrounding Srebrenica prior to Mladic's arrival. Oric was aquitted after admitting that he killed civilians.

Cro Can, you're a piece of work. You said: "I don't really know why you repeat the same exact lying version of what happened before and after the breakup of communist Yugoslavia..."

Tell me where I'm lying:
- Croatia broke international law & the Yugoslav constitution with their premature secession
- After Tudjman was elected Serbs were fired from their jobs, their homes vandalized and many were killed before any war occurred
- Tudjman brought back Ustasha war criminals & renamed streets after them
Should Serbs have just accepted living in a hostile state overnight with no say whatsoever? A state that tried to exterminate Serbs less than 50 years earlier. Would you have done that CC?? Please answer.

More from Cro Can: "...you yourself admitted he was nationalistic and you also admitted he had his agenda."

Wrong. I never said Milosevic was nationalistic. He was a hard line communist. He didn't care about the Serbian people, only his own power.

From Cro Can: "...you continue down this path of Serb propaganda..."

Really? Please tell me who paid million to US PR firms to spread propaganda, the Serbs or Croats? Please answer.

Cro Can says: "...CrnaGora and Makedonija both pravoslavci nations wanted to separate..."

They separated with no bloodshed. Why couldn't Croatia?? Your countrymen wanted war and you got it. Stop crying about Vukovar. Live up to your promises to the EU. Take your own advice CC and accept reality and move on.

Cro Can - Now you've reverted to your old ways of name calling and using insults. This is a tactic used when debating someone who can't support their position factually and intellectually. Oh, but you are Croatian and therefore, are superior, right? Because, as you said, Serbs are 'backward,' right CC?

As expected, you've called me a liar, but have failed to point out where I was lying. Again, your emotional diatribe falls far short of any substantive facts.

Your comment about Serbia not being able to retain PR firms because they were the aggressors is comical. I'm not sure what you do for a living, if anything, but PR firms don't care about anything but money. The Serbs were naive and didn't feel they needed PR firms.

And this comment is even more laughable: "PR Teams are utilized to inform international community of what was happening."

HA HA HA!! Isn't that what the news outlets are tasked with doing? And they do it for free! James Harff, a high ranking executive with Ruder Finn said that their task was to creat an image of the Serbs that portrayed them as Nazis. This is what the Croatian gov't. paid for.

Again I ask, if other republics managed to secede with no bloodshed, why then couldn't Croatia?

With your superior Croatian intellect you should be able to answer such a simple question from a 'backward' Serb like me.

From CC: "Croatia legally and with the recognition of the majority of the world regained back their territory in Krajina"

Fact: Croatia broke international law & the Yugoslav constitution. Germany & the US did so also when they prematurely recognized Croatia. I can site the opinions of international legal scholars, but I'm afraid it would be above your level of comprehension. Oh, sorry, I forgot you are a member of the superior Croatian race. HA, HA!

Just because 2 major superpowers did something in your favor doesn't make it right. The US & Germany answer to no one, therefore, they play by their own rules.

"Serbs are barbaric people because thats how the media portrayed them from 91 - 95."

So whatever the media says is true? The more you talk the dumber you sound. The media gets much of their information from PR feeds. PR firms flood the media with stories before any research is done by the media. Many journaists are too lazy or too busy to do the research themselves, therefore they use these sensationalized and many times inaccurate stories from PR firms. This is how PR firms slant the media. This is a well-known tactic. And the Croat gov't. paid millions to PR firms to accomplish this.

"Drunk, barbaric and brutal criminals that ravaged Croatia and BiH!"

More insults from the CC the intellectually superior Croat who can't seem to get through a post without demonstrating his hatred for Serbs. Your Ustasha father & uncles taught you well I see.

Cro Can - If it was leagal (and it wasn't) for Croatia to break way from Yugoslavia, then why wasn't it legal for the Serbs of Krajina to break away from Croatia? Afterall, they have lived there for more than 500 years, long before the territory was ever Croatia. Your double standards are appalling.

Is it because your US & German masters said they couldn't? Afterall, according to you the US & Germany can do no wrong. Right CC?

you said: "CC, I know Serb families who had members killed before any war broke out. This happened on the heels of Tudjman's election. Address the issue of Serbs being fired, war criminals and Ustasha symbols reintroduced, homes vandalized. Are you telling me this didn't happen?"

our debate/arguement all started because I read you spewing the same ol "Croatia broke International Law" BS. if you are a Croat or a Slovene you would have known the writing was on the wall with Milosevic, if you were a Serb, you knew you were ok. Croatians wanted a better way...the Yugoslav economy was in a brutal state, Croats have always felt they could never get the better government jobs...many hated communism, Milosevic was a communist and a Serb...not a great recipe for us when you see him pre 1990 making clear statements...ie..."On 19 November 1988, he told a "Brotherhood and Unity" rally in Belgrade: "None should be surprised that Serbia raised its head because of Kosovo this summer. Kosovo is the pure centre of its history, culture and memory. Every nation has one love that warms its heart. For Serbia it is Kosovo".

there was tension, but why? How can you put all the responsibility on Croatia and Tudjman alone? in August 1990, armed groups of Serbs occupied the police station and stole arms in Knin. Croatians were not allowed to re-establish control of their own territory...you say this didn't contribute to the "war"? clear provocation of what Milosevic wanted...was that legal?

you have jumped forward to "the war" when I am saying Serbs, a Serb or many Serbs but not all Serbs caused this war. you cannot attempt to convince people that they started a war and then dismiss the obvious aggressive and provocative acts of Slobodan Milosevic, he, through his cabinet and with his politics, he didn't allow fairness in the government and he ensured control would remain from a Serb...deny that! In February 1990, Jovan Raskovic founded the Serb Democratic Partyin Knin. Its program stated that the "regional division of Croatia is outdated" and that it "does not correspond with the interest of Serb people".The party program endorsed redrawing regional and municipal lines to reflect the ethnic composition of the areas, and asserted the right of territories with a "special ethnic composition" to become autonomous. This echoed Milosevic position that internal Yugoslav borders should be redrawn to permit all Serbs to live in a single country.but we had nothing to fear? Croatia was going to be part of velika Srbija and we should be ok with that?

you ask why justice hasn't been served with regards to Oluja? is that the question? there are 2 sides to every story, we know Serbs left on their own accord fearing Croatian retribution for all the atrocities they committed, we also know you annexed that part (Krajina) illegally and without ever getting the necessary recognition as we did, some committed atrocities and should face justice, I agree with that!

Cro Can - You continually return to Milosevic and his divisive actions. I have always condemned Milosevic's actions whether they were before, during or after the war. Were there Serbs who supported Milosevic? Yes, many. But there was always a strong opposition to him as well.

You, on the other hand never seem to mention or criticize the divisive rhetoric from Tudjman, the father of your independence. In his book 'Wastelands of Historical Reality' he says that genocide is necessary. He publicly stated that he was glad his wife was neither a Serb nor a Jew. He minimized the number of Serbs killed at Jasenovac. He brought back Ustasha war criminals and named streets after them. Stipe Mesic, who you referenced, stated that in planning meetings for Operation Storm, Tudjman said that they should make it appear as if the Serbs never lived in Croatia. Heceg Bosna was his attempt at Velika Croatia. The ICTY found that Tudjman ran a criminal enterrprise after his death. Tell me CC, if you were a Serb and found yourself living in a new and hostile country overnight, would you have just accepted it?

But the real crux of the problem between Serbs and Croats are people like you who paint with a broad brush. Your statements that Serbs are 'drunken barbarians' and 'backward' tells me all I need to know about you. I shouldn't be surprised though. You were taught by Ustasha who fought for a regime whose stated goal was to exterminate all Serbs. You're a lost cause.

njegos- in order for us to come to any resolution, we should remain on topic...you're not able to address my comments about the breakup of Yugoslavia...you said "Croatia broke International Law" and I addressed that by providing you events and facts that prove they did NOT but that Serbs, with the support of Milosevic did break International Law...now you're going on about Tudjman's character?!?!

If Croatia broke International Law, you would have been able to address this in court, you can't...because no law was broken. Its how you see it, not how the entire world sees it.

I'm so tired of talking about the atrocities, really...but the experience was barbaric...it cannot be explained any differently.

to answer your question about Tudjman, he did a good thing for Croatians in helping get independence...was his book something I support, NO! were many of his comments extreme and provocative, YES! but going back to the initial discussion about Krajina, declaring it as the Serb Republic and overtaking the police station and taking the weapons...that is a clear act of provocation and a clear indication of Serbs provoking a war...where else on earth would that be accepted?

when a person says they condemn someone, in this case Milosevic, how could you support his decisions to clearly pave the way for Serbs to gain territory...and then expect the other republics to sit by and accept it. if you were against him, you would not make these excuses for his wrongdoings.

CC - You live in a fantasy world.

"If Croatia broke International Law, you would have been able to address this in court, you can't...because no law was broken."

Croatia broke the Helsinki Accords of 1975 and the Yugoslav constitution. But it doesn't matter when you have the support of the US, Germany & UK. The facts are the EC was against premature recognition of Slovenia & Croatia. Germany recognized them anyway but wanted EC support. Great Britain wanted out of the European Monetary System. Germany agreed to support Great Britain's move away from the EMS in return for support on Croatian & Slovenian recognition. The US was also initially against it, then jumped on the bandwagon of recognition. Brush up on your research.

You say I make excuses for Milosevic. Wrong, I don't. He can rot in hell for all I care. But I do support the right of Krajina Serbs to live on the land that has been theirs for more than 500 years without being fired from their jobs, their homes vandalized and killed just because they are Serbs.

I detest Milosevic, but the things he said that you pointed out pale in comparison to the racist remarks and actions by Tudjman, whom you clearly make excuses for.

Would there have been a war without early recognition? We'll never know. But premature recognition accelerated the situation. Tudjman knew that and charged ahead. You have Croatia but lost your presence in B-H. In our lifetimes Serb-Croat relations will never be good. Are you happy?

njegos- you said: "But it doesn't matter when you have the support of the US, Germany & UK" - this comment is rubbish! Law is law, if you were confident in your case, as many countries do, you would have brought it to court. You don't seem to have issues going to the Hague for other topics, if you have legal proof and a legal argument, nobody can refute that. you are acting like a victim when you were the aggressor...don't you see how silly you are? PR Team, But it doesn't matter when you have the support of the US, Germany & UK, what's next njegos...you have childish excuses for everything.

"But I do support the right of Krajina Serbs to live on the land that has been theirs for more than 500 years without being fired from their jobs, their homes vandalized and killed just because they are Serbs" - by support, you mean take arms and use violence?

you said: "You have Croatia but lost your presence in B-H" - we aren't playing a board game, this is reality and life. Croatia is Croatia just as BiH is their own country, I don't understand your argument other than for you to be insinuating you have more presence and land...well njegos...thats partly why there was a war in the first place, your greed is what inspires you...it will be the end of you as well!


"in our lifetimes Serb-Croat relations will never be good. Are you happy?" - it depends, do you care about the bad neighbor that constantly tries to blame you for his own issues?

CC - For a member of the superior Croatian race that you frequently remind us of, your writings suggest that you are anything but superior. Be careful the Croatian authorities are going to revoke your Aryran master race card if you keep writing such jibberish.

I'm not sure what world you live in, but it's not based in reality. Madeleine Albright admitted international law was broken when NATO bombed Serbia. Nasir Oric admitted to beheading Serb civilians but was acquitted by the Hague. Countless legal scholars have questioned the validity and fairness of the Hague. But you, Mr. Croatian Canadian, descendant of Ustasha Nazis, swear by it. That's a ringing endorsement!

You never answered my question about if someone killed a family member of yours but was never brought to justice, is that person innocent? That seems to be your rational on the 2,000 Serbs killed during Storm, right? No one was brought to justice, so according to you, no crime was committed. More Croatian logic. And you call yourself superior. Again, I'm not sure what you do for a living, but I am sure you're not in the legal profession. And I'm beginning to think that you must not have to think for a living either.

why do you inflate numbers for everything? you said: "That seems to be your rational on the 2,000 Serbs killed during Storm, right"?

From the Human Rights web page...this is not Croatian, this is a 3rd Party: The offensive, which lasted a mere thirty-six hours, resulted in the death of an estimated 526 Serbs, 116 of whom were reportedly civilians.

to answer your question about whether those people or persons were innocent, NO...were they unjustifiably seeking revenge for the barbaric Serbs invading Croatian towns and cities across Croatia, YES! you can chalk this revenge to your Milosevic policies...Serbs were aggressors in Croatia, they destroyed far more than what they received and they collaborated to seek a Greater Serbia...evident-ally, they lost not only their cause, but there lives as well!

I really do find it interesting that you are looking at rights for people who were clearly wrong. you started a war, you claimed Krajina part of Serbia and when you lost the war and Krajina was taken back, you cower, whine and cry as if you are the victim...is that what they teach you in Serbian school?

stay in Serbia, when have you ever heard of Croatians being unpeaceful...and then ask yourself how often Serbia has issues with its neighbors? Crna Gora cannot handle dealing with you, BiH can't either, Macedonia, Slovenia was happy to get rid of you, Croatia may be your only hope but we don't want you to impose you ways in Croatia!

The day a population of crnogorci look to annex and make their own state within Serbia will be their last day on earth. You're as dumb as it gets....but this doesn't surprise me!

Try to take a portion or Serbian land as they did, see what happens....you're clueless njegos, you don't have a clue what you're saying and I stand by those in Vukovar 100%!

Those kids don't even share the same classroom, Serbs in their classes Croats in their own....they should ban cirilica altogether and kick those that don't want to he Hrvati out, one by one!

CC: Once again you've avoided answering my questions. Is that superior Croat intellect faltering? I really wasn't tring to stump you. I was just trying to have a dialogue with you. But clearly, the dialogue is only one way with you.

"The day a population of crnogorci look to annex and make their own state within Serbia will be their last day on earth."

How can you annex land that you've lived on for over 500 years? So according to your logic, Croatia annexed their state within Yugoslavia, a clear violation of international law. But that's OK, right? BTW, the Crnogorci never tried to exterminate the Serbs the way the Croats did. Wasn't it you who said recently that Croats were peaceful people? Your history flies in the face of your words.

"Try to take a portion or Serbian land as they did"

Again, you're referring to land Serbs have lived on for centuries. Your double standards are appalling.

"I stand by those in Vukovar 100%!"

Of course you do. You were brought up and taught by Ustasha. It's no surprise you hate Serbs and refer to us as "barbaric and backward." The more you write the more your true colors are shown.

"they should ban cirilica altogether and kick those that don't want to he Hrvati out, one by one!"

You are an intolerant racist. Your duplicitous and vitriolic comments paint the picture of an empty person. Keep telling yourself you're better than everyone else...one day you might even believe it.

From Ustasha Boy: "Croatia existed before and after Yugoslavia but your communist mentality does not allow you to see that."

Balkan History 101: Serbs were invited to settle in the Krajina more than 500 years ago by the A-H Empire in return for their military service. At that time the Croats were cleaning the stables for A-H.

I also find it interesting that you accuse me of having a communist mentality, yet you acknowledge Croatia's communist established borders. Remember it was Tito, a Croat, who was the father of communism in Yugoslavia who established Croatia's present day borders.

More racial insults from Ustasha Boy: "ti si cigan!"

The more you say, the more your Ustasha upbringing shows. Now you've referred to gypsies pejoratively. This doesn't surprise me though. Your relatives fought or a regime that tried to exterminate gypsies in Croatia. I can only imagine what your attitude is toward Jews.

Normally, your brand of bigotry is dangerous. But you're not smart enough to be dangerous. I find your prehistoric views to be quite entertaining. Keep telling yourself that Croats are superior. One day you might even believe it. You are a sad and pathetic person, but more than anything, you are a joke!

Ustasha Boy: I've answered all of your questions. Just because you're not intelligent enough to understand them is your problem, not mine. Allow me to simplify this for you. Serbs were invited to the Karajina long before Croatia's present day borders existed. In fact, Croatia was not even a acountry then, you were vassels of the A-H Empire for 900 years. When your Nazi friends occupied Yugoslavia during WWII, the Independent State of Croatia was created and included large parts of B-H. We all know about the Ustasha killing spree tha ensued with the Croats trying to exterminate the Serbs. After the war Tito (one of your own) created administrative / provincial boundaries which were later expanded by Tito.

While Tito supressed nationalism, but the memory of the horrors inflicted on the Serbs by the Ustasha in WWII were still very alive. When Tudjman was elected in 1990, Ustasha symbols were brought back, war criminals brought back, streets were named after war criminals. Tudjman made many racist comments in public. What would have happened if Germany began glorifying the Nazis again CC? Please answer. Croats began to persecute Serbs again and you seem to think the Serbs should have just been happy to live in Croatia, right? You are a moron!

I've explained the geopolitical events surrounding the premature recognition, but that clearly went right over your head. No surprise. (More coming)

(Part 2)

Simply put, Croatia was created with no regard to international law nor the Yugoslav constitution. If Croatia had the right to break away from Yugoslavia, then the Serbs should have the right to break away from Croatia. The Serbs never chose to live inside of Croatia. When they settled there, it was the A-H Empire, not Croatia. Why should the Serbs be forced to live inside of a state that tried to exterminate them less then 50 years earlier? Answer please CC.

Your logic suggests that if the majority of the people living in Texas decided to separate, it should be allowed even if they break the US constitution, right?

Your double standards have piled up to the point of being absurd. And for the 5th time please answer: If someone kills a family memmber of yours but is never brought to justice, is that person guilty of a crime? I know you can't justify your earlier statement that no crimes were committed during Storm because no one was ever convicted. This demonstrates your bigotry and your stupidity.

I really don't expect you to answer the question because to do so would be for you to admit that you were wrong. It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong and you are anything but a big man. Run along now, I hear your father calling. It's time for your daily Ustasha hisory revision lesson.

From Ustasha Boy: "I'm not quite sure why Croatia's history negatively affects you, are you jealous? The fact we exist since late in the 6th century should not affect you whatsoever...unless of course it bothers you that we have more success"

HA,HA,HA,HA! You were stable cleaners for the Austro Hungarians for 900 years. You weren't even a country until 1991! You're right, you have a long history...as serfs. As a country, you have no history. Your biggest military victory was against unarmed civilians during Storm. And that was aided by a superpower!

During WWI you fought with your occupiers then begged the Serbs to join the south slav state after you lost the war. During WWII you embraced the Nazis and tried to exterminate Serbs, Jews & gypsies. You were the first to establish concentration camps for children.

Yes, you do have quite a history...a shameful history. And believe me, no one is jealous of you.

Ustasha Boy: Again you avoid answering my questions. No surprise there. This cowardly pattern of you evading my questions is something I've come to expect.

From Ustasha Boy: "Croatia owned that land (Kingdom of Croatia) even during the period of the Habsburg's."

HA,HA,HA! Does this mean Croatia was a kingdom inside of a kingdom? Maybe they were kingdom 1.2. HA, HA! Some kingdom, some history. You were vassals! The history books in the US refer to the A-H Empire, the kingdom of Croatia isn't even a footnote. HA, HA! Good one Ustasha Boy! And for you to compare Croats under the Hapsbugs to the Serbs under the Turks further demonstrates your stupidity. The Serbs reisted the Turks. Read up on the 1st Serbian uprising of 1804, then the 2nd in 1815 and finally 1875 when they pushed them out of Serb lands. The Croats on the other hand, never resisted your occupiers. You even fought with them in WWI. When you lost the war, you crawled to the Serbs asking to join the South Slav state. Did your Ustasha daddy & uncles forget that part of the history lesson?

And Croatia didn't own Serb lands, they were given to Serbs by your masters in return for military service. Funny, they didn't have enough confidence in your ability to defend the kingdom.

Oh boy, your posts are always good for a laugh, but this time you've really got me rolling. HA, HA. What will you come up with next? Anxiously waiting.

From CC: why do you inflate numbers for everything? you said: "That seems to be your rational on the 2,000 Serbs killed during Storm, right"?

Veritas puts the number at 1,719 (sorry, I rounded up), 887 of whom were civilians.

The European Union reported "Evidence of atrocities continues to emerge. The corpses are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated...Serb lands continue to be torched and looted." And you call Serbs barbaric!

"when have you ever heard of Croatians being unpeaceful"

Are you serious? The Ustasha's stated goal was to exterminate the Serbs! Is that your idea of peaceful? Your Ustasha realtives left that part out of your history lesson?

"ask yourself how often Serbia has issues with its neighbors? Crna Gora cannot handle dealing with you"

More ridiculous statements from Ustasha Boy. FYI, I am Montenegrin and many, many Montenegrins live in Serbia without any issues. The majority of Serbs from Serbia vacation on the Montenegrin coast. Ask yourself why Croatia is the most homogeneous country in Europe. Ask yourself why Serbia has a much larger minority population than Croatia. Ask yourself why your former allies, live on one side of Mostar and Croats on the other. They want nothing to do with you.

If someone kills your family member and is never brought to justice, was a crime committed? 3rd time I've asked this question. Where's that superior Croat intellect?

Ustasha Boy, I see you've changed your screen name to Dan. You're still Ustasha Boy to me.

Regarding your lame attempt to finally answer my question, allow me to phrase it this way which I did a long time ago, but here goes again: You claim that no crimes were committed by Croats during Storm because no one was brought to justice. The international community has confirmed that close to 2,000 Serbs were killed, the majority of whom were civilians. If these people were fleeing as you state, and the majority of those killed were civilians as the international community has confirmed, DID A CRIME TAKE PLACE?

Earlier you said no crimes occurred because no one was convicted. So I ask again, if someone kills a family member of yours but is never brought to justice, did a crime occur? Please answer.

Please try not to take 2 months to answer this time. That superior Croat brain that you keep telling me about should be able to handle such a simple question. LOL!

So what.... Now Croatia is the country of your dreams but in 1991 it was the devil. You maggots wanted a Sao Krajina and now that its defunct and Serbia proper has no need for you, you feell the need to return to Lijepa Nasa like nothing ever happend. You people don't even hold a 'Domovnica' so how can you return when your considered an illegal alien. Stay the F**K where you are as all you can do is bring an already drain on the government. F**king minorities think they can do as they please.

The exact same measure should be applied to croats living in serbia.

an eye for an eye - this is the only true form of justice

The Serbs wanted to carve up and hold onto 35% of Croatia. With the backing of the Yugoslav army and the "Paramilitary - Murders, Rapists & Looters" they ransacked and wreaked havoc for 2 to 3 years. The general Serb public supported and went all with the "Greater Serbia Plan".

Croatia re-armed and defeated the Serbs "Operation Storm" in 2 days and re-captured Croatian territory. The Serbs left Croatia by order of their own Serbian leaders. The general Serb population left knowing they had blood on their hands during the pillaging of Croat land and property.

Now that Serbia's economy is in a shambles, some Serbs want to come back to Croatia like nothing happened.

Well unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

The Serbs got what the deserved, good riddance.

Thanks

Dan

From Dan: "The Serbs wanted to carve up and hold onto 35% of Croatia. With the backing of the Yugoslav army and the "Paramilitary - Murders, Rapists & Looters" they ransacked and wreaked havoc for 2 to 3 years. The general Serb public supported and went all with the "Greater Serbia Plan".

This sounds like propaganda written by the well-paid PR firms that the Croat gov't. spent millions on. Please Dan, if the Serbs wanted a Greater Serbia as you say, why did they wait until Croatia illegally declared independence? Your arguement is baseless. Serbs in Krajina were living there long before it was ever Croatia, invited by the A-H Empire to defend your ancestors. After the last independent Croatia (1941) where Croats tried to exterminate the Serbs, why in the world would Serbs want to live inside of the illegally created new Croatia? Ask yourself that Dan. This was the Greater Croatia of your ancestors dreams. Serbs wanted nothing to do with it the 2nd time around.


From Dan: "Now that Serbia's economy is in a shambles, some Serbs want to come back to Croatia like nothing happened."

Wrong again dan. Serbs only want to return to the land that they've owned for over 500 years. It's certainly not the crumbling Croat economy where 30% of people undr 30 are unemployeed, inflation is skyrocketing and corruption is flourishing. Western companies are reluctant to invest there because of the nationaistic right wingers seem to run the country as opposed to the elected gov't.

There once was a man named Dan. He belonged to a most vicious clan. Hrvati they called themselves many insane. They were so arrogant and not a little vain. Land is all ours they liked to exclaim. Knowing full well they were just being a pain. You can't have what's not yours even if you threw us out.( Or did you say we left, voluntarily?).The Serbs are coming back you be in no doubt..

From Dan: "The Serb leaders realized "total and utter defeat" during Operation Storm, the same Serb leaders gave orders and instructions to the general Serb population to leave "mass exodus" Croatia and to go to areas of Bosnia, Kosovo and Rump Serbia to carry on with their "Greater Serbia - Plan B" of ethnic cleansing which the Serbs are very well known for."

Dan - Let's assume you're right and Serbs fled based on orders from Serb leaders. Please then explain why Croats kllled close to 2,000 people, the vast mojority of whom were elderly, women & children? They were leaving on their own, right? Great military victory Dan. You should be very proud of your countrymen.

More from Dan: "As it turned out "Plan B" didn't turn that much better after that the Serbs then lost the Bosnian War..."

Time for a reality check Danny. Serbs are 31% of the population and control 49% of the land in B-H. I'd say that's a clear victory. On the other hand, the Croat population has gone from 24% population to approx. 11% in B-H. And they can't get along with their former allies, the Muslims, in their dysfunctional Federation. Remember Herceg Bosna Dan? This was Tudjman's attempt at forming a Greater Croatia which ended in complete and utter failure. Make no mistake about it, the Croats were the biggest losers in B-H. The irony is this is where the Ustasha state began and soon if the trend continues, there will be no trace left of Croats there. Too bad.

Bam Bam using expletives with gay abandon does nothing for your argument it just shows how narrow-minded and uneducated you are. My advice is go crawl back into the hole you inconsiderately emerged from..

Maybe a little less hate and ignorance, and more forgiveness and understanding is what is required - on all sides.

Just a thought
(truthiness, 22 August 2014 00:20)
===========================
Albanians need to hear this. They will because they are always here in force.

Dan is a perfect example of why I thought Croatia should not be allowed in the EU.

Croat graffiti was saying about 'Serbs hanging from the trees' before the troubles started.

These people who are being messed around by the Croat ethnic cleansing being demonstrated by their embassies in Serbia have residence in the EU.

The EU is failing in its duty if it does not investigate this and impose sanctions on Croatian for such misbehaviour which goes very precisely against the better principles of the EU.

According to Moglo bi bit Serbs: "...killed two hundred thousand Bosnians,...killed fifty thousand Croats,... killed fifty thousand Albanian Kosovars."

Please provide your sources for your ridicuously inflated numbers of those killed. No published statistics of those killed from any reliable international source comes close to the fabricated numbers you've spewed. Unless of course, you're using the statistics from the highly paid PR firms that the Croat gov't. hired to manipulate the western press.

Here are a few facts for you that cannot be disputed:
- Croatia broke international law and the Yugoslav constitution by declaring independence long before any war broke out
- In anticipation of their secession, Croats armed themselves heavily knowing their would be a war
- After Tudjman became President Serbs were fired from their jobs, their homes were vandalized and many were killed long before any war
- The Tudjman gov't. invited back Ustasha war criminals (Dinko Sakic) commander of Jasenovac where more than 750,000 Serbs were slaughtered. Many sources confirm this including Vatican's Holocaust, Unholy Trinity & The Rape of Serbia, all written by non-Serbs. To this day the Croat gov't hasn't apologized but instead minimizes these atrocities.

- Croatia wanted war and you got it. Wars are ugly. Don't cry now and ask for apologies over something you clearly began.

Ustasha Boy: Again you avoid answering my questions. No surprise there. This cowardly pattern of you evading my questions is something I've come to expect.

From Ustasha Boy: "Croatia owned that land (Kingdom of Croatia) even during the period of the Habsburg's."

HA,HA,HA! Does this mean Croatia was a kingdom inside of a kingdom? Maybe they were kingdom 1.2. HA, HA! Some kingdom, some history. You were vassals! The history books in the US refer to the A-H Empire, the kingdom of Croatia isn't even a footnote. HA, HA! Good one Ustasha Boy! And for you to compare Croats under the Hapsbugs to the Serbs under the Turks further demonstrates your stupidity. The Serbs reisted the Turks. Read up on the 1st Serbian uprising of 1804, then the 2nd in 1815 and finally 1875 when they pushed them out of Serb lands. The Croats on the other hand, never resisted your occupiers. You even fought with them in WWI. When you lost the war, you crawled to the Serbs asking to join the South Slav state. Did your Ustasha daddy & uncles forget that part of the history lesson?

And Croatia didn't own Serb lands, they were given to Serbs by your masters in return for military service. Funny, they didn't have enough confidence in your ability to defend the kingdom.

Oh boy, your posts are always good for a laugh, but this time you've really got me rolling. HA, HA. What will you come up with next? Anxiously waiting.

From Dr. Love: "The serbs should have been forced to rebuild the areas in Croatia (and Bosnia and Kosovo) they destroyed. Rebuild the factories and workplaces they bombed, and then come with an apology to their neighbours whose loved ones they raped, tortured and killed."

Hey Dr. Love, how about an apology from Croatia and the Vatican for their role in slaughtering Serbs during WWII? Remember the official policy of the Croat gov't. was to kill 1/3 of the Serbs, convert 1/3 to Catholicism and exile 1/3. This was espoused by Mile Budak, Minister of Education in WWII Croatia and supported by the catholic church. Or is this just more 'history-twisting' by Serbs?

More from Dr. Love: "Act as normal people, contribute to society and treat people with respect = welcome. Mladic-lovers = piss off"

How about Croatia living up to their promises to the EU. Return of Serb property, reintegration of Serbs, paying pensions, respecting minority rights, living up to Cyrillic signs, prosecuting war criminals, etc. If you don't want people referring to you as Nazis, stop glorifying the Ustasha regime and act like a progressive country.

And your old tired attempt to equate Nedic with Ante Pavelivc has grown very old. Nedic was implemented by the Nazis and was a non-player in the war. Belgrade was bombed by the Germans. Croatia embraced the Nazis. The Ustasha were the 1st to establish concentration camps for children. Please, there is no comparison.

From Dr. Love: "I haven't minimized the horrors of Ustasa, just tried to open your propaganda-riddled mind..."

Interesting you should accuse me of propaganda. Explain why the Croat gov't. paid millions to US PR firms to manipulate the western press? Weren't the Croats the good guys, the victims? Here's another book to help fill your knowledge void: Media Cleansing by Peter Brock, an award winning journalist from the New York Times. If you want to know how propaganda was used in the war of the 90s, read this book.

More from Lover Boy: "But it was good to see that serb soldiers couldn't fight during Oluja. They're just good at killing civilians."

It is documented by international authorities that close to 2,000 Serbs were killed during Storm, the majority civilians. Many of those too old and sick to leave were found days later with their throats slit. And this is the greatest military victory in Croatian history. I guess after spending centuries as stable cleaners of your Austrian Hungarian masters, this is a victory to you.

"Waitng for your justification of the Srebrenica massacre..."

Many Serbs have been tried & sentenced for war crimes. Anyone who committed war crimes should be punished. That includes Nasir Oric, the Muslim paramilitary leader who bragged that he and his men set traps that beheaded several Serb civilians in the area surrounding Srebrenica prior to Mladic's arrival. Oric was aquitted after admitting that he killed civilians.

Cro Can - Now you've reverted to your old ways of name calling and using insults. This is a tactic used when debating someone who can't support their position factually and intellectually. Oh, but you are Croatian and therefore, are superior, right? Because, as you said, Serbs are 'backward,' right CC?

As expected, you've called me a liar, but have failed to point out where I was lying. Again, your emotional diatribe falls far short of any substantive facts.

Your comment about Serbia not being able to retain PR firms because they were the aggressors is comical. I'm not sure what you do for a living, if anything, but PR firms don't care about anything but money. The Serbs were naive and didn't feel they needed PR firms.

And this comment is even more laughable: "PR Teams are utilized to inform international community of what was happening."

HA HA HA!! Isn't that what the news outlets are tasked with doing? And they do it for free! James Harff, a high ranking executive with Ruder Finn said that their task was to creat an image of the Serbs that portrayed them as Nazis. This is what the Croatian gov't. paid for.

Again I ask, if other republics managed to secede with no bloodshed, why then couldn't Croatia?

With your superior Croatian intellect you should be able to answer such a simple question from a 'backward' Serb like me.

Why do they want to return to Croatia?
Reasons they left are NOW not justified?
First they should and in writing submit apologies for crimes they have committed and dishonour fascist leaders they have followed.

Dear RSK.....

The Serb leaders realized "total and utter defeat" during Operation Storm, the same Serb leaders gave orders and instructions to the general Serb population to leave "mass exodus" Croatia and to go to areas of Bosnia, Kosovo and Rump Serbia to carry on with their "Greater Serbia - Plan B" of ethnic cleansing which the Serbs are very well known for.

The Serbs effectively ethnic cleansed themselves from Croatia after being humiliated outright on the battlefields of Croatia. You (RSK) used the word "voluntarily" ???? there is no such word in my previous post.

But as you know the Serb leaders "ordered" the general Serb population to flee, so that they could plunder other neighbouring countries.

As it turned out "Plan B" didn't turn that much better after that the Serbs then lost the Bosnian War and then the Kosovo War and ended up with bringing upon Serbia proper the bombs of NATO.

In the end, the Serbs betrayed themselves and turned over to the Hague ALL of their leaders which they blindly followed for over a decade......Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic, Seselj, etc etc etc etc..............

I guess the Serbs will now celebrate these defeats like they celebrate their defeat in Kosovo for over 600 years ago.

Well that is just fine, because I am sure Croatia will celebrate Operation Storm for centuries to come.
And the Serbs are more than welcome to celebrate Operation Storm as well !!!

Thanks

Dan

From Dr. Love: "How about a serb trying to argument without talking about WW2? You know very well that Ustasa had a small support in the croatian people...."

In true Croat cowardly fashion, you sidestep any mention of WWII. Then you go on to minimize the horrors that the Ustasha regime committed. Your research is severely lacking. Please read what Simon Wiesenthal, the foremost authority on Nazi criminals, had to say about the Ustasha. Then read Avo Manhattan's Vatican's Holocaust. And if that isn't enough for you, read Unholy Trinity by Loftus & Aarons. All non-Serbs by the way. And I could go on and on.

Then you say "If you're so interrested in WW2, why don't you talk about the Bleiburg massacre?"

What do you want me to say about Bleiburg? Thousands of Ustasha Croats were slaughtered by the communist Partizans whom you praised in your earlier post. Tito, a Croat, was the father of communism in Yugoslavia. Personally, I have no use for Partizans, Serb or Croat. All were communists and nearly as bad as the Ustasha. You seem to praise Croat commies and denounce Serb commies. That tells us a lot about your character. But then again, when you only have Commies or Nazis to choose from, I guess I understand your dilemma. What were your relatives, commies or fascists? Can't wait to hear back from you Dr. Love.

Cro Can, you're a piece of work. You said: "I don't really know why you repeat the same exact lying version of what happened before and after the breakup of communist Yugoslavia..."

Tell me where I'm lying:
- Croatia broke international law & the Yugoslav constitution with their premature secession
- After Tudjman was elected Serbs were fired from their jobs, their homes vandalized and many were killed before any war occurred
- Tudjman brought back Ustasha war criminals & renamed streets after them
Should Serbs have just accepted living in a hostile state overnight with no say whatsoever? A state that tried to exterminate Serbs less than 50 years earlier. Would you have done that CC?? Please answer.

More from Cro Can: "...you yourself admitted he was nationalistic and you also admitted he had his agenda."

Wrong. I never said Milosevic was nationalistic. He was a hard line communist. He didn't care about the Serbian people, only his own power.

From Cro Can: "...you continue down this path of Serb propaganda..."

Really? Please tell me who paid million to US PR firms to spread propaganda, the Serbs or Croats? Please answer.

Cro Can says: "...CrnaGora and Makedonija both pravoslavci nations wanted to separate..."

They separated with no bloodshed. Why couldn't Croatia?? Your countrymen wanted war and you got it. Stop crying about Vukovar. Live up to your promises to the EU. Take your own advice CC and accept reality and move on.

njegos wrote; "In true Croat cowardly fashion, you sidestep any mention of WWII. Then you go on to minimize the horrors that the Ustasha regime committed."

I sidestep any mention of WW2? Read again. Slowly. Concentrate...
The fact is that you sidestep any mention of the acts by serbs in the 90ies. That says a lot of your (lack of) character.

I haven't minimized the horrors of Ustasa, just tried to open your propaganda-riddled mind. My point is that many serbs can not discuss the war from the 90ies witout starting to justify their genocide with what happened during WW2. And you are a prize example of such a serb.

What's fascinating about your WW2 history knowledge (or rather, selective knowledge), is that you're indifferent to the massacres committed by cetniks.

And for the record, I hate commies. serb commies, Croat commies, any communist. I mentioned partisans, because they were anti fascist (and mostly croats in the beginning). So no, propaganda-boy, not all Croats were "nazis".

And the Bleiburg massacre involved Ustase, but also their families (that means women and children), and also Croats fleeing from a communist regime.
But it was good to see that serb soldiers couldn't fight during Oluja. They're just good at killing civilians.

Waitng for your justification of the Srebrenica massacre... Did the 14 year old muslim boys kill serbs during WW2?

From CC: why do you inflate numbers for everything? you said: "That seems to be your rational on the 2,000 Serbs killed during Storm, right"?

Veritas puts the number at 1,719 (sorry, I rounded up), 887 of whom were civilians.

The European Union reported "Evidence of atrocities continues to emerge. The corpses are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated...Serb lands continue to be torched and looted." And you call Serbs barbaric!

"when have you ever heard of Croatians being unpeaceful"

Are you serious? The Ustasha's stated goal was to exterminate the Serbs! Is that your idea of peaceful? Your Ustasha realtives left that part out of your history lesson?

"ask yourself how often Serbia has issues with its neighbors? Crna Gora cannot handle dealing with you"

More ridiculous statements from Ustasha Boy. FYI, I am Montenegrin and many, many Montenegrins live in Serbia without any issues. The majority of Serbs from Serbia vacation on the Montenegrin coast. Ask yourself why Croatia is the most homogeneous country in Europe. Ask yourself why Serbia has a much larger minority population than Croatia. Ask yourself why your former allies, live on one side of Mostar and Croats on the other. They want nothing to do with you.

If someone kills your family member and is never brought to justice, was a crime committed? 3rd time I've asked this question. Where's that superior Croat intellect?

Ustasha Boy: I've answered all of your questions. Just because you're not intelligent enough to understand them is your problem, not mine. Allow me to simplify this for you. Serbs were invited to the Karajina long before Croatia's present day borders existed. In fact, Croatia was not even a acountry then, you were vassels of the A-H Empire for 900 years. When your Nazi friends occupied Yugoslavia during WWII, the Independent State of Croatia was created and included large parts of B-H. We all know about the Ustasha killing spree tha ensued with the Croats trying to exterminate the Serbs. After the war Tito (one of your own) created administrative / provincial boundaries which were later expanded by Tito.

While Tito supressed nationalism, but the memory of the horrors inflicted on the Serbs by the Ustasha in WWII were still very alive. When Tudjman was elected in 1990, Ustasha symbols were brought back, war criminals brought back, streets were named after war criminals. Tudjman made many racist comments in public. What would have happened if Germany began glorifying the Nazis again CC? Please answer. Croats began to persecute Serbs again and you seem to think the Serbs should have just been happy to live in Croatia, right? You are a moron!

I've explained the geopolitical events surrounding the premature recognition, but that clearly went right over your head. No surprise. (More coming)

(Part 2)

Simply put, Croatia was created with no regard to international law nor the Yugoslav constitution. If Croatia had the right to break away from Yugoslavia, then the Serbs should have the right to break away from Croatia. The Serbs never chose to live inside of Croatia. When they settled there, it was the A-H Empire, not Croatia. Why should the Serbs be forced to live inside of a state that tried to exterminate them less then 50 years earlier? Answer please CC.

Your logic suggests that if the majority of the people living in Texas decided to separate, it should be allowed even if they break the US constitution, right?

Your double standards have piled up to the point of being absurd. And for the 5th time please answer: If someone kills a family memmber of yours but is never brought to justice, is that person guilty of a crime? I know you can't justify your earlier statement that no crimes were committed during Storm because no one was ever convicted. This demonstrates your bigotry and your stupidity.

I really don't expect you to answer the question because to do so would be for you to admit that you were wrong. It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong and you are anything but a big man. Run along now, I hear your father calling. It's time for your daily Ustasha hisory revision lesson.

From Ustasha Boy: "I'm not quite sure why Croatia's history negatively affects you, are you jealous? The fact we exist since late in the 6th century should not affect you whatsoever...unless of course it bothers you that we have more success"

HA,HA,HA,HA! You were stable cleaners for the Austro Hungarians for 900 years. You weren't even a country until 1991! You're right, you have a long history...as serfs. As a country, you have no history. Your biggest military victory was against unarmed civilians during Storm. And that was aided by a superpower!

During WWI you fought with your occupiers then begged the Serbs to join the south slav state after you lost the war. During WWII you embraced the Nazis and tried to exterminate Serbs, Jews & gypsies. You were the first to establish concentration camps for children.

Yes, you do have quite a history...a shameful history. And believe me, no one is jealous of you.

The exact same measure should be applied to croats living in serbia.

an eye for an eye - this is the only true form of justice
(scepticism, 21 August 2014 10:53)

If we accepted that logic then , as the old saying goes, "the entire world would be blind and toothless"

Maybe a little less hate and ignorance, and more forgiveness and understanding is what is required - on all sides.

Just a thought

Dear Bob,

The Serbs started and instigated ALL the wars in the former Yugoslavia and they lost them all.

The Serbs ethnically cleansed themselves from Croatia. The aggressor Serbia, can not play the "victim card", the Serbs gambled and they lost, it is as simple as that.

Suck it up, apologize for the Serbian crimes and get on with life, history can not and will not be rewritten.

Thanks

Dan

The serbs should have been forced to rebuild the areas in Croatia (and Bosnia and Kosovo) they destroyed. Rebuild the factories and workplaces they bombed, and then come with an apology to their neighbours whose loved ones they raped, tortured and killed.

Not go around whining and playing the victim card, and wonder why there's no jobs.

Stop living in a fantasy world where all croats are/were nazis, thinking it's OK to kill and rape kids because something your grandfathers told you about WW2 (and considering serb history-twisting traditions, didn't happen). Croats had nazi collaborators, France, Norway, Ukraine, Italy etc as well. And serbia too. Nedic, anyone? First juden-frei city in Europe, anyone?

Act as normal people, contribute to society and treat people with respect = welcome. Mladic-lovers = piss off

From CC: "Croatia legally and with the recognition of the majority of the world regained back their territory in Krajina"

Fact: Croatia broke international law & the Yugoslav constitution. Germany & the US did so also when they prematurely recognized Croatia. I can site the opinions of international legal scholars, but I'm afraid it would be above your level of comprehension. Oh, sorry, I forgot you are a member of the superior Croatian race. HA, HA!

Just because 2 major superpowers did something in your favor doesn't make it right. The US & Germany answer to no one, therefore, they play by their own rules.

"Serbs are barbaric people because thats how the media portrayed them from 91 - 95."

So whatever the media says is true? The more you talk the dumber you sound. The media gets much of their information from PR feeds. PR firms flood the media with stories before any research is done by the media. Many journaists are too lazy or too busy to do the research themselves, therefore they use these sensationalized and many times inaccurate stories from PR firms. This is how PR firms slant the media. This is a well-known tactic. And the Croat gov't. paid millions to PR firms to accomplish this.

"Drunk, barbaric and brutal criminals that ravaged Croatia and BiH!"

More insults from the CC the intellectually superior Croat who can't seem to get through a post without demonstrating his hatred for Serbs. Your Ustasha father & uncles taught you well I see.

Cro Can - If it was leagal (and it wasn't) for Croatia to break way from Yugoslavia, then why wasn't it legal for the Serbs of Krajina to break away from Croatia? Afterall, they have lived there for more than 500 years, long before the territory was ever Croatia. Your double standards are appalling.

Is it because your US & German masters said they couldn't? Afterall, according to you the US & Germany can do no wrong. Right CC?

you said: "CC, I know Serb families who had members killed before any war broke out. This happened on the heels of Tudjman's election. Address the issue of Serbs being fired, war criminals and Ustasha symbols reintroduced, homes vandalized. Are you telling me this didn't happen?"

our debate/arguement all started because I read you spewing the same ol "Croatia broke International Law" BS. if you are a Croat or a Slovene you would have known the writing was on the wall with Milosevic, if you were a Serb, you knew you were ok. Croatians wanted a better way...the Yugoslav economy was in a brutal state, Croats have always felt they could never get the better government jobs...many hated communism, Milosevic was a communist and a Serb...not a great recipe for us when you see him pre 1990 making clear statements...ie..."On 19 November 1988, he told a "Brotherhood and Unity" rally in Belgrade: "None should be surprised that Serbia raised its head because of Kosovo this summer. Kosovo is the pure centre of its history, culture and memory. Every nation has one love that warms its heart. For Serbia it is Kosovo".

there was tension, but why? How can you put all the responsibility on Croatia and Tudjman alone? in August 1990, armed groups of Serbs occupied the police station and stole arms in Knin. Croatians were not allowed to re-establish control of their own territory...you say this didn't contribute to the "war"? clear provocation of what Milosevic wanted...was that legal?

Cro Can - I'm going use caps and type real slow so that maybe you will understand the question this time. Here goes:

LET ME USE YOUR CROATIAN LOGIC. IF A SERB KILLS YOUR FAMILY MEMBER BUT IS NEVER BROUGHT TO JUSTICE, NO CRIME TOOK PLACE RIGHT CC?

Please, with your intellectually superior Croat brain, answer the question.

CC: Once again you've avoided answering my questions. Is that superior Croat intellect faltering? I really wasn't tring to stump you. I was just trying to have a dialogue with you. But clearly, the dialogue is only one way with you.

"The day a population of crnogorci look to annex and make their own state within Serbia will be their last day on earth."

How can you annex land that you've lived on for over 500 years? So according to your logic, Croatia annexed their state within Yugoslavia, a clear violation of international law. But that's OK, right? BTW, the Crnogorci never tried to exterminate the Serbs the way the Croats did. Wasn't it you who said recently that Croats were peaceful people? Your history flies in the face of your words.

"Try to take a portion or Serbian land as they did"

Again, you're referring to land Serbs have lived on for centuries. Your double standards are appalling.

"I stand by those in Vukovar 100%!"

Of course you do. You were brought up and taught by Ustasha. It's no surprise you hate Serbs and refer to us as "barbaric and backward." The more you write the more your true colors are shown.

"they should ban cirilica altogether and kick those that don't want to he Hrvati out, one by one!"

You are an intolerant racist. Your duplicitous and vitriolic comments paint the picture of an empty person. Keep telling yourself you're better than everyone else...one day you might even believe it.

From Ustasha Boy: "Croatia existed before and after Yugoslavia but your communist mentality does not allow you to see that."

Balkan History 101: Serbs were invited to settle in the Krajina more than 500 years ago by the A-H Empire in return for their military service. At that time the Croats were cleaning the stables for A-H.

I also find it interesting that you accuse me of having a communist mentality, yet you acknowledge Croatia's communist established borders. Remember it was Tito, a Croat, who was the father of communism in Yugoslavia who established Croatia's present day borders.

More racial insults from Ustasha Boy: "ti si cigan!"

The more you say, the more your Ustasha upbringing shows. Now you've referred to gypsies pejoratively. This doesn't surprise me though. Your relatives fought or a regime that tried to exterminate gypsies in Croatia. I can only imagine what your attitude is toward Jews.

Normally, your brand of bigotry is dangerous. But you're not smart enough to be dangerous. I find your prehistoric views to be quite entertaining. Keep telling yourself that Croats are superior. One day you might even believe it. You are a sad and pathetic person, but more than anything, you are a joke!

njegos wrote; "Hey Dr. Love, how about an apology from Croatia and the Vatican for their role in slaughtering Serbs during WWII? Blah blah blah"

How about a serb trying to argument without talking about WW2? You know very well that Ustasa had a small support in the croatian people (try to read some books, how about Esther Gitman's "When Courage Prevailed: The Rescue and Survival of Jews in the Independent State of Croatia 1941-1945", and that croats saw the Nazis as liberators from serbian oppression. (It's bad when you consider nazis as the lesser evil...).

The partisans (anti nazi) were in general croats, until serbs and cowardly cetniks (pro nazi, pro italian fascist, pro Ustasa, anti all the above) joined (of course when the outcome of the war were clear). I know, poor little boy, that you still beleive communist propaganda, that all serbs were heroes and all croats "nazis" as you say.

If you're so interrested in WW2, why don't you talk about the Bleiburg massacre?

I know that (thank God) that not all serbs are so biased and simple as you, some even fought on the bosniaks' side, as they were good people fighting against insane genoside.

Can you explain or justify the Srebrenica massacre? It would be a interresting read, or at least entertaining...

With your logic, it's OK for bosnians, albanians and croats to rape and murder sebs 40-50 years from now? After all you're ALL murdering cetniks, right?

I see a lot of wrongful hate and venomous spite from the Serbs. The Serbs who seem unable to acknowledge the fact that they were aggressors in four wars. The Serbs raped, bombed, ethnically cleansed and spat in the face of their former neighbours and countrymen. And now they want reciprocal harmony without first stretching out their hands saying "We are sorry for all the wrongdoings we did. We are sorry we killed two hundred thousand Bosnians, we are sorry we killed fifty thousand Croats, we are sorry we killed fifty thousand Albanian Kosovars. We are sorry we raped your wifes and daughters, killed your elderlies and children, bombed your churches and houses of worship. We are sorry we bombed your hospitals and kindergartens, your libraries and houses of culture. We are sorry we burned down and pillaged your homes, towns and cities. We are sorry we killed and tortured thousands of your people in our internment camps. We are sorry that we, being your former neighbours, did all of this and more without ever saying an official apology" ...whenever the Serbs are ready to start apologizing and paying war damage, you will most certainly see a totally different attitude from your former victims. As the situation is now, Serbia is still ridden with old ghosts. You can not expect any reconciliation without first going through a national catharsis and start giving out heartfelt apologies to your neighbours. Instead I see a lot of Serbs trying to turn the blame on their former victims.

njegos- I don't really know why you repeat the same exact lying version of what happened before and after the breakup of communist Yugoslavia, but you seem to put the responsibility on Croatia for apparently breaking International Law...we've discussed this and you know that Milosevic made his intentions clear and the rest of the Republics saw the writing on the wall!

Croatia first asked for autonomy but was denied...communism was done in Europe and yet, Croats should feel safe under a very pro Serbia (velika Srbija) and nationalistic Milosevic? you yourself admitted he was nationalistic and you also admitted he had his agenda.

I guess the only reason you continue down this path of Serb propaganda is because you have no other way of finding truth than to blame others.

The truth should be very open and clear to you by today, CrnaGora and Makedonija both pravoslavci nations wanted to separate from the velika Srbija mentality....this is fact!

accept responsibility and move on njegos, you keep telling the same stories that nobody else believe's!

njegos- "Again I ask, if other republics managed to secede with no bloodshed, why then couldn't Croatia?"

Serbs attacked Croatia, eventually, Croatia legally and with the recognition of the majority of the world regained back their territory in Krajina but you don't like to think it was done graciously...while we celebrate the victory as "Oluja"!This is why we don't have war criminals in the Hague but you do...because we defended against aggressors...can you refute that?

Here's an even better question for you to answer. Based on what you said, "Isn't that what the news outlets are tasked with doing? And they do it for free!" - I agree, Serbs are barbaric people because thats how the media portrayed them from 91 - 95. Drunk, barbaric and brutal criminals that ravaged Croatia and BiH! we didn't need any PR Team to do that for us, the news outlets did it themselves...thanks for agreeing!

You lie about Milosevic, he was a Nationalistic monster, you say he wasn't a Serb Nationalist while the entire world saw him as one!

fact: head of the Serbian Communist Party in 1987, In 1989, he inspired violent Serbian demonstrations that drove the constitutionally elected leaders of both Vojvodina and Kosovo out of office. Milosevic had begun building a Greater Serbia. Milosevic's overwhelming popularity among his people has been attributed to his devotion to Serbian unification. Revered as a savior by some, he is called the "Butcher of the Balkans" by others.

that was easy!

Cro Can - You continue to babble on and on about Milosevic as if I were one of his supporters. I have criticized Milosevic time and time again. I was never a supporter of his and I challenge you to point out where I ever said anything positive about him. This idea that he was a Serb nationalist is a joke. He was a hard line communist who would have supported green martians if it helped him to retain power. He abandonded the Serbs.

"Serbs attacked Croatia..."
CC, I know Serb families who had members killed before any war broke out. This happened on the heels of Tudjman's election. Address the issue of Serbs being fired, war criminals and Ustasha symbols reintroduced, homes vandalized. Are you telling me this didn't happen?

"This is why we don't have war criminals in the Hague but you do...because we defended against aggressors...can you refute that?"

I feel like I'm talking to a 2nd grader. Let's see, 2,000 Serbs were killed during Storm, most elderly civillians fleeing with their belongings. Many who couldn't leave were found later with their throats slit. But because no one was brought to justice, no war crimes were committed, right?

Let me use your Croatian logic. If a Serb kills your family member but is never brought to justice, no crime took place right CC?

(More in my next post)

when you start to admit, you will get better results. the war was one sided and there is a ton of evidence for you to research it yourself.

Milosevic prevented Croats rights, he didn't allow Mesic to attend presidency meetings, Kostic admitted in court that they introduced an imminent threat of war while on one hand they control the government and on the other, they do not allow a voice to be heard from the Croatian representative. TACTIC!

General Miloslav Djordjevic admitted in court that Karadzic and Milosevic discussed "how to get rid of Slovenia and half of Croatia"...this was admitted in sworn testimony!

you see njegos, you say that you hated Milosevic and yet this entire was started because of his policies, provocative policies and tactics. if he didn't begin with the nationalism by supporting the events in Knin and if he didn't rally the people regarding Kosovo and so many other incidents...nobody would have felt as threatened as they did. Serbs protested in the streets against him BUT, when he organized and authorized the annexation of Serb Krajina, Serbs in Serbia supported it LONG before war. Croatians were not able to stop anything, the army was controlled by a Serb leader...eventually, those that deserted the army went to their homes and those that were left were primarily Serbs or Orthodox religion. you can say Milosevic was hated...but he was supported to steal from Croatia!

CC - You live in a fantasy world.

"If Croatia broke International Law, you would have been able to address this in court, you can't...because no law was broken."

Croatia broke the Helsinki Accords of 1975 and the Yugoslav constitution. But it doesn't matter when you have the support of the US, Germany & UK. The facts are the EC was against premature recognition of Slovenia & Croatia. Germany recognized them anyway but wanted EC support. Great Britain wanted out of the European Monetary System. Germany agreed to support Great Britain's move away from the EMS in return for support on Croatian & Slovenian recognition. The US was also initially against it, then jumped on the bandwagon of recognition. Brush up on your research.

You say I make excuses for Milosevic. Wrong, I don't. He can rot in hell for all I care. But I do support the right of Krajina Serbs to live on the land that has been theirs for more than 500 years without being fired from their jobs, their homes vandalized and killed just because they are Serbs.

I detest Milosevic, but the things he said that you pointed out pale in comparison to the racist remarks and actions by Tudjman, whom you clearly make excuses for.

Would there have been a war without early recognition? We'll never know. But premature recognition accelerated the situation. Tudjman knew that and charged ahead. You have Croatia but lost your presence in B-H. In our lifetimes Serb-Croat relations will never be good. Are you happy?

njegos- you said: "But it doesn't matter when you have the support of the US, Germany & UK" - this comment is rubbish! Law is law, if you were confident in your case, as many countries do, you would have brought it to court. You don't seem to have issues going to the Hague for other topics, if you have legal proof and a legal argument, nobody can refute that. you are acting like a victim when you were the aggressor...don't you see how silly you are? PR Team, But it doesn't matter when you have the support of the US, Germany & UK, what's next njegos...you have childish excuses for everything.

"But I do support the right of Krajina Serbs to live on the land that has been theirs for more than 500 years without being fired from their jobs, their homes vandalized and killed just because they are Serbs" - by support, you mean take arms and use violence?

you said: "You have Croatia but lost your presence in B-H" - we aren't playing a board game, this is reality and life. Croatia is Croatia just as BiH is their own country, I don't understand your argument other than for you to be insinuating you have more presence and land...well njegos...thats partly why there was a war in the first place, your greed is what inspires you...it will be the end of you as well!


"in our lifetimes Serb-Croat relations will never be good. Are you happy?" - it depends, do you care about the bad neighbor that constantly tries to blame you for his own issues?

Now this is funny...."How can you annex land that you've lived on for over 500 years?" - hahaha...hahahaha....so, any group of people that live within someone else's borders can assume that land as their own? quite honestly, you're a joke and you have little between the ears. what you're saying is that since some Serbs lived there we should all assume that land was theirs? hahaha....now I truly understand why you people are still living in the past!

njegos, you can argue all day and night, you're illogical! Croatia existed before and after Yugoslavia but your communist mentality does not allow you to see that. you can't tell the difference between a state/republic with defined borders and people that live within someone else's borders...with your logic, any group of people that live in someone else's country should annex, heck...they've lived there so why not? ti si cigan!

call me a racist if you'd like, I know you're a barbaric cave man who can't tell the difference between right and wrong! I'd love to see what a German would say to a French or Italian if they tried to annex a portion of Germany, lets see what would happen if Ukraine tried it to Russia, I'm laughing and at the same time baffled at how ignorant and illogical you are.

Serbs that live in Vukovar do not share the same classroom, I think Croats are far too tolerant and should banish them...PERIOD! try that in any other country in the world, see how welcome the people would be...

Ustasha Boy, I see you've changed your screen name to Dan. You're still Ustasha Boy to me.

Regarding your lame attempt to finally answer my question, allow me to phrase it this way which I did a long time ago, but here goes again: You claim that no crimes were committed by Croats during Storm because no one was brought to justice. The international community has confirmed that close to 2,000 Serbs were killed, the majority of whom were civilians. If these people were fleeing as you state, and the majority of those killed were civilians as the international community has confirmed, DID A CRIME TAKE PLACE?

Earlier you said no crimes occurred because no one was convicted. So I ask again, if someone kills a family member of yours but is never brought to justice, did a crime occur? Please answer.

Please try not to take 2 months to answer this time. That superior Croat brain that you keep telling me about should be able to handle such a simple question. LOL!

njegos- its always a challenge to make a point of view to a person or an audience. one must ensure they have the attention and that those listening/reading have the capacity to understand...this is clearly a case of where you do not have the capacity to be objective, factual and/or understand clear facts!

you have always repeated the same "PR Team", "Tudjman attacked Serbs living in Croatia", "Croats broke International law"....such a primitive and uneducated attempt to discredit a nation that is years ahead of yours with less far less the population. are we to blame for you being backwards as well?

Serbia tried but could not attain a PR Team...nobody wanted to touch the aggressors...PR Teams are utilized to inform international community of what was happening. If Croats broke International law, why weren't they penalized internationally? Its simple...only your Serbian view thinks they broke a law...it was velika Srbija's law, not international law!

Krajina was the result of Serbs "UNLAWFULLY" SEPARATING, it was a self-proclaimed and thus were never was internationally recognized...the so called unlawful separation of Croatia declared independence June 1991, which came into effect on 8 October of the same year...see the difference...of course not...you're Serbian and do not accept international recognition, you only know Serbian version!

As I have stated before, move on...stop living in the past and stop believing your own lies!

" Let's see, 2,000 Serbs were killed during Storm, most elderly civillians fleeing with their belongings. Many who couldn't leave were found later with their throats slit. But because no one was brought to justice, no war crimes were committed, right?" - was anyone convicted of war crimes? part 2 coming

Milošević: Molim vas, 6 hiljada Hrvata je branilo Vukovar pola godine; napadala je cela Prva armija, vazduhoplovstvo, čudo, sva sila koju je imala JNA, a oni nisu odbranili Knin, kojem se može prići samo iz tri pravca; nisu ga mogli braniti ni 12 sati!?
Oni ga nisu branili, jer po svim izveštajima koje smo dobili od policajaca, građana i ostalih, čim je prestala artiljerijska priprema u sedam uveče, oni su naredili - bežaniju! Prema tome, tu nije bilo nikakvog otpora niti je bilo borbenog dodira sa hrvatskim snagama. (...) - Tamo je palo naređenje da svi izađu iz Krajine istog dana, čak bez stvorenog kontakta sa hrvatskom vojskom na najvećem delu fronta. Da smo istog tog dana napravili idiotsku glupost da im pomognemo, ko bi to stigao do Knina do večeri da im pomogne?! Pa, tamo ne bi moglo da se stigne od njihovih kolona kojima su zakrčili sve putove u bežaniji zajedno sa stanovništvom. (...) Pitanje je ko je, zaista, doneo odluku da krajiško rukovodstvo napusti Krajinu? Takva odluka, kada su imali sve uslove da se brane, izazvala je egzodus. Sada to treba da bude razlog da Jugoslavija jurne tamo da brani te teritorije, sa kojih su oni utekli kao zečevi?

you have jumped forward to "the war" when I am saying Serbs, a Serb or many Serbs but not all Serbs caused this war. you cannot attempt to convince people that they started a war and then dismiss the obvious aggressive and provocative acts of Slobodan Milosevic, he, through his cabinet and with his politics, he didn't allow fairness in the government and he ensured control would remain from a Serb...deny that! In February 1990, Jovan Raskovic founded the Serb Democratic Partyin Knin. Its program stated that the "regional division of Croatia is outdated" and that it "does not correspond with the interest of Serb people".The party program endorsed redrawing regional and municipal lines to reflect the ethnic composition of the areas, and asserted the right of territories with a "special ethnic composition" to become autonomous. This echoed Milosevic position that internal Yugoslav borders should be redrawn to permit all Serbs to live in a single country.but we had nothing to fear? Croatia was going to be part of velika Srbija and we should be ok with that?

you ask why justice hasn't been served with regards to Oluja? is that the question? there are 2 sides to every story, we know Serbs left on their own accord fearing Croatian retribution for all the atrocities they committed, we also know you annexed that part (Krajina) illegally and without ever getting the necessary recognition as we did, some committed atrocities and should face justice, I agree with that!

Cro Can - You continually return to Milosevic and his divisive actions. I have always condemned Milosevic's actions whether they were before, during or after the war. Were there Serbs who supported Milosevic? Yes, many. But there was always a strong opposition to him as well.

You, on the other hand never seem to mention or criticize the divisive rhetoric from Tudjman, the father of your independence. In his book 'Wastelands of Historical Reality' he says that genocide is necessary. He publicly stated that he was glad his wife was neither a Serb nor a Jew. He minimized the number of Serbs killed at Jasenovac. He brought back Ustasha war criminals and named streets after them. Stipe Mesic, who you referenced, stated that in planning meetings for Operation Storm, Tudjman said that they should make it appear as if the Serbs never lived in Croatia. Heceg Bosna was his attempt at Velika Croatia. The ICTY found that Tudjman ran a criminal enterrprise after his death. Tell me CC, if you were a Serb and found yourself living in a new and hostile country overnight, would you have just accepted it?

But the real crux of the problem between Serbs and Croats are people like you who paint with a broad brush. Your statements that Serbs are 'drunken barbarians' and 'backward' tells me all I need to know about you. I shouldn't be surprised though. You were taught by Ustasha who fought for a regime whose stated goal was to exterminate all Serbs. You're a lost cause.

njegos- in order for us to come to any resolution, we should remain on topic...you're not able to address my comments about the breakup of Yugoslavia...you said "Croatia broke International Law" and I addressed that by providing you events and facts that prove they did NOT but that Serbs, with the support of Milosevic did break International Law...now you're going on about Tudjman's character?!?!

If Croatia broke International Law, you would have been able to address this in court, you can't...because no law was broken. Its how you see it, not how the entire world sees it.

I'm so tired of talking about the atrocities, really...but the experience was barbaric...it cannot be explained any differently.

to answer your question about Tudjman, he did a good thing for Croatians in helping get independence...was his book something I support, NO! were many of his comments extreme and provocative, YES! but going back to the initial discussion about Krajina, declaring it as the Serb Republic and overtaking the police station and taking the weapons...that is a clear act of provocation and a clear indication of Serbs provoking a war...where else on earth would that be accepted?

when a person says they condemn someone, in this case Milosevic, how could you support his decisions to clearly pave the way for Serbs to gain territory...and then expect the other republics to sit by and accept it. if you were against him, you would not make these excuses for his wrongdoings.

CC - For a member of the superior Croatian race that you frequently remind us of, your writings suggest that you are anything but superior. Be careful the Croatian authorities are going to revoke your Aryran master race card if you keep writing such jibberish.

I'm not sure what world you live in, but it's not based in reality. Madeleine Albright admitted international law was broken when NATO bombed Serbia. Nasir Oric admitted to beheading Serb civilians but was acquitted by the Hague. Countless legal scholars have questioned the validity and fairness of the Hague. But you, Mr. Croatian Canadian, descendant of Ustasha Nazis, swear by it. That's a ringing endorsement!

You never answered my question about if someone killed a family member of yours but was never brought to justice, is that person innocent? That seems to be your rational on the 2,000 Serbs killed during Storm, right? No one was brought to justice, so according to you, no crime was committed. More Croatian logic. And you call yourself superior. Again, I'm not sure what you do for a living, but I am sure you're not in the legal profession. And I'm beginning to think that you must not have to think for a living either.

why do you inflate numbers for everything? you said: "That seems to be your rational on the 2,000 Serbs killed during Storm, right"?

From the Human Rights web page...this is not Croatian, this is a 3rd Party: The offensive, which lasted a mere thirty-six hours, resulted in the death of an estimated 526 Serbs, 116 of whom were reportedly civilians.

to answer your question about whether those people or persons were innocent, NO...were they unjustifiably seeking revenge for the barbaric Serbs invading Croatian towns and cities across Croatia, YES! you can chalk this revenge to your Milosevic policies...Serbs were aggressors in Croatia, they destroyed far more than what they received and they collaborated to seek a Greater Serbia...evident-ally, they lost not only their cause, but there lives as well!

I really do find it interesting that you are looking at rights for people who were clearly wrong. you started a war, you claimed Krajina part of Serbia and when you lost the war and Krajina was taken back, you cower, whine and cry as if you are the victim...is that what they teach you in Serbian school?

stay in Serbia, when have you ever heard of Croatians being unpeaceful...and then ask yourself how often Serbia has issues with its neighbors? Crna Gora cannot handle dealing with you, BiH can't either, Macedonia, Slovenia was happy to get rid of you, Croatia may be your only hope but we don't want you to impose you ways in Croatia!

The day a population of crnogorci look to annex and make their own state within Serbia will be their last day on earth. You're as dumb as it gets....but this doesn't surprise me!

Try to take a portion or Serbian land as they did, see what happens....you're clueless njegos, you don't have a clue what you're saying and I stand by those in Vukovar 100%!

Those kids don't even share the same classroom, Serbs in their classes Croats in their own....they should ban cirilica altogether and kick those that don't want to he Hrvati out, one by one!

ok, so far you've not answered a single question nor have you explained why Serbs in Krajina had a right to claim it as their own...you deflect and point into the next direction...nice! its your mentality that holds your people back bre...PR Firms, Croatia broke International Law, Milosevic lead you but you claim he didn't, calling people Ustase as if its a bad thing...Cetniks are good, right?

I'm not quite sure why Croatia's history negatively affects you, are you jealous? The fact we exist since late in the 6th century should not affect you whatsoever...unless of course it bothers you that we have more success, but that's pretty easy to do!

dodging the topics are your specialty...you still have not addressed why its ok for Krajina Serbs to annex, you defer to Croatia broke International Law...when I say we did NOT and that this could have been handled on the International stage, you say the Germans, Americans and Brits are corrupt and side with us...but, you sheepishly and without a logical argument cannot explain why Serbs from Krajina could annex...you use the cave man version of "we were the for 500 years"...hahaha...this is your rational?

call me a racist, an Ustasa or whatever you'd like...I'm past the games of the 90's but you're obviously still not over the 40's...Jasenovac is you go to play when you have nothing else to debate!

you are not smart enough to debate intelligently, you ramble the same junk for years...soo predictable and soo irrelevant!

Dear Njegos,

Your Question: "If someone kills a family member of yours but is never brought to justice, is that person guilty of a crime?"

Answer "NOT GUILTY"

All modern civilized Nations have a JUSTICE system that presume all persons to be "Innocent until proven guilty".

There are cases of Self-Defense, which by the way was the case of "Operation Storm". The Croats defended their own territory and defeated the Serbs who were the aggressors / instigators and who occupied Croatian land / territory.

There is also a thing called "Evidence", if there is NO evidence and a crime CAN NOT be proven with reasonable doubt then there is NO trial, NO one is charged and there is NO guilt.

The Serbs gambled their fate in Croatia in the early 1990's.....the Serbs LOST and then they 'ethnically cleansed' themselves from Croatia under the direct orders of their leadership to pick up and leave.

Thanks

Dan

you continue to refer to Tudjman, your accusations him of naming streets after Ustase and that Croatia has no history and yet you attempt to somehow feebly explain Serbs in Krajina had a right to that land although you are not capable of grasping one simple concept...Croatia owned that land (Kingdom of Croatia) even during the period of the Habsburg's. this period when you say we were "stable cleaners" to the Austrian's is similar to you Serbs being "stable cleaners" to Turks (Ottman's)...did you forget that? being part of a western culture is far different than being part of a pre historic culture but if you want to find your roots and figure out why you people are backwards, go to Ankara, I'm sure your great grandparents could explain it to you!

I find it interesting you have been taught that PR Teams affected the perception of Serbia, CNN simply displayed Serb aggression on tv, it was enough for the world to see in plain and simple terms why you act like barbarians, targeting old Dubrovnik and historical buildings, raping women and children and then allowing criminals like Milosevic, Karadzic and Seselj represent you...have you ever seen how they represent themselves in the Hague, its quite hilarious to see these barbaric and sick minded degenerates that your people chose as their leaders. you say Tudjman was bad...at least he stood up to those criminals!


regarding the "International Community": Croatia does not have any criminals at the Hague...Serbia does!