United Serbia (JS) leader and MP Dragan "Palma" Marković has said that the Belgrade Pride Parade, planned for October 6, would not be held this year either.
@SCP UK: No they can not live in peace. Plus, they group is not as small as you might think.
What a respectful and great culture that discriminates minorities, suppresses parts of its society, treats those groups with violence and excludes them from society. What a lovely environment to raise your children. No surprise for me that so many are leaving the Balkans.
You really don't get it, today it is the gays, the Roma, , the women, the Albanians, the whatever, and tomorrow you have a war again. I wish you good luck that you are not in the Balkans at this point, because you never know when it is you who is suddenly part of a minority (e.g. Serbs who came from abroad), or somebody thinks you are. This is a culture of hate and exclusion and you should seriously ask yourself if this does not need some improvement.
SCP. With regards to your comments regarding the Deep South of the USA and Gay Pride. I am a Gay southerner from Alabama. Over 300,000 attended the Gay Pride parade in Houston. Atlanta, Birmingham, Memphis, Nashville have large Gay Pride Parades. Even smaller Southern Cities like Greenville, Augusta, and Mobile have them.
The only reason Gays in the Deep South have rights is that we don't let the state nullify our rights because we are unpopular. Not too long ago, Alabama was like Belgrade is today, where violent thugs, with the tacit approval of the state/police, used terrorism/violence to stop minorities from exercising their rights. In Belgrade today, the police/Interior Ministry is apparently allowing those that seek to threaten or use physical violence to silence minorities (e.g., terrorism) to profit from those threats or violence. No one has gone to jail for the past violence in Belgrade. Apparently, violence, not the rule of law is the defacto arbiter of life in Serbia. We shall see if the Parade goes forward or if Serbia is still a state ruled by mob violence and a police force that is incompetent and/or unwilling to do their jobs.
No SCP UK, you are wrong. It is connected. History shows that states fail at some point, if they do not provide for everyone sufficient mechanisms to participate and shape the future of their society (economy is part of the societies life). Democracy is about using as much eyes, ears, minds and opinions as possible. This makes a country strong in the long run.
You must give those a voice who suffer from society. Either if it is because they are constantly beaten up and suffer from their families because they are gay, because they are kicked out of their homes with violence as in the case of Roma, or their neighbours spy on them and they are victims of the secret services as in the case of Yugoslavia. Democracy is not a self-runner, it constanly needs to be protected and small undemocratic things can easily develop into a disaster.
Check the history of Germany. They had democracy after WWI, but it was not so important for the people, it was not internalised. Economy broke and people started to get radical. The majority (well, nobody knows if there was a majority after 1933, because there were not elections anymore) did not care about minority rights and the society became less liberal. Well, the rest is history (and the result was not economic success). After the war, the society started to open itself again and it became one of the most creative and competitive in the world (plus economic success). Nationalism and suppression always lead into disaster.
@Danilo, culture can't just 'be changed', and it shouldn't be. For such a small group of gays to expect a culture to change is very selfish. They can live in peace, but they do not need to parade.
I don't think a dogmatic nut like yourself has any right to tell others that they spew poison.
"Religion is the answer"
-Actually there is evidence in many prehistoric societies who did not yet develop fully constructing religious institutions.But anyway, a raving fool like yourself would not understand that what I am trying to say is that YOU DONT NEED THE CHURCH OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION TO ACCEPT MARRIAGE IF IT IS CIVIL....Okay?
You also they that only the catholic church is responsible for acts of abuse.I guess pahomije and Arsic are just exemptions huh?The thing is that I actually don't per se mind priests,I don't mind faith,I have many friends who have faith.I hate religion in its real meaning,and idiots like yourself.You can believe in the spaghetti monster all your like.Does not mean you have to impose it on other people.
As a christian however i would like to ask you then how do you reconcile in your good book the close proximity between one the one hand talking about peace and on the other hand condoning mass genocide?I as an atheist have no problem with it what so ever because i don't believe in such nonsense.
Anyway the point which I was trying to make is that its not the gays who are forcing their lifestyle on you,far from it ,YOUR ideology is oppressing them.you knowing that you could not make an answer to my point did not bring it up in your reply.
Don't worry about me spewing crap,you nationalist right-tards do that just fine.
So you have now turned to spewing crap to justify your argument. You effectivey accuse me of thinking that "a church official abusing a little boy,no thats okay!", for the record I think such acts are an abomonation and should recieve maximum punishment, as well as excommunication from the church. Anyway I worship at the Serbian Orthodox Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, that is something they take part in and be careful before accusing Serbian Orthodox of this, our priests are allowed to marry and procreate as is natural, Catholic priests are strangely barred from this. Oh and well done for pointing out what civil marriage is, I know fully well what it is, but would you care to tell me where civil marriage was derived from? Religion is the answer, incase you cant work it out.
There's nothing special about "culture" that suddenly makes something immune to criticism. It was once American culture to have slaves. It's part of Saudi culture that women shouldn't drive or vote. Because it's part of its culture, that doesn't make it immune to criticism.
If a culture includes oppression, then that culture needs to change - for everyone's good.
@Observer, for you to say that countries are richer when they protect gay rights is an absolute joke, it is coincidental. If Serbia's government and people suddenly turned around and supported gay rights, Serbia wouldn't get richer, people would be as poor as they are now. It does matter what the majority think, for example a gay parade is planned in San Francisco it will be heavily supported, but in the deep south of the USA it won't be because of public opinion. Serbia is alien to liberal mindset which it has never experienced, this also being the reason why the majority in such a controversy is important and must be regarded.
@Danilo, the gay cause isn't just an issue, rather a huge cultral controversy. The problem is that you have no conception of culture and tradition. In places like Britain where culture has withered away, which is why they accept such a thing. Also you comparing this to the Kurds in Turkey is ridiculous, firstly that is an issue of national minority which is completely different.
@Tom in Lazybrook, your plans would only hurt your campaign even further, this would cause only more violence to erupt and the government will be forced to side with those anti the parade to keep order. For you to call Serbia a failed state is also a joke, you come from the USA which is nothing but a melting pot of immigrants which bombs others into submission. Serbia has existed for not far off a thousand years in which our culture and tradition has built up, hardly failed.
"Gays are free to travel to Brighton in the UK or San Fransisco and indulge in sick gay acts there, not in Serbia though."
No No,that's for the Priests and their congrgation of little boys.
Sorry I just have to laugh at the stupidity of your hypocrisy.You are truly the emblem of nationalist ignorance.Wow gays kiss in public sometimes!What a horrible act.but a church official abusing a little boy,no thats okay!I am not for the pride myself,I think that needs a cap put on in my opinion.But my friend.As for your (wrong) belief that marriage is sololy a religious concept,there is this thing called CIVIL marriage,conducted by the state.You might have missed it,it's an idea around in the world for lets say... 200 YEARS!
"They",as it were, are not forcing ANYTHING on you.YOUR ideology and its friends, are forcing REPRESSION on THEM.In case you are planning to call me a disgusting supporter of homoerotic sadism just read my previous comment.
Peggy,I am not by any means singling out Serbia as a beacon of ignorance (SCPUK does that himself just fine).I love my country very much,and thats why I hate to see the poison of nationalist right wing backwardness seeping through Serbia's veins.There were three great problems for us :Disctatorship under Tito,the nationalist bullc&%p of the 90's and the neoliberal garbage we have today.
I hope therefore that we will one day get ourselves out of this quagmire by going on another, better path.
I think Belgrade Pride should simply announce that they'll apply to hold the parade the next Saturday on the streets of Central Belgrade if the Serbian authorities give in to threats by cancelling the parade again. Let the Serbian government have to deal with this every weekend until Gay Serbians have the right to peacefully protest under the rainbow flag in their national capital. Why are thugs still free in Serbia after being convicted of violence in the past? What actions, if any, have the Serbian authorities taken in the last two years to ensure that LGBT Serbians can peacefully protest on the streets of their national capital? How can Serbia claim to be anything other than a failed state if mobs of enraged violent thugs run amok all over the streets of its capital?
I didn't miss your point and you didn't answer my questions.
You could well say of any oppressed minority, "why should we address their concerns when the majority thinks otherwise". That's what makes them an oppressed minority and is proof that they have concerns to be aired.
I mean listen to yourself. You're telling people (in a country that you don't live in), that they should leave the country!
While we're at it, why don't those damned Kurds just go to America?! After all, the majority of Turks don't want to listen to their concerns.
Gavrilo Princip believed in the freedom of all Slavic people, not just heterosexuals.
(brian, 23 September 2012 05:44)
============================
First of all Brian, I agree that all people should be treated equally and I have no problem with gays or a parade.
BUT, please don't bring in Gavrilo Princip into this. I haven't read anything about his advocating anything for gays.
I really don't think he even had gays on his mind. If you have any quotes by him discussing gays then please send a link.
If you want to make a point then do so with your own words or a quote from someone.
You dont want the parade? LET THESE PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHS!To marry,to adopt kids etc. Its not about being pro gay or anything like that ,its about being pro HUMAN.Marriage means the bond of two people,nothing more,nothing less.
==========================
Lazar, please come to Australia and make that speech in our parliament here.
They just had a debate about that in parliament and the majority has rejected the bill for gays to be able to marry.
It is not just the Orthodox church which is opposed to this. It is all churches, temples and mosques.
I don't agree with them but if you are going to have a go at someone, don't just single the Orthodox church out.
Here is a link to the article.
We are a democratic country here and hold a gay parade but we still can't legalize gay marriages.
What do you expect Serbia to do then? There are a lot of countries which need to step into the 21st century.
SCP UK,
of course it makes them angy. But this shows only how far Serbia is still away from being a consolidated democracy.
As previously mentioned, democracy does not mean that a majority can enforce their will on minorities. People have to learn that minorities and expressions of any kind have to be respected.
You think this is of minor importance? I can tell you that it is nationalism and narrow minded extremism that drove the Balkans into war and those are also the reasons for slow recovery. A country can not progress in the long run if it suppresses its minorities. You can not simply develop the economy and then the society. This process needs to go hand in hand.
While you were talking about money:
If you compare the openness, tolerance and laws of European countries with their GDP per capita, you will see that the most tolerant societies with the best minority rights and the strongest enforcement of basic rights are the richest countries.
It is countries such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and others with strong democracies, highest rates in press freedom and minority rights that are economically sucessfull. On the other hand you have Moldova, Belarus, Russia, and others which do not progress, because they do not provide basic democratic rights to their people. And please, before you or anyone starts to defend the Russian system: subtract Russia's massively increasing oil exports from Russia's GDP. There was no -zero- progress in the last four years.
Once again Danilo you have missed the point as to what im saying. I am explaining why the parade makes the majority of Serbs angry. First of all we have the fact that the vast majority of people find it abhorent, and the parade therefore grossly offends the vast majority. The second issue which I'll highlight again, is that there are people who are in need of financial help by the state, hard workers who have trouble providing the most basic needs, yet gays are prioritised over them as if the issue of gay pride is a more important then people living in poverty. So anger boils where the poor are disregarded, but the state uses the money of taxpayers to organise a parade manily consisting of foreign gays to flaunt their perversion on to the streets. Gays have rights in Serbia, they can work, go to the shops, vote and live peacefully like anyone else, but there is no reason why a gay person needs to shout about their sexuality, and to rub it in the face of the majority who find it offensive. A gay person doesn't need to parade their gayness, it isn't necessity, and there are norms in Serbia which they have to respect. The Orthodox Church is biggest faith in Serbia which is opposed to such things, gays shouldn't have the right to marry for example, it is a religious institution which excludes gays, and rightly so, it also excludes cousins marrying, for example. Gays are free to travel to Brighton in the UK or San Fransisco and indulge in sick gay acts there, not in Serbia though.
"Absolutely, when the majority of the people don't want it, why have it?"
So if a majority of people agreed that women should have no rights then it should be passed through then ? You see in a democracy there are things such as issues and rights.Rights are entitled to everyone even when others might not like it.The slaveowners might not like living in a society where there are no slaves,but tough.Issues such as national security,economics and so one can be discussed because these are not rights.Thats why rights are UNIVERSAL.
So, SPCUK, you are basically saying that it's immoral to advocate for the right of free assembly in Serbia because a lot of Serbians live in poverty.
So, what would be the appropriate time for there to be the right of free assembly, in your eyes? What metric would you use? average salary? unemployment rate? GDP?
It is nice to see Serbia show the world our Mediaeval values. We're just as bad as some of these hardline Islamic states. And the reason this parade can't go ahead is down to security issues aka so many of our fellow citizens are so intolerant of others, they'd attack them. It makes you think, who are the real disgusting and vile people?
Of course there are the arguments of the morality of the parade, I am on the side which agrees it is immoral, but there is another issue at hand here.
There are a huge amount of people in Serbia who struggle on a day to day basis simply to provide for their families, and welfare is extremely low in helping people desperately in need. Yet the gay community which is absolutely tiny recieves masses of investment for their disgusting parade, a parade which is attented mostly by foreign gay activists, domestic ones being in a small minority. This is a genuine injustice, this tiny sect of people recieves so much funding just to flaunt their sickness, where as people genuinely in need in great numbers could do with the financial help. So do you get why people are so angry? Its simple, first the vast majority think its abhorent, and secondly they see their pathetic government being ordered by the west to finance such an abomination.
I would be interested to see any reasonable responses to that fact, rather than any attacks on myself by the western leaning neo-liberal brigade on this site.
"This is what they call democracy and human rights in Serbia... rlr2"
roberto
Where were your comments when there was a similar article about gay rights lacking in Croatia? And what about your native country of Bosnia? I don't hear about any planed gay parades there? You are a hypocrite. No wonder bosnian serbs don't want anything to do with you muslims. People like you make me sick. Freedom for Republika Srpska!!!
Serbian politicians are just using the security issue as an excuse. The Serbian Orthodox Church is very homophobic and it has a lot of influence over politicians in Serbia.
Gavrilo Princip believed in the freedom of all Slavic people, not just heterosexuals.
Zoran, I've been to Belgrade several times, so I've seen the contrast. All of the most beautiful cities I've seen have thriving gay communities that hold a Pride parade every year and no one suffers. People who don't wish to see the more flamboyant demonstrations simply look or stay away. There is no intent to harm or offend anyone on the part of the participants; they're simply celebrating the fact that they can live much more freely in the open nowadays. In some places, they can even marry and enjoy all the partner benefits that straight couples get. No matter how offensive some may find these parades, a government that declares itself committed to upholding the civil rights of minorities must be willing to both allow the parades to go forward and to allocate the resources necessary to protect the participants from violent right wing thugs. I understand that costs money, but that's the price of social progress. Over time, everyone becomes more tolerant of the situation, and hooligans show up in ever diminishing numbers. Maybe you even get a forward-thinking education ministry that starts teaching children the science of homosexuality, and keeps religious dogma out of the classroom.
Nenad...shame on you. im thick skulled? or ur pathetic? Who gave you the right to say that if a majority of people that dont agree w homosexuality need to agree. ive been to san fran..its damn disguisting..but guess what i choose not to go back. im in serbia and rep srpska always..ppl are great. But they dont accept homosexuality..and tht makes them bad? grow up. i dont agree w muslim values..and choose not to live in iran or afghanistan. so what? i need to go there..and force chane upon a people. Not everywhere is america..grow up. ive traveled the world. Not everyone has the same beliefs and values..and u have to respect that. Or else u are the uneducated one
Sorry to sometimes bring the Right in our beloved Serbia out of the stone age but I am afraid they have to grow up ,like all children do.
You dont want the parade? LET THESE PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHS!To marry,to adopt kids etc. Its not about being pro gay or anything like that ,its about being pro HUMAN.Marriage means the bond of two people,nothing more,nothing less.
I love it how the religious cretins,especially in the church like to splutter their poison to others about morality.They are the most corrupt organization involved in sexual scandals in Serbia to this day!There is hardly ever Anyone who railles against the "abominable sickness of the gay threat" care to mention that?
When these idiots in government try to react to this they call of the police,DONT seperate the gay demonstrators from the anti gay demonstrators.They ban Dveri and Obraz and think that will solve something.No!You dont have to ban anyone.If you dont want the protests,aknowledge peoples natural rights.
- it should be defended.
(Bob)
-
The parade is not about freedom of expression, it's about replicating what MTV promotes for/about gays. Serbia's homosexuals are different than the fruit cakes we see in North America, this goes for Balkans overall.
We already have many reasons to unite, the rainbow flag is not one of them. We will move forward together under one flag if any, and that's the flag of Serbia and none else.
Better yet, book a trip to New York, San Francisco or Boston, and see for yourself just how awful gays are for society. I guarantee you, you'll never wish to set foot in a city like Belgrade, Nis or Podgorica again.
(Nenad, 22 September 2012 18:43)
--
Nenad, I'd suggest you book a trip and visit Belgrade before you say something like that. Belgrade is a great city and it has a strong soul.
Serbia has its gays, who are visible in society. They have their clubs and live relatively freely. The issue here is about a gay parade and there are many who understandably find that obscene.
The issue here is that it has become political. You see, anti-western feelings are strong here and seeing that the west is attempting to push this through makes it even worse for gay people.
Clearly, the platform isn't the same. Countries like Russia, Serbia and Croatia will always be second rate in Europe because they just won't modernize in this sense. Whenever a homophobe like you or Lenard opens his mouth to say something offensive about gays, you're like that idiot at the party who thinks he's oh so funny and clever, when meanwhile, everyone smiling back at him is just thinking how pathetic a creature he is. I'm sure this little lecture I'm giving you has little hope of penetrating your thick skull, but just in case you might suddenly wake up in 20 years and remember what your friend Nenad told you once upon a time on B92.
Better yet, book a trip to New York, San Francisco or Boston, and see for yourself just how awful gays are for society. I guarantee you, you'll never wish to set foot in a city like Belgrade, Nis or Podgorica again.
Good, cancel it. There is no place for this in Serbia. I dont care if every single one of you see this as some freedom, its not, its a sickness. Proud to see Serbia keeping its morals and values higher, than homosexuals looking to march around for what reason? Keep it to yourself, and be gay. but understand the platform isnt the same all over the world.
Ari Gold will be so disappointed he had his make up all ready and the cutest but a-s costume ready to go it is just not fair. Ari come to Croatia the police will beat the moral protesters so you can parade your but ass costume and grab your private parts all the benefits of the immoral EU on your side.
It will be canceled, Marković told Belgrade-based Prva TV, "for security reasons."
I didn't expect anything else. But well, just like the west is giving in to violent Islamist extremists and cancels campaigns and bans movies and cartoons, the Serbian government is giving in to violent hooligans and nationalist extremists and cancels the pride parade.
It will be canceled, Marković told Belgrade-based Prva TV, "for security reasons."
I didn't expect anything else. But well, just like the west is giving in to violent Islamist extremists and cancels campaigns and bans movies and cartoons, the Serbian government is giving in to violent hooligans and nationalist extremists and cancels the pride parade.
Sorry to sometimes bring the Right in our beloved Serbia out of the stone age but I am afraid they have to grow up ,like all children do.
You dont want the parade? LET THESE PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHS!To marry,to adopt kids etc. Its not about being pro gay or anything like that ,its about being pro HUMAN.Marriage means the bond of two people,nothing more,nothing less.
I love it how the religious cretins,especially in the church like to splutter their poison to others about morality.They are the most corrupt organization involved in sexual scandals in Serbia to this day!There is hardly ever Anyone who railles against the "abominable sickness of the gay threat" care to mention that?
When these idiots in government try to react to this they call of the police,DONT seperate the gay demonstrators from the anti gay demonstrators.They ban Dveri and Obraz and think that will solve something.No!You dont have to ban anyone.If you dont want the protests,aknowledge peoples natural rights.
Clearly, the platform isn't the same. Countries like Russia, Serbia and Croatia will always be second rate in Europe because they just won't modernize in this sense. Whenever a homophobe like you or Lenard opens his mouth to say something offensive about gays, you're like that idiot at the party who thinks he's oh so funny and clever, when meanwhile, everyone smiling back at him is just thinking how pathetic a creature he is. I'm sure this little lecture I'm giving you has little hope of penetrating your thick skull, but just in case you might suddenly wake up in 20 years and remember what your friend Nenad told you once upon a time on B92.
Better yet, book a trip to New York, San Francisco or Boston, and see for yourself just how awful gays are for society. I guarantee you, you'll never wish to set foot in a city like Belgrade, Nis or Podgorica again.
Ari Gold will be so disappointed he had his make up all ready and the cutest but a-s costume ready to go it is just not fair. Ari come to Croatia the police will beat the moral protesters so you can parade your but ass costume and grab your private parts all the benefits of the immoral EU on your side.
It is nice to see Serbia show the world our Mediaeval values. We're just as bad as some of these hardline Islamic states. And the reason this parade can't go ahead is down to security issues aka so many of our fellow citizens are so intolerant of others, they'd attack them. It makes you think, who are the real disgusting and vile people?
Good, cancel it. There is no place for this in Serbia. I dont care if every single one of you see this as some freedom, its not, its a sickness. Proud to see Serbia keeping its morals and values higher, than homosexuals looking to march around for what reason? Keep it to yourself, and be gay. but understand the platform isnt the same all over the world.
"Absolutely, when the majority of the people don't want it, why have it?"
So if a majority of people agreed that women should have no rights then it should be passed through then ? You see in a democracy there are things such as issues and rights.Rights are entitled to everyone even when others might not like it.The slaveowners might not like living in a society where there are no slaves,but tough.Issues such as national security,economics and so one can be discussed because these are not rights.Thats why rights are UNIVERSAL.
- it should be defended.
(Bob)
-
The parade is not about freedom of expression, it's about replicating what MTV promotes for/about gays. Serbia's homosexuals are different than the fruit cakes we see in North America, this goes for Balkans overall.
We already have many reasons to unite, the rainbow flag is not one of them. We will move forward together under one flag if any, and that's the flag of Serbia and none else.
Better yet, book a trip to New York, San Francisco or Boston, and see for yourself just how awful gays are for society. I guarantee you, you'll never wish to set foot in a city like Belgrade, Nis or Podgorica again.
(Nenad, 22 September 2012 18:43)
--
Nenad, I'd suggest you book a trip and visit Belgrade before you say something like that. Belgrade is a great city and it has a strong soul.
Serbia has its gays, who are visible in society. They have their clubs and live relatively freely. The issue here is about a gay parade and there are many who understandably find that obscene.
The issue here is that it has become political. You see, anti-western feelings are strong here and seeing that the west is attempting to push this through makes it even worse for gay people.
Zoran, I've been to Belgrade several times, so I've seen the contrast. All of the most beautiful cities I've seen have thriving gay communities that hold a Pride parade every year and no one suffers. People who don't wish to see the more flamboyant demonstrations simply look or stay away. There is no intent to harm or offend anyone on the part of the participants; they're simply celebrating the fact that they can live much more freely in the open nowadays. In some places, they can even marry and enjoy all the partner benefits that straight couples get. No matter how offensive some may find these parades, a government that declares itself committed to upholding the civil rights of minorities must be willing to both allow the parades to go forward and to allocate the resources necessary to protect the participants from violent right wing thugs. I understand that costs money, but that's the price of social progress. Over time, everyone becomes more tolerant of the situation, and hooligans show up in ever diminishing numbers. Maybe you even get a forward-thinking education ministry that starts teaching children the science of homosexuality, and keeps religious dogma out of the classroom.
Serbian politicians are just using the security issue as an excuse. The Serbian Orthodox Church is very homophobic and it has a lot of influence over politicians in Serbia.
Gavrilo Princip believed in the freedom of all Slavic people, not just heterosexuals.
SCP UK,
of course it makes them angy. But this shows only how far Serbia is still away from being a consolidated democracy.
As previously mentioned, democracy does not mean that a majority can enforce their will on minorities. People have to learn that minorities and expressions of any kind have to be respected.
You think this is of minor importance? I can tell you that it is nationalism and narrow minded extremism that drove the Balkans into war and those are also the reasons for slow recovery. A country can not progress in the long run if it suppresses its minorities. You can not simply develop the economy and then the society. This process needs to go hand in hand.
While you were talking about money:
If you compare the openness, tolerance and laws of European countries with their GDP per capita, you will see that the most tolerant societies with the best minority rights and the strongest enforcement of basic rights are the richest countries.
It is countries such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and others with strong democracies, highest rates in press freedom and minority rights that are economically sucessfull. On the other hand you have Moldova, Belarus, Russia, and others which do not progress, because they do not provide basic democratic rights to their people. And please, before you or anyone starts to defend the Russian system: subtract Russia's massively increasing oil exports from Russia's GDP. There was no -zero- progress in the last four years.
So, SPCUK, you are basically saying that it's immoral to advocate for the right of free assembly in Serbia because a lot of Serbians live in poverty.
So, what would be the appropriate time for there to be the right of free assembly, in your eyes? What metric would you use? average salary? unemployment rate? GDP?
I think Belgrade Pride should simply announce that they'll apply to hold the parade the next Saturday on the streets of Central Belgrade if the Serbian authorities give in to threats by cancelling the parade again. Let the Serbian government have to deal with this every weekend until Gay Serbians have the right to peacefully protest under the rainbow flag in their national capital. Why are thugs still free in Serbia after being convicted of violence in the past? What actions, if any, have the Serbian authorities taken in the last two years to ensure that LGBT Serbians can peacefully protest on the streets of their national capital? How can Serbia claim to be anything other than a failed state if mobs of enraged violent thugs run amok all over the streets of its capital?
No SCP UK, you are wrong. It is connected. History shows that states fail at some point, if they do not provide for everyone sufficient mechanisms to participate and shape the future of their society (economy is part of the societies life). Democracy is about using as much eyes, ears, minds and opinions as possible. This makes a country strong in the long run.
You must give those a voice who suffer from society. Either if it is because they are constantly beaten up and suffer from their families because they are gay, because they are kicked out of their homes with violence as in the case of Roma, or their neighbours spy on them and they are victims of the secret services as in the case of Yugoslavia. Democracy is not a self-runner, it constanly needs to be protected and small undemocratic things can easily develop into a disaster.
Check the history of Germany. They had democracy after WWI, but it was not so important for the people, it was not internalised. Economy broke and people started to get radical. The majority (well, nobody knows if there was a majority after 1933, because there were not elections anymore) did not care about minority rights and the society became less liberal. Well, the rest is history (and the result was not economic success). After the war, the society started to open itself again and it became one of the most creative and competitive in the world (plus economic success). Nationalism and suppression always lead into disaster.
"Gays are free to travel to Brighton in the UK or San Fransisco and indulge in sick gay acts there, not in Serbia though."
No No,that's for the Priests and their congrgation of little boys.
Sorry I just have to laugh at the stupidity of your hypocrisy.You are truly the emblem of nationalist ignorance.Wow gays kiss in public sometimes!What a horrible act.but a church official abusing a little boy,no thats okay!I am not for the pride myself,I think that needs a cap put on in my opinion.But my friend.As for your (wrong) belief that marriage is sololy a religious concept,there is this thing called CIVIL marriage,conducted by the state.You might have missed it,it's an idea around in the world for lets say... 200 YEARS!
"They",as it were, are not forcing ANYTHING on you.YOUR ideology and its friends, are forcing REPRESSION on THEM.In case you are planning to call me a disgusting supporter of homoerotic sadism just read my previous comment.
Peggy,I am not by any means singling out Serbia as a beacon of ignorance (SCPUK does that himself just fine).I love my country very much,and thats why I hate to see the poison of nationalist right wing backwardness seeping through Serbia's veins.There were three great problems for us :Disctatorship under Tito,the nationalist bullc&%p of the 90's and the neoliberal garbage we have today.
I hope therefore that we will one day get ourselves out of this quagmire by going on another, better path.
SCP. With regards to your comments regarding the Deep South of the USA and Gay Pride. I am a Gay southerner from Alabama. Over 300,000 attended the Gay Pride parade in Houston. Atlanta, Birmingham, Memphis, Nashville have large Gay Pride Parades. Even smaller Southern Cities like Greenville, Augusta, and Mobile have them.
The only reason Gays in the Deep South have rights is that we don't let the state nullify our rights because we are unpopular. Not too long ago, Alabama was like Belgrade is today, where violent thugs, with the tacit approval of the state/police, used terrorism/violence to stop minorities from exercising their rights. In Belgrade today, the police/Interior Ministry is apparently allowing those that seek to threaten or use physical violence to silence minorities (e.g., terrorism) to profit from those threats or violence. No one has gone to jail for the past violence in Belgrade. Apparently, violence, not the rule of law is the defacto arbiter of life in Serbia. We shall see if the Parade goes forward or if Serbia is still a state ruled by mob violence and a police force that is incompetent and/or unwilling to do their jobs.
Nenad...shame on you. im thick skulled? or ur pathetic? Who gave you the right to say that if a majority of people that dont agree w homosexuality need to agree. ive been to san fran..its damn disguisting..but guess what i choose not to go back. im in serbia and rep srpska always..ppl are great. But they dont accept homosexuality..and tht makes them bad? grow up. i dont agree w muslim values..and choose not to live in iran or afghanistan. so what? i need to go there..and force chane upon a people. Not everywhere is america..grow up. ive traveled the world. Not everyone has the same beliefs and values..and u have to respect that. Or else u are the uneducated one
"This is what they call democracy and human rights in Serbia... rlr2"
roberto
Where were your comments when there was a similar article about gay rights lacking in Croatia? And what about your native country of Bosnia? I don't hear about any planed gay parades there? You are a hypocrite. No wonder bosnian serbs don't want anything to do with you muslims. People like you make me sick. Freedom for Republika Srpska!!!
Of course there are the arguments of the morality of the parade, I am on the side which agrees it is immoral, but there is another issue at hand here.
There are a huge amount of people in Serbia who struggle on a day to day basis simply to provide for their families, and welfare is extremely low in helping people desperately in need. Yet the gay community which is absolutely tiny recieves masses of investment for their disgusting parade, a parade which is attented mostly by foreign gay activists, domestic ones being in a small minority. This is a genuine injustice, this tiny sect of people recieves so much funding just to flaunt their sickness, where as people genuinely in need in great numbers could do with the financial help. So do you get why people are so angry? Its simple, first the vast majority think its abhorent, and secondly they see their pathetic government being ordered by the west to finance such an abomination.
I would be interested to see any reasonable responses to that fact, rather than any attacks on myself by the western leaning neo-liberal brigade on this site.
I didn't miss your point and you didn't answer my questions.
You could well say of any oppressed minority, "why should we address their concerns when the majority thinks otherwise". That's what makes them an oppressed minority and is proof that they have concerns to be aired.
I mean listen to yourself. You're telling people (in a country that you don't live in), that they should leave the country!
While we're at it, why don't those damned Kurds just go to America?! After all, the majority of Turks don't want to listen to their concerns.
Once again Danilo you have missed the point as to what im saying. I am explaining why the parade makes the majority of Serbs angry. First of all we have the fact that the vast majority of people find it abhorent, and the parade therefore grossly offends the vast majority. The second issue which I'll highlight again, is that there are people who are in need of financial help by the state, hard workers who have trouble providing the most basic needs, yet gays are prioritised over them as if the issue of gay pride is a more important then people living in poverty. So anger boils where the poor are disregarded, but the state uses the money of taxpayers to organise a parade manily consisting of foreign gays to flaunt their perversion on to the streets. Gays have rights in Serbia, they can work, go to the shops, vote and live peacefully like anyone else, but there is no reason why a gay person needs to shout about their sexuality, and to rub it in the face of the majority who find it offensive. A gay person doesn't need to parade their gayness, it isn't necessity, and there are norms in Serbia which they have to respect. The Orthodox Church is biggest faith in Serbia which is opposed to such things, gays shouldn't have the right to marry for example, it is a religious institution which excludes gays, and rightly so, it also excludes cousins marrying, for example. Gays are free to travel to Brighton in the UK or San Fransisco and indulge in sick gay acts there, not in Serbia though.
Gavrilo Princip believed in the freedom of all Slavic people, not just heterosexuals.
(brian, 23 September 2012 05:44)
============================
First of all Brian, I agree that all people should be treated equally and I have no problem with gays or a parade.
BUT, please don't bring in Gavrilo Princip into this. I haven't read anything about his advocating anything for gays.
I really don't think he even had gays on his mind. If you have any quotes by him discussing gays then please send a link.
If you want to make a point then do so with your own words or a quote from someone.
You dont want the parade? LET THESE PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHS!To marry,to adopt kids etc. Its not about being pro gay or anything like that ,its about being pro HUMAN.Marriage means the bond of two people,nothing more,nothing less.
==========================
Lazar, please come to Australia and make that speech in our parliament here.
They just had a debate about that in parliament and the majority has rejected the bill for gays to be able to marry.
It is not just the Orthodox church which is opposed to this. It is all churches, temples and mosques.
I don't agree with them but if you are going to have a go at someone, don't just single the Orthodox church out.
Here is a link to the article.
We are a democratic country here and hold a gay parade but we still can't legalize gay marriages.
What do you expect Serbia to do then? There are a lot of countries which need to step into the 21st century.
There's nothing special about "culture" that suddenly makes something immune to criticism. It was once American culture to have slaves. It's part of Saudi culture that women shouldn't drive or vote. Because it's part of its culture, that doesn't make it immune to criticism.
If a culture includes oppression, then that culture needs to change - for everyone's good.
@SCP UK: No they can not live in peace. Plus, they group is not as small as you might think.
What a respectful and great culture that discriminates minorities, suppresses parts of its society, treats those groups with violence and excludes them from society. What a lovely environment to raise your children. No surprise for me that so many are leaving the Balkans.
You really don't get it, today it is the gays, the Roma, , the women, the Albanians, the whatever, and tomorrow you have a war again. I wish you good luck that you are not in the Balkans at this point, because you never know when it is you who is suddenly part of a minority (e.g. Serbs who came from abroad), or somebody thinks you are. This is a culture of hate and exclusion and you should seriously ask yourself if this does not need some improvement.
@Observer, for you to say that countries are richer when they protect gay rights is an absolute joke, it is coincidental. If Serbia's government and people suddenly turned around and supported gay rights, Serbia wouldn't get richer, people would be as poor as they are now. It does matter what the majority think, for example a gay parade is planned in San Francisco it will be heavily supported, but in the deep south of the USA it won't be because of public opinion. Serbia is alien to liberal mindset which it has never experienced, this also being the reason why the majority in such a controversy is important and must be regarded.
@Danilo, the gay cause isn't just an issue, rather a huge cultral controversy. The problem is that you have no conception of culture and tradition. In places like Britain where culture has withered away, which is why they accept such a thing. Also you comparing this to the Kurds in Turkey is ridiculous, firstly that is an issue of national minority which is completely different.
@Tom in Lazybrook, your plans would only hurt your campaign even further, this would cause only more violence to erupt and the government will be forced to side with those anti the parade to keep order. For you to call Serbia a failed state is also a joke, you come from the USA which is nothing but a melting pot of immigrants which bombs others into submission. Serbia has existed for not far off a thousand years in which our culture and tradition has built up, hardly failed.
So you have now turned to spewing crap to justify your argument. You effectivey accuse me of thinking that "a church official abusing a little boy,no thats okay!", for the record I think such acts are an abomonation and should recieve maximum punishment, as well as excommunication from the church. Anyway I worship at the Serbian Orthodox Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, that is something they take part in and be careful before accusing Serbian Orthodox of this, our priests are allowed to marry and procreate as is natural, Catholic priests are strangely barred from this. Oh and well done for pointing out what civil marriage is, I know fully well what it is, but would you care to tell me where civil marriage was derived from? Religion is the answer, incase you cant work it out.
I don't think a dogmatic nut like yourself has any right to tell others that they spew poison.
"Religion is the answer"
-Actually there is evidence in many prehistoric societies who did not yet develop fully constructing religious institutions.But anyway, a raving fool like yourself would not understand that what I am trying to say is that YOU DONT NEED THE CHURCH OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION TO ACCEPT MARRIAGE IF IT IS CIVIL....Okay?
You also they that only the catholic church is responsible for acts of abuse.I guess pahomije and Arsic are just exemptions huh?The thing is that I actually don't per se mind priests,I don't mind faith,I have many friends who have faith.I hate religion in its real meaning,and idiots like yourself.You can believe in the spaghetti monster all your like.Does not mean you have to impose it on other people.
As a christian however i would like to ask you then how do you reconcile in your good book the close proximity between one the one hand talking about peace and on the other hand condoning mass genocide?I as an atheist have no problem with it what so ever because i don't believe in such nonsense.
Anyway the point which I was trying to make is that its not the gays who are forcing their lifestyle on you,far from it ,YOUR ideology is oppressing them.you knowing that you could not make an answer to my point did not bring it up in your reply.
Don't worry about me spewing crap,you nationalist right-tards do that just fine.
@Danilo, culture can't just 'be changed', and it shouldn't be. For such a small group of gays to expect a culture to change is very selfish. They can live in peace, but they do not need to parade.
Ari Gold will be so disappointed he had his make up all ready and the cutest but a-s costume ready to go it is just not fair. Ari come to Croatia the police will beat the moral protesters so you can parade your but ass costume and grab your private parts all the benefits of the immoral EU on your side.
Good, cancel it. There is no place for this in Serbia. I dont care if every single one of you see this as some freedom, its not, its a sickness. Proud to see Serbia keeping its morals and values higher, than homosexuals looking to march around for what reason? Keep it to yourself, and be gay. but understand the platform isnt the same all over the world.
It will be canceled, Marković told Belgrade-based Prva TV, "for security reasons."
I didn't expect anything else. But well, just like the west is giving in to violent Islamist extremists and cancels campaigns and bans movies and cartoons, the Serbian government is giving in to violent hooligans and nationalist extremists and cancels the pride parade.
- it should be defended.
(Bob)
-
The parade is not about freedom of expression, it's about replicating what MTV promotes for/about gays. Serbia's homosexuals are different than the fruit cakes we see in North America, this goes for Balkans overall.
We already have many reasons to unite, the rainbow flag is not one of them. We will move forward together under one flag if any, and that's the flag of Serbia and none else.
Clearly, the platform isn't the same. Countries like Russia, Serbia and Croatia will always be second rate in Europe because they just won't modernize in this sense. Whenever a homophobe like you or Lenard opens his mouth to say something offensive about gays, you're like that idiot at the party who thinks he's oh so funny and clever, when meanwhile, everyone smiling back at him is just thinking how pathetic a creature he is. I'm sure this little lecture I'm giving you has little hope of penetrating your thick skull, but just in case you might suddenly wake up in 20 years and remember what your friend Nenad told you once upon a time on B92.
Better yet, book a trip to New York, San Francisco or Boston, and see for yourself just how awful gays are for society. I guarantee you, you'll never wish to set foot in a city like Belgrade, Nis or Podgorica again.
Sorry to sometimes bring the Right in our beloved Serbia out of the stone age but I am afraid they have to grow up ,like all children do.
You dont want the parade? LET THESE PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHS!To marry,to adopt kids etc. Its not about being pro gay or anything like that ,its about being pro HUMAN.Marriage means the bond of two people,nothing more,nothing less.
I love it how the religious cretins,especially in the church like to splutter their poison to others about morality.They are the most corrupt organization involved in sexual scandals in Serbia to this day!There is hardly ever Anyone who railles against the "abominable sickness of the gay threat" care to mention that?
When these idiots in government try to react to this they call of the police,DONT seperate the gay demonstrators from the anti gay demonstrators.They ban Dveri and Obraz and think that will solve something.No!You dont have to ban anyone.If you dont want the protests,aknowledge peoples natural rights.
Better yet, book a trip to New York, San Francisco or Boston, and see for yourself just how awful gays are for society. I guarantee you, you'll never wish to set foot in a city like Belgrade, Nis or Podgorica again.
(Nenad, 22 September 2012 18:43)
--
Nenad, I'd suggest you book a trip and visit Belgrade before you say something like that. Belgrade is a great city and it has a strong soul.
Serbia has its gays, who are visible in society. They have their clubs and live relatively freely. The issue here is about a gay parade and there are many who understandably find that obscene.
The issue here is that it has become political. You see, anti-western feelings are strong here and seeing that the west is attempting to push this through makes it even worse for gay people.
Nenad...shame on you. im thick skulled? or ur pathetic? Who gave you the right to say that if a majority of people that dont agree w homosexuality need to agree. ive been to san fran..its damn disguisting..but guess what i choose not to go back. im in serbia and rep srpska always..ppl are great. But they dont accept homosexuality..and tht makes them bad? grow up. i dont agree w muslim values..and choose not to live in iran or afghanistan. so what? i need to go there..and force chane upon a people. Not everywhere is america..grow up. ive traveled the world. Not everyone has the same beliefs and values..and u have to respect that. Or else u are the uneducated one
"This is what they call democracy and human rights in Serbia... rlr2"
roberto
Where were your comments when there was a similar article about gay rights lacking in Croatia? And what about your native country of Bosnia? I don't hear about any planed gay parades there? You are a hypocrite. No wonder bosnian serbs don't want anything to do with you muslims. People like you make me sick. Freedom for Republika Srpska!!!
Of course there are the arguments of the morality of the parade, I am on the side which agrees it is immoral, but there is another issue at hand here.
There are a huge amount of people in Serbia who struggle on a day to day basis simply to provide for their families, and welfare is extremely low in helping people desperately in need. Yet the gay community which is absolutely tiny recieves masses of investment for their disgusting parade, a parade which is attented mostly by foreign gay activists, domestic ones being in a small minority. This is a genuine injustice, this tiny sect of people recieves so much funding just to flaunt their sickness, where as people genuinely in need in great numbers could do with the financial help. So do you get why people are so angry? Its simple, first the vast majority think its abhorent, and secondly they see their pathetic government being ordered by the west to finance such an abomination.
I would be interested to see any reasonable responses to that fact, rather than any attacks on myself by the western leaning neo-liberal brigade on this site.
Once again Danilo you have missed the point as to what im saying. I am explaining why the parade makes the majority of Serbs angry. First of all we have the fact that the vast majority of people find it abhorent, and the parade therefore grossly offends the vast majority. The second issue which I'll highlight again, is that there are people who are in need of financial help by the state, hard workers who have trouble providing the most basic needs, yet gays are prioritised over them as if the issue of gay pride is a more important then people living in poverty. So anger boils where the poor are disregarded, but the state uses the money of taxpayers to organise a parade manily consisting of foreign gays to flaunt their perversion on to the streets. Gays have rights in Serbia, they can work, go to the shops, vote and live peacefully like anyone else, but there is no reason why a gay person needs to shout about their sexuality, and to rub it in the face of the majority who find it offensive. A gay person doesn't need to parade their gayness, it isn't necessity, and there are norms in Serbia which they have to respect. The Orthodox Church is biggest faith in Serbia which is opposed to such things, gays shouldn't have the right to marry for example, it is a religious institution which excludes gays, and rightly so, it also excludes cousins marrying, for example. Gays are free to travel to Brighton in the UK or San Fransisco and indulge in sick gay acts there, not in Serbia though.
It is nice to see Serbia show the world our Mediaeval values. We're just as bad as some of these hardline Islamic states. And the reason this parade can't go ahead is down to security issues aka so many of our fellow citizens are so intolerant of others, they'd attack them. It makes you think, who are the real disgusting and vile people?
Serbian politicians are just using the security issue as an excuse. The Serbian Orthodox Church is very homophobic and it has a lot of influence over politicians in Serbia.
Gavrilo Princip believed in the freedom of all Slavic people, not just heterosexuals.
"Absolutely, when the majority of the people don't want it, why have it?"
So if a majority of people agreed that women should have no rights then it should be passed through then ? You see in a democracy there are things such as issues and rights.Rights are entitled to everyone even when others might not like it.The slaveowners might not like living in a society where there are no slaves,but tough.Issues such as national security,economics and so one can be discussed because these are not rights.Thats why rights are UNIVERSAL.
@Observer, for you to say that countries are richer when they protect gay rights is an absolute joke, it is coincidental. If Serbia's government and people suddenly turned around and supported gay rights, Serbia wouldn't get richer, people would be as poor as they are now. It does matter what the majority think, for example a gay parade is planned in San Francisco it will be heavily supported, but in the deep south of the USA it won't be because of public opinion. Serbia is alien to liberal mindset which it has never experienced, this also being the reason why the majority in such a controversy is important and must be regarded.
@Danilo, the gay cause isn't just an issue, rather a huge cultral controversy. The problem is that you have no conception of culture and tradition. In places like Britain where culture has withered away, which is why they accept such a thing. Also you comparing this to the Kurds in Turkey is ridiculous, firstly that is an issue of national minority which is completely different.
@Tom in Lazybrook, your plans would only hurt your campaign even further, this would cause only more violence to erupt and the government will be forced to side with those anti the parade to keep order. For you to call Serbia a failed state is also a joke, you come from the USA which is nothing but a melting pot of immigrants which bombs others into submission. Serbia has existed for not far off a thousand years in which our culture and tradition has built up, hardly failed.
@Danilo, culture can't just 'be changed', and it shouldn't be. For such a small group of gays to expect a culture to change is very selfish. They can live in peace, but they do not need to parade.
Zoran, I've been to Belgrade several times, so I've seen the contrast. All of the most beautiful cities I've seen have thriving gay communities that hold a Pride parade every year and no one suffers. People who don't wish to see the more flamboyant demonstrations simply look or stay away. There is no intent to harm or offend anyone on the part of the participants; they're simply celebrating the fact that they can live much more freely in the open nowadays. In some places, they can even marry and enjoy all the partner benefits that straight couples get. No matter how offensive some may find these parades, a government that declares itself committed to upholding the civil rights of minorities must be willing to both allow the parades to go forward and to allocate the resources necessary to protect the participants from violent right wing thugs. I understand that costs money, but that's the price of social progress. Over time, everyone becomes more tolerant of the situation, and hooligans show up in ever diminishing numbers. Maybe you even get a forward-thinking education ministry that starts teaching children the science of homosexuality, and keeps religious dogma out of the classroom.
So, SPCUK, you are basically saying that it's immoral to advocate for the right of free assembly in Serbia because a lot of Serbians live in poverty.
So, what would be the appropriate time for there to be the right of free assembly, in your eyes? What metric would you use? average salary? unemployment rate? GDP?
SCP UK,
of course it makes them angy. But this shows only how far Serbia is still away from being a consolidated democracy.
As previously mentioned, democracy does not mean that a majority can enforce their will on minorities. People have to learn that minorities and expressions of any kind have to be respected.
You think this is of minor importance? I can tell you that it is nationalism and narrow minded extremism that drove the Balkans into war and those are also the reasons for slow recovery. A country can not progress in the long run if it suppresses its minorities. You can not simply develop the economy and then the society. This process needs to go hand in hand.
While you were talking about money:
If you compare the openness, tolerance and laws of European countries with their GDP per capita, you will see that the most tolerant societies with the best minority rights and the strongest enforcement of basic rights are the richest countries.
It is countries such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and others with strong democracies, highest rates in press freedom and minority rights that are economically sucessfull. On the other hand you have Moldova, Belarus, Russia, and others which do not progress, because they do not provide basic democratic rights to their people. And please, before you or anyone starts to defend the Russian system: subtract Russia's massively increasing oil exports from Russia's GDP. There was no -zero- progress in the last four years.
I didn't miss your point and you didn't answer my questions.
You could well say of any oppressed minority, "why should we address their concerns when the majority thinks otherwise". That's what makes them an oppressed minority and is proof that they have concerns to be aired.
I mean listen to yourself. You're telling people (in a country that you don't live in), that they should leave the country!
While we're at it, why don't those damned Kurds just go to America?! After all, the majority of Turks don't want to listen to their concerns.
I think Belgrade Pride should simply announce that they'll apply to hold the parade the next Saturday on the streets of Central Belgrade if the Serbian authorities give in to threats by cancelling the parade again. Let the Serbian government have to deal with this every weekend until Gay Serbians have the right to peacefully protest under the rainbow flag in their national capital. Why are thugs still free in Serbia after being convicted of violence in the past? What actions, if any, have the Serbian authorities taken in the last two years to ensure that LGBT Serbians can peacefully protest on the streets of their national capital? How can Serbia claim to be anything other than a failed state if mobs of enraged violent thugs run amok all over the streets of its capital?
"Gays are free to travel to Brighton in the UK or San Fransisco and indulge in sick gay acts there, not in Serbia though."
No No,that's for the Priests and their congrgation of little boys.
Sorry I just have to laugh at the stupidity of your hypocrisy.You are truly the emblem of nationalist ignorance.Wow gays kiss in public sometimes!What a horrible act.but a church official abusing a little boy,no thats okay!I am not for the pride myself,I think that needs a cap put on in my opinion.But my friend.As for your (wrong) belief that marriage is sololy a religious concept,there is this thing called CIVIL marriage,conducted by the state.You might have missed it,it's an idea around in the world for lets say... 200 YEARS!
"They",as it were, are not forcing ANYTHING on you.YOUR ideology and its friends, are forcing REPRESSION on THEM.In case you are planning to call me a disgusting supporter of homoerotic sadism just read my previous comment.
Peggy,I am not by any means singling out Serbia as a beacon of ignorance (SCPUK does that himself just fine).I love my country very much,and thats why I hate to see the poison of nationalist right wing backwardness seeping through Serbia's veins.There were three great problems for us :Disctatorship under Tito,the nationalist bullc&%p of the 90's and the neoliberal garbage we have today.
I hope therefore that we will one day get ourselves out of this quagmire by going on another, better path.
There's nothing special about "culture" that suddenly makes something immune to criticism. It was once American culture to have slaves. It's part of Saudi culture that women shouldn't drive or vote. Because it's part of its culture, that doesn't make it immune to criticism.
If a culture includes oppression, then that culture needs to change - for everyone's good.
Gavrilo Princip believed in the freedom of all Slavic people, not just heterosexuals.
(brian, 23 September 2012 05:44)
============================
First of all Brian, I agree that all people should be treated equally and I have no problem with gays or a parade.
BUT, please don't bring in Gavrilo Princip into this. I haven't read anything about his advocating anything for gays.
I really don't think he even had gays on his mind. If you have any quotes by him discussing gays then please send a link.
If you want to make a point then do so with your own words or a quote from someone.
You dont want the parade? LET THESE PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHS!To marry,to adopt kids etc. Its not about being pro gay or anything like that ,its about being pro HUMAN.Marriage means the bond of two people,nothing more,nothing less.
==========================
Lazar, please come to Australia and make that speech in our parliament here.
They just had a debate about that in parliament and the majority has rejected the bill for gays to be able to marry.
It is not just the Orthodox church which is opposed to this. It is all churches, temples and mosques.
I don't agree with them but if you are going to have a go at someone, don't just single the Orthodox church out.
Here is a link to the article.
We are a democratic country here and hold a gay parade but we still can't legalize gay marriages.
What do you expect Serbia to do then? There are a lot of countries which need to step into the 21st century.
So you have now turned to spewing crap to justify your argument. You effectivey accuse me of thinking that "a church official abusing a little boy,no thats okay!", for the record I think such acts are an abomonation and should recieve maximum punishment, as well as excommunication from the church. Anyway I worship at the Serbian Orthodox Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, that is something they take part in and be careful before accusing Serbian Orthodox of this, our priests are allowed to marry and procreate as is natural, Catholic priests are strangely barred from this. Oh and well done for pointing out what civil marriage is, I know fully well what it is, but would you care to tell me where civil marriage was derived from? Religion is the answer, incase you cant work it out.
I don't think a dogmatic nut like yourself has any right to tell others that they spew poison.
"Religion is the answer"
-Actually there is evidence in many prehistoric societies who did not yet develop fully constructing religious institutions.But anyway, a raving fool like yourself would not understand that what I am trying to say is that YOU DONT NEED THE CHURCH OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION TO ACCEPT MARRIAGE IF IT IS CIVIL....Okay?
You also they that only the catholic church is responsible for acts of abuse.I guess pahomije and Arsic are just exemptions huh?The thing is that I actually don't per se mind priests,I don't mind faith,I have many friends who have faith.I hate religion in its real meaning,and idiots like yourself.You can believe in the spaghetti monster all your like.Does not mean you have to impose it on other people.
As a christian however i would like to ask you then how do you reconcile in your good book the close proximity between one the one hand talking about peace and on the other hand condoning mass genocide?I as an atheist have no problem with it what so ever because i don't believe in such nonsense.
Anyway the point which I was trying to make is that its not the gays who are forcing their lifestyle on you,far from it ,YOUR ideology is oppressing them.you knowing that you could not make an answer to my point did not bring it up in your reply.
Don't worry about me spewing crap,you nationalist right-tards do that just fine.
SCP. With regards to your comments regarding the Deep South of the USA and Gay Pride. I am a Gay southerner from Alabama. Over 300,000 attended the Gay Pride parade in Houston. Atlanta, Birmingham, Memphis, Nashville have large Gay Pride Parades. Even smaller Southern Cities like Greenville, Augusta, and Mobile have them.
The only reason Gays in the Deep South have rights is that we don't let the state nullify our rights because we are unpopular. Not too long ago, Alabama was like Belgrade is today, where violent thugs, with the tacit approval of the state/police, used terrorism/violence to stop minorities from exercising their rights. In Belgrade today, the police/Interior Ministry is apparently allowing those that seek to threaten or use physical violence to silence minorities (e.g., terrorism) to profit from those threats or violence. No one has gone to jail for the past violence in Belgrade. Apparently, violence, not the rule of law is the defacto arbiter of life in Serbia. We shall see if the Parade goes forward or if Serbia is still a state ruled by mob violence and a police force that is incompetent and/or unwilling to do their jobs.
No SCP UK, you are wrong. It is connected. History shows that states fail at some point, if they do not provide for everyone sufficient mechanisms to participate and shape the future of their society (economy is part of the societies life). Democracy is about using as much eyes, ears, minds and opinions as possible. This makes a country strong in the long run.
You must give those a voice who suffer from society. Either if it is because they are constantly beaten up and suffer from their families because they are gay, because they are kicked out of their homes with violence as in the case of Roma, or their neighbours spy on them and they are victims of the secret services as in the case of Yugoslavia. Democracy is not a self-runner, it constanly needs to be protected and small undemocratic things can easily develop into a disaster.
Check the history of Germany. They had democracy after WWI, but it was not so important for the people, it was not internalised. Economy broke and people started to get radical. The majority (well, nobody knows if there was a majority after 1933, because there were not elections anymore) did not care about minority rights and the society became less liberal. Well, the rest is history (and the result was not economic success). After the war, the society started to open itself again and it became one of the most creative and competitive in the world (plus economic success). Nationalism and suppression always lead into disaster.
@SCP UK: No they can not live in peace. Plus, they group is not as small as you might think.
What a respectful and great culture that discriminates minorities, suppresses parts of its society, treats those groups with violence and excludes them from society. What a lovely environment to raise your children. No surprise for me that so many are leaving the Balkans.
You really don't get it, today it is the gays, the Roma, , the women, the Albanians, the whatever, and tomorrow you have a war again. I wish you good luck that you are not in the Balkans at this point, because you never know when it is you who is suddenly part of a minority (e.g. Serbs who came from abroad), or somebody thinks you are. This is a culture of hate and exclusion and you should seriously ask yourself if this does not need some improvement.
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