Church, ethnic Greeks reject results of Albanian census

To b92: can you please mention whose source is finding 300000 greeks in albania. I am trying to find a town or a village or city or a region- call it what you want, with at least 10000 thousands greek in albania but there is no way. there are some villages in south of albania but even if you count them by greek way of countings those who say are greeks (1,2 ,5, 10,20 ....) those villages can't make a figure of 100 thousands or at least 10000.
You write about commenting your news that will not publish racial or insulting ones and I do respect it. But please I would ask you What about the truth? Can it be part of your news when talking about albania and albanians.?

Orthodox church again doing what it does best, screwing up things.

Media and certain officials claim that there are 300,000 Greeks living in Albania.

That number is way out of line and no where near reality. Is just like me saying, there are 3 million Albanians living in Greece.

Why Greece its not looking its own ethnic minorities. Ethnic minorities in Greece don't have any rights and they are considered as a slaves. I am surprised that nationalistic country like Greece is part of EU. There are over 1 million ethnic orthodox and Muslim Albanians leaving in Greece. Albanians are afraid to speak their language in Greece they don't have schools in their own language nothing. In this aspect i would say that Serbia and Macedonia are much more democratic countries compared to Greece. At least in Serbia and Macedonia Albanians have some democratic rights.

'The ethnic cleansing of minorities continues...... (Albanians), that cannot, and does not, want to live with other ethnicities?'
(AcaVeliki, 16 December 2012 17:32)
NO,sir,perception you have is WRONG.
I am a Orthodox myself,however it is not my Fault why Greek Propoganda counts me as a Greek.None of my predecessors,ever,spoke a Greek language or identified his/her own self as a greek.NEVER.
It's not Albania who discriminate the others,but rather Greece.
There is hundred of thousands of Orthodox Albanian Tchams ''Çame'',in today greece,which greece REFUZES to recognize them as Albanians.The Muslim Albanian Tchams ''Çame'',the other half,were either executed/ deported to countries such as Albania and Turkey.This is what i call Discrimination,Genocide and Assimilation,and not the stupid census in Albania.Yes,the number of Orthodox in Albania is Higher,but that said not because of Manipulations,as Greek Propoganda Machine claims,but because of refuzal to participate in such a ''political parody'',as Census Albania.I am 1 of them.
Albanians in Albania ''proper'',especially in South,are way more Liberal than you think,and to often have been ''accused'' as ''non-albanians'',preciesly because of tolerant way of co-existence with other ''ethnicities''.Therefore your claim is totally WRONG.
There is no such a thing as a ''Greek man''/''greek ethnicity'',but rather,Albanians,Sllavs,Aromanians+ some greeks from M.Asia.
4 linguistic reasons we call them Greeks,but they are not.

"In fact Toska and Gegs arrived in the Balkans at the time of Ottoman expansionism"

this is a new one. quite odd that I as an Albanian, can understand Arvanite. Very odd too that the Arberesh of Italy speak a language that is easily comprehended by Albanians. They too must have come together with the Ottomans, but decided to go to Italy instead...nicer beaches over there

I am orthodox albanian and not greek .

Albanian orthodoxs have been in the fronline for the Albanian indepenndence.

Someone says tha Korca is a slavomacedonian city????What the hell r u talking about?

I live in Korca for generations and behind the Orthodox Cathetral.There are NO greeks and macedonians in Korca.Few(3 or 4) familes with greek nationality left Albania in 1989.Those are greeks in Korca.
Korca always have fought against greeks,and its villages have been burn by greeks in 1918.
Greek gonverment have spent millions of euros (from Germany and EU ) to convince that people from Korca are greek.People were smarter,they got the money and declare themselves Albanian.
Korca has been and is the crandle of Albanian patriotism.I am albanian from Korca and proud of it.And so are all people from Korca.

How about having a census, on the makeup of chameria? Which thru aggression, Greece usurped this Albanian territory! Just as was the case of serbia usurping, the albanian region of dardania-kosova! The time for this region of chameria to be returned to its rightful owner, Albania is at hand! Serbia could not illegally keep what was not Serbia's! So then, Greece will not illegally keep what does not belong to Greece! That i promise! Yes, you are witnessing the unification of the Albanian conscious & nation! We have defended ourselves against Greek & Serb aggression for many previous century's, & will continue to do so, for many more future century's!!! We shall prevail against all evil....

e in Greece they don't have schools in their own language nothing. In this aspect i would say that Serbia and Macedonia are much more democratic countries compared to Greece. At least in Serbia and Macedonia Albanians have some democratic rights.
(Abdullah Saladin, 16 December 2012 19:20)
================================
Thanks for admitting that Albanians had rights in Serbia and even had schools in their language. No Albanian has admitted that so far.
The article is about minority rights in Albanian not in Greece.
As always, Albanians want something they are not prepared to give to others.

The ethnic cleansing of minorities continues, if not always physically, then on paper. What is it with this ethnicity (Albanians), that cannot, and does not, want to live with other ethnicities?

No suprise really, this is what happends when you let a Greek run your orthodox church.

Albo Rocky

Albos have more to do with Turkey than with Dardania.Albanians are settlers from Turkey nothing more nothing less.

Greece will not illegally keep what does not belong to Greece! That i promise!
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

When the Greeks arrived in Epirus in 2100 BC and were building cities like Apolonia,Epidamnus,Amantia etc the Albanians were still hibernating in Caucasus.Therefore,one finds amusing your claims about Chameria being Albanian land when Epirus was Greek land for more than 4000 years.

It's also amusing that Albanians and Turks talk about minority rights like being their favourite domain.The Greeks in Northern Epirus despite receiving promises of strong educational and cultural minority rights (which were never honoured by the Albanian State),suffered from the prohibition of the Greek language,existence of Greek communities outside the 'minority zones' wasn't allowed,many Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones and any Greek dissenter was sent to mining concentration camps in Northern Albania.

It's true that the numbers of Greeks in Northern Epirus declined markedly after the collapse of the communist regime there with the majority of those moving into Greece for a better life. I cannot comment on the statistics but I wouldn't trust thief Berisha either.

BTW How do you plan to get Cameria? Not wityh the mules and donkeys employed by the Albanian Army.Beware,the Adriatic is not far away.

All census in the balkans are political tools.

Out of all, greeks shouldn't complain about minorities because they do not accept that minorities exist in Greece, though they do.

Greek historiography claims that all southern albania is greek. I say kiss my ass.
I am practicing orthodox, I am albanian, I have no freaking desire to be greek.

Gone are the times when Greeks used EU and German money to convince Albanian peasants that they were really Greek. What, for 400 euros a month of course you can ge a lot of people to say that their great ggrandfather spoke Greek, and damn those Albanians.

300,000 Greeks? I'm waiting for the 300,000 to go out and protest them. Should be easy, what with the brave oppressed Greeks and the coward Albanians.

But one thing is clear, the orthodox Albanians need to get rid of this Anastasios character.

The church has protested the outcome for the self declared orthodox christians, 6.75%, not the self declared ethnic greek population.

It's omonia which always claims that 10% of albania's population is greek, which is a hallucination.
My uncle's wife is from the greek minority, Dropull. There were no more than 60 thousands ethnic greeks in albania before everybody left to greece. I'm surprised there are still any left actually.

All in all, there's something wrong with the census. Catholics can't outnumber the orthodox, though many orthodox left to greece after communism collapsed.
The census shows 56% as muslims, which way lower than 75% previously thought.

Now, in albania, being a muslim means that the family has a muslim background, but not self identified as muslim believer.
Same for christians.

its time for all minorities to stage a protest and get the word out to all minorities around the world from facebooke and other ways from the net and by word of mouth .we know there is about 300,000 greeks and there is 200,000 romas and serbs there is 40,000+ this is more albanian lies.there is only 2 million albanians in albania not 2.3 million like they think and why is that over 400,000 people never did the census in this fake country of alvania.and it showed 82% are alvanians so where are the rest of the people ...they never did the census it sounds like a boycot to me.

At least in Serbia and Macedonia Albanians have some democratic rights.
(Abdullah Saladin, 16 December 2012 19:20)

Maybe - but, inshallah, - they don't deserve them.

Time for Northern Epirus to declare independence and return to Greece, it's rightful and natural country.

MARCH ON GREEK BROTHERS AND SISTERS!GOD BE WITH YOU!

I think the greeks and other minorities in Albania should get independence, NOW! They have suffered for to long. Albanians think they can take and take and not give anything back. The day will come when Greece i reunited and land stolen by albanians/turks will be returned.

@Lenida, "When the Greeks arrived in Epirus in 2100 BC and were building cities like Apolonia,Epidamnus,Amantia etc the Albanians were still hibernating in Caucasus..."

When the Greeks arrived in Apolonia, Epidamnus, etc., they found out that the cities had already been build before them by the Illyrians.
Apolonia's original name was Gylakeia, after its founder Gylax of the Taulanti.

But what happen 4000 years ago is one thing, and there's 4000 years of human history since then. You talk about prohibition of Greek language education outside of minority areas? As if Greece provided, or even allowed, Albanian language education in the Cham inhabited areas? Tell me how many Albanian schools are in Parga, Gumenica, Arta, Preveza, or Janina, for the cham children there? How many schools are there for the Arvanites in the Peloponese and Attica?

Yes, we plan on getting Chameria with donkeys and mules, just like we got Kosova from the Serbs. They had the fourth largest army in Europe, and now we are in and they are out. They are not laughing now are they?

It's true that the numbers of Greeks in Northern Epirus declined markedly after the collapse of the communist regime there with the majority of those moving into Greece for a better life. I cannot comment on the statistics but I wouldn't trust thief Berisha either.

BTW How do you plan to get Cameria?


1. Nobody is planing to get Cameria despite what you hear on this forum. The point is to undo a hitorical wrong a henious crime. What happened there was mass punishment from newborn to 100 years old to an ethnic group without due process of law without a single court decision. Now after removing all the layers of BS coming from Athens, this is what remains. These people have the deeds of their lands in Greece that to this day remain usurped by the Greek state due to the War Law still remaining in place. At the very least these people deserve to be paid for their lands being taken by force but also a recognition that was done to them was wrong. This is something that is easily fixable if the Greeks stop acting like borders have never moved and villages were left on the other side of the border. The Cams are an ethnically cleansed minority. Simple as that. Move on.

2. I dont trust Berisha census either but neither do I trust the numbers of church who headed by a Greek who got that position because of Berisha's political manouvering diggs the graves of children and women and claims them to be Greek soldiers. Your guy has committed way to many sins to be trusted with anything.

This message is to all our neighbors.

We albanians don't really care what our neighbors think, although we care what the democratic world thinks. We are used to your propaganda and lies - nothing new really - and as long as your lies don't influence the democratic world, than we will be fine.

There is something funny about this rejection of albanian census by our neighbors - they kill us, take our land, try to divide our land between them, try to assimilate us and then they wonder - why albania has so little minority (less than 5000 greeks and very few macedonians/slavs).

Well, when you occupy albanian land and start ethnic cleansing, where do you think people from dardania and chameria and other occupied territories run to from getting murdered - they run to albania - a small unoccupied territory that it's still safe. You get it now why albania is so ethnically pure?

If greece didn't occupy Chameria, than albania would have a considerable number of greek minority today. And Kosova has a considerable number of minority after liberation and payback time.

Albanians hope that they have some good neighbors someday.

Peace.

"Correct. Greece will only take the parts of Epiros which has been occupied by Albania since 1912."

Greece doesn't have the cash to look after what it DOES possess never mind absorbing new territory. How 'bout Istanbul, you going to take that one too?

Leonidas,
You sound like an educated man, as such you have probably heard of the large swap of population between Ottomans and Greece. Hence there is a large population of Albanians there.There is no evidence of an Albanian exodus anywhere in history books. Also the language is considered indo-European by most non-balkans linguists, and classified as unique branch(same as Greek). You also probably know that in ancient times, greek was the language of culture and science (due to great achievements of the Greeks). Noble man from all around the world would used it to communicate with each others( even Romans). Calling them all Greeks may be convenient, but as realistic as calling all english-speaking people British. The fact is that both our people have lived together ,in the same territory , for a long while. We will probably continue to do so for many more years, so we better learn to get along. And no neither Chameria,nor Northern Epirus are going anywhere, no matter what "Red and Black Alliance" or "Golden Dawn" say.

Census of Albania got EU certification for the standard. Greece is part of EU. But second Greeks all Orthodox are Greek, even Serbs are Greek second them..no more comment

A good part of Korça is Serbo-Macedonian. Last year I was there and make a resident of Korça cry as I spoke to him in Russian and (after decades!) he could answer me back in Serbo-Macedonian without fear of something bad would happen to him. That happened inside of the (new) Pravoslav cathedral of Korca. I tried to visit the icon museum - it was closed, but at least there were two cars around with Bulgarian plates.

Once we would sort out in Albania who is Montenegrin, who is Serb, who is Bulgaro-Macedonian and who is Greek... there won't be Albania anymore (and no one would miss it, good riddance!)

Except the usual Tiranasaurs of B92, of course.

This is a true story, btw, take it or not, up to you. Of course B92-Tiranasauria will deny that, do we really care?

Another orthodox Albanian that is not Greek.

Of course. Nobody believes what Albanians say.

@Leonidas, There is an evidence of Albanian emigration from Yugoslavia and Greece cause to agreement of exchange of people between this countries and Turkey. Also exist the Diaspora of Albanians from 5 centuries of Ottoman Empire.The other way is hard to be proved and don’t exist an single evidence that Albanians comes during Ottoman Empire from Turkey. Even your Serbs friend with a lot of fantasy say that we came in 1043 by Sicily ( another funny story this).
In the modern time we live, is easy to make a study by DNA test and I believe that Albanian is nearer West Europe DNA and the Greek one is nearer Asiatic DNA. This is just a fact and not an advantage of Albanians, cause I have no prejudice of Asiatic DNA and say that West Europe DNA is a better one.

Church, ethnic Greeks reject results of Albanian census

When presented with truth, just play the illiteracy card for those that did the counting. You'll get
sympathy that way instead of scorn.

First of, the orthodox christians are albanian with albanian as their mother tongue, ever since byzantine empire. There is a few greeks in albania but the racist nationalistic nazj greek government does everything it can to block its neighbors evolution in ways that it benefits greece, just bc some ody is orthodox does not mean they are greek... Greece uses religion to its advantage.. How bout the arvanitika( albaniAn speakers) what about them? What about the chams. Greeks demand rights for their so called "own" which actually they"re not even greeks to begin with Nd in return they dont recognize and give rights to any minority in greece. Greece is in e.u democracy is unfair, e.u democracy is only for money thats the only reason why greece is in e. u in the first place...

"Media in Greece also believe that the Albanian census is not trustworthy."

Is there anything trustworthy in Albania, the most corrupt country in Europe?

I agree to the last sentence of the article

(Leonidas, 16 December 2012 22:42)

1-''When the Greeks arrived in Epirus in 2100 BC and were building cities...''
Leone?!, Dinosaurus and Ancient Greeks are Dead and Buried.However,the last KING of EPIRUS,before the arrival of ottomans, is
Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeu.The Prince of Albania and the KING of EPIRUS.
2-''...the Albanians were still hibernating in Caucasus...''
PROVES!Have you got any proves,bcz.,it seems to me that you,Leone,have Solved the ''Albanian puzzel''.Prove it.I will be more than happy to know about the ''country'' of my origin.However,this is not the case,and as a ''greek'' you know that better than Serbs do.
3-''...The Greeks in Northern Epirus despite receiving promises of strong educational and cultural minority rights...''
As you said,the ''greek'' minority declined because of emigration to Greece and we can not build schools for 2 kids left in the village.4 practical reasons it's impossibile and make no sense,however nobody ever stoped them to speak their ''own'' greek language.
4-''many Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones''.
This is what i call Big Fat Greek Lie.Still to this day there is planty of Slavic toponyms dating back to Bulgarian/Serbian Empire times,and NO Albanian GOVERMENT or local population,EVER,took on the task to change such a toponymos,let alone the ''Greek'' ones.Stop feeding ur brain with false information/s and Poisoning your soul with such lies....
Dean the GREAT,Berat,ALBANIA.

Thanks for admitting that Albanians had rights in Serbia and even had schools in their language. No Albanian has admitted that so far.
The article is about minority rights in Albanian not in Greece.
As always, Albanians want something they are not prepared to give to others.
(Peggy, 16 December 2012 20:54)

Greeks have their own schools in Albania.

Yes, you are witnessing the unification of the Albanian conscious & nation! We have defended ourselves against Greek & Serb aggression for many previous century's, & will continue to do so, for many more future century's!!! We shall prevail against all evil....
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

One can only hope you are serious.

"Albanian census is not trustworthy"
Where's the news?
(Joachim, 17 December 2012 15:50)

Read up and you'll find the info you're so interested about.
How trustworthy is Serbian census? Oh pls, spare us of that nonsense.

thenasis

some points I will agree with you. Greek minority not vanished, it is very very small and it sure as hell doesn't run into the 300000 mark. Orthodox Albanians are not Greek, no matter what you believe. Cameria is Greek and will remain Greek, no matter what some raving mad Albanians believe; by the same token Saranda and Gjirokatra are Albanian too and they sure as hell don't belong to 'Northern Epirus'or Greece. Anastasios has to be gotten rid of, simple as that. He came into Albania waving a Greek flag, was roundly booed. Quite right too. As for the origin of Albanians, you're still left with the very unique case of the Albanian language, Indo-European (hence not Turkic or Asian as Leonidas seems to believe), which is why most scholars believe its either Thracian, Dacian or Illyrian. I have never studied Arvanite, but I have heard it and have no trouble understanding it. Do you want me to go on?

If the census is flawed, everyone including Albanians is better off if it is either fixed or discredited. Facts should not be subject to politics. I'm not trying to be anti Albanian, every country has crook politicians.

If the church runs its own census, only the church members will believe it even if it were 100 percent accurate. The only honest way of doing this is if a second census is done by an independent and outside organization both sides trust.

That i promise! Yes, you are witnessing the unification of the Albanian conscious & nation!
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

You promise?
Drop of chuckhole water said it'll make tsunami.. There's a huge rusty truck parked over pothole and when time does it's job bulldozer and paver will come, remove that truck aside and fill asphalt into the chuckhole. You're on our homeland but we must have good roads, you (your "partners") wanted or not. You promise.., I'll die laughing here :) Don't evaporate!

When the Greeks arrived in Epirus in 2100 BC and were building cities like Apolonia,Epidamnus,Amantia etc the Albanians were still hibernating in Caucasus.Therefore,one finds amusing your claims about Chameria being Albanian land when Epirus was Greek land for more than 4000 years.

It's also amusing that Albanians and Turks talk about minority rights like being their favourite domain.The Greeks in Northern Epirus despite receiving promises of strong educational and cultural minority rights (which were never honoured by the Albanian State),suffered from the prohibition of the Greek language,existence of Greek communities outside the 'minority zones' wasn't allowed,many Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones and any Greek dissenter was sent to mining concentration camps in Northern Albania.

It's true that the numbers of Greeks in Northern Epirus declined markedly after the collapse of the communist regime there with the majority of those moving into Greece for a better life. I cannot comment on the statistics but I wouldn't trust thief Berisha either.

BTW How do you plan to get Cameria? Not wityh the mules and donkeys employed by the Albanian Army.Beware,the Adriatic is not far away.
(Leonidas, 16 December 2012 22:42)

Epirus-Epiri = Albania!

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/pelasgian_etruscan_english.html

We shall see how u Greeks fare against our mules & donkeys! We shall see who will have the last laugh

We albanians don't really care what our neighbors think, although we care what the democratic world thinks.
(Shqiptar1, 17 December 2012 03:45)

Cradle of democracy you are!

I think you're always late, actually. Once nobody ever wanted you, the only hug you could get trough the history was a hug of the powers with visible expire date. You never knew what democracy is, you don't have it, even today. You're heavily corrupted "democracy" and your "partners" are imperialist "democracies" who sold better future of their nations to make arsenals and acheive unrealistic imperial goals. If they failed - you failed too, don't you think about that?

We're not real democracy too, but we're mighty power on the spot watching the neighborhood we have., and you're the weakest one in every aspect- including democracy.

In the modern time we live, is easy to make a study by DNA test and I believe that Albanian is nearer West Europe DNA and the Greek one is nearer Asiatic DNA. This is just a fact and not an advantage of Albanians, cause I have no prejudice of Asiatic DNA and say that West Europe DNA is a better one.
(dori tirana, 17 December 2012 11:20)

NO you do not look like europeans - you look like Arabs or Turks!

(Brandon, 17 December 2012 15:11)

The problem that I have with your explanation is that numbers do not add up.The number of Muslims involved in the population exchange between Greece and Turkey was less than 400000 which included large numbers of Turks living in Thessaloniki,Greek muslims from Crete and the Aegean Islands.Therefore, one could deduce the number of Albanians involved were pretty small in order to justify the large number of ethnic Albanians living in Turkey.

Greeks today do not call for any change of borders in the Balkans.

"Albanian census is not trustworthy"
Where's the news?

Greece will not illegally keep what does not belong to Greece! That i promise!
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

Correct. Greece will only take the parts of Epiros which has been occupied by Albania since 1912. It won't take Skadar, which rightfully belongs to Serbia. Whatever's left of Rump Albania can be yours to squat in. Though come to think of it, Dyrrhachium was a Greek city too.

(Dean, 17 December 2012 01:28)

There is not a shred of evidence that Albanians have anything to do with the ancient tribes that once inhabited the Balkans.Ancient civilizations like the Persians,Mesopotamians,Egyptians,Chinese,Greeks and Romans have left a wealth of monuments,inscriptions and other historical manuscripts which proves their existence through time.As far as Illyrians are concerned modern archaeologists have managed to unearth only two inscriptions - one is totally blank and the other is written in Greek when turned upside down.

Now,Orthodox Arbanites are not the same people like Al-Arnauds,Gegs or Tosks and other Albanian Tribes who were brought to Balkans by the Turks.In fact Toska and Gegs arrived in the Balkans at the time of Ottoman expansionism.No wonder the Greek arvanites get very offended when one calls them Albanian.

Also the huge numbers of Turkish Albanians in Turkey-anything to 5 million and in the absence of any historical migrations of Albanians from Albania to Turkey is a reasonable indication that Turkey holds the key on the origins of Albanians.

Many Albanians think that Chams were wrongly prosecuted by the Greek resistance.My own opinion and in light of what happened to nazi collaborators in Europe they got away with murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia_executions

I'd also like to get this message across to my fellow Albanians, who seem to harbor dreams of 'liberating' Cameria. Not one person in Arta, Preveza and the surrounding environs wants to unite with Albania. seriously, its not good to pipe dream. Cameria is as lost to Albania as Constantinople is lost to Greece. get over it.

@Leonida,

If orthodox Arvanite are not the same people as the rest of the Albanians, how come they speak the same language? How come they sing the same songs?

hence not Turkic or Asian as Leonidas seems to believe), which is why most scholars believe its either Thracian, Dacian or Illyrian.
(Nikolle, 17 December 2012 20:31)

Nikolle

My views on the origins of Albanians are irrelevant but what Albanians believe must be backed by empirical evidence (not stories from grandfathers)in order to become credible.As I have said before there isn't a shred of evidence that shows there is link between Albanians and Illyrians or Dardanians to date and therefore such a link cannot be accepted.

I posed the question of the large number of Albanians living in Turkey and since there isn't any historical evidence of Albanian migrations into Turkey one could conclude that Turkey might hold the key to unlock the enigma of the Albanian origins.

BTW I don't see any deluded Greeks beating the drums of war to liberate Northern Epirus.

There are just a few people of Greek Origin left in Albania. Majority of them immigrated back to Greece after communism broke down in Albania. A majority of Albanian Orthodox has also immigrated to other countries. I m Albanian Orthodox, my real name is Uljan and i have no desire to be Greek. Census is real.

Leonidas and all pseudo serbian historians
greeks dont have a link with ancient greece they are a mixture of orthodox slavs albanian and vlach. where as atleast albanians have distinctive clothing which dates back to ancient greece(serbians and greeks dont), language influances which dates back to ancient greek, latin influance of the romans, old serbian/bulgarian and norman influances and the fact that serbians settled albanians in todays greece not to mention eve13 which is idigenous to the area which albanians have the most. There is a huge amount of albanians in turkey as a result of the devsirme and population exchange, theres quite a few serbians/bosnian from the devsirme and also from surrounding areas.Although albanian history has not been recorded like others it doesnt mean they werent there, but was recorded thru language, clothing, customs and songs and but were subjects of the empire who ruled them. to deny any one of these as serbians and greeks do is a travesty of justice to the people and reconciliation process. this will not happen until our neighbours who want the land educate there people

st angelina of serbia was albanian
the serbian great migration were orthodox albanian as painted by peja
javonovic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Menekulo_szerbek.JPG

skenderbeg was albanian and his brother was buried in hilander mount athos in arbanasi section
time will prove us right

what nonsense, what they want is for Orthodox Albanians to be declared Greeks. sorry but there is such a thing as ethnicity (racist connotation though it may carry).

How about having a census, on the makeup of chameria?
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

Albanian carpetbaggers don't count. Hopefully Golden Dawn will chase them back to where they came from 50 years ago.

Yes, we plan on getting Chameria with donkeys and mules, just like we got Kosova from the Serbs. They had the fourth largest army in Europe, and now we are in and they are out. They are not laughing now are they?
(Pirro, 17 December 2012 06:36)
===================================

There is one thing very wrong with your statement. You didn't get "Kosova" from the Serbs, NATO got it and you know it. Why do you Albanians always take credit for someone else's work?
You can try to get more land from others but I can tell you with certainty that it won't go as smooth as grabbing Kosovo went. When you try your sh*t with Greece, FYROM and Montenegro there is no way the US can explain their backing you again. Is everyone else wrong and you are the only ones right?
I would love to see you try this. Really I would because your arses would be kicked back to Albania so fast you wouldn't get a chance to saddle up your donkey.
I only wish you would try this.

Btw,the census results were certified by EU which controlled all the process.

I'll try to sum up what i've read in here. That Greece should build albanian schools for Albanian illegal immigrants many of whom have already left Greece due to the economic crisis. That it should also build arvanite schools for Arvanites despite the fact that no Arvanitis has ever asked for such schools. That it should build schools even for Chams, hundreds of thousands of whom (all oppressed by the nazi greek government of Samaras)live in Parga, Ioannina and elsewhere. That the Illyrians are the prehistoric ancestors of Albanians and that they are a more ancient people than the Greeks. Perhaps they even gave us the alphabet. That the archbishop Anastasios should be gotten rid of by the Albanians (in what way i wonder). That the greek minority of Albania has vanished into thin air. That "Chameria" will soon be liberated from the greek illegal possession. Guys i'm genuinely concerned about your mental health. Such lunacy belongs only in a madhouse.

Beware,the Adriatic is not far away.
(Leonidas, 16 December 2012 22:42)

Serbia is not far away either, Adriatic does not have sharks capable of solving such a pollution problem. This would be (I'm good mathematician) roughly 100.000.000 kilograms of bad meat, bones excluded. On the other hand we'd digest that in 216 hours/ 9 days (we feed our dogs and cats like family members in many cases), who cares about bad meal detoxification in Serbia, anyway. BUT, if you meant only army and not the nation : we'll accept that snack too., 48 hours! Thanks in advance Λεωνίδα!

(Nikolle, 16 December 2012 23:34)

I don't invent numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania%E2%80%93Turkey_relations

We have about 8 thousand Roma, who if Serbia wants can take them, we will donate them as a friendship gift.Greeks are less than 0,4% otherwise are clean(descendants of the Illyrians).

If orthodox Arvanite are not the same people as the rest of the Albanians, how come they speak the same language? How come they sing the same songs?
(Common Sense, 17 December 2012 18:08)
=============================
People adapt to their surroundings. People take others' traditions too.
Hey look at all the Bosnian Muslims. They are not Turkish but they might as well be.
When you are occupied or surrounded by something, chances are you are going to adapt.

I agree with the Greek that Albanians are Turkish immigrants from Asia.Illyrians,my a...

A lot of Europian institution have spent lots of time and lots of money on digging out the Balkans, researching, studying and publishing documents about the origin of Albanian people and their language. In the end they came up with some disturbing findings to neighbouring countries, mainly Slavic and the Greek.

I am sorry for your disappointment but if you really disagree with their findings take it with them.

this comment is a reply to Nikolle

your using Albanias that currently liveing in turky as evidence why albanisn and ilirens are not the same that just proves to me that you realy have no idea about albanians. if your a serb you should no why there is so many albanians in turky becouse you are the reason. 1913 when serbia stole kosova dardania from albania they also killed over 50000 albanians and about a million albaniasn where forced to leave kosovo much like in 1999 and some moved to albania but majority of them moved to turky thats why you have all tho3s albanians in turky today but they stll speak albanian and keep the tradition going.

Leonidas

You hate us too, too much. I don't understand why but you have a anti-albanian obsession. Go for confession I recommend. These mental inventions about albanian history are not a good sign. It's not good to live hating.

Leonida,
Events like this below have contributed to concentration of Albanians in Turkey . IF you have patience and are comfortable listening to another perspective (you don't necessary agree), it will make for an interesting reading. By the way I really like Greek music, and play it in my car routinely. Also love Greek cuisine. Nothing against greek people.

http://espressostalinist.wordpress.com/genocide/albanian-genocide/

That's the point though Leonidas isn't it, that link you gave me, is based on a Turkish paper and the paper supports my view, that there are 1.5 mill people of Albanian ancestry in Turkey, translate the article on google and you'll see. As for the origin of Albanians, as I wrote before Indo European language, hence not Asian, no matter what you believe. I do not know of any Albanian that wants to 'liberate' Cameria either, the Internet trolls not withstanding, but even if there are, they'll be immensely disappointed when they find out that not one person in Cameria wants to be liberated

...People adapt to their surroundings. People take others' traditions too.
Hey look at all the Bosnian Muslims. They are not Turkish but they might as well be.
When you are occupied or surrounded by something, chances are you are going to adapt.
(Peggy, 17 December 2012 21:08) ....
Fisrt of all bosnians speak serbian languange not turkish.

We are talking about language Peggy not traditions.As for surroundings Arvanite people were surround by greeks,not albanians.Arvanites live in Athens,and its outskirts and some islands.Their traditions are close to albanians with the greek infulence but their lenguage is 100% albanian.I challenge every greek to listen arvanitika and if he understands one word I am ready to say arvanitika is greek.On contrary as an albanian, I understand 99% of arvanitika.
Theodoros Pangalos himself,the former deputy PM of Greece claimed that Arvanitika is old Albanian,while he was promoting a book from another arvanite Thanasis Moriatis.
I see that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to albanians.Pure hatered and nonsense.Take it easy Peggy!

@Leonidas,
Since there is no Albanian migration recorded there is a good possibility that they didnt migrate because they where there in Albania,Kosovo etc.
I believe arvanite scolar Aristidh Kola when he claims with facts and evidence that albanians and greeks are the same people but developed in different ways,and arvanites are the common point of both people.

The more I'm reading the more I see that the census was a piece of crap, typical balkanian style, extremely politicized.

The census is totally idiotic.
Traditionally muslims have been half sunni and half bektashi, totally 70% since a census in the 1930s.

This idiotic census shows 56% sunnis and 2% bektashi.
Mind you, albanian muslims don't even know what a sunni is. They say simply muslims.

These idiots don't even know how to manipulate.

They want that free money. Cant blame em for trying.

How about having a census, on the makeup of chameria? Which thru aggression, Greece usurped this Albanian territory! Just as was the case of serbia usurping, the albanian region of dardania-kosova! The time for this region of chameria to be returned to its rightful owner, Albania is at hand! Serbia could not illegally keep what was not Serbia's! So then, Greece will not illegally keep what does not belong to Greece! That i promise! Yes, you are witnessing the unification of the Albanian conscious & nation! We have defended ourselves against Greek & Serb aggression for many previous century's, & will continue to do so, for many more future century's!!! We shall prevail against all evil....

Orthodox church again doing what it does best, screwing up things.

its time for all minorities to stage a protest and get the word out to all minorities around the world from facebooke and other ways from the net and by word of mouth .we know there is about 300,000 greeks and there is 200,000 romas and serbs there is 40,000+ this is more albanian lies.there is only 2 million albanians in albania not 2.3 million like they think and why is that over 400,000 people never did the census in this fake country of alvania.and it showed 82% are alvanians so where are the rest of the people ...they never did the census it sounds like a boycot to me.

The ethnic cleansing of minorities continues, if not always physically, then on paper. What is it with this ethnicity (Albanians), that cannot, and does not, want to live with other ethnicities?

Time for Northern Epirus to declare independence and return to Greece, it's rightful and natural country.

Media and certain officials claim that there are 300,000 Greeks living in Albania.

That number is way out of line and no where near reality. Is just like me saying, there are 3 million Albanians living in Greece.

MARCH ON GREEK BROTHERS AND SISTERS!GOD BE WITH YOU!

Albo Rocky

Albos have more to do with Turkey than with Dardania.Albanians are settlers from Turkey nothing more nothing less.

"Media in Greece also believe that the Albanian census is not trustworthy."

Is there anything trustworthy in Albania, the most corrupt country in Europe?

Greece will not illegally keep what does not belong to Greece! That i promise!
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

When the Greeks arrived in Epirus in 2100 BC and were building cities like Apolonia,Epidamnus,Amantia etc the Albanians were still hibernating in Caucasus.Therefore,one finds amusing your claims about Chameria being Albanian land when Epirus was Greek land for more than 4000 years.

It's also amusing that Albanians and Turks talk about minority rights like being their favourite domain.The Greeks in Northern Epirus despite receiving promises of strong educational and cultural minority rights (which were never honoured by the Albanian State),suffered from the prohibition of the Greek language,existence of Greek communities outside the 'minority zones' wasn't allowed,many Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones and any Greek dissenter was sent to mining concentration camps in Northern Albania.

It's true that the numbers of Greeks in Northern Epirus declined markedly after the collapse of the communist regime there with the majority of those moving into Greece for a better life. I cannot comment on the statistics but I wouldn't trust thief Berisha either.

BTW How do you plan to get Cameria? Not wityh the mules and donkeys employed by the Albanian Army.Beware,the Adriatic is not far away.

At least in Serbia and Macedonia Albanians have some democratic rights.
(Abdullah Saladin, 16 December 2012 19:20)

Maybe - but, inshallah, - they don't deserve them.

'The ethnic cleansing of minorities continues...... (Albanians), that cannot, and does not, want to live with other ethnicities?'
(AcaVeliki, 16 December 2012 17:32)
NO,sir,perception you have is WRONG.
I am a Orthodox myself,however it is not my Fault why Greek Propoganda counts me as a Greek.None of my predecessors,ever,spoke a Greek language or identified his/her own self as a greek.NEVER.
It's not Albania who discriminate the others,but rather Greece.
There is hundred of thousands of Orthodox Albanian Tchams ''Çame'',in today greece,which greece REFUZES to recognize them as Albanians.The Muslim Albanian Tchams ''Çame'',the other half,were either executed/ deported to countries such as Albania and Turkey.This is what i call Discrimination,Genocide and Assimilation,and not the stupid census in Albania.Yes,the number of Orthodox in Albania is Higher,but that said not because of Manipulations,as Greek Propoganda Machine claims,but because of refuzal to participate in such a ''political parody'',as Census Albania.I am 1 of them.
Albanians in Albania ''proper'',especially in South,are way more Liberal than you think,and to often have been ''accused'' as ''non-albanians'',preciesly because of tolerant way of co-existence with other ''ethnicities''.Therefore your claim is totally WRONG.
There is no such a thing as a ''Greek man''/''greek ethnicity'',but rather,Albanians,Sllavs,Aromanians+ some greeks from M.Asia.
4 linguistic reasons we call them Greeks,but they are not.

I think the greeks and other minorities in Albania should get independence, NOW! They have suffered for to long. Albanians think they can take and take and not give anything back. The day will come when Greece i reunited and land stolen by albanians/turks will be returned.

A good part of Korça is Serbo-Macedonian. Last year I was there and make a resident of Korça cry as I spoke to him in Russian and (after decades!) he could answer me back in Serbo-Macedonian without fear of something bad would happen to him. That happened inside of the (new) Pravoslav cathedral of Korca. I tried to visit the icon museum - it was closed, but at least there were two cars around with Bulgarian plates.

Once we would sort out in Albania who is Montenegrin, who is Serb, who is Bulgaro-Macedonian and who is Greek... there won't be Albania anymore (and no one would miss it, good riddance!)

Except the usual Tiranasaurs of B92, of course.

This is a true story, btw, take it or not, up to you. Of course B92-Tiranasauria will deny that, do we really care?

To b92: can you please mention whose source is finding 300000 greeks in albania. I am trying to find a town or a village or city or a region- call it what you want, with at least 10000 thousands greek in albania but there is no way. there are some villages in south of albania but even if you count them by greek way of countings those who say are greeks (1,2 ,5, 10,20 ....) those villages can't make a figure of 100 thousands or at least 10000.
You write about commenting your news that will not publish racial or insulting ones and I do respect it. But please I would ask you What about the truth? Can it be part of your news when talking about albania and albanians.?

Why Greece its not looking its own ethnic minorities. Ethnic minorities in Greece don't have any rights and they are considered as a slaves. I am surprised that nationalistic country like Greece is part of EU. There are over 1 million ethnic orthodox and Muslim Albanians leaving in Greece. Albanians are afraid to speak their language in Greece they don't have schools in their own language nothing. In this aspect i would say that Serbia and Macedonia are much more democratic countries compared to Greece. At least in Serbia and Macedonia Albanians have some democratic rights.

No suprise really, this is what happends when you let a Greek run your orthodox church.

Gone are the times when Greeks used EU and German money to convince Albanian peasants that they were really Greek. What, for 400 euros a month of course you can ge a lot of people to say that their great ggrandfather spoke Greek, and damn those Albanians.

300,000 Greeks? I'm waiting for the 300,000 to go out and protest them. Should be easy, what with the brave oppressed Greeks and the coward Albanians.

But one thing is clear, the orthodox Albanians need to get rid of this Anastasios character.

First of, the orthodox christians are albanian with albanian as their mother tongue, ever since byzantine empire. There is a few greeks in albania but the racist nationalistic nazj greek government does everything it can to block its neighbors evolution in ways that it benefits greece, just bc some ody is orthodox does not mean they are greek... Greece uses religion to its advantage.. How bout the arvanitika( albaniAn speakers) what about them? What about the chams. Greeks demand rights for their so called "own" which actually they"re not even greeks to begin with Nd in return they dont recognize and give rights to any minority in greece. Greece is in e.u democracy is unfair, e.u democracy is only for money thats the only reason why greece is in e. u in the first place...

(Dean, 17 December 2012 01:28)

There is not a shred of evidence that Albanians have anything to do with the ancient tribes that once inhabited the Balkans.Ancient civilizations like the Persians,Mesopotamians,Egyptians,Chinese,Greeks and Romans have left a wealth of monuments,inscriptions and other historical manuscripts which proves their existence through time.As far as Illyrians are concerned modern archaeologists have managed to unearth only two inscriptions - one is totally blank and the other is written in Greek when turned upside down.

Now,Orthodox Arbanites are not the same people like Al-Arnauds,Gegs or Tosks and other Albanian Tribes who were brought to Balkans by the Turks.In fact Toska and Gegs arrived in the Balkans at the time of Ottoman expansionism.No wonder the Greek arvanites get very offended when one calls them Albanian.

Also the huge numbers of Turkish Albanians in Turkey-anything to 5 million and in the absence of any historical migrations of Albanians from Albania to Turkey is a reasonable indication that Turkey holds the key on the origins of Albanians.

Many Albanians think that Chams were wrongly prosecuted by the Greek resistance.My own opinion and in light of what happened to nazi collaborators in Europe they got away with murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia_executions

Yes, we plan on getting Chameria with donkeys and mules, just like we got Kosova from the Serbs. They had the fourth largest army in Europe, and now we are in and they are out. They are not laughing now are they?
(Pirro, 17 December 2012 06:36)
===================================

There is one thing very wrong with your statement. You didn't get "Kosova" from the Serbs, NATO got it and you know it. Why do you Albanians always take credit for someone else's work?
You can try to get more land from others but I can tell you with certainty that it won't go as smooth as grabbing Kosovo went. When you try your sh*t with Greece, FYROM and Montenegro there is no way the US can explain their backing you again. Is everyone else wrong and you are the only ones right?
I would love to see you try this. Really I would because your arses would be kicked back to Albania so fast you wouldn't get a chance to saddle up your donkey.
I only wish you would try this.

"Albanian census is not trustworthy"
Where's the news?

That i promise! Yes, you are witnessing the unification of the Albanian conscious & nation!
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

You promise?
Drop of chuckhole water said it'll make tsunami.. There's a huge rusty truck parked over pothole and when time does it's job bulldozer and paver will come, remove that truck aside and fill asphalt into the chuckhole. You're on our homeland but we must have good roads, you (your "partners") wanted or not. You promise.., I'll die laughing here :) Don't evaporate!

We albanians don't really care what our neighbors think, although we care what the democratic world thinks.
(Shqiptar1, 17 December 2012 03:45)

Cradle of democracy you are!

I think you're always late, actually. Once nobody ever wanted you, the only hug you could get trough the history was a hug of the powers with visible expire date. You never knew what democracy is, you don't have it, even today. You're heavily corrupted "democracy" and your "partners" are imperialist "democracies" who sold better future of their nations to make arsenals and acheive unrealistic imperial goals. If they failed - you failed too, don't you think about that?

We're not real democracy too, but we're mighty power on the spot watching the neighborhood we have., and you're the weakest one in every aspect- including democracy.

In the modern time we live, is easy to make a study by DNA test and I believe that Albanian is nearer West Europe DNA and the Greek one is nearer Asiatic DNA. This is just a fact and not an advantage of Albanians, cause I have no prejudice of Asiatic DNA and say that West Europe DNA is a better one.
(dori tirana, 17 December 2012 11:20)

NO you do not look like europeans - you look like Arabs or Turks!

Census of Albania got EU certification for the standard. Greece is part of EU. But second Greeks all Orthodox are Greek, even Serbs are Greek second them..no more comment

e in Greece they don't have schools in their own language nothing. In this aspect i would say that Serbia and Macedonia are much more democratic countries compared to Greece. At least in Serbia and Macedonia Albanians have some democratic rights.
(Abdullah Saladin, 16 December 2012 19:20)
================================
Thanks for admitting that Albanians had rights in Serbia and even had schools in their language. No Albanian has admitted that so far.
The article is about minority rights in Albanian not in Greece.
As always, Albanians want something they are not prepared to give to others.

This message is to all our neighbors.

We albanians don't really care what our neighbors think, although we care what the democratic world thinks. We are used to your propaganda and lies - nothing new really - and as long as your lies don't influence the democratic world, than we will be fine.

There is something funny about this rejection of albanian census by our neighbors - they kill us, take our land, try to divide our land between them, try to assimilate us and then they wonder - why albania has so little minority (less than 5000 greeks and very few macedonians/slavs).

Well, when you occupy albanian land and start ethnic cleansing, where do you think people from dardania and chameria and other occupied territories run to from getting murdered - they run to albania - a small unoccupied territory that it's still safe. You get it now why albania is so ethnically pure?

If greece didn't occupy Chameria, than albania would have a considerable number of greek minority today. And Kosova has a considerable number of minority after liberation and payback time.

Albanians hope that they have some good neighbors someday.

Peace.

Of course. Nobody believes what Albanians say.

(Brandon, 17 December 2012 15:11)

The problem that I have with your explanation is that numbers do not add up.The number of Muslims involved in the population exchange between Greece and Turkey was less than 400000 which included large numbers of Turks living in Thessaloniki,Greek muslims from Crete and the Aegean Islands.Therefore, one could deduce the number of Albanians involved were pretty small in order to justify the large number of ethnic Albanians living in Turkey.

Greeks today do not call for any change of borders in the Balkans.

"Albanian census is not trustworthy"
Where's the news?
(Joachim, 17 December 2012 15:50)

Read up and you'll find the info you're so interested about.
How trustworthy is Serbian census? Oh pls, spare us of that nonsense.

Greece will not illegally keep what does not belong to Greece! That i promise!
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

Correct. Greece will only take the parts of Epiros which has been occupied by Albania since 1912. It won't take Skadar, which rightfully belongs to Serbia. Whatever's left of Rump Albania can be yours to squat in. Though come to think of it, Dyrrhachium was a Greek city too.

How about having a census, on the makeup of chameria?
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

Albanian carpetbaggers don't count. Hopefully Golden Dawn will chase them back to where they came from 50 years ago.

Beware,the Adriatic is not far away.
(Leonidas, 16 December 2012 22:42)

Serbia is not far away either, Adriatic does not have sharks capable of solving such a pollution problem. This would be (I'm good mathematician) roughly 100.000.000 kilograms of bad meat, bones excluded. On the other hand we'd digest that in 216 hours/ 9 days (we feed our dogs and cats like family members in many cases), who cares about bad meal detoxification in Serbia, anyway. BUT, if you meant only army and not the nation : we'll accept that snack too., 48 hours! Thanks in advance Λεωνίδα!

@Lenida, "When the Greeks arrived in Epirus in 2100 BC and were building cities like Apolonia,Epidamnus,Amantia etc the Albanians were still hibernating in Caucasus..."

When the Greeks arrived in Apolonia, Epidamnus, etc., they found out that the cities had already been build before them by the Illyrians.
Apolonia's original name was Gylakeia, after its founder Gylax of the Taulanti.

But what happen 4000 years ago is one thing, and there's 4000 years of human history since then. You talk about prohibition of Greek language education outside of minority areas? As if Greece provided, or even allowed, Albanian language education in the Cham inhabited areas? Tell me how many Albanian schools are in Parga, Gumenica, Arta, Preveza, or Janina, for the cham children there? How many schools are there for the Arvanites in the Peloponese and Attica?

Yes, we plan on getting Chameria with donkeys and mules, just like we got Kosova from the Serbs. They had the fourth largest army in Europe, and now we are in and they are out. They are not laughing now are they?

Yes, you are witnessing the unification of the Albanian conscious & nation! We have defended ourselves against Greek & Serb aggression for many previous century's, & will continue to do so, for many more future century's!!! We shall prevail against all evil....
(Rocky, 16 December 2012 16:55)

One can only hope you are serious.

"In fact Toska and Gegs arrived in the Balkans at the time of Ottoman expansionism"

this is a new one. quite odd that I as an Albanian, can understand Arvanite. Very odd too that the Arberesh of Italy speak a language that is easily comprehended by Albanians. They too must have come together with the Ottomans, but decided to go to Italy instead...nicer beaches over there

@Leonidas, There is an evidence of Albanian emigration from Yugoslavia and Greece cause to agreement of exchange of people between this countries and Turkey. Also exist the Diaspora of Albanians from 5 centuries of Ottoman Empire.The other way is hard to be proved and don’t exist an single evidence that Albanians comes during Ottoman Empire from Turkey. Even your Serbs friend with a lot of fantasy say that we came in 1043 by Sicily ( another funny story this).
In the modern time we live, is easy to make a study by DNA test and I believe that Albanian is nearer West Europe DNA and the Greek one is nearer Asiatic DNA. This is just a fact and not an advantage of Albanians, cause I have no prejudice of Asiatic DNA and say that West Europe DNA is a better one.

I am orthodox albanian and not greek .

Albanian orthodoxs have been in the fronline for the Albanian indepenndence.

Someone says tha Korca is a slavomacedonian city????What the hell r u talking about?

I live in Korca for generations and behind the Orthodox Cathetral.There are NO greeks and macedonians in Korca.Few(3 or 4) familes with greek nationality left Albania in 1989.Those are greeks in Korca.
Korca always have fought against greeks,and its villages have been burn by greeks in 1918.
Greek gonverment have spent millions of euros (from Germany and EU ) to convince that people from Korca are greek.People were smarter,they got the money and declare themselves Albanian.
Korca has been and is the crandle of Albanian patriotism.I am albanian from Korca and proud of it.And so are all people from Korca.

All census in the balkans are political tools.

Out of all, greeks shouldn't complain about minorities because they do not accept that minorities exist in Greece, though they do.

Greek historiography claims that all southern albania is greek. I say kiss my ass.
I am practicing orthodox, I am albanian, I have no freaking desire to be greek.

We have about 8 thousand Roma, who if Serbia wants can take them, we will donate them as a friendship gift.Greeks are less than 0,4% otherwise are clean(descendants of the Illyrians).

what nonsense, what they want is for Orthodox Albanians to be declared Greeks. sorry but there is such a thing as ethnicity (racist connotation though it may carry).

(Leonidas, 16 December 2012 22:42)

1-''When the Greeks arrived in Epirus in 2100 BC and were building cities...''
Leone?!, Dinosaurus and Ancient Greeks are Dead and Buried.However,the last KING of EPIRUS,before the arrival of ottomans, is
Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeu.The Prince of Albania and the KING of EPIRUS.
2-''...the Albanians were still hibernating in Caucasus...''
PROVES!Have you got any proves,bcz.,it seems to me that you,Leone,have Solved the ''Albanian puzzel''.Prove it.I will be more than happy to know about the ''country'' of my origin.However,this is not the case,and as a ''greek'' you know that better than Serbs do.
3-''...The Greeks in Northern Epirus despite receiving promises of strong educational and cultural minority rights...''
As you said,the ''greek'' minority declined because of emigration to Greece and we can not build schools for 2 kids left in the village.4 practical reasons it's impossibile and make no sense,however nobody ever stoped them to speak their ''own'' greek language.
4-''many Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones''.
This is what i call Big Fat Greek Lie.Still to this day there is planty of Slavic toponyms dating back to Bulgarian/Serbian Empire times,and NO Albanian GOVERMENT or local population,EVER,took on the task to change such a toponymos,let alone the ''Greek'' ones.Stop feeding ur brain with false information/s and Poisoning your soul with such lies....
Dean the GREAT,Berat,ALBANIA.

When the Greeks arrived in Epirus in 2100 BC and were building cities like Apolonia,Epidamnus,Amantia etc the Albanians were still hibernating in Caucasus.Therefore,one finds amusing your claims about Chameria being Albanian land when Epirus was Greek land for more than 4000 years.

It's also amusing that Albanians and Turks talk about minority rights like being their favourite domain.The Greeks in Northern Epirus despite receiving promises of strong educational and cultural minority rights (which were never honoured by the Albanian State),suffered from the prohibition of the Greek language,existence of Greek communities outside the 'minority zones' wasn't allowed,many Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones and any Greek dissenter was sent to mining concentration camps in Northern Albania.

It's true that the numbers of Greeks in Northern Epirus declined markedly after the collapse of the communist regime there with the majority of those moving into Greece for a better life. I cannot comment on the statistics but I wouldn't trust thief Berisha either.

BTW How do you plan to get Cameria? Not wityh the mules and donkeys employed by the Albanian Army.Beware,the Adriatic is not far away.
(Leonidas, 16 December 2012 22:42)

Epirus-Epiri = Albania!

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/pelasgian_etruscan_english.html

We shall see how u Greeks fare against our mules & donkeys! We shall see who will have the last laugh

Thanks for admitting that Albanians had rights in Serbia and even had schools in their language. No Albanian has admitted that so far.
The article is about minority rights in Albanian not in Greece.
As always, Albanians want something they are not prepared to give to others.
(Peggy, 16 December 2012 20:54)

Greeks have their own schools in Albania.

"Correct. Greece will only take the parts of Epiros which has been occupied by Albania since 1912."

Greece doesn't have the cash to look after what it DOES possess never mind absorbing new territory. How 'bout Istanbul, you going to take that one too?

Btw,the census results were certified by EU which controlled all the process.

@Leonida,

If orthodox Arvanite are not the same people as the rest of the Albanians, how come they speak the same language? How come they sing the same songs?

thenasis

some points I will agree with you. Greek minority not vanished, it is very very small and it sure as hell doesn't run into the 300000 mark. Orthodox Albanians are not Greek, no matter what you believe. Cameria is Greek and will remain Greek, no matter what some raving mad Albanians believe; by the same token Saranda and Gjirokatra are Albanian too and they sure as hell don't belong to 'Northern Epirus'or Greece. Anastasios has to be gotten rid of, simple as that. He came into Albania waving a Greek flag, was roundly booed. Quite right too. As for the origin of Albanians, you're still left with the very unique case of the Albanian language, Indo-European (hence not Turkic or Asian as Leonidas seems to believe), which is why most scholars believe its either Thracian, Dacian or Illyrian. I have never studied Arvanite, but I have heard it and have no trouble understanding it. Do you want me to go on?

Leonidas and all pseudo serbian historians
greeks dont have a link with ancient greece they are a mixture of orthodox slavs albanian and vlach. where as atleast albanians have distinctive clothing which dates back to ancient greece(serbians and greeks dont), language influances which dates back to ancient greek, latin influance of the romans, old serbian/bulgarian and norman influances and the fact that serbians settled albanians in todays greece not to mention eve13 which is idigenous to the area which albanians have the most. There is a huge amount of albanians in turkey as a result of the devsirme and population exchange, theres quite a few serbians/bosnian from the devsirme and also from surrounding areas.Although albanian history has not been recorded like others it doesnt mean they werent there, but was recorded thru language, clothing, customs and songs and but were subjects of the empire who ruled them. to deny any one of these as serbians and greeks do is a travesty of justice to the people and reconciliation process. this will not happen until our neighbours who want the land educate there people

st angelina of serbia was albanian
the serbian great migration were orthodox albanian as painted by peja
javonovic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Menekulo_szerbek.JPG

skenderbeg was albanian and his brother was buried in hilander mount athos in arbanasi section
time will prove us right

I agree to the last sentence of the article

Leonidas,
You sound like an educated man, as such you have probably heard of the large swap of population between Ottomans and Greece. Hence there is a large population of Albanians there.There is no evidence of an Albanian exodus anywhere in history books. Also the language is considered indo-European by most non-balkans linguists, and classified as unique branch(same as Greek). You also probably know that in ancient times, greek was the language of culture and science (due to great achievements of the Greeks). Noble man from all around the world would used it to communicate with each others( even Romans). Calling them all Greeks may be convenient, but as realistic as calling all english-speaking people British. The fact is that both our people have lived together ,in the same territory , for a long while. We will probably continue to do so for many more years, so we better learn to get along. And no neither Chameria,nor Northern Epirus are going anywhere, no matter what "Red and Black Alliance" or "Golden Dawn" say.

If orthodox Arvanite are not the same people as the rest of the Albanians, how come they speak the same language? How come they sing the same songs?
(Common Sense, 17 December 2012 18:08)
=============================
People adapt to their surroundings. People take others' traditions too.
Hey look at all the Bosnian Muslims. They are not Turkish but they might as well be.
When you are occupied or surrounded by something, chances are you are going to adapt.

hence not Turkic or Asian as Leonidas seems to believe), which is why most scholars believe its either Thracian, Dacian or Illyrian.
(Nikolle, 17 December 2012 20:31)

Nikolle

My views on the origins of Albanians are irrelevant but what Albanians believe must be backed by empirical evidence (not stories from grandfathers)in order to become credible.As I have said before there isn't a shred of evidence that shows there is link between Albanians and Illyrians or Dardanians to date and therefore such a link cannot be accepted.

I posed the question of the large number of Albanians living in Turkey and since there isn't any historical evidence of Albanian migrations into Turkey one could conclude that Turkey might hold the key to unlock the enigma of the Albanian origins.

BTW I don't see any deluded Greeks beating the drums of war to liberate Northern Epirus.

The church has protested the outcome for the self declared orthodox christians, 6.75%, not the self declared ethnic greek population.

It's omonia which always claims that 10% of albania's population is greek, which is a hallucination.
My uncle's wife is from the greek minority, Dropull. There were no more than 60 thousands ethnic greeks in albania before everybody left to greece. I'm surprised there are still any left actually.

All in all, there's something wrong with the census. Catholics can't outnumber the orthodox, though many orthodox left to greece after communism collapsed.
The census shows 56% as muslims, which way lower than 75% previously thought.

Now, in albania, being a muslim means that the family has a muslim background, but not self identified as muslim believer.
Same for christians.

I'd also like to get this message across to my fellow Albanians, who seem to harbor dreams of 'liberating' Cameria. Not one person in Arta, Preveza and the surrounding environs wants to unite with Albania. seriously, its not good to pipe dream. Cameria is as lost to Albania as Constantinople is lost to Greece. get over it.

(Nikolle, 16 December 2012 23:34)

I don't invent numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania%E2%80%93Turkey_relations

A lot of Europian institution have spent lots of time and lots of money on digging out the Balkans, researching, studying and publishing documents about the origin of Albanian people and their language. In the end they came up with some disturbing findings to neighbouring countries, mainly Slavic and the Greek.

I am sorry for your disappointment but if you really disagree with their findings take it with them.

I'll try to sum up what i've read in here. That Greece should build albanian schools for Albanian illegal immigrants many of whom have already left Greece due to the economic crisis. That it should also build arvanite schools for Arvanites despite the fact that no Arvanitis has ever asked for such schools. That it should build schools even for Chams, hundreds of thousands of whom (all oppressed by the nazi greek government of Samaras)live in Parga, Ioannina and elsewhere. That the Illyrians are the prehistoric ancestors of Albanians and that they are a more ancient people than the Greeks. Perhaps they even gave us the alphabet. That the archbishop Anastasios should be gotten rid of by the Albanians (in what way i wonder). That the greek minority of Albania has vanished into thin air. That "Chameria" will soon be liberated from the greek illegal possession. Guys i'm genuinely concerned about your mental health. Such lunacy belongs only in a madhouse.

I agree with the Greek that Albanians are Turkish immigrants from Asia.Illyrians,my a...

If the census is flawed, everyone including Albanians is better off if it is either fixed or discredited. Facts should not be subject to politics. I'm not trying to be anti Albanian, every country has crook politicians.

If the church runs its own census, only the church members will believe it even if it were 100 percent accurate. The only honest way of doing this is if a second census is done by an independent and outside organization both sides trust.

Another orthodox Albanian that is not Greek.

...People adapt to their surroundings. People take others' traditions too.
Hey look at all the Bosnian Muslims. They are not Turkish but they might as well be.
When you are occupied or surrounded by something, chances are you are going to adapt.
(Peggy, 17 December 2012 21:08) ....
Fisrt of all bosnians speak serbian languange not turkish.

We are talking about language Peggy not traditions.As for surroundings Arvanite people were surround by greeks,not albanians.Arvanites live in Athens,and its outskirts and some islands.Their traditions are close to albanians with the greek infulence but their lenguage is 100% albanian.I challenge every greek to listen arvanitika and if he understands one word I am ready to say arvanitika is greek.On contrary as an albanian, I understand 99% of arvanitika.
Theodoros Pangalos himself,the former deputy PM of Greece claimed that Arvanitika is old Albanian,while he was promoting a book from another arvanite Thanasis Moriatis.
I see that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to albanians.Pure hatered and nonsense.Take it easy Peggy!

@Leonidas,
Since there is no Albanian migration recorded there is a good possibility that they didnt migrate because they where there in Albania,Kosovo etc.
I believe arvanite scolar Aristidh Kola when he claims with facts and evidence that albanians and greeks are the same people but developed in different ways,and arvanites are the common point of both people.

Leonidas

You hate us too, too much. I don't understand why but you have a anti-albanian obsession. Go for confession I recommend. These mental inventions about albanian history are not a good sign. It's not good to live hating.

The census is totally idiotic.
Traditionally muslims have been half sunni and half bektashi, totally 70% since a census in the 1930s.

This idiotic census shows 56% sunnis and 2% bektashi.
Mind you, albanian muslims don't even know what a sunni is. They say simply muslims.

These idiots don't even know how to manipulate.

There are just a few people of Greek Origin left in Albania. Majority of them immigrated back to Greece after communism broke down in Albania. A majority of Albanian Orthodox has also immigrated to other countries. I m Albanian Orthodox, my real name is Uljan and i have no desire to be Greek. Census is real.

Leonida,
Events like this below have contributed to concentration of Albanians in Turkey . IF you have patience and are comfortable listening to another perspective (you don't necessary agree), it will make for an interesting reading. By the way I really like Greek music, and play it in my car routinely. Also love Greek cuisine. Nothing against greek people.

http://espressostalinist.wordpress.com/genocide/albanian-genocide/

That's the point though Leonidas isn't it, that link you gave me, is based on a Turkish paper and the paper supports my view, that there are 1.5 mill people of Albanian ancestry in Turkey, translate the article on google and you'll see. As for the origin of Albanians, as I wrote before Indo European language, hence not Asian, no matter what you believe. I do not know of any Albanian that wants to 'liberate' Cameria either, the Internet trolls not withstanding, but even if there are, they'll be immensely disappointed when they find out that not one person in Cameria wants to be liberated

Church, ethnic Greeks reject results of Albanian census

When presented with truth, just play the illiteracy card for those that did the counting. You'll get
sympathy that way instead of scorn.

this comment is a reply to Nikolle

your using Albanias that currently liveing in turky as evidence why albanisn and ilirens are not the same that just proves to me that you realy have no idea about albanians. if your a serb you should no why there is so many albanians in turky becouse you are the reason. 1913 when serbia stole kosova dardania from albania they also killed over 50000 albanians and about a million albaniasn where forced to leave kosovo much like in 1999 and some moved to albania but majority of them moved to turky thats why you have all tho3s albanians in turky today but they stll speak albanian and keep the tradition going.

They want that free money. Cant blame em for trying.

The more I'm reading the more I see that the census was a piece of crap, typical balkanian style, extremely politicized.

It's true that the numbers of Greeks in Northern Epirus declined markedly after the collapse of the communist regime there with the majority of those moving into Greece for a better life. I cannot comment on the statistics but I wouldn't trust thief Berisha either.

BTW How do you plan to get Cameria?


1. Nobody is planing to get Cameria despite what you hear on this forum. The point is to undo a hitorical wrong a henious crime. What happened there was mass punishment from newborn to 100 years old to an ethnic group without due process of law without a single court decision. Now after removing all the layers of BS coming from Athens, this is what remains. These people have the deeds of their lands in Greece that to this day remain usurped by the Greek state due to the War Law still remaining in place. At the very least these people deserve to be paid for their lands being taken by force but also a recognition that was done to them was wrong. This is something that is easily fixable if the Greeks stop acting like borders have never moved and villages were left on the other side of the border. The Cams are an ethnically cleansed minority. Simple as that. Move on.

2. I dont trust Berisha census either but neither do I trust the numbers of church who headed by a Greek who got that position because of Berisha's political manouvering diggs the graves of children and women and claims them to be Greek soldiers. Your guy has committed way to many sins to be trusted with anything.