I agree with what you are saying and see my previous comment where I said that the UK didn't recognise Soviet occupation over the Baltic States and maintained diplomatic relations with the governments in exile.
When I referred to the former Soviet states, I wasn't specifically referring to the Baltic states as in 1991 it is generally accepted that their independence was being restored and that they're continuing their independence from pre-WW2. There are also similar parallels to the Caucasus states however I'm not too sure if the Soviet Union's sovereignty was recognised over them or not.
I was actually referring to the central Asian states which had been seen as apart of Russia and the Russian Empire before the USSR, as well as Belarus and Ukraine which weren't independent apart from for 5 mins in 1918 when they were recognised by Germany and Austro-Hungary in the dying moments of WW1.
Ian 'Illyrian' UK - we got our protestantism from germans - finns did not. there were thousands of est fighting on russian side as well - both sides were basically forced to do that. by the way - Estonia was the ONLY country before WWII in Europe where Jews and other minorities had cultural autonomy. most of the russians here are colonists and their descendants as albanians are in Serbia - of course if the host nation does not want the spoilers in their house they kick them out - that is only fair. and estonia fought its independence in 1918-20 against russian commies as german supremacists alike - learn history - our history is not imperialistic anglo-saxonian supremacy driven as the UK history - 1991 was just remedy of the past - legally Estonia never ceased to exist - the US never recognised the occupation - unlike british commies and applepolishers...Serbs WILL WIN
(an estonian, 19 October 2012 15:21)
Yes but Finns and Estonians are the same ethnic group in the same way Germans and Austrians are the same ethnic group. Yes and the K-Albanians also fought for their independence too. And there has always been a history of Albanians in Kosovo therefore they aren't "colonialists".
And we all know about the "Estonian Legion", "3rd Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade" ect and how they were commemorated not so long ago.
The UK never recognised the Soviet Occupation of the three Baltic states and we maintained diplomatic relations with the Governments in exile.
USSR and SFRY were both Federations and independence isn't allowed from Federation.
USSR was not a federation - only Russian Socialist Federation was - SU was the union of ' independent' states and their 'right to leave' was stipulated in Constituion. KiM is part of Serbia as long Serbs wish that . it is only Serbian people who will have a right to decide what is going on in their house. There is enough place in Albania or in Germany or the UK to accomadate the most hard-working people in the world - albanians - if they do not want to go back to their paradise in Albanian proper..lol
ian, from uk. as you should know nato nations never recognized that baltic states as being part of ussr. these states were annexed as spoils of ww2 victory. that is why baltic states were recognized almost instantly by nato nations. these nations all agreed that baltic states were being illegally occupied, where as kosovo was seen as a part of serbia by all nations expect a handful (albania and turkey -- as they both have had claims to it) balkan nations.
though i understand your overall argument, you are missing some key facts which have significant impact on the situation.
to Nikolle - i have never served with KFOR but I did it in international organisation in Serbia - many estonians I know previously serving in one or another way in KiM share my point of view or the view of the estonian woman who was married a violent muslim albo, I too know some est exkfor troops as well, i used to visit them at MSU, Film City, Camp Olaf Rye - muslims do not belong to europe - with the rest of those sidetracking non-muslim european tinkers we can figure out by ourselves - we share the same, in broad sense, culture. to Ian 'Illyrian' UK - we got our protestantism from germans - finns did not. there were thousands of est fighting on russian side as well - both sides were basically forced to do that. by the way - Estonia was the ONLY country before WWII in Europe where Jews and other minorities had cultural autonomy. most of the russians here are colonists and their descendants as albanians are in Serbia - of course if the host nation does not want the spoilers in their house they kick them out - that is only fair. and estonia fought its independence in 1918-20 against russian commies as german supremacists alike - learn history - our history is not imperialistic anglo-saxonian supremacy driven as the UK history - 1991 was just remedy of the past - legally Estonia never ceased to exist - the US never recognised the occupation - unlike british commies and applepolishers...Serbs WILL WIN
They were republics while Kosovo wasn't. That's why.
(aaayyy, 19 October 2012 13:59)
It doesn't matter, the USSR and SFRY were both Federations and independence isn't allowed from Federation. In Condeferations, independence is allowed. Serbia and Montenegro was a Condeferation and this is why Montenegro was allowed to break away. The fact that they were former Republics within these former states doesn't change anything as the former states were Federations.
Most former USSR and Yugoslav states ect all unilaterally declared independence, how come they didn't set a precedent but Kosovo did?
(Ian, UK, 18 October 2012 20:56)
They were republics while Kosovo wasn't. That's why.
KiM would never be a precedent for us as we had independent state before WWII but albanian muslims in Serbia do not deserve a state. one article from a estonian woman who was married to a muslim albanian - and she says it in one sentence - muslim albanians are...
use a google translator to figure out about those 'civilised illyrians' [link]
(estonian to IanUK, or whoever you pretend to be, 18 October 2012 21:51)
Now I'm a big fan of Estonia and I love the country, but I could easily take this silly "anti-Kosovo independence argument" and apply it to Estonia if I wanted. And see how you like it.
Shall I try?
You referred to Kosovans as "Albanian Muslims", well one could easily refer to an Estonians as a "Protestant Finns" in a historical part of Russia. Estonians and Albanians supported Nazis in WW2. Estonians are ethically cleansing Russians, Albanians are ethnically cleansing Serbs. Estonia UDI, so did Kosovo.
Why do "Protestant Finns" in Russia deserve an independent state? it was created by western powers after WW1!
=
Why do "Muslim Albanians" in Serbia deserve an independent state? it was created by western powers after the Kosovo War!
Who are you to say if someone deserves a state or not? If the majority of people in area want to decide their own future then that is fair and democratic, especially if they have been oppressed by a bigger power like Estonians (USSR/ Russia) and Kosovans (SFRY/ Serbia).
How I wish Kosovo had had the problems Catalans are having. Richer than their neighbors and not wishing to pay taxes, that is. If only. 20 years ago, that was Slovenians however. So, the comparison should be made with Slovenia. And maybe in the future it will be Vojvodiniaks but hopefully not.
Even if Catalonia is now openly pushing for independence, I sincerely doubt its leaders would want to follow the "Kosovo" model. They want to succeed and be a sovereign state, not a barely sovereign dysfunctionally impoverished EU protectorate run by a criminal mafia desperately seeking protection from prosecution by the US Government :)
KiM would never be a precedent for us as we had independent state before WWII but albanian muslims in Serbia do not deserve a state. one article from a estonian woman who was married to a muslim albanian - and she says it in one sentence - muslim albanians are...
use a google translator to figure out about those 'civilised illyrians' http://naistekas.delfi.ee/kirevmaailm/uudised/vagivaldse-albaanlase-kaest-paasenud-naine-eesti-mees-on-ikkagi-koige-parem.d?id=65131200
LoL: "Spain conquers Catalonia by force." Wrong! Spain was formed after the marriage of Fernando of Aragon (Greatrer Catalunia) and Isabela od Castilia. There was no such a thing as "Spain" before that marriage. And for the first few centurie it was Catalunia that was a burden. All the gold that the Castilianos managed to extract from the Americas, the Catalunians spent in futile wars arround the Medeterenian. (Sicily, Calabria, Sardenia, Nepales etc...) During the Spanish civil war the Catalunians broke away from the Republic and thus enebled Franco to win! Was that good or bad? Depends on whom you ask. Anyway its 21 century. If the Catalunians think that the marriage is over, so be it! better neighborly respect than a disfunctional family.
Notice how in this article how no-one from Catalan has referred to Kosovo or drawn parallels to Kosovo, only journalists and "commentators"have done this.
Have people in Cataloania really been inspired by Kosovo? Do Catalan people even know or care about Kosovo?
Or have they been inspired by Montenegro, Scotland and South Sudan? Or do Catalans genuinely want independence like they have for hundreds of years?
There really is no proof to suggest that there is a "Kosovo Precedent". The "Kosovo Precedent" has been artificially manufactured by opponents of Kosovo's Independence to lobby against Kosovo's recognition.
Which Catalan politicians have said that they're going for independence because Kosovo made it possible? Which Scottish politicians have said this? Which Flemish, which Basque ect?
The only example I can think of is the Bosnian Serbs in RS and that is because they're opponents to Kosovo's independence.
Most former USSR and Yugoslav states ect all unilaterally declared independence, how come they didn't set a precedent but Kosovo did?
Spain has a fascistic past, like Serbian cetniks.
All people must be free of Spanic and Serbian rule.
(Adem, 18 October 2012 19:24)
--
LOL! So says the NAZI loving Albanians. BTW, how are your relations with Turkey going? Looking pretty good for Turkey I must say. They just bought your state energy firm for a mere €23 mil. LOL! Good luck with your indipindince...
If Catalonia's pro-independence movement is using Kosovo as an example could that mean that Kosovo's prime minister (that is if he is the prime minister) Hashim Thaci be the guest of honor if he was invited to Catalonia to be a guest speaker and/or champion Catalonia's right to sovereignty?
As for you Beast after reading your comments don't you think it's bigotry if you or the EU regard Albanians as an inferior race? If you asked what I think of Serbs I don't view them as being an inferior race of people but at the same time I don't regard them as being a superior race of people.
Serbs have no one to blame but them self for starting 4 unnecessary wars. Truth
Mr./Mrs. Truth (in your own eyes), the civil war in Kosovo was started with terrorist actions by the Albanian KLA against Serbian police and civilians. It was Milosevic's hard-handed response that eventually got NATO involved, although that was surely by design by DC and its tentacles. There is nothing "unique" about Kosovo, regardless of the spin sent out by the US State Dept. And after the highly questionable response by US State Dept., led by our beloved Hillary Clinton, on the attack of the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi, the US State Dept. has lost quit a bit of credibility. There are many places around the world where ethnicities have disputes within a country, and the NATO does not intervene, just look at how many Kurds the Turks have killed. No, Kosovo is not unique, and that defense cannot be used for not allowing Catalonia its right to independence. There can be no double standards in these affairs, no matter what America's and the EU's agenda's may be.
Love to see Spain disintegrate. The same fate to follow Romania and Slovakia . Grease will fall at the bottom of the Aegean under the burden of debt, or simply be bought out by Turkey, in exchange for ouzo money.
Catalonia will never get independence, this is a massive joke, if it didn't happen for the Basque is wont happen for Catalonia. They are all Spanish people so they should and will remain part of Spain.
I'm happy to see Europe fall appart slowely but surely thanks to Kosovo. "Kosovo is a special case my a.s! I hope more countries in Europe follow this example: Scottland, Catalonia, Republika Srpska, Northern Epirus, Wales etc. Europe deserves nothing less!
Spain must decide whether it wants to follow the reasonable example of Great Britain (indeed of the fromer USSR and Czechoslovakia) or the horrible experience of former Yugoslavia.
Kosovo's independence is a bad example to all separatist movements in Europe. I can not say I'm not glad that it's happening in other places. No one nation can know how we Serbs feel until they feel the same on their own skin.
"Koaova"* is a unique case??? LOL! We already have South Ossetia and Abkhazia to prove that wrong. We will also see Catalonia, Scotland, Wales, Basque, Flanders, Republika Srpska and many other new quasi states in Europe, semi recognised, more than autonomous, less than independent.
The can of worms has been opened. As you sow, so shall you reap.
If that`s what they should have independence , it`s not fair to give -8% of taxes back to some other spanish regions from the catalan`s pocket. What`s the point of living with someone you don`t like.
The logic of the conqueror is always to laugh about.
Spain to Catalonia : I want you .
Catalonia : I don`t want you.
Catalonia vs Spain.
Spain conquers Catalonia by force.
Spain gets money and territory.
Catalonia wants independence.
Spain : You don`t have the right to be independent because I own you since 11 September 1714 by force.
I don't think they'll be able to use Kosovo as a precedent. But, If you can make it work then go for it!
(cry me a river, 18 October 2012 16:17)
--
Well, I think the bigger problem here is that Spain will resist any kind of secession, so in that case you can forget about Spain recognising "Kosova"*.
So the dilemma for the EU is that "Kosova"* has no chance of entering the EU unless K*-Albanians drop this delusional independence idea. No EU, no UN and no independence. Just some quasi more than autonomy, less than independence formula.
Kosovo is quickly emerging for what it was all along, a unique case that lacks uniqueness.
In the end the EU creates its own definitions to fit its agenda and interests. Orwell said it best in Animal Farm: “All animas are equal; but the pigs are more equal.” The EU has its pet projects and groups it deems “more equal” and deserving of its benevolent protection. EU views Albanians as the inferior race du jour that needs EU cajoling and nurturing. EU sees Catalonians as everything Albanians are not - wealthy, intelligent and sophisticated - and thusly undeserving of EU altruism.
I love it, This is what the EU gets for following the USA off a cliff. You reap what you sow! Lets go Germany, France , England, Italy give Catalonia their "right to self-determination." Whose next in line for self -determination? Is it the Republic of Srpkska? Basque? Flemish ? Scots
I love it, This is what the EU gets for following the USA off a cliff. You reap what you sow! Lets go Germany, France , England, Italy give Catalonia their "right to self-determination." Whose next in line for self -determination? Is it the Republic of Srpkska? Basque? Flemish ? Scots
I'm happy to see Europe fall appart slowely but surely thanks to Kosovo. "Kosovo is a special case my a.s! I hope more countries in Europe follow this example: Scottland, Catalonia, Republika Srpska, Northern Epirus, Wales etc. Europe deserves nothing less!
Spain must decide whether it wants to follow the reasonable example of Great Britain (indeed of the fromer USSR and Czechoslovakia) or the horrible experience of former Yugoslavia.
Kosovo's independence is a bad example to all separatist movements in Europe. I can not say I'm not glad that it's happening in other places. No one nation can know how we Serbs feel until they feel the same on their own skin.
If that`s what they should have independence , it`s not fair to give -8% of taxes back to some other spanish regions from the catalan`s pocket. What`s the point of living with someone you don`t like.
The logic of the conqueror is always to laugh about.
Spain to Catalonia : I want you .
Catalonia : I don`t want you.
Catalonia vs Spain.
Spain conquers Catalonia by force.
Spain gets money and territory.
Catalonia wants independence.
Spain : You don`t have the right to be independent because I own you since 11 September 1714 by force.
"Koaova"* is a unique case??? LOL! We already have South Ossetia and Abkhazia to prove that wrong. We will also see Catalonia, Scotland, Wales, Basque, Flanders, Republika Srpska and many other new quasi states in Europe, semi recognised, more than autonomous, less than independent.
The can of worms has been opened. As you sow, so shall you reap.
Kosovo is quickly emerging for what it was all along, a unique case that lacks uniqueness.
In the end the EU creates its own definitions to fit its agenda and interests. Orwell said it best in Animal Farm: “All animas are equal; but the pigs are more equal.” The EU has its pet projects and groups it deems “more equal” and deserving of its benevolent protection. EU views Albanians as the inferior race du jour that needs EU cajoling and nurturing. EU sees Catalonians as everything Albanians are not - wealthy, intelligent and sophisticated - and thusly undeserving of EU altruism.
I don't think they'll be able to use Kosovo as a precedent. But, If you can make it work then go for it!
(cry me a river, 18 October 2012 16:17)
--
Well, I think the bigger problem here is that Spain will resist any kind of secession, so in that case you can forget about Spain recognising "Kosova"*.
So the dilemma for the EU is that "Kosova"* has no chance of entering the EU unless K*-Albanians drop this delusional independence idea. No EU, no UN and no independence. Just some quasi more than autonomy, less than independence formula.
Serbs have no one to blame but them self for starting 4 unnecessary wars. Truth
Mr./Mrs. Truth (in your own eyes), the civil war in Kosovo was started with terrorist actions by the Albanian KLA against Serbian police and civilians. It was Milosevic's hard-handed response that eventually got NATO involved, although that was surely by design by DC and its tentacles. There is nothing "unique" about Kosovo, regardless of the spin sent out by the US State Dept. And after the highly questionable response by US State Dept., led by our beloved Hillary Clinton, on the attack of the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi, the US State Dept. has lost quit a bit of credibility. There are many places around the world where ethnicities have disputes within a country, and the NATO does not intervene, just look at how many Kurds the Turks have killed. No, Kosovo is not unique, and that defense cannot be used for not allowing Catalonia its right to independence. There can be no double standards in these affairs, no matter what America's and the EU's agenda's may be.
Spain has a fascistic past, like Serbian cetniks.
All people must be free of Spanic and Serbian rule.
(Adem, 18 October 2012 19:24)
--
LOL! So says the NAZI loving Albanians. BTW, how are your relations with Turkey going? Looking pretty good for Turkey I must say. They just bought your state energy firm for a mere €23 mil. LOL! Good luck with your indipindince...
Even if Catalonia is now openly pushing for independence, I sincerely doubt its leaders would want to follow the "Kosovo" model. They want to succeed and be a sovereign state, not a barely sovereign dysfunctionally impoverished EU protectorate run by a criminal mafia desperately seeking protection from prosecution by the US Government :)
Notice how in this article how no-one from Catalan has referred to Kosovo or drawn parallels to Kosovo, only journalists and "commentators"have done this.
Have people in Cataloania really been inspired by Kosovo? Do Catalan people even know or care about Kosovo?
Or have they been inspired by Montenegro, Scotland and South Sudan? Or do Catalans genuinely want independence like they have for hundreds of years?
There really is no proof to suggest that there is a "Kosovo Precedent". The "Kosovo Precedent" has been artificially manufactured by opponents of Kosovo's Independence to lobby against Kosovo's recognition.
Which Catalan politicians have said that they're going for independence because Kosovo made it possible? Which Scottish politicians have said this? Which Flemish, which Basque ect?
The only example I can think of is the Bosnian Serbs in RS and that is because they're opponents to Kosovo's independence.
Most former USSR and Yugoslav states ect all unilaterally declared independence, how come they didn't set a precedent but Kosovo did?
Catalonia will never get independence, this is a massive joke, if it didn't happen for the Basque is wont happen for Catalonia. They are all Spanish people so they should and will remain part of Spain.
Love to see Spain disintegrate. The same fate to follow Romania and Slovakia . Grease will fall at the bottom of the Aegean under the burden of debt, or simply be bought out by Turkey, in exchange for ouzo money.
KiM would never be a precedent for us as we had independent state before WWII but albanian muslims in Serbia do not deserve a state. one article from a estonian woman who was married to a muslim albanian - and she says it in one sentence - muslim albanians are...
use a google translator to figure out about those 'civilised illyrians' http://naistekas.delfi.ee/kirevmaailm/uudised/vagivaldse-albaanlase-kaest-paasenud-naine-eesti-mees-on-ikkagi-koige-parem.d?id=65131200
LoL: "Spain conquers Catalonia by force." Wrong! Spain was formed after the marriage of Fernando of Aragon (Greatrer Catalunia) and Isabela od Castilia. There was no such a thing as "Spain" before that marriage. And for the first few centurie it was Catalunia that was a burden. All the gold that the Castilianos managed to extract from the Americas, the Catalunians spent in futile wars arround the Medeterenian. (Sicily, Calabria, Sardenia, Nepales etc...) During the Spanish civil war the Catalunians broke away from the Republic and thus enebled Franco to win! Was that good or bad? Depends on whom you ask. Anyway its 21 century. If the Catalunians think that the marriage is over, so be it! better neighborly respect than a disfunctional family.
KiM would never be a precedent for us as we had independent state before WWII but albanian muslims in Serbia do not deserve a state. one article from a estonian woman who was married to a muslim albanian - and she says it in one sentence - muslim albanians are...
use a google translator to figure out about those 'civilised illyrians' [link]
(estonian to IanUK, or whoever you pretend to be, 18 October 2012 21:51)
Now I'm a big fan of Estonia and I love the country, but I could easily take this silly "anti-Kosovo independence argument" and apply it to Estonia if I wanted. And see how you like it.
Shall I try?
You referred to Kosovans as "Albanian Muslims", well one could easily refer to an Estonians as a "Protestant Finns" in a historical part of Russia. Estonians and Albanians supported Nazis in WW2. Estonians are ethically cleansing Russians, Albanians are ethnically cleansing Serbs. Estonia UDI, so did Kosovo.
Why do "Protestant Finns" in Russia deserve an independent state? it was created by western powers after WW1!
=
Why do "Muslim Albanians" in Serbia deserve an independent state? it was created by western powers after the Kosovo War!
Who are you to say if someone deserves a state or not? If the majority of people in area want to decide their own future then that is fair and democratic, especially if they have been oppressed by a bigger power like Estonians (USSR/ Russia) and Kosovans (SFRY/ Serbia).
If Catalonia's pro-independence movement is using Kosovo as an example could that mean that Kosovo's prime minister (that is if he is the prime minister) Hashim Thaci be the guest of honor if he was invited to Catalonia to be a guest speaker and/or champion Catalonia's right to sovereignty?
As for you Beast after reading your comments don't you think it's bigotry if you or the EU regard Albanians as an inferior race? If you asked what I think of Serbs I don't view them as being an inferior race of people but at the same time I don't regard them as being a superior race of people.
How I wish Kosovo had had the problems Catalans are having. Richer than their neighbors and not wishing to pay taxes, that is. If only. 20 years ago, that was Slovenians however. So, the comparison should be made with Slovenia. And maybe in the future it will be Vojvodiniaks but hopefully not.
to Nikolle - i have never served with KFOR but I did it in international organisation in Serbia - many estonians I know previously serving in one or another way in KiM share my point of view or the view of the estonian woman who was married a violent muslim albo, I too know some est exkfor troops as well, i used to visit them at MSU, Film City, Camp Olaf Rye - muslims do not belong to europe - with the rest of those sidetracking non-muslim european tinkers we can figure out by ourselves - we share the same, in broad sense, culture. to Ian 'Illyrian' UK - we got our protestantism from germans - finns did not. there were thousands of est fighting on russian side as well - both sides were basically forced to do that. by the way - Estonia was the ONLY country before WWII in Europe where Jews and other minorities had cultural autonomy. most of the russians here are colonists and their descendants as albanians are in Serbia - of course if the host nation does not want the spoilers in their house they kick them out - that is only fair. and estonia fought its independence in 1918-20 against russian commies as german supremacists alike - learn history - our history is not imperialistic anglo-saxonian supremacy driven as the UK history - 1991 was just remedy of the past - legally Estonia never ceased to exist - the US never recognised the occupation - unlike british commies and applepolishers...Serbs WILL WIN
ian, from uk. as you should know nato nations never recognized that baltic states as being part of ussr. these states were annexed as spoils of ww2 victory. that is why baltic states were recognized almost instantly by nato nations. these nations all agreed that baltic states were being illegally occupied, where as kosovo was seen as a part of serbia by all nations expect a handful (albania and turkey -- as they both have had claims to it) balkan nations.
though i understand your overall argument, you are missing some key facts which have significant impact on the situation.
USSR and SFRY were both Federations and independence isn't allowed from Federation.
USSR was not a federation - only Russian Socialist Federation was - SU was the union of ' independent' states and their 'right to leave' was stipulated in Constituion. KiM is part of Serbia as long Serbs wish that . it is only Serbian people who will have a right to decide what is going on in their house. There is enough place in Albania or in Germany or the UK to accomadate the most hard-working people in the world - albanians - if they do not want to go back to their paradise in Albanian proper..lol
Most former USSR and Yugoslav states ect all unilaterally declared independence, how come they didn't set a precedent but Kosovo did?
(Ian, UK, 18 October 2012 20:56)
They were republics while Kosovo wasn't. That's why.
They were republics while Kosovo wasn't. That's why.
(aaayyy, 19 October 2012 13:59)
It doesn't matter, the USSR and SFRY were both Federations and independence isn't allowed from Federation. In Condeferations, independence is allowed. Serbia and Montenegro was a Condeferation and this is why Montenegro was allowed to break away. The fact that they were former Republics within these former states doesn't change anything as the former states were Federations.
Ian 'Illyrian' UK - we got our protestantism from germans - finns did not. there were thousands of est fighting on russian side as well - both sides were basically forced to do that. by the way - Estonia was the ONLY country before WWII in Europe where Jews and other minorities had cultural autonomy. most of the russians here are colonists and their descendants as albanians are in Serbia - of course if the host nation does not want the spoilers in their house they kick them out - that is only fair. and estonia fought its independence in 1918-20 against russian commies as german supremacists alike - learn history - our history is not imperialistic anglo-saxonian supremacy driven as the UK history - 1991 was just remedy of the past - legally Estonia never ceased to exist - the US never recognised the occupation - unlike british commies and applepolishers...Serbs WILL WIN
(an estonian, 19 October 2012 15:21)
Yes but Finns and Estonians are the same ethnic group in the same way Germans and Austrians are the same ethnic group. Yes and the K-Albanians also fought for their independence too. And there has always been a history of Albanians in Kosovo therefore they aren't "colonialists".
And we all know about the "Estonian Legion", "3rd Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade" ect and how they were commemorated not so long ago.
The UK never recognised the Soviet Occupation of the three Baltic states and we maintained diplomatic relations with the Governments in exile.
I agree with what you are saying and see my previous comment where I said that the UK didn't recognise Soviet occupation over the Baltic States and maintained diplomatic relations with the governments in exile.
When I referred to the former Soviet states, I wasn't specifically referring to the Baltic states as in 1991 it is generally accepted that their independence was being restored and that they're continuing their independence from pre-WW2. There are also similar parallels to the Caucasus states however I'm not too sure if the Soviet Union's sovereignty was recognised over them or not.
I was actually referring to the central Asian states which had been seen as apart of Russia and the Russian Empire before the USSR, as well as Belarus and Ukraine which weren't independent apart from for 5 mins in 1918 when they were recognised by Germany and Austro-Hungary in the dying moments of WW1.
Catalonia will never get independence, this is a massive joke, if it didn't happen for the Basque is wont happen for Catalonia. They are all Spanish people so they should and will remain part of Spain.
I love it, This is what the EU gets for following the USA off a cliff. You reap what you sow! Lets go Germany, France , England, Italy give Catalonia their "right to self-determination." Whose next in line for self -determination? Is it the Republic of Srpkska? Basque? Flemish ? Scots
Kosovo is quickly emerging for what it was all along, a unique case that lacks uniqueness.
In the end the EU creates its own definitions to fit its agenda and interests. Orwell said it best in Animal Farm: “All animas are equal; but the pigs are more equal.” The EU has its pet projects and groups it deems “more equal” and deserving of its benevolent protection. EU views Albanians as the inferior race du jour that needs EU cajoling and nurturing. EU sees Catalonians as everything Albanians are not - wealthy, intelligent and sophisticated - and thusly undeserving of EU altruism.
Notice how in this article how no-one from Catalan has referred to Kosovo or drawn parallels to Kosovo, only journalists and "commentators"have done this.
Have people in Cataloania really been inspired by Kosovo? Do Catalan people even know or care about Kosovo?
Or have they been inspired by Montenegro, Scotland and South Sudan? Or do Catalans genuinely want independence like they have for hundreds of years?
There really is no proof to suggest that there is a "Kosovo Precedent". The "Kosovo Precedent" has been artificially manufactured by opponents of Kosovo's Independence to lobby against Kosovo's recognition.
Which Catalan politicians have said that they're going for independence because Kosovo made it possible? Which Scottish politicians have said this? Which Flemish, which Basque ect?
The only example I can think of is the Bosnian Serbs in RS and that is because they're opponents to Kosovo's independence.
Most former USSR and Yugoslav states ect all unilaterally declared independence, how come they didn't set a precedent but Kosovo did?
I'm happy to see Europe fall appart slowely but surely thanks to Kosovo. "Kosovo is a special case my a.s! I hope more countries in Europe follow this example: Scottland, Catalonia, Republika Srpska, Northern Epirus, Wales etc. Europe deserves nothing less!
I don't think they'll be able to use Kosovo as a precedent. But, If you can make it work then go for it!
(cry me a river, 18 October 2012 16:17)
--
Well, I think the bigger problem here is that Spain will resist any kind of secession, so in that case you can forget about Spain recognising "Kosova"*.
So the dilemma for the EU is that "Kosova"* has no chance of entering the EU unless K*-Albanians drop this delusional independence idea. No EU, no UN and no independence. Just some quasi more than autonomy, less than independence formula.
KiM would never be a precedent for us as we had independent state before WWII but albanian muslims in Serbia do not deserve a state. one article from a estonian woman who was married to a muslim albanian - and she says it in one sentence - muslim albanians are...
use a google translator to figure out about those 'civilised illyrians' http://naistekas.delfi.ee/kirevmaailm/uudised/vagivaldse-albaanlase-kaest-paasenud-naine-eesti-mees-on-ikkagi-koige-parem.d?id=65131200
Kosovo's independence is a bad example to all separatist movements in Europe. I can not say I'm not glad that it's happening in other places. No one nation can know how we Serbs feel until they feel the same on their own skin.
Love to see Spain disintegrate. The same fate to follow Romania and Slovakia . Grease will fall at the bottom of the Aegean under the burden of debt, or simply be bought out by Turkey, in exchange for ouzo money.
"Koaova"* is a unique case??? LOL! We already have South Ossetia and Abkhazia to prove that wrong. We will also see Catalonia, Scotland, Wales, Basque, Flanders, Republika Srpska and many other new quasi states in Europe, semi recognised, more than autonomous, less than independent.
The can of worms has been opened. As you sow, so shall you reap.
If Catalonia's pro-independence movement is using Kosovo as an example could that mean that Kosovo's prime minister (that is if he is the prime minister) Hashim Thaci be the guest of honor if he was invited to Catalonia to be a guest speaker and/or champion Catalonia's right to sovereignty?
As for you Beast after reading your comments don't you think it's bigotry if you or the EU regard Albanians as an inferior race? If you asked what I think of Serbs I don't view them as being an inferior race of people but at the same time I don't regard them as being a superior race of people.
Serbs have no one to blame but them self for starting 4 unnecessary wars. Truth
Mr./Mrs. Truth (in your own eyes), the civil war in Kosovo was started with terrorist actions by the Albanian KLA against Serbian police and civilians. It was Milosevic's hard-handed response that eventually got NATO involved, although that was surely by design by DC and its tentacles. There is nothing "unique" about Kosovo, regardless of the spin sent out by the US State Dept. And after the highly questionable response by US State Dept., led by our beloved Hillary Clinton, on the attack of the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi, the US State Dept. has lost quit a bit of credibility. There are many places around the world where ethnicities have disputes within a country, and the NATO does not intervene, just look at how many Kurds the Turks have killed. No, Kosovo is not unique, and that defense cannot be used for not allowing Catalonia its right to independence. There can be no double standards in these affairs, no matter what America's and the EU's agenda's may be.
Spain has a fascistic past, like Serbian cetniks.
All people must be free of Spanic and Serbian rule.
(Adem, 18 October 2012 19:24)
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LOL! So says the NAZI loving Albanians. BTW, how are your relations with Turkey going? Looking pretty good for Turkey I must say. They just bought your state energy firm for a mere €23 mil. LOL! Good luck with your indipindince...
Even if Catalonia is now openly pushing for independence, I sincerely doubt its leaders would want to follow the "Kosovo" model. They want to succeed and be a sovereign state, not a barely sovereign dysfunctionally impoverished EU protectorate run by a criminal mafia desperately seeking protection from prosecution by the US Government :)
KiM would never be a precedent for us as we had independent state before WWII but albanian muslims in Serbia do not deserve a state. one article from a estonian woman who was married to a muslim albanian - and she says it in one sentence - muslim albanians are...
use a google translator to figure out about those 'civilised illyrians' [link]
(estonian to IanUK, or whoever you pretend to be, 18 October 2012 21:51)
Now I'm a big fan of Estonia and I love the country, but I could easily take this silly "anti-Kosovo independence argument" and apply it to Estonia if I wanted. And see how you like it.
Shall I try?
You referred to Kosovans as "Albanian Muslims", well one could easily refer to an Estonians as a "Protestant Finns" in a historical part of Russia. Estonians and Albanians supported Nazis in WW2. Estonians are ethically cleansing Russians, Albanians are ethnically cleansing Serbs. Estonia UDI, so did Kosovo.
Why do "Protestant Finns" in Russia deserve an independent state? it was created by western powers after WW1!
=
Why do "Muslim Albanians" in Serbia deserve an independent state? it was created by western powers after the Kosovo War!
Who are you to say if someone deserves a state or not? If the majority of people in area want to decide their own future then that is fair and democratic, especially if they have been oppressed by a bigger power like Estonians (USSR/ Russia) and Kosovans (SFRY/ Serbia).
They were republics while Kosovo wasn't. That's why.
(aaayyy, 19 October 2012 13:59)
It doesn't matter, the USSR and SFRY were both Federations and independence isn't allowed from Federation. In Condeferations, independence is allowed. Serbia and Montenegro was a Condeferation and this is why Montenegro was allowed to break away. The fact that they were former Republics within these former states doesn't change anything as the former states were Federations.
to Nikolle - i have never served with KFOR but I did it in international organisation in Serbia - many estonians I know previously serving in one or another way in KiM share my point of view or the view of the estonian woman who was married a violent muslim albo, I too know some est exkfor troops as well, i used to visit them at MSU, Film City, Camp Olaf Rye - muslims do not belong to europe - with the rest of those sidetracking non-muslim european tinkers we can figure out by ourselves - we share the same, in broad sense, culture. to Ian 'Illyrian' UK - we got our protestantism from germans - finns did not. there were thousands of est fighting on russian side as well - both sides were basically forced to do that. by the way - Estonia was the ONLY country before WWII in Europe where Jews and other minorities had cultural autonomy. most of the russians here are colonists and their descendants as albanians are in Serbia - of course if the host nation does not want the spoilers in their house they kick them out - that is only fair. and estonia fought its independence in 1918-20 against russian commies as german supremacists alike - learn history - our history is not imperialistic anglo-saxonian supremacy driven as the UK history - 1991 was just remedy of the past - legally Estonia never ceased to exist - the US never recognised the occupation - unlike british commies and applepolishers...Serbs WILL WIN
USSR and SFRY were both Federations and independence isn't allowed from Federation.
USSR was not a federation - only Russian Socialist Federation was - SU was the union of ' independent' states and their 'right to leave' was stipulated in Constituion. KiM is part of Serbia as long Serbs wish that . it is only Serbian people who will have a right to decide what is going on in their house. There is enough place in Albania or in Germany or the UK to accomadate the most hard-working people in the world - albanians - if they do not want to go back to their paradise in Albanian proper..lol
If that`s what they should have independence , it`s not fair to give -8% of taxes back to some other spanish regions from the catalan`s pocket. What`s the point of living with someone you don`t like.
The logic of the conqueror is always to laugh about.
Spain to Catalonia : I want you .
Catalonia : I don`t want you.
Catalonia vs Spain.
Spain conquers Catalonia by force.
Spain gets money and territory.
Catalonia wants independence.
Spain : You don`t have the right to be independent because I own you since 11 September 1714 by force.
How I wish Kosovo had had the problems Catalans are having. Richer than their neighbors and not wishing to pay taxes, that is. If only. 20 years ago, that was Slovenians however. So, the comparison should be made with Slovenia. And maybe in the future it will be Vojvodiniaks but hopefully not.
Most former USSR and Yugoslav states ect all unilaterally declared independence, how come they didn't set a precedent but Kosovo did?
(Ian, UK, 18 October 2012 20:56)
They were republics while Kosovo wasn't. That's why.
ian, from uk. as you should know nato nations never recognized that baltic states as being part of ussr. these states were annexed as spoils of ww2 victory. that is why baltic states were recognized almost instantly by nato nations. these nations all agreed that baltic states were being illegally occupied, where as kosovo was seen as a part of serbia by all nations expect a handful (albania and turkey -- as they both have had claims to it) balkan nations.
though i understand your overall argument, you are missing some key facts which have significant impact on the situation.
Spain must decide whether it wants to follow the reasonable example of Great Britain (indeed of the fromer USSR and Czechoslovakia) or the horrible experience of former Yugoslavia.
LoL: "Spain conquers Catalonia by force." Wrong! Spain was formed after the marriage of Fernando of Aragon (Greatrer Catalunia) and Isabela od Castilia. There was no such a thing as "Spain" before that marriage. And for the first few centurie it was Catalunia that was a burden. All the gold that the Castilianos managed to extract from the Americas, the Catalunians spent in futile wars arround the Medeterenian. (Sicily, Calabria, Sardenia, Nepales etc...) During the Spanish civil war the Catalunians broke away from the Republic and thus enebled Franco to win! Was that good or bad? Depends on whom you ask. Anyway its 21 century. If the Catalunians think that the marriage is over, so be it! better neighborly respect than a disfunctional family.
Ian 'Illyrian' UK - we got our protestantism from germans - finns did not. there were thousands of est fighting on russian side as well - both sides were basically forced to do that. by the way - Estonia was the ONLY country before WWII in Europe where Jews and other minorities had cultural autonomy. most of the russians here are colonists and their descendants as albanians are in Serbia - of course if the host nation does not want the spoilers in their house they kick them out - that is only fair. and estonia fought its independence in 1918-20 against russian commies as german supremacists alike - learn history - our history is not imperialistic anglo-saxonian supremacy driven as the UK history - 1991 was just remedy of the past - legally Estonia never ceased to exist - the US never recognised the occupation - unlike british commies and applepolishers...Serbs WILL WIN
(an estonian, 19 October 2012 15:21)
Yes but Finns and Estonians are the same ethnic group in the same way Germans and Austrians are the same ethnic group. Yes and the K-Albanians also fought for their independence too. And there has always been a history of Albanians in Kosovo therefore they aren't "colonialists".
And we all know about the "Estonian Legion", "3rd Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade" ect and how they were commemorated not so long ago.
The UK never recognised the Soviet Occupation of the three Baltic states and we maintained diplomatic relations with the Governments in exile.
I agree with what you are saying and see my previous comment where I said that the UK didn't recognise Soviet occupation over the Baltic States and maintained diplomatic relations with the governments in exile.
When I referred to the former Soviet states, I wasn't specifically referring to the Baltic states as in 1991 it is generally accepted that their independence was being restored and that they're continuing their independence from pre-WW2. There are also similar parallels to the Caucasus states however I'm not too sure if the Soviet Union's sovereignty was recognised over them or not.
I was actually referring to the central Asian states which had been seen as apart of Russia and the Russian Empire before the USSR, as well as Belarus and Ukraine which weren't independent apart from for 5 mins in 1918 when they were recognised by Germany and Austro-Hungary in the dying moments of WW1.
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