PM: Wiretapping affair won’t affect government

Bob the builder one more question, how many people in the country do you estimate had the gall, financial and contact ability to be able to order a wiretap on Nikolic and Vucic?

Would a couple of funders of Dacic's SPS be included in this hand-full of people? Nah, must be a nobody who managed it, for no apparent gain and without any political support. Did it for the lulz....

Wait a minute Ivica, you are a PM +IM. Police are under your supervision, so where that leaves you in this case?

Dačić once again repeated that he as an interior minister had nothing to do with the wiretapping and that he “is not responsible for police operations”.

Nobody is in Serbia for nothing responsible. Only when the EU is demanding nonsense, Dacic is within hours aceepting it also if it is opposite the constitution. Serbia is a state without legal fundaments. How long this can be directed so? In real democracies Dacic werenot one day longer in his position.

The absurd thing is that everybody in Serbia knows that very little happens without political sponsorship. The chances of rogue elements in MUP taking action on their own are very slim.

This wiretapping took place under the auspices of Dacic's Interior Ministry and if he didn't have operational control then his deputy must take the fall. At the very least Dacic and his ministry are guilty of serious incompetence, as such politicians should take responsibility and resign or be dismissed.

Its an embarrassment to Serbian democracy that this is being swept under the carpet. This would not be allowed to pass with ministerial accountability in developed democracies.

Bob the builder with all respect comparing your own phone being tapped with the President of Serbia being tapped is a little absurd.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that low level abuses of MUP or any other form of corruption goes on every day. That's not the issue here.

But seeing as you are giving this forum the benefit of your experience perhaps you might suggest what action should be taken now? You seem to imply this is quite a normal thing.

Are politicians to be exonerated for these crimes on the basis that one 'can order up anything here if you have enough money or, better still, the right connections.'?

But yes you can order anything here if you have enough money or the right connections, very astute - and the same is true for anywhere else.

Btb your case is not extraordinary as you know. The technician you speak of would not know who he was bugging, thats normal in Serbia or in any country in the world. However, the MUP / DB guy would know. That is entirely the point. Unless said DB / MUP guy had a death wish or had permission from somebody upstairs they would not dare to wiretap. As far as legitimate process in concerned, this is Serbia remember...

I don't agree that the trail goes cold easily in Serbia. In fact here most if not all things are known by somebody. The question is whether things will be acted upon, or instead used to blackmail or as political ammunition.

See above for your point on ordering a tap on the President etc.

Yes the rumour you stated sounds like the most plausible explanation. What you havent written is that a normal process of having somebody removed from their job is to actually appoint a new guy. And that this guy formerly close to DS is now under the protection of SNS.

This scandal is more serious than the usual 'normal' process of party relationships in government. Its a sign of cold war between SPS and SNS. The incident on the highway is just another example of that with SNS also being willing to take things to extremes. What neither side seems to understand is that events can spin out of control.

There would be no need for an all out war - SNS could just decide to ditch Dacic.

He did'nt do 'nothin --REALLY! nobody's never does nothin over there, its always somebody else. wiretaps, war crimes... who us?? no way...

2 minor points: 1-correct me if i'm wrong here(and no doubt someone will), but didn't that nice mr. rankovic get his arse kicked after Papa Tito discovered R was wiretapping HIM? I mean wiretap the entire rest of the population, fine (commie-nism, duh, and yes they've wiretapped here in my united states...)

anyway, what was bad news for wiretapping rankovic was good news for the ppl of kosova, at least for a time, before that nice mr milosevic came to power.

2- the Svetlana's of Peschanik -- anyone remember Peschanik? admitted to us their phones were tapped ALL the time, by the um democratic govt's -- so please, this is no great revelation for some of us. they even imitated the sounds the wiretaps made. it was a bit of a lol moment.

anyway, mup got caught in public with its pants down, and dacic the usual, dobri yutra!

roberto frisco

Still peddling your anti-Dacic ramblings bganon?

Your false assumption "The chances of rogue elements in MUP taking action on their own are very slim" is imagination/speculation - not evidence.

Do you have anything more convincing?

My phone was tapped for 6 months on the orders of a middle-grade administrator in the RDB/BIA who was owed a favour by a collegue with the right technical equipment. Job jobbed. The reason? A petty jealousy about the social habits of a junior, prettier colleague. Yes, that petty and descriminate.

bganon, I thought you had lived in Serbia long enough to know that things do not happen in Serbia according to the ways you were brought up with. You can order up anything here if you have enough money or, better still, the right connections.

About Bob the Builders Talkback.
I Quote -

"Still peddling your anti-Dacic ramblings bganon?

Your false assumption "The chances of rogue elements in MUP taking action on their own are very slim" is imagination/speculation - not evidence".

Comment -

How about Bob the Builders own information,
'is he informed about all the movments within MUP,
and how does He know about Dacic ?

Mere Speculations as he writes ?

Arn.Sweden.

This may be a Nixon-like case, with illegal wiretapping (and it is certainly being presented this way) with police segments abusing their power.

But this may also be a Berlusconi-like case (is anybody discussing this?) where all the wiretapping may have been legally requested. This is how Berlusconi went down in Italy. Police wiretapped his associates because of suspicions. They did this following all the legal procedures, giving judges justifications and asking permission from judges. Is it possible that something like this is happening in Serbia too? Vucic and Nikolic should not be above the law.

The first thing to see is if police abused its powers or not.. What are the procedures for requesting wiretapping in Serbia? Is the approval of a judge needed? Is a justification by the police needed with legitimate suspicions to be sent to a judge? Did they follow procedures?

Btb it sounds like you agreed with me on the first point - the person who initiated the tap, whether DB or not would know who the target was. Where we disagree is your belief that anybody can initiate such a tap.

Without enough money and without excellent contacts there is no chance of tapping the president's phone, never mind finding the relevant technician, persuading him without assistance of DS is even more difficult. Utter nonsense that the US embassy can be burned down for EUR 5000. You need not only to pay off mafia type leaders and hooligans, but also the police and perhaps a politician to not intervene. If you are talking about an extraordinary situation to cover such a burning such as a march for Kosovo, thats a different matter, but circumstances are radically different - one cannot get the cover of 100,000 people protest for EUR 5000.

Yes the rot does run through society, I've never claimed anything else and the politicians as a product of society are inclined to behave this way. However, its the politicians that have the best chance of changing society and the worst of those politicians must be targeted. You may be happy to let it rest on blaming things on society, I am keen that things be improved.

By just looking at this development we see that someone is messing with serbia from the inside. The wiretapping is something they found out now but when was it exactly they got there is the question and why? Well after a great visit they noticed. We have the arresting of some people years ago, about a embassy or something. Ivica didnt know about that but he got the blame for it. Already then we had someone that worked above the government and as it seems they have today to. It is difficult to find out who it is for us but i know that the government know but cant say because they dont have enough evidence to support it. I think the people behind this are veri good with democracy since they dont care if the gov. knows they know the gov. cant say anything about it. But i hope it ends today!!

I think this scandal was setup to get Dacic to resign. Serbia will not heel over.

bganon, I fear you have failed to notice the wood whilst you fixate on a particular tree.

My phone was tapped without any form of legitimate process. An individual who owed another individual a favour simply connected up the equipment to a given number. My name, position and address were completely unknown to the technician. All he/she had was a number (2 in fact). I could have been the state president!

Your assumption that a series of individuals left a paper trail with the president's name and address attached is, sadly, a little naive when considering how things work in Serbia.

Viz your questions:
What happens next depends on what EXACTLY happened and who was/is responsible.
With the right connection, which I don't have, I could 'order' a tap on anybody's phone in the way I have described above. So could you.

Arn.Sweden,
It is not for me to 'prove' an individual wasn't involved; it is for an accuser to 'prove' he/she was.


PS. Current rumour mill within the MUP itself is that all this is a fanciful game to have 2 very senior officials in the MUP removed. 2 individuals that should not be in their position had it not been for the protection of the former state president Tadic. Thus, this is not all out war SNS v SPS but a 'normal' cleaning process of an incoming government removing the previous government's placemen.

bganon,
I disagree with your first, and main, point. The person who initiated the tap would know who the target was. That does not necessarily mean that he/she is either a politician nor a member of BIA/MUP/other.

It is a fallacy that things can only be done if they have political approval.

True. Big changes require political patronage, hence why no major (ie key) reforms (social or economic) have occured in Serbia since the fall of Belgrade in 1944.

On the otherhand, just about everything else can be initiated and organised by anybody if they know the right people. Put 5,000 Euro in my account and I'll have the US Embassy burned down for you.

The point I am making is that although the political elite in Serbia are a nest of crooked, self-serving vipers, the rot runs throughout society.

While it may be convenient for you to fire off your musings at selected politicans - today Dacic, previously Kostunica etc etc - as part of your AGITPROP (fixation on a tree), the sad reality is that blame lays within society as a whole not just with a select few (the wood).

In respect of this specific case, we (the public) have no proof beyond newspaper gossip based on deliberate political press leaks that the tapping actually occured. Given that, the rest is just fluff.

In a 'civilised' country, if such a tapping had occured, it would have been resolved behind closed doors and the culprits quietly removed. The 'publicness' of this speaks volumes.

bganon,
Of course the person who ititiates knows the target. Doh!!!! How could anybody argue differently?

Post your fixed-line number and address here and I'll have your line tapped within the month. Won't be legal or legit. But with your consent (you posted the details right), who can touch me? I'll upload the recordings to youtube as evidence/confirmation.

A junction box, a handset and a couple of crocodile clips. A digital recorder too for the proof. Yes, it really is that simple!

You keep banging on about how tapping the president's phone is more difficult. For an amateur like me, yes it is. For a professional with the right equipment, no it isn't. If the alleged tapping did occur, by MUP personnel, all but the initiator will actually know that it is the president's phone being tapped. To everybody else, it's just a number - especially if it was a mobile number. The initiator may or may not be in the MUP.

I appreciate your determination to blame this all on Dacic (or similar) is predicated on the belief that only the very highest can get away with such a thing. My point is that this belief is false. I understand you may choose to disagree as it will undermine the foundation of your AGITPROP.

And the embassy. Again, a belief that it has to have political approval. Keep believing it's so difficult if that helps you stay on message.

PS. Price has risen to 15,000 euro due to your determination not to accept there could be an alternative to your narrative.

Still peddling your anti-Dacic ramblings bganon?

Your false assumption "The chances of rogue elements in MUP taking action on their own are very slim" is imagination/speculation - not evidence.

Do you have anything more convincing?

My phone was tapped for 6 months on the orders of a middle-grade administrator in the RDB/BIA who was owed a favour by a collegue with the right technical equipment. Job jobbed. The reason? A petty jealousy about the social habits of a junior, prettier colleague. Yes, that petty and descriminate.

bganon, I thought you had lived in Serbia long enough to know that things do not happen in Serbia according to the ways you were brought up with. You can order up anything here if you have enough money or, better still, the right connections.

I think this scandal was setup to get Dacic to resign. Serbia will not heel over.

Wait a minute Ivica, you are a PM +IM. Police are under your supervision, so where that leaves you in this case?

The absurd thing is that everybody in Serbia knows that very little happens without political sponsorship. The chances of rogue elements in MUP taking action on their own are very slim.

This wiretapping took place under the auspices of Dacic's Interior Ministry and if he didn't have operational control then his deputy must take the fall. At the very least Dacic and his ministry are guilty of serious incompetence, as such politicians should take responsibility and resign or be dismissed.

Its an embarrassment to Serbian democracy that this is being swept under the carpet. This would not be allowed to pass with ministerial accountability in developed democracies.

He did'nt do 'nothin --REALLY! nobody's never does nothin over there, its always somebody else. wiretaps, war crimes... who us?? no way...

2 minor points: 1-correct me if i'm wrong here(and no doubt someone will), but didn't that nice mr. rankovic get his arse kicked after Papa Tito discovered R was wiretapping HIM? I mean wiretap the entire rest of the population, fine (commie-nism, duh, and yes they've wiretapped here in my united states...)

anyway, what was bad news for wiretapping rankovic was good news for the ppl of kosova, at least for a time, before that nice mr milosevic came to power.

2- the Svetlana's of Peschanik -- anyone remember Peschanik? admitted to us their phones were tapped ALL the time, by the um democratic govt's -- so please, this is no great revelation for some of us. they even imitated the sounds the wiretaps made. it was a bit of a lol moment.

anyway, mup got caught in public with its pants down, and dacic the usual, dobri yutra!

roberto frisco

Dačić once again repeated that he as an interior minister had nothing to do with the wiretapping and that he “is not responsible for police operations”.

Nobody is in Serbia for nothing responsible. Only when the EU is demanding nonsense, Dacic is within hours aceepting it also if it is opposite the constitution. Serbia is a state without legal fundaments. How long this can be directed so? In real democracies Dacic werenot one day longer in his position.

By just looking at this development we see that someone is messing with serbia from the inside. The wiretapping is something they found out now but when was it exactly they got there is the question and why? Well after a great visit they noticed. We have the arresting of some people years ago, about a embassy or something. Ivica didnt know about that but he got the blame for it. Already then we had someone that worked above the government and as it seems they have today to. It is difficult to find out who it is for us but i know that the government know but cant say because they dont have enough evidence to support it. I think the people behind this are veri good with democracy since they dont care if the gov. knows they know the gov. cant say anything about it. But i hope it ends today!!

Bob the builder with all respect comparing your own phone being tapped with the President of Serbia being tapped is a little absurd.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that low level abuses of MUP or any other form of corruption goes on every day. That's not the issue here.

But seeing as you are giving this forum the benefit of your experience perhaps you might suggest what action should be taken now? You seem to imply this is quite a normal thing.

Are politicians to be exonerated for these crimes on the basis that one 'can order up anything here if you have enough money or, better still, the right connections.'?

But yes you can order anything here if you have enough money or the right connections, very astute - and the same is true for anywhere else.

Bob the builder one more question, how many people in the country do you estimate had the gall, financial and contact ability to be able to order a wiretap on Nikolic and Vucic?

Would a couple of funders of Dacic's SPS be included in this hand-full of people? Nah, must be a nobody who managed it, for no apparent gain and without any political support. Did it for the lulz....

About Bob the Builders Talkback.
I Quote -

"Still peddling your anti-Dacic ramblings bganon?

Your false assumption "The chances of rogue elements in MUP taking action on their own are very slim" is imagination/speculation - not evidence".

Comment -

How about Bob the Builders own information,
'is he informed about all the movments within MUP,
and how does He know about Dacic ?

Mere Speculations as he writes ?

Arn.Sweden.

This may be a Nixon-like case, with illegal wiretapping (and it is certainly being presented this way) with police segments abusing their power.

But this may also be a Berlusconi-like case (is anybody discussing this?) where all the wiretapping may have been legally requested. This is how Berlusconi went down in Italy. Police wiretapped his associates because of suspicions. They did this following all the legal procedures, giving judges justifications and asking permission from judges. Is it possible that something like this is happening in Serbia too? Vucic and Nikolic should not be above the law.

The first thing to see is if police abused its powers or not.. What are the procedures for requesting wiretapping in Serbia? Is the approval of a judge needed? Is a justification by the police needed with legitimate suspicions to be sent to a judge? Did they follow procedures?

bganon, I fear you have failed to notice the wood whilst you fixate on a particular tree.

My phone was tapped without any form of legitimate process. An individual who owed another individual a favour simply connected up the equipment to a given number. My name, position and address were completely unknown to the technician. All he/she had was a number (2 in fact). I could have been the state president!

Your assumption that a series of individuals left a paper trail with the president's name and address attached is, sadly, a little naive when considering how things work in Serbia.

Viz your questions:
What happens next depends on what EXACTLY happened and who was/is responsible.
With the right connection, which I don't have, I could 'order' a tap on anybody's phone in the way I have described above. So could you.

Arn.Sweden,
It is not for me to 'prove' an individual wasn't involved; it is for an accuser to 'prove' he/she was.


PS. Current rumour mill within the MUP itself is that all this is a fanciful game to have 2 very senior officials in the MUP removed. 2 individuals that should not be in their position had it not been for the protection of the former state president Tadic. Thus, this is not all out war SNS v SPS but a 'normal' cleaning process of an incoming government removing the previous government's placemen.

Btb your case is not extraordinary as you know. The technician you speak of would not know who he was bugging, thats normal in Serbia or in any country in the world. However, the MUP / DB guy would know. That is entirely the point. Unless said DB / MUP guy had a death wish or had permission from somebody upstairs they would not dare to wiretap. As far as legitimate process in concerned, this is Serbia remember...

I don't agree that the trail goes cold easily in Serbia. In fact here most if not all things are known by somebody. The question is whether things will be acted upon, or instead used to blackmail or as political ammunition.

See above for your point on ordering a tap on the President etc.

Yes the rumour you stated sounds like the most plausible explanation. What you havent written is that a normal process of having somebody removed from their job is to actually appoint a new guy. And that this guy formerly close to DS is now under the protection of SNS.

This scandal is more serious than the usual 'normal' process of party relationships in government. Its a sign of cold war between SPS and SNS. The incident on the highway is just another example of that with SNS also being willing to take things to extremes. What neither side seems to understand is that events can spin out of control.

There would be no need for an all out war - SNS could just decide to ditch Dacic.

bganon,
I disagree with your first, and main, point. The person who initiated the tap would know who the target was. That does not necessarily mean that he/she is either a politician nor a member of BIA/MUP/other.

It is a fallacy that things can only be done if they have political approval.

True. Big changes require political patronage, hence why no major (ie key) reforms (social or economic) have occured in Serbia since the fall of Belgrade in 1944.

On the otherhand, just about everything else can be initiated and organised by anybody if they know the right people. Put 5,000 Euro in my account and I'll have the US Embassy burned down for you.

The point I am making is that although the political elite in Serbia are a nest of crooked, self-serving vipers, the rot runs throughout society.

While it may be convenient for you to fire off your musings at selected politicans - today Dacic, previously Kostunica etc etc - as part of your AGITPROP (fixation on a tree), the sad reality is that blame lays within society as a whole not just with a select few (the wood).

In respect of this specific case, we (the public) have no proof beyond newspaper gossip based on deliberate political press leaks that the tapping actually occured. Given that, the rest is just fluff.

In a 'civilised' country, if such a tapping had occured, it would have been resolved behind closed doors and the culprits quietly removed. The 'publicness' of this speaks volumes.

Btb it sounds like you agreed with me on the first point - the person who initiated the tap, whether DB or not would know who the target was. Where we disagree is your belief that anybody can initiate such a tap.

Without enough money and without excellent contacts there is no chance of tapping the president's phone, never mind finding the relevant technician, persuading him without assistance of DS is even more difficult. Utter nonsense that the US embassy can be burned down for EUR 5000. You need not only to pay off mafia type leaders and hooligans, but also the police and perhaps a politician to not intervene. If you are talking about an extraordinary situation to cover such a burning such as a march for Kosovo, thats a different matter, but circumstances are radically different - one cannot get the cover of 100,000 people protest for EUR 5000.

Yes the rot does run through society, I've never claimed anything else and the politicians as a product of society are inclined to behave this way. However, its the politicians that have the best chance of changing society and the worst of those politicians must be targeted. You may be happy to let it rest on blaming things on society, I am keen that things be improved.

bganon,
Of course the person who ititiates knows the target. Doh!!!! How could anybody argue differently?

Post your fixed-line number and address here and I'll have your line tapped within the month. Won't be legal or legit. But with your consent (you posted the details right), who can touch me? I'll upload the recordings to youtube as evidence/confirmation.

A junction box, a handset and a couple of crocodile clips. A digital recorder too for the proof. Yes, it really is that simple!

You keep banging on about how tapping the president's phone is more difficult. For an amateur like me, yes it is. For a professional with the right equipment, no it isn't. If the alleged tapping did occur, by MUP personnel, all but the initiator will actually know that it is the president's phone being tapped. To everybody else, it's just a number - especially if it was a mobile number. The initiator may or may not be in the MUP.

I appreciate your determination to blame this all on Dacic (or similar) is predicated on the belief that only the very highest can get away with such a thing. My point is that this belief is false. I understand you may choose to disagree as it will undermine the foundation of your AGITPROP.

And the embassy. Again, a belief that it has to have political approval. Keep believing it's so difficult if that helps you stay on message.

PS. Price has risen to 15,000 euro due to your determination not to accept there could be an alternative to your narrative.