Duma speaker grateful for "position on Ukraine crisis"

Actually, Mr. T it WAS a coup by EVERY definition of the term. Approx 10,000 "protesters" who among them had guns, neo nazi right sector thugs, took over government buildings by FORCE, killed police officers, shot at reporters, used Molotov cocktails against state structures, employees, etc... All the while being supported financially by the West (who on VIDEO tape admitted spending 5 BILLION dollars to fund the regime change in Kiev... look it up on YOUTUBE if you know how to use a computer).

While on YOUTUBE you also might want to lookup the LEAKED phone conversation between 2 SENIOR US diplomats HAND PICKING before the COUP who WILL and WHO WONT be put into power once their plan is launched.

So the US and WEST DID fund, plan, and support a VIOLENT coup in Ukraine to overthrow the democratically elected president (because they couldn't muster up enough votes to get "their guys" in power democratically).

President Yankukovich was an unpopular president (much like President Obama), but the proper way is to do it in an election. President Yankukovich did NOT LEAVE the country, he was going to be assassinated and fled to save his life and that of his family. There is clear video FOOTAGE after he agreed to give up much of his power and hold early elections (which the US knew they had no chance of winning) but that wasn't enough, so they moved ahead with their plan to cash in on their $5 billion dollar investment.

Russia is digging trenches getting ready for a long and total war. Morally we are ready to worsen our life for long. But we will not step back – enough ! yes we understand that outside our borders there are 2-3 more or less free countries. So when the Chinese sustain from voting in the UNSC we thank them. When Serbians refuse to follow Dokanovic kind dogs we thank them. When Iran declares it will never weaken Russia’s negotiation positions on the European gas market we thank them. Et cetera !

After 70 years we do remember that before 1944 outside the USSR partisan movement in Europe existed only on the Yugoslavian soil that it had appeared months before those in the USSR. We have no problems to remember how people behaved when we needed their aid most. I mean we needed those partisans’ help rather in 1941-42 when Germans stood by Moscow than in 1945 when we stormed Berlin. I am sure that national memory is a great capital but this is why we have to suffer now and then.

"In Kiev, radicals organized a coup....
No, in Kiev people protested against the government of Yanukovic, who as a Russian puppet, robbed the country, spread corruption and then, like the coward he is, fled. There was no coup because the president left a void that was legitimately filled by an interim president. Russia is distorting the truth and spreading disinformation, typically Soviet style, in order to disrupt the upcoming elections in Ukraine. Rather than taking a diplomatic, non partisan stance Serbia should show backbone by demonstrating that Putin's style of politics does not belong in a modern Europe.

I'll bet you & dictator Putin are grateful, as Serbia is the only country that is supporting your aggressive policies! Today's Russia, and the Serbia of the 1990s sure as hell have a lot of similarities!!! How's is one, to trust either of these pariah states???

Serbs you are lucky that you don't border Russia. Your beloved Putin would have done to you what he is doing to your slavic brothers in Ukraine.

rote

AK was formed in early 1942, not as late as you claim. Of course, their more serious operations only came later, because they were a young, small and disorganized organization to begin with and above all, under-armed. Nonetheless, they were active and only grew in size and capabilities until culminating in Akcja Burza, which liberated several Polish cities from German rule and nearly Warsaw (80 days they fought with barely any weapons against the far more powerful Wehrmacht and had managed to take 2/3 of the city from them).

Of course our resistance doesn't compare to the much more powerful Soviet partizan movement, but the USSR was not conquered and therefore there was still mutual assistance, while in case of Poland, our country was totally conquered and occupied, but one thing: you can't compare smaller Soviet losses and Yugoslav partizans liberating their own country with Poland because there is one key difference: there were never less than 350,000 (1942, due to manpower needs for Barbarossa) Germans stationed in Poland due to it being an important transport route to the USSR. In Yugoslavia the maximum was 300,000 in 1944, while in Poland, it was over a million at that time. Not fair to compare the two.

AK also, was not anti-Russian, but anti-communist first and foremost. There were hundreds of thousands of anti-communist Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians that joined German units like ROA, RONA and Don Cossacks, so this should not be strange to you.

PETER

If you don’t mind I’ll go home. I remained almost alone in my office. And I even have no time to read your messages. We have 3 days out and I’ll respond you after I read them better. Russians are in a Victory Day mood. Guess we have 3 big holidays : New Year , Easter and Victory Day. All 3 we share with the Poles and even Easter this year was one. Today it was twice snowing good enough.

Congrats and best wishes !

Your contribution to the discussio.

Haha.What's your contribution?Sweet FA.Readthe postings by Peter and Rote to educate yourself.

Serbia supports Russia. Russia supports dictator Assad. God help us.

rote

I know that since the end of WWII, your people have been taught in schools that the only partizans in Europe were Soviet and Yugoslav communism partizans only, but could you please stop offending the memory of hundreds of thousands of Polish resistance fighters that had already began fighting back as early as March 1940 (when Henryk Dobrzañski's unit destroyed a German battalion in the village of Huciska)? I know communist propaganda has totally whitewashed and even negated the achievements of AK, NSZ, WiN etc. but communism is (or should be) dead in Europe and there is no need to carry on post-war propaganda as "fact", especially when there are sources now available to negate the communist version of events.

Peter - 1


Peter I wouldn’t like to pedal the issue but please never compare AK with the Russian and Serbian partisans. In the context I wouldn’t mentions the Communists as well. Just because they set Europe free while some 5 000 000 of the Soviet Communists died on the battlefield. Out of 123 000 of the combat losses Poland suffered during WW2 63 000 were killed during 2 weeks in September 1939. Other 60 000 include all losses on all other theatres during 6 years to come. Including what you say plus Lenino , Berlin and the Battle of Monte Cassino ect. Yet from my Russian view it was far from what we had in Yugoslavia.

Half of the Poles fought on one side and the other half on the other. It was a tragedy of the people but please never compare AK+AL with the two great Yugoslavian armies. In USSR we had Vlasov army while Serbs had only 6000 of Waffen SS and fought on one side. So the Soviets lost “only” 7900 of personnel during Belgrade Operation while the rest of the country had been liberated long before we came. Meanwhile we have 600 000 graves on the Polish soil today.

In the end I am to say that there was no offence in my original comment. Yet Polish partisans had other goals than just setting their country free. To my mind during WW2 Poles had two reserve corps - one in Scotland and one inside the country. The results of AK activities as I believe were comparatively poor. Unlike AL and VP and my beloved commander K. Rokossovski.

May I ask what are the trenches needed.

What a stupid request.If you don't know what the trenches are for you should concentrate on your pizza deliveries and leave the serious thinking to others.I can't understamd why some people are calling you chief albanian economist.

Peter , two more things :

1/ As a matter of fact you may be proud to insist on your point when you talk to Albanians , Bulgarians , Romanians, Hungarians , Czechs , Slovakians. Their partisan movements were fragmentary and appeared only in 1944-45. They spent more efforts to write their how I won the war stories than to fight the Germans. Here Poles have big advantage please but never compare things that cannot be compared. At least I feel offence when you export Polish history of captain Kloss and the 4 tankists+dog. By the way if you remember the name if the Georgian it was Saakashvili. Thus Poland was the first to support the Rose Revolution.

2/ In February 1945 in a Polish town an old woman approached a Soviet officer on duty. She said that her brother too fought in the Soviet Army. The young officer responded that it was not surprising coz thousands of Poles fought there. But the old woman insisted that her brother must have been not an ordinary Polak because even the Germans several times had interrogated her about her brother. When the officer asked what was her brother’s name she said it was Konstantin Rokossowski. The officer was shocked and didn't believe for it was 2-nd Byelorusski Front. Yet he took her adress and made a report. After 10 days Helena saw her brother she had been missing for decades. It’s pity that the Russians love him much more than the Poles !

Peter

“Of course our resistance doesn't compare to the much more powerful Soviet AND YUGOSLAVIAN partizan movement”

Should you add these two words ( AND YUGOSLAVIAN ) there would be no item to discuss. It’s not because I seek sympathies from the Serbs here but because it’s true. Just think about it – they rebelled in spring of 1941 when formally the USSR and Germany were allies and Wehrmacht was turning everything into ashes! What was their hope for ? Later when the communists joined the cetnics USSR was not in a condition to help them much. The English whose combat losses in WW2 composed only 10% of what they got in WW1 were ready to arm anybody against Hitler. They even supplied the USSR ! But quite little people were ready to fight before the end of the game became evident. Only in two countries on the continent the movement became uncompromised.

Like elsewhere Germans split the nation and in the end they fought each other. Same things we had in USSR and Poland. It happened that the most split were the Poles. I guess Anders’ Corps could do better things than to eat Plow in Uzbekistan and guard English pipes in Egypt. The Reserve Corps too could be of use instead eating canned meat for 4 years ect. When I write things like that I fail to be diplomatic. For you some may be heroes but people like General W.Anders are traitors to desert from the battlefield during Stalingrad. This is why I am so uncompromised over the war.

rote

It seems that numbers are the only thing that divides us.

In the Warsaw Uprising alone, the Germans lost 9,000 KIA and 7,000 missing to the AK, so that 1,000 killed that you mentioned must have been in one big skirmish or a series of engagements with the Germans. 150,000 axis fatalities were recorded in Poland at the hands of the underground armies and AK was by far the largest of them.

They fought against the Soviets, because Stalin allied with Hitler to invade and dismember Poland. This should not be surpizing to you.

1,000,000 Axis soldiers killed by Belarussian partizans is also not possible. At the hands of the Red Army in Belarus, I can definitely agree with, but not partizans. If German military KIA were 5 million (including 1,000,000 in captivity) on the Eastern Front, then I find it difficult to believe that 1,000,000 died at the hands of Belarussian partizans. 1,000,000 in Belarus of all causes (Red Army defense, Red Army offense AND Belarussian partizan activity), then yes, I can agree.

Peter

When we compare the partisan movements in Yugoslavia and Poland we have to acknowledge that though the population in Yugoalsvia was much smaller than the Polish 28 mln. their two partisan armies were bigger and more active. The suffered much bigger losses and they destroyed more of the Germans , Bulgarians , Italians ect. Sure you can improve my understanding but not drastically. I do not mean that Polish partisans didn’t mean to fight. They were not allowed to exaust themselves before the X hour. So they were the third in all main components. In any case you cannot compare AK members sitting their homes with those travelling the mountains of Yugoslavia day after day.

But if I were you I would say that the structure of the polish resistance was quite different and it composed not only of the partisans but other troops on different theatres. Then I would mention 200 000 of the reserve corpse, 70-100 000 of what is known as Anders Army , 90 000 of 1-st Army of Voisko Polskoe, maybe the 2-nd Army , plus several battalions and regiments in the English army ect. I would also mention that those were the Poles only to have the honor to storm Berlin. But to be honest I would also mention of the thousands of the Poles inside Wehrmacht. I mistrust the figures I saw (500 000 ) but 62 000 of the Poles were captured , half in Kurks. Hitler mistrusted the Poles and they had no separate troops to count them better. Besides Poles were reluctant to fight the Russians.

PETER

I respect the heroes in Warsaw but I believe that people in London committed a crime against both the Poles and the Soviets. Warsaw Riot was the only big operation that had not been coordinated beforehand. It was cynic decision and it got same cynic respond on the Soviet side. I am far from thinking that it was Mikolaicik who took the decision. He depended on the English too much … Very sad.

I’ll try to find you the report I am relying all the time. In any case it was the AK annual report and it was close to the German figures. But we both know that AK was a reserve army. It was not their guilt but it was the general strategy of the London government. Same things we saw with the Anders Army that had their first and the last battle 3 years after my fighting country armed them. So was the Reserve Corps to be introduced firsts to patrol streets months after Voisko Polskoe delivered their flags to Berlin.

Peter I skeptic about so many things that I am afraid some day to become a septic … so I am not sure of the losses delivered in Buelorussia as well. Guess they include the injured too. You’re right there always problems with the figures. Because they are part of the warfare. We even have no exact figures of the German prisoners of war. Many were wounded and died before they were delivered to the camps. In any case in May 1945 they exceeded 3,5 million. Only during Operation BAGRATION Rokossowski seized 167 000 later shown in Moscow.

Russia is digging trenches getting ready for a long and total war. Morally we are ready to worsen our life for long.
(rote, 5 May 2014 17:37)

May I ask what are the trenches needed for and whom is Russia planning fighting a long and total war with? Don Quixote's windmills ?!

Serbia supports Russia. Russia supports dictator Assad. God help us.
(Avni, 5 May 2014 20:25)

Albanians support the US and the US supports Egypt, Suadi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and Yemen. All known for their non dictatorial rule.

Peter - 2

We have discussed it with you. Now if you mean Hlopski Bataioni , students’ underground and other disintegrated groups I can say that they were not big enough to call them a mass movement. If we talk about AK it was formed late 1943 and de facto fought only during 1944. In 1943 during Moscow visit Stalin told Mikolaicik that AK did not fight the Germans and your commander swallowed it. You also know that after Jan. 19 in 1945 AK killed only the Soviets. Also we both know that Poles were united not against the Germans but to seize power 5 minutes before the Russian will come. Their combat activity was dozens of times lower compared to what we saw in Byelorussia.

To say nothing that I still admire AL created by Beria together with the VP in 1943. When I talk about partisan movement it is the Russian meaning of the word. I talk about real and wide scale or even total partisan war the way it was in the USSR and Yugoslavia. Nowhere else on the continent! Our partisans too were not equally good. People in Byelorussia still joke ЧЕМ ДАЛЬШЕ В ЛЕС , ТЕМ ТОЛЬЩЕ ПАРТИЗАНЫ. All because some of the Russian partisans deserted from the army and had no other choice. Both Soviets and Germans hunted them and they used to come out only when they lacked food. Then they robbed everybody they met.

Peter

Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend ! The only thing that I accuse AK is that even though their country was occupied by the Germans they targeted USSR. All the rest is not my business as I am not a Pole and it wasn’t my country where the Nazi killed 1 million per year. If only we consider the Jews too. Yes formally AK had been established long ago. We may even say way back in 1939 as SZP then it was transformed several times. I saw a film last year how they even cooperated in 1942 with the Soviet partisans in Byelorussia. I think unless they were ruled from Moscow and London the cooperation could be longer and wider. No doubt in that case common Poles would also fight more tense than they did.

Peter what divides us the level of combat activity. Only one group of Polish partisans was active enough. It was pro-Russian GL-AL but it was 10 times smaller of AK that we are talking about. Before 1944 active was only GL-AL while the much bigger partisan army of AK sat mostly at their homes with their wives waiting for the Russians to come. In 1944 when AK reached peak ( 350-380 000) during one year they “killed more than 1000 Germans and destroyed some 230 bridges” as they reported to London. 1944 was most active in AK fight as you know. In the neighboring Byelorussia with 3-4 times smaller population during 4 years of occupation partisans killed and injured about 1 000 000.

Continued.

I know that since the end of WWII, your people have been taught in schools that the only partizans in Europe were Soviet and Yugoslav communism partizans only, but could you please stop offending the memory of hundreds of thousands of Polish resistance fighters that had already began fighting back as early as March 1940 (when Henryk Dobrzañski's unit destroyed a German battalion in the village of Huciska)? I know communist propaganda has totally whitewashed and even negated the achievements of AK, NSZ, WiN etc. but communism is (or should be) dead in Europe and there is no need to carry on post-war propaganda as "fact", especially when there are sources now available to negate the communist version of events.
(Peter Sudyka, 6 May 2014 09:16)

Easy now, Comrade Putin just signed into law imrisonment of up to five years for anybody questioning the official Soviet doctrine about what happened in WWII.

Serbs in Diaspora support Russia and pray for ceasing of hostilities and the provocation of Washington on Ukraine territory. Russia supported and continues to support Serbia and its Diaspora now and during illegal NATO bombing of Belgrade, Serbia and Washington's bombing of the Chinese Embassy building in Belgrade. Daily Ukraine's crisis is played out reminding us what US-Nato did to Yugoslavia, without care for citizens. The psychological and physical effect on citizens leaves only a hatred for American bullying, empirical building, Godlessness which is a tragedy for what is supposed to be civilized world. This what is happening is geopolitical and not ideological. Russia is provoked geopolitically by Washington-Brussels-Nato. Russian identity must exist. The Orthodox Christian World with its traditions and ritual must exist and Russia leads. The Western churches, mostly have become community halls and charities leaving out True Faith. No-one wants an American identity - not anymore! Shame!

@'The Truth'. Actually Mr 'know-it-all' ask yourself this; Why is it that I have to make a point but can't do so without the need to be so condescending? If you don't know what it means look it up in a dictionary, if you know how to use one.

Russia warn for War in Europe !.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10808642/Ukraine-crisis-threatens-peace-in-Europe-says-Russia.html

Serbia bevere for Your Northern and Northwestern Neighbours.

Surely the Russian Military Inteligense sevices knows what is going on in Europe.

Again I say - Serbia bevere !.

Arn.Sweden.

"Sergei Naryshkin thanked the Serbian public on its position regarding the crisis in Ukraine, which he said was identical to the Russian stance"

Of course Sergei should thank, at a minimum... where else can he find somebody that Russia can even spit on the face and that somebody will still consider Russia a "brother" :)

Russia is digging trenches getting ready for a long and total war. Morally we are ready to worsen our life for long.
(rote, 5 May 2014 17:37)

May I ask what are the trenches needed for and whom is Russia planning fighting a long and total war with? Don Quixote's windmills ?!
(icj1, 6 May 2014 05:22)

What a stupid request.If you don't know what the trenches are for you should concentrate on your pizza deliveries and leave the serious thinking to others.I can't understamd why some people are calling you chief albanian economist.
(Gotsefromohrid, 6 May 2014 17:21)

Well, dear, in your enthusiasm you did not read what I actually requested... I did not ask what "trenches" are? I asked our dear friend rote, what Russia does need the trenches for ? I.e. what does Russia need a long, narrow ditch for ? How does it help in getting ready for a long and total war with the Don Quixote's windmills ? But still I appreciate the serious thinking you put into this and the contribution that you brought to the discussion... I hope your brain did not overheat from such an intense and serious thinking activity :)

I'll bet you & dictator Putin are grateful, as Serbia is the only country that is supporting your aggressive policies! Today's Russia, and the Serbia of the 1990s sure as hell have a lot of similarities!!! How's is one, to trust either of these pariah states???

"In Kiev, radicals organized a coup....
No, in Kiev people protested against the government of Yanukovic, who as a Russian puppet, robbed the country, spread corruption and then, like the coward he is, fled. There was no coup because the president left a void that was legitimately filled by an interim president. Russia is distorting the truth and spreading disinformation, typically Soviet style, in order to disrupt the upcoming elections in Ukraine. Rather than taking a diplomatic, non partisan stance Serbia should show backbone by demonstrating that Putin's style of politics does not belong in a modern Europe.

Serbia supports Russia. Russia supports dictator Assad. God help us.

Actually, Mr. T it WAS a coup by EVERY definition of the term. Approx 10,000 "protesters" who among them had guns, neo nazi right sector thugs, took over government buildings by FORCE, killed police officers, shot at reporters, used Molotov cocktails against state structures, employees, etc... All the while being supported financially by the West (who on VIDEO tape admitted spending 5 BILLION dollars to fund the regime change in Kiev... look it up on YOUTUBE if you know how to use a computer).

While on YOUTUBE you also might want to lookup the LEAKED phone conversation between 2 SENIOR US diplomats HAND PICKING before the COUP who WILL and WHO WONT be put into power once their plan is launched.

So the US and WEST DID fund, plan, and support a VIOLENT coup in Ukraine to overthrow the democratically elected president (because they couldn't muster up enough votes to get "their guys" in power democratically).

President Yankukovich was an unpopular president (much like President Obama), but the proper way is to do it in an election. President Yankukovich did NOT LEAVE the country, he was going to be assassinated and fled to save his life and that of his family. There is clear video FOOTAGE after he agreed to give up much of his power and hold early elections (which the US knew they had no chance of winning) but that wasn't enough, so they moved ahead with their plan to cash in on their $5 billion dollar investment.

Russia is digging trenches getting ready for a long and total war. Morally we are ready to worsen our life for long. But we will not step back – enough ! yes we understand that outside our borders there are 2-3 more or less free countries. So when the Chinese sustain from voting in the UNSC we thank them. When Serbians refuse to follow Dokanovic kind dogs we thank them. When Iran declares it will never weaken Russia’s negotiation positions on the European gas market we thank them. Et cetera !

After 70 years we do remember that before 1944 outside the USSR partisan movement in Europe existed only on the Yugoslavian soil that it had appeared months before those in the USSR. We have no problems to remember how people behaved when we needed their aid most. I mean we needed those partisans’ help rather in 1941-42 when Germans stood by Moscow than in 1945 when we stormed Berlin. I am sure that national memory is a great capital but this is why we have to suffer now and then.

Serbs in Diaspora support Russia and pray for ceasing of hostilities and the provocation of Washington on Ukraine territory. Russia supported and continues to support Serbia and its Diaspora now and during illegal NATO bombing of Belgrade, Serbia and Washington's bombing of the Chinese Embassy building in Belgrade. Daily Ukraine's crisis is played out reminding us what US-Nato did to Yugoslavia, without care for citizens. The psychological and physical effect on citizens leaves only a hatred for American bullying, empirical building, Godlessness which is a tragedy for what is supposed to be civilized world. This what is happening is geopolitical and not ideological. Russia is provoked geopolitically by Washington-Brussels-Nato. Russian identity must exist. The Orthodox Christian World with its traditions and ritual must exist and Russia leads. The Western churches, mostly have become community halls and charities leaving out True Faith. No-one wants an American identity - not anymore! Shame!

"Sergei Naryshkin thanked the Serbian public on its position regarding the crisis in Ukraine, which he said was identical to the Russian stance"

Of course Sergei should thank, at a minimum... where else can he find somebody that Russia can even spit on the face and that somebody will still consider Russia a "brother" :)

Russia is digging trenches getting ready for a long and total war. Morally we are ready to worsen our life for long.
(rote, 5 May 2014 17:37)

May I ask what are the trenches needed for and whom is Russia planning fighting a long and total war with? Don Quixote's windmills ?!
(icj1, 6 May 2014 05:22)

What a stupid request.If you don't know what the trenches are for you should concentrate on your pizza deliveries and leave the serious thinking to others.I can't understamd why some people are calling you chief albanian economist.
(Gotsefromohrid, 6 May 2014 17:21)

Well, dear, in your enthusiasm you did not read what I actually requested... I did not ask what "trenches" are? I asked our dear friend rote, what Russia does need the trenches for ? I.e. what does Russia need a long, narrow ditch for ? How does it help in getting ready for a long and total war with the Don Quixote's windmills ? But still I appreciate the serious thinking you put into this and the contribution that you brought to the discussion... I hope your brain did not overheat from such an intense and serious thinking activity :)

I know that since the end of WWII, your people have been taught in schools that the only partizans in Europe were Soviet and Yugoslav communism partizans only, but could you please stop offending the memory of hundreds of thousands of Polish resistance fighters that had already began fighting back as early as March 1940 (when Henryk Dobrzañski's unit destroyed a German battalion in the village of Huciska)? I know communist propaganda has totally whitewashed and even negated the achievements of AK, NSZ, WiN etc. but communism is (or should be) dead in Europe and there is no need to carry on post-war propaganda as "fact", especially when there are sources now available to negate the communist version of events.
(Peter Sudyka, 6 May 2014 09:16)

Easy now, Comrade Putin just signed into law imrisonment of up to five years for anybody questioning the official Soviet doctrine about what happened in WWII.

Russia is digging trenches getting ready for a long and total war. Morally we are ready to worsen our life for long.
(rote, 5 May 2014 17:37)

May I ask what are the trenches needed for and whom is Russia planning fighting a long and total war with? Don Quixote's windmills ?!

rote

I know that since the end of WWII, your people have been taught in schools that the only partizans in Europe were Soviet and Yugoslav communism partizans only, but could you please stop offending the memory of hundreds of thousands of Polish resistance fighters that had already began fighting back as early as March 1940 (when Henryk Dobrzañski's unit destroyed a German battalion in the village of Huciska)? I know communist propaganda has totally whitewashed and even negated the achievements of AK, NSZ, WiN etc. but communism is (or should be) dead in Europe and there is no need to carry on post-war propaganda as "fact", especially when there are sources now available to negate the communist version of events.

Serbia supports Russia. Russia supports dictator Assad. God help us.
(Avni, 5 May 2014 20:25)

Albanians support the US and the US supports Egypt, Suadi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE and Yemen. All known for their non dictatorial rule.

Peter - 2

We have discussed it with you. Now if you mean Hlopski Bataioni , students’ underground and other disintegrated groups I can say that they were not big enough to call them a mass movement. If we talk about AK it was formed late 1943 and de facto fought only during 1944. In 1943 during Moscow visit Stalin told Mikolaicik that AK did not fight the Germans and your commander swallowed it. You also know that after Jan. 19 in 1945 AK killed only the Soviets. Also we both know that Poles were united not against the Germans but to seize power 5 minutes before the Russian will come. Their combat activity was dozens of times lower compared to what we saw in Byelorussia.

To say nothing that I still admire AL created by Beria together with the VP in 1943. When I talk about partisan movement it is the Russian meaning of the word. I talk about real and wide scale or even total partisan war the way it was in the USSR and Yugoslavia. Nowhere else on the continent! Our partisans too were not equally good. People in Byelorussia still joke ЧЕМ ДАЛЬШЕ В ЛЕС , ТЕМ ТОЛЬЩЕ ПАРТИЗАНЫ. All because some of the Russian partisans deserted from the army and had no other choice. Both Soviets and Germans hunted them and they used to come out only when they lacked food. Then they robbed everybody they met.

May I ask what are the trenches needed.

What a stupid request.If you don't know what the trenches are for you should concentrate on your pizza deliveries and leave the serious thinking to others.I can't understamd why some people are calling you chief albanian economist.

Peter - 1


Peter I wouldn’t like to pedal the issue but please never compare AK with the Russian and Serbian partisans. In the context I wouldn’t mentions the Communists as well. Just because they set Europe free while some 5 000 000 of the Soviet Communists died on the battlefield. Out of 123 000 of the combat losses Poland suffered during WW2 63 000 were killed during 2 weeks in September 1939. Other 60 000 include all losses on all other theatres during 6 years to come. Including what you say plus Lenino , Berlin and the Battle of Monte Cassino ect. Yet from my Russian view it was far from what we had in Yugoslavia.

Half of the Poles fought on one side and the other half on the other. It was a tragedy of the people but please never compare AK+AL with the two great Yugoslavian armies. In USSR we had Vlasov army while Serbs had only 6000 of Waffen SS and fought on one side. So the Soviets lost “only” 7900 of personnel during Belgrade Operation while the rest of the country had been liberated long before we came. Meanwhile we have 600 000 graves on the Polish soil today.

In the end I am to say that there was no offence in my original comment. Yet Polish partisans had other goals than just setting their country free. To my mind during WW2 Poles had two reserve corps - one in Scotland and one inside the country. The results of AK activities as I believe were comparatively poor. Unlike AL and VP and my beloved commander K. Rokossovski.

Peter , two more things :

1/ As a matter of fact you may be proud to insist on your point when you talk to Albanians , Bulgarians , Romanians, Hungarians , Czechs , Slovakians. Their partisan movements were fragmentary and appeared only in 1944-45. They spent more efforts to write their how I won the war stories than to fight the Germans. Here Poles have big advantage please but never compare things that cannot be compared. At least I feel offence when you export Polish history of captain Kloss and the 4 tankists+dog. By the way if you remember the name if the Georgian it was Saakashvili. Thus Poland was the first to support the Rose Revolution.

2/ In February 1945 in a Polish town an old woman approached a Soviet officer on duty. She said that her brother too fought in the Soviet Army. The young officer responded that it was not surprising coz thousands of Poles fought there. But the old woman insisted that her brother must have been not an ordinary Polak because even the Germans several times had interrogated her about her brother. When the officer asked what was her brother’s name she said it was Konstantin Rokossowski. The officer was shocked and didn't believe for it was 2-nd Byelorusski Front. Yet he took her adress and made a report. After 10 days Helena saw her brother she had been missing for decades. It’s pity that the Russians love him much more than the Poles !

Your contribution to the discussio.

Haha.What's your contribution?Sweet FA.Readthe postings by Peter and Rote to educate yourself.

Serbs you are lucky that you don't border Russia. Your beloved Putin would have done to you what he is doing to your slavic brothers in Ukraine.

@'The Truth'. Actually Mr 'know-it-all' ask yourself this; Why is it that I have to make a point but can't do so without the need to be so condescending? If you don't know what it means look it up in a dictionary, if you know how to use one.

PETER

If you don’t mind I’ll go home. I remained almost alone in my office. And I even have no time to read your messages. We have 3 days out and I’ll respond you after I read them better. Russians are in a Victory Day mood. Guess we have 3 big holidays : New Year , Easter and Victory Day. All 3 we share with the Poles and even Easter this year was one. Today it was twice snowing good enough.

Congrats and best wishes !

rote

AK was formed in early 1942, not as late as you claim. Of course, their more serious operations only came later, because they were a young, small and disorganized organization to begin with and above all, under-armed. Nonetheless, they were active and only grew in size and capabilities until culminating in Akcja Burza, which liberated several Polish cities from German rule and nearly Warsaw (80 days they fought with barely any weapons against the far more powerful Wehrmacht and had managed to take 2/3 of the city from them).

Of course our resistance doesn't compare to the much more powerful Soviet partizan movement, but the USSR was not conquered and therefore there was still mutual assistance, while in case of Poland, our country was totally conquered and occupied, but one thing: you can't compare smaller Soviet losses and Yugoslav partizans liberating their own country with Poland because there is one key difference: there were never less than 350,000 (1942, due to manpower needs for Barbarossa) Germans stationed in Poland due to it being an important transport route to the USSR. In Yugoslavia the maximum was 300,000 in 1944, while in Poland, it was over a million at that time. Not fair to compare the two.

AK also, was not anti-Russian, but anti-communist first and foremost. There were hundreds of thousands of anti-communist Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians that joined German units like ROA, RONA and Don Cossacks, so this should not be strange to you.

Peter

Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend ! The only thing that I accuse AK is that even though their country was occupied by the Germans they targeted USSR. All the rest is not my business as I am not a Pole and it wasn’t my country where the Nazi killed 1 million per year. If only we consider the Jews too. Yes formally AK had been established long ago. We may even say way back in 1939 as SZP then it was transformed several times. I saw a film last year how they even cooperated in 1942 with the Soviet partisans in Byelorussia. I think unless they were ruled from Moscow and London the cooperation could be longer and wider. No doubt in that case common Poles would also fight more tense than they did.

Peter what divides us the level of combat activity. Only one group of Polish partisans was active enough. It was pro-Russian GL-AL but it was 10 times smaller of AK that we are talking about. Before 1944 active was only GL-AL while the much bigger partisan army of AK sat mostly at their homes with their wives waiting for the Russians to come. In 1944 when AK reached peak ( 350-380 000) during one year they “killed more than 1000 Germans and destroyed some 230 bridges” as they reported to London. 1944 was most active in AK fight as you know. In the neighboring Byelorussia with 3-4 times smaller population during 4 years of occupation partisans killed and injured about 1 000 000.

Continued.

Peter

“Of course our resistance doesn't compare to the much more powerful Soviet AND YUGOSLAVIAN partizan movement”

Should you add these two words ( AND YUGOSLAVIAN ) there would be no item to discuss. It’s not because I seek sympathies from the Serbs here but because it’s true. Just think about it – they rebelled in spring of 1941 when formally the USSR and Germany were allies and Wehrmacht was turning everything into ashes! What was their hope for ? Later when the communists joined the cetnics USSR was not in a condition to help them much. The English whose combat losses in WW2 composed only 10% of what they got in WW1 were ready to arm anybody against Hitler. They even supplied the USSR ! But quite little people were ready to fight before the end of the game became evident. Only in two countries on the continent the movement became uncompromised.

Like elsewhere Germans split the nation and in the end they fought each other. Same things we had in USSR and Poland. It happened that the most split were the Poles. I guess Anders’ Corps could do better things than to eat Plow in Uzbekistan and guard English pipes in Egypt. The Reserve Corps too could be of use instead eating canned meat for 4 years ect. When I write things like that I fail to be diplomatic. For you some may be heroes but people like General W.Anders are traitors to desert from the battlefield during Stalingrad. This is why I am so uncompromised over the war.

Peter

When we compare the partisan movements in Yugoslavia and Poland we have to acknowledge that though the population in Yugoalsvia was much smaller than the Polish 28 mln. their two partisan armies were bigger and more active. The suffered much bigger losses and they destroyed more of the Germans , Bulgarians , Italians ect. Sure you can improve my understanding but not drastically. I do not mean that Polish partisans didn’t mean to fight. They were not allowed to exaust themselves before the X hour. So they were the third in all main components. In any case you cannot compare AK members sitting their homes with those travelling the mountains of Yugoslavia day after day.

But if I were you I would say that the structure of the polish resistance was quite different and it composed not only of the partisans but other troops on different theatres. Then I would mention 200 000 of the reserve corpse, 70-100 000 of what is known as Anders Army , 90 000 of 1-st Army of Voisko Polskoe, maybe the 2-nd Army , plus several battalions and regiments in the English army ect. I would also mention that those were the Poles only to have the honor to storm Berlin. But to be honest I would also mention of the thousands of the Poles inside Wehrmacht. I mistrust the figures I saw (500 000 ) but 62 000 of the Poles were captured , half in Kurks. Hitler mistrusted the Poles and they had no separate troops to count them better. Besides Poles were reluctant to fight the Russians.

PETER

I respect the heroes in Warsaw but I believe that people in London committed a crime against both the Poles and the Soviets. Warsaw Riot was the only big operation that had not been coordinated beforehand. It was cynic decision and it got same cynic respond on the Soviet side. I am far from thinking that it was Mikolaicik who took the decision. He depended on the English too much … Very sad.

I’ll try to find you the report I am relying all the time. In any case it was the AK annual report and it was close to the German figures. But we both know that AK was a reserve army. It was not their guilt but it was the general strategy of the London government. Same things we saw with the Anders Army that had their first and the last battle 3 years after my fighting country armed them. So was the Reserve Corps to be introduced firsts to patrol streets months after Voisko Polskoe delivered their flags to Berlin.

Peter I skeptic about so many things that I am afraid some day to become a septic … so I am not sure of the losses delivered in Buelorussia as well. Guess they include the injured too. You’re right there always problems with the figures. Because they are part of the warfare. We even have no exact figures of the German prisoners of war. Many were wounded and died before they were delivered to the camps. In any case in May 1945 they exceeded 3,5 million. Only during Operation BAGRATION Rokossowski seized 167 000 later shown in Moscow.

Russia warn for War in Europe !.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10808642/Ukraine-crisis-threatens-peace-in-Europe-says-Russia.html

Serbia bevere for Your Northern and Northwestern Neighbours.

Surely the Russian Military Inteligense sevices knows what is going on in Europe.

Again I say - Serbia bevere !.

Arn.Sweden.

rote

It seems that numbers are the only thing that divides us.

In the Warsaw Uprising alone, the Germans lost 9,000 KIA and 7,000 missing to the AK, so that 1,000 killed that you mentioned must have been in one big skirmish or a series of engagements with the Germans. 150,000 axis fatalities were recorded in Poland at the hands of the underground armies and AK was by far the largest of them.

They fought against the Soviets, because Stalin allied with Hitler to invade and dismember Poland. This should not be surpizing to you.

1,000,000 Axis soldiers killed by Belarussian partizans is also not possible. At the hands of the Red Army in Belarus, I can definitely agree with, but not partizans. If German military KIA were 5 million (including 1,000,000 in captivity) on the Eastern Front, then I find it difficult to believe that 1,000,000 died at the hands of Belarussian partizans. 1,000,000 in Belarus of all causes (Red Army defense, Red Army offense AND Belarussian partizan activity), then yes, I can agree.