Croatia "unpleasantly surprised" by criticism

"The Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs has stated it was unpleasantly surprised by a statement from Serbian President Tomislav Nikolić.
It said that "such words do not help normalize the relations in the region"."

That's true, but a Croatian president celebrating the return of the acquitted generals is not helpful, neither.

The Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs being such Hermits and Puritans has stated it was unpleasantly surprised by a statement from Serbian President Tomislav Nikolic, but Most People are not surprised that Croatia would Deny these Tame Facts.

It said that such words do not help normalize the relations in the region, and what is someone who is not normal defining what normal is, not just between Serbia and Croatia, but the REGION no less.

Would words such as the Innocent are Guilty, and the Guilty are Innocent, and that Genocide is normal help normalize relations in the REGION?

Disagreement with The Hague decision to acquit former Croatian generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markac of charges of Genocide committed against the Serbs are Proven FACTS.

Croatia said that has completed all of its obligations regarding The Hague following international law, and we know that Croatia during WW 2 completed all of its obligations under the Fourth Reich.

That Shameful Biased Political ‘verdict’ PROVES that where there is smoke, there id fire, and Croatia is using the words war crimes committed in Croatia and Operation Storm, and if there were such purity, then there would not have been a Trial, or that Operation Storm is clearly Proven to have taken place.

Croatian needs to TRY the War Criminals of General Ante Gotovina and General Mladen Markac crimes suspects find them and Franjo Tudman and Croatia Guilty of Genocide against the Innocent Serbian People.

The Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs was quoted as saying the verdict "indicates clearly the two generals are not responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia and that Operation Storm was not a joint criminal enterprise".

My question is if the 2 generals are not responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia, who is responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia?

Operation "Storm" as everybody sane knows,was a joint criminal enterprise of the US (Clinton) and Croatian(Tudjman) governmets and the ICC in Hague can not work against its founder,which by the way itself does not recognizes any courtjurisdiction over its citizens.Right?

Well in this case Serbia should turn the tables on Hague in respect to Karadjic and Mladic. Both Croatia and Serbia have been accused of ethnic clensing so why not set them all free. After all it was a cival ware created by outside interference to say the least.

My question is if the 2 generals are not responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia, who is responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia?
(robert1899, 27 November 2012 15:43)

Those who committed them are responsible. Just because crimes were committed, it does not necessarily mean that they were committed by the head of the state or of the army. For example, even though crimes were committed by Serbia in Kosovo, the same court did acquitt Serbia's president. But I'm not going to ask "if Serbia's president was not responsible for the war crimes committed in Kosovo, who is responsible for the war crimes committed in Kosovo" because that's a question that does not make sense!

@icj1,

Croatia's president was not being prosecuted for Operation Storm so your comparison to Serbia is baseless. The croatian military leaders are directly responsible for the actions of their subordinates. Since the military leaders refused to put a stop to or punish the actions of their subordinates they are held directly accountable for these actions. That is exactly what the hague argued when top Serbian brass was convicted, would you argue that Mladic went into the woods looking for Muslims with his hunting rifle? If so, the hague should set him free immediately because everyone knows he personally never fired a single shot during the war.

Shame on Nikolic for hurting Croatia's feelings.

Croatia's fake outrage is unpleasantly unsurprising.

I doubt that one person writing here has read the actual judgement from the Hague. If you do, you will see that the appeal was granted because the original convictions were nearly entirely predicated on the 200 meter standard - basically: any shells that fell more than 200 meters from a legitimate target were considered indiscriminate shelling, targeting civilians and with the purpose of instilling fear driving people out of the region. The prosecution SCREWED UP, they based their entire conviction on this single issue. When this was invalidated, there was no choice but to grant appeal, this is how the law works. But for a second, consider this idiotic idea they based their case on. They needed a convenient easy way to decide what is civilian shelling, so they choose a 200 meter zone as a magical number that makes a shell legitimate or illegitimate. There is no good science or military evidence behind this. Think about it - a shell is fine if it hits a church 199 meters away from a factory or hits a school full of children as long as it is only 199.4 meters away but it is illegitimate if it hits an empty field 200 meters away! This is ludicrous!! Instead of documenting each shell strike they used this 200 meter nonsense as the lynchpin of their case! This is sloppy legal work! you can not blame the Croats, UN, or ICTY, you have to blame the prosecution. Of course they are pretending disappointment but they knew their case could not hold up to appeal!

Operation "Storm" as everybody sane knows,was a joint criminal enterprise of the US (Clinton) and Croatian(Tudjman) governmets and the ICC in Hague can not work against its founder,which by the way itself does not recognizes any courtjurisdiction over its citizens.Right?
(Sinisa, 27 November 2012 17:03)

You have a contradiction in the same sentence, dear - that's what happens when you try to twist logic. How can somebody which is not the founder of ICC be the founder of ICC ?!

Croatia's president was not being prosecuted for Operation Storm so your comparison to Serbia is baseless. The croatian military leaders are directly responsible for the actions of their subordinates.
(robert1899, 27 November 2012 21:10)

Croatia's president was dead by the time of the indictment and unfortunately we can't revive him. In any case, my point was that the same way that the Court did not hold Serbia's leader responsible for the for the actions of his subordinates, it also did not hold Croatia's leaders responsible for the for the actions of their subordinates. The responsibility for the actions of the sbuordinates is not automatic, dear, it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, and in both cases (Serbia's president and Croatia's head of the army) the prosecution failed to do so and therefore the Court acquitted them.

Croatians shouldn't be too worried what Nikolic says because tomorrow, as usual, he'll have a completely different standpoint. What is he thinking, the judges that overturned the conviction ruling are a Jamaican, a Turk and an American. How can you blame Croatia? How can you blame anyone without facts? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, they were not guilty?

what? no mention of ww2 here and ustasa atrocities? how can this be? people are actually staying on topic for once.

and no mention of the turks invading bih 400 years ago? wow, this must be a first.

Croatians shouldn't be too worried what Nikolic says because tomorrow, as usual, he'll have a completely different standpoint. What is he thinking, the judges that overturned the conviction ruling are a Jamaican, a Turk and an American. How can you blame Croatia? How can you blame anyone without facts? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, they were not guilty?
(T, 28 November 2012 18:58)

That's not why they were acquitted, everyone knows what happened. Denying that crimes against humanity took place is not a great policy, tread carefully.

The Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs being such Hermits and Puritans has stated it was unpleasantly surprised by a statement from Serbian President Tomislav Nikolic, but Most People are not surprised that Croatia would Deny these Tame Facts.

It said that such words do not help normalize the relations in the region, and what is someone who is not normal defining what normal is, not just between Serbia and Croatia, but the REGION no less.

Would words such as the Innocent are Guilty, and the Guilty are Innocent, and that Genocide is normal help normalize relations in the REGION?

Disagreement with The Hague decision to acquit former Croatian generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markac of charges of Genocide committed against the Serbs are Proven FACTS.

Croatia said that has completed all of its obligations regarding The Hague following international law, and we know that Croatia during WW 2 completed all of its obligations under the Fourth Reich.

That Shameful Biased Political ‘verdict’ PROVES that where there is smoke, there id fire, and Croatia is using the words war crimes committed in Croatia and Operation Storm, and if there were such purity, then there would not have been a Trial, or that Operation Storm is clearly Proven to have taken place.

Croatian needs to TRY the War Criminals of General Ante Gotovina and General Mladen Markac crimes suspects find them and Franjo Tudman and Croatia Guilty of Genocide against the Innocent Serbian People.

"The Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs has stated it was unpleasantly surprised by a statement from Serbian President Tomislav Nikolić.
It said that "such words do not help normalize the relations in the region"."

That's true, but a Croatian president celebrating the return of the acquitted generals is not helpful, neither.

My question is if the 2 generals are not responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia, who is responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia?
(robert1899, 27 November 2012 15:43)

Those who committed them are responsible. Just because crimes were committed, it does not necessarily mean that they were committed by the head of the state or of the army. For example, even though crimes were committed by Serbia in Kosovo, the same court did acquitt Serbia's president. But I'm not going to ask "if Serbia's president was not responsible for the war crimes committed in Kosovo, who is responsible for the war crimes committed in Kosovo" because that's a question that does not make sense!

Operation "Storm" as everybody sane knows,was a joint criminal enterprise of the US (Clinton) and Croatian(Tudjman) governmets and the ICC in Hague can not work against its founder,which by the way itself does not recognizes any courtjurisdiction over its citizens.Right?

Well in this case Serbia should turn the tables on Hague in respect to Karadjic and Mladic. Both Croatia and Serbia have been accused of ethnic clensing so why not set them all free. After all it was a cival ware created by outside interference to say the least.

The Croatian Ministry of Foreign Affairs was quoted as saying the verdict "indicates clearly the two generals are not responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia and that Operation Storm was not a joint criminal enterprise".

My question is if the 2 generals are not responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia, who is responsible for the war crimes committed in Croatia?

Shame on Nikolic for hurting Croatia's feelings.

Operation "Storm" as everybody sane knows,was a joint criminal enterprise of the US (Clinton) and Croatian(Tudjman) governmets and the ICC in Hague can not work against its founder,which by the way itself does not recognizes any courtjurisdiction over its citizens.Right?
(Sinisa, 27 November 2012 17:03)

You have a contradiction in the same sentence, dear - that's what happens when you try to twist logic. How can somebody which is not the founder of ICC be the founder of ICC ?!

@icj1,

Croatia's president was not being prosecuted for Operation Storm so your comparison to Serbia is baseless. The croatian military leaders are directly responsible for the actions of their subordinates. Since the military leaders refused to put a stop to or punish the actions of their subordinates they are held directly accountable for these actions. That is exactly what the hague argued when top Serbian brass was convicted, would you argue that Mladic went into the woods looking for Muslims with his hunting rifle? If so, the hague should set him free immediately because everyone knows he personally never fired a single shot during the war.

Croatia's president was not being prosecuted for Operation Storm so your comparison to Serbia is baseless. The croatian military leaders are directly responsible for the actions of their subordinates.
(robert1899, 27 November 2012 21:10)

Croatia's president was dead by the time of the indictment and unfortunately we can't revive him. In any case, my point was that the same way that the Court did not hold Serbia's leader responsible for the for the actions of his subordinates, it also did not hold Croatia's leaders responsible for the for the actions of their subordinates. The responsibility for the actions of the sbuordinates is not automatic, dear, it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, and in both cases (Serbia's president and Croatia's head of the army) the prosecution failed to do so and therefore the Court acquitted them.

Croatia's fake outrage is unpleasantly unsurprising.

I doubt that one person writing here has read the actual judgement from the Hague. If you do, you will see that the appeal was granted because the original convictions were nearly entirely predicated on the 200 meter standard - basically: any shells that fell more than 200 meters from a legitimate target were considered indiscriminate shelling, targeting civilians and with the purpose of instilling fear driving people out of the region. The prosecution SCREWED UP, they based their entire conviction on this single issue. When this was invalidated, there was no choice but to grant appeal, this is how the law works. But for a second, consider this idiotic idea they based their case on. They needed a convenient easy way to decide what is civilian shelling, so they choose a 200 meter zone as a magical number that makes a shell legitimate or illegitimate. There is no good science or military evidence behind this. Think about it - a shell is fine if it hits a church 199 meters away from a factory or hits a school full of children as long as it is only 199.4 meters away but it is illegitimate if it hits an empty field 200 meters away! This is ludicrous!! Instead of documenting each shell strike they used this 200 meter nonsense as the lynchpin of their case! This is sloppy legal work! you can not blame the Croats, UN, or ICTY, you have to blame the prosecution. Of course they are pretending disappointment but they knew their case could not hold up to appeal!

Croatians shouldn't be too worried what Nikolic says because tomorrow, as usual, he'll have a completely different standpoint. What is he thinking, the judges that overturned the conviction ruling are a Jamaican, a Turk and an American. How can you blame Croatia? How can you blame anyone without facts? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, they were not guilty?

Croatians shouldn't be too worried what Nikolic says because tomorrow, as usual, he'll have a completely different standpoint. What is he thinking, the judges that overturned the conviction ruling are a Jamaican, a Turk and an American. How can you blame Croatia? How can you blame anyone without facts? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, they were not guilty?
(T, 28 November 2012 18:58)

That's not why they were acquitted, everyone knows what happened. Denying that crimes against humanity took place is not a great policy, tread carefully.

what? no mention of ww2 here and ustasa atrocities? how can this be? people are actually staying on topic for once.

and no mention of the turks invading bih 400 years ago? wow, this must be a first.