Greece suggest "Slavic-Albanian Macedonia" to end dispute
The Greek negotiator in the decades-long dispute over the name of Macedonia has put forward a proposal to call the country "the Slavic-Albanian Macedonia."
I am appalled to know that in the 21st century we are disputing ancient ancient information .
When Yugoslavia split, each and every republic was recognized for the republic they were always known as when it was once Yugoslavia.
If all the other republics can be recognized then The republic of Macedonia should be no different.
I am shocked and appalled to know that racism still exists in this day and age.
Greece is Greece and Serbia is Serbia , Croatia is Croatia . Therefore , Macedonia is Macedonia .
To make up a name for a country to please another country is sadly disappointing . It's like asking Greece to change there name to Turkish Greece . How silly in this day and age .
Your referring to people not boarding game naming .
Let history stay in the past , learn to accept and respect one another for who we are today .
Racism is taught , we are not born to be racists.
Denying someone's true identity is stripping them of there rights .
How sad :( .
Truly disappointed and astonished ,
21st Century Canadian Macedonian
thanasis
so you don't dispute you are a created state?
then I guess Macedonia is Macedonia and Greece is starting trouble as usual.
from someone looking in with no ties to either countries it looks very bad and stupid for Greece to stamp authority in the region while they are bankrupt, Germany could easily shut Greece down and hand back the north to Macedonia, the west to Albania and the south to Turkey.
I think the Greeks should tread very carefully and settle down a touch.
And Albania is a donation by Italy and Austria. You wanna go down that road? At least we bastards fought for our freedom and independence. When and where exactly did you pure-blooded Illyrians fight in order to become free? Oh i forgot you didn't.
hahaha, what a funny proposal. I think Greece should be called "Greek-Albanian-Vlacho-Slavo-Turko Greece".
Out of all people, Greeks should not even get that conversation started. Even the first king of Greece, Otto in 1832, acknowledged that most of the population within his Greek republic actually spoke Albanian! Greece is a romantic Western European creation.
What I said is Alexander's prime reason for his expedition in Asia was to deal with the Persian menace once and for all.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
Well, that's precisely what Bush said, as well... He attacked Afghanistan to deal with the Al-Qaeda menace once and for all.
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Having done that then he decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between East and West and exposed those vast areas to Greek civilization and influence.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
exactly, that's what Bush did as well... He decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between America and Iraq and exposing those vast areas to democracy and influence.
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The huge difference between Alexander's wars and modern definition of imperialism the former was in defence of your country whereas the latter is in pursuit of profits by killing and subjugating people.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
The explanation you gave showed that there is no difference at all since modern imperialism (like Bush's one) was in defence of Bush's country, as well, unless, of course, you don't consider as imperialism what Bush did.
Can someone answer me why there are over 1 million ethnic Macedonians in Thessaloniki that claim to be tied to Skopje and the old Macedonia? the Macedonian movement is starting for the return of solun to Macedonia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28ptQb1ack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2AdHSNaIok
original Macedonians in Greece celebrating the Macedonian uprising
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EusJKOcyJAU
and didn't Iraklis FC want to join their home nation and play in the Macedonian football league
http://macedoniadaily.blogspot.com.au/2010/06/greek-football-club-to-play-in.html
Genome mapping tells us who from what, as far as I am concerned people can call themselves whatever the hell they want, but that doesn't make it so. If someone wants to pretend they are egyptian that is fine, if someone wants to pretend they are Macedonian I don't see why not. If some man wants to dress up and pretend he is Napoleon or a woman, what do I care? You can call yourself whatever you want just as long as you don't try to make me recognize your nonsense. So the solution I think is no solution - let them call themselves Macedonians and let the Greeks call them something else entirely. Meanwhile lets rebuild the economy and economic co-operation for regular people who don't care about politics so that we can have this argument when every kid is fed, pensioners are well taken care of, and we are a little wealthier
to get back on track now, there is no doubt that the attempt to create a Macedonian identity linked to the ancient ones are nothing but laughable. its well known that the current Maceodnians are Slavs and hence this connection to Alexander and Philip is fictional. this though doesn't mean that Greece should dictate what the name of the country should be. i don't see why Macedonia cannot be called Macedonia. its only a name, it represents no threat to Greece, either militarily or culturally.
Thanasis,
Fair enough we do not have to agree. My point is that no matter what facts we use, it's very difficult to convice each other. Establishing positions of superiority for our nations in these discourse doesn't help neither.
As far as Macedonian Albanians, you might not be aware , but they speak a dialect of Albanian language spoken in southeastern Albania. Also the first conference of Albanian language was held in Manastiri in Macedonia. It's true that there is a certain distance created between Albanians due to past physical distance. But with the new highways connecting Tirana-Prishtina-Skopje, things have started to change fast. There is also unified education programs, increase in trade and cultural exchanges. Bottom line, as our world renown writer Ismail Kadare says, there have never been in modern history more Albanian living in relative freedom. And I believe that this will be good for the Balkans.
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Sorry but we had a census in 2011 and no "indigenous Albanians" were found in Greece. The next census is in 2021 but don't lose faith. By then hopefully some "indigenous Albanians" will have grown from the ground.
I disagree with you my friend. History is a science and as a science it has its methodology and sources. You claim that the Greeks in southern Albania are immigrants. So where did they come from, when did this migration take place and which historian mentions it? We can all make all sorts of claims but there are claims which are based on historic facts and claims that are totally arbitrary. Not all claims have the same value. There is the historic truth and in order to find it all you have to do is open the books and resort to the sources.
As for the second part of your comment and your assertion that Greece is worried about the creation of a third albanian controlled state in western FYROM i can assure you that noone in Greece will be too displeased if that country falls apart. On the contrary we think that such a development is unavoidable. The eastern part will be united with Bulgaria since the slavic population is mainly bulgarian while the western part will more probably be attached to Kosovo and not Albania. I don't think that the Albanians have enough internal cohesion in order to form one big albanian state. I know you ain't gonna admit that but that's my opinion and i think i'm right.
As for peace and prosperity in the Balkans Greece is the only country that invested money and effort towards that direction but we didn't get a response from our neighbors. They chose their ridiculous nationalisms and tried to roar like lions even though they were mice.
Mr. Thanasis you ask a very good question " so how many Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares are their".
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Greece must first ackowledge non ethnic indigenous inhabitants existed before Greek independence.
Shqiptare native were unjusted ethnicly cleansed,suffered Genocide and illegaly had property taken from them.
They don't even have the right to return,even as Greek citizens...
And yet they "invented Democracy" and what not.
EU needs to monitor and re evaluate Greek membership qualifications.
Thanasis,
You state that Arvanitis are emigrants, we state Greeks of South Albania are emigrants. You can never find the truth, especially because both parties believe are right. The truth in case of Macedonia is that Greece is worried about a potential third Albanian controled state, 50 years down the road and the implications that come with it. Slav Macedonians somehow don't get it, and believe it's about them. But wasting money building monuments and building doesn't buy you neither history neither demography. I would hope I am wrong and Balkan countries get out of primitive status of perpetual fighting for someone elses land , but so far I am not sure. At the end of the day it doesn't matter whom came first where. We are here breathing , with God given right to live our lifes and persue our happiness. And I mean all of us.....
Mr. Thanasis you ask a very good question " so how many Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares are their".
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Greece must first ackowledge non ethnic indigenous inhabitants existed before Greek independence.
Shqiptare native were unjusted ethnicly cleansed,suffered Genocide and illegaly had property taken from them.
They don't even have the right to return,even as Greek citizens...
And yet they "invented Democracy" and what not.
EU needs to monitor and re evaluate Greek membership qualifications.
Greeks and Serbs habitualy exagerate their minorities count when its in their interest and automaticly either undercount or even deny outright their actual existance as the Greeks do with The Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares occupied by Greece.
So how many are those Chams, Arvanites and "other indigenous shqiptares" who live in the greek occupied albanian lands? Can you give me a number or a rough estimate? And by the way the Arvanites came to Greece in the 14th century and noone denies that but i guess that the word indigenous has a different meaning in the albanian language than in any other language of the world.
Where did this one come from? Oh I see, because I misspelled Alexander's name. It matters not one iota to me if he was a homosexual, it seems to matter to you though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought him fathering children into it.
oh dear, Alexandra was a true humanist! you used the phrase expand the hellenic way of life, not defend the hellenic way of life. once the persians were defeated, he went on into other parts, but i get it now, his primary reason was to trade, not to conquer. yes, that is not imperialism, thats just opening borders
excuse me, but you just here described Alexander The Great's campaigns in romantic terms, you even said he wanted to extend the Hellenistic way of life. and where did he extend that into? into parts of the world that weren't greek right? thats imperialism, but for one reason or another, in your eyes, thats good imperialism.
(Nikolle, 31 October 2013 11:14)
No I didn't. What I said is Alexander's prime reason for his expedition in Asia was to deal with the Persian menace once and for all.This is also confirmed by the number of plots and mutinies by his generals and soldiers who wanted to return back to Greece.
Having done that then he decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between East and West and exposed those vast areas to Greek civilization and influence.Some of the cities he founded became major cultural centres ( Alexandria), many surviving into the 21st century.The huge difference between Alexander's wars and modern definition of imperialism the former was in defence of your country whereas the latter is in pursuit of profits by killing and subjugating people.
".I do recall your postings being animated against people who were against Western intervention in Syria"
did not see this one. lets see, 100000 dead in Syria thus far, and counting, and yet people believe that doing nothing is better than doing something. The World didn't intervene in Rwanda either, it left them do deal with their own problems, was that good do you think?
The Albanians in Greece are immigrants like they are in Italy,Germany or Switzerland whereas in your country are autochthonous thus the 2001 Ohrid agreement which confirms their position.I am not sure what is their present size but what I know is your government has cancelled the planned census out of fear that it would confirm higher numbers for the Albanians.Instead of being concerned about Greece you should be concerned about Fyrom and on present trends in few years you'll be toast.
".If modern people were following the teachings of Jesus the world would've been a better place."
yep, and if we have states (ala Greece) that constitutionally define themselves as part of that faith, then you have bigotry, racism and Leonidas, none of which, are good ideas. Greeks should go back to the teachings of Epicurus and not bow to their priests all the time
another one who taught us the wisdom of inquisitive thinking and asking questions. sadly the modern greeks have forgotten those lessons, they have chosen Jesus instead. so much so that they define themselves as a state of the orthodox faith. yeah, you really for have much in common with humanistic hellenists like Epicurus, Socrates, Aristarchus, etal.
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 23:43)
Throwing few ancient Greek names at me doesn't grant you the title of being of a wisdom inquisitive person.On the contrary the overwhelming majority of Albanians are just sheeple and ready to oblige at anyone throwing few crumbs at them.Just take a look at yourself and your actions and see whether you've got any humanity in you before you start questioning others.If modern people were following the teachings of Jesus the world would've been a better place.
excuse me, but you just here described Alexander The Great's campaigns in romantic terms, you even said he wanted to extend the Hellenistic way of life. and where did he extend that into? into parts of the world that weren't greek right? thats imperialism, but for one reason or another, in your eyes, thats good imperialism.
so much for your anti-imperialsit leanings eh Leonidas? some Empires are OK right?
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 23:57)
The title of pro-imperialist crusader belongs to you and your fellow Albanians that never lose the opportunity to cheer the likes of war criminals Clinton,Bush ,Blair and Obama who have slaughtered millions in their imperialistic wars against Iraq,Afganistan and Libya in the last few years.I do recall your postings being animated against people who were against Western intervention in Syria.Enjoy your ANTI-IMPERIALISM.
Daniel this might surprise you but the CIA Factbook doesn't actually go into countries conducting independent CENSUS.
The information you get is partialy supplied from subject countries and CIA is usualy into providing disinformation......
For example the Greek minority in Albania number 60,000 but Athens claims 600,000,
Just like Serbs...... they love to exaggerate their true body count when it clearly suites them.
Greeks and Serbs habitualy exagerate their minorities count when its in their interest and automaticly either undercount or even deny outright their actual existance as the Greeks do with The Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares occupied by Greece.
The CIA Factbook is the Agency's best "GUESS-TIMATE".
Contrary to your usual ignorant comments the majority of British classical historians ( Tom Holland,Robin Lane Fox)amongst others take the view that had Alexander been defeated by the Persians and Greek states annihilated, the Western democracy, culture, art and philosophy that developed from this period in history might have been lost, and the Western world today could be very different.Read Tom Holland's "Persian Fire" or Robin Lane Fox's "Classical Greece" to open your eyes.
The area where Fyrom is today were the occupied territories of Paionia and dardania.It was never part of ancient Macedonia as maitained by Fyrom.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paionia
The ancient Macedonian kingdoms in India,Pakistan,Afganistan had also had Greek identities and wee part of the geographical macedonia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavana_Kingdom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grece-Bastian_Kingdom.
To compare Alexander with Hitler is far fetched even for semi-illiterate people.Did he commit any genocide by any definition?
I guess the Greeks forgot they have Albanians and a few million of them too. I guess the Greeks are just as dumb as the Serbs by attacking Christians and the Albanians took Kosovo right under there nose. It looks like the Greeks will make the same mistake and lose in the end. Have another parade chanting you want to kill Albanians. I guess the Greeks want to kiss a little Albanian A** before they end up next. You Greeks are nothing more then thieves and spineless as always. Your occupation of Macedonia was a gift from the west as Kosovo was was gift from the west. Looks like the Balkans(Christians) will never learn to work together and let science and scholars teach the youth history and DNA test. DNA has solved millions of murders proven those guilty. Once again Greeks are not Macedonians as DNA has proven this at its funny how the Greeks keep there mouth shut when it comes to DNA test. You better hope the Turks don't come back bc you will be the first to suffer.
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
(Ian, UK, 30 October 2013 14:20)
You didn't have to cross the pond to make comparisons with evildoers. There's plenty of 'em on your side of the swamp.
(don't mess with Texas!!!!!!, 30 October 2013 22:56)
As to your point Fyrom is within geographic Macedonia so is Iran,India,Pakistan and all Alexander's colonies.Do their citizens have the right to be called macedonians?
(Leonidas, 30 October 2013 17:51)
Of course they can decide to call themselves whatever they want. If India were to decide tomorrow to change the name to Macedonia, what will poor Greece do?! Perhaps send a diplomatic note for opening name change negotiations to which Macedonia (formerly India) would reply "mind your own business"...
I don't deny what you're saying about the former Ottoman rule on present day Greece but the word 'former' means "having previously been a particular thing". I really don't care if you think the term 'former' is more applicable to other Balkan states.
"Alexander had started out as a crusader, to avenge the invasion and the destruction of the Greek Cities by various Persian rulers, but later had as his goal the extension of Hellenic ways of life throughout his empire.Around seventy cities were founded which were planned on the Greek pattern, with a market square, schools, offices, shops, temples, theatre and gymnasium ( not the kind of facilities the British empire provided to its subjects)."
What's next Leonidas, are you going to tell me that Hitler started off as a crusader trying right all the wrongs from the Treaty of Versailles? Are you going tell me all the good Hitler did from all the infrastructure he had built across his Empire aka Third Reich?
Iran, India and Pakistan ect aren't located in Geographic Macedonia therefore they aren't "Macedonians". Only people in the universally recognised geographic region of Macedonia have the right to use the denomyn "Macedonian" as they're from the region of Macedonia. Here is map of geographic Macedonia: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Macedonia_region_map_wikipedia.png
And according to you, I'm the ignorant one. What a joke!
is that the best you can come up with? i am familiar with both, one who claimed to be son of God (the definition of arrogance) who also said that the way to eternal life is through him and him only, another one who taught us the wisdom of inquisitive thinking and asking questions. sadly the modern greeks have forgotten those lessons, they have chosen Jesus instead. so much so that they define themselves as a state of the orthodox faith. yeah, you really for have much in common with humanistic hellenists like Epicurus, Socrates, Aristarchus, etal.
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
I totally agree with you Ian_uk.
Alexander was a misogynistic tyrant far worst then Hitler or anybody that we know of!!
Yea right Daniel, I'll bet, your going by numbers & statistics that the chauvinist Slavo-Macedonians have been trying to feed to everyone for all these years! All know very well, that the Slavo-Macedonians have been suppressing the figures, when it comes to the actual number of Albanian inhabitants that really exist in Macedonia! Your very low, 25% is a despicable joke! Reality is the number is much closer to 50+%!!! Its only a matter of time, for the real numbers to be finally revealed!
(Rocky, 30 October 2013 15:18)
Go complain to CIA factbook.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html
The grandfathers of the so-called Macedonians had no problem being Bulgarians prior to WW2 and the birth of SFRJ. It was Tito who forged the macedonian national identity because he wanted to remove the bulgarian influence on that territory. It's common truth that in the Balkans national identities can be manipulated very easily. Look at Montenegro for example. 20 years ago noone considered the Montenegrins as a different nation than the Serbs but now they have their own state, nationality and they even claim that the montenegrin language is distinct from serbian. The same goes for the so-called Macedonians. A Macedonian and a Bulgarian both speak the same language and they're actually the same people. Anyway i too think that the name dispute is insignificant and Greece is making a mistake for spending too much time on that issue, however i also think that the slav leaders of the neighboring country should take any offer Greece makes them because time is a luxury to them. The albanian population is rising in numbers while the slavic one is aging and decreasing. Pretty soon they'll have monuments of Alexander and Philip but they won't have a country. And then who are they gonna turn to? We and the Serbs don't like them that much so mother Bulgaria is their only option. And then we'll see all those die-hard Macedonians become Bulgarians overnight like their grandfathers and the wheel of history will have made a complete turn.
have i hit a nerve or something? you are so far removed from Socratic principles its not even funny. you have abandoned the teachings of Epicurus for Jesus and all that nonsense
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 13:44)
The funny thing is having an Albanian talking to a Greek about the teachings of Socrates.In fact Jesus and Socrates are similar in many ways.Both were teachers and taught what is right and wrong ,tried to enlighten people,share their knowledge with others and above all taught humility.In the end both became martyrs.But you wouldn't know all this,would you?
It seems to me that your favourite past-time is to continue with your ignorant comments on this and other sites.If you bothered to study a bit of Ottoman history you would've found that parts of Greece were occupied for less than half the time other Balkan places were.For example Crete,Peloponnese were occupied for less than 200 years whereas some of the Ionian Islands (Corfu)were never under the Ottomans.Therefore,the title of "former" is more applicable to other Balkan states.
The Greek position on the name dispute(to my consternation) has moved considerably in the last 20 years to the point that only a geographic qualifier is required in front of the name as an acceptable solution.But even this compromise has been thwarted by Fyrom on the grounds of infringing on their identity(what identity?).Therefore,the stalemate will continue for years to come.
Alexander had started out as a crusader, to avenge the invasion and the destruction of the Greek Cities by various Persian rulers, but later had as his goal the extension of Hellenic ways of life throughout his empire.Around seventy cities were founded which were planned on the Greek pattern, with a market square, schools, offices, shops, temples, theatre and gymnasium ( not the kind of facilities the British empire provided to its subjects).
As to your point Fyrom is within geographic Macedonia so is Iran,India,Pakistan and all Alexander's colonies.Do their citizens have the right to be called macedonians?
Rocky, where did you get your dream numbers of 50/60% of Albanians from?
(Daniel, 30 October 2013 )
Yea right Daniel, I'll bet, your going by numbers & statistics that the chauvinist Slavo-Macedonians have been trying to feed to everyone for all these years! All know very well, that the Slavo-Macedonians have been suppressing the figures, when it comes to the actual number of Albanian inhabitants that really exist in Macedonia! Your very low, 25% is a despicable joke! Reality is the number is much closer to 50+%!!! Its only a matter of time, for the real numbers to be finally revealed!
It is ridiculous because it will be instantly rejected. There is no chance in hell that the Republic of Macedonia will adopt that proposal. Adamantios Vassilakis is stupid for thinking that they might accept it dispute rejecting more reasonable proposals.
Greece is being very unreasonable in this dispute and I think everyone should recognise Greece as the 'former Ottoman Province of Hellas' so that Greece can have a taste of their own medicine and see if they like it.
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
At the end of the day the Republic of Macedonia is located in geographical Macedonia. Greece should name their province Aegean Macedonia and RoM should call their country Vadar Macedonia. This way it will distinguish which part of Macedonia they're referring to.
As Albanian from Kosovo, I naturally support the fact thet the proposal recognizes Albanian in Macedonia, however, I dont believe the Macedonian Gov't will agree to this proposal. Eventually they have no choice but to agree due to the change in demographic (Albanians population increase/Macedonia population decrease). I know it is not a great solution but the more time passes the better chance for a solution, so we should wait.
have i hit a nerve or something? you are so far removed from Socratic principles its not even funny. you have abandoned the teachings of Epicurus for Jesus and all that nonsense
that should pacify the alleged hellenists
(Nikolle, 29 October 2013 23:53)
Anyone with a pea historical brain will know that the "alleged Hellenists" can produce a record of historical continuity from the ancient to modern era.Can the same be said for the "Illyrian imposters"?
As for Leonides.. just do an DNA test and you will see that you have Bulgarian DNA.. not sure what the drama is.. just move on! be proud that the modern Greek is a human version of Macedonia! a mix bag of ethnic groups
(Bulgar Of Ohrid, 30 October 2013 00:03)
The essence of your comment surpasses by miles the usual nationalistic nonsense aired by Albanian posters.Indeed,the Greeks emigrated to another planet! Cheap Bulgarian propaganda.
I would recommend to you to stop visiting sites like the poisonous Maknews and Mina and instead visit well known public libraries and I am certain you will find who you really are.
When Greece, willingly & voluntary proposes this solution for Macedonia with a 50-60% Albanian population, then surly Greece is prepared to recognize Kosova, Which has a 95% Albanian population! Greece has long ago, sensed that this process, of a reunified Albanian state is inevitable! With some hard-heads, you must get to the point bluntly!!!
It is precisely people like you, immigrants from skopje who hide behind an identity like "eu citizen" whose limited intelligence and large ignorance leads them to make such ridiculous statements
Things are clear - the US and the EU have noted that it is Skopje's extremism and detachment from reality that is causing problems. You better look again at the table and see who is better positioned in this negotiation. If this is not in line with what you would like to hear then you better go back to skopje, because in fact the EU had enough of you and your prime minister.
But in fairness, skopje is not a real country. Skopje should be dismantled to 2 pieces and be given to teo countries: Albania and Bulgaria and this is the end of the story. You have no history, no identity. You better go back to those who actually have something like this. Albania and Bulgaria is your future. You better get used to it fake eu citizen, just like your fake country.
Albanians should break free from Skopje. They have their own language, their own people and they possess territory. They should be integrated to Kosovo.
The rest of Skopje can either remain as it is (half territory, half population) or be integrated to Bulgaria. No one really cares about them anyway.
Hang on, FYROM's make up is changing, and it will predominantly Albanian soon. I stand by Greeks. But also don't want that Albanians use the word Slavic to name their newest country. If they want to be called Macedonia, they should give back the land to Greeks. Better to live under Greece (as they are trying so hard to steal the identity) than Albania, I'm sure. I completely understand Greece. FYROM has serious crisis of identity, stealing someone's past, trying to create new Orthodox church, that the rest of us do not recognize. Chill out bros from FYROM, you'll soon be part of Albania, and you'll get your new religion- Islam.
this is true Balkan (Greek)idiocy, thank you very much...
(roberto, 29 October 2013 20:44)
g'dang little tree feller, I thought you done died and went to hades by now.
Lol
Macedonia is just Macedonia, Yea some part is in Greece that only for the first time acquired in 1912!
Macedonia was always there where it is now.
Slavic means Glorious and is not a name for a people..
Caltic also means glorious btw
It's just means that a group of people (major part of present day Europeans) accomplished something great in the ancient past hence that name.
Byzantine province Hellas (present day southern Greece was slaviziced in the 10th C according to the Byzantines.
Furthermore In the Ottoman empire everyone who was Orthodox Christian was counted to be a Greek as Muslim was a synonym to Turk.
And the so called Slavic migrations is total BS!
Because if we believe that suddenly Slavs came to Germany/Balkans/Central Europe/Russia in that short period out of somewhere, yea right..
Imagine this, Romans conquer, Macedonia and the balkan region, would you expect the people to be enslaved or would the flee across the rivers to the north (present day Ukraine/Poland/Russia)
They just came back to reclaim their lands.
But hey anyway we live no here the past is the past and the future is the future.
Focus on now, what the real history was we can only guess history that we learn is build up with lies or let's say not the full truth of things that happened out of interest of powerful people at that time and because the winner writes his story.
(Ron, 29 October 2013 20:30)
I agree 100% with Ron for the first time in history which all most makes me afraid to go to bed tonight as the world may end. Macedonia had that name as a republic of Yugoslavia, so what is the problem. But I also agree with the name Republic of Northern Macedonia. But it seems like Greece is just being a butthole.
The french named a salad after macedonia, due to its mixed races...
The name is fitting, even though my Bulgarian brothers have lost their way ethnically due to years of Turkish/Serbian/Communist rule.. Macedonia is fine.. its just a place called Macedonia with many different ethnic groups residing.. always have been and always will..
As for Leonides.. just do an DNA test and you will see that you have Bulgarian DNA.. not sure what the drama is.. just move on! be proud that the modern Greek is a human version of Macedonia! a mix bag of ethnic groups
What the Greeks have been doing is ridiculous, kindergarden stuff. For a while it was slighlty understandable, under the rubric "might is right," but now with the failure and exposure of their economic and social weakness you'd think they would come down of their high horse.
===============================
So Albi, you also agree with the might is right policy then.
What happened to right is right not might is right?
How about just eliminating one letter? Acedonia. That would sit well with Alexander the Great since Alex in FYROM is "Ace", (pronounced Atse), the Albanians would be happy because it ends with the letter "a" , and even the Italians would be satisfied as it would be easy for them to say it.
I could not agree less with anyone. This Greek proposal is stupid (sorry, but this REALL is stupid).
Just call the country Macedonia? Yes? Any problems? No, thank you and move on please!
What the Greeks have been doing is ridiculous, kindergarden stuff. For a while it was slighlty understandable, under the rubric "might is right," but now with the failure and exposure of their economic and social weakness you'd think they would come down of their high horse. You'd think they would their house in order and fix their own economy, instead of trying to add to the burden of others.
I think Albanians need to get involved more forcefully in this vis-a-vis Greece, and coordinate together with Macedonians, you know, the Slavic ones, and with the Bulgarians and everybody else. For the sake of peace and coexistence in the Balkans. Let Macedonia be, as is, no threats to it, no threats from it. What's the problem with that??
Greece's position is totally unacceptable.
The EU should take a leaf from the Greek government's book and demand that Greece be called "The Former Turkish Prefectures which consituted Greece". Why not? - Let's see how they like it!
Instead of making trouble for other countries, the Greeks would be better off putting their house in order - as a EU citizen I object to my taxes being used to "prop up" a country which cannot get its economy in order. I, like many EU citizens have had enough of Greek nationalism and Greek nationalists. If Greece is so perfect then it should leave the EU.
That you consider it "ridiculous" only reveals that you have very little insight into the historic volatility of the Balkans, where "ridiculous" issues like usurping a neighbour's historic name and cultural symbols, and disseminating maps showing northern Greece and Thessaloniki as a part of a "greater" FYROM tend to incite bloody ethnic conflict.
What is really ridiculous is Fyrom's attempt attempt in the year 2013 AD to claim ethnic exclusivity to people 2500 years ago ,what is even more ludicrous though is naming a country after a name that they have no historic connection to given the ethnic composition of Fyrom ,the fact their ancestors arrived there about 1000 years after the Macedonians and secondly not living within the boundaries of what was ancient Macedonia.
Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic.We simply object to total usurpation of a historical and geographical name that is the same as our largest province.Greece has made an offer to Fyrom of adding a geographical qualifier to the name in order to settle the dispute which has been rejected on every occasion( former communists have their own agendas) .I still can't see why a geographic determinant qualifies as " nationalism"
The above name implies the Macedonia belongs to only Slavic and Albanian nations. It should include all citizens of Macedonia, regardless of the nationality, faith or beleive. Period. "Divide and Conquer" will not work this time.
"The Greek negotiator in the decades-long dispute over the name of Macedonia has put forward a proposal to call the country "the Slavic-Albanian Macedonia." "
A fair proposal, I would say. Taking into account the demographic make-up of Macedonia, it seems that Albanians are steadily increasing in terms of numbers due to the high birth-rate. At the very same time, Macedonian population is already aged. It's a matter of time when Macedonians will be greatly outnumbered by the Albanians. So its political status must be redefined in line with the new trends. The state's name should have something that represent even the Albanians, who in the near future would be the real owners of that land.
A fair proposal, I would say. Taking into account the demographic make-up of Macedonia, it seems that Albanians are steadily increasing in terms of numbers due to the high birth-rate. At the very same time, Macedonian population is already aged. It's a matter of time when Macedonians will be greatly outnumbered by the Albanians. So its political status must be redefined in line with the new trends. The state's name should have something that represent even the Albanians, who in the near future would be the real owners of that land.
"The Greek negotiator in the decades-long dispute over the name of Macedonia has put forward a proposal to call the country "the Slavic-Albanian Macedonia." "
That you consider it "ridiculous" only reveals that you have very little insight into the historic volatility of the Balkans, where "ridiculous" issues like usurping a neighbour's historic name and cultural symbols, and disseminating maps showing northern Greece and Thessaloniki as a part of a "greater" FYROM tend to incite bloody ethnic conflict.
What is really ridiculous is Fyrom's attempt attempt in the year 2013 AD to claim ethnic exclusivity to people 2500 years ago ,what is even more ludicrous though is naming a country after a name that they have no historic connection to given the ethnic composition of Fyrom ,the fact their ancestors arrived there about 1000 years after the Macedonians and secondly not living within the boundaries of what was ancient Macedonia.
Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic.We simply object to total usurpation of a historical and geographical name that is the same as our largest province.Greece has made an offer to Fyrom of adding a geographical qualifier to the name in order to settle the dispute which has been rejected on every occasion( former communists have their own agendas) .I still can't see why a geographic determinant qualifies as " nationalism"
Albanians should break free from Skopje. They have their own language, their own people and they possess territory. They should be integrated to Kosovo.
The rest of Skopje can either remain as it is (half territory, half population) or be integrated to Bulgaria. No one really cares about them anyway.
The above name implies the Macedonia belongs to only Slavic and Albanian nations. It should include all citizens of Macedonia, regardless of the nationality, faith or beleive. Period. "Divide and Conquer" will not work this time.
It is precisely people like you, immigrants from skopje who hide behind an identity like "eu citizen" whose limited intelligence and large ignorance leads them to make such ridiculous statements
Things are clear - the US and the EU have noted that it is Skopje's extremism and detachment from reality that is causing problems. You better look again at the table and see who is better positioned in this negotiation. If this is not in line with what you would like to hear then you better go back to skopje, because in fact the EU had enough of you and your prime minister.
But in fairness, skopje is not a real country. Skopje should be dismantled to 2 pieces and be given to teo countries: Albania and Bulgaria and this is the end of the story. You have no history, no identity. You better go back to those who actually have something like this. Albania and Bulgaria is your future. You better get used to it fake eu citizen, just like your fake country.
Greece's position is totally unacceptable.
The EU should take a leaf from the Greek government's book and demand that Greece be called "The Former Turkish Prefectures which consituted Greece". Why not? - Let's see how they like it!
Instead of making trouble for other countries, the Greeks would be better off putting their house in order - as a EU citizen I object to my taxes being used to "prop up" a country which cannot get its economy in order. I, like many EU citizens have had enough of Greek nationalism and Greek nationalists. If Greece is so perfect then it should leave the EU.
Hang on, FYROM's make up is changing, and it will predominantly Albanian soon. I stand by Greeks. But also don't want that Albanians use the word Slavic to name their newest country. If they want to be called Macedonia, they should give back the land to Greeks. Better to live under Greece (as they are trying so hard to steal the identity) than Albania, I'm sure. I completely understand Greece. FYROM has serious crisis of identity, stealing someone's past, trying to create new Orthodox church, that the rest of us do not recognize. Chill out bros from FYROM, you'll soon be part of Albania, and you'll get your new religion- Islam.
Rocky, where did you get your dream numbers of 50/60% of Albanians from?
(Daniel, 30 October 2013 )
Yea right Daniel, I'll bet, your going by numbers & statistics that the chauvinist Slavo-Macedonians have been trying to feed to everyone for all these years! All know very well, that the Slavo-Macedonians have been suppressing the figures, when it comes to the actual number of Albanian inhabitants that really exist in Macedonia! Your very low, 25% is a despicable joke! Reality is the number is much closer to 50+%!!! Its only a matter of time, for the real numbers to be finally revealed!
The grandfathers of the so-called Macedonians had no problem being Bulgarians prior to WW2 and the birth of SFRJ. It was Tito who forged the macedonian national identity because he wanted to remove the bulgarian influence on that territory. It's common truth that in the Balkans national identities can be manipulated very easily. Look at Montenegro for example. 20 years ago noone considered the Montenegrins as a different nation than the Serbs but now they have their own state, nationality and they even claim that the montenegrin language is distinct from serbian. The same goes for the so-called Macedonians. A Macedonian and a Bulgarian both speak the same language and they're actually the same people. Anyway i too think that the name dispute is insignificant and Greece is making a mistake for spending too much time on that issue, however i also think that the slav leaders of the neighboring country should take any offer Greece makes them because time is a luxury to them. The albanian population is rising in numbers while the slavic one is aging and decreasing. Pretty soon they'll have monuments of Alexander and Philip but they won't have a country. And then who are they gonna turn to? We and the Serbs don't like them that much so mother Bulgaria is their only option. And then we'll see all those die-hard Macedonians become Bulgarians overnight like their grandfathers and the wheel of history will have made a complete turn.
When Greece, willingly & voluntary proposes this solution for Macedonia with a 50-60% Albanian population, then surly Greece is prepared to recognize Kosova, Which has a 95% Albanian population! Greece has long ago, sensed that this process, of a reunified Albanian state is inevitable! With some hard-heads, you must get to the point bluntly!!!
that should pacify the alleged hellenists
(Nikolle, 29 October 2013 23:53)
Anyone with a pea historical brain will know that the "alleged Hellenists" can produce a record of historical continuity from the ancient to modern era.Can the same be said for the "Illyrian imposters"?
Contrary to your usual ignorant comments the majority of British classical historians ( Tom Holland,Robin Lane Fox)amongst others take the view that had Alexander been defeated by the Persians and Greek states annihilated, the Western democracy, culture, art and philosophy that developed from this period in history might have been lost, and the Western world today could be very different.Read Tom Holland's "Persian Fire" or Robin Lane Fox's "Classical Greece" to open your eyes.
The area where Fyrom is today were the occupied territories of Paionia and dardania.It was never part of ancient Macedonia as maitained by Fyrom.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paionia
The ancient Macedonian kingdoms in India,Pakistan,Afganistan had also had Greek identities and wee part of the geographical macedonia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavana_Kingdom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grece-Bastian_Kingdom.
To compare Alexander with Hitler is far fetched even for semi-illiterate people.Did he commit any genocide by any definition?
I disagree with you my friend. History is a science and as a science it has its methodology and sources. You claim that the Greeks in southern Albania are immigrants. So where did they come from, when did this migration take place and which historian mentions it? We can all make all sorts of claims but there are claims which are based on historic facts and claims that are totally arbitrary. Not all claims have the same value. There is the historic truth and in order to find it all you have to do is open the books and resort to the sources.
As for the second part of your comment and your assertion that Greece is worried about the creation of a third albanian controlled state in western FYROM i can assure you that noone in Greece will be too displeased if that country falls apart. On the contrary we think that such a development is unavoidable. The eastern part will be united with Bulgaria since the slavic population is mainly bulgarian while the western part will more probably be attached to Kosovo and not Albania. I don't think that the Albanians have enough internal cohesion in order to form one big albanian state. I know you ain't gonna admit that but that's my opinion and i think i'm right.
As for peace and prosperity in the Balkans Greece is the only country that invested money and effort towards that direction but we didn't get a response from our neighbors. They chose their ridiculous nationalisms and tried to roar like lions even though they were mice.
I could not agree less with anyone. This Greek proposal is stupid (sorry, but this REALL is stupid).
Just call the country Macedonia? Yes? Any problems? No, thank you and move on please!
The french named a salad after macedonia, due to its mixed races...
The name is fitting, even though my Bulgarian brothers have lost their way ethnically due to years of Turkish/Serbian/Communist rule.. Macedonia is fine.. its just a place called Macedonia with many different ethnic groups residing.. always have been and always will..
As for Leonides.. just do an DNA test and you will see that you have Bulgarian DNA.. not sure what the drama is.. just move on! be proud that the modern Greek is a human version of Macedonia! a mix bag of ethnic groups
As for Leonides.. just do an DNA test and you will see that you have Bulgarian DNA.. not sure what the drama is.. just move on! be proud that the modern Greek is a human version of Macedonia! a mix bag of ethnic groups
(Bulgar Of Ohrid, 30 October 2013 00:03)
The essence of your comment surpasses by miles the usual nationalistic nonsense aired by Albanian posters.Indeed,the Greeks emigrated to another planet! Cheap Bulgarian propaganda.
I would recommend to you to stop visiting sites like the poisonous Maknews and Mina and instead visit well known public libraries and I am certain you will find who you really are.
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Sorry but we had a census in 2011 and no "indigenous Albanians" were found in Greece. The next census is in 2021 but don't lose faith. By then hopefully some "indigenous Albanians" will have grown from the ground.
How about just eliminating one letter? Acedonia. That would sit well with Alexander the Great since Alex in FYROM is "Ace", (pronounced Atse), the Albanians would be happy because it ends with the letter "a" , and even the Italians would be satisfied as it would be easy for them to say it.
What the Greeks have been doing is ridiculous, kindergarden stuff. For a while it was slighlty understandable, under the rubric "might is right," but now with the failure and exposure of their economic and social weakness you'd think they would come down of their high horse. You'd think they would their house in order and fix their own economy, instead of trying to add to the burden of others.
I think Albanians need to get involved more forcefully in this vis-a-vis Greece, and coordinate together with Macedonians, you know, the Slavic ones, and with the Bulgarians and everybody else. For the sake of peace and coexistence in the Balkans. Let Macedonia be, as is, no threats to it, no threats from it. What's the problem with that??
It is ridiculous because it will be instantly rejected. There is no chance in hell that the Republic of Macedonia will adopt that proposal. Adamantios Vassilakis is stupid for thinking that they might accept it dispute rejecting more reasonable proposals.
Greece is being very unreasonable in this dispute and I think everyone should recognise Greece as the 'former Ottoman Province of Hellas' so that Greece can have a taste of their own medicine and see if they like it.
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
At the end of the day the Republic of Macedonia is located in geographical Macedonia. Greece should name their province Aegean Macedonia and RoM should call their country Vadar Macedonia. This way it will distinguish which part of Macedonia they're referring to.
It seems to me that your favourite past-time is to continue with your ignorant comments on this and other sites.If you bothered to study a bit of Ottoman history you would've found that parts of Greece were occupied for less than half the time other Balkan places were.For example Crete,Peloponnese were occupied for less than 200 years whereas some of the Ionian Islands (Corfu)were never under the Ottomans.Therefore,the title of "former" is more applicable to other Balkan states.
The Greek position on the name dispute(to my consternation) has moved considerably in the last 20 years to the point that only a geographic qualifier is required in front of the name as an acceptable solution.But even this compromise has been thwarted by Fyrom on the grounds of infringing on their identity(what identity?).Therefore,the stalemate will continue for years to come.
Alexander had started out as a crusader, to avenge the invasion and the destruction of the Greek Cities by various Persian rulers, but later had as his goal the extension of Hellenic ways of life throughout his empire.Around seventy cities were founded which were planned on the Greek pattern, with a market square, schools, offices, shops, temples, theatre and gymnasium ( not the kind of facilities the British empire provided to its subjects).
As to your point Fyrom is within geographic Macedonia so is Iran,India,Pakistan and all Alexander's colonies.Do their citizens have the right to be called macedonians?
so much for your anti-imperialsit leanings eh Leonidas? some Empires are OK right?
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 23:57)
The title of pro-imperialist crusader belongs to you and your fellow Albanians that never lose the opportunity to cheer the likes of war criminals Clinton,Bush ,Blair and Obama who have slaughtered millions in their imperialistic wars against Iraq,Afganistan and Libya in the last few years.I do recall your postings being animated against people who were against Western intervention in Syria.Enjoy your ANTI-IMPERIALISM.
to get back on track now, there is no doubt that the attempt to create a Macedonian identity linked to the ancient ones are nothing but laughable. its well known that the current Maceodnians are Slavs and hence this connection to Alexander and Philip is fictional. this though doesn't mean that Greece should dictate what the name of the country should be. i don't see why Macedonia cannot be called Macedonia. its only a name, it represents no threat to Greece, either militarily or culturally.
What the Greeks have been doing is ridiculous, kindergarden stuff. For a while it was slighlty understandable, under the rubric "might is right," but now with the failure and exposure of their economic and social weakness you'd think they would come down of their high horse.
===============================
So Albi, you also agree with the might is right policy then.
What happened to right is right not might is right?
(Ron, 29 October 2013 20:30)
I agree 100% with Ron for the first time in history which all most makes me afraid to go to bed tonight as the world may end. Macedonia had that name as a republic of Yugoslavia, so what is the problem. But I also agree with the name Republic of Northern Macedonia. But it seems like Greece is just being a butthole.
excuse me, but you just here described Alexander The Great's campaigns in romantic terms, you even said he wanted to extend the Hellenistic way of life. and where did he extend that into? into parts of the world that weren't greek right? thats imperialism, but for one reason or another, in your eyes, thats good imperialism.
(Nikolle, 31 October 2013 11:14)
No I didn't. What I said is Alexander's prime reason for his expedition in Asia was to deal with the Persian menace once and for all.This is also confirmed by the number of plots and mutinies by his generals and soldiers who wanted to return back to Greece.
Having done that then he decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between East and West and exposed those vast areas to Greek civilization and influence.Some of the cities he founded became major cultural centres ( Alexandria), many surviving into the 21st century.The huge difference between Alexander's wars and modern definition of imperialism the former was in defence of your country whereas the latter is in pursuit of profits by killing and subjugating people.
have i hit a nerve or something? you are so far removed from Socratic principles its not even funny. you have abandoned the teachings of Epicurus for Jesus and all that nonsense
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 13:44)
The funny thing is having an Albanian talking to a Greek about the teachings of Socrates.In fact Jesus and Socrates are similar in many ways.Both were teachers and taught what is right and wrong ,tried to enlighten people,share their knowledge with others and above all taught humility.In the end both became martyrs.But you wouldn't know all this,would you?
another one who taught us the wisdom of inquisitive thinking and asking questions. sadly the modern greeks have forgotten those lessons, they have chosen Jesus instead. so much so that they define themselves as a state of the orthodox faith. yeah, you really for have much in common with humanistic hellenists like Epicurus, Socrates, Aristarchus, etal.
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 23:43)
Throwing few ancient Greek names at me doesn't grant you the title of being of a wisdom inquisitive person.On the contrary the overwhelming majority of Albanians are just sheeple and ready to oblige at anyone throwing few crumbs at them.Just take a look at yourself and your actions and see whether you've got any humanity in you before you start questioning others.If modern people were following the teachings of Jesus the world would've been a better place.
The Albanians in Greece are immigrants like they are in Italy,Germany or Switzerland whereas in your country are autochthonous thus the 2001 Ohrid agreement which confirms their position.I am not sure what is their present size but what I know is your government has cancelled the planned census out of fear that it would confirm higher numbers for the Albanians.Instead of being concerned about Greece you should be concerned about Fyrom and on present trends in few years you'll be toast.
Greeks and Serbs habitualy exagerate their minorities count when its in their interest and automaticly either undercount or even deny outright their actual existance as the Greeks do with The Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares occupied by Greece.
So how many are those Chams, Arvanites and "other indigenous shqiptares" who live in the greek occupied albanian lands? Can you give me a number or a rough estimate? And by the way the Arvanites came to Greece in the 14th century and noone denies that but i guess that the word indigenous has a different meaning in the albanian language than in any other language of the world.
Thanasis,
Fair enough we do not have to agree. My point is that no matter what facts we use, it's very difficult to convice each other. Establishing positions of superiority for our nations in these discourse doesn't help neither.
As far as Macedonian Albanians, you might not be aware , but they speak a dialect of Albanian language spoken in southeastern Albania. Also the first conference of Albanian language was held in Manastiri in Macedonia. It's true that there is a certain distance created between Albanians due to past physical distance. But with the new highways connecting Tirana-Prishtina-Skopje, things have started to change fast. There is also unified education programs, increase in trade and cultural exchanges. Bottom line, as our world renown writer Ismail Kadare says, there have never been in modern history more Albanian living in relative freedom. And I believe that this will be good for the Balkans.
have i hit a nerve or something? you are so far removed from Socratic principles its not even funny. you have abandoned the teachings of Epicurus for Jesus and all that nonsense
As Albanian from Kosovo, I naturally support the fact thet the proposal recognizes Albanian in Macedonia, however, I dont believe the Macedonian Gov't will agree to this proposal. Eventually they have no choice but to agree due to the change in demographic (Albanians population increase/Macedonia population decrease). I know it is not a great solution but the more time passes the better chance for a solution, so we should wait.
I don't deny what you're saying about the former Ottoman rule on present day Greece but the word 'former' means "having previously been a particular thing". I really don't care if you think the term 'former' is more applicable to other Balkan states.
"Alexander had started out as a crusader, to avenge the invasion and the destruction of the Greek Cities by various Persian rulers, but later had as his goal the extension of Hellenic ways of life throughout his empire.Around seventy cities were founded which were planned on the Greek pattern, with a market square, schools, offices, shops, temples, theatre and gymnasium ( not the kind of facilities the British empire provided to its subjects)."
What's next Leonidas, are you going to tell me that Hitler started off as a crusader trying right all the wrongs from the Treaty of Versailles? Are you going tell me all the good Hitler did from all the infrastructure he had built across his Empire aka Third Reich?
Iran, India and Pakistan ect aren't located in Geographic Macedonia therefore they aren't "Macedonians". Only people in the universally recognised geographic region of Macedonia have the right to use the denomyn "Macedonian" as they're from the region of Macedonia. Here is map of geographic Macedonia: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Macedonia_region_map_wikipedia.png
And according to you, I'm the ignorant one. What a joke!
hahaha, what a funny proposal. I think Greece should be called "Greek-Albanian-Vlacho-Slavo-Turko Greece".
Out of all people, Greeks should not even get that conversation started. Even the first king of Greece, Otto in 1832, acknowledged that most of the population within his Greek republic actually spoke Albanian! Greece is a romantic Western European creation.
Lol
Macedonia is just Macedonia, Yea some part is in Greece that only for the first time acquired in 1912!
Macedonia was always there where it is now.
Slavic means Glorious and is not a name for a people..
Caltic also means glorious btw
It's just means that a group of people (major part of present day Europeans) accomplished something great in the ancient past hence that name.
Byzantine province Hellas (present day southern Greece was slaviziced in the 10th C according to the Byzantines.
Furthermore In the Ottoman empire everyone who was Orthodox Christian was counted to be a Greek as Muslim was a synonym to Turk.
And the so called Slavic migrations is total BS!
Because if we believe that suddenly Slavs came to Germany/Balkans/Central Europe/Russia in that short period out of somewhere, yea right..
Imagine this, Romans conquer, Macedonia and the balkan region, would you expect the people to be enslaved or would the flee across the rivers to the north (present day Ukraine/Poland/Russia)
They just came back to reclaim their lands.
But hey anyway we live no here the past is the past and the future is the future.
Focus on now, what the real history was we can only guess history that we learn is build up with lies or let's say not the full truth of things that happened out of interest of powerful people at that time and because the winner writes his story.
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
I totally agree with you Ian_uk.
Alexander was a misogynistic tyrant far worst then Hitler or anybody that we know of!!
excuse me, but you just here described Alexander The Great's campaigns in romantic terms, you even said he wanted to extend the Hellenistic way of life. and where did he extend that into? into parts of the world that weren't greek right? thats imperialism, but for one reason or another, in your eyes, thats good imperialism.
Can someone answer me why there are over 1 million ethnic Macedonians in Thessaloniki that claim to be tied to Skopje and the old Macedonia? the Macedonian movement is starting for the return of solun to Macedonia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28ptQb1ack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2AdHSNaIok
original Macedonians in Greece celebrating the Macedonian uprising
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EusJKOcyJAU
and didn't Iraklis FC want to join their home nation and play in the Macedonian football league
http://macedoniadaily.blogspot.com.au/2010/06/greek-football-club-to-play-in.html
this is true Balkan (Greek)idiocy, thank you very much...
(roberto, 29 October 2013 20:44)
g'dang little tree feller, I thought you done died and went to hades by now.
Yea right Daniel, I'll bet, your going by numbers & statistics that the chauvinist Slavo-Macedonians have been trying to feed to everyone for all these years! All know very well, that the Slavo-Macedonians have been suppressing the figures, when it comes to the actual number of Albanian inhabitants that really exist in Macedonia! Your very low, 25% is a despicable joke! Reality is the number is much closer to 50+%!!! Its only a matter of time, for the real numbers to be finally revealed!
(Rocky, 30 October 2013 15:18)
Go complain to CIA factbook.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html
oh dear, Alexandra was a true humanist! you used the phrase expand the hellenic way of life, not defend the hellenic way of life. once the persians were defeated, he went on into other parts, but i get it now, his primary reason was to trade, not to conquer. yes, that is not imperialism, thats just opening borders
Where did this one come from? Oh I see, because I misspelled Alexander's name. It matters not one iota to me if he was a homosexual, it seems to matter to you though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought him fathering children into it.
is that the best you can come up with? i am familiar with both, one who claimed to be son of God (the definition of arrogance) who also said that the way to eternal life is through him and him only, another one who taught us the wisdom of inquisitive thinking and asking questions. sadly the modern greeks have forgotten those lessons, they have chosen Jesus instead. so much so that they define themselves as a state of the orthodox faith. yeah, you really for have much in common with humanistic hellenists like Epicurus, Socrates, Aristarchus, etal.
As to your point Fyrom is within geographic Macedonia so is Iran,India,Pakistan and all Alexander's colonies.Do their citizens have the right to be called macedonians?
(Leonidas, 30 October 2013 17:51)
Of course they can decide to call themselves whatever they want. If India were to decide tomorrow to change the name to Macedonia, what will poor Greece do?! Perhaps send a diplomatic note for opening name change negotiations to which Macedonia (formerly India) would reply "mind your own business"...
I guess the Greeks forgot they have Albanians and a few million of them too. I guess the Greeks are just as dumb as the Serbs by attacking Christians and the Albanians took Kosovo right under there nose. It looks like the Greeks will make the same mistake and lose in the end. Have another parade chanting you want to kill Albanians. I guess the Greeks want to kiss a little Albanian A** before they end up next. You Greeks are nothing more then thieves and spineless as always. Your occupation of Macedonia was a gift from the west as Kosovo was was gift from the west. Looks like the Balkans(Christians) will never learn to work together and let science and scholars teach the youth history and DNA test. DNA has solved millions of murders proven those guilty. Once again Greeks are not Macedonians as DNA has proven this at its funny how the Greeks keep there mouth shut when it comes to DNA test. You better hope the Turks don't come back bc you will be the first to suffer.
Daniel this might surprise you but the CIA Factbook doesn't actually go into countries conducting independent CENSUS.
The information you get is partialy supplied from subject countries and CIA is usualy into providing disinformation......
For example the Greek minority in Albania number 60,000 but Athens claims 600,000,
Just like Serbs...... they love to exaggerate their true body count when it clearly suites them.
Greeks and Serbs habitualy exagerate their minorities count when its in their interest and automaticly either undercount or even deny outright their actual existance as the Greeks do with The Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares occupied by Greece.
The CIA Factbook is the Agency's best "GUESS-TIMATE".
".If modern people were following the teachings of Jesus the world would've been a better place."
yep, and if we have states (ala Greece) that constitutionally define themselves as part of that faith, then you have bigotry, racism and Leonidas, none of which, are good ideas. Greeks should go back to the teachings of Epicurus and not bow to their priests all the time
Thanasis,
You state that Arvanitis are emigrants, we state Greeks of South Albania are emigrants. You can never find the truth, especially because both parties believe are right. The truth in case of Macedonia is that Greece is worried about a potential third Albanian controled state, 50 years down the road and the implications that come with it. Slav Macedonians somehow don't get it, and believe it's about them. But wasting money building monuments and building doesn't buy you neither history neither demography. I would hope I am wrong and Balkan countries get out of primitive status of perpetual fighting for someone elses land , but so far I am not sure. At the end of the day it doesn't matter whom came first where. We are here breathing , with God given right to live our lifes and persue our happiness. And I mean all of us.....
Mr. Thanasis you ask a very good question " so how many Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares are their".
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Greece must first ackowledge non ethnic indigenous inhabitants existed before Greek independence.
Shqiptare native were unjusted ethnicly cleansed,suffered Genocide and illegaly had property taken from them.
They don't even have the right to return,even as Greek citizens...
And yet they "invented Democracy" and what not.
EU needs to monitor and re evaluate Greek membership qualifications.
Mr. Thanasis you ask a very good question " so how many Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares are their".
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Greece must first ackowledge non ethnic indigenous inhabitants existed before Greek independence.
Shqiptare native were unjusted ethnicly cleansed,suffered Genocide and illegaly had property taken from them.
They don't even have the right to return,even as Greek citizens...
And yet they "invented Democracy" and what not.
EU needs to monitor and re evaluate Greek membership qualifications.
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
(Ian, UK, 30 October 2013 14:20)
You didn't have to cross the pond to make comparisons with evildoers. There's plenty of 'em on your side of the swamp.
(don't mess with Texas!!!!!!, 30 October 2013 22:56)
".I do recall your postings being animated against people who were against Western intervention in Syria"
did not see this one. lets see, 100000 dead in Syria thus far, and counting, and yet people believe that doing nothing is better than doing something. The World didn't intervene in Rwanda either, it left them do deal with their own problems, was that good do you think?
What I said is Alexander's prime reason for his expedition in Asia was to deal with the Persian menace once and for all.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
Well, that's precisely what Bush said, as well... He attacked Afghanistan to deal with the Al-Qaeda menace once and for all.
----------
Having done that then he decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between East and West and exposed those vast areas to Greek civilization and influence.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
exactly, that's what Bush did as well... He decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between America and Iraq and exposing those vast areas to democracy and influence.
----------
The huge difference between Alexander's wars and modern definition of imperialism the former was in defence of your country whereas the latter is in pursuit of profits by killing and subjugating people.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
The explanation you gave showed that there is no difference at all since modern imperialism (like Bush's one) was in defence of Bush's country, as well, unless, of course, you don't consider as imperialism what Bush did.
And Albania is a donation by Italy and Austria. You wanna go down that road? At least we bastards fought for our freedom and independence. When and where exactly did you pure-blooded Illyrians fight in order to become free? Oh i forgot you didn't.
thanasis
so you don't dispute you are a created state?
then I guess Macedonia is Macedonia and Greece is starting trouble as usual.
from someone looking in with no ties to either countries it looks very bad and stupid for Greece to stamp authority in the region while they are bankrupt, Germany could easily shut Greece down and hand back the north to Macedonia, the west to Albania and the south to Turkey.
I think the Greeks should tread very carefully and settle down a touch.
Genome mapping tells us who from what, as far as I am concerned people can call themselves whatever the hell they want, but that doesn't make it so. If someone wants to pretend they are egyptian that is fine, if someone wants to pretend they are Macedonian I don't see why not. If some man wants to dress up and pretend he is Napoleon or a woman, what do I care? You can call yourself whatever you want just as long as you don't try to make me recognize your nonsense. So the solution I think is no solution - let them call themselves Macedonians and let the Greeks call them something else entirely. Meanwhile lets rebuild the economy and economic co-operation for regular people who don't care about politics so that we can have this argument when every kid is fed, pensioners are well taken care of, and we are a little wealthier
I am appalled to know that in the 21st century we are disputing ancient ancient information .
When Yugoslavia split, each and every republic was recognized for the republic they were always known as when it was once Yugoslavia.
If all the other republics can be recognized then The republic of Macedonia should be no different.
I am shocked and appalled to know that racism still exists in this day and age.
Greece is Greece and Serbia is Serbia , Croatia is Croatia . Therefore , Macedonia is Macedonia .
To make up a name for a country to please another country is sadly disappointing . It's like asking Greece to change there name to Turkish Greece . How silly in this day and age .
Your referring to people not boarding game naming .
Let history stay in the past , learn to accept and respect one another for who we are today .
Racism is taught , we are not born to be racists.
Denying someone's true identity is stripping them of there rights .
How sad :( .
Truly disappointed and astonished ,
21st Century Canadian Macedonian
A fair proposal, I would say. Taking into account the demographic make-up of Macedonia, it seems that Albanians are steadily increasing in terms of numbers due to the high birth-rate. At the very same time, Macedonian population is already aged. It's a matter of time when Macedonians will be greatly outnumbered by the Albanians. So its political status must be redefined in line with the new trends. The state's name should have something that represent even the Albanians, who in the near future would be the real owners of that land.
"The Greek negotiator in the decades-long dispute over the name of Macedonia has put forward a proposal to call the country "the Slavic-Albanian Macedonia." "
Greece's position is totally unacceptable.
The EU should take a leaf from the Greek government's book and demand that Greece be called "The Former Turkish Prefectures which consituted Greece". Why not? - Let's see how they like it!
Instead of making trouble for other countries, the Greeks would be better off putting their house in order - as a EU citizen I object to my taxes being used to "prop up" a country which cannot get its economy in order. I, like many EU citizens have had enough of Greek nationalism and Greek nationalists. If Greece is so perfect then it should leave the EU.
What the Greeks have been doing is ridiculous, kindergarden stuff. For a while it was slighlty understandable, under the rubric "might is right," but now with the failure and exposure of their economic and social weakness you'd think they would come down of their high horse. You'd think they would their house in order and fix their own economy, instead of trying to add to the burden of others.
I think Albanians need to get involved more forcefully in this vis-a-vis Greece, and coordinate together with Macedonians, you know, the Slavic ones, and with the Bulgarians and everybody else. For the sake of peace and coexistence in the Balkans. Let Macedonia be, as is, no threats to it, no threats from it. What's the problem with that??
Hang on, FYROM's make up is changing, and it will predominantly Albanian soon. I stand by Greeks. But also don't want that Albanians use the word Slavic to name their newest country. If they want to be called Macedonia, they should give back the land to Greeks. Better to live under Greece (as they are trying so hard to steal the identity) than Albania, I'm sure. I completely understand Greece. FYROM has serious crisis of identity, stealing someone's past, trying to create new Orthodox church, that the rest of us do not recognize. Chill out bros from FYROM, you'll soon be part of Albania, and you'll get your new religion- Islam.
Albanians should break free from Skopje. They have their own language, their own people and they possess territory. They should be integrated to Kosovo.
The rest of Skopje can either remain as it is (half territory, half population) or be integrated to Bulgaria. No one really cares about them anyway.
I could not agree less with anyone. This Greek proposal is stupid (sorry, but this REALL is stupid).
Just call the country Macedonia? Yes? Any problems? No, thank you and move on please!
It is ridiculous because it will be instantly rejected. There is no chance in hell that the Republic of Macedonia will adopt that proposal. Adamantios Vassilakis is stupid for thinking that they might accept it dispute rejecting more reasonable proposals.
Greece is being very unreasonable in this dispute and I think everyone should recognise Greece as the 'former Ottoman Province of Hellas' so that Greece can have a taste of their own medicine and see if they like it.
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
At the end of the day the Republic of Macedonia is located in geographical Macedonia. Greece should name their province Aegean Macedonia and RoM should call their country Vadar Macedonia. This way it will distinguish which part of Macedonia they're referring to.
The above name implies the Macedonia belongs to only Slavic and Albanian nations. It should include all citizens of Macedonia, regardless of the nationality, faith or beleive. Period. "Divide and Conquer" will not work this time.
Lol
Macedonia is just Macedonia, Yea some part is in Greece that only for the first time acquired in 1912!
Macedonia was always there where it is now.
Slavic means Glorious and is not a name for a people..
Caltic also means glorious btw
It's just means that a group of people (major part of present day Europeans) accomplished something great in the ancient past hence that name.
Byzantine province Hellas (present day southern Greece was slaviziced in the 10th C according to the Byzantines.
Furthermore In the Ottoman empire everyone who was Orthodox Christian was counted to be a Greek as Muslim was a synonym to Turk.
And the so called Slavic migrations is total BS!
Because if we believe that suddenly Slavs came to Germany/Balkans/Central Europe/Russia in that short period out of somewhere, yea right..
Imagine this, Romans conquer, Macedonia and the balkan region, would you expect the people to be enslaved or would the flee across the rivers to the north (present day Ukraine/Poland/Russia)
They just came back to reclaim their lands.
But hey anyway we live no here the past is the past and the future is the future.
Focus on now, what the real history was we can only guess history that we learn is build up with lies or let's say not the full truth of things that happened out of interest of powerful people at that time and because the winner writes his story.
I guess the Greeks forgot they have Albanians and a few million of them too. I guess the Greeks are just as dumb as the Serbs by attacking Christians and the Albanians took Kosovo right under there nose. It looks like the Greeks will make the same mistake and lose in the end. Have another parade chanting you want to kill Albanians. I guess the Greeks want to kiss a little Albanian A** before they end up next. You Greeks are nothing more then thieves and spineless as always. Your occupation of Macedonia was a gift from the west as Kosovo was was gift from the west. Looks like the Balkans(Christians) will never learn to work together and let science and scholars teach the youth history and DNA test. DNA has solved millions of murders proven those guilty. Once again Greeks are not Macedonians as DNA has proven this at its funny how the Greeks keep there mouth shut when it comes to DNA test. You better hope the Turks don't come back bc you will be the first to suffer.
That you consider it "ridiculous" only reveals that you have very little insight into the historic volatility of the Balkans, where "ridiculous" issues like usurping a neighbour's historic name and cultural symbols, and disseminating maps showing northern Greece and Thessaloniki as a part of a "greater" FYROM tend to incite bloody ethnic conflict.
What is really ridiculous is Fyrom's attempt attempt in the year 2013 AD to claim ethnic exclusivity to people 2500 years ago ,what is even more ludicrous though is naming a country after a name that they have no historic connection to given the ethnic composition of Fyrom ,the fact their ancestors arrived there about 1000 years after the Macedonians and secondly not living within the boundaries of what was ancient Macedonia.
Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic.We simply object to total usurpation of a historical and geographical name that is the same as our largest province.Greece has made an offer to Fyrom of adding a geographical qualifier to the name in order to settle the dispute which has been rejected on every occasion( former communists have their own agendas) .I still can't see why a geographic determinant qualifies as " nationalism"
As Albanian from Kosovo, I naturally support the fact thet the proposal recognizes Albanian in Macedonia, however, I dont believe the Macedonian Gov't will agree to this proposal. Eventually they have no choice but to agree due to the change in demographic (Albanians population increase/Macedonia population decrease). I know it is not a great solution but the more time passes the better chance for a solution, so we should wait.
have i hit a nerve or something? you are so far removed from Socratic principles its not even funny. you have abandoned the teachings of Epicurus for Jesus and all that nonsense
(Ron, 29 October 2013 20:30)
I agree 100% with Ron for the first time in history which all most makes me afraid to go to bed tonight as the world may end. Macedonia had that name as a republic of Yugoslavia, so what is the problem. But I also agree with the name Republic of Northern Macedonia. But it seems like Greece is just being a butthole.
When Greece, willingly & voluntary proposes this solution for Macedonia with a 50-60% Albanian population, then surly Greece is prepared to recognize Kosova, Which has a 95% Albanian population! Greece has long ago, sensed that this process, of a reunified Albanian state is inevitable! With some hard-heads, you must get to the point bluntly!!!
The french named a salad after macedonia, due to its mixed races...
The name is fitting, even though my Bulgarian brothers have lost their way ethnically due to years of Turkish/Serbian/Communist rule.. Macedonia is fine.. its just a place called Macedonia with many different ethnic groups residing.. always have been and always will..
As for Leonides.. just do an DNA test and you will see that you have Bulgarian DNA.. not sure what the drama is.. just move on! be proud that the modern Greek is a human version of Macedonia! a mix bag of ethnic groups
Rocky, where did you get your dream numbers of 50/60% of Albanians from?
(Daniel, 30 October 2013 )
Yea right Daniel, I'll bet, your going by numbers & statistics that the chauvinist Slavo-Macedonians have been trying to feed to everyone for all these years! All know very well, that the Slavo-Macedonians have been suppressing the figures, when it comes to the actual number of Albanian inhabitants that really exist in Macedonia! Your very low, 25% is a despicable joke! Reality is the number is much closer to 50+%!!! Its only a matter of time, for the real numbers to be finally revealed!
How about just eliminating one letter? Acedonia. That would sit well with Alexander the Great since Alex in FYROM is "Ace", (pronounced Atse), the Albanians would be happy because it ends with the letter "a" , and even the Italians would be satisfied as it would be easy for them to say it.
that should pacify the alleged hellenists
(Nikolle, 29 October 2013 23:53)
Anyone with a pea historical brain will know that the "alleged Hellenists" can produce a record of historical continuity from the ancient to modern era.Can the same be said for the "Illyrian imposters"?
Daniel this might surprise you but the CIA Factbook doesn't actually go into countries conducting independent CENSUS.
The information you get is partialy supplied from subject countries and CIA is usualy into providing disinformation......
For example the Greek minority in Albania number 60,000 but Athens claims 600,000,
Just like Serbs...... they love to exaggerate their true body count when it clearly suites them.
Greeks and Serbs habitualy exagerate their minorities count when its in their interest and automaticly either undercount or even deny outright their actual existance as the Greeks do with The Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares occupied by Greece.
The CIA Factbook is the Agency's best "GUESS-TIMATE".
Mr. Thanasis you ask a very good question " so how many Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares are their".
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Greece must first ackowledge non ethnic indigenous inhabitants existed before Greek independence.
Shqiptare native were unjusted ethnicly cleansed,suffered Genocide and illegaly had property taken from them.
They don't even have the right to return,even as Greek citizens...
And yet they "invented Democracy" and what not.
EU needs to monitor and re evaluate Greek membership qualifications.
Mr. Thanasis you ask a very good question " so how many Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares are their".
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Greece must first ackowledge non ethnic indigenous inhabitants existed before Greek independence.
Shqiptare native were unjusted ethnicly cleansed,suffered Genocide and illegaly had property taken from them.
They don't even have the right to return,even as Greek citizens...
And yet they "invented Democracy" and what not.
EU needs to monitor and re evaluate Greek membership qualifications.
to get back on track now, there is no doubt that the attempt to create a Macedonian identity linked to the ancient ones are nothing but laughable. its well known that the current Maceodnians are Slavs and hence this connection to Alexander and Philip is fictional. this though doesn't mean that Greece should dictate what the name of the country should be. i don't see why Macedonia cannot be called Macedonia. its only a name, it represents no threat to Greece, either militarily or culturally.
Thanasis,
Fair enough we do not have to agree. My point is that no matter what facts we use, it's very difficult to convice each other. Establishing positions of superiority for our nations in these discourse doesn't help neither.
As far as Macedonian Albanians, you might not be aware , but they speak a dialect of Albanian language spoken in southeastern Albania. Also the first conference of Albanian language was held in Manastiri in Macedonia. It's true that there is a certain distance created between Albanians due to past physical distance. But with the new highways connecting Tirana-Prishtina-Skopje, things have started to change fast. There is also unified education programs, increase in trade and cultural exchanges. Bottom line, as our world renown writer Ismail Kadare says, there have never been in modern history more Albanian living in relative freedom. And I believe that this will be good for the Balkans.
".If modern people were following the teachings of Jesus the world would've been a better place."
yep, and if we have states (ala Greece) that constitutionally define themselves as part of that faith, then you have bigotry, racism and Leonidas, none of which, are good ideas. Greeks should go back to the teachings of Epicurus and not bow to their priests all the time
It is precisely people like you, immigrants from skopje who hide behind an identity like "eu citizen" whose limited intelligence and large ignorance leads them to make such ridiculous statements
Things are clear - the US and the EU have noted that it is Skopje's extremism and detachment from reality that is causing problems. You better look again at the table and see who is better positioned in this negotiation. If this is not in line with what you would like to hear then you better go back to skopje, because in fact the EU had enough of you and your prime minister.
But in fairness, skopje is not a real country. Skopje should be dismantled to 2 pieces and be given to teo countries: Albania and Bulgaria and this is the end of the story. You have no history, no identity. You better go back to those who actually have something like this. Albania and Bulgaria is your future. You better get used to it fake eu citizen, just like your fake country.
As for Leonides.. just do an DNA test and you will see that you have Bulgarian DNA.. not sure what the drama is.. just move on! be proud that the modern Greek is a human version of Macedonia! a mix bag of ethnic groups
(Bulgar Of Ohrid, 30 October 2013 00:03)
The essence of your comment surpasses by miles the usual nationalistic nonsense aired by Albanian posters.Indeed,the Greeks emigrated to another planet! Cheap Bulgarian propaganda.
I would recommend to you to stop visiting sites like the poisonous Maknews and Mina and instead visit well known public libraries and I am certain you will find who you really are.
It seems to me that your favourite past-time is to continue with your ignorant comments on this and other sites.If you bothered to study a bit of Ottoman history you would've found that parts of Greece were occupied for less than half the time other Balkan places were.For example Crete,Peloponnese were occupied for less than 200 years whereas some of the Ionian Islands (Corfu)were never under the Ottomans.Therefore,the title of "former" is more applicable to other Balkan states.
The Greek position on the name dispute(to my consternation) has moved considerably in the last 20 years to the point that only a geographic qualifier is required in front of the name as an acceptable solution.But even this compromise has been thwarted by Fyrom on the grounds of infringing on their identity(what identity?).Therefore,the stalemate will continue for years to come.
Alexander had started out as a crusader, to avenge the invasion and the destruction of the Greek Cities by various Persian rulers, but later had as his goal the extension of Hellenic ways of life throughout his empire.Around seventy cities were founded which were planned on the Greek pattern, with a market square, schools, offices, shops, temples, theatre and gymnasium ( not the kind of facilities the British empire provided to its subjects).
As to your point Fyrom is within geographic Macedonia so is Iran,India,Pakistan and all Alexander's colonies.Do their citizens have the right to be called macedonians?
Yea right Daniel, I'll bet, your going by numbers & statistics that the chauvinist Slavo-Macedonians have been trying to feed to everyone for all these years! All know very well, that the Slavo-Macedonians have been suppressing the figures, when it comes to the actual number of Albanian inhabitants that really exist in Macedonia! Your very low, 25% is a despicable joke! Reality is the number is much closer to 50+%!!! Its only a matter of time, for the real numbers to be finally revealed!
(Rocky, 30 October 2013 15:18)
Go complain to CIA factbook.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
I totally agree with you Ian_uk.
Alexander was a misogynistic tyrant far worst then Hitler or anybody that we know of!!
I don't deny what you're saying about the former Ottoman rule on present day Greece but the word 'former' means "having previously been a particular thing". I really don't care if you think the term 'former' is more applicable to other Balkan states.
"Alexander had started out as a crusader, to avenge the invasion and the destruction of the Greek Cities by various Persian rulers, but later had as his goal the extension of Hellenic ways of life throughout his empire.Around seventy cities were founded which were planned on the Greek pattern, with a market square, schools, offices, shops, temples, theatre and gymnasium ( not the kind of facilities the British empire provided to its subjects)."
What's next Leonidas, are you going to tell me that Hitler started off as a crusader trying right all the wrongs from the Treaty of Versailles? Are you going tell me all the good Hitler did from all the infrastructure he had built across his Empire aka Third Reich?
Iran, India and Pakistan ect aren't located in Geographic Macedonia therefore they aren't "Macedonians". Only people in the universally recognised geographic region of Macedonia have the right to use the denomyn "Macedonian" as they're from the region of Macedonia. Here is map of geographic Macedonia: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Macedonia_region_map_wikipedia.png
And according to you, I'm the ignorant one. What a joke!
The Albanians in Greece are immigrants like they are in Italy,Germany or Switzerland whereas in your country are autochthonous thus the 2001 Ohrid agreement which confirms their position.I am not sure what is their present size but what I know is your government has cancelled the planned census out of fear that it would confirm higher numbers for the Albanians.Instead of being concerned about Greece you should be concerned about Fyrom and on present trends in few years you'll be toast.
oh dear, Alexandra was a true humanist! you used the phrase expand the hellenic way of life, not defend the hellenic way of life. once the persians were defeated, he went on into other parts, but i get it now, his primary reason was to trade, not to conquer. yes, that is not imperialism, thats just opening borders
Can someone answer me why there are over 1 million ethnic Macedonians in Thessaloniki that claim to be tied to Skopje and the old Macedonia? the Macedonian movement is starting for the return of solun to Macedonia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28ptQb1ack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2AdHSNaIok
original Macedonians in Greece celebrating the Macedonian uprising
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EusJKOcyJAU
and didn't Iraklis FC want to join their home nation and play in the Macedonian football league
http://macedoniadaily.blogspot.com.au/2010/06/greek-football-club-to-play-in.html
What the Greeks have been doing is ridiculous, kindergarden stuff. For a while it was slighlty understandable, under the rubric "might is right," but now with the failure and exposure of their economic and social weakness you'd think they would come down of their high horse.
===============================
So Albi, you also agree with the might is right policy then.
What happened to right is right not might is right?
have i hit a nerve or something? you are so far removed from Socratic principles its not even funny. you have abandoned the teachings of Epicurus for Jesus and all that nonsense
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 13:44)
The funny thing is having an Albanian talking to a Greek about the teachings of Socrates.In fact Jesus and Socrates are similar in many ways.Both were teachers and taught what is right and wrong ,tried to enlighten people,share their knowledge with others and above all taught humility.In the end both became martyrs.But you wouldn't know all this,would you?
so much for your anti-imperialsit leanings eh Leonidas? some Empires are OK right?
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 23:57)
The title of pro-imperialist crusader belongs to you and your fellow Albanians that never lose the opportunity to cheer the likes of war criminals Clinton,Bush ,Blair and Obama who have slaughtered millions in their imperialistic wars against Iraq,Afganistan and Libya in the last few years.I do recall your postings being animated against people who were against Western intervention in Syria.Enjoy your ANTI-IMPERIALISM.
excuse me, but you just here described Alexander The Great's campaigns in romantic terms, you even said he wanted to extend the Hellenistic way of life. and where did he extend that into? into parts of the world that weren't greek right? thats imperialism, but for one reason or another, in your eyes, thats good imperialism.
Where did this one come from? Oh I see, because I misspelled Alexander's name. It matters not one iota to me if he was a homosexual, it seems to matter to you though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought him fathering children into it.
Thanasis,
You state that Arvanitis are emigrants, we state Greeks of South Albania are emigrants. You can never find the truth, especially because both parties believe are right. The truth in case of Macedonia is that Greece is worried about a potential third Albanian controled state, 50 years down the road and the implications that come with it. Slav Macedonians somehow don't get it, and believe it's about them. But wasting money building monuments and building doesn't buy you neither history neither demography. I would hope I am wrong and Balkan countries get out of primitive status of perpetual fighting for someone elses land , but so far I am not sure. At the end of the day it doesn't matter whom came first where. We are here breathing , with God given right to live our lifes and persue our happiness. And I mean all of us.....
I disagree with you my friend. History is a science and as a science it has its methodology and sources. You claim that the Greeks in southern Albania are immigrants. So where did they come from, when did this migration take place and which historian mentions it? We can all make all sorts of claims but there are claims which are based on historic facts and claims that are totally arbitrary. Not all claims have the same value. There is the historic truth and in order to find it all you have to do is open the books and resort to the sources.
As for the second part of your comment and your assertion that Greece is worried about the creation of a third albanian controlled state in western FYROM i can assure you that noone in Greece will be too displeased if that country falls apart. On the contrary we think that such a development is unavoidable. The eastern part will be united with Bulgaria since the slavic population is mainly bulgarian while the western part will more probably be attached to Kosovo and not Albania. I don't think that the Albanians have enough internal cohesion in order to form one big albanian state. I know you ain't gonna admit that but that's my opinion and i think i'm right.
As for peace and prosperity in the Balkans Greece is the only country that invested money and effort towards that direction but we didn't get a response from our neighbors. They chose their ridiculous nationalisms and tried to roar like lions even though they were mice.
thanasis
so you don't dispute you are a created state?
then I guess Macedonia is Macedonia and Greece is starting trouble as usual.
from someone looking in with no ties to either countries it looks very bad and stupid for Greece to stamp authority in the region while they are bankrupt, Germany could easily shut Greece down and hand back the north to Macedonia, the west to Albania and the south to Turkey.
I think the Greeks should tread very carefully and settle down a touch.
this is true Balkan (Greek)idiocy, thank you very much...
(roberto, 29 October 2013 20:44)
g'dang little tree feller, I thought you done died and went to hades by now.
As to your point Fyrom is within geographic Macedonia so is Iran,India,Pakistan and all Alexander's colonies.Do their citizens have the right to be called macedonians?
(Leonidas, 30 October 2013 17:51)
Of course they can decide to call themselves whatever they want. If India were to decide tomorrow to change the name to Macedonia, what will poor Greece do?! Perhaps send a diplomatic note for opening name change negotiations to which Macedonia (formerly India) would reply "mind your own business"...
another one who taught us the wisdom of inquisitive thinking and asking questions. sadly the modern greeks have forgotten those lessons, they have chosen Jesus instead. so much so that they define themselves as a state of the orthodox faith. yeah, you really for have much in common with humanistic hellenists like Epicurus, Socrates, Aristarchus, etal.
(Nikolle, 30 October 2013 23:43)
Throwing few ancient Greek names at me doesn't grant you the title of being of a wisdom inquisitive person.On the contrary the overwhelming majority of Albanians are just sheeple and ready to oblige at anyone throwing few crumbs at them.Just take a look at yourself and your actions and see whether you've got any humanity in you before you start questioning others.If modern people were following the teachings of Jesus the world would've been a better place.
".I do recall your postings being animated against people who were against Western intervention in Syria"
did not see this one. lets see, 100000 dead in Syria thus far, and counting, and yet people believe that doing nothing is better than doing something. The World didn't intervene in Rwanda either, it left them do deal with their own problems, was that good do you think?
is that the best you can come up with? i am familiar with both, one who claimed to be son of God (the definition of arrogance) who also said that the way to eternal life is through him and him only, another one who taught us the wisdom of inquisitive thinking and asking questions. sadly the modern greeks have forgotten those lessons, they have chosen Jesus instead. so much so that they define themselves as a state of the orthodox faith. yeah, you really for have much in common with humanistic hellenists like Epicurus, Socrates, Aristarchus, etal.
Contrary to your usual ignorant comments the majority of British classical historians ( Tom Holland,Robin Lane Fox)amongst others take the view that had Alexander been defeated by the Persians and Greek states annihilated, the Western democracy, culture, art and philosophy that developed from this period in history might have been lost, and the Western world today could be very different.Read Tom Holland's "Persian Fire" or Robin Lane Fox's "Classical Greece" to open your eyes.
The area where Fyrom is today were the occupied territories of Paionia and dardania.It was never part of ancient Macedonia as maitained by Fyrom.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paionia
The ancient Macedonian kingdoms in India,Pakistan,Afganistan had also had Greek identities and wee part of the geographical macedonia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavana_Kingdom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grece-Bastian_Kingdom.
To compare Alexander with Hitler is far fetched even for semi-illiterate people.Did he commit any genocide by any definition?
excuse me, but you just here described Alexander The Great's campaigns in romantic terms, you even said he wanted to extend the Hellenistic way of life. and where did he extend that into? into parts of the world that weren't greek right? thats imperialism, but for one reason or another, in your eyes, thats good imperialism.
(Nikolle, 31 October 2013 11:14)
No I didn't. What I said is Alexander's prime reason for his expedition in Asia was to deal with the Persian menace once and for all.This is also confirmed by the number of plots and mutinies by his generals and soldiers who wanted to return back to Greece.
Having done that then he decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between East and West and exposed those vast areas to Greek civilization and influence.Some of the cities he founded became major cultural centres ( Alexandria), many surviving into the 21st century.The huge difference between Alexander's wars and modern definition of imperialism the former was in defence of your country whereas the latter is in pursuit of profits by killing and subjugating people.
Greeks and Serbs habitualy exagerate their minorities count when its in their interest and automaticly either undercount or even deny outright their actual existance as the Greeks do with The Chams,Arvanites and other indigenous Shqiptares occupied by Greece.
So how many are those Chams, Arvanites and "other indigenous shqiptares" who live in the greek occupied albanian lands? Can you give me a number or a rough estimate? And by the way the Arvanites came to Greece in the 14th century and noone denies that but i guess that the word indigenous has a different meaning in the albanian language than in any other language of the world.
hahaha, what a funny proposal. I think Greece should be called "Greek-Albanian-Vlacho-Slavo-Turko Greece".
Out of all people, Greeks should not even get that conversation started. Even the first king of Greece, Otto in 1832, acknowledged that most of the population within his Greek republic actually spoke Albanian! Greece is a romantic Western European creation.
To be honest, I think Macedonians and Greeks are both sickos for fighting over Alexander the "Great". He is responsible for pioneering colonialism as well as being responsible for the murder, rape, enslaving and imprisoning of thousands of people. He was the George W Bush of his day. Why would Greeks or Macedonians want to be associated with such an evil man?
(Ian, UK, 30 October 2013 14:20)
You didn't have to cross the pond to make comparisons with evildoers. There's plenty of 'em on your side of the swamp.
(don't mess with Texas!!!!!!, 30 October 2013 22:56)
This answer can only come from a free internationaly monitored CENSUS where the current inhabitants are with out fear to declare their TRUE ethnicity without retaliation.
Sorry but we had a census in 2011 and no "indigenous Albanians" were found in Greece. The next census is in 2021 but don't lose faith. By then hopefully some "indigenous Albanians" will have grown from the ground.
What I said is Alexander's prime reason for his expedition in Asia was to deal with the Persian menace once and for all.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
Well, that's precisely what Bush said, as well... He attacked Afghanistan to deal with the Al-Qaeda menace once and for all.
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Having done that then he decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between East and West and exposed those vast areas to Greek civilization and influence.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
exactly, that's what Bush did as well... He decided to transform his conquests by expanding trade between America and Iraq and exposing those vast areas to democracy and influence.
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The huge difference between Alexander's wars and modern definition of imperialism the former was in defence of your country whereas the latter is in pursuit of profits by killing and subjugating people.
(Leonidas, 31 October 2013 12:45)
The explanation you gave showed that there is no difference at all since modern imperialism (like Bush's one) was in defence of Bush's country, as well, unless, of course, you don't consider as imperialism what Bush did.
I am appalled to know that in the 21st century we are disputing ancient ancient information .
When Yugoslavia split, each and every republic was recognized for the republic they were always known as when it was once Yugoslavia.
If all the other republics can be recognized then The republic of Macedonia should be no different.
I am shocked and appalled to know that racism still exists in this day and age.
Greece is Greece and Serbia is Serbia , Croatia is Croatia . Therefore , Macedonia is Macedonia .
To make up a name for a country to please another country is sadly disappointing . It's like asking Greece to change there name to Turkish Greece . How silly in this day and age .
Your referring to people not boarding game naming .
Let history stay in the past , learn to accept and respect one another for who we are today .
Racism is taught , we are not born to be racists.
Denying someone's true identity is stripping them of there rights .
How sad :( .
Truly disappointed and astonished ,
21st Century Canadian Macedonian
The grandfathers of the so-called Macedonians had no problem being Bulgarians prior to WW2 and the birth of SFRJ. It was Tito who forged the macedonian national identity because he wanted to remove the bulgarian influence on that territory. It's common truth that in the Balkans national identities can be manipulated very easily. Look at Montenegro for example. 20 years ago noone considered the Montenegrins as a different nation than the Serbs but now they have their own state, nationality and they even claim that the montenegrin language is distinct from serbian. The same goes for the so-called Macedonians. A Macedonian and a Bulgarian both speak the same language and they're actually the same people. Anyway i too think that the name dispute is insignificant and Greece is making a mistake for spending too much time on that issue, however i also think that the slav leaders of the neighboring country should take any offer Greece makes them because time is a luxury to them. The albanian population is rising in numbers while the slavic one is aging and decreasing. Pretty soon they'll have monuments of Alexander and Philip but they won't have a country. And then who are they gonna turn to? We and the Serbs don't like them that much so mother Bulgaria is their only option. And then we'll see all those die-hard Macedonians become Bulgarians overnight like their grandfathers and the wheel of history will have made a complete turn.
Genome mapping tells us who from what, as far as I am concerned people can call themselves whatever the hell they want, but that doesn't make it so. If someone wants to pretend they are egyptian that is fine, if someone wants to pretend they are Macedonian I don't see why not. If some man wants to dress up and pretend he is Napoleon or a woman, what do I care? You can call yourself whatever you want just as long as you don't try to make me recognize your nonsense. So the solution I think is no solution - let them call themselves Macedonians and let the Greeks call them something else entirely. Meanwhile lets rebuild the economy and economic co-operation for regular people who don't care about politics so that we can have this argument when every kid is fed, pensioners are well taken care of, and we are a little wealthier
And Albania is a donation by Italy and Austria. You wanna go down that road? At least we bastards fought for our freedom and independence. When and where exactly did you pure-blooded Illyrians fight in order to become free? Oh i forgot you didn't.
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