UNGA to hold public debate in wake of Hague ruling

The Croation acquittals are a huge blow to the rule of law, however, a big win for political power. It is a bloody disgusting situation and noone can be proud of this. Those responsible for fiddling should hang their heads in shame.

As someone who was not familiar to Vuk Jeremic’s politics before he came to the position UN General Assembly President, I understand completely the importance of this debate. Serbia has to learn to be persuasive in presenting facts and to clearly focus on strong arguments, even if decisions are painful. Dialogue method should be replaced by Methods of qualitative communication. Try to avoid provocations, stay calm and work claver. One day justice will come to light. Wish you all the best.

Vuk is basically doing what any Serb serving as UNGA President would, and that includes subjective and emotional comments on social media, the consequences of which are sure to be minor given the brief media cycle.

Ned Taylor makes a good point about the broader world perspective -- while Serbs and their sympathizes are outraged, Serbian enemies are delighted -- and I would just add that many more in the world really couldn't care less.

That the UN is a flawed organization should come as no surprise to anyone -- we're living in an unjust world. To put things in perspective, what was done to prevent the genocides in Rwanda and Darfur in the past 20 years? What is being done to stop the horrors still taking place in countries such as DR Congo, Syria and Burma?

As for the Balkans, we must remember that many, perhaps most, observing the 90s wars from abroad (not to mention the many viewing the conflicts from inside) considered Serbs to be the primary aggressors. Yes, around a quarter of a million ethnic Serbs were evicted from Croatia in spring and summer 1995, but what of the Serbian atrocities committed in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo? The brutal shelling of Vukovar, Dubrovnik, Sarajevo; the assault on Muslims in eastern BiH in spring 1992; the trucks filled with Albanian corpses showing up in Serbia proper; and, of course, Srebrenica.

None of this excuses any miscarriage of justice in cases involving crimes against Serbs, but remember, all legal systems are flawed.

Vuk Jeremic - Typical comment from a Serb. 2 respected men have been cleared by not local courts but by the International court and you Vuk who is supposed to be neutral working for the U.N continue to spew your hate only because they are Croat. Did you cause such a farce when convicted war criminal Veselin Šljivančanin originally recieved only 5 years for the slaughter of 300 unarmed civilians / wounded solidiers at Ovcari Farm. Not a word from you or your beloved Serbian government about injustice. How can Serbia ever be excepted as a future European partner when it behaves in such a manner.

Good initiative. The ICTY is dominated by Americans and Anglos from the common wealth who were provided for "free" by their respective countries. I know that because I know people working there from non Anglo-American countries who were highly frustrated by that fact. Bring the discussion to the level of the UNGA to discuss the impartiality of the tribunal.

This clown embarrassed UN! " Organ trade ". blablabla do you have evidence? Hell no! Ban Ki Moon get rid of this clown ASAP, even though you're a joke as well.

I am sure that like many Serbs Mr Jeremic is distressed at the verdict last week in the Hague. However, unlike those other Serbs he is the President of the UNGA and as such should be aware that he should distinguish very carefully between the occasions on which he is expressing a personal view and those when he is speaking in his official capacity and therefore on behalf of others. There is no reason why there should not be a debate about the role of all war crimes tribunals that have been set up under the auspices of the UN and now is as good a time as any to see what can be learned for the future. The debate should not simply be about a decision that has angered the President of the body but about the whole process of justice and reconcilliation. Vuk should bear in mind that although he and others did not agree with the verdict concerning Operation Storm, many people are happy with the overall efforts of the ICTY and accept the fact that three experienced senior judges came to the conclusion that the appeal should be upheld. As stated previously I am in no position to comment on the verdict as I have never had the opportunity to view the facts in an unbiased format.

Oh yes because a UNGA debate is really going to matter! :-)

Ok lets repeat what Jeremic is saying. The UN appointed court has was wrong and this decision cast a cloud on the UN's ability in such matters. Then he says let those who chose to let EULEX investigate the organ trade issue instead of the UN take note.
Maybe Jeremic needs to step back and think before speaking.

(Nenad, 19 November 2012 13:50)
That is the point Nenad: Serbs were/are prosecuted/convicted for the crimes that you mentioned. But disproportionally more Serbs receive disproportionally higher sentences while purpotrators of crimes against Serbs are not or not to the fullest extend prosecuted. The court now makes it sound like the expulsion of 200,000 people it not such a big deal.

RESPECT for the President of the United Nations General Assembly Mr Vuk Jeremic, wish you all the best with the public debate.
P.S. Regards for Croats and Albanians, continue to spread hatred, it's always expected from your side.

No matter how strong and subjective felt, Jeremic’s decision to schedule an international public debate for discussion about the work of the Hague Tribunal is one of the key thinks for understanding and reconsideration of justice. Expanding this issues to wider communities (such as academic, civil associations, etc.), the debate has the potential to consider whether this institution is still necessary, as well as to note when it came to its, evident collapse.

Nenad- by far the largest victims of the latest war were Serbs. You are infected by a virus that doesn't understand truth.

US/CIA Planned and executed, they call it Justified Ethnic Cleansing (LOL)only when the USA does it...HYPOCRITES! The true ENEMY of SERBS is the USA. Their time will come,than the world will celebrate

Oh no :)

Jeremic doesn't need to resign given his comments. Murderers were set free. How would YOU react? The fact that the Croation people have welcomed Gotovina and Markac with open arms truly shows that the Croation people believe the propaganda that has been fed to them over the last few decades. The Croation people are blind to the fact that they played an equal role in the tragic events that occurred in Croatia and Bosnia. To justify and celebrate ethnic cleansing is a travesty. Fascist Croatia is alive and well, just as is in WW2 when fascist Croation Ustase murdered Serbs, we all know about Jasenovac. Croats will never apologize for their crimes but we all know the truth. Good luck to those people.

Nenad- by far the largest victims of the latest war were Serbs. You are infected by a virus that doesn't understand truth.
(Wally, 19 November 2012 15:44)

And what war would that be?

Because it can't be the Kosovo War as that statment would be inccorect.

"The fact that the Croation people have welcomed Gotovina and Markac with open arms truly shows that the Croation people believe the propaganda that has been fed to them over the last few decades."
(Julie, 19 November 2012 16:31)

Which doesn't make them different from the (not so few) Serbs who believed the propaganda and still nowadays see Mladic and Karadzic as 'Serbian Heroes' and hold rallies in support of these criminals.

Pathetic Bam Bam … your jealousy is showing. Red in the face and steam coming out of your nose. Stomp your feet and shake your finger just like Tudjman.

Serbia has brought charges in court relating to the purported crimes at Ovcara Farm.

I say, just like the recent Hague decision, all those who have had charges brought against them for Ovcara should be found not guilty.

BRAVO Mr. Jeremic! IGNORING THE WAR CRIMES AGAINST SERBS IS A CRIME TOO!

Maybe they should wait for the debate few more days for Ramus Haradinaj to be released also so they can hold the debate for that too. No need to do one more debate after that.

Nothing good can come from verdicts where Universal Justice has not been served. With this here latest verdict, the Croats are doomed to glorify and celebrate evil and the Untruth--every year--'til judgement day.
Another sad day for Heaven, Croats and the rest of the world.

@ George...I saw your post on saturday and attempted too comment...I don't believe you are Serbian...your words are too general and filled with too much hatred... I believe you are an instigator and you Should Mind your own business...Stop trying too provoke ...the US is not the Enemy of The Serbians...other countries/Ethnic/religious groups use their surrogates in the US to speak on their behalf ...

Good job Jeremic. By April 2013, no one in the world will remember the appeals court verdict for Croatian Generals. You made a big blunder with ICJ,hope you enjoy another one.

Ned- if you don't know anything, don't comment.

accept the fact that three experienced senior judges came to the conclusion that the appeal should be upheld.
(Ned Taylor, 19 November 2012 12:08)
--
Interesting how three senior judges did a complete U-turn on the original ruling. So what we have is 3 senior judges finding them guilty and then in the appeals process, 2 senior judges agreeing with the original ruling but since 3 other judges, one being an American and the other a Turk, disagreed, they were released. So essentially, we have 5 senior judges finding them guilty and 3 not guilty.

Essentially, this demonstrates to me that this political NATO court is seriously flawed. Only a quick investigation into its foundations, where initial funding came from Soros institutions and not the UN, should being to open ones eyes.

It's really strange to read that 'the main victims of this war were Serbs'. This is similar to saying that the main victims of world war II were Germans. In a way, both may be true, but in a very strange way, really.
Also here we have two ladies with different names, talking about CroatiOns, instead of Croatians. I wonder.

Vuk Jeremić is a Serb nationalist, and I don't expect that he will be able to choose the right participants for this debate.
He has left Serbia promising he will be useful to the Serbian cause and asked for an additional budget paid by his relatively poor country, of USD 7 mln. This was turned down and seriously cut when the current government came to power. Back to the point, I don't believe this debate will be useful to anyone (just like most GA debates), but Mr. Jeremic will certainly find a way to claim it was a big success. Just like he claims his election to this high office is a proof that Serbia is a key factor in international politics.

Going back to his statement, I dispute his thought that 'the verdict caused indignation in big parts of the world'. This is simply not true. The guilt of the two generals has not been proven, that is a fact. They were responsible for recapturing teritories occupied by local Serbs with the help of the Yugoslav (Serbia proper, in fact), army. In this occupied entity, thousands of Croats were displaced or murdered first. So, it is not as simple as Mr. Jeremic thinks.

Thank you for publishing these thoughts.

None of this excuses any miscarriage of justice in cases involving crimes against Serbs, but remember, all legal systems are flawed.
(Nenad, 19 November 2012 13:50)
==================================

The court certainly isn't flawed when it comes to rounding up and punishing Serbs for all those crimes.
Tell me, who did they set free and declare innocent for those crimes?

Of course Carla del Ponte will say she's disappointed that justice has not been done. She was the prosecutor in this case and she spent several years on it, so it doesn't look good on her CV. She's not going to say: "Perhaps our case was not as good as we thought".

Jeff: I am fully cognisant about the UN and its workings and therefore focused my comments on the area that I felt qualified to do so. I am not afraid to admit when I am lacking in knowledge and have no intention of making a fool of myself by giving an opinion when I have insufficient information. Perhaps you might take a similar approach?

You know what makes me wonder about this guy Jeremic? Is the fact that he is a member of the Democratic Party? In the past when the DS was at the helm, I always thought that Jeremic's actions were only for public consumption, meaning, that he was a sellout just like his boss, Tadic, however, he had to put on a front. But now I'm starting to believe that this guy just might be for real. I'll even go as far as saying that he's more patriotic than Nikolic (let's forget about Dacic, we know what he's all about). Could Jeremic be the Serbian saviour? Could we all then celebrate the same Family Patron Day, "Slava." Imagine, "Sveti Vuk."

Joe A -

I understand what you're saying, and personally, I haven't liked all that I've seen coming out of the ICTY over the years. The Haradinaj, Oric, Delic, and Blaskic trials are a few that quickly come to mind. It also troubles me that Tudjman and Izetbegovic never were indicted before they died, but then again, Milosevic wasn't indicted until spring 1999, and Tudjman died just a short time after that (December 99). Izetbegovic lived to the mid-2000s, though, so I'm not sure what happened there...

Part of all this, I suppose, comes down to the trial itself. I know that may be difficult to believe, but in order to get a conviction, there needs to be sufficient evidence and a competent prosecutor to link that evidence to a suspect. I haven't reviewed these particular cases, so I'm not sure. I'm hoping another poster could weigh in as to quality of witness testimony, telephone intercepts, etc. I understand the impulse to immediately point to command responsibility, but was it conclusively established that Gotovina and Markac issued direct orders to commit crimes? Never mind the probabality that this happened...it has to have been proved beyond reasonable doubt.

@(Nenad, 19 November 2012 19:58)

The summary judgement in the Gotovina retrial is here: http://www.icty.org/x/cases/gotovina/acjug/en/121116_summary.pdf

The appeal argument was simple - the original trial was based on an accusation of indiscriminate shelling of the 4 towns during Operation Storm. This was the foundation for the charge of there having been a Joint Criminal Enterprise. The appeals court found there was no evidence of indiscriminate shelling, since the original judges had made up a standard for "lawful shelling" - a margin of error of 200 m beyond a legitimate military target. There was nothing in the evidence presented during the trial establishing this as a realistic measure. (In fact only a small number of shells fell outside this distance, and in any case, the damage done was "unexpectedly minor" according the the Special Envoy.) So - no indiscriminate shelling, thus no JCE, thus no guilty verdict.

If the ICTY hadn't been so concerned with establishing that "everybody was equally guilty" by going after the familiar names on every side but had instead contented itself with charging the people who actually carried out the crimes, then people in the region might feel that justice has been done. As it is - nobody's happy.

The court certainly isn't flawed when it comes to rounding up and punishing Serbs for all those crimes.
Tell me, who did they set free and declare innocent for those crimes?
(Peggy, 19 November 2012 23:12)

Serbia's former president, for example
(icj1, 20 November 2012 04:32)

Also Miroslav Radić was found innocent and cleared of all charges despite his involvement in the massacres of Croat civilians on that farm near Ovčara.

I could put a list together of about 40 Serbs and Bosnian Serbs who have had their Indictment withdrawn or been aquitted.

But apparently the ICTY is biased towards Serbs.

...the decision to free these men is really no surprise, nor will it be any surprise when the vatican proclaims them saints, some things never change

@(sad johnny, 19 November 2012 18:01) -

Don't be sad - this decision may be exactly what was needed to move the Croats to deal with the crimes committed during the entire war, not just Operation Storm. Their President said during the celebration of the Generals' return that it is time for the country to punish those (Croats) who committed crimes during their war for independence, and Gotovina is calling Serbs to return to their homeland. The devil is in the details, of course - tracking down those responsible for crimes committed nearly two decades ago is not going to be easy, for example, and what can returning Serbs expect to find in the way of housing and financial support - but there does seem to have been a change for the better.

One problem the “court” did not consider. By issuing blatantly political judgments they toss into questions even the justifiable prosecutions like that against Milosvisc. History is now left to ponder whether Milosevic and his ilk were truly guilty or victims of political persecution. This is an injury to justice that permeates far beyond the absolution of two generals and the predictable Nazi celebrations across all of Croatia that followed the ruling. It is a sad day for justice. But the verdict is expected from a court that is populated by law school flunkies who lack intellect and backbone to rule justly.

The court certainly isn't flawed when it comes to rounding up and punishing Serbs for all those crimes.
Tell me, who did they set free and declare innocent for those crimes?
(Peggy, 19 November 2012 23:12)

Serbia's former president, for example

So far in the Serbian press we read of how the court has lost all credibility, the world is in shock, it is a political court handing down purely political decisions. But you know what? We are hearing that from all the same people who have been writing that before these decisions were handed down. So basically the same people who condemned the court this week are the same ones that condemned the court last week. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then you go on to say that a verdict issued in accordance with international law by a Russia & China court is seriously flawed ?!
(icj1, 20 November 2012 04:22)
--
LOL! Where did you get a "Russia and China" court? Your memory is as selective as the "court" itself. See below as taken from the ICTY website itself. I do not see Russia or China mentioned anywhere. Why is a UN "court" taking private donations?

Check -> http://www.icty.org/sections/AbouttheICTY/SupportandDonations

I quote "The Tribunal gratefully acknowledges the foundations, institutions and governments who have provided voluntary contributions to assist the Tribunal.

Countries: Austria, Belgium, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Malta, Namibia, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, United States.

Non-Governmental Organisations and other Institutions:
Case Western Reserve University, Carnegie Foundation, Coalition for International Justice, MacArthur Foundation, National Bar Association of USA, Rockefeller Foundation, Starechter Public Contribution, Open Society Institute, Organisation for the Security and Cooperation in Europe (on behalf of the government of Canada), University of Amsterdam, Utrecht University."

A shame another comment of mine on the Croats as 'nazis' bs, and about how nobody, but really nobody should be proud about their WWII past in this region, was not published.

Responses to Julie and Peggy below: I am not 'fed' with propaganda, and I know the facts. When I say Serbs occupied the teritory, it doesn't mean that they didn't live there before. They were even a majority in some of the municipalities. But with the help of the YU army (read Serbs, as almost all other officers left), they established control over a huge chunk of Croatia and kicked most non Serbs out and killed a lot of them too. The first columns of refugees in this war were Croatian.
Serb Krajina leaders didn't want to negociate with Croatia any form of authonomy, they wanted to secede from Croatia. Well, that is why I say occupied.

The name of the Serbiian president is Milan Milutinovic, acquited in November 2, 2009.

The appeal court didn't agree with the first instance decision and its 'proof', so don't write that the court prooved anything. The final berdict, if you want, is the the proof that these two men are innocent. Yet they did spend seven years in detention / jail.

Peggy: The answer to your question about Tudjman is that he would have been indicted had he not had the good grace to die first. Don't forget that Milosevic was only indicted in 1999, the year that Tudjman died. As for Oric, he gave himself up to the Hague and faced justice and cannot be blamed for the appeal verdict. He certainly didn't hide away for years on end or disguise himself as a witch doctor. Izetbegovic was largely clueless throughout the conflict and the idea that he could have constructed a 'joint criminal enterprise' or that he had any control over what was going on is laughable. From what I've heard and read he couldn't even control his bladder.....

Oh one more thing.

Comparing General Mladic with General Gotovina is a joke. This is what Serbian propaganda does to you.

General Gotovina was a soldier executing orders from his president. He didn't order anyone killed.

General Mladic is responsible for the deaths of 8000 people in Srebrenica, among other things. He didn't really report to Karadzic (both can be certified lunatics) but was more or less doing his own things. Although the two were in agreement that all 'Turks', how they called them, should be kicked out or eliminated.

There is absolutely no way these two war criminals will ever get acquitted by any court. You have to stop the propaganda that all sides are equally guilty. I know, you won't, but perhaps some day you will come to your senses, when media in Serbia start treating this subject in an objective manner.

Zoran: "Why is a UN "court" taking private donations?"

For funding.

"Let those who agreed to EULEX investigating the organ trafficking in Kosovo think hard. The gentlemen will conclude that we removed our own organs."

Speaking of removing organs, who removed the brains of the ppl that voted for this 2 bit nationalist - das ist die frage...

Dear, calm down, take a deep breath, collect your thoughts for a moment and perhaps you might start to make coherent statements...
(icj1, 20 November 2012 04:22)
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The statement is clear my friend. Five judges of this so-called court stand by a guilty conviction whereas three of them do not, one being an American and the other a Turk. It was in response to Ned's point of giving more weight to the three judges.

Now going back to the list below, you can see the "Open Society Foundations" listed, which if you did some research you would know they provided funds to run this "court" in the whole first year. Isn't that a bit strange for a "Russian and Chinese" court? Look who controls the Open Society Foundations. Check -> http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/about

Good old George Soros funded this court and in fact was key to establishing it. Also, there is a permanent US office based at the ICTY that overseas everything going on. With these latest acquittals, this so-called court has sunk deep into the sewage pond.

You "conveniently" omitted the part where these donations from these approximately 45 different states and organizations combined equals less than 1% of the operating budget for the tribunal. I don't think you could really build your case for buying influence based on the WHOLE facts.
(pss, 20 November 2012 11:41)
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Sorry my friend, but 100% of the courts establishment and initial operating costs were via donations from these organisations. The UN did not have the funds at the time and Russia was refusing to contribute. The dubious foundations of this so-called court exposes exactly its intentions. Check -> http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2009/12/24/the-soros-connection-leading-the-goldstone-lobby

I quote "Soros was one of the two mega-funders that together gave some $1 million to pay for the precursor to the ICTY. Thanks to Neier, a Soros grant then funded the first year of ICTY operations (see here under the “Neier” entry, at p. xviii), with specific funding to the work of Goldstone’s Office of The Prosecutor."

Izetbegovic was largely clueless throughout the conflict and the idea that he could have constructed a 'joint criminal enterprise'...
(Ned Taylor, 20 November 2012 11:14)
--
My God, you make Izetbegovic sound stupid. Stupid enough that his joint criminal enterprise with Clinton, where they needed 5000 Muslims massacred to justify NATO intervention, was freely spoken by him. Watch at 12:30 Youtube time -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ac24F0opI

2012-2013: $ 250,814,000
2010-2011: $ 286,012,600
(pss, 20 November 2012 20:39)
--
LOL! Soros funded the first whole year. You purposely avoided posting that. The beginnings of this so-called court are dubious. It is what set the political nature of it. Nothing has changed except the funding structure as it become very expensive to maintain the lies. It cost something like $100 million per Serbian conviction. Yep, as mentioned, it is a very expensive political kangaroo court, which will soon be completely discredited.

Can people just read the opinions of the two dissenting judges who completely disagree with the verdict? If you read their opinions on the ruling you will really understand how ridiculous the ruling was
(trizo, 20 November 2012 03:12)

Well, but they were two, when the majority was three. The majority's opinion counts. If you read the opinion of the three you will really understand how ridiculous the opinion of the two was. We can continue these games all week if you want and not agree. That's why there is a court there to settle the dispute :)

(Nenad, 19 November 2012 19:58)
I get your point. I am not very familiar with the case also but I heard there were transcripts. And Tudjman inflamatory speeches are well known. But I cannot believe the first trail got it all wrong. Ultimately, chain of command is at least the one thing that should have gotten them convicted. For sure they knew and there is little proof that they prevented it from happening or corrected it later.
The ICTY convention that was supposed to be held in Belgrade was cancalled. The theme of this 'traveling' convention (they went to Zagreb and Sarajevo before) was 'the legacy of the ICTY'. Well, that legacy is a joke. There was no balanced prosecution and sentencing and hardly any contribution to reconcilliation, although apparently all purpotrators in the cells in Scheveningen got along fine. Perhaps Jeremic's UNGA debate will decide how the UN members see the legacy of this circus.

"The Hague Tribunal's decision to acquit former Croatian generals has dealt a blow to the UN, according to UN General Assembly President Vuk Jeremić"

Obviously Vuk still thinks that he is in Serbia where the government decides what courts should decide and thus if the courts don't decide as the government wishes, than it is a blow to the state! Fortunately, in this case, the only blow that was dealt was the blow to Vuk - hopefully he feels better today. UN did not complain about any blow and is doing just fine.

Going back to his statement, I dispute his thought that 'the verdict caused indignation in big parts of the world'. This is simply not true. The guilt of the two generals has not been proven,
===================================
But it had been proven and they got lengthy sentences. The fact that NATO court didn't like that meant that it had to be done over with predictable outcome.

Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:27)
You "conveniently" omitted the part where these donations from these approximately 45 different states and organizations combined equals less than 1% of the operating budget for the tribunal. I don't think you could really build your case for buying influence based on the WHOLE facts.

@Ned Taylor, I know that Oric gave himself up to 'face justice' except that he always knew he was not going to be convicted.
This is what I was saying.
Do you have a problem with understanding what people say?
If Tudjman was sent to Hague do you honestly believe that he was ever going to get convicted?
As far as Izetbegovic is concerned, he was guilty. He had plenty of control.
Beats me why you minimize the others' crimes so much.
You certainly missed my whole point so here it is again.
None of the others had anything to fear from Hague. I wonder why.

Milo Djukanovic...remember what they did when they ruled CG as Milosevic proxies in the early 1990s? Never indicted!
(Nenad, 20 November 2012 15:09)
================================
Again, apples with oranges. Milo is not a Serb (well not by his own admission). He is Montenegrin and is pushing others to distance themselves.
I was talking about the highest offices primarily. Again, you cite Oric as something that I should not mention. He went free and he is comparable to Mladic simply because he tried to exterminate the Serbs from Srebrenica and Mladic had to step in and stop him. The two were in the same place, the same time killing. Difference is that Mladic let the women and children go unlike Oric who was killing all. Now that is genocide mate, not what Mladic did.
Oric admitted it freely and still roams free. So don't tell me that Oric is not guilty, because that is precisely what you keep saying by dismissing him. He ADMITTED IT by bragging about it. Do you get it?

it is a very expensive political kangaroo court, which will soon be completely discredited.
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 21:43)
Interesting comment. Who is it that is going to discredit the ICTY? Serbian opinion? You have tried to discredit the court since I have been reading your comments. The only real way to discredit a court is to have another court to review some if not all of the cases, that is not going to happen. Those on the losing side of any court will always claim it is corrupt, biased, inept, etc etc. So far we have seen nothing different here. Those closely associated with the guilty parties are the ones making these claims here.

So who is that? Name please.
(Peggy, 20 November 2012 10:19)

Sorry, I thought you were a true Serb and would know the former Serb presidents. It was Milan Milutinović, Serbia's president from 1997 to 2002.

Good old George Soros funded this court and in fact was key to establishing it. Also, there is a permanent US office based at the ICTY that overseas everything going on. With these latest acquittals, this so-called court has sunk deep into the sewage pond.
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:40)

Very interesting facts. Make sure to let know those who enable the very existence of the court, i.e. Russia, China & co. Apparently they are not aware :).
----------

LOL! Where did you get a "Russia and China" court? Your memory is as selective as the "court" itself. See below as taken from the ICTY website itself. I do not see Russia or China mentioned anywhere. Why is a UN "court" taking private donations?
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:27)

Not sure, dear, that’s what Vuk’s UN says :) You may wish to ask them why they say that Russia and China voted to set up the court and have voted and continue to vote for almost 20 years those judges, including the ones who acquitted Gotovina. Hopefully Vuk’s UN will hear you and correct their records :)

However, don't get depressed, and continue to see the bright side on the fact that Russia and China continue to support Serbia with statetements and words; it's just when it comes to actions that they don't do much, or actually do the opposite of what Serbia wants.

Peggy,

One more thing: I did a quick search on Stjepan Kljuic and came across this interview with Stjepan Mesic from 1997. Pretty interesting remarks about the 90s wars in general. Mesic's comments echo much of what I've encountered elsewhere in my research. Go to

http://www.ex-yupress.com/tjednik/tjednik2.html

Peggy,

One of the so-called Vukovar Three (Radic, I believe) was acquitted, as was Milan Milutinovic. And, as someone else pointed out earlier, Veselin Sljivancanin's final sentence caused outrage amongst Croats. Also, other JNA officers (Stugar, Jokic) got relatively light sentences, comparable to the time served in detention by Gotovina and Markac (and by the way, I'm not suggesting that Gotovina and Markac shouldn't have spent more time behind bars than they did).

Serbs with longer sentences (Krstic, Krajisnik, Galic, Martic, etc) were linked to very grave crimes and held considerable military and/or political responsibility. In some of those cases, there were copious amounts of evidence, including telephone intercepts and insider testimony (Milan Babic, for instance).

So I think a lot of the judgements meted out to Serbs have probably been fair. What concerns me is that similar judgements against members of the other factions are almost nowhere to be found, and that doesn't quite measure up to the reality on the ground. Maybe a lot of the guys in custody were, in fact, innocent, but that would mean that the guilty ones are still at large. So either way, the system is flawed, but that's reality. As I always say, the best way to avoid a flawed legal system is to refrain from breaking the law. I would argue that the Serb political and military leadership weren't careful about that.

@ Amer

Hvala, Gospodine!

In response to a few fellows...
The spin continues, ...Serbs were "occupying" Croatian land. You sir need to separate fact from the propaganda that you are fed. Serbs lived in the krajina region for centuries. Check the tombstones. In fact, the evidence against gotovina and markac was as clear as day. Continual denial of your fascist history and fascist present is as nationalistic as you can get. The evidence is readily available:

YouTube tudjman's speech where he declared that he would drive out the Serbs

prosecutor Carla del ponte said justice had not been served when the generals were acquitted

both generals met with american generals who bombed the jna to ensure the operation was carried out smoothly

How one can condone ethnic cleansing is incomprehensible. How a court can be so corrupt isn't much of a surprise though.

Can people just read the opinions of the two dissenting judges who completely disagree with the verdict? If you read their opinions on the ruling you will really understand how ridiculous the ruling was and how it did not consider the crucially important evidence that proved the attack on Serbs was unlawful, but dismissed it. It's just like Uncle Sam does with the US Military. There is no real justice in the world anymore, just selective justice.

Judgement ICTY http://www.icty.org/x/cases/gotovina/acjug/en/121116_judgement.pdf

Interesting how three senior judges did a complete U-turn on the original ruling. So what we have is 3 senior judges finding them guilty and then in the appeals process, 2 senior judges agreeing with the original ruling but since 3 other judges, one being an American and the other a Turk, disagreed, they were released. So essentially, we have 5 senior judges finding them guilty and 3 not guilty.

Essentially, this demonstrates to me that this political NATO court is seriously flawed. Only a quick investigation into its foundations, where initial funding came from Soros institutions and not the UN, should being to open ones eyes.
(Zoran, 19 November 2012 19:08)

Sorry, did not get the logical nexus between the first and second paragraph. Based on your first paragraph the verdict was reached in accordance with the ICTY Statute approved by Russia, China & co. Then you go on to say that a verdict issued in accordance with international law by a Russia & China court is seriously flawed ?!

Dear, calm down, take a deep breath, collect your thoughts for a moment and perhaps you might start to make coherent statements...

@Nenad, if you are going to make comparisons then please compare apples with apples.
Gotovona - Mladic
Who do we have to compare against with Karadzic?
Who do we have to compare with Plavsic?
How about Milosevic?
So what happened to Tudjman, Izetbegovic and then we have Oric and Ceku.
So if you want comparisons there are none.

@Nenad, if you are going to make comparisons then please compare apples with apples.
Gotovona - Mladic
Who do we have to compare against with Karadzic?
Who do we have to compare with Plavsic?
How about Milosevic?
So what happened to Tudjman, Izetbegovic and then we have Oric and Ceku.
So if you want comparisons there are none.
(Peggy, 20 November 2012 10:25)

I told you, I don't know enough about Gotovina's case to comment on its fairness. Mladic's case is still underway.
Mate Boban was probably the Bosnian Croat who would best compare to Karadzic, and he died before he could be brought to the ICTY. Plavsic plead guilty, but a comparable figure would be Stjepan Kljuic -- and that's strictly in terms of rank. I can't recall any international outrage over his wartime actions, but I'd need to check. Tudjman would compare to Milosevic, and I posted yesterday (scroll way down) that he (Tudjman) died before he was indicted. I also gave some brief thoughts on Oric and others.

I repeat, there are no doubt war criminals from the other sides walking free today, and that is a shame. But yesterday ( again, scroll way down), I provided you with some fairly high-profile examples of Serbs acquitted by the ICTY (Radic, Milutinovic), so it's not as though every Serb ever indicted has been locked away for life. And think of guys like Momir Bulatovic and Milo Djukanovic...remember what they did when they ruled CG as Milosevic proxies in the early 1990s? Never indicted!

(Zoran, 20 November 2012 12:20)
Go back and read the first link you cited (the official one) as far as the 2nd one on the 1 million dollar contribution to the "precursor" to the ICTY, just what do you think that would have done. That may have paid for the paper and pencil supply, maybe.

http://www.icty.org/sections/AbouttheICTY/SupportandDonations

"Such voluntary contributions make up only a small fraction – less than one per cent - of the Tribunal’s operating budget but are used for vital projects such as exhumation activities and supporting the Tribunal’s groundbreaking Outreach Programme. Voluntary contributions can only be accepted from those states and bodies that comply with the United Nations policy on donations."


REGULAR BUDGET:

2012-2013: $ 250,814,000
2010-2011: $ 286,012,600

Peggy, I think you have confused me with someone else. Here is what I said about Oric yesterday:

...personally, I haven't liked all that I've seen coming out of the ICTY over the years. The Haradinaj, Oric, Delic, and Blaskic trials are a few that quickly come to mind. It also troubles me that Tudjman and Izetbegovic never were indicted before they died, but then again, Milosevic wasn't indicted until spring 1999, and Tudjman died just a short time after that...

Where have I said that Oric was innocent?

As for Milo Djukanovic, look up his history. He was PM of Montenegro when war broke out in 1991, and strongly identified himself as a Serb. Montenegro was a puppet state for Milosevic back then; there was effectively no difference between the two peoples. After all, Milosevic, Karadzic, Stanisic, Arkan and others were Montenegrin either by birth or ancestry.

As for your comparison of Mladic to Oric, you conveniently omit the history of brutal atrocities committed by the VRS all along the River Drina beginning in spring 1992 -- as if Muslim crimes around Srebrenica were the very first to occur in eastern BiH.

Serbia's former president, for example
(icj1, 20 November 2012 04:32)
==========================

So who is that? Name please.

The statement is clear my friend. Five judges of this so-called court stand by a guilty conviction whereas three of them do not, one being an American and the other a Turk. It was in response to Ned's point of giving more weight to the three judges.
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:40)

It was not Ned’s point that gives a weight to anything. It is the statute of the court approved by Russia, China & co which gives the three judges of the appellate chamber the ruling majority. So everything is in accordance with the international law – what’s flawed here ?!
----------

Now going back to the list below, you can see the "Open Society Foundations" listed, which if you did some research you would know they provided funds to run this "court" in the whole first year. Isn't that a bit strange for a "Russian and Chinese" court? Look who controls the Open Society Foundations. Check -> [link]
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:40)

Sure, but if there were not a court created by Russia, China & co with all judges elected by Russia, China & co for almost 20 years (the most recent ones in 2012), there would be nothing for Soros or the devil to fund. So, if anybody has anything to complain feel free to let Russia, China & co know.

Well done Peggy, you're right with all of your comments.

At the end of the day, what was once a beautiful place is now unrecognizable. None of us should think that the powers that be give a crap about us, I don't care what side you're on. Use your own brains people. What we're told is much different than reality.

Vuk Jeremic - Typical comment from a Serb. 2 respected men have been cleared by not local courts but by the International court and you Vuk who is supposed to be neutral working for the U.N continue to spew your hate only because they are Croat. Did you cause such a farce when convicted war criminal Veselin Šljivančanin originally recieved only 5 years for the slaughter of 300 unarmed civilians / wounded solidiers at Ovcari Farm. Not a word from you or your beloved Serbian government about injustice. How can Serbia ever be excepted as a future European partner when it behaves in such a manner.

I am sure that like many Serbs Mr Jeremic is distressed at the verdict last week in the Hague. However, unlike those other Serbs he is the President of the UNGA and as such should be aware that he should distinguish very carefully between the occasions on which he is expressing a personal view and those when he is speaking in his official capacity and therefore on behalf of others. There is no reason why there should not be a debate about the role of all war crimes tribunals that have been set up under the auspices of the UN and now is as good a time as any to see what can be learned for the future. The debate should not simply be about a decision that has angered the President of the body but about the whole process of justice and reconcilliation. Vuk should bear in mind that although he and others did not agree with the verdict concerning Operation Storm, many people are happy with the overall efforts of the ICTY and accept the fact that three experienced senior judges came to the conclusion that the appeal should be upheld. As stated previously I am in no position to comment on the verdict as I have never had the opportunity to view the facts in an unbiased format.

This clown embarrassed UN! " Organ trade ". blablabla do you have evidence? Hell no! Ban Ki Moon get rid of this clown ASAP, even though you're a joke as well.

Oh yes because a UNGA debate is really going to matter! :-)

RESPECT for the President of the United Nations General Assembly Mr Vuk Jeremic, wish you all the best with the public debate.
P.S. Regards for Croats and Albanians, continue to spread hatred, it's always expected from your side.

Nenad- by far the largest victims of the latest war were Serbs. You are infected by a virus that doesn't understand truth.

Vuk is basically doing what any Serb serving as UNGA President would, and that includes subjective and emotional comments on social media, the consequences of which are sure to be minor given the brief media cycle.

Ned Taylor makes a good point about the broader world perspective -- while Serbs and their sympathizes are outraged, Serbian enemies are delighted -- and I would just add that many more in the world really couldn't care less.

That the UN is a flawed organization should come as no surprise to anyone -- we're living in an unjust world. To put things in perspective, what was done to prevent the genocides in Rwanda and Darfur in the past 20 years? What is being done to stop the horrors still taking place in countries such as DR Congo, Syria and Burma?

As for the Balkans, we must remember that many, perhaps most, observing the 90s wars from abroad (not to mention the many viewing the conflicts from inside) considered Serbs to be the primary aggressors. Yes, around a quarter of a million ethnic Serbs were evicted from Croatia in spring and summer 1995, but what of the Serbian atrocities committed in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo? The brutal shelling of Vukovar, Dubrovnik, Sarajevo; the assault on Muslims in eastern BiH in spring 1992; the trucks filled with Albanian corpses showing up in Serbia proper; and, of course, Srebrenica.

None of this excuses any miscarriage of justice in cases involving crimes against Serbs, but remember, all legal systems are flawed.

The Croation acquittals are a huge blow to the rule of law, however, a big win for political power. It is a bloody disgusting situation and noone can be proud of this. Those responsible for fiddling should hang their heads in shame.

(Nenad, 19 November 2012 13:50)
That is the point Nenad: Serbs were/are prosecuted/convicted for the crimes that you mentioned. But disproportionally more Serbs receive disproportionally higher sentences while purpotrators of crimes against Serbs are not or not to the fullest extend prosecuted. The court now makes it sound like the expulsion of 200,000 people it not such a big deal.

US/CIA Planned and executed, they call it Justified Ethnic Cleansing (LOL)only when the USA does it...HYPOCRITES! The true ENEMY of SERBS is the USA. Their time will come,than the world will celebrate

Jeremic doesn't need to resign given his comments. Murderers were set free. How would YOU react? The fact that the Croation people have welcomed Gotovina and Markac with open arms truly shows that the Croation people believe the propaganda that has been fed to them over the last few decades. The Croation people are blind to the fact that they played an equal role in the tragic events that occurred in Croatia and Bosnia. To justify and celebrate ethnic cleansing is a travesty. Fascist Croatia is alive and well, just as is in WW2 when fascist Croation Ustase murdered Serbs, we all know about Jasenovac. Croats will never apologize for their crimes but we all know the truth. Good luck to those people.

Oh no :)

No matter how strong and subjective felt, Jeremic’s decision to schedule an international public debate for discussion about the work of the Hague Tribunal is one of the key thinks for understanding and reconsideration of justice. Expanding this issues to wider communities (such as academic, civil associations, etc.), the debate has the potential to consider whether this institution is still necessary, as well as to note when it came to its, evident collapse.

As someone who was not familiar to Vuk Jeremic’s politics before he came to the position UN General Assembly President, I understand completely the importance of this debate. Serbia has to learn to be persuasive in presenting facts and to clearly focus on strong arguments, even if decisions are painful. Dialogue method should be replaced by Methods of qualitative communication. Try to avoid provocations, stay calm and work claver. One day justice will come to light. Wish you all the best.

Good initiative. The ICTY is dominated by Americans and Anglos from the common wealth who were provided for "free" by their respective countries. I know that because I know people working there from non Anglo-American countries who were highly frustrated by that fact. Bring the discussion to the level of the UNGA to discuss the impartiality of the tribunal.

Pathetic Bam Bam … your jealousy is showing. Red in the face and steam coming out of your nose. Stomp your feet and shake your finger just like Tudjman.

Serbia has brought charges in court relating to the purported crimes at Ovcara Farm.

I say, just like the recent Hague decision, all those who have had charges brought against them for Ovcara should be found not guilty.

Nothing good can come from verdicts where Universal Justice has not been served. With this here latest verdict, the Croats are doomed to glorify and celebrate evil and the Untruth--every year--'til judgement day.
Another sad day for Heaven, Croats and the rest of the world.

You know what makes me wonder about this guy Jeremic? Is the fact that he is a member of the Democratic Party? In the past when the DS was at the helm, I always thought that Jeremic's actions were only for public consumption, meaning, that he was a sellout just like his boss, Tadic, however, he had to put on a front. But now I'm starting to believe that this guy just might be for real. I'll even go as far as saying that he's more patriotic than Nikolic (let's forget about Dacic, we know what he's all about). Could Jeremic be the Serbian saviour? Could we all then celebrate the same Family Patron Day, "Slava." Imagine, "Sveti Vuk."

Ned- if you don't know anything, don't comment.

"The fact that the Croation people have welcomed Gotovina and Markac with open arms truly shows that the Croation people believe the propaganda that has been fed to them over the last few decades."
(Julie, 19 November 2012 16:31)

Which doesn't make them different from the (not so few) Serbs who believed the propaganda and still nowadays see Mladic and Karadzic as 'Serbian Heroes' and hold rallies in support of these criminals.

BRAVO Mr. Jeremic! IGNORING THE WAR CRIMES AGAINST SERBS IS A CRIME TOO!

Good job Jeremic. By April 2013, no one in the world will remember the appeals court verdict for Croatian Generals. You made a big blunder with ICJ,hope you enjoy another one.

Ok lets repeat what Jeremic is saying. The UN appointed court has was wrong and this decision cast a cloud on the UN's ability in such matters. Then he says let those who chose to let EULEX investigate the organ trade issue instead of the UN take note.
Maybe Jeremic needs to step back and think before speaking.

Maybe they should wait for the debate few more days for Ramus Haradinaj to be released also so they can hold the debate for that too. No need to do one more debate after that.

Nenad- by far the largest victims of the latest war were Serbs. You are infected by a virus that doesn't understand truth.
(Wally, 19 November 2012 15:44)

And what war would that be?

Because it can't be the Kosovo War as that statment would be inccorect.

accept the fact that three experienced senior judges came to the conclusion that the appeal should be upheld.
(Ned Taylor, 19 November 2012 12:08)
--
Interesting how three senior judges did a complete U-turn on the original ruling. So what we have is 3 senior judges finding them guilty and then in the appeals process, 2 senior judges agreeing with the original ruling but since 3 other judges, one being an American and the other a Turk, disagreed, they were released. So essentially, we have 5 senior judges finding them guilty and 3 not guilty.

Essentially, this demonstrates to me that this political NATO court is seriously flawed. Only a quick investigation into its foundations, where initial funding came from Soros institutions and not the UN, should being to open ones eyes.

None of this excuses any miscarriage of justice in cases involving crimes against Serbs, but remember, all legal systems are flawed.
(Nenad, 19 November 2012 13:50)
==================================

The court certainly isn't flawed when it comes to rounding up and punishing Serbs for all those crimes.
Tell me, who did they set free and declare innocent for those crimes?

"Let those who agreed to EULEX investigating the organ trafficking in Kosovo think hard. The gentlemen will conclude that we removed our own organs."

Speaking of removing organs, who removed the brains of the ppl that voted for this 2 bit nationalist - das ist die frage...

@ George...I saw your post on saturday and attempted too comment...I don't believe you are Serbian...your words are too general and filled with too much hatred... I believe you are an instigator and you Should Mind your own business...Stop trying too provoke ...the US is not the Enemy of The Serbians...other countries/Ethnic/religious groups use their surrogates in the US to speak on their behalf ...

@(sad johnny, 19 November 2012 18:01) -

Don't be sad - this decision may be exactly what was needed to move the Croats to deal with the crimes committed during the entire war, not just Operation Storm. Their President said during the celebration of the Generals' return that it is time for the country to punish those (Croats) who committed crimes during their war for independence, and Gotovina is calling Serbs to return to their homeland. The devil is in the details, of course - tracking down those responsible for crimes committed nearly two decades ago is not going to be easy, for example, and what can returning Serbs expect to find in the way of housing and financial support - but there does seem to have been a change for the better.

Joe A -

I understand what you're saying, and personally, I haven't liked all that I've seen coming out of the ICTY over the years. The Haradinaj, Oric, Delic, and Blaskic trials are a few that quickly come to mind. It also troubles me that Tudjman and Izetbegovic never were indicted before they died, but then again, Milosevic wasn't indicted until spring 1999, and Tudjman died just a short time after that (December 99). Izetbegovic lived to the mid-2000s, though, so I'm not sure what happened there...

Part of all this, I suppose, comes down to the trial itself. I know that may be difficult to believe, but in order to get a conviction, there needs to be sufficient evidence and a competent prosecutor to link that evidence to a suspect. I haven't reviewed these particular cases, so I'm not sure. I'm hoping another poster could weigh in as to quality of witness testimony, telephone intercepts, etc. I understand the impulse to immediately point to command responsibility, but was it conclusively established that Gotovina and Markac issued direct orders to commit crimes? Never mind the probabality that this happened...it has to have been proved beyond reasonable doubt.

One problem the “court” did not consider. By issuing blatantly political judgments they toss into questions even the justifiable prosecutions like that against Milosvisc. History is now left to ponder whether Milosevic and his ilk were truly guilty or victims of political persecution. This is an injury to justice that permeates far beyond the absolution of two generals and the predictable Nazi celebrations across all of Croatia that followed the ruling. It is a sad day for justice. But the verdict is expected from a court that is populated by law school flunkies who lack intellect and backbone to rule justly.

It's really strange to read that 'the main victims of this war were Serbs'. This is similar to saying that the main victims of world war II were Germans. In a way, both may be true, but in a very strange way, really.
Also here we have two ladies with different names, talking about CroatiOns, instead of Croatians. I wonder.

Vuk Jeremić is a Serb nationalist, and I don't expect that he will be able to choose the right participants for this debate.
He has left Serbia promising he will be useful to the Serbian cause and asked for an additional budget paid by his relatively poor country, of USD 7 mln. This was turned down and seriously cut when the current government came to power. Back to the point, I don't believe this debate will be useful to anyone (just like most GA debates), but Mr. Jeremic will certainly find a way to claim it was a big success. Just like he claims his election to this high office is a proof that Serbia is a key factor in international politics.

Going back to his statement, I dispute his thought that 'the verdict caused indignation in big parts of the world'. This is simply not true. The guilt of the two generals has not been proven, that is a fact. They were responsible for recapturing teritories occupied by local Serbs with the help of the Yugoslav (Serbia proper, in fact), army. In this occupied entity, thousands of Croats were displaced or murdered first. So, it is not as simple as Mr. Jeremic thinks.

Thank you for publishing these thoughts.

...the decision to free these men is really no surprise, nor will it be any surprise when the vatican proclaims them saints, some things never change

@Ned Taylor, I know that Oric gave himself up to 'face justice' except that he always knew he was not going to be convicted.
This is what I was saying.
Do you have a problem with understanding what people say?
If Tudjman was sent to Hague do you honestly believe that he was ever going to get convicted?
As far as Izetbegovic is concerned, he was guilty. He had plenty of control.
Beats me why you minimize the others' crimes so much.
You certainly missed my whole point so here it is again.
None of the others had anything to fear from Hague. I wonder why.

Peggy,

One of the so-called Vukovar Three (Radic, I believe) was acquitted, as was Milan Milutinovic. And, as someone else pointed out earlier, Veselin Sljivancanin's final sentence caused outrage amongst Croats. Also, other JNA officers (Stugar, Jokic) got relatively light sentences, comparable to the time served in detention by Gotovina and Markac (and by the way, I'm not suggesting that Gotovina and Markac shouldn't have spent more time behind bars than they did).

Serbs with longer sentences (Krstic, Krajisnik, Galic, Martic, etc) were linked to very grave crimes and held considerable military and/or political responsibility. In some of those cases, there were copious amounts of evidence, including telephone intercepts and insider testimony (Milan Babic, for instance).

So I think a lot of the judgements meted out to Serbs have probably been fair. What concerns me is that similar judgements against members of the other factions are almost nowhere to be found, and that doesn't quite measure up to the reality on the ground. Maybe a lot of the guys in custody were, in fact, innocent, but that would mean that the guilty ones are still at large. So either way, the system is flawed, but that's reality. As I always say, the best way to avoid a flawed legal system is to refrain from breaking the law. I would argue that the Serb political and military leadership weren't careful about that.

Dear, calm down, take a deep breath, collect your thoughts for a moment and perhaps you might start to make coherent statements...
(icj1, 20 November 2012 04:22)
--
The statement is clear my friend. Five judges of this so-called court stand by a guilty conviction whereas three of them do not, one being an American and the other a Turk. It was in response to Ned's point of giving more weight to the three judges.

Now going back to the list below, you can see the "Open Society Foundations" listed, which if you did some research you would know they provided funds to run this "court" in the whole first year. Isn't that a bit strange for a "Russian and Chinese" court? Look who controls the Open Society Foundations. Check -> http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/about

Good old George Soros funded this court and in fact was key to establishing it. Also, there is a permanent US office based at the ICTY that overseas everything going on. With these latest acquittals, this so-called court has sunk deep into the sewage pond.

A shame another comment of mine on the Croats as 'nazis' bs, and about how nobody, but really nobody should be proud about their WWII past in this region, was not published.

Responses to Julie and Peggy below: I am not 'fed' with propaganda, and I know the facts. When I say Serbs occupied the teritory, it doesn't mean that they didn't live there before. They were even a majority in some of the municipalities. But with the help of the YU army (read Serbs, as almost all other officers left), they established control over a huge chunk of Croatia and kicked most non Serbs out and killed a lot of them too. The first columns of refugees in this war were Croatian.
Serb Krajina leaders didn't want to negociate with Croatia any form of authonomy, they wanted to secede from Croatia. Well, that is why I say occupied.

The name of the Serbiian president is Milan Milutinovic, acquited in November 2, 2009.

The appeal court didn't agree with the first instance decision and its 'proof', so don't write that the court prooved anything. The final berdict, if you want, is the the proof that these two men are innocent. Yet they did spend seven years in detention / jail.

Oh one more thing.

Comparing General Mladic with General Gotovina is a joke. This is what Serbian propaganda does to you.

General Gotovina was a soldier executing orders from his president. He didn't order anyone killed.

General Mladic is responsible for the deaths of 8000 people in Srebrenica, among other things. He didn't really report to Karadzic (both can be certified lunatics) but was more or less doing his own things. Although the two were in agreement that all 'Turks', how they called them, should be kicked out or eliminated.

There is absolutely no way these two war criminals will ever get acquitted by any court. You have to stop the propaganda that all sides are equally guilty. I know, you won't, but perhaps some day you will come to your senses, when media in Serbia start treating this subject in an objective manner.

Zoran: "Why is a UN "court" taking private donations?"

For funding.

Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:27)
You "conveniently" omitted the part where these donations from these approximately 45 different states and organizations combined equals less than 1% of the operating budget for the tribunal. I don't think you could really build your case for buying influence based on the WHOLE facts.

Izetbegovic was largely clueless throughout the conflict and the idea that he could have constructed a 'joint criminal enterprise'...
(Ned Taylor, 20 November 2012 11:14)
--
My God, you make Izetbegovic sound stupid. Stupid enough that his joint criminal enterprise with Clinton, where they needed 5000 Muslims massacred to justify NATO intervention, was freely spoken by him. Watch at 12:30 Youtube time -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ac24F0opI

@(Nenad, 19 November 2012 19:58)

The summary judgement in the Gotovina retrial is here: http://www.icty.org/x/cases/gotovina/acjug/en/121116_summary.pdf

The appeal argument was simple - the original trial was based on an accusation of indiscriminate shelling of the 4 towns during Operation Storm. This was the foundation for the charge of there having been a Joint Criminal Enterprise. The appeals court found there was no evidence of indiscriminate shelling, since the original judges had made up a standard for "lawful shelling" - a margin of error of 200 m beyond a legitimate military target. There was nothing in the evidence presented during the trial establishing this as a realistic measure. (In fact only a small number of shells fell outside this distance, and in any case, the damage done was "unexpectedly minor" according the the Special Envoy.) So - no indiscriminate shelling, thus no JCE, thus no guilty verdict.

If the ICTY hadn't been so concerned with establishing that "everybody was equally guilty" by going after the familiar names on every side but had instead contented itself with charging the people who actually carried out the crimes, then people in the region might feel that justice has been done. As it is - nobody's happy.

@ Amer

Hvala, Gospodine!

In response to a few fellows...
The spin continues, ...Serbs were "occupying" Croatian land. You sir need to separate fact from the propaganda that you are fed. Serbs lived in the krajina region for centuries. Check the tombstones. In fact, the evidence against gotovina and markac was as clear as day. Continual denial of your fascist history and fascist present is as nationalistic as you can get. The evidence is readily available:

YouTube tudjman's speech where he declared that he would drive out the Serbs

prosecutor Carla del ponte said justice had not been served when the generals were acquitted

both generals met with american generals who bombed the jna to ensure the operation was carried out smoothly

How one can condone ethnic cleansing is incomprehensible. How a court can be so corrupt isn't much of a surprise though.

Can people just read the opinions of the two dissenting judges who completely disagree with the verdict? If you read their opinions on the ruling you will really understand how ridiculous the ruling was and how it did not consider the crucially important evidence that proved the attack on Serbs was unlawful, but dismissed it. It's just like Uncle Sam does with the US Military. There is no real justice in the world anymore, just selective justice.

Judgement ICTY http://www.icty.org/x/cases/gotovina/acjug/en/121116_judgement.pdf

"The Hague Tribunal's decision to acquit former Croatian generals has dealt a blow to the UN, according to UN General Assembly President Vuk Jeremić"

Obviously Vuk still thinks that he is in Serbia where the government decides what courts should decide and thus if the courts don't decide as the government wishes, than it is a blow to the state! Fortunately, in this case, the only blow that was dealt was the blow to Vuk - hopefully he feels better today. UN did not complain about any blow and is doing just fine.

Interesting how three senior judges did a complete U-turn on the original ruling. So what we have is 3 senior judges finding them guilty and then in the appeals process, 2 senior judges agreeing with the original ruling but since 3 other judges, one being an American and the other a Turk, disagreed, they were released. So essentially, we have 5 senior judges finding them guilty and 3 not guilty.

Essentially, this demonstrates to me that this political NATO court is seriously flawed. Only a quick investigation into its foundations, where initial funding came from Soros institutions and not the UN, should being to open ones eyes.
(Zoran, 19 November 2012 19:08)

Sorry, did not get the logical nexus between the first and second paragraph. Based on your first paragraph the verdict was reached in accordance with the ICTY Statute approved by Russia, China & co. Then you go on to say that a verdict issued in accordance with international law by a Russia & China court is seriously flawed ?!

Dear, calm down, take a deep breath, collect your thoughts for a moment and perhaps you might start to make coherent statements...

Then you go on to say that a verdict issued in accordance with international law by a Russia & China court is seriously flawed ?!
(icj1, 20 November 2012 04:22)
--
LOL! Where did you get a "Russia and China" court? Your memory is as selective as the "court" itself. See below as taken from the ICTY website itself. I do not see Russia or China mentioned anywhere. Why is a UN "court" taking private donations?

Check -> http://www.icty.org/sections/AbouttheICTY/SupportandDonations

I quote "The Tribunal gratefully acknowledges the foundations, institutions and governments who have provided voluntary contributions to assist the Tribunal.

Countries: Austria, Belgium, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Malta, Namibia, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, United States.

Non-Governmental Organisations and other Institutions:
Case Western Reserve University, Carnegie Foundation, Coalition for International Justice, MacArthur Foundation, National Bar Association of USA, Rockefeller Foundation, Starechter Public Contribution, Open Society Institute, Organisation for the Security and Cooperation in Europe (on behalf of the government of Canada), University of Amsterdam, Utrecht University."

Going back to his statement, I dispute his thought that 'the verdict caused indignation in big parts of the world'. This is simply not true. The guilt of the two generals has not been proven,
===================================
But it had been proven and they got lengthy sentences. The fact that NATO court didn't like that meant that it had to be done over with predictable outcome.

The court certainly isn't flawed when it comes to rounding up and punishing Serbs for all those crimes.
Tell me, who did they set free and declare innocent for those crimes?
(Peggy, 19 November 2012 23:12)

Serbia's former president, for example
(icj1, 20 November 2012 04:32)

Also Miroslav Radić was found innocent and cleared of all charges despite his involvement in the massacres of Croat civilians on that farm near Ovčara.

I could put a list together of about 40 Serbs and Bosnian Serbs who have had their Indictment withdrawn or been aquitted.

But apparently the ICTY is biased towards Serbs.

Peggy: The answer to your question about Tudjman is that he would have been indicted had he not had the good grace to die first. Don't forget that Milosevic was only indicted in 1999, the year that Tudjman died. As for Oric, he gave himself up to the Hague and faced justice and cannot be blamed for the appeal verdict. He certainly didn't hide away for years on end or disguise himself as a witch doctor. Izetbegovic was largely clueless throughout the conflict and the idea that he could have constructed a 'joint criminal enterprise' or that he had any control over what was going on is laughable. From what I've heard and read he couldn't even control his bladder.....

You "conveniently" omitted the part where these donations from these approximately 45 different states and organizations combined equals less than 1% of the operating budget for the tribunal. I don't think you could really build your case for buying influence based on the WHOLE facts.
(pss, 20 November 2012 11:41)
--
Sorry my friend, but 100% of the courts establishment and initial operating costs were via donations from these organisations. The UN did not have the funds at the time and Russia was refusing to contribute. The dubious foundations of this so-called court exposes exactly its intentions. Check -> http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2009/12/24/the-soros-connection-leading-the-goldstone-lobby

I quote "Soros was one of the two mega-funders that together gave some $1 million to pay for the precursor to the ICTY. Thanks to Neier, a Soros grant then funded the first year of ICTY operations (see here under the “Neier” entry, at p. xviii), with specific funding to the work of Goldstone’s Office of The Prosecutor."

Of course Carla del Ponte will say she's disappointed that justice has not been done. She was the prosecutor in this case and she spent several years on it, so it doesn't look good on her CV. She's not going to say: "Perhaps our case was not as good as we thought".

@Nenad, if you are going to make comparisons then please compare apples with apples.
Gotovona - Mladic
Who do we have to compare against with Karadzic?
Who do we have to compare with Plavsic?
How about Milosevic?
So what happened to Tudjman, Izetbegovic and then we have Oric and Ceku.
So if you want comparisons there are none.
(Peggy, 20 November 2012 10:25)

I told you, I don't know enough about Gotovina's case to comment on its fairness. Mladic's case is still underway.
Mate Boban was probably the Bosnian Croat who would best compare to Karadzic, and he died before he could be brought to the ICTY. Plavsic plead guilty, but a comparable figure would be Stjepan Kljuic -- and that's strictly in terms of rank. I can't recall any international outrage over his wartime actions, but I'd need to check. Tudjman would compare to Milosevic, and I posted yesterday (scroll way down) that he (Tudjman) died before he was indicted. I also gave some brief thoughts on Oric and others.

I repeat, there are no doubt war criminals from the other sides walking free today, and that is a shame. But yesterday ( again, scroll way down), I provided you with some fairly high-profile examples of Serbs acquitted by the ICTY (Radic, Milutinovic), so it's not as though every Serb ever indicted has been locked away for life. And think of guys like Momir Bulatovic and Milo Djukanovic...remember what they did when they ruled CG as Milosevic proxies in the early 1990s? Never indicted!

2012-2013: $ 250,814,000
2010-2011: $ 286,012,600
(pss, 20 November 2012 20:39)
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LOL! Soros funded the first whole year. You purposely avoided posting that. The beginnings of this so-called court are dubious. It is what set the political nature of it. Nothing has changed except the funding structure as it become very expensive to maintain the lies. It cost something like $100 million per Serbian conviction. Yep, as mentioned, it is a very expensive political kangaroo court, which will soon be completely discredited.

Jeff: I am fully cognisant about the UN and its workings and therefore focused my comments on the area that I felt qualified to do so. I am not afraid to admit when I am lacking in knowledge and have no intention of making a fool of myself by giving an opinion when I have insufficient information. Perhaps you might take a similar approach?

(Nenad, 19 November 2012 19:58)
I get your point. I am not very familiar with the case also but I heard there were transcripts. And Tudjman inflamatory speeches are well known. But I cannot believe the first trail got it all wrong. Ultimately, chain of command is at least the one thing that should have gotten them convicted. For sure they knew and there is little proof that they prevented it from happening or corrected it later.
The ICTY convention that was supposed to be held in Belgrade was cancalled. The theme of this 'traveling' convention (they went to Zagreb and Sarajevo before) was 'the legacy of the ICTY'. Well, that legacy is a joke. There was no balanced prosecution and sentencing and hardly any contribution to reconcilliation, although apparently all purpotrators in the cells in Scheveningen got along fine. Perhaps Jeremic's UNGA debate will decide how the UN members see the legacy of this circus.

The court certainly isn't flawed when it comes to rounding up and punishing Serbs for all those crimes.
Tell me, who did they set free and declare innocent for those crimes?
(Peggy, 19 November 2012 23:12)

Serbia's former president, for example

So far in the Serbian press we read of how the court has lost all credibility, the world is in shock, it is a political court handing down purely political decisions. But you know what? We are hearing that from all the same people who have been writing that before these decisions were handed down. So basically the same people who condemned the court this week are the same ones that condemned the court last week. Nothing more, nothing less.

Serbia's former president, for example
(icj1, 20 November 2012 04:32)
==========================

So who is that? Name please.

@Nenad, if you are going to make comparisons then please compare apples with apples.
Gotovona - Mladic
Who do we have to compare against with Karadzic?
Who do we have to compare with Plavsic?
How about Milosevic?
So what happened to Tudjman, Izetbegovic and then we have Oric and Ceku.
So if you want comparisons there are none.

(Zoran, 20 November 2012 12:20)
Go back and read the first link you cited (the official one) as far as the 2nd one on the 1 million dollar contribution to the "precursor" to the ICTY, just what do you think that would have done. That may have paid for the paper and pencil supply, maybe.

http://www.icty.org/sections/AbouttheICTY/SupportandDonations

"Such voluntary contributions make up only a small fraction – less than one per cent - of the Tribunal’s operating budget but are used for vital projects such as exhumation activities and supporting the Tribunal’s groundbreaking Outreach Programme. Voluntary contributions can only be accepted from those states and bodies that comply with the United Nations policy on donations."


REGULAR BUDGET:

2012-2013: $ 250,814,000
2010-2011: $ 286,012,600

Milo Djukanovic...remember what they did when they ruled CG as Milosevic proxies in the early 1990s? Never indicted!
(Nenad, 20 November 2012 15:09)
================================
Again, apples with oranges. Milo is not a Serb (well not by his own admission). He is Montenegrin and is pushing others to distance themselves.
I was talking about the highest offices primarily. Again, you cite Oric as something that I should not mention. He went free and he is comparable to Mladic simply because he tried to exterminate the Serbs from Srebrenica and Mladic had to step in and stop him. The two were in the same place, the same time killing. Difference is that Mladic let the women and children go unlike Oric who was killing all. Now that is genocide mate, not what Mladic did.
Oric admitted it freely and still roams free. So don't tell me that Oric is not guilty, because that is precisely what you keep saying by dismissing him. He ADMITTED IT by bragging about it. Do you get it?

Peggy, I think you have confused me with someone else. Here is what I said about Oric yesterday:

...personally, I haven't liked all that I've seen coming out of the ICTY over the years. The Haradinaj, Oric, Delic, and Blaskic trials are a few that quickly come to mind. It also troubles me that Tudjman and Izetbegovic never were indicted before they died, but then again, Milosevic wasn't indicted until spring 1999, and Tudjman died just a short time after that...

Where have I said that Oric was innocent?

As for Milo Djukanovic, look up his history. He was PM of Montenegro when war broke out in 1991, and strongly identified himself as a Serb. Montenegro was a puppet state for Milosevic back then; there was effectively no difference between the two peoples. After all, Milosevic, Karadzic, Stanisic, Arkan and others were Montenegrin either by birth or ancestry.

As for your comparison of Mladic to Oric, you conveniently omit the history of brutal atrocities committed by the VRS all along the River Drina beginning in spring 1992 -- as if Muslim crimes around Srebrenica were the very first to occur in eastern BiH.

it is a very expensive political kangaroo court, which will soon be completely discredited.
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 21:43)
Interesting comment. Who is it that is going to discredit the ICTY? Serbian opinion? You have tried to discredit the court since I have been reading your comments. The only real way to discredit a court is to have another court to review some if not all of the cases, that is not going to happen. Those on the losing side of any court will always claim it is corrupt, biased, inept, etc etc. So far we have seen nothing different here. Those closely associated with the guilty parties are the ones making these claims here.

So who is that? Name please.
(Peggy, 20 November 2012 10:19)

Sorry, I thought you were a true Serb and would know the former Serb presidents. It was Milan Milutinović, Serbia's president from 1997 to 2002.

The statement is clear my friend. Five judges of this so-called court stand by a guilty conviction whereas three of them do not, one being an American and the other a Turk. It was in response to Ned's point of giving more weight to the three judges.
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:40)

It was not Ned’s point that gives a weight to anything. It is the statute of the court approved by Russia, China & co which gives the three judges of the appellate chamber the ruling majority. So everything is in accordance with the international law – what’s flawed here ?!
----------

Now going back to the list below, you can see the "Open Society Foundations" listed, which if you did some research you would know they provided funds to run this "court" in the whole first year. Isn't that a bit strange for a "Russian and Chinese" court? Look who controls the Open Society Foundations. Check -> [link]
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:40)

Sure, but if there were not a court created by Russia, China & co with all judges elected by Russia, China & co for almost 20 years (the most recent ones in 2012), there would be nothing for Soros or the devil to fund. So, if anybody has anything to complain feel free to let Russia, China & co know.

Good old George Soros funded this court and in fact was key to establishing it. Also, there is a permanent US office based at the ICTY that overseas everything going on. With these latest acquittals, this so-called court has sunk deep into the sewage pond.
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:40)

Very interesting facts. Make sure to let know those who enable the very existence of the court, i.e. Russia, China & co. Apparently they are not aware :).
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LOL! Where did you get a "Russia and China" court? Your memory is as selective as the "court" itself. See below as taken from the ICTY website itself. I do not see Russia or China mentioned anywhere. Why is a UN "court" taking private donations?
(Zoran, 20 November 2012 10:27)

Not sure, dear, that’s what Vuk’s UN says :) You may wish to ask them why they say that Russia and China voted to set up the court and have voted and continue to vote for almost 20 years those judges, including the ones who acquitted Gotovina. Hopefully Vuk’s UN will hear you and correct their records :)

However, don't get depressed, and continue to see the bright side on the fact that Russia and China continue to support Serbia with statetements and words; it's just when it comes to actions that they don't do much, or actually do the opposite of what Serbia wants.

Can people just read the opinions of the two dissenting judges who completely disagree with the verdict? If you read their opinions on the ruling you will really understand how ridiculous the ruling was
(trizo, 20 November 2012 03:12)

Well, but they were two, when the majority was three. The majority's opinion counts. If you read the opinion of the three you will really understand how ridiculous the opinion of the two was. We can continue these games all week if you want and not agree. That's why there is a court there to settle the dispute :)

Peggy,

One more thing: I did a quick search on Stjepan Kljuic and came across this interview with Stjepan Mesic from 1997. Pretty interesting remarks about the 90s wars in general. Mesic's comments echo much of what I've encountered elsewhere in my research. Go to

http://www.ex-yupress.com/tjednik/tjednik2.html

Well done Peggy, you're right with all of your comments.

At the end of the day, what was once a beautiful place is now unrecognizable. None of us should think that the powers that be give a crap about us, I don't care what side you're on. Use your own brains people. What we're told is much different than reality.