15 years since NATO airstrikes against RTS

Another dispicable insensitive post by our 'expert' Bob. As for the self hating Serb Danilo, I won't even reply to him because he's not even worth a few strokes on the keyboard.
But to answer Bob, there were approximately 90,000 deaths in the Bosnian civil war, approximately a third of them Serbian. As for this blatant war crime, deliberately targeting a news organization, by NATO, there is absolutely ZERO doubt that this is a war crime. Wesley Clark and mad cow Albright should be in the Hague, and they would be if it were actually a real court. They have the gall to criticize 'press freedom' in Russia after destroying a news organization with missiles because they did not agree with the message coming out of it? Disgraceful, criminal, disgusting....it was beyond all boundaries. They murdured 'evil' janitors, technicians, make-up staff...
NATO are cowards and war criminals, they only pick on small defenseless countries they can push around. Can you imagine if they tried to bomb RT what would happen? Or if Russia bombed CNN headquarters how Bob's friends, the neocon war criminals in Washington,, would react? Hypocrites, liars, and war criminals, may they all burn in hell for this. We will never forget, may this day live in infamy.

I am appalled at some of the comments here. On what basis was it justified for Nato to target journalists ? By that twisted logic it was the victims fault that they were killed and not the Nato forces that actually did the killing? Wake up to yourselves. Killing journalists just be cause you disagree with their narrative of the Nato bombing was an act of moral cowardice. If the situation was reversed the chorus of condemnation would have been deafening. For shame!

Danilo, Nato killed all those CIVILIANS at RTS, not the RTS director. They have the lions share of the blame. Last time I checked, killing civilians in a deliberate strike was still a war crime. Absolve Nato and blame the victims - is this your position? Your position is untenable - no rational person would support your nonsensical argument.

Bob, are you spelling your name wrong? I think the correct way is "BOOB".

What a crime that was. Killing innocent media members to suppress descent against NATO and it's agenda and then justifying it as a proper military target is just another sign of how corrupt this supposedly humanitarian intervention was. The Clintons and all of their cronies should be in jail for this and their other war crimes.

Related issue:

How many deaths in Bosnia?

I am appalled at some of the comments here. On what basis was it justified for Nato to target journalists ? By that twisted logic it was the victims fault that they were killed and not the Nato forces that actually did the killing? Wake up to yourselves. Killing journalists just be cause you disagree with their narrative of the Nato bombing was an act of moral cowardice. If the situation was reversed the chorus of condemnation would have been deafening. For shame!
(Dean, 23 April 2014 15:11)
Time to climb off your high horse and join the real world. If you look at the list there is not a journalist in the bunch. Plus it was an announced target. The people inside, all technical and guards were chosen by your own people as dispensible for the cause. So you want to cast shame, pick up a mirror.

Thank you Danilo. Your claim that RTS had advanced warning of the attack substantiates that various levels of NATO planning were involved in this event. Your insight begs the questions: 1. which NATO individual(s)provided RTS with this information? 2. What specifically did they convey? Coordinates? Time? 2.)Was this information genuine or a war time deception? 3.) Which individuals in NATO issued the command to inform RTS? Which individuals approved and were aware of the (mis)information. Who issued the command to bomb? Who was aware of the command to bomb and who was aware of the command to (mis)inform RTS? All of these details will be important in the eventual prosecution and culpability in the deaths of these individuals.

Miroslav

Of all the accusations in the former yugoslavia of people attacking or sending their own civilians to their deaths for propoganda purposes to make the other side look bad, this is the only proven one.

There's no big mystery here. The RTS director sent those innocent people to their deaths to score propagadna points. He's the one unequivocally responsible for their deaths and he's gone to jail for it.

RTS was the right hand of the milosevic evil-machine of the time, sending propaganda to the serb people of how they should kill anything non-serb and how ethnic cleansing is a just cause for serbs to carry out!

The result is well known; 250,000 non-serb in ex-Yu were killed during the war!

So in Danilo's warped mind, if a robber tells you in advance he's going to come to your house and steal all your belongings, and you stay there, he comes and kills you and your family, it's not the robber's fault, it's yours!! Brilliant!! Danilo, stupid is forever, I can't help you. NATO is 100% guilty, only an idiot can not see that.

Cheers!!

NATO=MURDERERS!!!

It is simply amazing and disgusting how these Serb haters justify this war crime. So it was supposedly an announced bombing and that excuses this evil crime for killing innocent civilians. So now NATO can just announce something is a target to disable whatever service that target provides.

NATO also announced bombing bridges in Belgrade and Serbs wore target t-shirts and organised concerts on them. According to those Serb haters, if NATO bombed those bridges and killed those civilians it would be the fault of the organisers.

Just goes to show how much hatred some people have that they ignore the obvious and disgusting crime committed here and try to blame the victims. Truely evil.

I gathered from the article, this was NOT a surprise attack, and the government and the RTS was fully aware that it was to be bombed and THEY left innocent victims inside to perish.
Hmmm, I guess Milosevic WAS brutal to his own people also.

I guess they needed some martyrs.

refuse to reply to me all you like, Dragane, but what I say is a matter of public record.

1) RTS had advanced warning of the attack
2) RTS director, knowing this, conciously sent those people to die in the bomging
3) He went to jail for this.

So, cry all you want about NATO being responsible. Cry all you want about how much you don't like me. Cry all you want about how everyone but Serbs are responsible for everything that happened in ex-yu. None of it changes the facts.

It wouldn't even matter if people had not been killed in the attack. This and other NATO targets will simple acts of sadism. They had no military legitimacy. The entire bombing campaign against Serbia was utterly out of proportion, except that Serbia was defenseless and could not fight back.

Dragan-

NATO changed the rules of war - bombing civilians because you don't like what they say.

Also, it has never been an established fact that NATO gave clear advanced warning of their planned attack of the RTS, as required.

no rational person would support your nonsensical argument.
(Dean, 23 April 2014 16:28)
I think you mean no fanatical Serb looking to play the eternal victim card would support the argument. But this was not some free press that a military unit targeted. This was a state owned, state controlled, Milosevic propaganda spewing source. They had warning it was targeted, any civilians on the premises were placed there for the agenda and it helps so you can cry "Poor us always the victim to that brutal force NATO, as if you did nothing to be attacked.

Danilo, Nato killed all those CIVILIANS at RTS, not the RTS director. They have the lions share of the blame. Last time I checked, killing civilians in a deliberate strike was still a war crime. Absolve Nato and blame the victims - is this your position? Your position is untenable - no rational person would support your nonsensical argument.
(Dean, 23 April 2014 16:28)


NATO didn't kill those civilians. NATO destroyed the building and gave advanced notice that they would do so. The director of RTS killed those civillians by failing to evacuate the building after getting the notice to do so. He went to jail for it for 10 years.

Astonishing that you want to excuse this guy just because it doesn't fit in to how you would like to see things.

Absolve NATO? of what? They warned that they were going to throw a missle at the building and that's what they did.

What's your position on the RTS director sending the workers back into the building after he was told that a missle was on it's way?

They were used as human shields by Serbia.

Now as an Albanian, this television was used as a propaganda machinery against us, it incited hate and even the destruction of my people. It was where most evil came from, and where most hateful things towards our people came from. It was the same as Gestapo's mouthpiece. Good to see Milosevic's brainwashing machine taken out of Service.

--marKo, the criminal is a Serb. He was sentenced for it. You are trying to muddy the waters but it doesn't work like that. If I tell you not to let your children walk at night in Gary, Indiana and you make your children walk at night, then you are willfully sending them to get killed or murdered. You are responsible for the crime. Now, the difference here is that Serbia was at war and RTS was a legitimate military target just like Serbia's military bases were while your children haven't hurt anyone and should not be a target. This is a huge difference. Albanian civilians died because of RTS, hence it was a legitimate military target.

I wouldn't take Danilo too seriously, he's an anti Serb obtuse clown with absolutely zero ability of logical thought. If it was Russia that accused CNN of propaganda (which it is very guilty of bye the way), and warned CNN headquarters that he would be bombing them ahead of time, and then did it and wound up killing 16 civilians, I guarantee you Danilo (and Bob) will be the first on here to accuse Russia of blatant war crimes, killing journalists, targeting civilians ...etc...etc

Anybody who doesn't see that NATO is 100% guilty of a gross war crime here, is frankly, an idiot. Period.

Cheers!!

Danilo, I didn't mention you specifically but you replied to my points about anti-Serbs so that is noted. Where is the evidence that NATO warned Serbia of its impending war crime? That case was done at a time when the government was overthrown and a puppet regime installed. Much like we see in Ukraine now, except we didn't have a strong Russia to protect us.

So even if the director was ordered to evacuate the building by his superiors and he disobeyed then he certainly should answer to that but I have seen no such evidence and it does not excuse anyone of their war crimes. Like I mentioned, Serbs held concerts on bridges allegedly after similar warnings.

However, what you are defending is that NATO can legally bomb any civilian infrastructure, the media, hospitals, trains, homes, power stations and so on just by warning it is a target. Imagine the precedent that will start, you can put a standstill to London's underground, shut off CNN and the BBC, evacuate major hospitals and black out major cities.

Your agument is quite silly. Just another reflection of stupidity coming from anti-Serbs. Don't you think that NATO should answer for its crimes along with Clinton, Blair, Half-bright, Salona, Clarke and the rest? Why are their war crimes unanswered? They are much more serious than the ex-director of RTS.

Danilo, think again,Bob and the rest of the usual anti-anything Serb brigade get off your high horses you misfits and stop over-indulging in historical revisionism, a pastime the lot of you seem to love wallowing in.If the shoe don't fit you'll try to make it fit please stop insulting our intelligence this hog-wash won't wash.

Absolve NATO? of what? They warned that they were going to throw a missle at the building and that's what they did.

What's your position on the RTS director sending the workers back into the building after he was told that a missle was on it's way?
(Danilo, 23 April 2014 21:47)



If we follow Danilo’s advice then the defence of a country becomes impossible. All the aggressor has to do is produce a list of all government buildings, schools, hospitals, housing complexes, kindergardens, etc and say that they are all targeted for destruction. Out hero, President Danilo, would then order the evacutation of all buildings and have the population live in parks and eat grass until NATO tanks roll over them.

What Danilo can’t grasp is that the defence on one’s country is hard and demands sacrifice. The country must continue to function despite attacks from NATO. This means that trains must continue to run even though they are targeted. It means that maternity hospitals must stay open even though NATO bombed these, too. It means that the electricity power grid must be repaired and maintained even if its brave workers die.

The RTS workers were murdered by NATO. May those Serbian heros rest in peace.

Dear Danilo,

I have read the article as well as all of your assertions very carefully.
You claimed the existence of evidence on the information flow from NATO to RTS. In you last response, you now express doubt about the source of evidence. Please enlighten us "ingorant" and non-prejudical individuals with facts and source documentation. Like you, we all have different doubts about the truth associated with these crimes. These doubts can only be addressed with detailed evidence. You, more than anyone, should be sensitive to the potential misuse of misinformation and propaganda. Rather than labeling my queries as dumb and ignorant, your arguments would be better served by providing accurate referencing to source documents.

If a group warns someone that they are going to commit a violent crime, and then the group commits the violent crime, the responsibility does not fall on the victim for not mitigating the criminal's actions. mitigation may be a duty of care however- if it were not for the crime, there would be nothing to mitigate.
Anyone who pretends not to understand that is willfully ignorant.

Miroslave,

This isn't a "claim". The RTS director was sentenced to 10 years in a Serbian court in 2002! This is all a matter of public record, for crying out loud. It's even in this very article that you're commenting on:

"Former director of RTS, Dragoljub Milanović, was put on trial and in 2002 sentenced to ten years in prison on the grounds that he did not comply with an order of the then federal government to evacuate people and equipment from Aberdareva and Hilandarska streets. "



"The eventual prosecution"?? The prosecution happened 12 years ago. The guy's already out of jail.

No Peete

It's Bob.

I'm glad to push your buttons.

Excellent article written objectively by survivor, Milos Markovic, who was in the RTS building the night it was bombed by NATO.

http://piazzadcara.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/on-the-day-a-tragic-era-started-by-milos-markovic/

"As a witness (in the court trial of Dragoljub Milanovic)I did not want to take the side of defense nor the side of prosecution. I just wanted to contribute to the objective insight into the whole event. It was not my fault that the facts were on Milanovic’s side. I was not his friend, we just had a professional relationship. However, the Court Council interrupted me in my testifying when I announced that I was just about to shed light on some facts important for reviewing the whole event. It was clear to me immediately that the verdict had already been passed, and that the entire trial was just sheer formality, and a disguise for a political verdict. He was sentenced to ten years in prison, and that based on the non-existing document, a draft of the internal decision that was not signed nor stamped, without any legal effect. The known perpetrator (NATO)of the crime was absolved, made a friend, and the one who objectively could not have done anything for our safety was convicted. Simply, the victim was convicted as a criminal, and the true criminal(NATO)was promoted into a true merciful angel."

Dear Danilo,

Please help me. How many crimes were committed during this tragic event? We can all agree that only with an examination of the detailed evidence can we start to investigate the various dimensions of this criminal enterprise. Your central thesis and "crying-out loud" claim was that NATO supplied RTS with advance information of the bombing. This is an important piece of evidence. I do not have it and do not know where to find it. Please help me. Provide the reference to the NATO documentation that you cite so frequently. The rest of us may benefit from your scholarly help as most of us are not prejudicial in nature and only wish to pass judgement with a careful examination of all of the facts before concluding that no other crimes were committed.

Serbia state TV apologises for Milosevic-era propaganda

Milosevic-era propaganda
RTS posts statement on website apologising to viewers and neighbouring countries for its reporting during 1990s
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/24/serbia-state-tv-apologises-propaganda

(Miroslav, 24 April 2014 16:27
First do not want Danilo to have credit for my post. Very well written about having evidence before coming to conclusions but I think that if YOUR own courts say that this guy should have evacuated then that should give the ordinary person reason to believe it.
Now how about playing your speech to all your peers who want Albanians punished for organ trafficking when no one has produced one piece of credible evidence. Or do you have any evidence Thaci is guilty of being part of the mafia before or now, or are you just perpetuating rumors??
You want Danilo to give you copies of documents, If we apply your standard of proof to the new court, there will probably be no convictions.

Miroslav
(Miroslav, 23 April 2014 17:02)
Living in a dream world, aren't we?

Dear Danilo,
Thank you for crying outloud. Despite this volume, I didn't read in your response that you included any details that I requested regarding the specific information that NATO commanders had and supplied to RTS. If it is not a "claim", then please tell us where we may find this information. No crying necessary, a link to the factual information will suffice.

Dear fellow commentators,

A consensus among the various contributors is that sixteen victims tragically and unnecessarily perished.

Many colleagues have repeatedly emphasized that RTS "was informed in advance" and infer that these deaths were avoidable. We must thoroughly examine all of the evidence, in order to assess whether prima facie additional individuals should be indicted and whether this evidence is sufficient to expand culpability in this criminal enterprise.

Minimally, the precise information regarding the command and operational control of NATO`s information disclosure to RTS, as well as the chain of custody of this information, should be thoroughly evaluated. Danilo and any other experts on this tragic event, please do supply us with these details. Please forgive my naivety and reluctance to pre-judge without these important details.

Miroslav,
Maybe reading the article can help your ignorance.
"Former director of RTS, Dragoljub Milanović, was put on trial and in 2002 sentenced to ten years in prison on the grounds that he did not comply with an order of the then federal government to evacuate people and equipment from Aberdareva and Hilandarska streets"
I doubt the govt consulted a crystal ball and got this information. But it shows that they were not serious in removing everyone "only the important ones" otherwise the govt would have done the evacuations and not simply tell this individual to. If there was no pre-knowledge there would have been no crime.
But I understand your dilemma "playing dumb" seems to be a common factor in these matters.

Dear Some people...,

I note that your argument is based on the grounds that "... did not comply with an order of the then federal government."
Are you suggesting that orders of the then federal should not have been questioned? The fog and propaganda of war provide for a confusing environment. How many individuals failed to comply with orders of the then federal government and why?
The only possible legitimate source of the advance warning that Danilo claims to exist must have originated with NATO.
Provide this source documentation and perhaps we may be able to gain additional clarity on this tragic event and determine who else should be culpable.

Alternatively, we could follow your argument and try to convince readers that the orders of the then federal government should have been followed by all citizens and there would have been no pretext for NATO bombing.

We're flogging a dead horse here... There was a war between NATO and Serbia. Whether NATO attacked Serbia legally or not is immaterial; the question here is the conduct during the war, not the war itself.

During a war, even though regrettable, people are killed. That's why political leaders should try to avoid the war. So the question is whether the combatants in the war tried to limit as much as they could civilian casualties or they deliberately targeted civilians or civilian targets without any proportional military gain.

NATO's actions during the war, and the RTS bombing specifically, where reviewed by the UN in 2000 and the conclusion was not to commence a criminal investigation related to the bombing of the Serbian TV and Radio Station. End of the story... especially since the most patriotic Serbs always ask for the UN to review the actions against Serbs.

considering it is true that media and communications centers can be classified as legitimate military targets according to the rules of war, one has no real strong argument against nato's bombing of rts, however, it would be nice for nato contries to stop crying like blubbering children anytime a journalist is killed or kidnaped in a war zone, as they too are legitimate targets. if they don't like it, than they can change the rules, but that won't happen because the media is always an important target in the propoganda war that always undershadows any real war.

The basis of Danillo's arguement is that it is not Nato's fault that civilians died in the building, because the civilians didn't get out of the way. Why bother argueing with him, his entire arguement is silly. He merely pretends not to understand that it is wrong to bomb tv stations.

Just goes to show how much hatred some people have that they ignore the obvious and disgusting crime committed here and try to blame the victims. Truely evil.
(Zoran, 23 April 2014 20:49)


who's blaming the victims? I'm blaming the guy that send those people to their deaths.

So, Zoran, just to make sure we're not 'ignoring the obvious' here. What do you have to say about the RTS director sending those people back into the building knowing they would get killed. Any comment on that?

Cheers!!
(Dragan, 23 April 2014 17:16)

Dragan, there are two events here.

1) NATO bombing the building and whether or not that was a legitimate target
2) The director of RTS knowingly sending all those people back into the building knowing they would be killed.

you can debate the legitimacy of #1, whether bombing that building or not

What about #2, Dragane. If you can take a few deep breaths and try to answer a simple question without resorting to histrionics and answer like a big boy, that would be great.

Was it correct for the RTS director to not evacuate the building after he was notified that the building would be bombed?

Simplesimon writes: considering it is true that media and communications centers can be classified as legitimate military targets...

However, Danilo is enforcing that the targeting and information about the targeting was a highly coordinated operation by NATO the information was supplied in advance to the RTS.
One of my many questions deals with the specific information that was provided by NATO to the RTS. If the content was false and misleading, such as the bombing would be on April 25th, when in fact it occurred on April 23rd, the consequence and motive of supplying the misleading information would have contributed to these avoidably tragic deaths. The specific information is important in determining culpability of all suspects.

Danilo: please do supply us with this detailed information (ie content and author, date references link etc) that you so convincingly know NATO shared with the RTS.

(Ornithologist, 24 April 2014 02:09)

It's you who's engaging in historical revisionism. RTS director went to jail for sending those people to their deaths. Nothing "anti-Serb" about it. It's just facts.


(Miroslav, 24 April 2014 08:14)

Do your own research. Again, RTS director served a long jail senence for this crime.



The basis of Danillo's arguement is that it is not Nato's fault that civilians died in the building, because the civilians didn't get out of the way. Why bother argueing with him, his entire arguement is silly. He merely pretends not to understand that it is wrong to bomb tv stations.
(marKo, 24 April 2014 00:23)

No one is blaming the victims here. Quit trying to twist it into that. The civillians died because their boss knowingly put them in harms way so they would die. Why did he do it? So that you and others could for years cry about how NATO "targeted civillians". He sent those people to their deaths so that you could perpectuate a picture years later about how NATO "targeted civillians". I hope you think their deaths were worth it. Personally, I think it's an evil crime.

(Michael Thomas, 24 April 2014 10:29)

No one asked those people if they wanted to "make a sacrifice" in order to score propaganda points. They were murdered.

So, what? You think it was a noble thing that their boss sent them to their deaths for no reason than cheap propaganda points? Were their deaths worth it?

Dear Some people...,

The standard of proof that I continue to demand and sincerely hope emerges one day for all maligned people of this region, is actually a minimal standard for any just society. No one can be convicted without evidence...the suggestion is a crime against justice.

I do think there a some important concepts that we have collectively raised and thank all for the civil discourse. I trust that B92 will consider my editorial suggestion and transfer this article and comment thread to the "Crime" section of the web site.

Our responsibilities in contributing to justice is grounded on a common set of moral values that allow us to recognize crime.
The commentators from all sides of this debate have recognized crimes associated with this event and have focussed their arguments on individual culpability.
The original B92 article of ~650 words uses the verb "kill" six (6) times, refers to "crime" in three (3) instances, and the word "civilian" three (3) times. The cacophony from the NGOs listed in the article unequivocally refer to crime.
I can not understand why the editors of B92 have chosen to categorize this article and the ensuing comments as "politics".
If the media and editors in ex-YU entities continue to fail to apply moral values to recognize crime and label it appropriately, then we probably have much farther to go to reach a just society.
As readers and commentators, our moral responsibility is to challenge this serious error in editorial judgement with B92.

B92 editors, join the your diverse moral readers and commentators: please label a crime as a crime.

Dear Some people,

My apologies for the misappropriation of comments.
I do think that that the justice system(s) in the various entities of former YU still have long way to go. These are not MY courts. My court, in fact, rests on shoulders and between my ears and demands thorough evidence before passing judgement. In this specific case, where many contributors have specifically assigned blame with evidentiary information that could have only originated with NATO, I simply asked for a documented reference. The lack of any evidentiary support in this regard is raising additional questions in my court.

In the year 2014, 15th years after these tragic killings, B92 has taken a blatantly obvious crime topic and placed it in their "politics" section. An excellent example of extreme post-Orwellian double speak. It appears that the current editors at B92 are still mimicking ex-YU media predecessors and invoking warped morality in the classification of obvious crimes. I fear for the future, and wouldn't be surprised that in 2015 on the 16 anniversary, we may find reference to this tragedy in the sport or entertainment sections of B92.

Dear ICJ,

If you are referring to my post, then my rebuttal is that we are not flogging a dead horse, but are rather flogging a decision from a living group of editors with influence on a society that has had morality manipulated through years of unnecessary war. Unfortunately, history has shown the "UN" as an organization that is all too often politically manipulated by its more powerful members and consequently we should all have doubts regarding it's moral compass. I am more reassured that both the "serb" and "anti-serb" voices here that have commonly referred to the criminal elements of this event. Why won't the editors of B92 categorize this subject in the crime section?

refuse to reply to me all you like, Dragane, but what I say is a matter of public record.

1) RTS had advanced warning of the attack
2) RTS director, knowing this, conciously sent those people to die in the bomging
3) He went to jail for this.

So, cry all you want about NATO being responsible. Cry all you want about how much you don't like me. Cry all you want about how everyone but Serbs are responsible for everything that happened in ex-yu. None of it changes the facts.

Related issue:

How many deaths in Bosnia?

RTS was the right hand of the milosevic evil-machine of the time, sending propaganda to the serb people of how they should kill anything non-serb and how ethnic cleansing is a just cause for serbs to carry out!

The result is well known; 250,000 non-serb in ex-Yu were killed during the war!

Of all the accusations in the former yugoslavia of people attacking or sending their own civilians to their deaths for propoganda purposes to make the other side look bad, this is the only proven one.

There's no big mystery here. The RTS director sent those innocent people to their deaths to score propagadna points. He's the one unequivocally responsible for their deaths and he's gone to jail for it.

I gathered from the article, this was NOT a surprise attack, and the government and the RTS was fully aware that it was to be bombed and THEY left innocent victims inside to perish.
Hmmm, I guess Milosevic WAS brutal to his own people also.

I guess they needed some martyrs.

I am appalled at some of the comments here. On what basis was it justified for Nato to target journalists ? By that twisted logic it was the victims fault that they were killed and not the Nato forces that actually did the killing? Wake up to yourselves. Killing journalists just be cause you disagree with their narrative of the Nato bombing was an act of moral cowardice. If the situation was reversed the chorus of condemnation would have been deafening. For shame!
(Dean, 23 April 2014 15:11)
Time to climb off your high horse and join the real world. If you look at the list there is not a journalist in the bunch. Plus it was an announced target. The people inside, all technical and guards were chosen by your own people as dispensible for the cause. So you want to cast shame, pick up a mirror.

I am appalled at some of the comments here. On what basis was it justified for Nato to target journalists ? By that twisted logic it was the victims fault that they were killed and not the Nato forces that actually did the killing? Wake up to yourselves. Killing journalists just be cause you disagree with their narrative of the Nato bombing was an act of moral cowardice. If the situation was reversed the chorus of condemnation would have been deafening. For shame!

Another dispicable insensitive post by our 'expert' Bob. As for the self hating Serb Danilo, I won't even reply to him because he's not even worth a few strokes on the keyboard.
But to answer Bob, there were approximately 90,000 deaths in the Bosnian civil war, approximately a third of them Serbian. As for this blatant war crime, deliberately targeting a news organization, by NATO, there is absolutely ZERO doubt that this is a war crime. Wesley Clark and mad cow Albright should be in the Hague, and they would be if it were actually a real court. They have the gall to criticize 'press freedom' in Russia after destroying a news organization with missiles because they did not agree with the message coming out of it? Disgraceful, criminal, disgusting....it was beyond all boundaries. They murdured 'evil' janitors, technicians, make-up staff...
NATO are cowards and war criminals, they only pick on small defenseless countries they can push around. Can you imagine if they tried to bomb RT what would happen? Or if Russia bombed CNN headquarters how Bob's friends, the neocon war criminals in Washington,, would react? Hypocrites, liars, and war criminals, may they all burn in hell for this. We will never forget, may this day live in infamy.

Bob, are you spelling your name wrong? I think the correct way is "BOOB".

Danilo, Nato killed all those CIVILIANS at RTS, not the RTS director. They have the lions share of the blame. Last time I checked, killing civilians in a deliberate strike was still a war crime. Absolve Nato and blame the victims - is this your position? Your position is untenable - no rational person would support your nonsensical argument.
(Dean, 23 April 2014 16:28)


NATO didn't kill those civilians. NATO destroyed the building and gave advanced notice that they would do so. The director of RTS killed those civillians by failing to evacuate the building after getting the notice to do so. He went to jail for it for 10 years.

Astonishing that you want to excuse this guy just because it doesn't fit in to how you would like to see things.

Absolve NATO? of what? They warned that they were going to throw a missle at the building and that's what they did.

What's your position on the RTS director sending the workers back into the building after he was told that a missle was on it's way?

Miroslave,

This isn't a "claim". The RTS director was sentenced to 10 years in a Serbian court in 2002! This is all a matter of public record, for crying out loud. It's even in this very article that you're commenting on:

"Former director of RTS, Dragoljub Milanović, was put on trial and in 2002 sentenced to ten years in prison on the grounds that he did not comply with an order of the then federal government to evacuate people and equipment from Aberdareva and Hilandarska streets. "



"The eventual prosecution"?? The prosecution happened 12 years ago. The guy's already out of jail.

It wouldn't even matter if people had not been killed in the attack. This and other NATO targets will simple acts of sadism. They had no military legitimacy. The entire bombing campaign against Serbia was utterly out of proportion, except that Serbia was defenseless and could not fight back.

Danilo, Nato killed all those CIVILIANS at RTS, not the RTS director. They have the lions share of the blame. Last time I checked, killing civilians in a deliberate strike was still a war crime. Absolve Nato and blame the victims - is this your position? Your position is untenable - no rational person would support your nonsensical argument.

no rational person would support your nonsensical argument.
(Dean, 23 April 2014 16:28)
I think you mean no fanatical Serb looking to play the eternal victim card would support the argument. But this was not some free press that a military unit targeted. This was a state owned, state controlled, Milosevic propaganda spewing source. They had warning it was targeted, any civilians on the premises were placed there for the agenda and it helps so you can cry "Poor us always the victim to that brutal force NATO, as if you did nothing to be attacked.

What a crime that was. Killing innocent media members to suppress descent against NATO and it's agenda and then justifying it as a proper military target is just another sign of how corrupt this supposedly humanitarian intervention was. The Clintons and all of their cronies should be in jail for this and their other war crimes.

It is simply amazing and disgusting how these Serb haters justify this war crime. So it was supposedly an announced bombing and that excuses this evil crime for killing innocent civilians. So now NATO can just announce something is a target to disable whatever service that target provides.

NATO also announced bombing bridges in Belgrade and Serbs wore target t-shirts and organised concerts on them. According to those Serb haters, if NATO bombed those bridges and killed those civilians it would be the fault of the organisers.

Just goes to show how much hatred some people have that they ignore the obvious and disgusting crime committed here and try to blame the victims. Truely evil.

(Ornithologist, 24 April 2014 02:09)

It's you who's engaging in historical revisionism. RTS director went to jail for sending those people to their deaths. Nothing "anti-Serb" about it. It's just facts.


(Miroslav, 24 April 2014 08:14)

Do your own research. Again, RTS director served a long jail senence for this crime.



The basis of Danillo's arguement is that it is not Nato's fault that civilians died in the building, because the civilians didn't get out of the way. Why bother argueing with him, his entire arguement is silly. He merely pretends not to understand that it is wrong to bomb tv stations.
(marKo, 24 April 2014 00:23)

No one is blaming the victims here. Quit trying to twist it into that. The civillians died because their boss knowingly put them in harms way so they would die. Why did he do it? So that you and others could for years cry about how NATO "targeted civillians". He sent those people to their deaths so that you could perpectuate a picture years later about how NATO "targeted civillians". I hope you think their deaths were worth it. Personally, I think it's an evil crime.

(Michael Thomas, 24 April 2014 10:29)

No one asked those people if they wanted to "make a sacrifice" in order to score propaganda points. They were murdered.

So, what? You think it was a noble thing that their boss sent them to their deaths for no reason than cheap propaganda points? Were their deaths worth it?

No Peete

It's Bob.

I'm glad to push your buttons.

Thank you Danilo. Your claim that RTS had advanced warning of the attack substantiates that various levels of NATO planning were involved in this event. Your insight begs the questions: 1. which NATO individual(s)provided RTS with this information? 2. What specifically did they convey? Coordinates? Time? 2.)Was this information genuine or a war time deception? 3.) Which individuals in NATO issued the command to inform RTS? Which individuals approved and were aware of the (mis)information. Who issued the command to bomb? Who was aware of the command to bomb and who was aware of the command to (mis)inform RTS? All of these details will be important in the eventual prosecution and culpability in the deaths of these individuals.

Miroslav

So in Danilo's warped mind, if a robber tells you in advance he's going to come to your house and steal all your belongings, and you stay there, he comes and kills you and your family, it's not the robber's fault, it's yours!! Brilliant!! Danilo, stupid is forever, I can't help you. NATO is 100% guilty, only an idiot can not see that.

Cheers!!

Dragan-

NATO changed the rules of war - bombing civilians because you don't like what they say.

Also, it has never been an established fact that NATO gave clear advanced warning of their planned attack of the RTS, as required.

NATO=MURDERERS!!!

If a group warns someone that they are going to commit a violent crime, and then the group commits the violent crime, the responsibility does not fall on the victim for not mitigating the criminal's actions. mitigation may be a duty of care however- if it were not for the crime, there would be nothing to mitigate.
Anyone who pretends not to understand that is willfully ignorant.

Cheers!!
(Dragan, 23 April 2014 17:16)

Dragan, there are two events here.

1) NATO bombing the building and whether or not that was a legitimate target
2) The director of RTS knowingly sending all those people back into the building knowing they would be killed.

you can debate the legitimacy of #1, whether bombing that building or not

What about #2, Dragane. If you can take a few deep breaths and try to answer a simple question without resorting to histrionics and answer like a big boy, that would be great.

Was it correct for the RTS director to not evacuate the building after he was notified that the building would be bombed?

They were used as human shields by Serbia.

Now as an Albanian, this television was used as a propaganda machinery against us, it incited hate and even the destruction of my people. It was where most evil came from, and where most hateful things towards our people came from. It was the same as Gestapo's mouthpiece. Good to see Milosevic's brainwashing machine taken out of Service.

--marKo, the criminal is a Serb. He was sentenced for it. You are trying to muddy the waters but it doesn't work like that. If I tell you not to let your children walk at night in Gary, Indiana and you make your children walk at night, then you are willfully sending them to get killed or murdered. You are responsible for the crime. Now, the difference here is that Serbia was at war and RTS was a legitimate military target just like Serbia's military bases were while your children haven't hurt anyone and should not be a target. This is a huge difference. Albanian civilians died because of RTS, hence it was a legitimate military target.

Just goes to show how much hatred some people have that they ignore the obvious and disgusting crime committed here and try to blame the victims. Truely evil.
(Zoran, 23 April 2014 20:49)


who's blaming the victims? I'm blaming the guy that send those people to their deaths.

So, Zoran, just to make sure we're not 'ignoring the obvious' here. What do you have to say about the RTS director sending those people back into the building knowing they would get killed. Any comment on that?

Excellent article written objectively by survivor, Milos Markovic, who was in the RTS building the night it was bombed by NATO.

http://piazzadcara.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/on-the-day-a-tragic-era-started-by-milos-markovic/

"As a witness (in the court trial of Dragoljub Milanovic)I did not want to take the side of defense nor the side of prosecution. I just wanted to contribute to the objective insight into the whole event. It was not my fault that the facts were on Milanovic’s side. I was not his friend, we just had a professional relationship. However, the Court Council interrupted me in my testifying when I announced that I was just about to shed light on some facts important for reviewing the whole event. It was clear to me immediately that the verdict had already been passed, and that the entire trial was just sheer formality, and a disguise for a political verdict. He was sentenced to ten years in prison, and that based on the non-existing document, a draft of the internal decision that was not signed nor stamped, without any legal effect. The known perpetrator (NATO)of the crime was absolved, made a friend, and the one who objectively could not have done anything for our safety was convicted. Simply, the victim was convicted as a criminal, and the true criminal(NATO)was promoted into a true merciful angel."

Absolve NATO? of what? They warned that they were going to throw a missle at the building and that's what they did.

What's your position on the RTS director sending the workers back into the building after he was told that a missle was on it's way?
(Danilo, 23 April 2014 21:47)



If we follow Danilo’s advice then the defence of a country becomes impossible. All the aggressor has to do is produce a list of all government buildings, schools, hospitals, housing complexes, kindergardens, etc and say that they are all targeted for destruction. Out hero, President Danilo, would then order the evacutation of all buildings and have the population live in parks and eat grass until NATO tanks roll over them.

What Danilo can’t grasp is that the defence on one’s country is hard and demands sacrifice. The country must continue to function despite attacks from NATO. This means that trains must continue to run even though they are targeted. It means that maternity hospitals must stay open even though NATO bombed these, too. It means that the electricity power grid must be repaired and maintained even if its brave workers die.

The RTS workers were murdered by NATO. May those Serbian heros rest in peace.

(Miroslav, 24 April 2014 16:27
First do not want Danilo to have credit for my post. Very well written about having evidence before coming to conclusions but I think that if YOUR own courts say that this guy should have evacuated then that should give the ordinary person reason to believe it.
Now how about playing your speech to all your peers who want Albanians punished for organ trafficking when no one has produced one piece of credible evidence. Or do you have any evidence Thaci is guilty of being part of the mafia before or now, or are you just perpetuating rumors??
You want Danilo to give you copies of documents, If we apply your standard of proof to the new court, there will probably be no convictions.

Danilo, I didn't mention you specifically but you replied to my points about anti-Serbs so that is noted. Where is the evidence that NATO warned Serbia of its impending war crime? That case was done at a time when the government was overthrown and a puppet regime installed. Much like we see in Ukraine now, except we didn't have a strong Russia to protect us.

So even if the director was ordered to evacuate the building by his superiors and he disobeyed then he certainly should answer to that but I have seen no such evidence and it does not excuse anyone of their war crimes. Like I mentioned, Serbs held concerts on bridges allegedly after similar warnings.

However, what you are defending is that NATO can legally bomb any civilian infrastructure, the media, hospitals, trains, homes, power stations and so on just by warning it is a target. Imagine the precedent that will start, you can put a standstill to London's underground, shut off CNN and the BBC, evacuate major hospitals and black out major cities.

Your agument is quite silly. Just another reflection of stupidity coming from anti-Serbs. Don't you think that NATO should answer for its crimes along with Clinton, Blair, Half-bright, Salona, Clarke and the rest? Why are their war crimes unanswered? They are much more serious than the ex-director of RTS.

Dear Some people...,

The standard of proof that I continue to demand and sincerely hope emerges one day for all maligned people of this region, is actually a minimal standard for any just society. No one can be convicted without evidence...the suggestion is a crime against justice.

I do think there a some important concepts that we have collectively raised and thank all for the civil discourse. I trust that B92 will consider my editorial suggestion and transfer this article and comment thread to the "Crime" section of the web site.

I wouldn't take Danilo too seriously, he's an anti Serb obtuse clown with absolutely zero ability of logical thought. If it was Russia that accused CNN of propaganda (which it is very guilty of bye the way), and warned CNN headquarters that he would be bombing them ahead of time, and then did it and wound up killing 16 civilians, I guarantee you Danilo (and Bob) will be the first on here to accuse Russia of blatant war crimes, killing journalists, targeting civilians ...etc...etc

Anybody who doesn't see that NATO is 100% guilty of a gross war crime here, is frankly, an idiot. Period.

Cheers!!

Dear ICJ,

If you are referring to my post, then my rebuttal is that we are not flogging a dead horse, but are rather flogging a decision from a living group of editors with influence on a society that has had morality manipulated through years of unnecessary war. Unfortunately, history has shown the "UN" as an organization that is all too often politically manipulated by its more powerful members and consequently we should all have doubts regarding it's moral compass. I am more reassured that both the "serb" and "anti-serb" voices here that have commonly referred to the criminal elements of this event. Why won't the editors of B92 categorize this subject in the crime section?

Miroslav
(Miroslav, 23 April 2014 17:02)
Living in a dream world, aren't we?

considering it is true that media and communications centers can be classified as legitimate military targets according to the rules of war, one has no real strong argument against nato's bombing of rts, however, it would be nice for nato contries to stop crying like blubbering children anytime a journalist is killed or kidnaped in a war zone, as they too are legitimate targets. if they don't like it, than they can change the rules, but that won't happen because the media is always an important target in the propoganda war that always undershadows any real war.

Miroslav,
Maybe reading the article can help your ignorance.
"Former director of RTS, Dragoljub Milanović, was put on trial and in 2002 sentenced to ten years in prison on the grounds that he did not comply with an order of the then federal government to evacuate people and equipment from Aberdareva and Hilandarska streets"
I doubt the govt consulted a crystal ball and got this information. But it shows that they were not serious in removing everyone "only the important ones" otherwise the govt would have done the evacuations and not simply tell this individual to. If there was no pre-knowledge there would have been no crime.
But I understand your dilemma "playing dumb" seems to be a common factor in these matters.

Dear Danilo,

I have read the article as well as all of your assertions very carefully.
You claimed the existence of evidence on the information flow from NATO to RTS. In you last response, you now express doubt about the source of evidence. Please enlighten us "ingorant" and non-prejudical individuals with facts and source documentation. Like you, we all have different doubts about the truth associated with these crimes. These doubts can only be addressed with detailed evidence. You, more than anyone, should be sensitive to the potential misuse of misinformation and propaganda. Rather than labeling my queries as dumb and ignorant, your arguments would be better served by providing accurate referencing to source documents.

Serbia state TV apologises for Milosevic-era propaganda

Milosevic-era propaganda
RTS posts statement on website apologising to viewers and neighbouring countries for its reporting during 1990s
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/24/serbia-state-tv-apologises-propaganda

Dear Some people,

My apologies for the misappropriation of comments.
I do think that that the justice system(s) in the various entities of former YU still have long way to go. These are not MY courts. My court, in fact, rests on shoulders and between my ears and demands thorough evidence before passing judgement. In this specific case, where many contributors have specifically assigned blame with evidentiary information that could have only originated with NATO, I simply asked for a documented reference. The lack of any evidentiary support in this regard is raising additional questions in my court.

The basis of Danillo's arguement is that it is not Nato's fault that civilians died in the building, because the civilians didn't get out of the way. Why bother argueing with him, his entire arguement is silly. He merely pretends not to understand that it is wrong to bomb tv stations.

Dear Danilo,
Thank you for crying outloud. Despite this volume, I didn't read in your response that you included any details that I requested regarding the specific information that NATO commanders had and supplied to RTS. If it is not a "claim", then please tell us where we may find this information. No crying necessary, a link to the factual information will suffice.

Danilo, think again,Bob and the rest of the usual anti-anything Serb brigade get off your high horses you misfits and stop over-indulging in historical revisionism, a pastime the lot of you seem to love wallowing in.If the shoe don't fit you'll try to make it fit please stop insulting our intelligence this hog-wash won't wash.

Dear fellow commentators,

A consensus among the various contributors is that sixteen victims tragically and unnecessarily perished.

Many colleagues have repeatedly emphasized that RTS "was informed in advance" and infer that these deaths were avoidable. We must thoroughly examine all of the evidence, in order to assess whether prima facie additional individuals should be indicted and whether this evidence is sufficient to expand culpability in this criminal enterprise.

Minimally, the precise information regarding the command and operational control of NATO`s information disclosure to RTS, as well as the chain of custody of this information, should be thoroughly evaluated. Danilo and any other experts on this tragic event, please do supply us with these details. Please forgive my naivety and reluctance to pre-judge without these important details.

Dear Danilo,

Please help me. How many crimes were committed during this tragic event? We can all agree that only with an examination of the detailed evidence can we start to investigate the various dimensions of this criminal enterprise. Your central thesis and "crying-out loud" claim was that NATO supplied RTS with advance information of the bombing. This is an important piece of evidence. I do not have it and do not know where to find it. Please help me. Provide the reference to the NATO documentation that you cite so frequently. The rest of us may benefit from your scholarly help as most of us are not prejudicial in nature and only wish to pass judgement with a careful examination of all of the facts before concluding that no other crimes were committed.

Our responsibilities in contributing to justice is grounded on a common set of moral values that allow us to recognize crime.
The commentators from all sides of this debate have recognized crimes associated with this event and have focussed their arguments on individual culpability.
The original B92 article of ~650 words uses the verb "kill" six (6) times, refers to "crime" in three (3) instances, and the word "civilian" three (3) times. The cacophony from the NGOs listed in the article unequivocally refer to crime.
I can not understand why the editors of B92 have chosen to categorize this article and the ensuing comments as "politics".
If the media and editors in ex-YU entities continue to fail to apply moral values to recognize crime and label it appropriately, then we probably have much farther to go to reach a just society.
As readers and commentators, our moral responsibility is to challenge this serious error in editorial judgement with B92.

B92 editors, join the your diverse moral readers and commentators: please label a crime as a crime.

In the year 2014, 15th years after these tragic killings, B92 has taken a blatantly obvious crime topic and placed it in their "politics" section. An excellent example of extreme post-Orwellian double speak. It appears that the current editors at B92 are still mimicking ex-YU media predecessors and invoking warped morality in the classification of obvious crimes. I fear for the future, and wouldn't be surprised that in 2015 on the 16 anniversary, we may find reference to this tragedy in the sport or entertainment sections of B92.

Simplesimon writes: considering it is true that media and communications centers can be classified as legitimate military targets...

However, Danilo is enforcing that the targeting and information about the targeting was a highly coordinated operation by NATO the information was supplied in advance to the RTS.
One of my many questions deals with the specific information that was provided by NATO to the RTS. If the content was false and misleading, such as the bombing would be on April 25th, when in fact it occurred on April 23rd, the consequence and motive of supplying the misleading information would have contributed to these avoidably tragic deaths. The specific information is important in determining culpability of all suspects.

Danilo: please do supply us with this detailed information (ie content and author, date references link etc) that you so convincingly know NATO shared with the RTS.

Dear Some people...,

I note that your argument is based on the grounds that "... did not comply with an order of the then federal government."
Are you suggesting that orders of the then federal should not have been questioned? The fog and propaganda of war provide for a confusing environment. How many individuals failed to comply with orders of the then federal government and why?
The only possible legitimate source of the advance warning that Danilo claims to exist must have originated with NATO.
Provide this source documentation and perhaps we may be able to gain additional clarity on this tragic event and determine who else should be culpable.

Alternatively, we could follow your argument and try to convince readers that the orders of the then federal government should have been followed by all citizens and there would have been no pretext for NATO bombing.

We're flogging a dead horse here... There was a war between NATO and Serbia. Whether NATO attacked Serbia legally or not is immaterial; the question here is the conduct during the war, not the war itself.

During a war, even though regrettable, people are killed. That's why political leaders should try to avoid the war. So the question is whether the combatants in the war tried to limit as much as they could civilian casualties or they deliberately targeted civilians or civilian targets without any proportional military gain.

NATO's actions during the war, and the RTS bombing specifically, where reviewed by the UN in 2000 and the conclusion was not to commence a criminal investigation related to the bombing of the Serbian TV and Radio Station. End of the story... especially since the most patriotic Serbs always ask for the UN to review the actions against Serbs.