No survivors as Malaysian plane crashes in Ukraine

(bez_cenzure,

You're right.The most convenient explanation for the US and its puppet regime in Kiev is to apportion the blame for the Malaysian plane's crash on Russia.It does remind me a similar incident in Syria when Assad was accused by the US and Turkey of using Sarin gas against civiians only for journalist Seymour Hersh to reveal in his article published at the London Review of Books on April 17 2014 that it was Turkey which organized the Aug. 21, 2013 chemical attack in Syria to provoke world public opinion leading to a U.S. intervention in the country.

For the ordinary layman the first question coming in mind is what did Russia and the fighters operating in eastern Ukraine have to gain by downing a civilian airliner?The answer is absolutely nothing and everything to lose by allowing the propagandists across the West to have a field day and pinning the blame on Russia and anti-Kiev fighters in eastern Ukraine.The way I see it this incident is probably the last throw of the dice for the US and its puppet regime in Ukraine.Militarily the regime was torn apart in Eastern Ukraine with a number of military units either destroyed and at the political level the US was losing the war on sanctions.At the last EU meeting nine countries including Germany,France and Italy decided against any meaningful sanctions knowing pretty well the effects of such actions would've had on their own feeble economies.The US and their agent Poroshenko have a lot to answer.

The western media and US officials had already made their verdict before anything was known about the crash. The fact that the US looked immediately with its usual disregard about the facts to blame Russia and Hillary Clinton talked about how the Europeans who doubted Russia being the aggressor in Ukraine will now have to "make up their mind" and "work closer with the US" clearly shows that this was another false flag carried out by the US and the Kiev regime to isolate and put pressure on Russia and persuade the wobbly Europeans that following America ( to its fast-approaching end) is the only way. Where others see a tragedy they always see an opportunity.

I see no reason why it would be in Russia's interest to shoot this plane down. They have been avoiding armed conflict in the Eastern Ukraine, even though they could have technically stepped in by now if they wanted to. They could have also introduced a no-fly zone earlier, and they didn't, since Ukrainian attack aircraft have been hitting civilian infrastructure in the East of the country.

I see no reason why any separatist rebel group would have done it either (perhaps a tiny chance that it was a mistake, though I seriously doubt that, given the plane was flying at 33,000 feet and the Buk system had to have been operated by someone with intel).

Could have been the Ukrainian government? Very possible, since they stand more to gain by getting very real support from the West in terms of military aid, something they cannot do without if they had to rely on their own devices against Russia.

Could it have been the USA/West? While Eastward expansion of Euro-Atlantic influence is a key strategy, I think that shooting down an airliner in order to smear Russia is stretching it very far, since this will very likely end in some kind of military conflict and they surely wouldn't want one with someone as powerful as Russia (this is no Iraq, Syria, Serbia etc.), so what would they stand to gain? Not as much as the Ukrainian government, unless it would mean writing off the severe debts that the West is up to their ears in?

I wonder how this will play out in future.

The Russian terrorist leader himself confirmed that they shot down a plan at 17:50. The tweet went through Twitter and VK. Only when they discovered that the Russian terrorists murdered 300 civilians, among them 80 kids, they removed everything, including the picture of a Buk17 launcher with which they bragged about a few days ago.

Russia has (more) bloods on her hands. It is well overdue to stand up and stop those mass murderers. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

a lot is left again in your article, and it all points in one direction; the russian seperatists shot down this plane by accident.
minutes after the 777 was shot down, one of their russian commanders pourdly posted on the russian equivalent of Facebook that they had just shot down a ukrainian transport plane right where the 777 finally came down. Even a picure was included, which looks the same as the one everybody has seen by now from the downed Malaysian 777. Some russian news media also reported the same. That posting was later on deleted when it was clear that a civilian plane was hit.
At the same time Ukrainian survailance recorded a conversation between the seperatists and russian commanders which shows the same. First they report that they just shut down a military transport plane, and than shockingly realized that it was a civilian plane when the their people reached the site of the disaster. The voice of the russian commander obvioulsy is pretty well known and they even know his name.
All sounds like an accident, but the responsibily lies with the russian separatists and Russia itself. They support these terrorists and Putin's Russia will have to pay the bill. Russia will loose even more credibility, and will have to live with the consequences.
This will also not make it easier for Serbia to keep up their current support for Russia, and the west, which is infuriated, will strongly demand now that serbian foreign policy will come in line with western policy.

And indeed, what I should have said earlier, sincerest condoloence to the innocent victims of this tragedy and game between the powers that be.

"Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the Ukrainian authorities were responsible for the crash, saying the tragedy would not have happened had Kiev not launched a military offensive in the east of the country."

Might be true, but not the whole truth and a lot of twisting the facts.

With the same reasoing I could say: Russia is responsible for the crash, because if Russia wouldn't have annexed Crimea, then the separatists in eastern Ukraine wouldn't have felt encouraged to spread their terror there, thus they wouldn't have stolen anti-aircraft missiles from usurped Ukrainian military bases, thus the the plane wouldn't have grounded.

But it's likely that the separatist shot down the plane, they even were boasting about having grounded a plane in social media at exactly that time, but they were talking about having shot down a Ukrainian military plane.

Anyway, condolences to the innocent victims.

Everything is the fault of the US crowd is at it again. How on earth is this tragic event the fault of America? How stupid are you people? It flew over the airspace of another state, controlled by armed factions of a rebel group. The likeliest scenario is that those pro-Russian people shot it down, knowingly or not. But of course, logic is cryptonite for those who think themselves smart and who hide behind words like geopolitics. It doesn't take much for them to blame the West

Hi Peter !

You gave a very good comment but I have something to add :

1/ The developments on the battlefield where Kiev is retreating in all directions do not push the Russian side to such horrible provocations. American striking forces including both Polish battalions (Azov and Kavkaz) are surrounded. Besides it’s not the Russian way of solving problems.

2/ The American side has got a lot of experience of provoking wars so their people in Kiev are the main suspects if we talk about a deliberate attack. Technically they have Buk and S-200 missiles.

3/ Anyway I suppose that the plane has been hit by mistake. No matter who’s mistake it was if not the fascist riot in Kiev thousands of people in Ukraine and Hollande would be alive.
4/ Best if we wait the results of the investigation. As I heard the truth cannot be concealed.

When I first heard the news I immediately thought of all the moronic comments I was going to read on B92.
People like Peter, rote, Leonidas and the rest suspeneded their logic, or hunamity, and immediately decided to place blame on Kiev and the West at the same time absolving Putin and his pack from the crime.

I think we ALL know who is guilty here.
If you are going to blame:
- the airline for flying over that area
- Kiev for exercising their right to dethrone a corrupt puppet and stand up for freedom
- West for promoting freedom ...

then you're an idiot or just a down-right rotten person!

LEt's also blame the kids of Srebrenica who were mercilessly slaughtered for having been born in the first place. How dare they?

Blame everyone but the real perpetrators.

It's so funny that sj thinks there's "not a shred of evidence" for the fact that Serb forces killed 8000+ at Srebrenica, yet he KNOWS the 'real story' behind the downed jetliner.

3 mass graves worth of bones painstakingly cross-examined with the DNA of living relatives over the course of 10 years = FAKE

Whatever happens to fit with my wishful thinking = IRONCLAD TRUTH

RIP to each and every victim. But for the grace of god... Obama just announced we had at least 1 American onboard - I believe more. It all originates from Russia, of course, which means killer Putin. Remember Milosevic in the 90s? Then you get the picture. http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-mh17-audio-buk-russia/25462008.html

No formal investigation yet, but everything indicates that plane has been shot down. As they point this was the worst such accident (military shooting down civilian flights) in history (298 victims) reactions are from shock to fury and rage. Everyone (including US government) speaks with one voice "shooter is responsible". Are there any diverging opinions?
Yes. US government is no stranger to claiming opposing things, sometimes at ones.
Let's look at second largest accident of this kind in history (290 victims).It involved USS Vincennes in Iranian waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

" The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits."

"Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path."

In the end US agreed to pay compensation that outraged Iran, who noted Libya is paying 30 times as much for Lockerbie, but...

" However, the United States has never admitted responsibility, nor apologized to Iran"

Why didn't US take responsibility for Iran Air disaster?

New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/15/world/iran-falls-short-in-drive-at-un-to-condemn-us-in-airbus-case.html

Vice President George H W Bush, later President, later father of President...

"Vice President Bush, in answering the Iranian, offered no new information on the incident. Instead he reiterated the Reagan Administration's view that the trouble began when Iranian gunboats fired on an American helicopter from the Vincennes and that the Iranian authorities should have diverted the plane from crossing virtually over the American cruiser. ''They allowed a civilian aircraft loaded with passengers to proceed on a path over a warship engaged in battle,'' Mr. Bush said. ''That was irresponsible and a tragic error.''

Iran tried to point out that skirmish just happened and that "... the plane was completely unaware of the battle scene below it while the cruiser was equally unaware the plane was openly transmitting normal civilian radio talk. " but to no avail.
US position is that civilian aeroplanes need not fly over war zones, and it's a mistake of flight control.
Now this! The only difference is that "skirmish" in Ukraine didn't just start but planes have been shot down for a while.
Do we believe US government that "shooter is responsible", or do we believe US government that Ukrainian flight control is responsible for not diverting the plane from war zone? What's your opinion?

The easiest way to find the culprit of an action is to see who benefits from that. Does Russia somehow benefit from what has happened? I think the answer is no and that's something even the antirussians will have to admit. And by the way, what happened to that other malaysian plane that's still missing and was heading toward Diego Garcia? Did the Russian separatists shoot that down too?

rote

1) Azov Battalion is Ukrainian, not Polish. I am not familiar with any Kavkaz Battalion, but this is even less a name that any Polish battalion would choose for themselves. Also, like there are no official Russian forces involved in the East, there are also no American and Polish ones either, unless you count military advisers/trainers, mercenaries and foreign volunteers in independent militias, but in this case they are individuals, not regular armed forces, and this phenomenon is seen on both sides of this conflict.

4) I am suspicious of any investigation into this affair. All too many times we have seen conflicting information coming from both sides involved in such an investigation and this time will be no different. Can we really say we will ever have a truly independent investigation in such a matter? I am not sure.

Hassan aka john

When Russia stands up trolls like yourself and bob will look to dig a hole to survive.As for blood ask your protectors the us and your turkish ancestors how much blood they have on their hands.

No rote it is not the fault of the Ukrainian revolutionaries that this airplane was downed. It is the fault of the person who fired the missile and his commanding officer who told him to do it. Do not apportion blame to those who are blameless.

TO ALL WHO STIL HAVE A HOPE OF DEFEATING THE RUSSIANS IN UKRAINE.

Here we have a leak of the heavy losses the Americans and their Nazi Sonderkommand are suffering in the Ukraine.

http://www.euromaidanu.net/archives/831

Thus in between June 9 and 15 they lost 1600 killed , 4723 wounded , also 35 tanks , 96 armored vehicles , 38 artillery units , 7 planes , 2 helicopters , 104 trucks. Our losses the enemy estimated as 48 killed , 64 wounded , 2 anks , 5 martyrs ect. It’s a very sad story and we must clean Ukraine as soon as possible hopefully before the New Year.

talking a real nonsense...ukrainianas want to speak in Ukrainian in Ukraine but ruSSian fascists want everybody to talk their ugly language - so drop the ridiculous "nazi" blabber. RuSSIans in Ukraine and in other exSU states are like Albanians in Serbian province KiM - intruders - who want to expel all indigenous people, or better to kill all of them... but what tcan one expect from ruSSian vatniki? 2 friends ruSSians and germans celebrating the beginning of WWII - http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20070508.php
http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20080412.php

collaboration of ruSSian NKVD and german Gestapo - irrefutable evidence.
http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20061225.php

by the way...everyone knows how finns "started" the Winter War - bloody ruSSian provocateurs!!! you won't get away with the shooting down of an airliner, mark my words! Of course - you have your friend Kadyrov- who killed the first russian when he was 16 and according to him he has killed more than 100 of yours - backing you since you alone are not able to fight ukrainian patriots..lol

Peter I didn’t mean to hurt you. Everybody knows that in Ukraine we have volunteers from most European countries fighting against us. It is what we always expect as well as the legions to “march march Domrovsky…” It’s very routine but something tells me that you personally do not approve it. This two mentioned battalions are reportedly composed of the Poles (above 50%) and Lithuanians plus other International Soldiers of Fortune. Poles were not noticed in massacres. Traditionally they guard most vital objects like Karachun Hill (Black Death) near Slavinsk or airport of Luganks. Also Azov entered Mariupol. Most often Poles speak Russian and close their eyes at the fact that they serve to Kolomoisky Jewish mad dog. Search for польские чвк в украине * польские наемники на украине * польские наемники на горе карачун * польские наемники на майдане * польские батальоны на украине in Russian web and enter the below links for more information.

http://nvua.net/ukraine/FT-Poroshenko-prinyal-reshenie-o-voennyh-deystviyah-v-Donbase-pod-davleniem-1983.html

http://ruskline.ru/opp/2014/7/16/demontazh_ukrainy_prodolzhaetsya_valcmanporoshenko_pered_restituciej_formiruet_batalon_iz_soldat_nato/

http://nk.org.ua/politika/84783-za-chto-voyuyut-na-ukraine-polskie-eskadrony-smerti

@ Sreten,
I feel extremely sorry for the victims and their families. However I could not have said it better than Sreten comments. One of the biggest problems in this world is that there are double standards. One rule for the west and another rule for the rest of the world. How about "1" rule for everyone. This incident as tragic as it is shows that profit and money comes before all else. Why would you fly a civilian aircraft no matter at what altitide over a war zone? Does passenger and staff safety not come first? Or does profit come first. How does one know what military equipment a country or rebel faction hold. Why would you risk the lives of passengers and staff by flying over a war zone knowing that such technology to blow a plane out of the sky exists and can be bought on the bkack market. I dont condone the action at ALL. But let the world, UN rule by one law and not 2 when it suites a particular party. Good things are never experienced in war, lets hope that this type of incident never happens again irrespective of where the airline is fromand more importantly who is on board. May their soles rest in peace and their loved ones left behind find the strenght to carry on. Very sad day indeed!

Well here we go again the western propaganda machine in full flow. They instantly know who's to blame and surprise surprise it's their old bad boys,the Russians. Pictures emerging of rocket launchers vacating the scene which could have been recorded anywhere and by anyone. Reports of social media conversations which anyone could have made and taken down from anywhere. It'll be pictures of Ukranians in "concentration camps" next. Hey now doesn't all this sound very familiar?? Remember Bosnia,the US downing of an Iranian civilian jet,weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the list is endless and anyone who believes any of this nonsense is gullible to "Putin" it mildly. Come on you can do better than this, insulting our intelligence in this repetitive manner.

Continuing from the previous one.
I do not friggn care, did American mercenaries lose 100, 200 or 20000 in Ukraine, good riddance.

Civilian aircraft is completely different thing.

Now if you look at the AN-26 the so-called "rebels" did claim first to shot down (none was shot down that day) and than confusing it with a B-777... and than coming up with the "fact" that MH-17 "probably did bring spies to Ukraine, that's why it was there"... whatever their cause is, these rebels are mentally retarded, at the level of a child.

All sides are responsible - but with this MH-17 tragedy Russians have to take the 100% blame (if they have balls, that is). Besides, they have to answer me why (obviously) most retarded men have all the weaponry - I would not give these guys even an hunting knife.

And secondary... Who is that Igor Girkin ( see the dialog? )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

Better in Russian, I think, English is not detailed enough...

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Стрелков,_Игорь_Иванович

An other neat person, kind of Nazi, I guess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai

While what Ukrainian side is doing is horrible and can easily described as "Nazi", unfortunately the Russian side is quite worse.

Seeing all these "figures" I am thinking, Arkan is by far not the worst.

BTW: regardless, in the Ukrainian-Russian conflict I am formly on Russian side. But not for any price and I want to see Russians without criminals like that.

Western scum has gotten what it deserved!

They started this conflict by starting riots in Kiev and deposing the legal Ukranian government and now their people died!

And I don`t give a hoot about it as long as no Russians are harmed!

Russia should declare war on Ukraine,conquer it and get rid of non Russians!
After that,annex it ,same goes with Belarus and kazakstan in the long run!

Putin,there is no point in talking with AngloSaxons like there was no point in reasoning with Hitler!

The fascist West must be defeated in Ukraine,now is the time to escalate the conflict big time!

cry me a river

You're accusing posters for suspending their humanity but you seem to know everything end therefore being a judge and jury by announcing "I think we ALL know who is guilty here" .Before any judgement is passed one can start by asking several questions beginning with the Ukrainian traffic controllers. Was the MH-17 plane deliberately directed into Donetsk in the hopes that Donetsk forces would mistakenly shoot it down or
was the MH-17 deliberately directed into hostilities area so Kiev forces would shoot it down in a false flag attempt (desperate from recent military setbacks?) Did you know the "Ukraine's SBU security service have confiscated all the recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner? How do you know what kind of missile brought the plane down?Was the missile fired by an air-defence system or a fighter plane?
Although any investigation into the incident must be carried out by independent experts without any input by US or its puppet regime in Kiev there is a high probability that we are going to have more fabricated evidence, such as the fabricated evidence presented by US Secretary of State Colin Powell to the UN “proving” the existence of the non-existent Iraqi “weapons of mass destruction” or the "Iranian nuclear nukes" or the Syrian chemical attacks.The US has succeeded with so many lies, deceptions and crimes that it believes that it can always succeed again.

If investigators ever determine who are the culpable parties responsible for shooting down this particular Malaysia Airlines aircraft (even if it's determined to be an unintentional act) the question is how easy or how difficult would it be for investigators and or passengers' family members to initiate legal actions or proceedings against liable parties?

It doesn't take much for them to blame the West
(Nikolle, 18 July 2014 12:36)
=======================
When you start a chain reaction and it get gets worse and worse whose fault is it? Yours. The US has started this ugly war and they are responsible for the events that take place even if they can't control them now.
It's so simple Nikolle. Surprised you don't see it.

Another coward Albanian


ruSSian fascists want everybody to talk their ugly language …

• Sounds as good as Jewish Fascists! Good joke ! But only a finished idiot can call the great Russian language UGLY … Is language of Kelmendi something better than the language of Pushkin ? Then you have problems with your health.

RuSSIans in Ukraine and in other exSU states are like Albanians in Serbian province KiM – intruders …

• Only a heavy wounded moron can say that Russians are intruders to their own Ukraine.

ruSSian vatniki

• Though I prefer being called MOSKAL well be it VATNIKS … VATNIKS are the proudest people in the world refusing to kiss overseas asses. Also VATNIKS saved the world from all kinds of fascism including the Ukrainian one. Besides we have opened the cosmic era, we are the biggest energy power and we have more nukes than your Master , our missils of all types are the best and nothing can compare with our submarines ect. So VATNIK sounds very proud!

collaboration of ruSSian NKVD and german Gestapo …

• This I refuse to comment because NKVD f*cked both Gestapo Abwehr to and fro. As a result Kanaris was shot own by Hitler and Mueller flew to the USA to host thousands of the fascists in 1945-47.

By the way main words in the Russian hymn are СЛАВЬСЯ ОТЕЧЕСТВО НАШЕ СВОБОДНОЕ ! Don’t you find that it sounds more optimistic than the main and tragic worlds in the Ukrainian hymn ЩЕ НЕ ВМЕРЛА УКРАИНА … I think that ВЖЕ ВМЕРЛА !

Since the plane downing.

Putin has been doing to Ukraine the kind of things that Milosevic did in his region.

Putin is going to go downhill from now on. His credibility is rubbished.

Hopefully he will straighten up his ways after this horrific event.

Or resign.

More likely he will continue to hide behind his own lies and his own propaganda.

Like Milosevic did.

Russia deserves better.

Malaysia deserves better..

ATA-MAN

“ I want to see Russians without criminals like that.” ТЫ ЖЕ ЗНАЕШЬ , ЧТО ЭТО АМЕРИКАНСКИЙ СТИЛЬ - ПОТЕРПИ НЕСКОЛЬКО ДНЕЙ И ВСЕ УЗНАЕШЬ ! НЕ ГОВОРИ НИЧЕГО , О ЧЕМ ПРИДЕТСЯ БЫСТРО ПОЖАЛЕТЬ. В КОНЦЕ-КОНЦОВ, МЫ ЖЕ И ВЕНГРОВ ТОЖЕ ОСВОБОЖДАЕМ.

As for the fakes SBU is producing them at a speed of a Xerox machine. The one you mention is already revealed. It was exposed in the web 21 hours before the plane was hit. And it is composed out of 3 parts with only two of them real. The places they mention there are 100 km away from the place.

Remember what I predict. I suppose Russia is already acting like the times when CIA pilot Major Harry Powers was hit on May 1 near Sverdlovsk. For about a month our side kept silent and let everyboy in the world to mud themselves with lies. And when the whole world was sure that those bloodthirsty Russians have killed a good American guy who was a good scientist to lose the coordinates we exposed the spy over the TV. It was a shock for the Americans that Powers was alive and he cooperated the Russians. Seems that we already have the evidence we need to reveal the truth. К тому же ,если мы начнем убивать гражданских , то чем же мы будем отличаться от американцев ? Нет , дружище , нам такой хоккей не нужен !

Exactly... Since the rebels in East Ukranine are not allowing OSCE observers access to the site, it is clear who the culprit is per your suggestion above.
(icj1, 19 July 2014 18:55)
==========================
icj1, your reply makes absolutely no sense at all.
Tell us how does Russia benefit from this?
If anyone benefits it's Ukraine because this might draw others into this conflict.
It's amazinbg that as soon as this tragedy happened Australian media was 100% sure it's Putin's fault. No investigation yet and no way of knowing yet but everyone is sure Putin has blood on his hand.
Now this has certainly served someone well.
It might have been shot down by mistake too thinking it was a Ukranian plane but even if true it's not Putin's doing. He is not stupid to order this because it would serve no purpose to him. It would do quite the opposite as we can see.
QANTAS has avoided this area for four months now. Makes you wonder how irrisponsible Malaysian Airlies are to fly over an area in the middle of a civil war and all to save some fuel.

B92 please place it as it is in Russian.

• Испанский диспетчер, который вел упавший "Боинг", опубликовал сообщение в своем Твиттере, в котором говорилось, что два украинских истребителя были замечены рядом с самолетом за несколько минут до того, как он исчез с радаров.

• El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares, — ✈ Carlos. (@spainbuca) 17 июля 2014

• Когда "Боинг" просто исчез с радаров, киевские власти нам сообщили, что он разбился. Как они могли узнать это так быстро? - пишет Карлос в своем микро-блоге.

http://www.kp.ru/online/news/1795065/

cry me a river

I am not suspended in anything, I just asked a simple question: cui bono? I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why Russia would benefit from shooting down a civilian airliner. I don't like Putin either, but he is no inhuman monster, neither is he that stupid that he would drag Russia into a full-scale war with the West. I also did not blame the West either, I just speculated that they would have more to gain in this situation, which is something no one can really deny, but this does not mean that they actually did it.

I don't see any reason for you to get uptight and throw insults around.

Which country shot down Iranian Air flight 655? I've forgotten.

[link]
(Asteri, 21 July 2014 15:51)
====================
Iranians not important. The US can kill without consequences.
Any loss of life, especially civilian is tragic and all care has to be taken to avoid that.
Having said that, Malaysian Airlines had a responsibility to their passengers first and not saving fuel which they didn't this time. Other airlines avoided the area, why not them? They failed.
No wonder a class suit is going to happen.

B92

My second post to ASTERI has been deleted here. Meanwhile the only thing I wrote was MARG BAR AMRICA WA ZINDA BAD MARDOM-E QAHRAMANE IRAN that meant DOWN WITH AMERICA AND LONG LIVE THE HEROIC PEOPLE OF IRAN. Either anti-American slogans are no longer accepted here or the previous Moderator with good Persian has retired. As you know half the posts in the web damn the USA and 24% of people in the world believe that the Americans are the biggest threat to peace while only 2% mostly Albanians think the same about Russia.

pee me a river

People like Peter, rote, Leonidas ,,,
• Good company thanks for the complement !

immediately decided to place blame on Kiev and the West
• Why call yourself a moron ? You are just little informed because nobody here makes conclusions yet. We wait for the commission to start working while Kiev is already banning their job. Why should they ?

STOP YOUR HISTERIA IT WON’T HELP !!!

"So, now back to the aircraft that was shot down yesterday... what was your point?
(icj1, 19 July 2014 18:51) "

I think Boris gets my point.

Most think shooter is guilty.
Nikolle" - It is the fault of the person who fired the missile and his commanding officer who told him to do it."

One of the stumbling blocks on the way of normalizing complex relationship between US and Iran. Iran sent official request to every single administration (including Obama's) since 1988 demanding formal apology as a gesture of good will. All of them refused sticking to original line that airplane should not have been flying over combat zone, and that all blame is with air traffic control.

Cry me a river - "If you are going to blame:
- the airline for flying over that area ...then you're an idiot or just a down-right rotten person! "

That's what US government is saying for decades, but I'm a bit surprised that "cry me a river" is using such harsh words for them.

Guilty should be punished! Entire crew of USS Vincennes was decorated! Crew - Combat Action Ribbons, Captain William C. Rogers ("who told them to do it") - Legion of Merit, and Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, -"Navy Commendation Medal" for his ability to "quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure."

What do you think? Should culprits be sent to Hague or decorated and praised?

Commentator

“That's why Russian "win" from defeat to defeat”

• You know we f*ck everything that moves.
• We are winning the battle so we do not need to kill the innocent and thus attract foreign aid.

icj1, 19

“Russia shot down a Korean airliner killing 269 people”

It wasn’t the first Korean plane that we have shot down. Few years ago another Korean plane same deliberately ignored the offered the corridor. It also refused to obey our fighter plane. So it had been hit down the same way. But fortunately the pilots managed to land on ice. Bt during Reagan the other Korean pilot was less lucky. Today everybody knows that both provokations were organized by the Yanks. Hey like to provoke with planes. In 1988 they hit down an Iranian plane with 290 passengers and they even didn’t ask pardon. Then they sent planes to NY …

ATAMAN

The plane was hit down by one of the two Ukrainian planes that followed him. They used automatic machine gun because the plane was within Buk reach for 2 minutes only. It’s very little for 16 unexperienced officers on 4 vehicle complex to locate , lighten , seize , fire and guide the target. So they used the planes. It is seen on how the bullets entered the body of the plane. It’s the agony of the regime. A week ago I thought Ukraine will die before spring. Now I suppose it will happen before the New Year.

@Nikolle
Yes, that's exactly what my question implies, that it was no accident at all. I don't believe in accidents and especially in such accidents that give such an obvious advantage to your western masters. When your beloved Americans want to profit from a situation and use it in their propaganda warfare they have instantly at their disposal all the evidence of the world, satellite pictures, recorded dialogues, everything. When they want to conceal some of their own wrongdoings then the evidence disappears and is never found like the other malaysian airplane that vanished into thin air. But i guess that doesn't puzzle people like you. You keep on chewing on whatever CNN feeds you.
And a little english lesson free of charge just for you. The correct spelling is "you're giving glimpses" not "your giving glimpses". For such a smart person your english ain't that good, Einstein. Maybe you should work on that before calling other people stupid.

The US has started this ugly war and they are responsible for the events that take place even if they can't control them now.
It's so simple Nikolle. Surprised you don't see it.
(Peggy, 19 July 2014 04:27)

Hmmm, interesting, even when the only foreign soldiers in Ukraine are the ones from Russia, it is still US's war. That's like blaming Russia for the war in Iraq :)

icj1
I realized that I didn't respond to something you said.
First, what are we talking about?

I'm not getting into speculations who did it. Peter Sudyka did some here in well-measured comment I must say.

Issue on social networks is "civilian planes over warzones" and there are 2 sides in debate.
1. Shooters are guilty (whoever they are)
On this site - Nikolle, cry me a river...
2. Who sent the plane over warzone is guilty.
Long-standing view of US-governments, on this site Boris is leaning that way...

"And we can also look at the one where Russia shot down a Korean airliner..." 1983
First, it wasn't Russia, but Soviet Union (including Ukraine and others).
Second. NO. We can't. In the same way we can't look at 2001 Ukrainian military shooting down Russian airliner...
There were not airliners flying over warzones.
So, only those 2 are simmilar, almost identical cases. And two were flight was over combat zone.
It's only natural to compare those two.
I undestand that some people feel very strongly their oppinin is right one.
To "cry me a river" Boris is "down-right rotten and idiot" and America have been ran by those for decades. But, I can see some merit in both views and I'll explain where I stand.

Unfortunately the one who indirectly caused that misery ( NoBama Mamma Jamma) won't be in Hague, hell, he even has a Nobel Peace Prize...
(Ataman, 21 July 2014 15:40)
=======================
He already did. Double standards.

Peggy

“Iranians not important. The US can kill without consequences.”

Why nobody is speaking about the 6 Yugoslavian citizens aboard that plane ? Why nobody accented that the Iranians have not entered anyone’s territory like with the Korean plane 5 years before ? To say of the Russian plane hit in the Black sea 3 years after the Iranian. All peoples are equal but some are more equal than the others.

Blame everyone but the real perpetrators.
(cry me a river, 18 July 2014 17:26)
==============================
Yes, let's blame the real perpertrators but you and I differ on who that is.
QANTAS made sure they do not fly over that area. I can't understand why the rest of the airlines didn't take their example. If you are going to go in or over a warzone then you are a real fool and endangering so many lives in order to save fuel is a criminal act.
Also, how is the west so sure it was the Russians so quickly? As soon as this happened Putin was blamed. I smell a rat.

The easiest way to find the culprit of an action is to see who benefits from that.
(thanasis, 18 July 2014 18:35)

Exactly... Since the rebels in East Ukranine are not allowing OSCE observers access to the site, it is clear who the culprit is per your suggestion above.

Also, how is the west so sure it was the Russians so quickly? As soon as this happened Putin was blamed. I smell a rat.
(Peggy, 19 July 2014 04:19)

Because the Russians were quick to claim they did themselves (obviously before they understood that they had shot down a civilian airliner and not a Ukrainian military aircraft)...

@Sreten

What on Earth does that Iranian airliner have to do with anything? So what is your logic, if you steal, I should be allowed to steal too?

@Peggy

Dear me, its Russia that has its army in Ukraine, not the US. America really didn't cause this, no matter what you believe. As for your other point, that somehow the airliner itself is to blame, that is akin to blaming a woman for being raped, not the rapist. If she only hadn't dressed that way, talked that way....Your logic Peggy, is truly sickening.

tell me, do you also believe that 9/11 was an inside job?
(Nikolle, 21 July 2014 10:10)

I don't know. Why don't you ask the people who write you your paycheques?

. All peoples are equal but some are more equal than the others.
(rote, 22 July 2014 09:04)
=====================
I abusolutely agree with you and it all depends on which side of the fence you sit, especially if you sit on western side.
The west is rotten to the core but has a very good advertising firm.
Even if it turns out that Ukranians did this themselves to draw the world into this sh!t (and I can believe that is the case), we in the west will never hear about it.

@thanasis

Your question would imply that this was no accident. I very much doubt that whoever did this (and pro Russian groups are the most likely) would have done it had they known it was a civilian carrier. That however doesn't absolve them of blame. As for your other stupid question about the other airliner, no one has ever accused any pro Russian band for that. Your giving glimpses of your stupidity very often

regarding "the official" letter about losses of the UKR armed forces and home guard - ruSSian fascists are known for tampering evidence starting with Dzersinky and Ulyanov and continuing with uncle Joe - remember Katyn? you rats lost against your brethren german nazis MILLIONS of troops yet you claimed youe were winning. rememer Groznyi - countless bodies of ruSSian fascists which were played down. NO ONE but idiots believe your propaganda! the hard facts are avaailable to everyone
http://censor.net.ua/ or http://en.censor.net.ua/

and the funniest thing is that despite Zhirinovsky's call to boycott all the goods from the "rotting West" you all desire sooo much for that and would not survive a week without the West' s knowhow, products etc, including you dear comrade, slava KPSS!
and yet you dropped Serbs in KiM...that is why many of them hate you, including my Montenegro' s friends...

The comments on this board disparaging the victims is absurd. The more you talk the more you reinforce what is already known.

Scummy Serbs and Scummy Russians.

Things never turn out well for Russians or Serbians and we will see a continuation of that tradition in the foreseeable future. The perpetrators will be identified who committed this brazen act of murder. They will be punished. Just look at The Hague. Its overflowing with Serbian War Murderers. The tradition continues with that as well.

do not forget that according to news recently( weeks and days) several US warships, have entered the Black Sea region.

> No rote it is not the fault of the Ukrainian revolutionaries that this airplane was downed.
> It is the fault of the person who fired the missile and his commanding officer who told
> him to do it. Do not apportion blame to those who are blameless.
> (Nikolle, 18 July 2014 19:53)

Looking at the dialogs they had with each other, their logic - this is rather the fault of their parents who were allowed to have sex with each other. The death penalty would not "fix" so many bright people being dead because of few imbeciles.

I have to take responsibility for this kind of stone-age barbarism, idiocity and being a fourth-world cuntry if no one else does here. Unfortunately my apologies will not rise the honorable people from dead... neither will eliminate these so-called self-proclaimed "Russians" who should be rather called "neandertalians". That "by accident" the very same neandertals are responsible for horrfic ethnic crimes in Chechnya and Bosnia... What do you expect?
They should be in Hague long ago.

One explanation could be: the Presidential Airplane was roughly in the same area, returning from Brasil (as we know, Putin did attend the final game). And the Ukrainian regime tried to eliminate Putin (the usual stupid Soviet way). Than the direct blame is on Ukrainian army. But ultimately it merely expands the words "Soviet Union" in their worst sense to Ukraine. And "Ukrainian" language is barely any different from Russian than "Gheg" language from the "Tosk" one.

The easiest way to find the culprit of an action is to see who benefits from that. Does Russia somehow benefit from what has happened?
(thanasis

@thanasis and the 10 people who agree with you:
How do terrorists in the middle East benefit from committing atrocities?

(rote, 18 July 2014 22:48)

That's why Russian "win" from defeat to defeat. Odessa, Mariupol, Sloviansk, Kramatorsk. But after murdering 300 innocent civilians I'm pretty sure that many who were reluctant before will be more than willing to unleash hell onto your terrorist bandits.

@thanasis

stupidity continued eh? this is what you're implying, that the west has purposely downed a civilian airliner to make Russia look bad. ok, proof please. you have none, other than baseless conspiracies, accusations and dots which morons like you so easily believe. it is the same as me saying Russia is fueling the civil war in Iraq to make the US look bad. moronic. as for your attempt at a put down by picking on spelling errors, well, that is the last refuge of those who have zero arguments and point to typos as a way of feeling superior. since you seem to believe in nonsense, like the west downing a civilian aircraft that flew over Ukrainian airspace controlled by armed rebels, who incidentally enough had boasted at having blown up an aircraft at about the same time, posts which have since been removed, tell me, do you also believe that 9/11 was an inside job?

"I don't know. Why don't you ask the people who write you your paycheques?"

Trying to figure out what this means. My best theory is that this is an underhanded attempt to imply that I am in the payroll of the US or the West, or that I have blind allegiance to them. You obviously believe in conspiracies, so I see no reason why someone like you, wouldn't think that America carried out 9/11.

@Peter Sudyka

Your theorizing however, would imply that you think those in the west are inhumane enough to want to blow up an aircraft, with 80 children on board just so as to make Russia look bad. that you're backtracking now, is your problem. out of all the nonsense conspiracies here though, this line on thinking has to be the best: "Was the MH-17 plane deliberately directed into Donetsk in the hopes that Donetsk forces would mistakenly shoot it down or ..." Yes, I can see the people at the control tower now, clapping and sipping champagne when they realized that the plane was shot down, killing all civilians on board.

Hmmm, interesting, even when the only foreign soldiers in Ukraine are the ones from Russia, it is still US's war. That's like blaming Russia for the war in Iraq :)
(icj1, 21 July 2014 05:36)
=======================
Do try a little harder to think about it. I know you will get it eventually.

Dear me, its Russia that has its army in Ukraine, not the US. America really didn't cause this, no matter what you believe. As for your other point, that somehow the airliner itself is to blame, that is akin to blaming a woman for being raped, not the rapist. If she only hadn't dressed that way, talked that way....Your logic Peggy, is truly sickening.
(Nikolle, 21 July 2014 10:14)
======================
Do you really not get it or are you just pretending to be stupid?
The airliner had a responsibility not to endanger the passengers. If Malaysian Airlines were fine to fly there, why then has QANTAS been avoiding the area for four months? Why didn't QANATAS think it was OK?
The US started the whole mess by interfering in Ukranian affairs. They are very good at getting unrest in a country to happen.
I know that you know all this but to actually admit it is asking too much. In your mind Russia is always bad and the US good as long as they back Albanians. Once they don't any longer you will sing a different tune.
BTW, they are looking at starting a class action against Malaysia Airlines. Gee, I wonder why.

Which country shot down Iranian Air flight 655? I've forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

In this case - without any doubt - it was a bunch of "drunken gorillas" (sorry from gorillas!), not a trained team - hence the tragic "result".
(Ataman, 21 July 2014 15:31)
============================
Were thses "gorillas" breath tested? WEstern media has portrayed them this way but do we really know this for sure? How do they know?
Ataman, you are smarter than this.

(Captain Kosova, 19 July 2014 14:48)

Make sure that you have a lot of nappies on hand because Once the Russians change regimes in Romania you guys are next on Serb agenda – make sure you and your lot can swim.
Oh I forgot. What is the US of piss and wind going to do? NOTHING. Oh yes they will be wailing and tutting and calls of shame but that it baby.

What should I get that we should blame Russia for the war in Iraq?! That's the only conclusion if we follow your logic.
(icj1, 22 July 2014 04:03)
====================
Get off those magic mushies.

Nikolle

I am not backtracking on anything.

1) You ask what the West has to gain from shooting the plane down, so I ask you: what has Russia got to gain from shooting down an airliner with 80 children on board? How does this benefit them?

2) Why was the Malaysian Airlines flight rerouted over the Donbass region and why has the Ukrainian government not provided an answer as to why this was done? See the following Daily Mail link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696975/Putin-blames-Ukraine-loss-Flight-MH17-298-innocent-souls-DOESNT-deny-Russian-separatists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html

People blinded by this benevolence of America will obviously ignore these questions and just keep pointing the finger at Russia, regardless of the fact that an investigation into this affair has not even begun.

I am not saying it wasn't Russia (given their track record in Georgia and Chechnya), but I am trying to maintain some level of objectivity by not jumping on the bandwagon and pointing the finger automatically at Russia because 'Murca says so, given their track record for starting wars and hitting civilian infrastructure with guided missiles and strike aircraft.

Would never even think that I would ever agree with Robert-O or "cry me a river"... But unfortunately horrible things may happen.

So here is a link (skip the ad of course):

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article130292306/Beweist-dieses-Telefonat-wer-Flug-MH17-abschoss.html

Voices can be recognized and analyzed and investigated. Beyond that not much to investigate, only issue a 20+ year verdict or (better) a death penalty for the guilty, no mercy.

A very typical, characteristic to some most retarded village-dwellers dialog (starting at 2:04). The former dialogs, too, are pretty much revealing the intellectual level of the speakers... would nominate them for Nobel Prize, straight. The most mind-blowing, low-class, had probably difficulty to finish first 8 years in the local school... The accent and the grammar is to laugh about hysterically (if it wouldn't be that sad).

- По телевизору передают вроде бы... как этот... АН-26-ой, украинский транспортник
- (нууу)
- но гхгховорят написано на нём: "малазийские авиалинии". (tried to mirror the accent with that "гхгх")
- И чо он делал на территории Украины?
- Ну значит дово... завозили шпионов, в них на хуй, понял?
- Так точно!
- Щас война идёт, блядь
- Понял!

So either the self-incriminating video is a fake (yea, and I am Santa Claus) or it is not very tough to determine, who is guilty... and who can make a longer visit in Hague. Unfortunately there is no death penalty, to bad.

Let's look at second largest accident of this kind in history (290 victims).It involved USS Vincennes in Iranian waters.
(Sreten, 18 July 2014 19:01)

And we can also look at the one where Russia shot down a Korean airliner killing 269 people and even claiming that the aircraft had been on a spying mission (ridiculous, I know) after initially denying that Russia had shot it down...

So, now back to the aircraft that was shot down yesterday... what was your point?

The mentality is the biggest problem. This mentality is clearly demonstrated in the last part of the clip most in Russia consider to be a fake. The timing of some parts of it indeed could be a fake (some experts claimed that a part with timestamps from 16th of July is in the middle of two parts from 17th of July).

Unfortunately the most important message is 100% authentic to both "Kievians" and "Muscovites" (both parts being essentially "Russian" to a large degree).

That part is: "they deserved their fate, they were aliens here, so they would be spies".
Any alien (even if largely own!) body is automatically assumed to be "spies" unless proven innocent.

This is exactly what happened with me as I was not even 10 year old.
My dad and I spoke Hungarian in a food store in Moscow.
We were (verbally) attacked by an older woman who demanded we should stop speaking "Jewish language" (!)
We told her, it's Hungarian.
She told us: "than go back, you friggin American SPIES to your homeland in Israel".

For that imbecile anything unusual was from hell, set up straight by some American-Israeli-whatever spies.

Unfortunately it is enough for a single imbecile like that to be near a "Buk" station and just press the knob.

It is true, operating the "Buk" PROPERLY needs a trained team.

In this case - without any doubt - it was a bunch of "drunken gorillas" (sorry from gorillas!), not a trained team - hence the tragic "result".

In this case - without any doubt - it was a bunch of "drunken gorillas" (sorry from gorillas!), not a trained team - hence the tragic "result".
(Ataman, 21 July 2014 15:31)

You have any witnesses or proof like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDL-bTBLpmM

"You cannot dispute that."

I can dispute it. If the guy who fired the missile hadn't fired it, this wouldn't have happened.
(Nikolle, 24 July 2014 10:07)
=======================
And if Malaysian Airlines weren't stupid and cheap they would have avoided the area like others did and it wouldn't have happened.
If America kept their nose out of Ukraine and didn't depose a democratically elected government this mess would not have happened. So many ifs.
So stop with your stupidity already.

The easiest way to find the culprit of an action is to see who benefits from that.
(thanasis, 18 July 2014 18:35)
The question 'Who benefit from that' is one of the typical question used in russian media whenever they want to divert from an argument and steer it their own direction. It is used to end any argumentative discussion because the answer depends on personal believes and one can ignore any facts known about that subject. It opens doors to speculation, conspiracy theories, and propaganda phrases can be repeated over and over again.
All the facts known sofar point in only one direction. Russion serperatist shot down that plane with most likely the help of russian military, either through training them on these ground to air missels or activly assisting them when pushing the button.
Putin and the rest of the neo-facist russian politicians will not be able to convince the world they had nothing to do with it. The UN security council meeting yesterday already showed that. The russian UN guy got the cold sholder from the rest of the world and it became apparent, that he is fighting a loosing battle. Putin has been lying so many times since the Ukrain crisis started, that nobody believes a thing that comes out of his mouth anymore. He maneuvered himself and Russia in a corner where it is close to impossible to get out off again, and that makes him so much more dangerous. He has got the character of the despot, and could be inclined to do even more desasterous things.

Also, how is the west so sure it was the Russians so quickly? As soon as this happened Putin was blamed. I smell a rat.
(Peggy, 19 July 2014 04:19)
I actually choked on my drink reading this one, coming from someone who the very minute something happens they are quick to blame it on Albanians. Should we start posting the "rat smell" comment on your future posts.

Continuing...


What side ( was the flag black-blue-red or yellow-blue ) these gorillas did CLAIM to serve matters only a little.
If "black-blue-red" - than an other gorilla (NoBama Mamma) will beat his chest, that's the difference.

Fact is, this intra-gorilla domestic conflict went way to far, allowing neandertals to take over a place which should be in 21st century.

To answer the other post: yes, I know, there are (as usual) few more theories. Ultimately they do not make anything better or worse, even if true. We do claim, the neandertals pained in red+black or blue-yellow are essentially Russians. And of course, the neandertals painted in black-blue-red (or white-blue-red) are also Russians.
If that is true, the difference which site took down the MH-17 does not matter: they were neandertals pretending to be "Russian" (or self-proclaimed "Ukrainian" neandertals - who are not any different than Russian neandertals).

That is - they are in first line neandertals and their video clips (fake or not) are the proof.

So yes, I am accusing both sides to be neandertals and I demand both sides to be taken to Hague for 20+ years.

Unfortunately the one who indirectly caused that misery ( NoBama Mamma Jamma) won't be in Hague, hell, he even has a Nobel Peace Prize...

Finishing:

Rarely was thinking I can write a strongly Anti-Russian and Anti-American post the same time.
But here it is, unfortunately. I write what I feel, feeling really mad about this kind of retards and mad about politicians who are "clever" creators of this situation.

The lesson here: the political change should proceed cautiously AFTER economic reforms.
See China (Mainland), Korea (South), Taiwan, VietNam... versus disasters like Soviet Union or Yugoslavia.

With all respect to Tienanmen... Chinese were lucky, their "orange revolution" was indefinitely postponed.
Same about Taiwan after Chang Kai-shek.

The US started the whole mess by interfering in Ukranian affairs. They are very good at getting unrest in a country to happen.
(Peggy, 21 July 2014 15:05)

Ah, OK... My bad for believing the evil CNN, BBC, etc.. when they say that it's Russian soldiers occupying Ukraine's Crimea. Based on your post, it appears it's American soldiers who are occupying Crimea and thus interfering in Ukrainian affairs.

Hmmm, interesting, even when the only foreign soldiers in Ukraine are the ones from Russia, it is still US's war. That's like blaming Russia for the war in Iraq :)
(icj1, 21 July 2014 05:36)
===…==
Do try a little harder to think about it. I know you will get it eventually.
(Peggy, 21 July 2014 14:57)

What should I get that we should blame Russia for the war in Iraq?! That's the only conclusion if we follow your logic.

"And we can also look at the one where Russia shot down a Korean airliner..." 1983
First, it wasn't Russia, but Soviet Union (including Ukraine and others).
(Sreten, 21 July 2014 07:50)

Nope, you are wrong. Russia and Soviet Union are legally the same thing otherwise, for example, Russia would not be a permanent member of the Security Council.

Succeeding the Soviet Union does not mean inheriting only the good things; it also means inheriting the bad things.

What should I get that we should blame Russia for the war in Iraq?! That's the only conclusion if we follow your logic.
(icj1, 22 July 2014 04:03)
===…==
Get off those magic mushies.
(Peggy, 22 July 2014 12:42)

That's what you were using when you implied that we should blame Russia for the war in Iraq based on your logic?

Why nobody accented that the Iranians have not entered anyone’s territory like with the Korean plane 5 years before ?
(rote, 22 July 2014 09:04)

Woow, so airlines should stop entering Russia's airspace because Russia is a rogue country that might shoot them down

yet more stupid points.

"You ask what the West has to gain from shooting the plane down, " where have I posed any such question?
"what has Russia got to gain from shooting down an airliner with 80 children on board? How does this benefit them?" the phrasing of this, would imply that I asserted the plane downing was no accident. I have maintained throughout that this wouldn't have happened had the person who fired the missile, known that it was a civilian aircraft. It still doesn't absolve him of blame.
you on the other hand, speculated that its not beyond the realms of possibility that the west or Ukraine would have shot this down to besmirch Russia. apparently, Putin is humane enough to not have ordered it, but those in the west aren't. it is right here on your first post. speculation like that, belongs in Oliver Stone movies. but since we have people who see dots where I don't, tell me, why did those Russian bandits post and then remove their brags at having shot down an aircraft at just about the same time? why have they, according to numerous reports been obstructing the investigation? why did they keep the black box from them for a few days? you see, i too can play this speculative game

"The airliner had a responsibility not to endanger the passengers."

who says they didn't? but the guy who fired the missile was within his right to blow a civilian carrier out of the sky? as i wrote before, your line of thinking blames a woman for being raped. its disgusting.

who says they didn't? but the guy who fired the missile was within his right to blow a civilian carrier out of the sky? as i wrote before, your line of thinking blames a woman for being raped. its disgusting.
(Nikolle, 23 July 2014 19:42)
====================================
Really sick of you using that analogy. Trying for the maximum effect are you?
Of course a woman is NEVER at fault for being raped but there are measures everyone can take to minimize the likelyhood of a bad outcome. Why then has QANTAS avoided the area for the last four months? I'll tell you, it's because they are making sure their passengers are put first and every care is taken that they will not be put at risk.
So yes, the person firing on the plane is also at fault, be it a mistake or deliberate, but if Malaysia Airlines took as much care as QANTAS did then this would have been avoide. You cannot dispute that.
A class action against the airline is coming and rightly so.

"You cannot dispute that."

I can dispute it. If the guy who fired the missile hadn't fired it, this wouldn't have happened.

(CG, 19 July 2014 16:29
One would think with such convictions, that one would not even consider reading or posting in a western language, much less live under such horrible freedoms imposed on western people as you probably do.

Other airlines avoided the area, why not them? They failed.
(Peggy, 21 July 2014 23:07)

Wrong! Other airliners flew in that flight path before and after MH17. Was that imprudent? Perhaps... Airlines put too much faith on the fact that Russia was not that reckless to put such dangerous toys on rebels' hands in East Ukraine who have the same IQ as our dear friend Rote, here... Give, for example, a nuclear missile to Rote, and he/she will fire it at evil America without thinking twice about the consequences.

99.9% of the responsibility for shooting the aircraft down is with those who pulled the trigger. Otherwise it's like saying that it is the Serbs who are responsible for something like this http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2011&mm=06&dd=28&nav_id=75163 and not those throwing the stones since the Serbs could have avoided that by avoiding the area.

Which country shot down Iranian Air flight 655? I've forgotten.

[link]
(Asteri, 21 July 2014 15:51)

It's totally irrelevant to what is being discussed here, but anyway you can find more information here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

First, it wasn't Russia, but Soviet Union (including Ukraine and others).
(Sreten, 21 July 2014 07:50)
If you ever get a buyer for that load of crap let us all know. Everyone knows that the Soviet Union was nothing more than Russia with a bunch of slave countries that were able to break free when Russia went broke and no longer could control them.

a lot is left again in your article, and it all points in one direction; the russian seperatists shot down this plane by accident.
minutes after the 777 was shot down, one of their russian commanders pourdly posted on the russian equivalent of Facebook that they had just shot down a ukrainian transport plane right where the 777 finally came down. Even a picure was included, which looks the same as the one everybody has seen by now from the downed Malaysian 777. Some russian news media also reported the same. That posting was later on deleted when it was clear that a civilian plane was hit.
At the same time Ukrainian survailance recorded a conversation between the seperatists and russian commanders which shows the same. First they report that they just shut down a military transport plane, and than shockingly realized that it was a civilian plane when the their people reached the site of the disaster. The voice of the russian commander obvioulsy is pretty well known and they even know his name.
All sounds like an accident, but the responsibily lies with the russian separatists and Russia itself. They support these terrorists and Putin's Russia will have to pay the bill. Russia will loose even more credibility, and will have to live with the consequences.
This will also not make it easier for Serbia to keep up their current support for Russia, and the west, which is infuriated, will strongly demand now that serbian foreign policy will come in line with western policy.

The Russian terrorist leader himself confirmed that they shot down a plan at 17:50. The tweet went through Twitter and VK. Only when they discovered that the Russian terrorists murdered 300 civilians, among them 80 kids, they removed everything, including the picture of a Buk17 launcher with which they bragged about a few days ago.

Russia has (more) bloods on her hands. It is well overdue to stand up and stop those mass murderers. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

Everything is the fault of the US crowd is at it again. How on earth is this tragic event the fault of America? How stupid are you people? It flew over the airspace of another state, controlled by armed factions of a rebel group. The likeliest scenario is that those pro-Russian people shot it down, knowingly or not. But of course, logic is cryptonite for those who think themselves smart and who hide behind words like geopolitics. It doesn't take much for them to blame the West

It's so funny that sj thinks there's "not a shred of evidence" for the fact that Serb forces killed 8000+ at Srebrenica, yet he KNOWS the 'real story' behind the downed jetliner.

3 mass graves worth of bones painstakingly cross-examined with the DNA of living relatives over the course of 10 years = FAKE

Whatever happens to fit with my wishful thinking = IRONCLAD TRUTH

"Russian President Vladimir Putin said that the Ukrainian authorities were responsible for the crash, saying the tragedy would not have happened had Kiev not launched a military offensive in the east of the country."

Might be true, but not the whole truth and a lot of twisting the facts.

With the same reasoing I could say: Russia is responsible for the crash, because if Russia wouldn't have annexed Crimea, then the separatists in eastern Ukraine wouldn't have felt encouraged to spread their terror there, thus they wouldn't have stolen anti-aircraft missiles from usurped Ukrainian military bases, thus the the plane wouldn't have grounded.

But it's likely that the separatist shot down the plane, they even were boasting about having grounded a plane in social media at exactly that time, but they were talking about having shot down a Ukrainian military plane.

Anyway, condolences to the innocent victims.

talking a real nonsense...ukrainianas want to speak in Ukrainian in Ukraine but ruSSian fascists want everybody to talk their ugly language - so drop the ridiculous "nazi" blabber. RuSSIans in Ukraine and in other exSU states are like Albanians in Serbian province KiM - intruders - who want to expel all indigenous people, or better to kill all of them... but what tcan one expect from ruSSian vatniki? 2 friends ruSSians and germans celebrating the beginning of WWII - http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20070508.php
http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20080412.php

collaboration of ruSSian NKVD and german Gestapo - irrefutable evidence.
http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20061225.php

by the way...everyone knows how finns "started" the Winter War - bloody ruSSian provocateurs!!! you won't get away with the shooting down of an airliner, mark my words! Of course - you have your friend Kadyrov- who killed the first russian when he was 16 and according to him he has killed more than 100 of yours - backing you since you alone are not able to fight ukrainian patriots..lol

TO ALL WHO STIL HAVE A HOPE OF DEFEATING THE RUSSIANS IN UKRAINE.

Here we have a leak of the heavy losses the Americans and their Nazi Sonderkommand are suffering in the Ukraine.

http://www.euromaidanu.net/archives/831

Thus in between June 9 and 15 they lost 1600 killed , 4723 wounded , also 35 tanks , 96 armored vehicles , 38 artillery units , 7 planes , 2 helicopters , 104 trucks. Our losses the enemy estimated as 48 killed , 64 wounded , 2 anks , 5 martyrs ect. It’s a very sad story and we must clean Ukraine as soon as possible hopefully before the New Year.

(bez_cenzure,

You're right.The most convenient explanation for the US and its puppet regime in Kiev is to apportion the blame for the Malaysian plane's crash on Russia.It does remind me a similar incident in Syria when Assad was accused by the US and Turkey of using Sarin gas against civiians only for journalist Seymour Hersh to reveal in his article published at the London Review of Books on April 17 2014 that it was Turkey which organized the Aug. 21, 2013 chemical attack in Syria to provoke world public opinion leading to a U.S. intervention in the country.

For the ordinary layman the first question coming in mind is what did Russia and the fighters operating in eastern Ukraine have to gain by downing a civilian airliner?The answer is absolutely nothing and everything to lose by allowing the propagandists across the West to have a field day and pinning the blame on Russia and anti-Kiev fighters in eastern Ukraine.The way I see it this incident is probably the last throw of the dice for the US and its puppet regime in Ukraine.Militarily the regime was torn apart in Eastern Ukraine with a number of military units either destroyed and at the political level the US was losing the war on sanctions.At the last EU meeting nine countries including Germany,France and Italy decided against any meaningful sanctions knowing pretty well the effects of such actions would've had on their own feeble economies.The US and their agent Poroshenko have a lot to answer.

The western media and US officials had already made their verdict before anything was known about the crash. The fact that the US looked immediately with its usual disregard about the facts to blame Russia and Hillary Clinton talked about how the Europeans who doubted Russia being the aggressor in Ukraine will now have to "make up their mind" and "work closer with the US" clearly shows that this was another false flag carried out by the US and the Kiev regime to isolate and put pressure on Russia and persuade the wobbly Europeans that following America ( to its fast-approaching end) is the only way. Where others see a tragedy they always see an opportunity.

I see no reason why it would be in Russia's interest to shoot this plane down. They have been avoiding armed conflict in the Eastern Ukraine, even though they could have technically stepped in by now if they wanted to. They could have also introduced a no-fly zone earlier, and they didn't, since Ukrainian attack aircraft have been hitting civilian infrastructure in the East of the country.

I see no reason why any separatist rebel group would have done it either (perhaps a tiny chance that it was a mistake, though I seriously doubt that, given the plane was flying at 33,000 feet and the Buk system had to have been operated by someone with intel).

Could have been the Ukrainian government? Very possible, since they stand more to gain by getting very real support from the West in terms of military aid, something they cannot do without if they had to rely on their own devices against Russia.

Could it have been the USA/West? While Eastward expansion of Euro-Atlantic influence is a key strategy, I think that shooting down an airliner in order to smear Russia is stretching it very far, since this will very likely end in some kind of military conflict and they surely wouldn't want one with someone as powerful as Russia (this is no Iraq, Syria, Serbia etc.), so what would they stand to gain? Not as much as the Ukrainian government, unless it would mean writing off the severe debts that the West is up to their ears in?

I wonder how this will play out in future.

Hi Peter !

You gave a very good comment but I have something to add :

1/ The developments on the battlefield where Kiev is retreating in all directions do not push the Russian side to such horrible provocations. American striking forces including both Polish battalions (Azov and Kavkaz) are surrounded. Besides it’s not the Russian way of solving problems.

2/ The American side has got a lot of experience of provoking wars so their people in Kiev are the main suspects if we talk about a deliberate attack. Technically they have Buk and S-200 missiles.

3/ Anyway I suppose that the plane has been hit by mistake. No matter who’s mistake it was if not the fascist riot in Kiev thousands of people in Ukraine and Hollande would be alive.
4/ Best if we wait the results of the investigation. As I heard the truth cannot be concealed.

RIP to each and every victim. But for the grace of god... Obama just announced we had at least 1 American onboard - I believe more. It all originates from Russia, of course, which means killer Putin. Remember Milosevic in the 90s? Then you get the picture. http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-mh17-audio-buk-russia/25462008.html

The easiest way to find the culprit of an action is to see who benefits from that. Does Russia somehow benefit from what has happened? I think the answer is no and that's something even the antirussians will have to admit. And by the way, what happened to that other malaysian plane that's still missing and was heading toward Diego Garcia? Did the Russian separatists shoot that down too?

When I first heard the news I immediately thought of all the moronic comments I was going to read on B92.
People like Peter, rote, Leonidas and the rest suspeneded their logic, or hunamity, and immediately decided to place blame on Kiev and the West at the same time absolving Putin and his pack from the crime.

I think we ALL know who is guilty here.
If you are going to blame:
- the airline for flying over that area
- Kiev for exercising their right to dethrone a corrupt puppet and stand up for freedom
- West for promoting freedom ...

then you're an idiot or just a down-right rotten person!

LEt's also blame the kids of Srebrenica who were mercilessly slaughtered for having been born in the first place. How dare they?

Blame everyone but the real perpetrators.

The comments on this board disparaging the victims is absurd. The more you talk the more you reinforce what is already known.

Scummy Serbs and Scummy Russians.

Things never turn out well for Russians or Serbians and we will see a continuation of that tradition in the foreseeable future. The perpetrators will be identified who committed this brazen act of murder. They will be punished. Just look at The Hague. Its overflowing with Serbian War Murderers. The tradition continues with that as well.

The easiest way to find the culprit of an action is to see who benefits from that. Does Russia somehow benefit from what has happened?
(thanasis

@thanasis and the 10 people who agree with you:
How do terrorists in the middle East benefit from committing atrocities?

The easiest way to find the culprit of an action is to see who benefits from that.
(thanasis, 18 July 2014 18:35)

Exactly... Since the rebels in East Ukranine are not allowing OSCE observers access to the site, it is clear who the culprit is per your suggestion above.

No rote it is not the fault of the Ukrainian revolutionaries that this airplane was downed. It is the fault of the person who fired the missile and his commanding officer who told him to do it. Do not apportion blame to those who are blameless.

Hassan aka john

When Russia stands up trolls like yourself and bob will look to dig a hole to survive.As for blood ask your protectors the us and your turkish ancestors how much blood they have on their hands.

Peter I didn’t mean to hurt you. Everybody knows that in Ukraine we have volunteers from most European countries fighting against us. It is what we always expect as well as the legions to “march march Domrovsky…” It’s very routine but something tells me that you personally do not approve it. This two mentioned battalions are reportedly composed of the Poles (above 50%) and Lithuanians plus other International Soldiers of Fortune. Poles were not noticed in massacres. Traditionally they guard most vital objects like Karachun Hill (Black Death) near Slavinsk or airport of Luganks. Also Azov entered Mariupol. Most often Poles speak Russian and close their eyes at the fact that they serve to Kolomoisky Jewish mad dog. Search for польские чвк в украине * польские наемники на украине * польские наемники на горе карачун * польские наемники на майдане * польские батальоны на украине in Russian web and enter the below links for more information.

http://nvua.net/ukraine/FT-Poroshenko-prinyal-reshenie-o-voennyh-deystviyah-v-Donbase-pod-davleniem-1983.html

http://ruskline.ru/opp/2014/7/16/demontazh_ukrainy_prodolzhaetsya_valcmanporoshenko_pered_restituciej_formiruet_batalon_iz_soldat_nato/

http://nk.org.ua/politika/84783-za-chto-voyuyut-na-ukraine-polskie-eskadrony-smerti

Since the plane downing.

Putin has been doing to Ukraine the kind of things that Milosevic did in his region.

Putin is going to go downhill from now on. His credibility is rubbished.

Hopefully he will straighten up his ways after this horrific event.

Or resign.

More likely he will continue to hide behind his own lies and his own propaganda.

Like Milosevic did.

Russia deserves better.

Malaysia deserves better..

Let's look at second largest accident of this kind in history (290 victims).It involved USS Vincennes in Iranian waters.
(Sreten, 18 July 2014 19:01)

And we can also look at the one where Russia shot down a Korean airliner killing 269 people and even claiming that the aircraft had been on a spying mission (ridiculous, I know) after initially denying that Russia had shot it down...

So, now back to the aircraft that was shot down yesterday... what was your point?

(rote, 18 July 2014 22:48)

That's why Russian "win" from defeat to defeat. Odessa, Mariupol, Sloviansk, Kramatorsk. But after murdering 300 innocent civilians I'm pretty sure that many who were reluctant before will be more than willing to unleash hell onto your terrorist bandits.

The easiest way to find the culprit of an action is to see who benefits from that.
(thanasis, 18 July 2014 18:35)
The question 'Who benefit from that' is one of the typical question used in russian media whenever they want to divert from an argument and steer it their own direction. It is used to end any argumentative discussion because the answer depends on personal believes and one can ignore any facts known about that subject. It opens doors to speculation, conspiracy theories, and propaganda phrases can be repeated over and over again.
All the facts known sofar point in only one direction. Russion serperatist shot down that plane with most likely the help of russian military, either through training them on these ground to air missels or activly assisting them when pushing the button.
Putin and the rest of the neo-facist russian politicians will not be able to convince the world they had nothing to do with it. The UN security council meeting yesterday already showed that. The russian UN guy got the cold sholder from the rest of the world and it became apparent, that he is fighting a loosing battle. Putin has been lying so many times since the Ukrain crisis started, that nobody believes a thing that comes out of his mouth anymore. He maneuvered himself and Russia in a corner where it is close to impossible to get out off again, and that makes him so much more dangerous. He has got the character of the despot, and could be inclined to do even more desasterous things.

regarding "the official" letter about losses of the UKR armed forces and home guard - ruSSian fascists are known for tampering evidence starting with Dzersinky and Ulyanov and continuing with uncle Joe - remember Katyn? you rats lost against your brethren german nazis MILLIONS of troops yet you claimed youe were winning. rememer Groznyi - countless bodies of ruSSian fascists which were played down. NO ONE but idiots believe your propaganda! the hard facts are avaailable to everyone
http://censor.net.ua/ or http://en.censor.net.ua/

and the funniest thing is that despite Zhirinovsky's call to boycott all the goods from the "rotting West" you all desire sooo much for that and would not survive a week without the West' s knowhow, products etc, including you dear comrade, slava KPSS!
and yet you dropped Serbs in KiM...that is why many of them hate you, including my Montenegro' s friends...

rote

1) Azov Battalion is Ukrainian, not Polish. I am not familiar with any Kavkaz Battalion, but this is even less a name that any Polish battalion would choose for themselves. Also, like there are no official Russian forces involved in the East, there are also no American and Polish ones either, unless you count military advisers/trainers, mercenaries and foreign volunteers in independent militias, but in this case they are individuals, not regular armed forces, and this phenomenon is seen on both sides of this conflict.

4) I am suspicious of any investigation into this affair. All too many times we have seen conflicting information coming from both sides involved in such an investigation and this time will be no different. Can we really say we will ever have a truly independent investigation in such a matter? I am not sure.

@Sreten

What on Earth does that Iranian airliner have to do with anything? So what is your logic, if you steal, I should be allowed to steal too?

@Peggy

Dear me, its Russia that has its army in Ukraine, not the US. America really didn't cause this, no matter what you believe. As for your other point, that somehow the airliner itself is to blame, that is akin to blaming a woman for being raped, not the rapist. If she only hadn't dressed that way, talked that way....Your logic Peggy, is truly sickening.

And indeed, what I should have said earlier, sincerest condoloence to the innocent victims of this tragedy and game between the powers that be.

Why didn't US take responsibility for Iran Air disaster?

New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/15/world/iran-falls-short-in-drive-at-un-to-condemn-us-in-airbus-case.html

Vice President George H W Bush, later President, later father of President...

"Vice President Bush, in answering the Iranian, offered no new information on the incident. Instead he reiterated the Reagan Administration's view that the trouble began when Iranian gunboats fired on an American helicopter from the Vincennes and that the Iranian authorities should have diverted the plane from crossing virtually over the American cruiser. ''They allowed a civilian aircraft loaded with passengers to proceed on a path over a warship engaged in battle,'' Mr. Bush said. ''That was irresponsible and a tragic error.''

Iran tried to point out that skirmish just happened and that "... the plane was completely unaware of the battle scene below it while the cruiser was equally unaware the plane was openly transmitting normal civilian radio talk. " but to no avail.
US position is that civilian aeroplanes need not fly over war zones, and it's a mistake of flight control.
Now this! The only difference is that "skirmish" in Ukraine didn't just start but planes have been shot down for a while.
Do we believe US government that "shooter is responsible", or do we believe US government that Ukrainian flight control is responsible for not diverting the plane from war zone? What's your opinion?

It doesn't take much for them to blame the West
(Nikolle, 18 July 2014 12:36)
=======================
When you start a chain reaction and it get gets worse and worse whose fault is it? Yours. The US has started this ugly war and they are responsible for the events that take place even if they can't control them now.
It's so simple Nikolle. Surprised you don't see it.

Western scum has gotten what it deserved!

They started this conflict by starting riots in Kiev and deposing the legal Ukranian government and now their people died!

And I don`t give a hoot about it as long as no Russians are harmed!

Russia should declare war on Ukraine,conquer it and get rid of non Russians!
After that,annex it ,same goes with Belarus and kazakstan in the long run!

Putin,there is no point in talking with AngloSaxons like there was no point in reasoning with Hitler!

The fascist West must be defeated in Ukraine,now is the time to escalate the conflict big time!

Also, how is the west so sure it was the Russians so quickly? As soon as this happened Putin was blamed. I smell a rat.
(Peggy, 19 July 2014 04:19)

Because the Russians were quick to claim they did themselves (obviously before they understood that they had shot down a civilian airliner and not a Ukrainian military aircraft)...

The US has started this ugly war and they are responsible for the events that take place even if they can't control them now.
It's so simple Nikolle. Surprised you don't see it.
(Peggy, 19 July 2014 04:27)

Hmmm, interesting, even when the only foreign soldiers in Ukraine are the ones from Russia, it is still US's war. That's like blaming Russia for the war in Iraq :)

@thanasis

stupidity continued eh? this is what you're implying, that the west has purposely downed a civilian airliner to make Russia look bad. ok, proof please. you have none, other than baseless conspiracies, accusations and dots which morons like you so easily believe. it is the same as me saying Russia is fueling the civil war in Iraq to make the US look bad. moronic. as for your attempt at a put down by picking on spelling errors, well, that is the last refuge of those who have zero arguments and point to typos as a way of feeling superior. since you seem to believe in nonsense, like the west downing a civilian aircraft that flew over Ukrainian airspace controlled by armed rebels, who incidentally enough had boasted at having blown up an aircraft at about the same time, posts which have since been removed, tell me, do you also believe that 9/11 was an inside job?

tell me, do you also believe that 9/11 was an inside job?
(Nikolle, 21 July 2014 10:10)

I don't know. Why don't you ask the people who write you your paycheques?

Which country shot down Iranian Air flight 655? I've forgotten.

[link]
(Asteri, 21 July 2014 15:51)

It's totally irrelevant to what is being discussed here, but anyway you can find more information here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Hmmm, interesting, even when the only foreign soldiers in Ukraine are the ones from Russia, it is still US's war. That's like blaming Russia for the war in Iraq :)
(icj1, 21 July 2014 05:36)
===…==
Do try a little harder to think about it. I know you will get it eventually.
(Peggy, 21 July 2014 14:57)

What should I get that we should blame Russia for the war in Iraq?! That's the only conclusion if we follow your logic.

No formal investigation yet, but everything indicates that plane has been shot down. As they point this was the worst such accident (military shooting down civilian flights) in history (298 victims) reactions are from shock to fury and rage. Everyone (including US government) speaks with one voice "shooter is responsible". Are there any diverging opinions?
Yes. US government is no stranger to claiming opposing things, sometimes at ones.
Let's look at second largest accident of this kind in history (290 victims).It involved USS Vincennes in Iranian waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

" The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits."

"Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path."

In the end US agreed to pay compensation that outraged Iran, who noted Libya is paying 30 times as much for Lockerbie, but...

" However, the United States has never admitted responsibility, nor apologized to Iran"

@thanasis

Your question would imply that this was no accident. I very much doubt that whoever did this (and pro Russian groups are the most likely) would have done it had they known it was a civilian carrier. That however doesn't absolve them of blame. As for your other stupid question about the other airliner, no one has ever accused any pro Russian band for that. Your giving glimpses of your stupidity very often

Also, how is the west so sure it was the Russians so quickly? As soon as this happened Putin was blamed. I smell a rat.
(Peggy, 19 July 2014 04:19)
I actually choked on my drink reading this one, coming from someone who the very minute something happens they are quick to blame it on Albanians. Should we start posting the "rat smell" comment on your future posts.

Dear me, its Russia that has its army in Ukraine, not the US. America really didn't cause this, no matter what you believe. As for your other point, that somehow the airliner itself is to blame, that is akin to blaming a woman for being raped, not the rapist. If she only hadn't dressed that way, talked that way....Your logic Peggy, is truly sickening.
(Nikolle, 21 July 2014 10:14)
======================
Do you really not get it or are you just pretending to be stupid?
The airliner had a responsibility not to endanger the passengers. If Malaysian Airlines were fine to fly there, why then has QANTAS been avoiding the area for four months? Why didn't QANATAS think it was OK?
The US started the whole mess by interfering in Ukranian affairs. They are very good at getting unrest in a country to happen.
I know that you know all this but to actually admit it is asking too much. In your mind Russia is always bad and the US good as long as they back Albanians. Once they don't any longer you will sing a different tune.
BTW, they are looking at starting a class action against Malaysia Airlines. Gee, I wonder why.

The US started the whole mess by interfering in Ukranian affairs. They are very good at getting unrest in a country to happen.
(Peggy, 21 July 2014 15:05)

Ah, OK... My bad for believing the evil CNN, BBC, etc.. when they say that it's Russian soldiers occupying Ukraine's Crimea. Based on your post, it appears it's American soldiers who are occupying Crimea and thus interfering in Ukrainian affairs.

"And we can also look at the one where Russia shot down a Korean airliner..." 1983
First, it wasn't Russia, but Soviet Union (including Ukraine and others).
(Sreten, 21 July 2014 07:50)

Nope, you are wrong. Russia and Soviet Union are legally the same thing otherwise, for example, Russia would not be a permanent member of the Security Council.

Succeeding the Soviet Union does not mean inheriting only the good things; it also means inheriting the bad things.

If investigators ever determine who are the culpable parties responsible for shooting down this particular Malaysia Airlines aircraft (even if it's determined to be an unintentional act) the question is how easy or how difficult would it be for investigators and or passengers' family members to initiate legal actions or proceedings against liable parties?

Blame everyone but the real perpetrators.
(cry me a river, 18 July 2014 17:26)
==============================
Yes, let's blame the real perpertrators but you and I differ on who that is.
QANTAS made sure they do not fly over that area. I can't understand why the rest of the airlines didn't take their example. If you are going to go in or over a warzone then you are a real fool and endangering so many lives in order to save fuel is a criminal act.
Also, how is the west so sure it was the Russians so quickly? As soon as this happened Putin was blamed. I smell a rat.

Another coward Albanian


ruSSian fascists want everybody to talk their ugly language …

• Sounds as good as Jewish Fascists! Good joke ! But only a finished idiot can call the great Russian language UGLY … Is language of Kelmendi something better than the language of Pushkin ? Then you have problems with your health.

RuSSIans in Ukraine and in other exSU states are like Albanians in Serbian province KiM – intruders …

• Only a heavy wounded moron can say that Russians are intruders to their own Ukraine.

ruSSian vatniki

• Though I prefer being called MOSKAL well be it VATNIKS … VATNIKS are the proudest people in the world refusing to kiss overseas asses. Also VATNIKS saved the world from all kinds of fascism including the Ukrainian one. Besides we have opened the cosmic era, we are the biggest energy power and we have more nukes than your Master , our missils of all types are the best and nothing can compare with our submarines ect. So VATNIK sounds very proud!

collaboration of ruSSian NKVD and german Gestapo …

• This I refuse to comment because NKVD f*cked both Gestapo Abwehr to and fro. As a result Kanaris was shot own by Hitler and Mueller flew to the USA to host thousands of the fascists in 1945-47.

By the way main words in the Russian hymn are СЛАВЬСЯ ОТЕЧЕСТВО НАШЕ СВОБОДНОЕ ! Don’t you find that it sounds more optimistic than the main and tragic worlds in the Ukrainian hymn ЩЕ НЕ ВМЕРЛА УКРАИНА … I think that ВЖЕ ВМЕРЛА !

"I don't know. Why don't you ask the people who write you your paycheques?"

Trying to figure out what this means. My best theory is that this is an underhanded attempt to imply that I am in the payroll of the US or the West, or that I have blind allegiance to them. You obviously believe in conspiracies, so I see no reason why someone like you, wouldn't think that America carried out 9/11.

@Peter Sudyka

Your theorizing however, would imply that you think those in the west are inhumane enough to want to blow up an aircraft, with 80 children on board just so as to make Russia look bad. that you're backtracking now, is your problem. out of all the nonsense conspiracies here though, this line on thinking has to be the best: "Was the MH-17 plane deliberately directed into Donetsk in the hopes that Donetsk forces would mistakenly shoot it down or ..." Yes, I can see the people at the control tower now, clapping and sipping champagne when they realized that the plane was shot down, killing all civilians on board.

Which country shot down Iranian Air flight 655? I've forgotten.

[link]
(Asteri, 21 July 2014 15:51)
====================
Iranians not important. The US can kill without consequences.
Any loss of life, especially civilian is tragic and all care has to be taken to avoid that.
Having said that, Malaysian Airlines had a responsibility to their passengers first and not saving fuel which they didn't this time. Other airlines avoided the area, why not them? They failed.
No wonder a class suit is going to happen.

Other airlines avoided the area, why not them? They failed.
(Peggy, 21 July 2014 23:07)

Wrong! Other airliners flew in that flight path before and after MH17. Was that imprudent? Perhaps... Airlines put too much faith on the fact that Russia was not that reckless to put such dangerous toys on rebels' hands in East Ukraine who have the same IQ as our dear friend Rote, here... Give, for example, a nuclear missile to Rote, and he/she will fire it at evil America without thinking twice about the consequences.

99.9% of the responsibility for shooting the aircraft down is with those who pulled the trigger. Otherwise it's like saying that it is the Serbs who are responsible for something like this http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2011&mm=06&dd=28&nav_id=75163 and not those throwing the stones since the Serbs could have avoided that by avoiding the area.

First, it wasn't Russia, but Soviet Union (including Ukraine and others).
(Sreten, 21 July 2014 07:50)
If you ever get a buyer for that load of crap let us all know. Everyone knows that the Soviet Union was nothing more than Russia with a bunch of slave countries that were able to break free when Russia went broke and no longer could control them.

pee me a river

People like Peter, rote, Leonidas ,,,
• Good company thanks for the complement !

immediately decided to place blame on Kiev and the West
• Why call yourself a moron ? You are just little informed because nobody here makes conclusions yet. We wait for the commission to start working while Kiev is already banning their job. Why should they ?

STOP YOUR HISTERIA IT WON’T HELP !!!

> No rote it is not the fault of the Ukrainian revolutionaries that this airplane was downed.
> It is the fault of the person who fired the missile and his commanding officer who told
> him to do it. Do not apportion blame to those who are blameless.
> (Nikolle, 18 July 2014 19:53)

Looking at the dialogs they had with each other, their logic - this is rather the fault of their parents who were allowed to have sex with each other. The death penalty would not "fix" so many bright people being dead because of few imbeciles.

I have to take responsibility for this kind of stone-age barbarism, idiocity and being a fourth-world cuntry if no one else does here. Unfortunately my apologies will not rise the honorable people from dead... neither will eliminate these so-called self-proclaimed "Russians" who should be rather called "neandertalians". That "by accident" the very same neandertals are responsible for horrfic ethnic crimes in Chechnya and Bosnia... What do you expect?
They should be in Hague long ago.

One explanation could be: the Presidential Airplane was roughly in the same area, returning from Brasil (as we know, Putin did attend the final game). And the Ukrainian regime tried to eliminate Putin (the usual stupid Soviet way). Than the direct blame is on Ukrainian army. But ultimately it merely expands the words "Soviet Union" in their worst sense to Ukraine. And "Ukrainian" language is barely any different from Russian than "Gheg" language from the "Tosk" one.

@Nikolle
Yes, that's exactly what my question implies, that it was no accident at all. I don't believe in accidents and especially in such accidents that give such an obvious advantage to your western masters. When your beloved Americans want to profit from a situation and use it in their propaganda warfare they have instantly at their disposal all the evidence of the world, satellite pictures, recorded dialogues, everything. When they want to conceal some of their own wrongdoings then the evidence disappears and is never found like the other malaysian airplane that vanished into thin air. But i guess that doesn't puzzle people like you. You keep on chewing on whatever CNN feeds you.
And a little english lesson free of charge just for you. The correct spelling is "you're giving glimpses" not "your giving glimpses". For such a smart person your english ain't that good, Einstein. Maybe you should work on that before calling other people stupid.

ATA-MAN

“ I want to see Russians without criminals like that.” ТЫ ЖЕ ЗНАЕШЬ , ЧТО ЭТО АМЕРИКАНСКИЙ СТИЛЬ - ПОТЕРПИ НЕСКОЛЬКО ДНЕЙ И ВСЕ УЗНАЕШЬ ! НЕ ГОВОРИ НИЧЕГО , О ЧЕМ ПРИДЕТСЯ БЫСТРО ПОЖАЛЕТЬ. В КОНЦЕ-КОНЦОВ, МЫ ЖЕ И ВЕНГРОВ ТОЖЕ ОСВОБОЖДАЕМ.

As for the fakes SBU is producing them at a speed of a Xerox machine. The one you mention is already revealed. It was exposed in the web 21 hours before the plane was hit. And it is composed out of 3 parts with only two of them real. The places they mention there are 100 km away from the place.

Remember what I predict. I suppose Russia is already acting like the times when CIA pilot Major Harry Powers was hit on May 1 near Sverdlovsk. For about a month our side kept silent and let everyboy in the world to mud themselves with lies. And when the whole world was sure that those bloodthirsty Russians have killed a good American guy who was a good scientist to lose the coordinates we exposed the spy over the TV. It was a shock for the Americans that Powers was alive and he cooperated the Russians. Seems that we already have the evidence we need to reveal the truth. К тому же ,если мы начнем убивать гражданских , то чем же мы будем отличаться от американцев ? Нет , дружище , нам такой хоккей не нужен !

cry me a river

You're accusing posters for suspending their humanity but you seem to know everything end therefore being a judge and jury by announcing "I think we ALL know who is guilty here" .Before any judgement is passed one can start by asking several questions beginning with the Ukrainian traffic controllers. Was the MH-17 plane deliberately directed into Donetsk in the hopes that Donetsk forces would mistakenly shoot it down or
was the MH-17 deliberately directed into hostilities area so Kiev forces would shoot it down in a false flag attempt (desperate from recent military setbacks?) Did you know the "Ukraine's SBU security service have confiscated all the recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner? How do you know what kind of missile brought the plane down?Was the missile fired by an air-defence system or a fighter plane?
Although any investigation into the incident must be carried out by independent experts without any input by US or its puppet regime in Kiev there is a high probability that we are going to have more fabricated evidence, such as the fabricated evidence presented by US Secretary of State Colin Powell to the UN “proving” the existence of the non-existent Iraqi “weapons of mass destruction” or the "Iranian nuclear nukes" or the Syrian chemical attacks.The US has succeeded with so many lies, deceptions and crimes that it believes that it can always succeed again.

Hmmm, interesting, even when the only foreign soldiers in Ukraine are the ones from Russia, it is still US's war. That's like blaming Russia for the war in Iraq :)
(icj1, 21 July 2014 05:36)
=======================
Do try a little harder to think about it. I know you will get it eventually.

In this case - without any doubt - it was a bunch of "drunken gorillas" (sorry from gorillas!), not a trained team - hence the tragic "result".
(Ataman, 21 July 2014 15:31)
============================
Were thses "gorillas" breath tested? WEstern media has portrayed them this way but do we really know this for sure? How do they know?
Ataman, you are smarter than this.

(Captain Kosova, 19 July 2014 14:48)

Make sure that you have a lot of nappies on hand because Once the Russians change regimes in Romania you guys are next on Serb agenda – make sure you and your lot can swim.
Oh I forgot. What is the US of piss and wind going to do? NOTHING. Oh yes they will be wailing and tutting and calls of shame but that it baby.

do not forget that according to news recently( weeks and days) several US warships, have entered the Black Sea region.

Commentator

“That's why Russian "win" from defeat to defeat”

• You know we f*ck everything that moves.
• We are winning the battle so we do not need to kill the innocent and thus attract foreign aid.

icj1, 19

“Russia shot down a Korean airliner killing 269 people”

It wasn’t the first Korean plane that we have shot down. Few years ago another Korean plane same deliberately ignored the offered the corridor. It also refused to obey our fighter plane. So it had been hit down the same way. But fortunately the pilots managed to land on ice. Bt during Reagan the other Korean pilot was less lucky. Today everybody knows that both provokations were organized by the Yanks. Hey like to provoke with planes. In 1988 they hit down an Iranian plane with 290 passengers and they even didn’t ask pardon. Then they sent planes to NY …

ATAMAN

The plane was hit down by one of the two Ukrainian planes that followed him. They used automatic machine gun because the plane was within Buk reach for 2 minutes only. It’s very little for 16 unexperienced officers on 4 vehicle complex to locate , lighten , seize , fire and guide the target. So they used the planes. It is seen on how the bullets entered the body of the plane. It’s the agony of the regime. A week ago I thought Ukraine will die before spring. Now I suppose it will happen before the New Year.

B92 please place it as it is in Russian.

• Испанский диспетчер, который вел упавший "Боинг", опубликовал сообщение в своем Твиттере, в котором говорилось, что два украинских истребителя были замечены рядом с самолетом за несколько минут до того, как он исчез с радаров.

• El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares, — ✈ Carlos. (@spainbuca) 17 июля 2014

• Когда "Боинг" просто исчез с радаров, киевские власти нам сообщили, что он разбился. Как они могли узнать это так быстро? - пишет Карлос в своем микро-блоге.

http://www.kp.ru/online/news/1795065/

cry me a river

I am not suspended in anything, I just asked a simple question: cui bono? I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why Russia would benefit from shooting down a civilian airliner. I don't like Putin either, but he is no inhuman monster, neither is he that stupid that he would drag Russia into a full-scale war with the West. I also did not blame the West either, I just speculated that they would have more to gain in this situation, which is something no one can really deny, but this does not mean that they actually did it.

I don't see any reason for you to get uptight and throw insults around.

Which country shot down Iranian Air flight 655? I've forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Unfortunately the one who indirectly caused that misery ( NoBama Mamma Jamma) won't be in Hague, hell, he even has a Nobel Peace Prize...
(Ataman, 21 July 2014 15:40)
=======================
He already did. Double standards.

B92

My second post to ASTERI has been deleted here. Meanwhile the only thing I wrote was MARG BAR AMRICA WA ZINDA BAD MARDOM-E QAHRAMANE IRAN that meant DOWN WITH AMERICA AND LONG LIVE THE HEROIC PEOPLE OF IRAN. Either anti-American slogans are no longer accepted here or the previous Moderator with good Persian has retired. As you know half the posts in the web damn the USA and 24% of people in the world believe that the Americans are the biggest threat to peace while only 2% mostly Albanians think the same about Russia.

What should I get that we should blame Russia for the war in Iraq?! That's the only conclusion if we follow your logic.
(icj1, 22 July 2014 04:03)
===…==
Get off those magic mushies.
(Peggy, 22 July 2014 12:42)

That's what you were using when you implied that we should blame Russia for the war in Iraq based on your logic?

Why nobody accented that the Iranians have not entered anyone’s territory like with the Korean plane 5 years before ?
(rote, 22 July 2014 09:04)

Woow, so airlines should stop entering Russia's airspace because Russia is a rogue country that might shoot them down

Nikolle

I am not backtracking on anything.

1) You ask what the West has to gain from shooting the plane down, so I ask you: what has Russia got to gain from shooting down an airliner with 80 children on board? How does this benefit them?

2) Why was the Malaysian Airlines flight rerouted over the Donbass region and why has the Ukrainian government not provided an answer as to why this was done? See the following Daily Mail link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696975/Putin-blames-Ukraine-loss-Flight-MH17-298-innocent-souls-DOESNT-deny-Russian-separatists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html

People blinded by this benevolence of America will obviously ignore these questions and just keep pointing the finger at Russia, regardless of the fact that an investigation into this affair has not even begun.

I am not saying it wasn't Russia (given their track record in Georgia and Chechnya), but I am trying to maintain some level of objectivity by not jumping on the bandwagon and pointing the finger automatically at Russia because 'Murca says so, given their track record for starting wars and hitting civilian infrastructure with guided missiles and strike aircraft.

yet more stupid points.

"You ask what the West has to gain from shooting the plane down, " where have I posed any such question?
"what has Russia got to gain from shooting down an airliner with 80 children on board? How does this benefit them?" the phrasing of this, would imply that I asserted the plane downing was no accident. I have maintained throughout that this wouldn't have happened had the person who fired the missile, known that it was a civilian aircraft. It still doesn't absolve him of blame.
you on the other hand, speculated that its not beyond the realms of possibility that the west or Ukraine would have shot this down to besmirch Russia. apparently, Putin is humane enough to not have ordered it, but those in the west aren't. it is right here on your first post. speculation like that, belongs in Oliver Stone movies. but since we have people who see dots where I don't, tell me, why did those Russian bandits post and then remove their brags at having shot down an aircraft at just about the same time? why have they, according to numerous reports been obstructing the investigation? why did they keep the black box from them for a few days? you see, i too can play this speculative game

"You cannot dispute that."

I can dispute it. If the guy who fired the missile hadn't fired it, this wouldn't have happened.
(Nikolle, 24 July 2014 10:07)
=======================
And if Malaysian Airlines weren't stupid and cheap they would have avoided the area like others did and it wouldn't have happened.
If America kept their nose out of Ukraine and didn't depose a democratically elected government this mess would not have happened. So many ifs.
So stop with your stupidity already.

@ Sreten,
I feel extremely sorry for the victims and their families. However I could not have said it better than Sreten comments. One of the biggest problems in this world is that there are double standards. One rule for the west and another rule for the rest of the world. How about "1" rule for everyone. This incident as tragic as it is shows that profit and money comes before all else. Why would you fly a civilian aircraft no matter at what altitide over a war zone? Does passenger and staff safety not come first? Or does profit come first. How does one know what military equipment a country or rebel faction hold. Why would you risk the lives of passengers and staff by flying over a war zone knowing that such technology to blow a plane out of the sky exists and can be bought on the bkack market. I dont condone the action at ALL. But let the world, UN rule by one law and not 2 when it suites a particular party. Good things are never experienced in war, lets hope that this type of incident never happens again irrespective of where the airline is fromand more importantly who is on board. May their soles rest in peace and their loved ones left behind find the strenght to carry on. Very sad day indeed!

Well here we go again the western propaganda machine in full flow. They instantly know who's to blame and surprise surprise it's their old bad boys,the Russians. Pictures emerging of rocket launchers vacating the scene which could have been recorded anywhere and by anyone. Reports of social media conversations which anyone could have made and taken down from anywhere. It'll be pictures of Ukranians in "concentration camps" next. Hey now doesn't all this sound very familiar?? Remember Bosnia,the US downing of an Iranian civilian jet,weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the list is endless and anyone who believes any of this nonsense is gullible to "Putin" it mildly. Come on you can do better than this, insulting our intelligence in this repetitive manner.

Would never even think that I would ever agree with Robert-O or "cry me a river"... But unfortunately horrible things may happen.

So here is a link (skip the ad of course):

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article130292306/Beweist-dieses-Telefonat-wer-Flug-MH17-abschoss.html

Voices can be recognized and analyzed and investigated. Beyond that not much to investigate, only issue a 20+ year verdict or (better) a death penalty for the guilty, no mercy.

A very typical, characteristic to some most retarded village-dwellers dialog (starting at 2:04). The former dialogs, too, are pretty much revealing the intellectual level of the speakers... would nominate them for Nobel Prize, straight. The most mind-blowing, low-class, had probably difficulty to finish first 8 years in the local school... The accent and the grammar is to laugh about hysterically (if it wouldn't be that sad).

- По телевизору передают вроде бы... как этот... АН-26-ой, украинский транспортник
- (нууу)
- но гхгховорят написано на нём: "малазийские авиалинии". (tried to mirror the accent with that "гхгх")
- И чо он делал на территории Украины?
- Ну значит дово... завозили шпионов, в них на хуй, понял?
- Так точно!
- Щас война идёт, блядь
- Понял!

So either the self-incriminating video is a fake (yea, and I am Santa Claus) or it is not very tough to determine, who is guilty... and who can make a longer visit in Hague. Unfortunately there is no death penalty, to bad.

Continuing from the previous one.
I do not friggn care, did American mercenaries lose 100, 200 or 20000 in Ukraine, good riddance.

Civilian aircraft is completely different thing.

Now if you look at the AN-26 the so-called "rebels" did claim first to shot down (none was shot down that day) and than confusing it with a B-777... and than coming up with the "fact" that MH-17 "probably did bring spies to Ukraine, that's why it was there"... whatever their cause is, these rebels are mentally retarded, at the level of a child.

All sides are responsible - but with this MH-17 tragedy Russians have to take the 100% blame (if they have balls, that is). Besides, they have to answer me why (obviously) most retarded men have all the weaponry - I would not give these guys even an hunting knife.

And secondary... Who is that Igor Girkin ( see the dialog? )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

Better in Russian, I think, English is not detailed enough...

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Стрелков,_Игорь_Иванович

An other neat person, kind of Nazi, I guess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai

While what Ukrainian side is doing is horrible and can easily described as "Nazi", unfortunately the Russian side is quite worse.

Seeing all these "figures" I am thinking, Arkan is by far not the worst.

BTW: regardless, in the Ukrainian-Russian conflict I am formly on Russian side. But not for any price and I want to see Russians without criminals like that.

(CG, 19 July 2014 16:29
One would think with such convictions, that one would not even consider reading or posting in a western language, much less live under such horrible freedoms imposed on western people as you probably do.

Exactly... Since the rebels in East Ukranine are not allowing OSCE observers access to the site, it is clear who the culprit is per your suggestion above.
(icj1, 19 July 2014 18:55)
==========================
icj1, your reply makes absolutely no sense at all.
Tell us how does Russia benefit from this?
If anyone benefits it's Ukraine because this might draw others into this conflict.
It's amazinbg that as soon as this tragedy happened Australian media was 100% sure it's Putin's fault. No investigation yet and no way of knowing yet but everyone is sure Putin has blood on his hand.
Now this has certainly served someone well.
It might have been shot down by mistake too thinking it was a Ukranian plane but even if true it's not Putin's doing. He is not stupid to order this because it would serve no purpose to him. It would do quite the opposite as we can see.
QANTAS has avoided this area for four months now. Makes you wonder how irrisponsible Malaysian Airlies are to fly over an area in the middle of a civil war and all to save some fuel.

The mentality is the biggest problem. This mentality is clearly demonstrated in the last part of the clip most in Russia consider to be a fake. The timing of some parts of it indeed could be a fake (some experts claimed that a part with timestamps from 16th of July is in the middle of two parts from 17th of July).

Unfortunately the most important message is 100% authentic to both "Kievians" and "Muscovites" (both parts being essentially "Russian" to a large degree).

That part is: "they deserved their fate, they were aliens here, so they would be spies".
Any alien (even if largely own!) body is automatically assumed to be "spies" unless proven innocent.

This is exactly what happened with me as I was not even 10 year old.
My dad and I spoke Hungarian in a food store in Moscow.
We were (verbally) attacked by an older woman who demanded we should stop speaking "Jewish language" (!)
We told her, it's Hungarian.
She told us: "than go back, you friggin American SPIES to your homeland in Israel".

For that imbecile anything unusual was from hell, set up straight by some American-Israeli-whatever spies.

Unfortunately it is enough for a single imbecile like that to be near a "Buk" station and just press the knob.

It is true, operating the "Buk" PROPERLY needs a trained team.

In this case - without any doubt - it was a bunch of "drunken gorillas" (sorry from gorillas!), not a trained team - hence the tragic "result".

Continuing...


What side ( was the flag black-blue-red or yellow-blue ) these gorillas did CLAIM to serve matters only a little.
If "black-blue-red" - than an other gorilla (NoBama Mamma) will beat his chest, that's the difference.

Fact is, this intra-gorilla domestic conflict went way to far, allowing neandertals to take over a place which should be in 21st century.

To answer the other post: yes, I know, there are (as usual) few more theories. Ultimately they do not make anything better or worse, even if true. We do claim, the neandertals pained in red+black or blue-yellow are essentially Russians. And of course, the neandertals painted in black-blue-red (or white-blue-red) are also Russians.
If that is true, the difference which site took down the MH-17 does not matter: they were neandertals pretending to be "Russian" (or self-proclaimed "Ukrainian" neandertals - who are not any different than Russian neandertals).

That is - they are in first line neandertals and their video clips (fake or not) are the proof.

So yes, I am accusing both sides to be neandertals and I demand both sides to be taken to Hague for 20+ years.

Unfortunately the one who indirectly caused that misery ( NoBama Mamma Jamma) won't be in Hague, hell, he even has a Nobel Peace Prize...

Peggy

“Iranians not important. The US can kill without consequences.”

Why nobody is speaking about the 6 Yugoslavian citizens aboard that plane ? Why nobody accented that the Iranians have not entered anyone’s territory like with the Korean plane 5 years before ? To say of the Russian plane hit in the Black sea 3 years after the Iranian. All peoples are equal but some are more equal than the others.

. All peoples are equal but some are more equal than the others.
(rote, 22 July 2014 09:04)
=====================
I abusolutely agree with you and it all depends on which side of the fence you sit, especially if you sit on western side.
The west is rotten to the core but has a very good advertising firm.
Even if it turns out that Ukranians did this themselves to draw the world into this sh!t (and I can believe that is the case), we in the west will never hear about it.

What should I get that we should blame Russia for the war in Iraq?! That's the only conclusion if we follow your logic.
(icj1, 22 July 2014 04:03)
====================
Get off those magic mushies.

"The airliner had a responsibility not to endanger the passengers."

who says they didn't? but the guy who fired the missile was within his right to blow a civilian carrier out of the sky? as i wrote before, your line of thinking blames a woman for being raped. its disgusting.

who says they didn't? but the guy who fired the missile was within his right to blow a civilian carrier out of the sky? as i wrote before, your line of thinking blames a woman for being raped. its disgusting.
(Nikolle, 23 July 2014 19:42)
====================================
Really sick of you using that analogy. Trying for the maximum effect are you?
Of course a woman is NEVER at fault for being raped but there are measures everyone can take to minimize the likelyhood of a bad outcome. Why then has QANTAS avoided the area for the last four months? I'll tell you, it's because they are making sure their passengers are put first and every care is taken that they will not be put at risk.
So yes, the person firing on the plane is also at fault, be it a mistake or deliberate, but if Malaysia Airlines took as much care as QANTAS did then this would have been avoide. You cannot dispute that.
A class action against the airline is coming and rightly so.

"You cannot dispute that."

I can dispute it. If the guy who fired the missile hadn't fired it, this wouldn't have happened.

"So, now back to the aircraft that was shot down yesterday... what was your point?
(icj1, 19 July 2014 18:51) "

I think Boris gets my point.

Most think shooter is guilty.
Nikolle" - It is the fault of the person who fired the missile and his commanding officer who told him to do it."

One of the stumbling blocks on the way of normalizing complex relationship between US and Iran. Iran sent official request to every single administration (including Obama's) since 1988 demanding formal apology as a gesture of good will. All of them refused sticking to original line that airplane should not have been flying over combat zone, and that all blame is with air traffic control.

Cry me a river - "If you are going to blame:
- the airline for flying over that area ...then you're an idiot or just a down-right rotten person! "

That's what US government is saying for decades, but I'm a bit surprised that "cry me a river" is using such harsh words for them.

Guilty should be punished! Entire crew of USS Vincennes was decorated! Crew - Combat Action Ribbons, Captain William C. Rogers ("who told them to do it") - Legion of Merit, and Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, -"Navy Commendation Medal" for his ability to "quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure."

What do you think? Should culprits be sent to Hague or decorated and praised?

icj1
I realized that I didn't respond to something you said.
First, what are we talking about?

I'm not getting into speculations who did it. Peter Sudyka did some here in well-measured comment I must say.

Issue on social networks is "civilian planes over warzones" and there are 2 sides in debate.
1. Shooters are guilty (whoever they are)
On this site - Nikolle, cry me a river...
2. Who sent the plane over warzone is guilty.
Long-standing view of US-governments, on this site Boris is leaning that way...

"And we can also look at the one where Russia shot down a Korean airliner..." 1983
First, it wasn't Russia, but Soviet Union (including Ukraine and others).
Second. NO. We can't. In the same way we can't look at 2001 Ukrainian military shooting down Russian airliner...
There were not airliners flying over warzones.
So, only those 2 are simmilar, almost identical cases. And two were flight was over combat zone.
It's only natural to compare those two.
I undestand that some people feel very strongly their oppinin is right one.
To "cry me a river" Boris is "down-right rotten and idiot" and America have been ran by those for decades. But, I can see some merit in both views and I'll explain where I stand.

Finishing:

Rarely was thinking I can write a strongly Anti-Russian and Anti-American post the same time.
But here it is, unfortunately. I write what I feel, feeling really mad about this kind of retards and mad about politicians who are "clever" creators of this situation.

The lesson here: the political change should proceed cautiously AFTER economic reforms.
See China (Mainland), Korea (South), Taiwan, VietNam... versus disasters like Soviet Union or Yugoslavia.

With all respect to Tienanmen... Chinese were lucky, their "orange revolution" was indefinitely postponed.
Same about Taiwan after Chang Kai-shek.

In this case - without any doubt - it was a bunch of "drunken gorillas" (sorry from gorillas!), not a trained team - hence the tragic "result".
(Ataman, 21 July 2014 15:31)

You have any witnesses or proof like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDL-bTBLpmM