The Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS) will compete in elections with a new state policy crucial for Serbia’s future, party leader Vojislav Koštunica has said.
Luckily, I have good memory and distinctly remember you saying you lived in Serbia. Now its "your grandparents were born there"... so you are a 3rd generation Serb, who loathes Serbian national interest and yet you have a big interest in...Serbia?! Come on man, you are not a Westerner. No one believes you, no matter how much you would like to be.
Of course the situation in Quebec is different from Kosovo, Dragane. Different in the way it was dealt with. Canada certainly could have gone the Kosovo way if they were stupid, and they almost were.
clear up a few point:
I'm not "from" Serbia. My grandparents were born here.
Serbs and Albanians are both indigeonous to Kosovo.
I'm not too worried about how "popular" I am, but ones popularity on the b92.net comments forum are hardly some sort of accurate barometer.
Ari, I was going to respond but you didn't need any help. You thoroughly dismantled Danilo's self hating Serb theories, good work!
Danilo, give it up. Go back to Vancouver, you clearly hate Serbia and where you come from....oh, I forgot, you like to make money on the backs of the people you hate and insult continuously. What a fine moral person you are, I'm sure your parents must be proud...NOT!
You comparing the October crisis to decades of albanian terrorism against indigenous Serbs in Kosovo is not only laughable, it's insulting. Google it, the New York times and several other of your beloved western news sources reported on it, and this was going on well before Milosevic was around. You have no knowledge of history, and not much else for that matter. They say ignorance is bliss, but in your case it doesn't add up, since you're a miserable unpopular person on top of being ignorant.
Cheers!!
FLQ got their start just like the KLA, Ari. The October crisis (kidnappings (and murder) of a UK and Canadian government official and the subsequent imposition of martial law) was part of an ongoing series of attacks. Canada even flirted with the Serbian way of handling things - with an iron fist, before they backed off and did it the more Canadian way. Serbia didn't lose Kosovo in a single war with NATO. Serbia lost Kosovo over 10 years of mismanaging a separtist situation. Separtism has to be on the table of acceptable things to talk about in order to avoid separtism.
As for your funny "learned in a church basement in chicago" analysis, it's kind of hard to take seriously. Serbia isn't ready for EU accession. Neither were Bulgaria and Romania and the EU sees that now. So, you have a bit of tension between, "we are as ready as Bulgaria and Romania was" (true) and, "we don't need another Romania and Bulgaria" (also true). No, Croatia didn't get into the EU "because Nazi". Don't be ridiculous.
Do you know what you remind of Ari Gold? stupid extreme Albanian nationalists who listen to jingoistic songs and think that makes patriots. let me tell you something, you don't care for Serbia or Serbs. what you care about is an image, a mirage that exists in your head about what Serbia should be. let us take this phrase as an example "...eye-soar for emerging empire". this is what you think Serbia is. of course, on historical grounds this isn't even close to the truth (Serbs were part of the Ottoman Empire for 500 years, how that makes them an eyesore or resisters is a mystery to me), but this is what you honestly think Serbia is. let me ask you something, why don't you, a US citizen, to whom Serbia is nothing more than a holiday destination, move to Serbia, live with Serbs who live on around 300 Euros a month since you love it oh so much? i tell you why you don't do that, because then your lifestyle would hit a dent
Aha, so you compare one incident in 1970s called the "October crisis" to that of KLA tactics which murdered and kidnapped more Serbs in one week than the total number of victims from the crisis in Quebec...please.
And again I am reiterating you the painful reality that no matter how many of you may be walking around in Serbia, the EU DOES NOT WANT Serbia to join. They don't want you in their union. You look like fools begging and pleading to join a club where you are not wanted. Not just Serbia, the Balkans in general-Albania, FYR Macedonia, Bosnia none of these countries are wanted. Croatia only got in due to their historic and traditional ties to Germany and for standing with Germany and Austria and for supporting them every time these countries sought to establish an Empire in Europe.
I guess you do not know your own country's history. Kosovo i Metohija has been taken from Serbia before. In fact, Germany is occupying Serbia for the 3rd time in 100 years. It happens, when you are historically an eye-soar for emerging empires, its bound to happen. You of course regret being this eye soar and would rather lay down than stand up for your nations sovereignty, because you think that's "European" even though you have no idea what it means to be European or Western.
Yes you're right. But the French Quebecker, Flemish and Scottish separatist organizations do not murder policemen of the state they a part of as a way of expressing their separatism. None of these independence aspiring communities have terrorist organizations like the KLA to murder civilians
--------------
You're wrong. FLQ in Quebec kidnapped 2 and murdered 1 government officials as well setting a number of bombs causeing considerable property damage and injuring dozens in Quebec.
You might do well to ask yourself what is the difference in these situations. It's too easy to say, "oh, it was all the Albanians' fault; they're a bunch of savages". Have a look at the way the Canadian, UK, Belgium politicians in power deal with the moderates compared to the Serbian response.
On one hand you have the mainstream bringing in the moderate opposition into the mainstream discourse. On the other hand, you have the Serbian powers arresting and persecuting even the moderates, thereby radicalizing them and their supporters.
Serbia isn't being "asked to amputate some of its territory". Serbia LOST some of its territory due to political and social incompetance spanning decades. Serbia also wants to join the EU. Recognizing the reality of the situation is going to be a nessesary precondition to accession into this union, and thank goodness for that. Most people in Serbia, whether you believe it or not, want to be done with this black-hole of an issue.
Yes you're right. But the French Quebecker, Flemish and Scottish separatist organizations do not murder policemen of the state they a part of as a way of expressing their separatism. None of these independence aspiring communities have terrorist organizations like the KLA to murder civilians and extract organs.
No, what happens is an EU official comes to Serbia, dictates Western policy and then the pro-Western Serbs automatically assume that's what it means to adopt Western values. But the EU does not actually want that because adopting Western values actually means putting your own country before anyone else's. But the reason why this is a silly argument is because Serbia will NEVER join the EU, not in 2020 not in 2060. Part of it is because the EU may fall apart itself, but the main reason is because the EU simply does not want Serbia.
A few years back it was all about Mladic and Karadzic. Literally the summer Mladic was arrested, problems in Kosovo i Metohija restarted out of nowhere. Now that the agreement is in place with the separatists, you'll see Republika Srpska and nullifying Serbia's gas contract with Gazprom and participation in the South Stream Pipeline is up next. They dont want Serbia, this is the reality you EU extremists should face up to already.
Ari. Just someone has a different view of what's best for "your" country, doesn't mean they hate that country. Some serbs have a lot of maturing politically to do before they can understand this, I realize this.
Many western countries have had successionist movements. Canada, Belgium, UK now. Have a look at how they handled them and that should give you some understanding of western values and maybe also some understanding of where Serbia went wrong.
Of course I do. Allow me to explain further. The theory that I as well as many Serbs in the U.S. and elsewhere in the diaspora have is that Serbia today is governed by a Titoist ideology of anti-Serbism.
(Ari Gold, 25 February 2014 08:41)
Ok, and then what?! It's not the opinion of the Serbs in the diaspora that matters; the important one is the opinion of the Serbs in Serbia.
----------
This is an ideology that has evolved from the time of communism. Yesterday, the excuse for suppressing Serbian national interests was due to Yugoslav "Brotherhood & Unity" today its "EU has no alternative".
(Ari Gold, 25 February 2014 08:41)
Well, assuming you are correct, that it's the Serbian people who have so decided, via their elected representatives, that the EU has no alternative... That's Serbia's people sovereign decision.
Danilo, you have it all wrong. Those parties which you describe as "Chauvinist" did not say they would never work together in post-election coalitions, just pre-election ones. On the other hand, Tadic, Ceda Jovanovic, Zivkovic, Dinkic, Djilas etc... they were all apart of the SAME party at one point or another and have now split off into their own parties. The DSS, Radicals, Dveri etc. all came up at different times and were never all a part of the same movement.
It's not me that has a narrow mind as to what it means to be a Serb. It's you who has a narrow mind to what it means to be a "nationalist". The irony is, Serbs who love these Western values do not actually know what it means to be a Westerner. In the West, you do not support amputation of your territorial integrity to join some club. Americans, Germans, Austrians etc. would not support such a thing. No, Serbia will never join the EU. They don't want Serbia, but can't just say that because they want control over the region.
Actually, most of the SNS voters do believe in patriotic values but the SNS went a different way after the last elections. Now, they have a complete stranglehold on the media and pay people to further their cause. You see this even here with the SNS robots that comment here with their generic comments glorifying the SNS. Sure some parties like the Radicals are extreme which is why I don't vote for them, but for you, anyone who doesn't hate Serbia is a chauvinist.
Your problem, Ari, is you have a very narrow view of what it means to be a Serb. You think you can dictate what's pro and anit serb when, in fact, we're just talking about differing political opinions.
As for, "if they would work together, they would join coalitions now", is simply not true. SNS and SPS and DS didn't have pre-election coalitions, yet they worked with each other in different parliaments.
In contrast to the, the serbian-chauvanist-maximalist parties have said that they would never work with each other (even though their ideology is almost identical). Why? well, you kind of demonstrated in your post. People like you, who think they can dictate what is and isn't Serbian fill their ranks. Therefore, make a small distinction in ideology and you're out.
Therefore, the obnoxious serbian-chauvanist wing of politics is destined to die out (slowly, loudly), because it's simply incompatible with politics. Politics is about discussion and compromise, not sitting around carressing each other with three fingers and blaming everyone not with for being a traitor.
Of course I do. Allow me to explain further. The theory that I as well as many Serbs in the U.S. and elsewhere in the diaspora have is that Serbia today is governed by a Titoist ideology of anti-Serbism. This is an ideology that has evolved from the time of communism. Yesterday, the excuse for suppressing Serbian national interests was due to Yugoslav "Brotherhood & Unity" today its "EU has no alternative". In fact, many if not all of the left wing parties (and many on the right too, they just jeer to a different audience so they are not as open about it) are direct descendants of the communist elite that plagued Serbia for 40+ years. Now they just have changed their banners from communism to EU fanaticism. But the self-hating Serb ideology still continues.
If those parties were working together, they would join pre-election coalitions. Seeing as at least three of the parties I mentioned will not even make parliament this time, I think its safe to say that after completely destroying Serbia, they have all pointed the finger at each other and thus have splintered off. You of course, what more of the same.
LOL the same could be said for the self-hating Titoist parties i.e. Democrat Party, "new" democrat party, liberal democrat party, social democrat party, United Regions of Serbia, New Party etc etc. It seems its in Serbian genes to splinter off, individualism plagues Serbian society unfortunately.
But it doesn't make a party nationalist if they aren't complete self hating scum bags. It makes them normal.
(Ari Gold, 24 February 2014 17:52)
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "titoist" parties. I'm not sure you do either.
The obvious difference is that all the parties you mention are willing to work with each other. Kostunica, SRS, Dveri, et all, though they are almost ideologically identical to each other, they explicitly state that they can't and won't work with each other.
It's fun watching all these maximalist serbian-chauvanist parties split into smaller and smaller groups, thereby eliminating eachother.
SAMO NAPRED TRECA SRBIJO!
(Danilo, 24 February 2014 14:54)
LOL the same could be said for the self-hating Titoist parties i.e. Democrat Party, "new" democrat party, liberal democrat party, social democrat party, United Regions of Serbia, New Party etc etc. It seems its in Serbian genes to splinter off, individualism plagues Serbian society unfortunately.
But it doesn't make a party nationalist if they aren't complete self hating scum bags. It makes them normal.
"“In the EU member states the unemployment rate is over 26 percent, and among young people it is 55 percent. As many as 120 million people in the EU live on the verge of poverty,” said Koštunica and asked if a dignified Serbia should join such a community at all."
I think Vojislav should make more use of the statistics of the CE of B92 forums sj to make his case, but anyway, I'm sure Kosovo fully supports his arguments that Serbia should never join the EU
This is the most sensible and rational politician in the mainstream political scene in Serbia. I myself am going to vote for a new, lesser known party called Treca Srbija (Third Serbia) in the upcoming elections. Mainly out of principle that Serbia's political scene needs new faces and not the same old actors. But out of those dinosaurs, Kostunica is the most decent and realistic of them all.
This is the most sensible and rational politician in the mainstream political scene in Serbia. I myself am going to vote for a new, lesser known party called Treca Srbija (Third Serbia) in the upcoming elections. Mainly out of principle that Serbia's political scene needs new faces and not the same old actors. But out of those dinosaurs, Kostunica is the most decent and realistic of them all.
Ari, I was going to respond but you didn't need any help. You thoroughly dismantled Danilo's self hating Serb theories, good work!
Danilo, give it up. Go back to Vancouver, you clearly hate Serbia and where you come from....oh, I forgot, you like to make money on the backs of the people you hate and insult continuously. What a fine moral person you are, I'm sure your parents must be proud...NOT!
You comparing the October crisis to decades of albanian terrorism against indigenous Serbs in Kosovo is not only laughable, it's insulting. Google it, the New York times and several other of your beloved western news sources reported on it, and this was going on well before Milosevic was around. You have no knowledge of history, and not much else for that matter. They say ignorance is bliss, but in your case it doesn't add up, since you're a miserable unpopular person on top of being ignorant.
Cheers!!
It's fun watching all these maximalist serbian-chauvanist parties split into smaller and smaller groups, thereby eliminating eachother.
SAMO NAPRED TRECA SRBIJO!
(Danilo, 24 February 2014 14:54)
LOL the same could be said for the self-hating Titoist parties i.e. Democrat Party, "new" democrat party, liberal democrat party, social democrat party, United Regions of Serbia, New Party etc etc. It seems its in Serbian genes to splinter off, individualism plagues Serbian society unfortunately.
But it doesn't make a party nationalist if they aren't complete self hating scum bags. It makes them normal.
"“In the EU member states the unemployment rate is over 26 percent, and among young people it is 55 percent. As many as 120 million people in the EU live on the verge of poverty,” said Koštunica and asked if a dignified Serbia should join such a community at all."
I think Vojislav should make more use of the statistics of the CE of B92 forums sj to make his case, but anyway, I'm sure Kosovo fully supports his arguments that Serbia should never join the EU
Of course I do. Allow me to explain further. The theory that I as well as many Serbs in the U.S. and elsewhere in the diaspora have is that Serbia today is governed by a Titoist ideology of anti-Serbism. This is an ideology that has evolved from the time of communism. Yesterday, the excuse for suppressing Serbian national interests was due to Yugoslav "Brotherhood & Unity" today its "EU has no alternative". In fact, many if not all of the left wing parties (and many on the right too, they just jeer to a different audience so they are not as open about it) are direct descendants of the communist elite that plagued Serbia for 40+ years. Now they just have changed their banners from communism to EU fanaticism. But the self-hating Serb ideology still continues.
If those parties were working together, they would join pre-election coalitions. Seeing as at least three of the parties I mentioned will not even make parliament this time, I think its safe to say that after completely destroying Serbia, they have all pointed the finger at each other and thus have splintered off. You of course, what more of the same.
Danilo, you have it all wrong. Those parties which you describe as "Chauvinist" did not say they would never work together in post-election coalitions, just pre-election ones. On the other hand, Tadic, Ceda Jovanovic, Zivkovic, Dinkic, Djilas etc... they were all apart of the SAME party at one point or another and have now split off into their own parties. The DSS, Radicals, Dveri etc. all came up at different times and were never all a part of the same movement.
It's not me that has a narrow mind as to what it means to be a Serb. It's you who has a narrow mind to what it means to be a "nationalist". The irony is, Serbs who love these Western values do not actually know what it means to be a Westerner. In the West, you do not support amputation of your territorial integrity to join some club. Americans, Germans, Austrians etc. would not support such a thing. No, Serbia will never join the EU. They don't want Serbia, but can't just say that because they want control over the region.
Actually, most of the SNS voters do believe in patriotic values but the SNS went a different way after the last elections. Now, they have a complete stranglehold on the media and pay people to further their cause. You see this even here with the SNS robots that comment here with their generic comments glorifying the SNS. Sure some parties like the Radicals are extreme which is why I don't vote for them, but for you, anyone who doesn't hate Serbia is a chauvinist.
Do you know what you remind of Ari Gold? stupid extreme Albanian nationalists who listen to jingoistic songs and think that makes patriots. let me tell you something, you don't care for Serbia or Serbs. what you care about is an image, a mirage that exists in your head about what Serbia should be. let us take this phrase as an example "...eye-soar for emerging empire". this is what you think Serbia is. of course, on historical grounds this isn't even close to the truth (Serbs were part of the Ottoman Empire for 500 years, how that makes them an eyesore or resisters is a mystery to me), but this is what you honestly think Serbia is. let me ask you something, why don't you, a US citizen, to whom Serbia is nothing more than a holiday destination, move to Serbia, live with Serbs who live on around 300 Euros a month since you love it oh so much? i tell you why you don't do that, because then your lifestyle would hit a dent
Of course I do. Allow me to explain further. The theory that I as well as many Serbs in the U.S. and elsewhere in the diaspora have is that Serbia today is governed by a Titoist ideology of anti-Serbism.
(Ari Gold, 25 February 2014 08:41)
Ok, and then what?! It's not the opinion of the Serbs in the diaspora that matters; the important one is the opinion of the Serbs in Serbia.
----------
This is an ideology that has evolved from the time of communism. Yesterday, the excuse for suppressing Serbian national interests was due to Yugoslav "Brotherhood & Unity" today its "EU has no alternative".
(Ari Gold, 25 February 2014 08:41)
Well, assuming you are correct, that it's the Serbian people who have so decided, via their elected representatives, that the EU has no alternative... That's Serbia's people sovereign decision.
Ari. Just someone has a different view of what's best for "your" country, doesn't mean they hate that country. Some serbs have a lot of maturing politically to do before they can understand this, I realize this.
Many western countries have had successionist movements. Canada, Belgium, UK now. Have a look at how they handled them and that should give you some understanding of western values and maybe also some understanding of where Serbia went wrong.
Yes you're right. But the French Quebecker, Flemish and Scottish separatist organizations do not murder policemen of the state they a part of as a way of expressing their separatism. None of these independence aspiring communities have terrorist organizations like the KLA to murder civilians and extract organs.
No, what happens is an EU official comes to Serbia, dictates Western policy and then the pro-Western Serbs automatically assume that's what it means to adopt Western values. But the EU does not actually want that because adopting Western values actually means putting your own country before anyone else's. But the reason why this is a silly argument is because Serbia will NEVER join the EU, not in 2020 not in 2060. Part of it is because the EU may fall apart itself, but the main reason is because the EU simply does not want Serbia.
A few years back it was all about Mladic and Karadzic. Literally the summer Mladic was arrested, problems in Kosovo i Metohija restarted out of nowhere. Now that the agreement is in place with the separatists, you'll see Republika Srpska and nullifying Serbia's gas contract with Gazprom and participation in the South Stream Pipeline is up next. They dont want Serbia, this is the reality you EU extremists should face up to already.
Aha, so you compare one incident in 1970s called the "October crisis" to that of KLA tactics which murdered and kidnapped more Serbs in one week than the total number of victims from the crisis in Quebec...please.
And again I am reiterating you the painful reality that no matter how many of you may be walking around in Serbia, the EU DOES NOT WANT Serbia to join. They don't want you in their union. You look like fools begging and pleading to join a club where you are not wanted. Not just Serbia, the Balkans in general-Albania, FYR Macedonia, Bosnia none of these countries are wanted. Croatia only got in due to their historic and traditional ties to Germany and for standing with Germany and Austria and for supporting them every time these countries sought to establish an Empire in Europe.
I guess you do not know your own country's history. Kosovo i Metohija has been taken from Serbia before. In fact, Germany is occupying Serbia for the 3rd time in 100 years. It happens, when you are historically an eye-soar for emerging empires, its bound to happen. You of course regret being this eye soar and would rather lay down than stand up for your nations sovereignty, because you think that's "European" even though you have no idea what it means to be European or Western.
LOL the same could be said for the self-hating Titoist parties i.e. Democrat Party, "new" democrat party, liberal democrat party, social democrat party, United Regions of Serbia, New Party etc etc. It seems its in Serbian genes to splinter off, individualism plagues Serbian society unfortunately.
But it doesn't make a party nationalist if they aren't complete self hating scum bags. It makes them normal.
(Ari Gold, 24 February 2014 17:52)
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "titoist" parties. I'm not sure you do either.
The obvious difference is that all the parties you mention are willing to work with each other. Kostunica, SRS, Dveri, et all, though they are almost ideologically identical to each other, they explicitly state that they can't and won't work with each other.
Your problem, Ari, is you have a very narrow view of what it means to be a Serb. You think you can dictate what's pro and anit serb when, in fact, we're just talking about differing political opinions.
As for, "if they would work together, they would join coalitions now", is simply not true. SNS and SPS and DS didn't have pre-election coalitions, yet they worked with each other in different parliaments.
In contrast to the, the serbian-chauvanist-maximalist parties have said that they would never work with each other (even though their ideology is almost identical). Why? well, you kind of demonstrated in your post. People like you, who think they can dictate what is and isn't Serbian fill their ranks. Therefore, make a small distinction in ideology and you're out.
Therefore, the obnoxious serbian-chauvanist wing of politics is destined to die out (slowly, loudly), because it's simply incompatible with politics. Politics is about discussion and compromise, not sitting around carressing each other with three fingers and blaming everyone not with for being a traitor.
Yes you're right. But the French Quebecker, Flemish and Scottish separatist organizations do not murder policemen of the state they a part of as a way of expressing their separatism. None of these independence aspiring communities have terrorist organizations like the KLA to murder civilians
--------------
You're wrong. FLQ in Quebec kidnapped 2 and murdered 1 government officials as well setting a number of bombs causeing considerable property damage and injuring dozens in Quebec.
You might do well to ask yourself what is the difference in these situations. It's too easy to say, "oh, it was all the Albanians' fault; they're a bunch of savages". Have a look at the way the Canadian, UK, Belgium politicians in power deal with the moderates compared to the Serbian response.
On one hand you have the mainstream bringing in the moderate opposition into the mainstream discourse. On the other hand, you have the Serbian powers arresting and persecuting even the moderates, thereby radicalizing them and their supporters.
Serbia isn't being "asked to amputate some of its territory". Serbia LOST some of its territory due to political and social incompetance spanning decades. Serbia also wants to join the EU. Recognizing the reality of the situation is going to be a nessesary precondition to accession into this union, and thank goodness for that. Most people in Serbia, whether you believe it or not, want to be done with this black-hole of an issue.
FLQ got their start just like the KLA, Ari. The October crisis (kidnappings (and murder) of a UK and Canadian government official and the subsequent imposition of martial law) was part of an ongoing series of attacks. Canada even flirted with the Serbian way of handling things - with an iron fist, before they backed off and did it the more Canadian way. Serbia didn't lose Kosovo in a single war with NATO. Serbia lost Kosovo over 10 years of mismanaging a separtist situation. Separtism has to be on the table of acceptable things to talk about in order to avoid separtism.
As for your funny "learned in a church basement in chicago" analysis, it's kind of hard to take seriously. Serbia isn't ready for EU accession. Neither were Bulgaria and Romania and the EU sees that now. So, you have a bit of tension between, "we are as ready as Bulgaria and Romania was" (true) and, "we don't need another Romania and Bulgaria" (also true). No, Croatia didn't get into the EU "because Nazi". Don't be ridiculous.
Of course the situation in Quebec is different from Kosovo, Dragane. Different in the way it was dealt with. Canada certainly could have gone the Kosovo way if they were stupid, and they almost were.
clear up a few point:
I'm not "from" Serbia. My grandparents were born here.
Serbs and Albanians are both indigeonous to Kosovo.
I'm not too worried about how "popular" I am, but ones popularity on the b92.net comments forum are hardly some sort of accurate barometer.
Luckily, I have good memory and distinctly remember you saying you lived in Serbia. Now its "your grandparents were born there"... so you are a 3rd generation Serb, who loathes Serbian national interest and yet you have a big interest in...Serbia?! Come on man, you are not a Westerner. No one believes you, no matter how much you would like to be.
This is the most sensible and rational politician in the mainstream political scene in Serbia. I myself am going to vote for a new, lesser known party called Treca Srbija (Third Serbia) in the upcoming elections. Mainly out of principle that Serbia's political scene needs new faces and not the same old actors. But out of those dinosaurs, Kostunica is the most decent and realistic of them all.
Of course the situation in Quebec is different from Kosovo, Dragane. Different in the way it was dealt with. Canada certainly could have gone the Kosovo way if they were stupid, and they almost were.
clear up a few point:
I'm not "from" Serbia. My grandparents were born here.
Serbs and Albanians are both indigeonous to Kosovo.
I'm not too worried about how "popular" I am, but ones popularity on the b92.net comments forum are hardly some sort of accurate barometer.
"“In the EU member states the unemployment rate is over 26 percent, and among young people it is 55 percent. As many as 120 million people in the EU live on the verge of poverty,” said Koštunica and asked if a dignified Serbia should join such a community at all."
I think Vojislav should make more use of the statistics of the CE of B92 forums sj to make his case, but anyway, I'm sure Kosovo fully supports his arguments that Serbia should never join the EU
LOL the same could be said for the self-hating Titoist parties i.e. Democrat Party, "new" democrat party, liberal democrat party, social democrat party, United Regions of Serbia, New Party etc etc. It seems its in Serbian genes to splinter off, individualism plagues Serbian society unfortunately.
But it doesn't make a party nationalist if they aren't complete self hating scum bags. It makes them normal.
(Ari Gold, 24 February 2014 17:52)
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "titoist" parties. I'm not sure you do either.
The obvious difference is that all the parties you mention are willing to work with each other. Kostunica, SRS, Dveri, et all, though they are almost ideologically identical to each other, they explicitly state that they can't and won't work with each other.
Luckily, I have good memory and distinctly remember you saying you lived in Serbia. Now its "your grandparents were born there"... so you are a 3rd generation Serb, who loathes Serbian national interest and yet you have a big interest in...Serbia?! Come on man, you are not a Westerner. No one believes you, no matter how much you would like to be.
It's fun watching all these maximalist serbian-chauvanist parties split into smaller and smaller groups, thereby eliminating eachother.
SAMO NAPRED TRECA SRBIJO!
(Danilo, 24 February 2014 14:54)
LOL the same could be said for the self-hating Titoist parties i.e. Democrat Party, "new" democrat party, liberal democrat party, social democrat party, United Regions of Serbia, New Party etc etc. It seems its in Serbian genes to splinter off, individualism plagues Serbian society unfortunately.
But it doesn't make a party nationalist if they aren't complete self hating scum bags. It makes them normal.
Your problem, Ari, is you have a very narrow view of what it means to be a Serb. You think you can dictate what's pro and anit serb when, in fact, we're just talking about differing political opinions.
As for, "if they would work together, they would join coalitions now", is simply not true. SNS and SPS and DS didn't have pre-election coalitions, yet they worked with each other in different parliaments.
In contrast to the, the serbian-chauvanist-maximalist parties have said that they would never work with each other (even though their ideology is almost identical). Why? well, you kind of demonstrated in your post. People like you, who think they can dictate what is and isn't Serbian fill their ranks. Therefore, make a small distinction in ideology and you're out.
Therefore, the obnoxious serbian-chauvanist wing of politics is destined to die out (slowly, loudly), because it's simply incompatible with politics. Politics is about discussion and compromise, not sitting around carressing each other with three fingers and blaming everyone not with for being a traitor.
Yes you're right. But the French Quebecker, Flemish and Scottish separatist organizations do not murder policemen of the state they a part of as a way of expressing their separatism. None of these independence aspiring communities have terrorist organizations like the KLA to murder civilians and extract organs.
No, what happens is an EU official comes to Serbia, dictates Western policy and then the pro-Western Serbs automatically assume that's what it means to adopt Western values. But the EU does not actually want that because adopting Western values actually means putting your own country before anyone else's. But the reason why this is a silly argument is because Serbia will NEVER join the EU, not in 2020 not in 2060. Part of it is because the EU may fall apart itself, but the main reason is because the EU simply does not want Serbia.
A few years back it was all about Mladic and Karadzic. Literally the summer Mladic was arrested, problems in Kosovo i Metohija restarted out of nowhere. Now that the agreement is in place with the separatists, you'll see Republika Srpska and nullifying Serbia's gas contract with Gazprom and participation in the South Stream Pipeline is up next. They dont want Serbia, this is the reality you EU extremists should face up to already.
Ari, I was going to respond but you didn't need any help. You thoroughly dismantled Danilo's self hating Serb theories, good work!
Danilo, give it up. Go back to Vancouver, you clearly hate Serbia and where you come from....oh, I forgot, you like to make money on the backs of the people you hate and insult continuously. What a fine moral person you are, I'm sure your parents must be proud...NOT!
You comparing the October crisis to decades of albanian terrorism against indigenous Serbs in Kosovo is not only laughable, it's insulting. Google it, the New York times and several other of your beloved western news sources reported on it, and this was going on well before Milosevic was around. You have no knowledge of history, and not much else for that matter. They say ignorance is bliss, but in your case it doesn't add up, since you're a miserable unpopular person on top of being ignorant.
Cheers!!
Aha, so you compare one incident in 1970s called the "October crisis" to that of KLA tactics which murdered and kidnapped more Serbs in one week than the total number of victims from the crisis in Quebec...please.
And again I am reiterating you the painful reality that no matter how many of you may be walking around in Serbia, the EU DOES NOT WANT Serbia to join. They don't want you in their union. You look like fools begging and pleading to join a club where you are not wanted. Not just Serbia, the Balkans in general-Albania, FYR Macedonia, Bosnia none of these countries are wanted. Croatia only got in due to their historic and traditional ties to Germany and for standing with Germany and Austria and for supporting them every time these countries sought to establish an Empire in Europe.
I guess you do not know your own country's history. Kosovo i Metohija has been taken from Serbia before. In fact, Germany is occupying Serbia for the 3rd time in 100 years. It happens, when you are historically an eye-soar for emerging empires, its bound to happen. You of course regret being this eye soar and would rather lay down than stand up for your nations sovereignty, because you think that's "European" even though you have no idea what it means to be European or Western.
Do you know what you remind of Ari Gold? stupid extreme Albanian nationalists who listen to jingoistic songs and think that makes patriots. let me tell you something, you don't care for Serbia or Serbs. what you care about is an image, a mirage that exists in your head about what Serbia should be. let us take this phrase as an example "...eye-soar for emerging empire". this is what you think Serbia is. of course, on historical grounds this isn't even close to the truth (Serbs were part of the Ottoman Empire for 500 years, how that makes them an eyesore or resisters is a mystery to me), but this is what you honestly think Serbia is. let me ask you something, why don't you, a US citizen, to whom Serbia is nothing more than a holiday destination, move to Serbia, live with Serbs who live on around 300 Euros a month since you love it oh so much? i tell you why you don't do that, because then your lifestyle would hit a dent
FLQ got their start just like the KLA, Ari. The October crisis (kidnappings (and murder) of a UK and Canadian government official and the subsequent imposition of martial law) was part of an ongoing series of attacks. Canada even flirted with the Serbian way of handling things - with an iron fist, before they backed off and did it the more Canadian way. Serbia didn't lose Kosovo in a single war with NATO. Serbia lost Kosovo over 10 years of mismanaging a separtist situation. Separtism has to be on the table of acceptable things to talk about in order to avoid separtism.
As for your funny "learned in a church basement in chicago" analysis, it's kind of hard to take seriously. Serbia isn't ready for EU accession. Neither were Bulgaria and Romania and the EU sees that now. So, you have a bit of tension between, "we are as ready as Bulgaria and Romania was" (true) and, "we don't need another Romania and Bulgaria" (also true). No, Croatia didn't get into the EU "because Nazi". Don't be ridiculous.
Danilo, you have it all wrong. Those parties which you describe as "Chauvinist" did not say they would never work together in post-election coalitions, just pre-election ones. On the other hand, Tadic, Ceda Jovanovic, Zivkovic, Dinkic, Djilas etc... they were all apart of the SAME party at one point or another and have now split off into their own parties. The DSS, Radicals, Dveri etc. all came up at different times and were never all a part of the same movement.
It's not me that has a narrow mind as to what it means to be a Serb. It's you who has a narrow mind to what it means to be a "nationalist". The irony is, Serbs who love these Western values do not actually know what it means to be a Westerner. In the West, you do not support amputation of your territorial integrity to join some club. Americans, Germans, Austrians etc. would not support such a thing. No, Serbia will never join the EU. They don't want Serbia, but can't just say that because they want control over the region.
Actually, most of the SNS voters do believe in patriotic values but the SNS went a different way after the last elections. Now, they have a complete stranglehold on the media and pay people to further their cause. You see this even here with the SNS robots that comment here with their generic comments glorifying the SNS. Sure some parties like the Radicals are extreme which is why I don't vote for them, but for you, anyone who doesn't hate Serbia is a chauvinist.
Of course I do. Allow me to explain further. The theory that I as well as many Serbs in the U.S. and elsewhere in the diaspora have is that Serbia today is governed by a Titoist ideology of anti-Serbism.
(Ari Gold, 25 February 2014 08:41)
Ok, and then what?! It's not the opinion of the Serbs in the diaspora that matters; the important one is the opinion of the Serbs in Serbia.
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This is an ideology that has evolved from the time of communism. Yesterday, the excuse for suppressing Serbian national interests was due to Yugoslav "Brotherhood & Unity" today its "EU has no alternative".
(Ari Gold, 25 February 2014 08:41)
Well, assuming you are correct, that it's the Serbian people who have so decided, via their elected representatives, that the EU has no alternative... That's Serbia's people sovereign decision.
Ari. Just someone has a different view of what's best for "your" country, doesn't mean they hate that country. Some serbs have a lot of maturing politically to do before they can understand this, I realize this.
Many western countries have had successionist movements. Canada, Belgium, UK now. Have a look at how they handled them and that should give you some understanding of western values and maybe also some understanding of where Serbia went wrong.
Yes you're right. But the French Quebecker, Flemish and Scottish separatist organizations do not murder policemen of the state they a part of as a way of expressing their separatism. None of these independence aspiring communities have terrorist organizations like the KLA to murder civilians
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You're wrong. FLQ in Quebec kidnapped 2 and murdered 1 government officials as well setting a number of bombs causeing considerable property damage and injuring dozens in Quebec.
You might do well to ask yourself what is the difference in these situations. It's too easy to say, "oh, it was all the Albanians' fault; they're a bunch of savages". Have a look at the way the Canadian, UK, Belgium politicians in power deal with the moderates compared to the Serbian response.
On one hand you have the mainstream bringing in the moderate opposition into the mainstream discourse. On the other hand, you have the Serbian powers arresting and persecuting even the moderates, thereby radicalizing them and their supporters.
Serbia isn't being "asked to amputate some of its territory". Serbia LOST some of its territory due to political and social incompetance spanning decades. Serbia also wants to join the EU. Recognizing the reality of the situation is going to be a nessesary precondition to accession into this union, and thank goodness for that. Most people in Serbia, whether you believe it or not, want to be done with this black-hole of an issue.
Of course I do. Allow me to explain further. The theory that I as well as many Serbs in the U.S. and elsewhere in the diaspora have is that Serbia today is governed by a Titoist ideology of anti-Serbism. This is an ideology that has evolved from the time of communism. Yesterday, the excuse for suppressing Serbian national interests was due to Yugoslav "Brotherhood & Unity" today its "EU has no alternative". In fact, many if not all of the left wing parties (and many on the right too, they just jeer to a different audience so they are not as open about it) are direct descendants of the communist elite that plagued Serbia for 40+ years. Now they just have changed their banners from communism to EU fanaticism. But the self-hating Serb ideology still continues.
If those parties were working together, they would join pre-election coalitions. Seeing as at least three of the parties I mentioned will not even make parliament this time, I think its safe to say that after completely destroying Serbia, they have all pointed the finger at each other and thus have splintered off. You of course, what more of the same.
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