Jasenovac is a Serbian myth and not a camp where Serbs, Jews and Roma were killed, Croatian historian and priest Stjepan Razum told weekly Hrvatski list.
He didn't say it was made up, he just said it was exaggerated (which pretty much every "genocide" from the Nazis is). Serbs need to stop lying like the Jews.
What a bunch of hypocrites and small people with little character who comment on B92!
If this was an ordained priest of the Eastern Orthodox Church making these comments, there would be personal insults made, crude name calling, cries of mixing church with politics, athiest with their lack of civility and always the collective guilt to blame every member of Sernian society.
Here are some examples …
“Croatia is fascism … Denazification, denazification of all Croatians is needed.
Hey, mr. priest – old man- wears a dress, stick to praying for peace and reconciliation instead of getting involved in politics.
The Catholic Church in Croatia sanctioned the murder of non-Catholics during WWII.
Croatia needs to atone for their past and acknowledge what they did.
Your way of dealing with crimes committed in your peoples name, Croatia, is to deny them.”
From the wack-job in frisco to the albino in Germany … to the Bible thumper Croatian lover who uses Scripture to spread hate to those rude athiest who use crude anti-religion comments and those of you who contribute here wishing others misfortune and pain and suffering in this world … Every innocent life lost, regardless of their ethnicity, deserves the same respect.
The more this priest speaks such lies, the more the world will see not just the lack of repentance for the WWII genocide in Croatia, but the depths of the involvement of the Catholic Church itself in the NDH Jasenovac death-camp system.
The fact that there is no outcry from today's Croatian leadership against this priest shows that the complicity lies not just with the historical WWII Croat nazi-clerical regime, but right up to today's so-called EUropean Croatian democracy.
And to take this subject to its logical extension, the silence from the EU on the whole subject of Croatia's 1941-45 slaughter of Serbs, Jews and Roma, as well as the EU failure to take any steps to return to their homes the 1990s victims of Croatian ethnic cleansing shows that the EU itself is content to remain mute on Croatia's continuation of nazi-style persecution.
What a glorious new start for a revived German-led EUrope and its born-again Croatian vassal/colony!
It seems the ex-yu has more and more genocide denial occurring on all sides. This "expert" is ridiculous and the claims are completely ludicrous. The fact that this get so much press really says something about our societies. He needs to be ostracized and the same needs to be done to the Serbian genocide deniers. We need to respect the victims of genocide and I think the ex-yu needs to have a joint day for genocide commemoration for all the victims regardless of ethnicity. I know it will be difficult to agree on a date, but it is not impossible. I think that is one way to help ensure we do not keep falling into the same cycle of genocide, followed by excuses of 50 years ago that group did that to my group. At some point every group has been a victim somewhere on our territories and it needs to stop!
(Bam Bam, 24 August 2012 01:35)
This is good. Now we have Serbs and Partisan Croats were killed in Jasenovac. I knew that the Croats had to worm their way in somehow.
First of all it was not just Jasenovac but about a 7 or 8 other sites. It’s just that Jasenovac was the biggest and Tito never visited because he wanted to have a united Yugoslavia not divide it. That is why he only went to Partisan memorials and not ethnic ones. There is a monument in Kragujevac Serbia to 3000 killed by the Germans of which nearly an entire 5 grade from the local school were executed (children) and Tito never visited that site either.
(Comm. Parrisson, 23 August 2012 15:04)
Now tell me how does one commit genocide in Srebrenica, but forgoes to do the same in other areas of Bosnia? During WW2 the Croats did their dirty work throughout Croatia and Bosnia. The Germans operated on a larger scale though out Europe, but much the same as the Croats. Now as you state that the Serbs deny Srebrenica or that they committed genocide, when did the Serbs attempt to liquidate all the Bosniaks? You problem is very simple and that is you listen to the so called judiciary on that interbnationasl court who are so inept they don’t allow them to sit in Traffic Court hearings in their own coutnries. But according to your statement if I can organize these illustrious gentlemen to declare Comm. Parrisson is stupid or a simpleton then I imagine you would carry a placard around your neck which states this fact.
Recently Dodik was invited by Israel to visit that country and the Bosniaks went into hyperventilation demanding they revoke that invitation because Dodik refused to accept genocide being committed in Srebrenica. The response from Israel was truly brilliant. The spokesperson said that it is up to Israel which of its friends it invites to visit. Now I imagine the jews know a thing or two about genocide and killings of that nature.
Ridiculous. Serbs get mad because a croatian historian denies something that happened almost 70 years ago while the Serbian president denies Serbrenica that happened 20 years ago and is all captured on video.
(Mark, 24 August 2012 00:41)
Which video are you talking about? Oh I understand now, yes that is very true they did capture the killings on camera, but mate it was your Croats executing Bosniaks in central Bosnia. They filmed themselves doing the deed for posterity, but you Croats are all the same because within 6 months the Bosniaks had your lot on the run and it was the Serbs that saved 20 000 Croats from being killed by their allies when the Serbs allowed them to escape through their territory.
Jobsworth- you can, but posting on a Serbian site attempting to relativise Jasenovac and Srebrenica is in very poor taste IMHO. I know you did it to make your point, but it is insulting to Serbs. And to say killing 5000 armed men is the same as killing 500000 unarmed men women and children is absurd. Maybe as a technicality but not in reality.
Biggest clown in Croatia.
He is nothing but a money theif like all religious priests.
The whole world knows all about the crimes committed by the bourgeois Ustasa.
jobsworth, whilst I understand where your coming from, the retaliation killing of several thousand Bosnian Muslim soldiers is much different when compared to the systematic murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians. One is a single event fueled by rage, whereas the other an organised extermination set over several months, if not years.
No one is denying that a massacre took place at Jasenovac but for the Serbs to continually state that 700.000 Serbs were executed is totally absurd. After the war Jasenovac was only mentioned publicly due to the Jewish casualties at the site. Do you think the world would have actually paid attention to the Serb & Partizan Croats deaths at the site if it weren't for the Jews ..I don't think so. Tito himself never visited the site as there as he seen there was no point to do so.
Ridiculous. Serbs get mad because a croatian historian denies something that happened almost 70 years ago while the Serbian president denies Serbrenica that happened 20 years ago and is all captured on video.
so lets see what these idiots are saying first they say it never happened then they say the number of deaths was not acurate lol how stupid is this priest and historian .they dont know what their talking about thye are just plain stupid and mixed up on the mind lol...
Jeff: I hope that we can agree that if something has been classed as genocide and generally accepted as such (except by the perpetrators)then the events can be mentioned in the same list without offence being caused. If I kill two people I am no less a murderer than the man who kills three. I could have listed many more examples but as I replied to another commenter there isn't room for them all.
Peter K: I made no comment on whether Croats like/hate Serbs or vice versa for that matter. I was expressing an opinion, as opposed to a fact, that I do not believe that the majority of Croats are holocaust deniers or that the majority of Serbs supported ethnic cleansing. I maintain that view. Feel free to go back and read my initial comment again.
EU Dude: It was not a case of forgetting the events of Operation Storm or any of the other genocides of the 20th century that I also didn't mention; Rwanda, the Holocaust and so forth. This is not to downplay them but there isn't enough space here to list them all so I chose three examples where the perpetrators were of different origin. I do not distinguish between 'types' of genocide; they are all by definition horrendous. I have no agenda in making my comments; I am not a Serb, a Croat, an Armenian or a Rwandan, neither am I Jewish. I am attempting to make informed impartial comments.
about 56,000 Serbs died there out of 80,000. so while they were the majority who died there, they were not the only victims. otheres included roma, jews and croats. never forget. but never manipulate the truth either!
Jobsworth- to compare Jasenovac with Srebrenica is an insult to all the victims of genocide. How on earth you can compare the 2 is beyond comprehension. Excepting that comparison, your point is well made.
Yet they will be granted membership status into the EU! Where are all the world news agencies now? Why aren't they putting up headlines demonizing Croatia? Of course this is expected from Croatia, it's just a shame that they took the easy way out and joined with the Germans. But we still have to remind of which language they speak, and it's not German!
This is nothing new, the revisionism of the History of the second world war has been in full force in the fourth reich for years. The fourth reich is the EU. Croatia and her Germanic European handlers will once again learn the lessons of the second world war-that lesson is coming sooner than you think. Keep barking ustashi!
"Razum denied the number of the Jasenovac victims, even though names of most of the victims are known, claiming that the number had no foundation in the reality."
Well, denial of historical events and crimes seems to become more ande more common.
Now this Croat who denies Jasenovac, the Serbs who deny Sebrenica (or try to downplay the number of about 7,000 people executed by Mladic's troops), and of course not to forget Mr. Ahmadinejad who denies that the Holocaust with millions of jews killed in concentration camps happened.
It doesn't bother Germany so it doesn't bother Croatia. The Croats get a special pass to join the EU despite the demand for significant right of return to be implemented. The same is true for Pristina where the west can't even be bothered.
As for 'jobsworth', if we are on about denial of genocide, why did you forget about the genocide in 1995 by the Croats during Operations Storm & Flash?
The Vatican was in on the slaughter and they are in on the denial now.
The Vatican is a very powerful organisation but even they won't be able to rewrite history.
Jeff: 'Anything can be said or done without consequences'. The answer to this is two fold. Firstly, not all consequences are of a legal nature. The man who made these comments has, as a consequence, brought opprobrium upon himself and made himself look like a complete fool. Secondly, a genocide denial law across Europe would assist in bringing before the courts people who refused to accept historical fact, be that in Armenia, Jasenovac or Srebrenica. What tends to happen is that people see the actions of their own side as 'heroic' whilst those of their enemies are painted as war crimes or genocide. Additionally the passing of time gives an opportunity for people to re-write history and to present it to today's generation in an entirely different way to that in which in actually occurred; as has happened in this case. Far from being angry with this man I feel sorry for him that he has deluded himself into believing his ridiculous version of the horrific events of WW2. Let's not pretend that he speaks for the majority of Croatians here because he doesn't, anymore than Milosevic was carrying out the wishes of the majority of Serbs.
Like all your kind, you are an evil man who denies the truth and tries to cover up your nation's dark and evil deeds, but it doesn't matter the whole world knows what the croats did to those people and is an historical fact and a big black mark on the croat peple. When the day of your judgement comes and you stand before God there is no hiding the truth then Razum, then you and people like you will be sent to the place where you are destined to go and that day will come as sure as the sun rises. All those victims will stand as a witness against you and your vile countrymen for those cowardly crimes against innocent civilians who could not defend themselves. Anyone who says they believe in God and denies the truth of such evil events is a servant of the Devil. The only holy duty is to admit the guilt and beg for foregiveness. But you Razum are a vile man and of the same mind as your ustasha fathers, only hell waits for you and your kind and that is my satisfaction because I know that is what is waiting for you.
Is it surprising to read this? No considering that after WW2 over 600 Croatian Ustashi clergy were listed as war criminals. No other nation has such a stain on its record. Naturally, they are going to try and down play the numbers killed in Jasenovac, why even Tudjman claimed it was a mere 20,000 , but this bozo also claimed that Marco Polo was a Croat.
Once an Ustasha always an Ustasha. Helped by a completely discredited Catholic Church to escape justice after WW2 that is now reeling in all parts of the world from the shocking disclosure of pedophile priests and their protectors, the Church hierarchy.
Naturally these figures are made up, why even the Serbs killed themselves. One is tempted to say what a disgrace this so called historian/priest Stepjan Razum is, but he is a Croatian. When normal people feel shame at certain actions these Croats take pride.
Well done good Doctor Razum you couldn’t not have made more of a fool of yourself if you tried.
This is what it has come to. The Serbs have been vilified by the western press to such a degree we are considered open game. Anything can be said or done without any consequences. Is nothing sacred? Are we not human? When will this witch hunt end?
Wikipedia says: Jasenovac concentration camp was an extermination camp established in the Independent State of Croatia during World War 2, and it was the only extermination camp that was not operated by the Germans, and was among the largest camps in Europe.
A report of the National Committee of Croatia for the investigation of the crimes of the occupation forces and their collaborators, dated 15 November 1945, which was commissioned by the new government of Yugoslavia under Josip Broz Tito, stated that 500,000-600,000 people were killed at the Jasenovac complex.
The exact number of Serbian, Jewish and Roma civilians slaughtered by fascist Croats at the only Concentration Camp which was not run by Germans will never be known. Serbian civilians were also butchered in their homes, churches, fields and in the streets.
It was clear after WW2 that several hundred thousand Serbs had been murdered by fascist Croats. It was clear because Serbian villages and towns on the territories occupied by fascist Croats were empty of Serbs. How man were murdered in Jasenovac is still open for discussion, but it is commonly held that the figure lies somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million; a figure that fascist Croats, until recently, would repeat with pride.
Holocaust deniers in Croatia and elsewhere have now revised the figure of those murdered at Jasenovac to 80,000.
This is what it has come to. The Serbs have been vilified by the western press to such a degree we are considered open game. Anything can be said or done without any consequences. Is nothing sacred? Are we not human? When will this witch hunt end?
The exact number of Serbian, Jewish and Roma civilians slaughtered by fascist Croats at the only Concentration Camp which was not run by Germans will never be known. Serbian civilians were also butchered in their homes, churches, fields and in the streets.
It was clear after WW2 that several hundred thousand Serbs had been murdered by fascist Croats. It was clear because Serbian villages and towns on the territories occupied by fascist Croats were empty of Serbs. How man were murdered in Jasenovac is still open for discussion, but it is commonly held that the figure lies somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million; a figure that fascist Croats, until recently, would repeat with pride.
Holocaust deniers in Croatia and elsewhere have now revised the figure of those murdered at Jasenovac to 80,000.
Wikipedia says: Jasenovac concentration camp was an extermination camp established in the Independent State of Croatia during World War 2, and it was the only extermination camp that was not operated by the Germans, and was among the largest camps in Europe.
A report of the National Committee of Croatia for the investigation of the crimes of the occupation forces and their collaborators, dated 15 November 1945, which was commissioned by the new government of Yugoslavia under Josip Broz Tito, stated that 500,000-600,000 people were killed at the Jasenovac complex.
Is it surprising to read this? No considering that after WW2 over 600 Croatian Ustashi clergy were listed as war criminals. No other nation has such a stain on its record. Naturally, they are going to try and down play the numbers killed in Jasenovac, why even Tudjman claimed it was a mere 20,000 , but this bozo also claimed that Marco Polo was a Croat.
Once an Ustasha always an Ustasha. Helped by a completely discredited Catholic Church to escape justice after WW2 that is now reeling in all parts of the world from the shocking disclosure of pedophile priests and their protectors, the Church hierarchy.
Naturally these figures are made up, why even the Serbs killed themselves. One is tempted to say what a disgrace this so called historian/priest Stepjan Razum is, but he is a Croatian. When normal people feel shame at certain actions these Croats take pride.
Well done good Doctor Razum you couldn’t not have made more of a fool of yourself if you tried.
Like all your kind, you are an evil man who denies the truth and tries to cover up your nation's dark and evil deeds, but it doesn't matter the whole world knows what the croats did to those people and is an historical fact and a big black mark on the croat peple. When the day of your judgement comes and you stand before God there is no hiding the truth then Razum, then you and people like you will be sent to the place where you are destined to go and that day will come as sure as the sun rises. All those victims will stand as a witness against you and your vile countrymen for those cowardly crimes against innocent civilians who could not defend themselves. Anyone who says they believe in God and denies the truth of such evil events is a servant of the Devil. The only holy duty is to admit the guilt and beg for foregiveness. But you Razum are a vile man and of the same mind as your ustasha fathers, only hell waits for you and your kind and that is my satisfaction because I know that is what is waiting for you.
The Vatican was in on the slaughter and they are in on the denial now.
The Vatican is a very powerful organisation but even they won't be able to rewrite history.
This is nothing new, the revisionism of the History of the second world war has been in full force in the fourth reich for years. The fourth reich is the EU. Croatia and her Germanic European handlers will once again learn the lessons of the second world war-that lesson is coming sooner than you think. Keep barking ustashi!
so lets see what these idiots are saying first they say it never happened then they say the number of deaths was not acurate lol how stupid is this priest and historian .they dont know what their talking about thye are just plain stupid and mixed up on the mind lol...
It doesn't bother Germany so it doesn't bother Croatia. The Croats get a special pass to join the EU despite the demand for significant right of return to be implemented. The same is true for Pristina where the west can't even be bothered.
As for 'jobsworth', if we are on about denial of genocide, why did you forget about the genocide in 1995 by the Croats during Operations Storm & Flash?
Yet they will be granted membership status into the EU! Where are all the world news agencies now? Why aren't they putting up headlines demonizing Croatia? Of course this is expected from Croatia, it's just a shame that they took the easy way out and joined with the Germans. But we still have to remind of which language they speak, and it's not German!
about 56,000 Serbs died there out of 80,000. so while they were the majority who died there, they were not the only victims. otheres included roma, jews and croats. never forget. but never manipulate the truth either!
Jobsworth- to compare Jasenovac with Srebrenica is an insult to all the victims of genocide. How on earth you can compare the 2 is beyond comprehension. Excepting that comparison, your point is well made.
Biggest clown in Croatia.
He is nothing but a money theif like all religious priests.
The whole world knows all about the crimes committed by the bourgeois Ustasa.
jobsworth, whilst I understand where your coming from, the retaliation killing of several thousand Bosnian Muslim soldiers is much different when compared to the systematic murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians. One is a single event fueled by rage, whereas the other an organised extermination set over several months, if not years.
"Razum denied the number of the Jasenovac victims, even though names of most of the victims are known, claiming that the number had no foundation in the reality."
Well, denial of historical events and crimes seems to become more ande more common.
Now this Croat who denies Jasenovac, the Serbs who deny Sebrenica (or try to downplay the number of about 7,000 people executed by Mladic's troops), and of course not to forget Mr. Ahmadinejad who denies that the Holocaust with millions of jews killed in concentration camps happened.
Peter K: I made no comment on whether Croats like/hate Serbs or vice versa for that matter. I was expressing an opinion, as opposed to a fact, that I do not believe that the majority of Croats are holocaust deniers or that the majority of Serbs supported ethnic cleansing. I maintain that view. Feel free to go back and read my initial comment again.
(Bam Bam, 24 August 2012 01:35)
This is good. Now we have Serbs and Partisan Croats were killed in Jasenovac. I knew that the Croats had to worm their way in somehow.
First of all it was not just Jasenovac but about a 7 or 8 other sites. It’s just that Jasenovac was the biggest and Tito never visited because he wanted to have a united Yugoslavia not divide it. That is why he only went to Partisan memorials and not ethnic ones. There is a monument in Kragujevac Serbia to 3000 killed by the Germans of which nearly an entire 5 grade from the local school were executed (children) and Tito never visited that site either.
Ridiculous. Serbs get mad because a croatian historian denies something that happened almost 70 years ago while the Serbian president denies Serbrenica that happened 20 years ago and is all captured on video.
(Mark, 24 August 2012 00:41)
Which video are you talking about? Oh I understand now, yes that is very true they did capture the killings on camera, but mate it was your Croats executing Bosniaks in central Bosnia. They filmed themselves doing the deed for posterity, but you Croats are all the same because within 6 months the Bosniaks had your lot on the run and it was the Serbs that saved 20 000 Croats from being killed by their allies when the Serbs allowed them to escape through their territory.
EU Dude: It was not a case of forgetting the events of Operation Storm or any of the other genocides of the 20th century that I also didn't mention; Rwanda, the Holocaust and so forth. This is not to downplay them but there isn't enough space here to list them all so I chose three examples where the perpetrators were of different origin. I do not distinguish between 'types' of genocide; they are all by definition horrendous. I have no agenda in making my comments; I am not a Serb, a Croat, an Armenian or a Rwandan, neither am I Jewish. I am attempting to make informed impartial comments.
The more this priest speaks such lies, the more the world will see not just the lack of repentance for the WWII genocide in Croatia, but the depths of the involvement of the Catholic Church itself in the NDH Jasenovac death-camp system.
The fact that there is no outcry from today's Croatian leadership against this priest shows that the complicity lies not just with the historical WWII Croat nazi-clerical regime, but right up to today's so-called EUropean Croatian democracy.
And to take this subject to its logical extension, the silence from the EU on the whole subject of Croatia's 1941-45 slaughter of Serbs, Jews and Roma, as well as the EU failure to take any steps to return to their homes the 1990s victims of Croatian ethnic cleansing shows that the EU itself is content to remain mute on Croatia's continuation of nazi-style persecution.
What a glorious new start for a revived German-led EUrope and its born-again Croatian vassal/colony!
Jeff: 'Anything can be said or done without consequences'. The answer to this is two fold. Firstly, not all consequences are of a legal nature. The man who made these comments has, as a consequence, brought opprobrium upon himself and made himself look like a complete fool. Secondly, a genocide denial law across Europe would assist in bringing before the courts people who refused to accept historical fact, be that in Armenia, Jasenovac or Srebrenica. What tends to happen is that people see the actions of their own side as 'heroic' whilst those of their enemies are painted as war crimes or genocide. Additionally the passing of time gives an opportunity for people to re-write history and to present it to today's generation in an entirely different way to that in which in actually occurred; as has happened in this case. Far from being angry with this man I feel sorry for him that he has deluded himself into believing his ridiculous version of the horrific events of WW2. Let's not pretend that he speaks for the majority of Croatians here because he doesn't, anymore than Milosevic was carrying out the wishes of the majority of Serbs.
Jobsworth- you can, but posting on a Serbian site attempting to relativise Jasenovac and Srebrenica is in very poor taste IMHO. I know you did it to make your point, but it is insulting to Serbs. And to say killing 5000 armed men is the same as killing 500000 unarmed men women and children is absurd. Maybe as a technicality but not in reality.
(Comm. Parrisson, 23 August 2012 15:04)
Now tell me how does one commit genocide in Srebrenica, but forgoes to do the same in other areas of Bosnia? During WW2 the Croats did their dirty work throughout Croatia and Bosnia. The Germans operated on a larger scale though out Europe, but much the same as the Croats. Now as you state that the Serbs deny Srebrenica or that they committed genocide, when did the Serbs attempt to liquidate all the Bosniaks? You problem is very simple and that is you listen to the so called judiciary on that interbnationasl court who are so inept they don’t allow them to sit in Traffic Court hearings in their own coutnries. But according to your statement if I can organize these illustrious gentlemen to declare Comm. Parrisson is stupid or a simpleton then I imagine you would carry a placard around your neck which states this fact.
Recently Dodik was invited by Israel to visit that country and the Bosniaks went into hyperventilation demanding they revoke that invitation because Dodik refused to accept genocide being committed in Srebrenica. The response from Israel was truly brilliant. The spokesperson said that it is up to Israel which of its friends it invites to visit. Now I imagine the jews know a thing or two about genocide and killings of that nature.
What a bunch of hypocrites and small people with little character who comment on B92!
If this was an ordained priest of the Eastern Orthodox Church making these comments, there would be personal insults made, crude name calling, cries of mixing church with politics, athiest with their lack of civility and always the collective guilt to blame every member of Sernian society.
Here are some examples …
“Croatia is fascism … Denazification, denazification of all Croatians is needed.
Hey, mr. priest – old man- wears a dress, stick to praying for peace and reconciliation instead of getting involved in politics.
The Catholic Church in Croatia sanctioned the murder of non-Catholics during WWII.
Croatia needs to atone for their past and acknowledge what they did.
Your way of dealing with crimes committed in your peoples name, Croatia, is to deny them.”
From the wack-job in frisco to the albino in Germany … to the Bible thumper Croatian lover who uses Scripture to spread hate to those rude athiest who use crude anti-religion comments and those of you who contribute here wishing others misfortune and pain and suffering in this world … Every innocent life lost, regardless of their ethnicity, deserves the same respect.
It seems the ex-yu has more and more genocide denial occurring on all sides. This "expert" is ridiculous and the claims are completely ludicrous. The fact that this get so much press really says something about our societies. He needs to be ostracized and the same needs to be done to the Serbian genocide deniers. We need to respect the victims of genocide and I think the ex-yu needs to have a joint day for genocide commemoration for all the victims regardless of ethnicity. I know it will be difficult to agree on a date, but it is not impossible. I think that is one way to help ensure we do not keep falling into the same cycle of genocide, followed by excuses of 50 years ago that group did that to my group. At some point every group has been a victim somewhere on our territories and it needs to stop!
Jeff: I hope that we can agree that if something has been classed as genocide and generally accepted as such (except by the perpetrators)then the events can be mentioned in the same list without offence being caused. If I kill two people I am no less a murderer than the man who kills three. I could have listed many more examples but as I replied to another commenter there isn't room for them all.
Ridiculous. Serbs get mad because a croatian historian denies something that happened almost 70 years ago while the Serbian president denies Serbrenica that happened 20 years ago and is all captured on video.
No one is denying that a massacre took place at Jasenovac but for the Serbs to continually state that 700.000 Serbs were executed is totally absurd. After the war Jasenovac was only mentioned publicly due to the Jewish casualties at the site. Do you think the world would have actually paid attention to the Serb & Partizan Croats deaths at the site if it weren't for the Jews ..I don't think so. Tito himself never visited the site as there as he seen there was no point to do so.
He didn't say it was made up, he just said it was exaggerated (which pretty much every "genocide" from the Nazis is). Serbs need to stop lying like the Jews.
Jeff: 'Anything can be said or done without consequences'. The answer to this is two fold. Firstly, not all consequences are of a legal nature. The man who made these comments has, as a consequence, brought opprobrium upon himself and made himself look like a complete fool. Secondly, a genocide denial law across Europe would assist in bringing before the courts people who refused to accept historical fact, be that in Armenia, Jasenovac or Srebrenica. What tends to happen is that people see the actions of their own side as 'heroic' whilst those of their enemies are painted as war crimes or genocide. Additionally the passing of time gives an opportunity for people to re-write history and to present it to today's generation in an entirely different way to that in which in actually occurred; as has happened in this case. Far from being angry with this man I feel sorry for him that he has deluded himself into believing his ridiculous version of the horrific events of WW2. Let's not pretend that he speaks for the majority of Croatians here because he doesn't, anymore than Milosevic was carrying out the wishes of the majority of Serbs.
No one is denying that a massacre took place at Jasenovac but for the Serbs to continually state that 700.000 Serbs were executed is totally absurd. After the war Jasenovac was only mentioned publicly due to the Jewish casualties at the site. Do you think the world would have actually paid attention to the Serb & Partizan Croats deaths at the site if it weren't for the Jews ..I don't think so. Tito himself never visited the site as there as he seen there was no point to do so.
Ridiculous. Serbs get mad because a croatian historian denies something that happened almost 70 years ago while the Serbian president denies Serbrenica that happened 20 years ago and is all captured on video.
The exact number of Serbian, Jewish and Roma civilians slaughtered by fascist Croats at the only Concentration Camp which was not run by Germans will never be known. Serbian civilians were also butchered in their homes, churches, fields and in the streets.
It was clear after WW2 that several hundred thousand Serbs had been murdered by fascist Croats. It was clear because Serbian villages and towns on the territories occupied by fascist Croats were empty of Serbs. How man were murdered in Jasenovac is still open for discussion, but it is commonly held that the figure lies somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million; a figure that fascist Croats, until recently, would repeat with pride.
Holocaust deniers in Croatia and elsewhere have now revised the figure of those murdered at Jasenovac to 80,000.
Wikipedia says: Jasenovac concentration camp was an extermination camp established in the Independent State of Croatia during World War 2, and it was the only extermination camp that was not operated by the Germans, and was among the largest camps in Europe.
A report of the National Committee of Croatia for the investigation of the crimes of the occupation forces and their collaborators, dated 15 November 1945, which was commissioned by the new government of Yugoslavia under Josip Broz Tito, stated that 500,000-600,000 people were killed at the Jasenovac complex.
Jeff: I hope that we can agree that if something has been classed as genocide and generally accepted as such (except by the perpetrators)then the events can be mentioned in the same list without offence being caused. If I kill two people I am no less a murderer than the man who kills three. I could have listed many more examples but as I replied to another commenter there isn't room for them all.
This is what it has come to. The Serbs have been vilified by the western press to such a degree we are considered open game. Anything can be said or done without any consequences. Is nothing sacred? Are we not human? When will this witch hunt end?
about 56,000 Serbs died there out of 80,000. so while they were the majority who died there, they were not the only victims. otheres included roma, jews and croats. never forget. but never manipulate the truth either!
The Vatican was in on the slaughter and they are in on the denial now.
The Vatican is a very powerful organisation but even they won't be able to rewrite history.
Like all your kind, you are an evil man who denies the truth and tries to cover up your nation's dark and evil deeds, but it doesn't matter the whole world knows what the croats did to those people and is an historical fact and a big black mark on the croat peple. When the day of your judgement comes and you stand before God there is no hiding the truth then Razum, then you and people like you will be sent to the place where you are destined to go and that day will come as sure as the sun rises. All those victims will stand as a witness against you and your vile countrymen for those cowardly crimes against innocent civilians who could not defend themselves. Anyone who says they believe in God and denies the truth of such evil events is a servant of the Devil. The only holy duty is to admit the guilt and beg for foregiveness. But you Razum are a vile man and of the same mind as your ustasha fathers, only hell waits for you and your kind and that is my satisfaction because I know that is what is waiting for you.
Is it surprising to read this? No considering that after WW2 over 600 Croatian Ustashi clergy were listed as war criminals. No other nation has such a stain on its record. Naturally, they are going to try and down play the numbers killed in Jasenovac, why even Tudjman claimed it was a mere 20,000 , but this bozo also claimed that Marco Polo was a Croat.
Once an Ustasha always an Ustasha. Helped by a completely discredited Catholic Church to escape justice after WW2 that is now reeling in all parts of the world from the shocking disclosure of pedophile priests and their protectors, the Church hierarchy.
Naturally these figures are made up, why even the Serbs killed themselves. One is tempted to say what a disgrace this so called historian/priest Stepjan Razum is, but he is a Croatian. When normal people feel shame at certain actions these Croats take pride.
Well done good Doctor Razum you couldn’t not have made more of a fool of yourself if you tried.
It doesn't bother Germany so it doesn't bother Croatia. The Croats get a special pass to join the EU despite the demand for significant right of return to be implemented. The same is true for Pristina where the west can't even be bothered.
As for 'jobsworth', if we are on about denial of genocide, why did you forget about the genocide in 1995 by the Croats during Operations Storm & Flash?
Peter K: I made no comment on whether Croats like/hate Serbs or vice versa for that matter. I was expressing an opinion, as opposed to a fact, that I do not believe that the majority of Croats are holocaust deniers or that the majority of Serbs supported ethnic cleansing. I maintain that view. Feel free to go back and read my initial comment again.
"Razum denied the number of the Jasenovac victims, even though names of most of the victims are known, claiming that the number had no foundation in the reality."
Well, denial of historical events and crimes seems to become more ande more common.
Now this Croat who denies Jasenovac, the Serbs who deny Sebrenica (or try to downplay the number of about 7,000 people executed by Mladic's troops), and of course not to forget Mr. Ahmadinejad who denies that the Holocaust with millions of jews killed in concentration camps happened.
Yet they will be granted membership status into the EU! Where are all the world news agencies now? Why aren't they putting up headlines demonizing Croatia? Of course this is expected from Croatia, it's just a shame that they took the easy way out and joined with the Germans. But we still have to remind of which language they speak, and it's not German!
EU Dude: It was not a case of forgetting the events of Operation Storm or any of the other genocides of the 20th century that I also didn't mention; Rwanda, the Holocaust and so forth. This is not to downplay them but there isn't enough space here to list them all so I chose three examples where the perpetrators were of different origin. I do not distinguish between 'types' of genocide; they are all by definition horrendous. I have no agenda in making my comments; I am not a Serb, a Croat, an Armenian or a Rwandan, neither am I Jewish. I am attempting to make informed impartial comments.
This is nothing new, the revisionism of the History of the second world war has been in full force in the fourth reich for years. The fourth reich is the EU. Croatia and her Germanic European handlers will once again learn the lessons of the second world war-that lesson is coming sooner than you think. Keep barking ustashi!
Jobsworth- to compare Jasenovac with Srebrenica is an insult to all the victims of genocide. How on earth you can compare the 2 is beyond comprehension. Excepting that comparison, your point is well made.
jobsworth, whilst I understand where your coming from, the retaliation killing of several thousand Bosnian Muslim soldiers is much different when compared to the systematic murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians. One is a single event fueled by rage, whereas the other an organised extermination set over several months, if not years.
so lets see what these idiots are saying first they say it never happened then they say the number of deaths was not acurate lol how stupid is this priest and historian .they dont know what their talking about thye are just plain stupid and mixed up on the mind lol...
(Comm. Parrisson, 23 August 2012 15:04)
Now tell me how does one commit genocide in Srebrenica, but forgoes to do the same in other areas of Bosnia? During WW2 the Croats did their dirty work throughout Croatia and Bosnia. The Germans operated on a larger scale though out Europe, but much the same as the Croats. Now as you state that the Serbs deny Srebrenica or that they committed genocide, when did the Serbs attempt to liquidate all the Bosniaks? You problem is very simple and that is you listen to the so called judiciary on that interbnationasl court who are so inept they don’t allow them to sit in Traffic Court hearings in their own coutnries. But according to your statement if I can organize these illustrious gentlemen to declare Comm. Parrisson is stupid or a simpleton then I imagine you would carry a placard around your neck which states this fact.
Recently Dodik was invited by Israel to visit that country and the Bosniaks went into hyperventilation demanding they revoke that invitation because Dodik refused to accept genocide being committed in Srebrenica. The response from Israel was truly brilliant. The spokesperson said that it is up to Israel which of its friends it invites to visit. Now I imagine the jews know a thing or two about genocide and killings of that nature.
Ridiculous. Serbs get mad because a croatian historian denies something that happened almost 70 years ago while the Serbian president denies Serbrenica that happened 20 years ago and is all captured on video.
(Mark, 24 August 2012 00:41)
Which video are you talking about? Oh I understand now, yes that is very true they did capture the killings on camera, but mate it was your Croats executing Bosniaks in central Bosnia. They filmed themselves doing the deed for posterity, but you Croats are all the same because within 6 months the Bosniaks had your lot on the run and it was the Serbs that saved 20 000 Croats from being killed by their allies when the Serbs allowed them to escape through their territory.
(Bam Bam, 24 August 2012 01:35)
This is good. Now we have Serbs and Partisan Croats were killed in Jasenovac. I knew that the Croats had to worm their way in somehow.
First of all it was not just Jasenovac but about a 7 or 8 other sites. It’s just that Jasenovac was the biggest and Tito never visited because he wanted to have a united Yugoslavia not divide it. That is why he only went to Partisan memorials and not ethnic ones. There is a monument in Kragujevac Serbia to 3000 killed by the Germans of which nearly an entire 5 grade from the local school were executed (children) and Tito never visited that site either.
Jobsworth- you can, but posting on a Serbian site attempting to relativise Jasenovac and Srebrenica is in very poor taste IMHO. I know you did it to make your point, but it is insulting to Serbs. And to say killing 5000 armed men is the same as killing 500000 unarmed men women and children is absurd. Maybe as a technicality but not in reality.
Biggest clown in Croatia.
He is nothing but a money theif like all religious priests.
The whole world knows all about the crimes committed by the bourgeois Ustasa.
It seems the ex-yu has more and more genocide denial occurring on all sides. This "expert" is ridiculous and the claims are completely ludicrous. The fact that this get so much press really says something about our societies. He needs to be ostracized and the same needs to be done to the Serbian genocide deniers. We need to respect the victims of genocide and I think the ex-yu needs to have a joint day for genocide commemoration for all the victims regardless of ethnicity. I know it will be difficult to agree on a date, but it is not impossible. I think that is one way to help ensure we do not keep falling into the same cycle of genocide, followed by excuses of 50 years ago that group did that to my group. At some point every group has been a victim somewhere on our territories and it needs to stop!
The more this priest speaks such lies, the more the world will see not just the lack of repentance for the WWII genocide in Croatia, but the depths of the involvement of the Catholic Church itself in the NDH Jasenovac death-camp system.
The fact that there is no outcry from today's Croatian leadership against this priest shows that the complicity lies not just with the historical WWII Croat nazi-clerical regime, but right up to today's so-called EUropean Croatian democracy.
And to take this subject to its logical extension, the silence from the EU on the whole subject of Croatia's 1941-45 slaughter of Serbs, Jews and Roma, as well as the EU failure to take any steps to return to their homes the 1990s victims of Croatian ethnic cleansing shows that the EU itself is content to remain mute on Croatia's continuation of nazi-style persecution.
What a glorious new start for a revived German-led EUrope and its born-again Croatian vassal/colony!
He didn't say it was made up, he just said it was exaggerated (which pretty much every "genocide" from the Nazis is). Serbs need to stop lying like the Jews.
What a bunch of hypocrites and small people with little character who comment on B92!
If this was an ordained priest of the Eastern Orthodox Church making these comments, there would be personal insults made, crude name calling, cries of mixing church with politics, athiest with their lack of civility and always the collective guilt to blame every member of Sernian society.
Here are some examples …
“Croatia is fascism … Denazification, denazification of all Croatians is needed.
Hey, mr. priest – old man- wears a dress, stick to praying for peace and reconciliation instead of getting involved in politics.
The Catholic Church in Croatia sanctioned the murder of non-Catholics during WWII.
Croatia needs to atone for their past and acknowledge what they did.
Your way of dealing with crimes committed in your peoples name, Croatia, is to deny them.”
From the wack-job in frisco to the albino in Germany … to the Bible thumper Croatian lover who uses Scripture to spread hate to those rude athiest who use crude anti-religion comments and those of you who contribute here wishing others misfortune and pain and suffering in this world … Every innocent life lost, regardless of their ethnicity, deserves the same respect.
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