Scotland's independence would be "cataclysmic"

"The loudest cheers for the break-up of Britain would be from our adversaries and from our enemies. For the second military power in the west to shatter this year would be cataclysmic in geo-political terms," said he.

Another completely idiotic allegation by former Nato warmonger Robertson.Another attempt to create a fantasy enemy to rail against to a supine media audience.How many Scots approved the Nato bombing of Yugoslavia? How many Scots approved Nato's bombing of Afganistan and Libya?As to world status Robertson is oblivious to reality.Apart from warmongering and being cheer leaders in the destruction of sovereign nations, this former colonial power still sports a royal family who does eff all except keep the class system alive and kicking, an economy buoyed up by overpriced housing and corrupt banking practices, a run down military, a struggling and disappearing manufacturing base and a social system where disabled people are thrown out of their houses or families uprooted and moved out of their home towns.

The involvement of Robertson in the Scottish Independence debate shows the No campaign is panicking and using the establishment and every tool of Government to "monster" against the pro independence lobby.Furthermore,it gives an insight perhaps of why the ruling elites are so vehement in their opposition to Scottish self-determination.

Lenard you are talking utter rubbish. A democratic vote has been given to the Scottish people, it is there right. Most English people are not that bothered about it to be honest. We will still trade with Scotland, go on holiday there and vice versa. As far as oil goes there is not much left and we have the gas fields. But trade between the UK and Scotland will continue. Ok there are issues on currency , defence, health care etc but all these will be sorted out peacefully.

Man, the West seems to be crumbling more and more by the day. I've never seen anything like it. Sort of reminds me of Yugoslavia before $#!T hit the fan. All the while the countries of the East seem to be gaining more power and influence. What can I say, Karma is a B!+ch... Lol. Then 20 years should be interesting.

Can't help but notice how the Scottish have not been all removed from their jobs, there is no British army and police on the streets of Scotland arresting and beating up almost everybody, schools and universities and hospitals are functioning, there is no BS propaganda, like Scotland is the srce Britain, Scotland is the Jerusalem of the British.
(Reader, 8 April 2014 13:44)
--
Well, you only have to look east a bit and compare it to Northern Ireland. Many Irish were shot, killed and beaten up. Many crimes were committed and covered up but only recently admitted. There is recent unrest, so you can praise Britian for allowing Scotland to have a referendum but please spare us the BS.

For anyone following, the scare campaigns regarding independence have started, much like this article. BTW, the people of Republika Srpska would also like a referendum and many other regions of the world too. Looks like the world is heading that way as the "Kosovahh"* precedent is in full swing now.

Bah !.

It is the Pressurie of the West against Russia in the case of Ukrain,
that will threathen the stability of the world and create a cataclysm.

Arn.Sweden.

Can't help but notice how the Scottish have not been all removed from their jobs, there is no British army and police on the streets of Scotland arresting and beating up almost everybody, schools and universities and hospitals are functioning, there is no BS propaganda, like Scotland is the srce Britain, Scotland is the Jerusalem of the British.

they have given them a vote! how weird are you?
(Nikolle, 8 April 2014 15:26)

No they didn't. All the political parties in UK have been vehemently opposed to Scottish independence.They often called upon the Treaty of Union and subsequent Acts of Union of 1707 to support their position.On the other hand the Scottish nationalists based their position on International Law.The basic principle in international law is that the seceding country (in this case Scotland) decides whether it wants to become independent and not the UK government.

i don't think. the Brits, if anything, are showing the world how to deal with self determination, let the people who live said area decide for themselves. Scotland, still leans to the West and not to the East. if only others were as sophisticated as the Brits when it comes to self-determination, perhaps a lot of wars would have been avoided. its because certain heavenly groups lack the common sense of the British that we have to resort to unilateralism

From Ian: "One thing is for certain, in the unlikely situation of Scotland voting yes, the UK will not declare war & start ethnically cleansing Scots!"

Ian, your lack of poerspective is very telling. Why was there violence in Kosovo? The Serb population there has been reduced over the last several decades through intimidation, property vandalization and murder. This continues to this day. Why would the Serbs there want to live in a hostile environment where the goal of the Albanians is to drive them out? Why don't you point out the peaceful secessions of Montenegro & Macedonia. Both have sizeable Serb populations, yet they weren't threatened. Therefore, a peaceful separation. Your selective comparisons point to your anti-Serb bias, yet again.

Run along now. I hear your mother calling. It's spaghetti day at your house, Ian. Your favorite. Be sure to brush your teeth, wash your face and say your prayers before going to bed. Tomorrow you can play with the big boys again. Night, night.

Lol English worried that Scotland will take the 24 billion barels of oil in Scotish teratorial waters. That England misused for decades and nothing to show for it. Well except the Queen got refurbisht palaces and the lords their motts cleaned and manors fixed. English biggest welfare bums aka pretensious royalty living off the doles. All things must come to a end its not the middel ages when England throtled its neighbours and stole from them and starved them. It reminds me of ex Yugo I hope the sore English dont follow that criminal path.

"Furthermore,it gives an insight perhaps of why the ruling elites are so vehement in their opposition to Scottish self-determination."

in what way are they vehemently opposed? they have given them a vote! how weird are you?

i don't think. the Brits, if anything, are showing the world how to deal with self determination, let the people who live said area decide for themselves. Scotland, still leans to the West and not to the East. if only others were as sophisticated as the Brits when it comes to self-determination, perhaps a lot of wars would have been avoided. its because certain heavenly groups lack the common sense of the British that we have to resort to unilateralism
(Nikolle, 8 April 2014 10:21)
==============================

Hahahahahaha, thanks for the laugh.
Read up on English history.

"Read up on English history."

what for? we're not talking about what happened before, we're talking about what is happening now
(Nikolle, 9 April 2014 10:50)
=======================
Then why did you bring up the example of the Brits in the first place?
They certainly cannot teach by ANY example of their own.

Of course pro-Union parties are going to campaign in favour of keeing the Union together; however they aren't saying that Scottish independence would be "illegal" as you have suggested/ implied. Also, internal factions within the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats are campaigning in favour of Scottish Independence.
(Ian, UK, 9 April 2014 00:32)

I didn't imply that Scottish Independence will be illegal because of Westminster opposition.What I meant is the UK government was forced to agree to the referendum because of international factors(the UK government is a signatory to the UN charter for self-determination and any refusal to agree to a referendum could be challenged in international courts).

BTW You'll be pleasantly surprised to hear that I am not of the opinion that Scotts will opt for independence.There is a lot of fear-mongering and threats(from business and political elites) on the future of the Scottish population and I think in the end they will opt for the easy option to continue with the Union.

Nikolle

The British political establishment until 1989 wasn't even prepared to grant devolution to Scotland let alone independence.But the geopolitical changes in Europe-collapse of the Soviet Union,the support of secession of its member states,the UN charter to self determination and UN declaration of human rights-forced the UK establishment to change its position and grant devolution to Scotland.Subsequently ,the referendum for independence was granted but this is still opposed by the political elite in its totality.When one reads the British press one always comes across such stories as the world will fall apart and descend into a new Dark Ages with Scottish independence.There is also additional pressure from large corporations threatening to leave Scotland if she becomes independent.Even the EU is saying that Scotland will have to re-apply for membership if she splits from UK.

No they didn't what? Give them a vote? They did! They gave them a referendum, due to take place this year.
(Nikolle, 9 April 2014 10:09)

They agreed to a referendum under duress.The position of UK governments,at least since 2007,have always been more devolution but no independence.

Its called the domino effect enjoy its end as much as you enjoyed its start!

of course they can Peggy, they're not going to Scottish houses and killing them are they? nor are they reverting to outlandish conspiracies about how the referendum for Scotland to break away is the work of outside forces.
==========================
You're right, not now but you were referring to the past in your original post and I responded.
Changing goalposts?

They want everything else to remain the same, whereas Westminster is saying, "if you want independence, you SHALL have full independence". We aren't prepared to heavily subsidise, parent and hold the hand of an independent Scotland like we do with Scotland within the Union.
(Ian, UK, 10 April 2014 10:58)

But that's precisely what Leonidas and his/her Greek friends love... Be independent while somebody else pays the bills :)

Lenard you are talking utter rubbish. A democratic vote has been given to the Scottish people, it is there right. Most English people are not that bothered about it to be honest. We will still trade with Scotland, go on holiday there and vice versa. As far as oil goes there is not much left and we have the gas fields. But trade between the UK and Scotland will continue. Ok there are issues on currency , defence, health care etc but all these will be sorted out peacefully.
(dave b, 8 April 2014 12:27) That is good Dave. Even gave them a democratic vote generous you Englanders. I get the feeling from the top users of Englander society it was a bad idea. Who will pay for their exgaverent life styles as England became a poor social welfare society. You know what they say old habits die hard.

Man, the West seems to be crumbling more and more by the day. I've never seen anything like it. Sort of reminds me of Yugoslavia before $#!T hit the fan. All the while the countries of the East seem to be gaining more power and influence. What can I say, Karma is a B!+ch... Lol. Then 20 years should be interesting.
(Observer, 8 April 2014 14:37)

Very interesting, indeed, especially for Kosovo... If Scotland chooses independence that means another recognition for Kosovo :)

i am genuinely curious, deliberately underestimated by whom?
(Nikolle, 11 April 2014 12:59

By British politicians of course.Politicians avoid talking about the contribution North Sea ioil has made to UK treasury coffers or the balance of payments.What has Britain got to show for this bonanza? Not much. A multicultural paradise, that's what. Norway has used its North Sea revenues to amass a sovereign wealth fund that will help the country adjust to an ageing population. Britain used its oil and gas receipts to pay for mass unemployment,illegal foreign wars, tax cuts for the richand current government spending.Yet national debt has increased to £ 1.3 trillion and unfunded liabilities to £ 5 trillion.

Robertson was against devolution, nevermind independence. This isn't news, lots of high profile Scots have come out arguing in favour of both sides of the independence argument. The only thing thing counts, is what the majority of Scots think on 18 September 2014.

I'm not a fan of opinion polls when the survey population is only around a 1,000 people; however, every single opinion poll to date has been in favour of the No vote except one which was conducted by the SNP and even then the Yes vote only had a 1% lead.

As to the usual idiots on here who rave about the artificial manufactured "Kosovo precedent" myth which Putin authored; I'm yet to come across a single Scot/ Scottish politician who is in favour of independence, to draw parallels between Scotland & Kosovo. Do these "Kosovo Precedent" fans seriously believe that Glaswegians & Highlanders who are in favour of Scottish independence are saying to one another "if Kosovo can have independence, then so can Scotland"? HAHA! I actually find it amusing that idiots on here are insinuating that this independence referendum wouldn't be happening if it weren't for Kosovo HAHA!. This just goes to show how deluded & ignorant some people are.

I'm glad that Scotland is getting the chance to decide it's future status, the will of the people must be respected. One thing is for certain, in the unlikely situation of Scotland voting yes, the UK will not declare war & start ethnically cleansing Scots!

Serbia needs to do the right thing, and that is - recognize Scotland immediately. The sooner that pathetic kingdom disintegrates, the better. England than can become a true multicultural society, they so espouse globally, and elect an Urdu or Hindi speaking Prime Minister, to reflect the diversity of England in reality today, while replacing the Church of England with the Mosque of England.

Ian, UK, 10 April 2014 10:58)

Having taken their land,oil and culture you left Scotland with lots of powers? Like what? The power to collect their own garbage? Back to the bueprint for independence I personally wouldn't bother with it.Staying within Nato,EU,keeping the same currency,keeping the monarchy as head of state,he's got all that why bother?

(Leonidas, 10 April 2014 18:19)

You're deluded Leonidas and you're very ignorant when it comes to Scotland and the UK.

The fact that you have no idea what powers Scotland had before Devolution says a lot about your 'expertise' on the subject.

Who's land has been 'taken'? Who's oil has been 'taken'? Who's 'culture' has been taken? Also, who has 'taken' it?

Scotland and England were united into a single Kingdom in 1707 having shared the same Monarchy for over 100 years (a Scottish Monarchy I should point out).

England doesn't own Scotland. Many North Sea oil fields are in 'English waters' as well as 'Scottish waters'. And many oil fields in 'Scottish waters' are actually in Shetland's and Orkney's waters. I could be stupid like you and say that Scotland has taken Shetland's and Orkney's land, oil and culture.

North Sea oil has made Scotland rich within the UK. Aberdeen is a very prosperous city, it has the second highest employment rate in the UK. Yes, Salmond wants the tax money from North Se Oil instead of it going to Westminster, but this money works it's way back to Scotland anyway as Westminster heavily subsidises many services in Scotland, from Education to Health Care ect.

Scottish culture has thrived under the UK. The UK has given Scotland the haggis, music, literature, art, football and Rugby ect. The British Military has made the Kilt and Bagpipe famous world wide.

Ian

It's pretty obvious from your ignorant comment that you haven't got a clue of what you're talking about.I don't live in Scotland and I don't pretend to be an expert on Scottish affairs but I would suggest to anyone who does that the desperate attempts by the majority of informed English-like yourself- to hold onto the Union are indicative of the way the land lies economically. Discounting the UKIP, it does exactly what it says on the tin; the English,and in particular the politicians and business want to retain the Union.They are not doing that for All Time Sake; It is because Scotland is economically more active than the UK average, North Sea Oil income is being deliberately underestimated. Scottish tax revenues are also being under estimated.I am not going to use Salmonds statements about North Sea oil ownership,the BBC's is more appealing to you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070

According the UK's Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR)the UK has benefited to the tune of £300 billion since oil production started in North Sea.Imagine what a small country like Scotland could've done with these sums of money in terms of development,yet deluded people like yourself announce pompously that the UK government has been supporting Scotland economically.

Scotland could really benefit by changing the remit of independence by opting out of Nato,EU and monarchy.But as I've said previously independence is not going to happen.

You only have to go as recently as the Falkland war for another example.
(Peggy, 11 April 2014 00:16)

Yep, that's another example of self-determination... So what was your point?

Lenard no more please you are like the proverbial bad penny, you just keep coming back. Spare us your wisdom we can survive without it.....believe me!!

"Read up on English history."

what for? we're not talking about what happened before, we're talking about what is happening now

"Well, you only have to look east a bit and compare it to Northern Ireland."

Even if I look at Northern Ireland, I do not see ethnic based persecution, mass firings, denying hospitals and schools to a whole group of your citizens based on ethnicity. There is simlpy no comparison. Sure, some Irish were killed and British and that is too bad but it pales compared to what happened in Srebrenica and Kosovo and even to the Serbs themselves (talk about murdered journalists and opposition members is still alive) in the 90s.

By the way Zoran, I am curoius, you said some time ago you would go to help the extremists in Nothern Kosovo when they were putting up barricades. How did that one go? Because, it seems to me like that course of action failed. :)

Such a lot of rubbish on this posting! I am born and bred in Scotland and so well placed to comment. History is important - Scotland and England were united under an existing Scottish monarch. There was no invasion and Scots have never felt an English colony. We have always retained our own laws, our own money and our own education system – even before devolution. There has been no struggle for a referendum. This came about as a result of democratic voting in the Scottish parliamentary elections (not Westminster). People feel Scottish and British or English and British. This is not a Scotland versus England matter as some simpletons suggest. This is about whether or not Scots want to stay united within Britain or not.
During this referendum campaign, both sides are suggesting the benefits or the disasters that may occur as a result of independence. Voicing such arguments for and against (even with some exaggeration) is normal in any election campaign. Scots are clever enough to see through this and make up their own mind. To date, every single opinion poll shows that a majority of Scots wish to remain part of the UK.
In many ways, it doesn’t matter what the outcome of the referendum will be. The people of Scotland will get to choose their destiny for themselves in a peaceful and informed manner. I only wish that those who felt Serbian and Yugoslav or Croatian and Yugoslav, etc, had the same choice two decades ago.
Peace and respect to all.

GRUK

dear me, i've noticed with you, you always go into social commentary. you give me the awful impression of believing what that moron American Alex Jones says. tell me, the Brits have lied about the North Sea oil revenue for what purpose exactly? also, where is your supporting evidence that they have deliberately done so?

No they didn't. All the political parties in UK have been vehemently opposed to Scottish independence.They often called upon the Treaty of Union and subsequent Acts of Union of 1707 to support their position.On the other hand the Scottish nationalists based their position on International Law.The basic principle in international law is that the seceding country (in this case Scotland) decides whether it wants to become independent and not the UK government.
(Leonidas, 8 April 2014 18:00)

And Westister has vowed to respect the will of the Scottish electorate and recognise the independence of Scotland in the event of a yes vote, instead of resulting to war and ethnic cleansing. Westminister fully accepts that it is for Scotland alone to decide whether it stays in the Union or not. We adhere to the right of Self Determination.

Of course pro-Union parties are going to campaign in favour of keeing the Union together; however they aren't saying that Scottish independence would be "illegal" as you have suggested/ implied. Also, internal factions within the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats are campaigning in favour of Scottish Independence.

"No they didn't."

No they didn't what? Give them a vote? They did! They gave them a referendum, due to take place this year.

@Leonidas

what does what happened before 1989 have to do with anything? we're talking about what is happening NOW, not before. the UK gov. NOW, have offered the Scottish people the opportunity to decide for themselves. for all the geopolitical changes that you mention, i do not see the Spanish giving the Catalans that opportunity. I do not see the Russians giving the Chechens that opportunity. I do not see the Turks giving Kurds that opportunity. The Birts have shown more maturity than all by not only paying lip service to the idea of self-determination, they are applying the principle in practice. what more do you want of them? that they declare a national Scotland day every week?

(Leonidas, 9 April 2014 20:57)

Bollocks! Scotland has always had it's own powers through Scottish Law per the 1707 Acts of Union. Also a referendum in 1979 on giving Scotland devolution per the 1978 Scotland Act failed short of the required majority per the '40% rule'. It was an unfair rule, but a Scot came up with it.

Of course an independent Scotland will have to re-apply for EU membership, as well as membership in every other Organisation Scotland wants to be a member of. Independence = New Country on the world stage.

The referendum will fail for Salmond & the SNP because they are not offering real independence for Scotland. They're offering cherry-picked semi-independence. Salmond /SNP want all the benefits and security of Scotland being in the UK, whilst at the same time being "independent". The only "independence" Salmond/ SNP want, is a line on a world map at the Anglo-Scottish border. They want everything else to remain the same, whereas Westminster is saying, "if you want independence, you SHALL have full independence". We aren't prepared to heavily subsidise, parent and hold the hand of an independent Scotland like we do with Scotland within the Union. Salmond knows this and he secretly doesn't want a Yes vote cos it'll mean his SNP will no longer have a purpose to exist.

@(Peggy

where exactly in my post did I refer to the past?
(Nikolle, 10 April 2014 10:33)
==

. "if only others were as sophisticated as the Brits when it comes to self-determinatio"
===========================================

When you describe people the way you just did you invite others to examine ways if which the British respond to someone trying to break away from them and that includes previous attempts too. One current attempt means nothing. You can't conclude anything from one example.
You only have to go as recently as the Falkland war for another example.

(Nikolle, 11 April 2014 14:54)

Now I know why you fail to understand the main thrust of my comments,is not because you're not reading books but because you're listening to Alex Jones.Anyone else I should use as a reference?

of course they can Peggy, they're not going to Scottish houses and killing them are they? nor are they reverting to outlandish conspiracies about how the referendum for Scotland to break away is the work of outside forces.
@Leonidas, the ruling classes have given the Scottish people a vote NOW. OK? seems pretty straight forward. to be vehemently opposed is to deny them that opportunity. there's no pleasing you by the looks of things

Not nice is it when some from other side of Europe with no connection to the subject, country or area tries to preach and order you around and tell you are wrong... Byway ICJ1 no one has a better understanding of democracy then the Greeks after all the first ones to put in practice shame the Euro has screwed them over...

"... deliberately underestimated."

i am genuinely curious, deliberately underestimated by whom?

Why was there violence in Kosovo? The Serb population there has been reduced over the last several decades through intimidation, property vandalization and murder.
(njegos, 9 April 2014 15:15)

And above all Kosovo being much less developed than Serbia (I think all Serb patriots agree about that). Given the opportunity, why would somebody live in a less-developed area (Kosovo) when they can live in a more developed one (Serbia). I understand that is not patriotic, but, hey, people, unfortunately, think first about their own well-being and then about patriotic causes. It's easy to preach patriotism in forums to others from a comfortable armchair in the evil West :)

@Leonidas, the ruling classes have given the Scottish people a vote NOW. OK? seems pretty straight forward. to be vehemently opposed is to deny them that opportunity. there's no pleasing you by the looks of things
(Nikolle, 9 April 2014 16:13)

That's the point of our dear friend Leonidas... The UK government is evil. Regardless of good or bad things the UK government does, it is still evil. Nothing that the UK government does will ever satisfy our friend Leonidas, because the UK government is evil. Did I mention that the UK government is evil :)

@(Peggy

where exactly in my post did I refer to the past?

Twice I've replied to you Leonidas, twice my comment hasn't been published, though there's nothing derogatory in it. Nothing i can do now

You only have to go as recently as the Falkland war for another example.
(Peggy, 11 April 2014 00:16)

.......an example of what exactly?

Leonidas, don’t overstate the demand for independence. You say that “the English, and in particular the politicians and business want to retain the Union”. You make no mention that the majority of Scots too wish to retain the union. This fact might not suit your agenda, so your omission has the effect of revealing your bias.
(GRUK, 13 April 2014 10:44)

I stand by my comment.The whole British political establishment-SNP are working in tandem for the no campaign.How can the Scottish people make their minds up objectively when big Scottish employers like(RBS,Standard Life,Scottish Widows)are threatening to leave Scotland if they vote Yes?Do you think it's acceptable to blackmail people risking their livelihood for independence? I don't think so.

Too many small countries.

They should not have the same status as big countries.

Many cities are bigger than these little countries.

Leonidas, don’t overstate the demand for independence. You say that “the English, and in particular the politicians and business want to retain the Union”. You make no mention that the majority of Scots too wish to retain the union. This fact might not suit your agenda, so your omission has the effect of revealing your bias.

Peggy, from what I understand you are saying, you’re not correct with regards to Falklands. If they were given an opportunity to vote to retain its links with UK, then that ghastly war may have been averted. They didn’t get a choice before they were invaded – and by a right wing military dictatorship. Be sensible, there’s no lesson on democracy and self-determination from that example.

Like William Wallace once said FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM!!!!!!

Lol English worried that Scotland will take the 24 billion barels of oil in Scotish teratorial waters. That England misused for decades and nothing to show for it. Well except the Queen got refurbisht palaces and the lords their motts cleaned and manors fixed. English biggest welfare bums aka pretensious royalty living off the doles. All things must come to a end its not the middel ages when England throtled its neighbours and stole from them and starved them. It reminds me of ex Yugo I hope the sore English dont follow that criminal path.

i don't think. the Brits, if anything, are showing the world how to deal with self determination, let the people who live said area decide for themselves. Scotland, still leans to the West and not to the East. if only others were as sophisticated as the Brits when it comes to self-determination, perhaps a lot of wars would have been avoided. its because certain heavenly groups lack the common sense of the British that we have to resort to unilateralism

Lenard you are talking utter rubbish. A democratic vote has been given to the Scottish people, it is there right. Most English people are not that bothered about it to be honest. We will still trade with Scotland, go on holiday there and vice versa. As far as oil goes there is not much left and we have the gas fields. But trade between the UK and Scotland will continue. Ok there are issues on currency , defence, health care etc but all these will be sorted out peacefully.
(dave b, 8 April 2014 12:27) That is good Dave. Even gave them a democratic vote generous you Englanders. I get the feeling from the top users of Englander society it was a bad idea. Who will pay for their exgaverent life styles as England became a poor social welfare society. You know what they say old habits die hard.

Can't help but notice how the Scottish have not been all removed from their jobs, there is no British army and police on the streets of Scotland arresting and beating up almost everybody, schools and universities and hospitals are functioning, there is no BS propaganda, like Scotland is the srce Britain, Scotland is the Jerusalem of the British.

"Furthermore,it gives an insight perhaps of why the ruling elites are so vehement in their opposition to Scottish self-determination."

in what way are they vehemently opposed? they have given them a vote! how weird are you?

Lenard you are talking utter rubbish. A democratic vote has been given to the Scottish people, it is there right. Most English people are not that bothered about it to be honest. We will still trade with Scotland, go on holiday there and vice versa. As far as oil goes there is not much left and we have the gas fields. But trade between the UK and Scotland will continue. Ok there are issues on currency , defence, health care etc but all these will be sorted out peacefully.

Man, the West seems to be crumbling more and more by the day. I've never seen anything like it. Sort of reminds me of Yugoslavia before $#!T hit the fan. All the while the countries of the East seem to be gaining more power and influence. What can I say, Karma is a B!+ch... Lol. Then 20 years should be interesting.

Man, the West seems to be crumbling more and more by the day. I've never seen anything like it. Sort of reminds me of Yugoslavia before $#!T hit the fan. All the while the countries of the East seem to be gaining more power and influence. What can I say, Karma is a B!+ch... Lol. Then 20 years should be interesting.
(Observer, 8 April 2014 14:37)

Very interesting, indeed, especially for Kosovo... If Scotland chooses independence that means another recognition for Kosovo :)

of course they can Peggy, they're not going to Scottish houses and killing them are they? nor are they reverting to outlandish conspiracies about how the referendum for Scotland to break away is the work of outside forces.
@Leonidas, the ruling classes have given the Scottish people a vote NOW. OK? seems pretty straight forward. to be vehemently opposed is to deny them that opportunity. there's no pleasing you by the looks of things

Bah !.

It is the Pressurie of the West against Russia in the case of Ukrain,
that will threathen the stability of the world and create a cataclysm.

Arn.Sweden.

"Well, you only have to look east a bit and compare it to Northern Ireland."

Even if I look at Northern Ireland, I do not see ethnic based persecution, mass firings, denying hospitals and schools to a whole group of your citizens based on ethnicity. There is simlpy no comparison. Sure, some Irish were killed and British and that is too bad but it pales compared to what happened in Srebrenica and Kosovo and even to the Serbs themselves (talk about murdered journalists and opposition members is still alive) in the 90s.

By the way Zoran, I am curoius, you said some time ago you would go to help the extremists in Nothern Kosovo when they were putting up barricades. How did that one go? Because, it seems to me like that course of action failed. :)

Why was there violence in Kosovo? The Serb population there has been reduced over the last several decades through intimidation, property vandalization and murder.
(njegos, 9 April 2014 15:15)

And above all Kosovo being much less developed than Serbia (I think all Serb patriots agree about that). Given the opportunity, why would somebody live in a less-developed area (Kosovo) when they can live in a more developed one (Serbia). I understand that is not patriotic, but, hey, people, unfortunately, think first about their own well-being and then about patriotic causes. It's easy to preach patriotism in forums to others from a comfortable armchair in the evil West :)

@Leonidas, the ruling classes have given the Scottish people a vote NOW. OK? seems pretty straight forward. to be vehemently opposed is to deny them that opportunity. there's no pleasing you by the looks of things
(Nikolle, 9 April 2014 16:13)

That's the point of our dear friend Leonidas... The UK government is evil. Regardless of good or bad things the UK government does, it is still evil. Nothing that the UK government does will ever satisfy our friend Leonidas, because the UK government is evil. Did I mention that the UK government is evil :)

(Leonidas, 9 April 2014 20:57)

Bollocks! Scotland has always had it's own powers through Scottish Law per the 1707 Acts of Union. Also a referendum in 1979 on giving Scotland devolution per the 1978 Scotland Act failed short of the required majority per the '40% rule'. It was an unfair rule, but a Scot came up with it.

Of course an independent Scotland will have to re-apply for EU membership, as well as membership in every other Organisation Scotland wants to be a member of. Independence = New Country on the world stage.

The referendum will fail for Salmond & the SNP because they are not offering real independence for Scotland. They're offering cherry-picked semi-independence. Salmond /SNP want all the benefits and security of Scotland being in the UK, whilst at the same time being "independent". The only "independence" Salmond/ SNP want, is a line on a world map at the Anglo-Scottish border. They want everything else to remain the same, whereas Westminster is saying, "if you want independence, you SHALL have full independence". We aren't prepared to heavily subsidise, parent and hold the hand of an independent Scotland like we do with Scotland within the Union. Salmond knows this and he secretly doesn't want a Yes vote cos it'll mean his SNP will no longer have a purpose to exist.

"The loudest cheers for the break-up of Britain would be from our adversaries and from our enemies. For the second military power in the west to shatter this year would be cataclysmic in geo-political terms," said he.

Another completely idiotic allegation by former Nato warmonger Robertson.Another attempt to create a fantasy enemy to rail against to a supine media audience.How many Scots approved the Nato bombing of Yugoslavia? How many Scots approved Nato's bombing of Afganistan and Libya?As to world status Robertson is oblivious to reality.Apart from warmongering and being cheer leaders in the destruction of sovereign nations, this former colonial power still sports a royal family who does eff all except keep the class system alive and kicking, an economy buoyed up by overpriced housing and corrupt banking practices, a run down military, a struggling and disappearing manufacturing base and a social system where disabled people are thrown out of their houses or families uprooted and moved out of their home towns.

The involvement of Robertson in the Scottish Independence debate shows the No campaign is panicking and using the establishment and every tool of Government to "monster" against the pro independence lobby.Furthermore,it gives an insight perhaps of why the ruling elites are so vehement in their opposition to Scottish self-determination.

Robertson was against devolution, nevermind independence. This isn't news, lots of high profile Scots have come out arguing in favour of both sides of the independence argument. The only thing thing counts, is what the majority of Scots think on 18 September 2014.

I'm not a fan of opinion polls when the survey population is only around a 1,000 people; however, every single opinion poll to date has been in favour of the No vote except one which was conducted by the SNP and even then the Yes vote only had a 1% lead.

As to the usual idiots on here who rave about the artificial manufactured "Kosovo precedent" myth which Putin authored; I'm yet to come across a single Scot/ Scottish politician who is in favour of independence, to draw parallels between Scotland & Kosovo. Do these "Kosovo Precedent" fans seriously believe that Glaswegians & Highlanders who are in favour of Scottish independence are saying to one another "if Kosovo can have independence, then so can Scotland"? HAHA! I actually find it amusing that idiots on here are insinuating that this independence referendum wouldn't be happening if it weren't for Kosovo HAHA!. This just goes to show how deluded & ignorant some people are.

I'm glad that Scotland is getting the chance to decide it's future status, the will of the people must be respected. One thing is for certain, in the unlikely situation of Scotland voting yes, the UK will not declare war & start ethnically cleansing Scots!

"No they didn't."

No they didn't what? Give them a vote? They did! They gave them a referendum, due to take place this year.

"Read up on English history."

what for? we're not talking about what happened before, we're talking about what is happening now

No they didn't. All the political parties in UK have been vehemently opposed to Scottish independence.They often called upon the Treaty of Union and subsequent Acts of Union of 1707 to support their position.On the other hand the Scottish nationalists based their position on International Law.The basic principle in international law is that the seceding country (in this case Scotland) decides whether it wants to become independent and not the UK government.
(Leonidas, 8 April 2014 18:00)

And Westister has vowed to respect the will of the Scottish electorate and recognise the independence of Scotland in the event of a yes vote, instead of resulting to war and ethnic cleansing. Westminister fully accepts that it is for Scotland alone to decide whether it stays in the Union or not. We adhere to the right of Self Determination.

Of course pro-Union parties are going to campaign in favour of keeing the Union together; however they aren't saying that Scottish independence would be "illegal" as you have suggested/ implied. Also, internal factions within the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats are campaigning in favour of Scottish Independence.

Too many small countries.

They should not have the same status as big countries.

Many cities are bigger than these little countries.

i don't think. the Brits, if anything, are showing the world how to deal with self determination, let the people who live said area decide for themselves. Scotland, still leans to the West and not to the East. if only others were as sophisticated as the Brits when it comes to self-determination, perhaps a lot of wars would have been avoided. its because certain heavenly groups lack the common sense of the British that we have to resort to unilateralism
(Nikolle, 8 April 2014 10:21)
==============================

Hahahahahaha, thanks for the laugh.
Read up on English history.

From Ian: "One thing is for certain, in the unlikely situation of Scotland voting yes, the UK will not declare war & start ethnically cleansing Scots!"

Ian, your lack of poerspective is very telling. Why was there violence in Kosovo? The Serb population there has been reduced over the last several decades through intimidation, property vandalization and murder. This continues to this day. Why would the Serbs there want to live in a hostile environment where the goal of the Albanians is to drive them out? Why don't you point out the peaceful secessions of Montenegro & Macedonia. Both have sizeable Serb populations, yet they weren't threatened. Therefore, a peaceful separation. Your selective comparisons point to your anti-Serb bias, yet again.

Run along now. I hear your mother calling. It's spaghetti day at your house, Ian. Your favorite. Be sure to brush your teeth, wash your face and say your prayers before going to bed. Tomorrow you can play with the big boys again. Night, night.

@Leonidas

what does what happened before 1989 have to do with anything? we're talking about what is happening NOW, not before. the UK gov. NOW, have offered the Scottish people the opportunity to decide for themselves. for all the geopolitical changes that you mention, i do not see the Spanish giving the Catalans that opportunity. I do not see the Russians giving the Chechens that opportunity. I do not see the Turks giving Kurds that opportunity. The Birts have shown more maturity than all by not only paying lip service to the idea of self-determination, they are applying the principle in practice. what more do you want of them? that they declare a national Scotland day every week?

@(Peggy

where exactly in my post did I refer to the past?

Can't help but notice how the Scottish have not been all removed from their jobs, there is no British army and police on the streets of Scotland arresting and beating up almost everybody, schools and universities and hospitals are functioning, there is no BS propaganda, like Scotland is the srce Britain, Scotland is the Jerusalem of the British.
(Reader, 8 April 2014 13:44)
--
Well, you only have to look east a bit and compare it to Northern Ireland. Many Irish were shot, killed and beaten up. Many crimes were committed and covered up but only recently admitted. There is recent unrest, so you can praise Britian for allowing Scotland to have a referendum but please spare us the BS.

For anyone following, the scare campaigns regarding independence have started, much like this article. BTW, the people of Republika Srpska would also like a referendum and many other regions of the world too. Looks like the world is heading that way as the "Kosovahh"* precedent is in full swing now.

Of course pro-Union parties are going to campaign in favour of keeing the Union together; however they aren't saying that Scottish independence would be "illegal" as you have suggested/ implied. Also, internal factions within the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats are campaigning in favour of Scottish Independence.
(Ian, UK, 9 April 2014 00:32)

I didn't imply that Scottish Independence will be illegal because of Westminster opposition.What I meant is the UK government was forced to agree to the referendum because of international factors(the UK government is a signatory to the UN charter for self-determination and any refusal to agree to a referendum could be challenged in international courts).

BTW You'll be pleasantly surprised to hear that I am not of the opinion that Scotts will opt for independence.There is a lot of fear-mongering and threats(from business and political elites) on the future of the Scottish population and I think in the end they will opt for the easy option to continue with the Union.

No they didn't what? Give them a vote? They did! They gave them a referendum, due to take place this year.
(Nikolle, 9 April 2014 10:09)

They agreed to a referendum under duress.The position of UK governments,at least since 2007,have always been more devolution but no independence.

"Read up on English history."

what for? we're not talking about what happened before, we're talking about what is happening now
(Nikolle, 9 April 2014 10:50)
=======================
Then why did you bring up the example of the Brits in the first place?
They certainly cannot teach by ANY example of their own.

Such a lot of rubbish on this posting! I am born and bred in Scotland and so well placed to comment. History is important - Scotland and England were united under an existing Scottish monarch. There was no invasion and Scots have never felt an English colony. We have always retained our own laws, our own money and our own education system – even before devolution. There has been no struggle for a referendum. This came about as a result of democratic voting in the Scottish parliamentary elections (not Westminster). People feel Scottish and British or English and British. This is not a Scotland versus England matter as some simpletons suggest. This is about whether or not Scots want to stay united within Britain or not.
During this referendum campaign, both sides are suggesting the benefits or the disasters that may occur as a result of independence. Voicing such arguments for and against (even with some exaggeration) is normal in any election campaign. Scots are clever enough to see through this and make up their own mind. To date, every single opinion poll shows that a majority of Scots wish to remain part of the UK.
In many ways, it doesn’t matter what the outcome of the referendum will be. The people of Scotland will get to choose their destiny for themselves in a peaceful and informed manner. I only wish that those who felt Serbian and Yugoslav or Croatian and Yugoslav, etc, had the same choice two decades ago.
Peace and respect to all.

GRUK

They want everything else to remain the same, whereas Westminster is saying, "if you want independence, you SHALL have full independence". We aren't prepared to heavily subsidise, parent and hold the hand of an independent Scotland like we do with Scotland within the Union.
(Ian, UK, 10 April 2014 10:58)

But that's precisely what Leonidas and his/her Greek friends love... Be independent while somebody else pays the bills :)

i am genuinely curious, deliberately underestimated by whom?
(Nikolle, 11 April 2014 12:59

By British politicians of course.Politicians avoid talking about the contribution North Sea ioil has made to UK treasury coffers or the balance of payments.What has Britain got to show for this bonanza? Not much. A multicultural paradise, that's what. Norway has used its North Sea revenues to amass a sovereign wealth fund that will help the country adjust to an ageing population. Britain used its oil and gas receipts to pay for mass unemployment,illegal foreign wars, tax cuts for the richand current government spending.Yet national debt has increased to £ 1.3 trillion and unfunded liabilities to £ 5 trillion.

they have given them a vote! how weird are you?
(Nikolle, 8 April 2014 15:26)

No they didn't. All the political parties in UK have been vehemently opposed to Scottish independence.They often called upon the Treaty of Union and subsequent Acts of Union of 1707 to support their position.On the other hand the Scottish nationalists based their position on International Law.The basic principle in international law is that the seceding country (in this case Scotland) decides whether it wants to become independent and not the UK government.

Its called the domino effect enjoy its end as much as you enjoyed its start!

(Leonidas, 10 April 2014 18:19)

You're deluded Leonidas and you're very ignorant when it comes to Scotland and the UK.

The fact that you have no idea what powers Scotland had before Devolution says a lot about your 'expertise' on the subject.

Who's land has been 'taken'? Who's oil has been 'taken'? Who's 'culture' has been taken? Also, who has 'taken' it?

Scotland and England were united into a single Kingdom in 1707 having shared the same Monarchy for over 100 years (a Scottish Monarchy I should point out).

England doesn't own Scotland. Many North Sea oil fields are in 'English waters' as well as 'Scottish waters'. And many oil fields in 'Scottish waters' are actually in Shetland's and Orkney's waters. I could be stupid like you and say that Scotland has taken Shetland's and Orkney's land, oil and culture.

North Sea oil has made Scotland rich within the UK. Aberdeen is a very prosperous city, it has the second highest employment rate in the UK. Yes, Salmond wants the tax money from North Se Oil instead of it going to Westminster, but this money works it's way back to Scotland anyway as Westminster heavily subsidises many services in Scotland, from Education to Health Care ect.

Scottish culture has thrived under the UK. The UK has given Scotland the haggis, music, literature, art, football and Rugby ect. The British Military has made the Kilt and Bagpipe famous world wide.

Ian

It's pretty obvious from your ignorant comment that you haven't got a clue of what you're talking about.I don't live in Scotland and I don't pretend to be an expert on Scottish affairs but I would suggest to anyone who does that the desperate attempts by the majority of informed English-like yourself- to hold onto the Union are indicative of the way the land lies economically. Discounting the UKIP, it does exactly what it says on the tin; the English,and in particular the politicians and business want to retain the Union.They are not doing that for All Time Sake; It is because Scotland is economically more active than the UK average, North Sea Oil income is being deliberately underestimated. Scottish tax revenues are also being under estimated.I am not going to use Salmonds statements about North Sea oil ownership,the BBC's is more appealing to you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070

According the UK's Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR)the UK has benefited to the tune of £300 billion since oil production started in North Sea.Imagine what a small country like Scotland could've done with these sums of money in terms of development,yet deluded people like yourself announce pompously that the UK government has been supporting Scotland economically.

Scotland could really benefit by changing the remit of independence by opting out of Nato,EU and monarchy.But as I've said previously independence is not going to happen.

dear me, i've noticed with you, you always go into social commentary. you give me the awful impression of believing what that moron American Alex Jones says. tell me, the Brits have lied about the North Sea oil revenue for what purpose exactly? also, where is your supporting evidence that they have deliberately done so?

(Nikolle, 11 April 2014 14:54)

Now I know why you fail to understand the main thrust of my comments,is not because you're not reading books but because you're listening to Alex Jones.Anyone else I should use as a reference?

Lenard no more please you are like the proverbial bad penny, you just keep coming back. Spare us your wisdom we can survive without it.....believe me!!

Serbia needs to do the right thing, and that is - recognize Scotland immediately. The sooner that pathetic kingdom disintegrates, the better. England than can become a true multicultural society, they so espouse globally, and elect an Urdu or Hindi speaking Prime Minister, to reflect the diversity of England in reality today, while replacing the Church of England with the Mosque of England.

of course they can Peggy, they're not going to Scottish houses and killing them are they? nor are they reverting to outlandish conspiracies about how the referendum for Scotland to break away is the work of outside forces.
==========================
You're right, not now but you were referring to the past in your original post and I responded.
Changing goalposts?

@(Peggy

where exactly in my post did I refer to the past?
(Nikolle, 10 April 2014 10:33)
==

. "if only others were as sophisticated as the Brits when it comes to self-determinatio"
===========================================

When you describe people the way you just did you invite others to examine ways if which the British respond to someone trying to break away from them and that includes previous attempts too. One current attempt means nothing. You can't conclude anything from one example.
You only have to go as recently as the Falkland war for another example.

Not nice is it when some from other side of Europe with no connection to the subject, country or area tries to preach and order you around and tell you are wrong... Byway ICJ1 no one has a better understanding of democracy then the Greeks after all the first ones to put in practice shame the Euro has screwed them over...

"... deliberately underestimated."

i am genuinely curious, deliberately underestimated by whom?

You only have to go as recently as the Falkland war for another example.
(Peggy, 11 April 2014 00:16)

Yep, that's another example of self-determination... So what was your point?

Leonidas, don’t overstate the demand for independence. You say that “the English, and in particular the politicians and business want to retain the Union”. You make no mention that the majority of Scots too wish to retain the union. This fact might not suit your agenda, so your omission has the effect of revealing your bias.
(GRUK, 13 April 2014 10:44)

I stand by my comment.The whole British political establishment-SNP are working in tandem for the no campaign.How can the Scottish people make their minds up objectively when big Scottish employers like(RBS,Standard Life,Scottish Widows)are threatening to leave Scotland if they vote Yes?Do you think it's acceptable to blackmail people risking their livelihood for independence? I don't think so.

Nikolle

The British political establishment until 1989 wasn't even prepared to grant devolution to Scotland let alone independence.But the geopolitical changes in Europe-collapse of the Soviet Union,the support of secession of its member states,the UN charter to self determination and UN declaration of human rights-forced the UK establishment to change its position and grant devolution to Scotland.Subsequently ,the referendum for independence was granted but this is still opposed by the political elite in its totality.When one reads the British press one always comes across such stories as the world will fall apart and descend into a new Dark Ages with Scottish independence.There is also additional pressure from large corporations threatening to leave Scotland if she becomes independent.Even the EU is saying that Scotland will have to re-apply for membership if she splits from UK.

Ian, UK, 10 April 2014 10:58)

Having taken their land,oil and culture you left Scotland with lots of powers? Like what? The power to collect their own garbage? Back to the bueprint for independence I personally wouldn't bother with it.Staying within Nato,EU,keeping the same currency,keeping the monarchy as head of state,he's got all that why bother?

Twice I've replied to you Leonidas, twice my comment hasn't been published, though there's nothing derogatory in it. Nothing i can do now

You only have to go as recently as the Falkland war for another example.
(Peggy, 11 April 2014 00:16)

.......an example of what exactly?

Leonidas, don’t overstate the demand for independence. You say that “the English, and in particular the politicians and business want to retain the Union”. You make no mention that the majority of Scots too wish to retain the union. This fact might not suit your agenda, so your omission has the effect of revealing your bias.

Peggy, from what I understand you are saying, you’re not correct with regards to Falklands. If they were given an opportunity to vote to retain its links with UK, then that ghastly war may have been averted. They didn’t get a choice before they were invaded – and by a right wing military dictatorship. Be sensible, there’s no lesson on democracy and self-determination from that example.

Like William Wallace once said FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM!!!!!!