New proposal reportedly tabled in Macedonia name dispute

"A mediator in the Macedonia name dispute, that has been ongoing for 20 years now, has reportedly suggested "the Upper Republic of Macedonia" as a solution.... The suggestion, reportedly insisted on by Skopje, would be acceptable to Greece "if the geographical determinant were to be placed before the word 'Macedonia', and not in front of the word 'Republic'." "

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If 'Upper' is to be in it's name, it should be in front of the noun 'Macedonia' and not the adjective 'Republic'. When 'Republic' is used in a state's official name, it is an adjective describing the type of country it is, which is a Republic. But what is an "Upper Republic"? It doesn't make sense.

The adjective 'Upper' has been suggested to be included in the state's official name to describe which part of Geographical Macedonia the state is referring to, which is the northern part of of Macedonia aka 'Upper Macedonia'. This is why it makes sense to call the country the "Republic of Upper Macedonia" and not the "Upper Republic of Macedonia" as it is a Republic in the Northern part of Macedonia.

If the adjective "Upper" is before the word "Republic", it appears as if it is describing the type of Republic it is and I have no idea what an "Upper Republic" could be.

If it were up to me, it should be called the "Republic of Vardar Macedonia", the Greek region should be called "Aegean Macedonia" and the Bulgarian region should be called "Pirin Macedonia".

Here is a proposal - how about the Republic of Macedonia (ROM)?


Kthanksbai!

My proposal: Stop with this nonsense. The name of the country is Macedonia. No poblem! Stop wasting time on this non-issue!

I don't understand the Greeks demand for a geographic identifier in the name. To me if there is an Upper or Northern Macedonia, It means there is a Lower or Southern Macedonia; 2 parts of 1 whole. Ex: North and South Korea are the same people, same as East and West Germany. I think Greece would be better served if they referred to there province as, as "Provincial Macedonia". It would be a more clear division of the 2.

Upper Republic of Macedonia is fine as long as Greece names occupied Aegean Macedonia as Southern Macedonia,and in the mean time recognizes the indigenous Macedonian minority.This way,the 20 year old Greek problem will be solved.Republic of Macedonia has the right to be called Republic of Macedonia.Republic of Macedonia and(Geographic Macedonia)is Macedonian territory in all four partitioned areas for centuries.France and Germany must come out clean,and tell the world why did they partitioned Macedonia illegally in 1913.

the ancient Macedonians were Greeks.
(Leonidas, 15 April 2013 19:28)

You mean that Ancient Macedonians were Ancient Greeks, which are ethnically entirely different to contemporary Greeks.

Just like Ancients Bulgars (Turkic people) are different to contemporary Bulgarians (Slavic people).

The Republic of Macedonia has a stronger claim to the name 'Macedonia' than Greece as Ancient Greeks are similar to present day Albanians and Albanians live in Macedonia.

Leonidas, you do realize that whatever name Macedonia chooses, it will revert back to the Republic of Macedonia once it is in the EU and NATO. Then Greece can run crying to the ICJ for a non-binding opinion.

Well with macedonia's long name dispute problem solved, macedonia will be able to start accession negotiations soon, meaning that serbia, montenegro and macedonia will start negotiations together, and probably finish together and join the EU together. Albania and bosnia have yet so much work to do, so they can join together later..

this dispute is one of the most trivial that I can think of. why shouldn't Macedonia be called Macedonia? When did Greece decide to make a copyright claim on that name? you can do nothing but laugh at Balkan nonsense

I don't understand the Greeks demand for a geographic identifier in the name. To me if there is an Upper or Northern Macedonia, It means there is a Lower or Southern Macedonia; 2 parts of 1 whole. Ex: North and South Korea are the same people, same as East and West Germany. I think Greece would be better served if they referred to there province as, as "Provincial Macedonia". It would be a more clear division of the 2.
(robert1899, 15 April 2013 18:01)

Well it's a huge mistake by present day Greek politicians to accept a name for Fyrom which includes the noun" Macedonia".Macedonians were those who lived in ancient Macedonia and still reside in the area the ancient Kingdom occupied.What is now Fyrom was not part of Macedonia,it was Paeonia and just like Persia and Egypt they were part of the Macedonian empire.But you never hear an Egyptian or Iranian claiming to be Macedonians.Contrary to the deluded Fyromian claim that Macedonia was divided among three nations, the ancient Macedonia is in Greece where it belongs since the ancient Macedonians were Greeks.

How about the Republic of Western Bulgaria? or Fake People's Republic of Vardavska or Albanian People's Failed Statelet of Gruevskistan?

My proposal: Stop with this nonsense. The name of the country is Macedonia. No poblem! Stop wasting time on this non-issue!
(Ron, 15 April 2013 20:18)

Nonsense Ron?What right do Fyromians have to usurp a foreign Macedonian name and use it as their own and on top of that have the stupidity and audacity to claim they are the modern descendants of the ancient ones when its well documented both archaelogically and historically that their ancestors arrived in the Balkans 1000 years after ancient Macedonia became a Roman province?

Fyrom's dilemma is self-inflicted by appropriating a historical name belonging to Greece and is forcing Gruevski and posters like Peter to make territorial and cultural claims that are unfounded in order to comply with their propaganda.

Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic.We simply object to usurpation of a historical and geographical name which is part of Hellenism.The Balkan wars fought against the Bulgarians were in order to protect this territory and is within the living memory of all Greeks.

(Peter, 15 April 2013 20:24)

The essence of your comment surpasses by miles the usual nationalistic nonsense aired by Albanian posters.There wasn't any country called Mecedonia inhabited by Macedonians in 1913.However,there was a geographic area called Macedonia occupied by the Ottoman empire and the link below confirms this.

http://www2.units.it/storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg

I would recommend to you and your compatriots to stop visiting sites like the poisonous Maknews and Mina and instead visit well known public libraries and I am certain you will find who you really are.

(Leonidas, 16 April 2013 15:01)

Don't forget Danish, Old English was pretty much identical to Old Danish. The English language has also adopted many Welsh, Cornish and Gaelic words too. Even Japanese words have entered the English language such as 'tycoon'. And there are tons of English words of Indian origin too, but this is only natural as languages are constantly changing and evolving.

But then again there are thousands of Greek words of English origin. When you don't have a Greek word for something, you take an English word and you 'Greek-ify' it. But that is only natural because languages are constantly changing and evolving.

We don't speak the British Language as it is extinct. In around 600 AD it transformed into Old Welsh, Cornish, Cumbric and Breton. The English language is the language which developed, evolved and formed in England (and to a certain extent Scotland) from many other languages. Some British people speak languages other than English such as Welsh (which I can speak a bit of), Cornish, Gaelic, Scots and Irish.

The word 'maggot' comes from the Anglo-Norman word 'maddock' meaning worm.

What right have I got to call myself British? I'm born and bred in Britain. I'm part Welsh and Cumbric (Brythonic Celts) on my mother's side and Scottish (Gael and Pictish Celts) on my father's side. Some of my ancestors have been in this land for thousands of years.

Let me answer your question with another question.Had Fyrom chosen the name of Republic of Bavaria instead of Macedonia as its constitutional name can you imagine the Germans recognising them? I don't think so,why should Greeks be any different?
(Leonidas, 16 April 2013 10:22)

Germany would recognise it as the 'Republic of Bavaria' if it were located in a geographical region called Bavaria. The same way Iran recognises Azerbaijan as the "Republic of Azerbaijan" without getting in a fit over it's name, saying that the name lays claim to Iran's provinces of the same name.

The Republic of Macedonia is entirely located in the geographical region of Macedonia and this is where it takes it's name from.

I think France should be like Greece and refuse to recognise the UK as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" because we use the name 'Britain' in our full name and everyone knows that Britain is a province in France which also goes by the name of 'Brittany' or 'Little Britain'.

Maybe Greece should be recognised as the "former Ottoman region of Hellas"?

Maybe Greece should be recognised as the "former Ottoman region of Hellas"?
(Ian, UK, 16 April 2013 13:32)

The title of"former Ottoman" is more applicable to other Balkan countries since they were under the Ottomans for considerable time longer than Greece.The title of "former" is even more applicable to Britain,"Former Roman,Anglo-Saxon,Viking,Norman Republic".Have you ever bothered to ask why the British speak English rather than British?The answer is simple and shameful as it is,the English language contains few words attributable to the original inhabitants of the British isles.It's a mishmash of Latin,Greek,German,Norse and French,the only word that is likely to be British is "maggot".The English treatment of the early British people,language and culture has been contemptible from the start,so what right have you got to call yourselves British? Absolutely none.

Here is a proposal - how about the Republic of Macedonia (ROM)?
KOSO

Exactley! I guess a people that are a mix of bulgarians, turks, gypsies, albanians and serbs are to proud to be called the Rupublic of Macedonia. Because of that they are standing last to join the EU.

"Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic"

That may be true Leonidas. Still, I cannot imagine how a country can 'own' a name. A name is not a purse, one does not own it, one shouts it. Can you clarify this 'name ownership' concept, if you will? How can a country 'own' a name? It seems like something at the limits of fetishism has been elevated to national policy. Greek position is fetishistic. It is just as incomprehensible to me as the claim that current Macedonians are the descendants of the ancient ones.

Leonides

Vilayet of Manastiri as of 1912
Christian Bulgarians - 331,000
Muslim Albanians - 219,000
Orthodox Vlachs - 65,000
Orthodox Greeks - 62,000
Mixed - 35,000
Muslim Bulgarians - 24,000
Muslim Turks - 11,500

Solinika as of 1890

Had 55 000 Jews
26 000 Jews
16 000 Greeks
10 000 Bulgars



Also don't forget that the greeks referred to Bulgars as being greek occasionally, solely based the fact that the greeks set up a church in a Slavic town, the greeks had set up churchs in many Slavic towns in an effort to convert the locals and bring them under there influence, eg towns such has prilep, kratovo.. basically towns that had zero greeks in them... to cut a long story short, greeks exaggerated their figures for propaganda purposes, the church was at the forefront of this hellenic policy

Other relevant vilayets kosovo

Muslim Albanians - 418,000
Christian Bulgarians - 250,000
Orthodox Serbs - 113,000
Mixed - 22,000
Muslim Bulgarians - 14,000
Muslim Turks - 9,000
Orthodox Vlachs - 900
Orthodox Greeks - 200


Anyway Leonides, if you want to be constructive, do a survey of Agean Macedonia on whos ancestors arrived from Turkey(asia minor) pontians or Pontiacs what ever u call them

I personally think the name should be slavomacedonia which best describes the majority of inhabitants of fyrom.it also describes their language and culture.

Macedonia is not the western democratic process a wounderful thing, negotiating your name to please others, what would Goce Delchev say.
Your most recent ancesters fought and died to aid in the formation of a yugoslav republic that for the first time in moderen history guaranteed your existance and your languange and you honour their memory and sacrifice by negotiating what they fought for. Be proud of your accomplishments as an independant nation strong in the fact that over 130 nations currently address you as The Republic of Macedonia and that brotherhood and unity still exists.

Upper Republic of Macedonia...What country in the world would stoop so low that they would even consider such a name. These people as a race have no patriotism, no passion no anything...! The only reason they are still in Skpoje is because peasant Tito gave them Paprika to live off.

Read in between the lines, u r not listening...

1) the slavs of fyrom r Bulgarian
2) but if they want to call their country Macedonia then it's they God given rite to do so.

All IM saying is that u or ur kind can't claim sole ownership of antiguity, nor can fyrom, but u are free to call urself or believe what ever u like but u can not impose ur views or vice versa, live and let live, the argument is silly and racist... Get over it no one wants ur precious country.. Don't loose sleep over nothing..
(bulgar of ohrid, 16 April 2013 10:36)

Since we both agree that Fyromians are ethnic Bulgarians and since the ancient kingdom of Macedonia lies within Greece why should Greeks share ownership with Fyromians?My comments are not racist but pragmatic, no country has the right to fabricate history in order to create its own.

BTW Your census statistics cannot be accepted in the absence of source quotation.

Get over it no one wants ur precious country.. Don't loose sleep over nothing..
(bulgar of ohrid, 16 April 2013 10:36)

Really? If that's so then why did your compatriots (the Bulgarians) invade and occupy eastern Macedonia and Thrace during WW2 alongside the powers of Axis? If noone wants our precious country then why do you have to steal parts of its precious history and present them as your own? If noone wants our precious country then why do you usurpate our precious symbols? Can you tell me how many balkan countries have the two-headed eagle as a national symbol? Why can't you create symbols of your own? So don't tell me that noone wants my precious country because the Slavs have been having wet dreams about precious Thessaloniki since the 6th century AD when they set foot on the Balkans.

Leonides

IM not claiming links to the ancient Macedonians, but the fact of the matter is that us slavs have a long affiliation with geographical Macedonia, 1600 years or so, my father is from Patagonia.. Hence us slavs go a long way back, up until 100 years ago there were more of us than greeks.. Thus if futon don't want to join bulgaria then so be it..

There can be only one name and that is Macedonia. Macedonia never belonged to the league of Corinth as did all of the Greek city states. Macedonia was already a separate nation and country. The distinction between the 2 was always mutually recognized by both nations from the very beginning. Any argument to the contrary is just silly. Regardless of the fact of when the Slavic influence became a major factor, if and when they arrived they did not change the name of the country and became one with the land. The logic is simple...If the Greeks were so proud of our name, which they claim for their own, they would have never agreed to be called Greeks or Hellenes back in 1821 and would have demanded to be called Macedonians. however they can not do this or even claim this simply because they are not Macedonians and do not want to be Macedonians. They only want the land. From day one they should have refused to be called Greece and opted for our name Macedonia. But you will never here a true Macedonian refer to himself or herself as anything but Macedonian. We know who we are and where we came from and who our forefathers were. We do not need any other nation to dictate to us our name or culture or nationality.

Leonides u come across as paranoid, u repeat the same staff over and over again.
1) the slavs of Macedonia are culturally linguistically Slav
2) a portion of ancient Macedonia is found in fyrom
3) all todays Balkan people have partially DNA relating to the ancient Balkan people
4) can u prove ur Blood line contains more ancient Macedonian than the fyroms?
5) does speaking modern Greek mean u are Greek? If so are the slavic speakers of Greece Greek or slav?

Let's be honest 105 years ago 80 Percent of agean macedonia was slav, with
The Balkan wars, the persecution of slavs, Greek Civil war which resulted in the expulsion of 100 000 slavs, assimilation and the arrival of gReeks from Asia minor, greeks have only now become an absolutE majority.. Hence where can u trace if roots from lEonidez? Macedonia.
Or Asia minor,btw IM Bulgarian but my ancestors have been living in geogrAphical Macedonia for thousands of years.

Haitian, 15 April 2013 21:44)

It seems to me that you lack even elementary education.You seem to doubt the purity of the Greeks but can you name one nation in Europe which is ethnically pure?Nevertheless,the Greek trajectory is well documented through history and archaeology which confirms the linguistic and cultural links between the modern and ancient Greeks.

Fyrom hasn't got any valid claim to the name of Macedonia. Fyromians never inhabited the region of ancient Macedonia for mainly two reasons.Firstly,the area Fyrom occupies today was called Paeonia and secondly Fyrom's Slavic ancestors arrived in the area 1000 years after when the area was ruled by the Romans.

As to your comment about the Albanians being similar to ancient Greeks one has to decide whether to laugh or cry.Albanians are not indigenous to the Balkans and by all indications they have arrived from another place,probably Turkey.

Unlike the Albanians who believe whole-heartedly in the elitist project called EU I've always been of the opinion that it's lifespan will be short-lived.Therefore,Albanian and Fyromian dreams of becoming EU members will remain dreams of a summer night.

(bulgar of ohrid, 16 April 2013 01:16)

Any connection you make between the ancient Macedonians and Fyromians is laughable.The time when Bulgars arrived in the Balkans is well documented by world renown historians(google Robin Lane-Fox).

I did send a link below showing the ethnic composition of the various Ottoman Vilaets as recorded by the Ottoman themselves and your ancestors haven't been around for thousands of years.

(Reader, 16 April 2013 00:28)

Let me answer your question with another question.Had Fyrom chosen the name of Republic of Bavaria instead of Macedonia as its constitutional name can you imagine the Germans recognising them? I don't think so,why should Greeks be any different?

Leonidas...

Read in between the lines, u r not listening...

1) the slavs of fyrom r Bulgarian
2) but if they want to call their country Macedonia then it's they God given rite to do so.

All IM saying is that u or ur kind can't claim sole ownership of antiguity, nor can fyrom, but u are free to call urself or believe what ever u like but u can not impose ur views or vice versa, live and let live, the argument is silly and racist... Get over it no one wants ur precious country.. Don't loose sleep over nothing..

Thanisis

We do have our own symbols... The lion... Or does that too belong to someone else?

Once again, not only do the Greek prefer to impose their will over others, you now are thinking for us.

If it wasn't for the western powers, plus Serbia, today we wouldn't be chatting about Macedonia today on b92. Macedonia was given to modern Greece and populated by greeks from turkey. And as for wet dreams, google the megalo Greek pipe dreams..

Be realistic, I repeat no

How about "The Republic Of 42°0′N, 21°26′E", for now, you cant argue with geography!!
,,,and in 20 years or less, when the Albanians become the absolute majority, forever, and you skopljens are scratching your heads and wondering how the hell you lost your name and country and wishing you stayed in a union with Serbia, it can be named "The Republic of Eastern Albania" or "The Republic Of Albanian Macedonia", or whatever else the Albanians decide to name it.
,,,just a friendly suggestion from your Serbian neighbours who respectfully recognize the democratically elected rulers of "42°0′N, 21°26′E" now and in the future. :))

How about republic of macedonia. No properganda here. Macedonians for the macedonians. Bulgars and greeks working together to find a name resolution for the macedonians. Makes me laugh . worry about your own country. We are macedonians not bulgars or greeks or anything else. There are so many facts that are well documented that todays macedonians were and are a separate nation and have links and ties to ancient macedonians.slavs arriving in the balkans in the 6th century is a theory and thats all. But new evidence suugests that slavic tribes were dwelling in the north of of macedonia, dardania. You guys only have one vision to rewrite history so you have claims to macedonian lands and wipe macedonians out entirely.

This offered solution isn't going to please anyone, and after being humiliated by Germany in the bailout, Greece isn't going to play nice on this one. The problem with the EU is its purpose is to be a good will union between European nations, but it has no good will and relies on force and threats. If Germany failed, no one would bail them out. The EU barely survived, and has not recovered from the last recession. If another recession happens, it might survive but it won't look like it does now.

Dr. Igor Janev became well-known for his scholarly article: "Legal Aspects of the use of a Provisional Name for Macedonia in the United Nations system" published by the famous American Journal of International Law (Vol. 93, No. 1, 1999), where he had proved that the "provisional name" for a State is illegal in the International Law. AJIL is a leading journal in the (scientific) field of Int. Law. His arguments of illegality of the provisional name (namely "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or the "FYROM" for Macedonia) in International Law and, consequently, his Strategy of the establishing the Macedonian name and resistance to the change (or negotiations) of the official (Constitutional) State name ("Republic of Macedonia") in the United Nations (in the well-known UN established process for the Name-negotiations with the Greece opposing the Macedonian Name) were officially accepted by the Macedonian Government. Particularly, Janev's Strategy for the establishing the Macedonian name in the UN was accepted by the President of Macedonia Gjorge Ivanov.

I don't understand the Greeks demand for a geographic identifier in the name. To me if there is an Upper or Northern Macedonia, It means there is a Lower or Southern Macedonia; 2 parts of 1 whole. Ex: North and South Korea are the same people, same as East and West Germany. I think Greece would be better served if they referred to there province as, as "Provincial Macedonia". It would be a more clear division of the 2.
(robert1899, 15 April 2013 18:01)

Well it's a huge mistake by present day Greek politicians to accept a name for Fyrom which includes the noun" Macedonia".Macedonians were those who lived in ancient Macedonia and still reside in the area the ancient Kingdom occupied.What is now Fyrom was not part of Macedonia,it was Paeonia and just like Persia and Egypt they were part of the Macedonian empire.But you never hear an Egyptian or Iranian claiming to be Macedonians.Contrary to the deluded Fyromian claim that Macedonia was divided among three nations, the ancient Macedonia is in Greece where it belongs since the ancient Macedonians were Greeks.

Haitian, 15 April 2013 21:44)

It seems to me that you lack even elementary education.You seem to doubt the purity of the Greeks but can you name one nation in Europe which is ethnically pure?Nevertheless,the Greek trajectory is well documented through history and archaeology which confirms the linguistic and cultural links between the modern and ancient Greeks.

Fyrom hasn't got any valid claim to the name of Macedonia. Fyromians never inhabited the region of ancient Macedonia for mainly two reasons.Firstly,the area Fyrom occupies today was called Paeonia and secondly Fyrom's Slavic ancestors arrived in the area 1000 years after when the area was ruled by the Romans.

As to your comment about the Albanians being similar to ancient Greeks one has to decide whether to laugh or cry.Albanians are not indigenous to the Balkans and by all indications they have arrived from another place,probably Turkey.

Unlike the Albanians who believe whole-heartedly in the elitist project called EU I've always been of the opinion that it's lifespan will be short-lived.Therefore,Albanian and Fyromian dreams of becoming EU members will remain dreams of a summer night.

My proposal: Stop with this nonsense. The name of the country is Macedonia. No poblem! Stop wasting time on this non-issue!
(Ron, 15 April 2013 20:18)

Nonsense Ron?What right do Fyromians have to usurp a foreign Macedonian name and use it as their own and on top of that have the stupidity and audacity to claim they are the modern descendants of the ancient ones when its well documented both archaelogically and historically that their ancestors arrived in the Balkans 1000 years after ancient Macedonia became a Roman province?

Fyrom's dilemma is self-inflicted by appropriating a historical name belonging to Greece and is forcing Gruevski and posters like Peter to make territorial and cultural claims that are unfounded in order to comply with their propaganda.

Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic.We simply object to usurpation of a historical and geographical name which is part of Hellenism.The Balkan wars fought against the Bulgarians were in order to protect this territory and is within the living memory of all Greeks.

(Peter, 15 April 2013 20:24)

The essence of your comment surpasses by miles the usual nationalistic nonsense aired by Albanian posters.There wasn't any country called Mecedonia inhabited by Macedonians in 1913.However,there was a geographic area called Macedonia occupied by the Ottoman empire and the link below confirms this.

http://www2.units.it/storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg

I would recommend to you and your compatriots to stop visiting sites like the poisonous Maknews and Mina and instead visit well known public libraries and I am certain you will find who you really are.

the ancient Macedonians were Greeks.
(Leonidas, 15 April 2013 19:28)

You mean that Ancient Macedonians were Ancient Greeks, which are ethnically entirely different to contemporary Greeks.

Just like Ancients Bulgars (Turkic people) are different to contemporary Bulgarians (Slavic people).

The Republic of Macedonia has a stronger claim to the name 'Macedonia' than Greece as Ancient Greeks are similar to present day Albanians and Albanians live in Macedonia.

Leonidas, you do realize that whatever name Macedonia chooses, it will revert back to the Republic of Macedonia once it is in the EU and NATO. Then Greece can run crying to the ICJ for a non-binding opinion.

I personally think the name should be slavomacedonia which best describes the majority of inhabitants of fyrom.it also describes their language and culture.

Upper Republic of Macedonia is fine as long as Greece names occupied Aegean Macedonia as Southern Macedonia,and in the mean time recognizes the indigenous Macedonian minority.This way,the 20 year old Greek problem will be solved.Republic of Macedonia has the right to be called Republic of Macedonia.Republic of Macedonia and(Geographic Macedonia)is Macedonian territory in all four partitioned areas for centuries.France and Germany must come out clean,and tell the world why did they partitioned Macedonia illegally in 1913.

How about the Republic of Western Bulgaria? or Fake People's Republic of Vardavska or Albanian People's Failed Statelet of Gruevskistan?

My proposal: Stop with this nonsense. The name of the country is Macedonia. No poblem! Stop wasting time on this non-issue!

Here is a proposal - how about the Republic of Macedonia (ROM)?
KOSO

Exactley! I guess a people that are a mix of bulgarians, turks, gypsies, albanians and serbs are to proud to be called the Rupublic of Macedonia. Because of that they are standing last to join the EU.

Well with macedonia's long name dispute problem solved, macedonia will be able to start accession negotiations soon, meaning that serbia, montenegro and macedonia will start negotiations together, and probably finish together and join the EU together. Albania and bosnia have yet so much work to do, so they can join together later..

How about "The Republic Of 42°0′N, 21°26′E", for now, you cant argue with geography!!
,,,and in 20 years or less, when the Albanians become the absolute majority, forever, and you skopljens are scratching your heads and wondering how the hell you lost your name and country and wishing you stayed in a union with Serbia, it can be named "The Republic of Eastern Albania" or "The Republic Of Albanian Macedonia", or whatever else the Albanians decide to name it.
,,,just a friendly suggestion from your Serbian neighbours who respectfully recognize the democratically elected rulers of "42°0′N, 21°26′E" now and in the future. :))

(bulgar of ohrid, 16 April 2013 01:16)

Any connection you make between the ancient Macedonians and Fyromians is laughable.The time when Bulgars arrived in the Balkans is well documented by world renown historians(google Robin Lane-Fox).

I did send a link below showing the ethnic composition of the various Ottoman Vilaets as recorded by the Ottoman themselves and your ancestors haven't been around for thousands of years.

Leonidas...

Read in between the lines, u r not listening...

1) the slavs of fyrom r Bulgarian
2) but if they want to call their country Macedonia then it's they God given rite to do so.

All IM saying is that u or ur kind can't claim sole ownership of antiguity, nor can fyrom, but u are free to call urself or believe what ever u like but u can not impose ur views or vice versa, live and let live, the argument is silly and racist... Get over it no one wants ur precious country.. Don't loose sleep over nothing..

Read in between the lines, u r not listening...

1) the slavs of fyrom r Bulgarian
2) but if they want to call their country Macedonia then it's they God given rite to do so.

All IM saying is that u or ur kind can't claim sole ownership of antiguity, nor can fyrom, but u are free to call urself or believe what ever u like but u can not impose ur views or vice versa, live and let live, the argument is silly and racist... Get over it no one wants ur precious country.. Don't loose sleep over nothing..
(bulgar of ohrid, 16 April 2013 10:36)

Since we both agree that Fyromians are ethnic Bulgarians and since the ancient kingdom of Macedonia lies within Greece why should Greeks share ownership with Fyromians?My comments are not racist but pragmatic, no country has the right to fabricate history in order to create its own.

BTW Your census statistics cannot be accepted in the absence of source quotation.

"A mediator in the Macedonia name dispute, that has been ongoing for 20 years now, has reportedly suggested "the Upper Republic of Macedonia" as a solution.... The suggestion, reportedly insisted on by Skopje, would be acceptable to Greece "if the geographical determinant were to be placed before the word 'Macedonia', and not in front of the word 'Republic'." "

----------------------------

If 'Upper' is to be in it's name, it should be in front of the noun 'Macedonia' and not the adjective 'Republic'. When 'Republic' is used in a state's official name, it is an adjective describing the type of country it is, which is a Republic. But what is an "Upper Republic"? It doesn't make sense.

The adjective 'Upper' has been suggested to be included in the state's official name to describe which part of Geographical Macedonia the state is referring to, which is the northern part of of Macedonia aka 'Upper Macedonia'. This is why it makes sense to call the country the "Republic of Upper Macedonia" and not the "Upper Republic of Macedonia" as it is a Republic in the Northern part of Macedonia.

If the adjective "Upper" is before the word "Republic", it appears as if it is describing the type of Republic it is and I have no idea what an "Upper Republic" could be.

If it were up to me, it should be called the "Republic of Vardar Macedonia", the Greek region should be called "Aegean Macedonia" and the Bulgarian region should be called "Pirin Macedonia".

Here is a proposal - how about the Republic of Macedonia (ROM)?


Kthanksbai!

Upper Republic of Macedonia...What country in the world would stoop so low that they would even consider such a name. These people as a race have no patriotism, no passion no anything...! The only reason they are still in Skpoje is because peasant Tito gave them Paprika to live off.

(Reader, 16 April 2013 00:28)

Let me answer your question with another question.Had Fyrom chosen the name of Republic of Bavaria instead of Macedonia as its constitutional name can you imagine the Germans recognising them? I don't think so,why should Greeks be any different?

Maybe Greece should be recognised as the "former Ottoman region of Hellas"?
(Ian, UK, 16 April 2013 13:32)

The title of"former Ottoman" is more applicable to other Balkan countries since they were under the Ottomans for considerable time longer than Greece.The title of "former" is even more applicable to Britain,"Former Roman,Anglo-Saxon,Viking,Norman Republic".Have you ever bothered to ask why the British speak English rather than British?The answer is simple and shameful as it is,the English language contains few words attributable to the original inhabitants of the British isles.It's a mishmash of Latin,Greek,German,Norse and French,the only word that is likely to be British is "maggot".The English treatment of the early British people,language and culture has been contemptible from the start,so what right have you got to call yourselves British? Absolutely none.

I don't understand the Greeks demand for a geographic identifier in the name. To me if there is an Upper or Northern Macedonia, It means there is a Lower or Southern Macedonia; 2 parts of 1 whole. Ex: North and South Korea are the same people, same as East and West Germany. I think Greece would be better served if they referred to there province as, as "Provincial Macedonia". It would be a more clear division of the 2.

Let me answer your question with another question.Had Fyrom chosen the name of Republic of Bavaria instead of Macedonia as its constitutional name can you imagine the Germans recognising them? I don't think so,why should Greeks be any different?
(Leonidas, 16 April 2013 10:22)

Germany would recognise it as the 'Republic of Bavaria' if it were located in a geographical region called Bavaria. The same way Iran recognises Azerbaijan as the "Republic of Azerbaijan" without getting in a fit over it's name, saying that the name lays claim to Iran's provinces of the same name.

The Republic of Macedonia is entirely located in the geographical region of Macedonia and this is where it takes it's name from.

I think France should be like Greece and refuse to recognise the UK as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" because we use the name 'Britain' in our full name and everyone knows that Britain is a province in France which also goes by the name of 'Brittany' or 'Little Britain'.

Maybe Greece should be recognised as the "former Ottoman region of Hellas"?

Get over it no one wants ur precious country.. Don't loose sleep over nothing..
(bulgar of ohrid, 16 April 2013 10:36)

Really? If that's so then why did your compatriots (the Bulgarians) invade and occupy eastern Macedonia and Thrace during WW2 alongside the powers of Axis? If noone wants our precious country then why do you have to steal parts of its precious history and present them as your own? If noone wants our precious country then why do you usurpate our precious symbols? Can you tell me how many balkan countries have the two-headed eagle as a national symbol? Why can't you create symbols of your own? So don't tell me that noone wants my precious country because the Slavs have been having wet dreams about precious Thessaloniki since the 6th century AD when they set foot on the Balkans.

Leonides u come across as paranoid, u repeat the same staff over and over again.
1) the slavs of Macedonia are culturally linguistically Slav
2) a portion of ancient Macedonia is found in fyrom
3) all todays Balkan people have partially DNA relating to the ancient Balkan people
4) can u prove ur Blood line contains more ancient Macedonian than the fyroms?
5) does speaking modern Greek mean u are Greek? If so are the slavic speakers of Greece Greek or slav?

Let's be honest 105 years ago 80 Percent of agean macedonia was slav, with
The Balkan wars, the persecution of slavs, Greek Civil war which resulted in the expulsion of 100 000 slavs, assimilation and the arrival of gReeks from Asia minor, greeks have only now become an absolutE majority.. Hence where can u trace if roots from lEonidez? Macedonia.
Or Asia minor,btw IM Bulgarian but my ancestors have been living in geogrAphical Macedonia for thousands of years.

(Leonidas, 16 April 2013 15:01)

Don't forget Danish, Old English was pretty much identical to Old Danish. The English language has also adopted many Welsh, Cornish and Gaelic words too. Even Japanese words have entered the English language such as 'tycoon'. And there are tons of English words of Indian origin too, but this is only natural as languages are constantly changing and evolving.

But then again there are thousands of Greek words of English origin. When you don't have a Greek word for something, you take an English word and you 'Greek-ify' it. But that is only natural because languages are constantly changing and evolving.

We don't speak the British Language as it is extinct. In around 600 AD it transformed into Old Welsh, Cornish, Cumbric and Breton. The English language is the language which developed, evolved and formed in England (and to a certain extent Scotland) from many other languages. Some British people speak languages other than English such as Welsh (which I can speak a bit of), Cornish, Gaelic, Scots and Irish.

The word 'maggot' comes from the Anglo-Norman word 'maddock' meaning worm.

What right have I got to call myself British? I'm born and bred in Britain. I'm part Welsh and Cumbric (Brythonic Celts) on my mother's side and Scottish (Gael and Pictish Celts) on my father's side. Some of my ancestors have been in this land for thousands of years.

Macedonia is not the western democratic process a wounderful thing, negotiating your name to please others, what would Goce Delchev say.
Your most recent ancesters fought and died to aid in the formation of a yugoslav republic that for the first time in moderen history guaranteed your existance and your languange and you honour their memory and sacrifice by negotiating what they fought for. Be proud of your accomplishments as an independant nation strong in the fact that over 130 nations currently address you as The Republic of Macedonia and that brotherhood and unity still exists.

This offered solution isn't going to please anyone, and after being humiliated by Germany in the bailout, Greece isn't going to play nice on this one. The problem with the EU is its purpose is to be a good will union between European nations, but it has no good will and relies on force and threats. If Germany failed, no one would bail them out. The EU barely survived, and has not recovered from the last recession. If another recession happens, it might survive but it won't look like it does now.

"Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic"

That may be true Leonidas. Still, I cannot imagine how a country can 'own' a name. A name is not a purse, one does not own it, one shouts it. Can you clarify this 'name ownership' concept, if you will? How can a country 'own' a name? It seems like something at the limits of fetishism has been elevated to national policy. Greek position is fetishistic. It is just as incomprehensible to me as the claim that current Macedonians are the descendants of the ancient ones.

this dispute is one of the most trivial that I can think of. why shouldn't Macedonia be called Macedonia? When did Greece decide to make a copyright claim on that name? you can do nothing but laugh at Balkan nonsense

Thanisis

We do have our own symbols... The lion... Or does that too belong to someone else?

Once again, not only do the Greek prefer to impose their will over others, you now are thinking for us.

If it wasn't for the western powers, plus Serbia, today we wouldn't be chatting about Macedonia today on b92. Macedonia was given to modern Greece and populated by greeks from turkey. And as for wet dreams, google the megalo Greek pipe dreams..

Be realistic, I repeat no

Leonides

Vilayet of Manastiri as of 1912
Christian Bulgarians - 331,000
Muslim Albanians - 219,000
Orthodox Vlachs - 65,000
Orthodox Greeks - 62,000
Mixed - 35,000
Muslim Bulgarians - 24,000
Muslim Turks - 11,500

Solinika as of 1890

Had 55 000 Jews
26 000 Jews
16 000 Greeks
10 000 Bulgars



Also don't forget that the greeks referred to Bulgars as being greek occasionally, solely based the fact that the greeks set up a church in a Slavic town, the greeks had set up churchs in many Slavic towns in an effort to convert the locals and bring them under there influence, eg towns such has prilep, kratovo.. basically towns that had zero greeks in them... to cut a long story short, greeks exaggerated their figures for propaganda purposes, the church was at the forefront of this hellenic policy

Other relevant vilayets kosovo

Muslim Albanians - 418,000
Christian Bulgarians - 250,000
Orthodox Serbs - 113,000
Mixed - 22,000
Muslim Bulgarians - 14,000
Muslim Turks - 9,000
Orthodox Vlachs - 900
Orthodox Greeks - 200


Anyway Leonides, if you want to be constructive, do a survey of Agean Macedonia on whos ancestors arrived from Turkey(asia minor) pontians or Pontiacs what ever u call them

Leonides

IM not claiming links to the ancient Macedonians, but the fact of the matter is that us slavs have a long affiliation with geographical Macedonia, 1600 years or so, my father is from Patagonia.. Hence us slavs go a long way back, up until 100 years ago there were more of us than greeks.. Thus if futon don't want to join bulgaria then so be it..

There can be only one name and that is Macedonia. Macedonia never belonged to the league of Corinth as did all of the Greek city states. Macedonia was already a separate nation and country. The distinction between the 2 was always mutually recognized by both nations from the very beginning. Any argument to the contrary is just silly. Regardless of the fact of when the Slavic influence became a major factor, if and when they arrived they did not change the name of the country and became one with the land. The logic is simple...If the Greeks were so proud of our name, which they claim for their own, they would have never agreed to be called Greeks or Hellenes back in 1821 and would have demanded to be called Macedonians. however they can not do this or even claim this simply because they are not Macedonians and do not want to be Macedonians. They only want the land. From day one they should have refused to be called Greece and opted for our name Macedonia. But you will never here a true Macedonian refer to himself or herself as anything but Macedonian. We know who we are and where we came from and who our forefathers were. We do not need any other nation to dictate to us our name or culture or nationality.

How about republic of macedonia. No properganda here. Macedonians for the macedonians. Bulgars and greeks working together to find a name resolution for the macedonians. Makes me laugh . worry about your own country. We are macedonians not bulgars or greeks or anything else. There are so many facts that are well documented that todays macedonians were and are a separate nation and have links and ties to ancient macedonians.slavs arriving in the balkans in the 6th century is a theory and thats all. But new evidence suugests that slavic tribes were dwelling in the north of of macedonia, dardania. You guys only have one vision to rewrite history so you have claims to macedonian lands and wipe macedonians out entirely.

Dr. Igor Janev became well-known for his scholarly article: "Legal Aspects of the use of a Provisional Name for Macedonia in the United Nations system" published by the famous American Journal of International Law (Vol. 93, No. 1, 1999), where he had proved that the "provisional name" for a State is illegal in the International Law. AJIL is a leading journal in the (scientific) field of Int. Law. His arguments of illegality of the provisional name (namely "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or the "FYROM" for Macedonia) in International Law and, consequently, his Strategy of the establishing the Macedonian name and resistance to the change (or negotiations) of the official (Constitutional) State name ("Republic of Macedonia") in the United Nations (in the well-known UN established process for the Name-negotiations with the Greece opposing the Macedonian Name) were officially accepted by the Macedonian Government. Particularly, Janev's Strategy for the establishing the Macedonian name in the UN was accepted by the President of Macedonia Gjorge Ivanov.