20th anniversary of kidnapping, murder of Muslims

Aha this was a paramilitary unit not a terrorist group. Kill 19 people and you're a paramilitary unit. Serbs can't commit terrorist acts, they are angels.

What? How can this be? I thought all non-Serbs were treated like Gods and Kings in Kosovo pre-1998.

I think I might write something along the lines of what Peggy says.

Peggy are you going to comment on this?
Zoran are you going to comment on this?
Ari Gold are you going to comment on this?

How long do I have to give you before I can call you "cowards" for not posting a comment on such an article?

"...selective justice..."

selective justice my behind! its no one's fault serbs committed more crimes than other people in ex Yugoslavia.

Ian, This story isn't about Kosovo, but about Bosnia, but your point still stands.

These people were taken off the train in the multicultural paradise of Serbia, then taken to Bosnia and killed.

I guess someone will call me an Albanian or Croat now for pointing out the obvious again.

Ian,Don't hold your breath for the day that the Croatian government investigates or commemorates the murder of Serb civilians in Croatia.

(Zoran, 27 February 2013 13:06)

Croats committed war crimes against Serbs and Bosniaks in the Yugoslav Wars, I have never denied that. This why why there are plenty of Croats behind bars for the crimes they comitted. Look at this list of Croats indicted by the ICTY alone.

Bruno Stojić currently on trial.
Ivica Rajić sentenced 12 years.
Vinko Martinović sentenced 18 years.
Dario Kordić sentenced 25 years.
Zdravko Mucić sentenced 9 years.
Paško Ljubičić transfered to national courts by ICTY, sentenced 10 years.
Milivoj Petković currently on trial.
Valentin Ćorić currently on trial.
Tihomir Blaškić sentenced 9 years.
Jadranko Prlić currently on trial.
Slobodan Praljak currently on trial.
Mario Čerkez sentenced 6 years.
Drago Josipović senteced 12 years.
Vladimir Šantić sentenced 18 years.
Miroslav Bralo sentenced 20 years.
Anto Furundžija sentenced 10 years.
Mladen "Tuta" Naletilić sentenced 20 years.
Mirko Norac transfered to national courts by ICTY, sentenced 7 years.
Zlatko Aleksovski sentenced 7 years.
Dražen Erdemović sentenced 5 years.
Janko Bobetko died before sentencing.
Stipo Alilović died before sentencing.

There are hundreds more Croats who have been dealt with by national courts.

Many more Serbs have been aquitted/ had their indiciments withdrawn by the ICTY compared to Croats, Bosniaks, K-Albanians put together.

So much for that myth you call "selective justice". Obviously stating the truth makes me a "Serb hater".

Serbia look yourself in the mirror...

To all albanians:

This was a criminal act, no doubt. But it happend during a period of war. In Kosovo we have killings, kidnappings, desecration of graveyards/churches during times of peace. Now YOU look yourselves in the mirror.

Poor Albanians and their supporters... we have never claimed to be angles and we have always admitted that Serbs have committed crimes, which is normal in all wars.

What we are saying is that all sides committed crimes and that this selective justice being served by NATO and NATO nations does not go well with Serbs and prevents reconciliation. All we are getting from the current agenda and policies is deeper divisions and more hatred, which is quite obvious on these forums alone.

So there is not much to be said except that these crimes and it seems justice is served but again, it is selective justice.

Now Ian, it was only last week that the former interior minister of Croatia admitted that Croatians were kidnapping Serbs and executing them and you are the one that hid behind a rock. No problems with Croatia arming terrorists from your point of view but when Croatia has committing hideous crimes, you go missing. You are a person of weak character, simple as that. Here is the article and no comments from you after Peggy even challenged you. Check -> http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2013&mm=02&dd=20&nav_id=84785

Now the difference here is that those responsible for this crime have been brought to justice but tell me, why are those responsible for kidnapping and murdering Serbs in Croatia still free? No need to answer that Ian, we know you are a Serb hater.

This is the aniversary, Robert. There's no official commemoration in Serbia, but you're probably right about Croatia.

However, Croatian activists have put up plaques in Knin to commemorate Serbian victims and this was reported on B92

There are a few normal people around the Balkans, after all

RIP

I'm not any group's "sympathizer" in particular, Zorane.

I'm just some guy, living in Belgrade, sitting at my computer, pointing out the obvious on occasion. For some reason, this makes some Australians cry sometimes.

I'm not stuck in some kind of ethnic-identity-categorization trap.

"But it happend during a period of war."

and this makes the murder of civilians OK?

(Ian's Pith Helmet, 27 February 2013 13:11)

It's really laughable to read comments posted by Ian and like-minded others condemning war crimes allegedly committed by other countries when their own ones hide millions of skeletons in their cupboards.It was only last week that Cameron on his trip to India apologised (a bit too late)for the massacre in Amritsar 100 years ago.At the same time his bankrupt country continues its military aggression in foreign countries and Cameron continues acting as a salesman for the UK billion pound arms industry.What about those brave British servicemen returning home from Iraq and bringing home their trophies(fingers of Iraqi prisoners)?

I'm not any group's "sympathizer" in particular, Zorane.

I'm just some guy, living in Belgrade, sitting at my computer, pointing out the obvious on occasion. For some reason, this makes some Australians cry sometimes.

I'm not stuck in some kind of ethnic-identity-categorization trap.
(Danilo, 27 February 2013 13:40)
--
You are just your average racist who dislikes Serbs. I think that is fairly obvious (at least to most). As for other nationals far away or close, I don't think most even know or care about Serbian and the surrounding politics.

Serbia is punishing their own for crimes commited during the war. Croats, muslims and primarily albanians are not. That is the difference between serbs and everyone else in the balkans.

oh no I did, however, I do no not think desecrating graves (despicable though it is) compares to the murder of civilians on a mass scale. frankly genocide denial is a lot worse (as your president does with Srebrenica)

I guess someone will call me an Albanian or Croat now for pointing out the obvious again.
(Danilo, 27 February 2013 12:43)
--
Don't think you are a Croat or Albanian, just one of their sympathisers. You don't waste a minute to comment when a Serbian crime appears but you go missing when crimes against Serbs appear. Just an obvious observation that you dislike Serbs.

MikeC: "This was a criminal act, no doubt. But it happend during a period of war. In Kosovo we have killings, kidnappings, desecration of graveyards/churches during times of peace."


There was no war in Sandjak in 1993. You Serbs have tried very hard to argue that Serbia was not involved in the war.

Second, what kidnappings has happened in Kosova in the times of peace? Do you compare the desecration of graveyards and school fistfights with massacres of this scale?

Danilo is modern Serbian patriot who refuses to protect crocks in the mane of Serbism.

(ben, 27 February 2013 17:57)

Actually he is Croatian.

Ian,

Before you jump the gun let me tell you:

There's a mistake in the article. The crime took place in Štrpci, Bosnia -not in Štrpce, Kosovo. Kidnapping of 19 citizens of Serbia and Montenegro from the Belgrade-Bar train and murdering them is a well known crime, known as Štrpci massacre, and not disputed by anyone, but it's still mainly unsolved. Perpetrators are known as Višegrad Brigade (of Republika Srpska Army) members.

I have noticed that you have some personal problem with Serbia. From my experience I can reveal you that Serbia or Serbian people are no better nor worse than other countries or people of the Balkans. In this sense you are pretty one eyed in your choice of discussions and in your views in them. But, once again, you don't differ much if at all of most commentators here.

So much for that myth you call "selective justice". Obviously stating the truth makes me a "Serb hater".
(Ian, UK, 27 February 2013 13:49)
--
Now take your list plus sentences and compare that with Serbs who committed similar crimes. Now see the difference? Serbs are getting 10 years more for the same crime. Also, out of your list, how many of those committed crimes against Serbs and how many against Bosnian Muslims? Also, check out Oric, Gotovina and Haradinaj and you'll see despicable war criminals walking freely.

As your NATO court keeps telling us, there were definitely crimes committed against Serbs but they just can't seem to find who is responsible. What a joke eh!?

Now lets look at the difference here. This is a crime that Serbians committed and we can see Serbs condemning such crimes, seeking justice and admitting it causes shame to our people. No problems or doubts there. We do not see the same coming from our angels - Albanians, Croatians and Bosnian Muslims. They are too busy covering-up their crimes and paying public relations firms to give them a clean name. Read that article I linked to, the former Croatian interior minister even justifies kidnapping and killing Serbs. He doesn't see anything wrong with that. This is the mentality we are dealing with when it comes to NATO, Croatia, Albanians and Bosnian Muslims. That it why there will be no reconciliation until they come clean on their crimes.

And Ian, you are part of that group.

Just follow the civilized british example and everything will be fine.

Kenya: Hide documents of extra-judicial killings and torture for 60 years in an unused office.

The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/28/mau-mau-rewrite-history-british-empire

Paying off slave owners on abolition to the equivalent tune of billions of pounds, ancestors of the current PM benefiting:

The Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-colonial-shame-slaveowners-given-huge-payouts-after-abolition-8508358.html


It must be a bugger being british.

If Croatia wasn't trying to joining Germany, sorry, the EU, then I doubt we would have heard anything about taking their own responsibility for war crimes. Even then, they essentially get a free pass in to the EU because of German sponsorship.

(Wee Kelpie, 27 February 2013 16:56)

In your deluded mind all British soldiers are innocent.Enjoy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/20/iraq-abu-ghraib-prison-detainees-torture-us-troops

http://www.newsrt.co.uk/news/afghan-man-was-tortured-in-jail-after-uk-troops-handed-him-over-235206.html

http://www.theinternational.org/articles/335-iraqi-allegations-of-torture-by-british-t

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023701/British-soldier-cut-Taliban-fighters-fingers-macabre-souvenir-hunt.html

You don't waste a minute to comment when a Serbian crime appears
(Zoran, 27 February 2013 13:21)

Perhaps because he loves his country and wants to see her clean and honest with its criminal past??

Danilo is modern Serbian patriot who refuses to protect crocks in the mane of Serbism.

You on the other hand are a miserable chetnick stuck in the medieval culture and values and consider the killing of disarmed people as bravery and patriotism.

Leon the Greek strikes again. If you're so anti-West why don't you pay back your debts and be done with EU. Align yourself with your brethren the Turks and other Asiatic peoples.

We certanily don't need a deadbeat to lecture us on anything!!!
It falls on dead ears, don't you think?

As a Serb I have no problem in stating that this was a henious crime and it brings a shame to us, such acts only harmed the Serbian war effort.

So there I a Serb am not denying this crime and am honest to say it was hideous. What we have though is that while we can admit this horrible event took place reported crimes committed by albanians for example are left with nothing but denial and claim of propaganda in the comments on this site. It is like Zoran said, crimes were committed by all sides in the conflicts, but the question lies as to who is guilty.

We have Ian who jumps on this like a hyena though he is either silent or looks for empty excuses of doubt when the story is raised about crimes committed by others. Then we have Danilo, who I do suspect is a Serb (though possibly a self-hating one) who also can always be found commenting on articles about crimes committed by Serbs though is nowhere to be heard when the subject is about albanian/croat/bosnian muslim crimes. I must ask though Danilo why is this? There is nothing wrong in condemning crimes universally though you are only here when the subject is about crimes committed by Serbs. Perhaps you think that if your attitude was taken by the entire Serbian population, condemning all Serbian crimes but none by others, then Serbia's EU accession would be quicker. So please if you don't mind, why are you always silent or in denial when the story concerns crimes committed by non-Serbs?

"But it happend during a period of war."
and this makes the murder of civilians OK?
(Nikolle, 27 February 2013 14:56)
--
The *Big* difference here is that Serbs are condemning such crimes.

The US/NATO is doing the same but covering it up. Check -> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/24/afghanistan-us-special-forces-civilian-death
Croatians were doing the same but justifying it as acceptable. Check -> http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2013&mm=02&dd=20&nav_id=84785

And as we know, Albanians are doing it even today. How many Serbs are murdered each year without the perpetrator being found?

Leon the Greek strikes again. If you're so anti-West why don't you pay back your debts and be done with EU. Align yourself with your brethren the Turks and other Asiatic peoples.

We certanily don't need a deadbeat to lecture us on anything!!!
It falls on dead ears, don't you think?
(cry me a river, 27 February 2013 19:35)

I must've a hit a nerve with the Albanian crowd here.As a matter of fact it is you the Turks call brothers ,you're the same people,same religion,like the Italian idiom una fatsa una ratsa.After all there are another 5 million of Albanians living in Turkey.

Nothing personal,my issue with Albanians is they are refusing to see reality and accept it and instead choosing to live in dreams that a dictator made up for them(Illyrian,Dadanian,Martian etc).If I were you I would do some research and you could be surprised find out that you have no connections with the Balkans at all and you're relatively new settlers.Read Trajan's dispaches to Roman Senate while setting the eastern borders of the Roman Empire:

http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/MedievalHistory/Bury/Roman_Empire/From-Principate-to-death-of-Marcus-Aurelius/24/4-CONQUESTS-IN-THE-EAST.html

http://wschulze.userweb.mwn.de/Udigen1.htm

http://wschulze.userweb.mwn.de/Cauc_alb.htm

BTW This site is a Serbian and not an Albanian one and if you don't like my comments you can comment somewhere else.

Sytematic abuse by british soldiers in Iraq

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/30/iraq-torture-allegations-uk-military-investigations-reopened

The government is still denying it. The higher the pedestal, the further there is to fall.

"As your NATO court keeps telling us, there were definitely crimes committed against Serbs but they just can't seem to find who is responsible. What a joke eh!?"

Zoran, you still have not figured out that it is not a NATO but a UN court, huh? Set up by Russia and China, among others. With judges from all over the world. Once more Zoran, it is a UN court. Our dear "over my dead body" Jeremic will put it under discussion in April precisely because it is a UN court. Get it? Naaa, you don't want to get it.

memory eternal to all victims of all sides. May they never be forgotten, and may this never happen again.

"But it happend during a period of war."

and this makes the murder of civilians OK?
Nikolle

Did you read the rest of my comment or just what you wanted to read? You albanians and your selective memmory. Only seeing what you need to see to confirm you preprogrammed views of the world. You albs don't need war to terrorize and murder. You do it any way you can. I guess it just the way you are.

ian,
you said:
"Many more Serbs have been aquitted/ had their indiciments withdrawn by the ICTY compared to Croats, Bosniaks, K-Albanians put together."
which if properly read would suggest that many more serbs were falsly accused of crimes, and thusly sent to icty, that croats, bosniaks and k-albanians put together. simply put, serbs were accused at much higher rates than their neighbours, but their neighbours who were accused were more likely to actually be guilty.
perhaps if you considered that you might start to understand that there might be more than a grain of truth to some of the statements which you so much try to deflect by bringing a bunch of stats to the table, but you've unfortunately misunderstood the stats you bring.
in the last decade alone (lets not rehash the deep past) the queen's (and allies') armies are directly and indirectly responsible for more deaths and refugees than all of the balkan's wars, yet you venerable leaders, walk freely with their dirty noses high in the air.

What? How can this be? I thought all non-Serbs were treated like Gods and Kings in Kosovo pre-1998.

I think I might write something along the lines of what Peggy says.

Peggy are you going to comment on this?
Zoran are you going to comment on this?
Ari Gold are you going to comment on this?

How long do I have to give you before I can call you "cowards" for not posting a comment on such an article?
(Ian, UK, 27 February 2013 12:

I also remember when, you thought for many years, that Tony Blair was the English twin of Nietzsche's uberman, but he got religious on you and became Catholic and an accused bloody war criminal. Why, it was just the other day that you thought the Yankee Big Business, with their lobbying and advertising, brainwashed and scared the American people into believing in big-bad-governments, civil wars and other evils so that Big Business can sell them guns and laugh all the way to the bank. I bet you also think that an Arkansas Toothpick is a tall, skinny, American, white, trailer trash girl. You need real help son, and it was these here three people that "gently" guided you through all the crucial facts about your ex-worshiping idol Tony Blair.
I believe you owe these three folks some acknowledgement, and some gratitude, for their contributions to opening up your mind a little, and not try to feed your soul on those that have greatly suffered from your ex idol's evils.
What was the name of that professor of yours again--you know, the one from Maine?

oh no I did, however, I do no not think desecrating graves (despicable though it is) compares to the murder of civilians on a mass scale. frankly genocide denial is a lot worse (as your president does with Srebrenica)
(Nikolle, 27 February 2013 15:55)

Not even the ICTY nor mass media claim that they were 'civilians', preferring to use the phrase 'men and boys'. Can you tell the difference? So what then were they? Almost all soldiers of the ArBiH according to ArBiH documents. Even Mirsad Tocaka, head of the Research and Documentation Center in Sarajevo admits to this in previous interviews.

What an inconvenient truth for you.

What about those brave British servicemen returning home from Iraq and bringing home their trophies(fingers of Iraqi prisoners)?
(Leonidas, 27 February 2013 14:00)
Wow, I am shocked, the mere thought gives me the shivers. Fingers for trophies whatever next.
Is it true though? I would be grateful if you could provide a reference/source for this allegation, because thats all it is, and apretty sensational one at that.
The UK forces (Army in particular) have been dragged thru the media often for actions committed contrary to 'Rules of warfare'. Fingers for trophies, that one is new to me. Again, please provde credible source, and if true I will apologise accordingly

In your deluded mind all British soldiers are innocent.Enjoy:

[link]

[link]

[link]

[link]
(Leonidas, 27 February 2013 17:39)
First, whatever did you read in my comment that suggests that I am delusional? Kettle, pot, black comes to mind here!
British soldiers innocent? There’s bad in all armies, UK forces are no exception unfortunately.
Your links, Nothing new that I am not already familiar regarding first three.
The last link is interesting, today’s date hence why I am not familiar, so as promised I apologise.
Out of curiosity, you once lambasted me during a thread some months back, called me something along the lines of ‘right wing daily mail reading bigot’ !
Pray tell sir, what’s a good ‘guardianista’ reader like yourself doing reading the Daily fascist???
Not to mention quoting from it!
Enjoy!

"But it happend during a period of war."
and this makes the murder of civilians OK?
(Nikolle, 27 February 2013 14:56)
==========================

No it doesn't.
Someone is actually doing something about this, unlike in "Kosova" where it's open season on Serbs even today and nobody is ever investigated.

Bruno Stojić currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Ivica Rajić sentenced 12 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Vinko Martinović sentenced 18 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Dario Kordić sentenced 25 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Zdravko Mucić sentenced 9 years– CRIME AGAINST SERBS
Paško Ljubičić transfered to national courts by ICTY, sentenced 10 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Milivoj Petković currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Valentin Ćorić currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Tihomir Blaškić sentenced 9 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Jadranko Prlić currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Slobodan Praljak currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Mario Čerkez sentenced 6 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Drago Josipović senteced 12 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Vladimir Šantić sentenced 18 year – CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Miroslav Bralo sentenced 20 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Anto Furundžija sentenced 10 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Mladen "Tuta" Naletilić sentenced 20 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Mirko Norac transfered to national courts by ICTY, sentenced 7 years– CRIME AGAINST SERBS
Zlatko Aleksovski sentenced 7 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Dražen Erdemović sentenced 5 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Janko Bobetko died before sentencing– CRIME AGAINST SERBS
Stipo Alilović died before sentencing– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS

'Selective Justice'???

oh dear, give it up Leonidas, you're in danger of becoming as boring as that other historian on these boards, Bugar from Skopje.

no not really. i'm only trying to remember a thread that does not turn into the origin of Albanians, as if it matters in todays issues.
for what its worth though Leonidas, you have a very poor knowledge of history, one that has been sold to you by Greek priests

read it already :-) ! do you know what however, who cares where Albanians come from? what on earth does that have to do with anything?
(Nikolle, 28 February 2013 15:59)

Well,its got to do with a lot of things.Those Illyrian myths were manufactured in order to establish precedence over neighbouring countries ( Greeks,Slavs) and allow movements for independence and self-determination, as well as irredentist claims against those countries.

What I am saying is that Muslim Albanians and Arvanites are two different people with no connection.Orthodox Arvanites regard themselves as native and remnants of the old Greek settlements in South Albania whereas they regard the Muslim Albanians as settlers and Turkish descendants thus their hostility towards them.On a personal level I've got to admit that I was really surprised when I visited Agioi Saranta one summer and found out that virtually every one that I spoke to was speaking in Greek.Even the young ones back from Greece were dancing to the tunes of Greek music in the night clubs.

BTW I haven't seen yet any independent scholar making the connection between Albanian and Thracian, Dacian or Illyrian for lack of samples.Unless of course those connections are made by Albanians.

RIP. Hopefully the perpetrators are caught and punished.

For the commenters here, at least Serbia is doing something to punish their guilty. They are the ONLY ones in the Balkans that truly do this. Everyone else covers things up and throws a couple small fish away for 5 years. That is the difference in the region.

And for Albos....well they are a whole different breed of cowardly people.

Actually he is Croatian.
(Steve B., 27 February 2013 18:55)

Oh really?

Thanks for letting me know!

'Selective Justice'???
(milos, 27 February 2013 23:02)
--
Thanks Milos, so out of 22 Croat cases taken up by the NATO court, only 3 were related to crimes committed against Serbs. Looks like Ian got Busted again! LOL! Poor kid has had a hard time justifying himself lately.

(Wee kelpie, 27 February 2013 20:54)

Apologies accepted.

BTW The daily mail link was sent to me and I was surprised to see these news on the front page of an "Establishment" newspaper.

for what its worth though Leonidas, you have a very poor knowledge of history, one that has been sold to you by Greek priests
(Nikolle, 28 February 2013 11:09)

Indeed.I would've enriched my historical knowledge had I accepted Enver Hoxha's doctrine about the Illyrian origin of Albanians. We are Illyrians’and that’s that,nothing backed by historical or archelogical evidence.The only evidence of Illyrian evidence was manufactured by Hoxha with the forceful imposition of supposedly Illyrian names on the newly born Albanians.

Another Albanian poster below talks about Albanian anh Illyrian linguistic linkages.Well there isn't any.I would refer you to research carried out by the Austrian linguists Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger who tried reconstruct the origins of Albanian language.when they compared the few surviving fragments of Illyrian to Albanian , they had nothing in common.Matzinger said and I quote “The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”

If you're open-minded Nikolle read the book "The decline and fall of the Roman Empire" by Edward Gibbon written 250 years ago and also "Constantinople"by P Mansfied- He talks about Muslim migrations in the Balkans in the 16th Century.

"The decline and fall of the Roman Empire"

read it already :-) ! do you know what however, who cares where Albanians come from? what on earth does that have to do with anything?

nevertheless, now that you have opened up this discussion, are you now going to claim that those Muslims in the 16 century are todays Albanians? lets see, there are Catholic Albanians, Orthodox Albanians (though Greeks think they're Greek) and Muslim Albanians. The Albanian language is a classified Indo European one, with no connection to any of its immediate neighbors, this means, its not Greek, Slavic, Latin, Turkic, Germanic, Arabic...whatever. this is the reason why scholars today think its either Thracian, Dacian or Illyrian. oddly enough, the Arvanite language derives from the Tosk dialect, which is why even I as a Gheg Albanian understand Arvanite without ever having studied it. then there is the Arberesh community in Italy. this is all fact, not fiction.

Zoran: I would be very surprised if Danilo's dislike of Serbs is borne out of racism, not least as he is in all likelihood part of the same race as you are. His national background may be different but that is another thing altogether. Will we be reading about the 25th, 30th, 35th, 40th anniversaries of this and other events from the 1990s or will we at some point focus on the future? Perhaps there will simply be a 'Victims Day' each year when all those who died during the conflicts can be remembered and people on all sides act with respect and dignity. Maybe I am just have an airborne swine moment.

I must've a hit a nerve with the Albanian crowd here
Leonidas.

Not always and certainly not all Albanians. I do occasionally give you the thump up.

Someone is actually doing something about this, unlike in "Kosova" where it's open season on Serbs even today and nobody is ever investigated.
(Peggy, 27 February 2013 21:24)

Peggy you risk becoming another “Martinovic Case” victim. When you write you remind me the farmer from Gjilan, --..-- Dordje Martinovic. I am sure you remember him!!!

Sorry guys I did not know how to create a link in B92 but if interested read it.

Dordje Martinovic case.

Leonidas! Caucasian Agvania, or Aluania, which derived from the Alpans mountain has nothing to do with present Albania. Udi language might be similar to Armenian or Azeri, or mixed with hebrew, but "shqipe" language has nothing to do with it. We, The Albanians call ourselves "Shqiptare". We call our country "Shqiperia". Around 4 million Arvanites in Greece might explain to you where do they come from. Vasilis Rafaelides, a Greek linguist wrote in 1974, that "if you move any ordinary rock in Greece, you will hear the Albanian language from underneath". Explain to me, why many Illyrian words have meaning only in the Albanian language? The name Lissus derives from "Lesh", (which in Albanian means 'wool"; today city of "Lezhe", Dimal- in modern Albanian language is "Dy mal", equal to "two mountains". The word itself "Illyr"- in Albanian is "I lire", means "free man". King Hyllus, the first king of Illyria- his name you can find it even today in Albanian_ "Ylli"-means "star". The grave "tumula", exists even today in our language "tu mulu"- "e mbuluar". There is not any source that "Shqiptaret" came from Aguania. From 6 million population, most of the men are called "Bardhyl", "Taulant", "Genti", "Ylli", "Agron", or female "Teuta". Mention please another nation in the world who could use so often the Illyrian names.
I doubt this is the right page to write for the origin of the Albanians. Get a dictionary and compare it with "Udi" language and you will feel sorry for yourself.

read this carefully, what Arvanites consider themselves does not matter to me, they're still left with the fact that I a Gheg Albanian, not even a Tosk one, understand their language without ever having the need to study it. now there's three possibilities here; 1) they adopted Albanian, 2) Albanians adopted Arvanite or the most logical, Arvanite derives from Albanian. of course, I am not going to claim that Arvanites are Albanian, because thats as stupid as claiming that the Arbanasi of Croatia are Albanian (they have Albanian heritage, it doesn't make them Albanians however).
now, if you want to disagree with linguists that have Albanian classified Indo-European, be my guest, enroll in the institute of Albanology and show where they are wrong, no one is stopping you. until you publish your own scholarly however, you're still left with the fact that what I wrote before is true.

Perhaps there will simply be a 'Victims Day' each year when all those who died during the conflicts can be remembered and people on all sides act with respect and dignity. Maybe I am just have an airborne swine moment.
(ned taylor, 27 February 2013 22:55)
--
Great idea about "Victim's Day" but seems the region would have to reconcile before something like that occurred. We'd need all sides coming clean, which could have been achieved with a truth and reconciliation commission.

As we know, NATO wanted to play a warped version of victor's justice, which backfired instead. Doesn't look like we will be reconciling anytime soon. The NATO court has just divided us even further.

oh dear, give it up Leonidas, you're in danger of becoming as boring as that other historian on these boards, Bugar from Skopje.
(Nikolle, 27 February 2013 23:46)

Did I hit a nerve with you nicolle? I was merely answering your friend "cry me a river" unless of course you're his double.

BTW I've never pretended to be a historian but at least my historical knowledge is backed by facts not fiction.

Hey Ian only one of those croats that you list was sentenced because he committed crimes against serbs and that is Mirko Norac that was transferred to croatia and immediately when he came back to Croatia they aquitted him and released him without even a day served in prison.

@ Leonidas, 27 February 2013 21:27)

In order to have full pictures of albo also we have original albos left in Sicily location, must be counted on them! please.
(George Maniakes com with albo people in the Balkan in 11 century).
Balkan Albo is product of Turks Arnaut and part of Sicilian mafia
In other word our Balkan albos is master slave for big power..

Aha this was a paramilitary unit not a terrorist group. Kill 19 people and you're a paramilitary unit. Serbs can't commit terrorist acts, they are angels.

What? How can this be? I thought all non-Serbs were treated like Gods and Kings in Kosovo pre-1998.

I think I might write something along the lines of what Peggy says.

Peggy are you going to comment on this?
Zoran are you going to comment on this?
Ari Gold are you going to comment on this?

How long do I have to give you before I can call you "cowards" for not posting a comment on such an article?

(Zoran, 27 February 2013 13:06)

Croats committed war crimes against Serbs and Bosniaks in the Yugoslav Wars, I have never denied that. This why why there are plenty of Croats behind bars for the crimes they comitted. Look at this list of Croats indicted by the ICTY alone.

Bruno Stojić currently on trial.
Ivica Rajić sentenced 12 years.
Vinko Martinović sentenced 18 years.
Dario Kordić sentenced 25 years.
Zdravko Mucić sentenced 9 years.
Paško Ljubičić transfered to national courts by ICTY, sentenced 10 years.
Milivoj Petković currently on trial.
Valentin Ćorić currently on trial.
Tihomir Blaškić sentenced 9 years.
Jadranko Prlić currently on trial.
Slobodan Praljak currently on trial.
Mario Čerkez sentenced 6 years.
Drago Josipović senteced 12 years.
Vladimir Šantić sentenced 18 years.
Miroslav Bralo sentenced 20 years.
Anto Furundžija sentenced 10 years.
Mladen "Tuta" Naletilić sentenced 20 years.
Mirko Norac transfered to national courts by ICTY, sentenced 7 years.
Zlatko Aleksovski sentenced 7 years.
Dražen Erdemović sentenced 5 years.
Janko Bobetko died before sentencing.
Stipo Alilović died before sentencing.

There are hundreds more Croats who have been dealt with by national courts.

Many more Serbs have been aquitted/ had their indiciments withdrawn by the ICTY compared to Croats, Bosniaks, K-Albanians put together.

So much for that myth you call "selective justice". Obviously stating the truth makes me a "Serb hater".

Serbia look yourself in the mirror...

Ian, This story isn't about Kosovo, but about Bosnia, but your point still stands.

These people were taken off the train in the multicultural paradise of Serbia, then taken to Bosnia and killed.

I guess someone will call me an Albanian or Croat now for pointing out the obvious again.

I guess someone will call me an Albanian or Croat now for pointing out the obvious again.
(Danilo, 27 February 2013 12:43)
--
Don't think you are a Croat or Albanian, just one of their sympathisers. You don't waste a minute to comment when a Serbian crime appears but you go missing when crimes against Serbs appear. Just an obvious observation that you dislike Serbs.

Ian,Don't hold your breath for the day that the Croatian government investigates or commemorates the murder of Serb civilians in Croatia.

Poor Albanians and their supporters... we have never claimed to be angles and we have always admitted that Serbs have committed crimes, which is normal in all wars.

What we are saying is that all sides committed crimes and that this selective justice being served by NATO and NATO nations does not go well with Serbs and prevents reconciliation. All we are getting from the current agenda and policies is deeper divisions and more hatred, which is quite obvious on these forums alone.

So there is not much to be said except that these crimes and it seems justice is served but again, it is selective justice.

Now Ian, it was only last week that the former interior minister of Croatia admitted that Croatians were kidnapping Serbs and executing them and you are the one that hid behind a rock. No problems with Croatia arming terrorists from your point of view but when Croatia has committing hideous crimes, you go missing. You are a person of weak character, simple as that. Here is the article and no comments from you after Peggy even challenged you. Check -> http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2013&mm=02&dd=20&nav_id=84785

Now the difference here is that those responsible for this crime have been brought to justice but tell me, why are those responsible for kidnapping and murdering Serbs in Croatia still free? No need to answer that Ian, we know you are a Serb hater.

"...selective justice..."

selective justice my behind! its no one's fault serbs committed more crimes than other people in ex Yugoslavia.

"But it happend during a period of war."

and this makes the murder of civilians OK?

RIP. Hopefully the perpetrators are caught and punished.

For the commenters here, at least Serbia is doing something to punish their guilty. They are the ONLY ones in the Balkans that truly do this. Everyone else covers things up and throws a couple small fish away for 5 years. That is the difference in the region.

And for Albos....well they are a whole different breed of cowardly people.

(Ian's Pith Helmet, 27 February 2013 13:11)

It's really laughable to read comments posted by Ian and like-minded others condemning war crimes allegedly committed by other countries when their own ones hide millions of skeletons in their cupboards.It was only last week that Cameron on his trip to India apologised (a bit too late)for the massacre in Amritsar 100 years ago.At the same time his bankrupt country continues its military aggression in foreign countries and Cameron continues acting as a salesman for the UK billion pound arms industry.What about those brave British servicemen returning home from Iraq and bringing home their trophies(fingers of Iraqi prisoners)?

To all albanians:

This was a criminal act, no doubt. But it happend during a period of war. In Kosovo we have killings, kidnappings, desecration of graveyards/churches during times of peace. Now YOU look yourselves in the mirror.

Serbia is punishing their own for crimes commited during the war. Croats, muslims and primarily albanians are not. That is the difference between serbs and everyone else in the balkans.

"But it happend during a period of war."

and this makes the murder of civilians OK?
Nikolle

Did you read the rest of my comment or just what you wanted to read? You albanians and your selective memmory. Only seeing what you need to see to confirm you preprogrammed views of the world. You albs don't need war to terrorize and murder. You do it any way you can. I guess it just the way you are.

As a Serb I have no problem in stating that this was a henious crime and it brings a shame to us, such acts only harmed the Serbian war effort.

So there I a Serb am not denying this crime and am honest to say it was hideous. What we have though is that while we can admit this horrible event took place reported crimes committed by albanians for example are left with nothing but denial and claim of propaganda in the comments on this site. It is like Zoran said, crimes were committed by all sides in the conflicts, but the question lies as to who is guilty.

We have Ian who jumps on this like a hyena though he is either silent or looks for empty excuses of doubt when the story is raised about crimes committed by others. Then we have Danilo, who I do suspect is a Serb (though possibly a self-hating one) who also can always be found commenting on articles about crimes committed by Serbs though is nowhere to be heard when the subject is about albanian/croat/bosnian muslim crimes. I must ask though Danilo why is this? There is nothing wrong in condemning crimes universally though you are only here when the subject is about crimes committed by Serbs. Perhaps you think that if your attitude was taken by the entire Serbian population, condemning all Serbian crimes but none by others, then Serbia's EU accession would be quicker. So please if you don't mind, why are you always silent or in denial when the story concerns crimes committed by non-Serbs?

I'm not any group's "sympathizer" in particular, Zorane.

I'm just some guy, living in Belgrade, sitting at my computer, pointing out the obvious on occasion. For some reason, this makes some Australians cry sometimes.

I'm not stuck in some kind of ethnic-identity-categorization trap.

Ian,

Before you jump the gun let me tell you:

There's a mistake in the article. The crime took place in Štrpci, Bosnia -not in Štrpce, Kosovo. Kidnapping of 19 citizens of Serbia and Montenegro from the Belgrade-Bar train and murdering them is a well known crime, known as Štrpci massacre, and not disputed by anyone, but it's still mainly unsolved. Perpetrators are known as Višegrad Brigade (of Republika Srpska Army) members.

I have noticed that you have some personal problem with Serbia. From my experience I can reveal you that Serbia or Serbian people are no better nor worse than other countries or people of the Balkans. In this sense you are pretty one eyed in your choice of discussions and in your views in them. But, once again, you don't differ much if at all of most commentators here.

If Croatia wasn't trying to joining Germany, sorry, the EU, then I doubt we would have heard anything about taking their own responsibility for war crimes. Even then, they essentially get a free pass in to the EU because of German sponsorship.

I'm not any group's "sympathizer" in particular, Zorane.

I'm just some guy, living in Belgrade, sitting at my computer, pointing out the obvious on occasion. For some reason, this makes some Australians cry sometimes.

I'm not stuck in some kind of ethnic-identity-categorization trap.
(Danilo, 27 February 2013 13:40)
--
You are just your average racist who dislikes Serbs. I think that is fairly obvious (at least to most). As for other nationals far away or close, I don't think most even know or care about Serbian and the surrounding politics.

"But it happend during a period of war."
and this makes the murder of civilians OK?
(Nikolle, 27 February 2013 14:56)
--
The *Big* difference here is that Serbs are condemning such crimes.

The US/NATO is doing the same but covering it up. Check -> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/24/afghanistan-us-special-forces-civilian-death
Croatians were doing the same but justifying it as acceptable. Check -> http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2013&mm=02&dd=20&nav_id=84785

And as we know, Albanians are doing it even today. How many Serbs are murdered each year without the perpetrator being found?

oh no I did, however, I do no not think desecrating graves (despicable though it is) compares to the murder of civilians on a mass scale. frankly genocide denial is a lot worse (as your president does with Srebrenica)

So much for that myth you call "selective justice". Obviously stating the truth makes me a "Serb hater".
(Ian, UK, 27 February 2013 13:49)
--
Now take your list plus sentences and compare that with Serbs who committed similar crimes. Now see the difference? Serbs are getting 10 years more for the same crime. Also, out of your list, how many of those committed crimes against Serbs and how many against Bosnian Muslims? Also, check out Oric, Gotovina and Haradinaj and you'll see despicable war criminals walking freely.

As your NATO court keeps telling us, there were definitely crimes committed against Serbs but they just can't seem to find who is responsible. What a joke eh!?

Now lets look at the difference here. This is a crime that Serbians committed and we can see Serbs condemning such crimes, seeking justice and admitting it causes shame to our people. No problems or doubts there. We do not see the same coming from our angels - Albanians, Croatians and Bosnian Muslims. They are too busy covering-up their crimes and paying public relations firms to give them a clean name. Read that article I linked to, the former Croatian interior minister even justifies kidnapping and killing Serbs. He doesn't see anything wrong with that. This is the mentality we are dealing with when it comes to NATO, Croatia, Albanians and Bosnian Muslims. That it why there will be no reconciliation until they come clean on their crimes.

And Ian, you are part of that group.

Just follow the civilized british example and everything will be fine.

Kenya: Hide documents of extra-judicial killings and torture for 60 years in an unused office.

The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/28/mau-mau-rewrite-history-british-empire

Paying off slave owners on abolition to the equivalent tune of billions of pounds, ancestors of the current PM benefiting:

The Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-colonial-shame-slaveowners-given-huge-payouts-after-abolition-8508358.html


It must be a bugger being british.

(Wee Kelpie, 27 February 2013 16:56)

In your deluded mind all British soldiers are innocent.Enjoy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/20/iraq-abu-ghraib-prison-detainees-torture-us-troops

http://www.newsrt.co.uk/news/afghan-man-was-tortured-in-jail-after-uk-troops-handed-him-over-235206.html

http://www.theinternational.org/articles/335-iraqi-allegations-of-torture-by-british-t

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023701/British-soldier-cut-Taliban-fighters-fingers-macabre-souvenir-hunt.html

Danilo is modern Serbian patriot who refuses to protect crocks in the mane of Serbism.

(ben, 27 February 2013 17:57)

Actually he is Croatian.

Leon the Greek strikes again. If you're so anti-West why don't you pay back your debts and be done with EU. Align yourself with your brethren the Turks and other Asiatic peoples.

We certanily don't need a deadbeat to lecture us on anything!!!
It falls on dead ears, don't you think?

You don't waste a minute to comment when a Serbian crime appears
(Zoran, 27 February 2013 13:21)

Perhaps because he loves his country and wants to see her clean and honest with its criminal past??

Danilo is modern Serbian patriot who refuses to protect crocks in the mane of Serbism.

You on the other hand are a miserable chetnick stuck in the medieval culture and values and consider the killing of disarmed people as bravery and patriotism.

What? How can this be? I thought all non-Serbs were treated like Gods and Kings in Kosovo pre-1998.

I think I might write something along the lines of what Peggy says.

Peggy are you going to comment on this?
Zoran are you going to comment on this?
Ari Gold are you going to comment on this?

How long do I have to give you before I can call you "cowards" for not posting a comment on such an article?
(Ian, UK, 27 February 2013 12:

I also remember when, you thought for many years, that Tony Blair was the English twin of Nietzsche's uberman, but he got religious on you and became Catholic and an accused bloody war criminal. Why, it was just the other day that you thought the Yankee Big Business, with their lobbying and advertising, brainwashed and scared the American people into believing in big-bad-governments, civil wars and other evils so that Big Business can sell them guns and laugh all the way to the bank. I bet you also think that an Arkansas Toothpick is a tall, skinny, American, white, trailer trash girl. You need real help son, and it was these here three people that "gently" guided you through all the crucial facts about your ex-worshiping idol Tony Blair.
I believe you owe these three folks some acknowledgement, and some gratitude, for their contributions to opening up your mind a little, and not try to feed your soul on those that have greatly suffered from your ex idol's evils.
What was the name of that professor of yours again--you know, the one from Maine?

"As your NATO court keeps telling us, there were definitely crimes committed against Serbs but they just can't seem to find who is responsible. What a joke eh!?"

Zoran, you still have not figured out that it is not a NATO but a UN court, huh? Set up by Russia and China, among others. With judges from all over the world. Once more Zoran, it is a UN court. Our dear "over my dead body" Jeremic will put it under discussion in April precisely because it is a UN court. Get it? Naaa, you don't want to get it.

This is the aniversary, Robert. There's no official commemoration in Serbia, but you're probably right about Croatia.

However, Croatian activists have put up plaques in Knin to commemorate Serbian victims and this was reported on B92

There are a few normal people around the Balkans, after all

RIP

ian,
you said:
"Many more Serbs have been aquitted/ had their indiciments withdrawn by the ICTY compared to Croats, Bosniaks, K-Albanians put together."
which if properly read would suggest that many more serbs were falsly accused of crimes, and thusly sent to icty, that croats, bosniaks and k-albanians put together. simply put, serbs were accused at much higher rates than their neighbours, but their neighbours who were accused were more likely to actually be guilty.
perhaps if you considered that you might start to understand that there might be more than a grain of truth to some of the statements which you so much try to deflect by bringing a bunch of stats to the table, but you've unfortunately misunderstood the stats you bring.
in the last decade alone (lets not rehash the deep past) the queen's (and allies') armies are directly and indirectly responsible for more deaths and refugees than all of the balkan's wars, yet you venerable leaders, walk freely with their dirty noses high in the air.

"But it happend during a period of war."
and this makes the murder of civilians OK?
(Nikolle, 27 February 2013 14:56)
==========================

No it doesn't.
Someone is actually doing something about this, unlike in "Kosova" where it's open season on Serbs even today and nobody is ever investigated.

read this carefully, what Arvanites consider themselves does not matter to me, they're still left with the fact that I a Gheg Albanian, not even a Tosk one, understand their language without ever having the need to study it. now there's three possibilities here; 1) they adopted Albanian, 2) Albanians adopted Arvanite or the most logical, Arvanite derives from Albanian. of course, I am not going to claim that Arvanites are Albanian, because thats as stupid as claiming that the Arbanasi of Croatia are Albanian (they have Albanian heritage, it doesn't make them Albanians however).
now, if you want to disagree with linguists that have Albanian classified Indo-European, be my guest, enroll in the institute of Albanology and show where they are wrong, no one is stopping you. until you publish your own scholarly however, you're still left with the fact that what I wrote before is true.

Sytematic abuse by british soldiers in Iraq

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/30/iraq-torture-allegations-uk-military-investigations-reopened

The government is still denying it. The higher the pedestal, the further there is to fall.

What about those brave British servicemen returning home from Iraq and bringing home their trophies(fingers of Iraqi prisoners)?
(Leonidas, 27 February 2013 14:00)
Wow, I am shocked, the mere thought gives me the shivers. Fingers for trophies whatever next.
Is it true though? I would be grateful if you could provide a reference/source for this allegation, because thats all it is, and apretty sensational one at that.
The UK forces (Army in particular) have been dragged thru the media often for actions committed contrary to 'Rules of warfare'. Fingers for trophies, that one is new to me. Again, please provde credible source, and if true I will apologise accordingly

Zoran: I would be very surprised if Danilo's dislike of Serbs is borne out of racism, not least as he is in all likelihood part of the same race as you are. His national background may be different but that is another thing altogether. Will we be reading about the 25th, 30th, 35th, 40th anniversaries of this and other events from the 1990s or will we at some point focus on the future? Perhaps there will simply be a 'Victims Day' each year when all those who died during the conflicts can be remembered and people on all sides act with respect and dignity. Maybe I am just have an airborne swine moment.

oh dear, give it up Leonidas, you're in danger of becoming as boring as that other historian on these boards, Bugar from Skopje.

Leonidas! Caucasian Agvania, or Aluania, which derived from the Alpans mountain has nothing to do with present Albania. Udi language might be similar to Armenian or Azeri, or mixed with hebrew, but "shqipe" language has nothing to do with it. We, The Albanians call ourselves "Shqiptare". We call our country "Shqiperia". Around 4 million Arvanites in Greece might explain to you where do they come from. Vasilis Rafaelides, a Greek linguist wrote in 1974, that "if you move any ordinary rock in Greece, you will hear the Albanian language from underneath". Explain to me, why many Illyrian words have meaning only in the Albanian language? The name Lissus derives from "Lesh", (which in Albanian means 'wool"; today city of "Lezhe", Dimal- in modern Albanian language is "Dy mal", equal to "two mountains". The word itself "Illyr"- in Albanian is "I lire", means "free man". King Hyllus, the first king of Illyria- his name you can find it even today in Albanian_ "Ylli"-means "star". The grave "tumula", exists even today in our language "tu mulu"- "e mbuluar". There is not any source that "Shqiptaret" came from Aguania. From 6 million population, most of the men are called "Bardhyl", "Taulant", "Genti", "Ylli", "Agron", or female "Teuta". Mention please another nation in the world who could use so often the Illyrian names.
I doubt this is the right page to write for the origin of the Albanians. Get a dictionary and compare it with "Udi" language and you will feel sorry for yourself.

'Selective Justice'???
(milos, 27 February 2013 23:02)
--
Thanks Milos, so out of 22 Croat cases taken up by the NATO court, only 3 were related to crimes committed against Serbs. Looks like Ian got Busted again! LOL! Poor kid has had a hard time justifying himself lately.

no not really. i'm only trying to remember a thread that does not turn into the origin of Albanians, as if it matters in todays issues.
for what its worth though Leonidas, you have a very poor knowledge of history, one that has been sold to you by Greek priests

oh no I did, however, I do no not think desecrating graves (despicable though it is) compares to the murder of civilians on a mass scale. frankly genocide denial is a lot worse (as your president does with Srebrenica)
(Nikolle, 27 February 2013 15:55)

Not even the ICTY nor mass media claim that they were 'civilians', preferring to use the phrase 'men and boys'. Can you tell the difference? So what then were they? Almost all soldiers of the ArBiH according to ArBiH documents. Even Mirsad Tocaka, head of the Research and Documentation Center in Sarajevo admits to this in previous interviews.

What an inconvenient truth for you.

MikeC: "This was a criminal act, no doubt. But it happend during a period of war. In Kosovo we have killings, kidnappings, desecration of graveyards/churches during times of peace."


There was no war in Sandjak in 1993. You Serbs have tried very hard to argue that Serbia was not involved in the war.

Second, what kidnappings has happened in Kosova in the times of peace? Do you compare the desecration of graveyards and school fistfights with massacres of this scale?

Leon the Greek strikes again. If you're so anti-West why don't you pay back your debts and be done with EU. Align yourself with your brethren the Turks and other Asiatic peoples.

We certanily don't need a deadbeat to lecture us on anything!!!
It falls on dead ears, don't you think?
(cry me a river, 27 February 2013 19:35)

I must've a hit a nerve with the Albanian crowd here.As a matter of fact it is you the Turks call brothers ,you're the same people,same religion,like the Italian idiom una fatsa una ratsa.After all there are another 5 million of Albanians living in Turkey.

Nothing personal,my issue with Albanians is they are refusing to see reality and accept it and instead choosing to live in dreams that a dictator made up for them(Illyrian,Dadanian,Martian etc).If I were you I would do some research and you could be surprised find out that you have no connections with the Balkans at all and you're relatively new settlers.Read Trajan's dispaches to Roman Senate while setting the eastern borders of the Roman Empire:

http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/MedievalHistory/Bury/Roman_Empire/From-Principate-to-death-of-Marcus-Aurelius/24/4-CONQUESTS-IN-THE-EAST.html

http://wschulze.userweb.mwn.de/Udigen1.htm

http://wschulze.userweb.mwn.de/Cauc_alb.htm

BTW This site is a Serbian and not an Albanian one and if you don't like my comments you can comment somewhere else.

for what its worth though Leonidas, you have a very poor knowledge of history, one that has been sold to you by Greek priests
(Nikolle, 28 February 2013 11:09)

Indeed.I would've enriched my historical knowledge had I accepted Enver Hoxha's doctrine about the Illyrian origin of Albanians. We are Illyrians’and that’s that,nothing backed by historical or archelogical evidence.The only evidence of Illyrian evidence was manufactured by Hoxha with the forceful imposition of supposedly Illyrian names on the newly born Albanians.

Another Albanian poster below talks about Albanian anh Illyrian linguistic linkages.Well there isn't any.I would refer you to research carried out by the Austrian linguists Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger who tried reconstruct the origins of Albanian language.when they compared the few surviving fragments of Illyrian to Albanian , they had nothing in common.Matzinger said and I quote “The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”

If you're open-minded Nikolle read the book "The decline and fall of the Roman Empire" by Edward Gibbon written 250 years ago and also "Constantinople"by P Mansfied- He talks about Muslim migrations in the Balkans in the 16th Century.

"The decline and fall of the Roman Empire"

read it already :-) ! do you know what however, who cares where Albanians come from? what on earth does that have to do with anything?

nevertheless, now that you have opened up this discussion, are you now going to claim that those Muslims in the 16 century are todays Albanians? lets see, there are Catholic Albanians, Orthodox Albanians (though Greeks think they're Greek) and Muslim Albanians. The Albanian language is a classified Indo European one, with no connection to any of its immediate neighbors, this means, its not Greek, Slavic, Latin, Turkic, Germanic, Arabic...whatever. this is the reason why scholars today think its either Thracian, Dacian or Illyrian. oddly enough, the Arvanite language derives from the Tosk dialect, which is why even I as a Gheg Albanian understand Arvanite without ever having studied it. then there is the Arberesh community in Italy. this is all fact, not fiction.

read it already :-) ! do you know what however, who cares where Albanians come from? what on earth does that have to do with anything?
(Nikolle, 28 February 2013 15:59)

Well,its got to do with a lot of things.Those Illyrian myths were manufactured in order to establish precedence over neighbouring countries ( Greeks,Slavs) and allow movements for independence and self-determination, as well as irredentist claims against those countries.

What I am saying is that Muslim Albanians and Arvanites are two different people with no connection.Orthodox Arvanites regard themselves as native and remnants of the old Greek settlements in South Albania whereas they regard the Muslim Albanians as settlers and Turkish descendants thus their hostility towards them.On a personal level I've got to admit that I was really surprised when I visited Agioi Saranta one summer and found out that virtually every one that I spoke to was speaking in Greek.Even the young ones back from Greece were dancing to the tunes of Greek music in the night clubs.

BTW I haven't seen yet any independent scholar making the connection between Albanian and Thracian, Dacian or Illyrian for lack of samples.Unless of course those connections are made by Albanians.

In your deluded mind all British soldiers are innocent.Enjoy:

[link]

[link]

[link]

[link]
(Leonidas, 27 February 2013 17:39)
First, whatever did you read in my comment that suggests that I am delusional? Kettle, pot, black comes to mind here!
British soldiers innocent? There’s bad in all armies, UK forces are no exception unfortunately.
Your links, Nothing new that I am not already familiar regarding first three.
The last link is interesting, today’s date hence why I am not familiar, so as promised I apologise.
Out of curiosity, you once lambasted me during a thread some months back, called me something along the lines of ‘right wing daily mail reading bigot’ !
Pray tell sir, what’s a good ‘guardianista’ reader like yourself doing reading the Daily fascist???
Not to mention quoting from it!
Enjoy!

Bruno Stojić currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Ivica Rajić sentenced 12 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Vinko Martinović sentenced 18 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Dario Kordić sentenced 25 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Zdravko Mucić sentenced 9 years– CRIME AGAINST SERBS
Paško Ljubičić transfered to national courts by ICTY, sentenced 10 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Milivoj Petković currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Valentin Ćorić currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Tihomir Blaškić sentenced 9 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Jadranko Prlić currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Slobodan Praljak currently on trial– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Mario Čerkez sentenced 6 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Drago Josipović senteced 12 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Vladimir Šantić sentenced 18 year – CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Miroslav Bralo sentenced 20 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Anto Furundžija sentenced 10 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Mladen "Tuta" Naletilić sentenced 20 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Mirko Norac transfered to national courts by ICTY, sentenced 7 years– CRIME AGAINST SERBS
Zlatko Aleksovski sentenced 7 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Dražen Erdemović sentenced 5 years– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS
Janko Bobetko died before sentencing– CRIME AGAINST SERBS
Stipo Alilović died before sentencing– CRIME AGAINST BOS MUSLIMS

'Selective Justice'???

Perhaps there will simply be a 'Victims Day' each year when all those who died during the conflicts can be remembered and people on all sides act with respect and dignity. Maybe I am just have an airborne swine moment.
(ned taylor, 27 February 2013 22:55)
--
Great idea about "Victim's Day" but seems the region would have to reconcile before something like that occurred. We'd need all sides coming clean, which could have been achieved with a truth and reconciliation commission.

As we know, NATO wanted to play a warped version of victor's justice, which backfired instead. Doesn't look like we will be reconciling anytime soon. The NATO court has just divided us even further.

I must've a hit a nerve with the Albanian crowd here
Leonidas.

Not always and certainly not all Albanians. I do occasionally give you the thump up.

Someone is actually doing something about this, unlike in "Kosova" where it's open season on Serbs even today and nobody is ever investigated.
(Peggy, 27 February 2013 21:24)

Peggy you risk becoming another “Martinovic Case” victim. When you write you remind me the farmer from Gjilan, --..-- Dordje Martinovic. I am sure you remember him!!!

Sorry guys I did not know how to create a link in B92 but if interested read it.

Dordje Martinovic case.

(Wee kelpie, 27 February 2013 20:54)

Apologies accepted.

BTW The daily mail link was sent to me and I was surprised to see these news on the front page of an "Establishment" newspaper.

oh dear, give it up Leonidas, you're in danger of becoming as boring as that other historian on these boards, Bugar from Skopje.
(Nikolle, 27 February 2013 23:46)

Did I hit a nerve with you nicolle? I was merely answering your friend "cry me a river" unless of course you're his double.

BTW I've never pretended to be a historian but at least my historical knowledge is backed by facts not fiction.

Actually he is Croatian.
(Steve B., 27 February 2013 18:55)

Oh really?

Thanks for letting me know!

memory eternal to all victims of all sides. May they never be forgotten, and may this never happen again.

Hey Ian only one of those croats that you list was sentenced because he committed crimes against serbs and that is Mirko Norac that was transferred to croatia and immediately when he came back to Croatia they aquitted him and released him without even a day served in prison.

@ Leonidas, 27 February 2013 21:27)

In order to have full pictures of albo also we have original albos left in Sicily location, must be counted on them! please.
(George Maniakes com with albo people in the Balkan in 11 century).
Balkan Albo is product of Turks Arnaut and part of Sicilian mafia
In other word our Balkan albos is master slave for big power..