Ah, you crack me up. Actually, I think I swore a few months back not to bother arguing with you anymore and then forgot. I'm quickly reminded of what prompted my earlier remarks...
Not really sure how moderate trends in Croatian government equate to a quiet Serbian takeover of Zagreb politics, but I guess we'll call it poetic license on your part.
You're asking which presidents since Roosevelt have been revered by Americans? I can think of a bunch, and Clinton would definitely be one. OK, maybe not by Republicans, but even they probably admit in private that he was much better for the US than George W Bush. Anyway, besides Clinton, you have Kennedy, Eisenhower and yes, Reagan, though I personally think he's highly over-rated.
You're saying I'm denying our eviction from the South China Sea and blah blah blah, but that isn't true. I'm as convinced as anyone about the decline of the US but that's really got little to do with the plight of the Cetnik cause. You and I would probably agree a great deal on US economic, military, environmental and social woes, but when it comes to Serbian affairs -- what we're talking about here -- well, that's clearly a different story.
What use is it in arguing with Serbs when they are obviously jealous of Montenegro's progress? Just keep making Serbia hand over the cash to use the ports and let them kick and scream like little children. I too would be jealous if my country was a landlocked, uranium depleted infested, Russian satellite state like Serbia. Montenegro is naturally beautiful with beautiful people and a beautiful future!
(Wesley Clark, 22 May 2012 16:10)
Lol, well I doubt anybody in Serbia really cares THAT much about Montenegro. Normal, everyday Serbs, at least. Heck, the country hasn't even grown that much by population since Yugoslav times. They try to seperate themselves from an already moderate Serbian identity that Serbs just find it kinda funny, despite Montenegro being well tied in with Serbia culturally as well as historically, and even to another extent,Greek and even Bulgarian history.
Point is, nobody is "kicking and screaming" as you say. They just don't care.
They wouldn't mind going there for vacation, though :D Beautiful place.
What use is it in arguing with Serbs when they are obviously jealous of Montenegro's progress? Just keep making Serbia hand over the cash to use the ports and let them kick and scream like little children. I too would be jealous if my country was a landlocked, uranium depleted infested, Russian satellite state like Serbia. Montenegro is naturally beautiful with beautiful people and a beautiful future!
Weeks ago i travelled to Serbia via Montenegro. I could see clear sign of developents in Albania and Serbia, but i didn't notive nothing in Montenegro. Beside a recently contructed motorway, the buildings were falling apart, no investiment in infrastructure and maybe just an opinionin, a lot of unemployment (in podgorica, ulcinj and bar, it was easy to spot road full of young people in the middle of working hours). In my opinionin, Crna Gora was wrong voting pro indipendence. Serbia continues to use it's ports and sea. The only thing they won with the indipendence was the cancelations of some debts, but now they dont have investiment from belgrade and they are starting to feel the pain
(tiranaboy, 21 May 2012 19:11)
I think you are wrong. Serbia is the only place in Balkan that with its unjustified desire to be a leader and not equal partner with other states is in dilemma between Russia and West. At least since Alexander the Great and Roman Empire the West is the most developed part of the World. Russia has been a military power, but never an example of development or civilization. So Montenegro has done the right choose the West and has let alone Serbia in it’s dilemma between Russia and West. The analysis of economic development can not be done by a travel with car. A lot of chaotic construction in Albania I don’t see as long term development but as destruction of environment. We can not know what economic development would had Montenegro if was still in Yugoslavia, but If before Serbia use the resources of Montenegro for free now Serbia has to pay for the Ports and sea of Montenegro. So economically Montenegro has profit and strategically in long-term has profit cause to the alliance with West.
Ok, I was hoping some inquisitive Montenegrin would look up how much they can expect from handling those new Fiats, but I guess everybody's out celebrating.
According to http://www.pobjeda.me/2012/02/23/luka-bar-fiat-montekargo-i-grimaldi-danas-u-baru-potpisuju-ugovor/, the expected take for Montenegro from these cars will be about 10 million euros a year. A nice piece of cash, especially considering the size of the population. (How many tourist-days does that come to, I wonder??)
I look to what will happen and unlike you who has a sore neck because you are turning and loking at the past of a wealthy and glorious west. Our heroes are in prison or dead thanks to the west because the Serbs made them look like the fools they really are lal Iraq Afghanistan Somalia and so on. Our people will compose songs and sing about Mladic and Karadzic etc and out future generations will be proud of their past, but pray tell me Nenad what will the Americans do for Bill Clinton? The only thing they woill remember Bill for is Monica and his pants. Which US president is revered since Roosevelt? Not ONE!!!!!!!!!
Kosovo needs to rot a lot more before Serbia takes over again. The best tactic is to leave it sink even further under UE control and this recession is going to do just that. Why do you think that the EU announced it disappointment with Boris Tadic losing office? Because he would have papered over with Kosovo and allowed the Albanian rabble to enter Serbia looking for work. Kosovo is a pot boiling and the EU are desperate to find a safety valve and Tadic was it, but now that Nikolic or should I say Valdimir Putin has the government in his hands its now going to get a thousand times tougher and the Albanians are going to watch as aid is given to the Serbs but they get nothing and if they lift a finger NATO will use live rounds.
I would declare RS insane to leave Bosnia now with the EU pouring money in and Dodik only has make mention of leaving Brussels rushes to Banja Luka offering more incentives. The three things that making money, comedy and breaking away have in common is timing and now is not the right time. I am delighted that Montenegro has gone. I’m not here in tears as Serbia has everything it needs but Montenegro is turning into another Kosovo.
Have a good look at the Croatian Government, a very close look mate. They have already announced that Bleiberg is nothing and Jasenovac was a crime against humanity. You think that all the Serbs have left Croatia; no they have not but they not in the same numbers of yesteryear. On the issue why has this government been allowed in office, it’s because the EU is so fed up and embarrassed by the like of HDZ and Vladimir Seks that they decided to remove them from office and never allow a fascist group in again. Look at the HDZ conference where even they are now declaring Jasenovac a crime. You just don’t get it do you? No one leaves with nothing and compensation will have to be paid to all that were kicked out. One small clause of the agreement signed between Zagreb and Belgrade states that if a family has paid rent for all this time they would be reimbursed for that rent. Let me put it another way, if Zargreb does not deal with it Brussels will. And Croatia does not have the money to deal with it.
The wine you get for $7 a bottle is crap for the US market as the good stuff goes to Asia but I maybe sipping too much wine but you my little friend are living with Snow White and reading how fantastic the west is while communist China keeps on propping your lot. Ask yourself why doesn’t the Pentagon take action since China kicked it out of the South China Sea? Perhaps you can explain that one as people like you have been denying this fact for a long time.
Unfortunatly for you Croats the Serbs have only begun to piss on you from a very great height. These things take time and like a good wine you savor every drop so you don’t rush it. We now control the government as there are more Serbs at all levels in Zagreb than in Belgrade. Next we will slow tear Croatia apart because now we can and as Serbia becomes the energy hub of that entire region we will leave a small area around Zagreb as Croatia.
Oh the Kremlin is the next big thing in Europe; why even your Pope in Rome is kissing Russian a***. Enjoy!!!!
(sj, 21 May 2012 14:37)
You and others have been saying stuff like this for years, but what about Serbia has really improved from a nationalist perspective? All the heroes are in jail (or died there), Kosovo is no closer to being back in the fold, RS continues to squawk about independence but never seems to tell us when and how, exactly, that independence will come about, and Montenegro is now celebrating the 6th anniversary of its divorce from Serbia.
How can the Croatian parliament be so chock full of Serbs when hardly any Serbs remain after Krajina was cleansed in 1995? And even if there were hundreds of thousands of Serbs living in Croatia, why would the Croats allow them so much power in government? People constantly post on here about the strong presence of anti-Serb discrimination in Croatia. Your claim makes little sense.
Russia may be on the rise, but it remains to be seen how it will handle its growing strength. Again, its been rising for at least half a decade now, while the West declines, and yet in Serbia, we see horrendous unemployment, an ever-weakening currency and a heavily disgruntled electorate. Would it really have been so hard for the DS-led coalition to recognize Russia as a better partner these past four years -- if that were true? Think about it: Russia doesn't support the trials against Mladic, Karadzic, etc; Russia doesn't support Kosovo independence; Russia is anti-NATO; Russia is the dominant supplier of gas to Europe; Russia is growing economically while most of the EU is slumping...why would any Serb politician with half a brain focus so much on EU accession with so many goodies from Russia on the table?
I don't know what wine you've been savoring drop-by-drop all these years, but I'm guessing it's one of those cheap Australian reds I can buy at the supermarket for $7 a bottle.
Right, more than 90% of the new Fiats are being exported to the US (whatever happened to selling them to Russia?) and will be shipped through Luka Bar. (The Montenegrin papers may have the cost per car for port services - the figure I remember must include shipment to the US.) In any case, those cars rolling out of the old Zastava plant mean business for Montenegro.
No one in Serbia is against the idea of a separate Montenegrin state. You see historically Montenegro was always independent but always a Serbian country. The problem is now is Milo Djukanovic and his clan of criminals are trying to create an entire new nationality as well as church out of thin air.
Serbia needs to take one of 2 definitive stances in regards to Montenegro. They need to ask their friends in this country to vote out the Djukanovic's as he is not leading a Serbian friendly policy. This does not mean they MUST retract their independence you can keep it, but this criminal can no longer be tolerated. If Montenegro refuses then Serbia should slap sanctions on the country until that regime falls. This means no MOntenegrin students in Belgrade paying domestic fees, no putting up Montenegro's ambassador staffs in Serbian embassies world wide and nothing coming in or out of Montenegro to/from Serbia.
It is not against the people but Serbia should have no relations with this criminal. If Montenegro chooses a different path be it integration into the Serbian state or just good historic brotherly relations with Serbia, then we can pursue that path and you can have all of the things Serbia grants to you.
Lenard, you seem to have a underlying hate for Serbs and Serbia yet you come on a Serbian forum to spew your views. Has a Serb taken a female companion away from you at one point? I can't blame you for the hate, in Canada there is a saying "if Serbs are at a party, keep your girlfriends home".
Weeks ago i travelled to Serbia via Montenegro. I could see clear sign of developents in Albania and Serbia, but i didn't notive nothing in Montenegro. Beside a recently contructed motorway, the buildings were falling apart, no investiment in infrastructure and maybe just an opinionin, a lot of unemployment (in podgorica, ulcinj and bar, it was easy to spot road full of young people in the middle of working hours). In my opinionin, Crna Gora was wrong voting pro indipendence. Serbia continues to use it's ports and sea. The only thing they won with the indipendence was the cancelations of some debts, but now they dont have investiment from belgrade and they are starting to feel the pain
Just like Vojvodjanians,Belgraders,Sumadinci,Bosnian Serbs we Montenegrins are nothing but Serbs!
Greetings from Serbian Podgorica!
I am glad that K-Albanians are not on your list. This proves that Kosova has nothing to do with Serbia. I got news for you though; "Even Montenegrians are distinct from Serbs and have nothing to do with each other".
Congrats Independence Day CG.
Happy Independence Day Montenegro!
(Ian, UK, 21 May 2012 14:32)
Dear Ian,we Montenegrins are ethnical Serbs (Karadzic,Mladic and Slobodan Milosevic are Serbs from Montenegro) and the overwhelming majority of us wants Montenegro to be a part of the state of Serbia!
Just like Vojvodjanians,Belgraders,Sumadinci,Bosnian Serbs we Montenegrins are nothing but Serbs!
And that is why after the fall of the criminal Djukanovic regime the new government will hold a refrendum with the only goal in mind:
to make Montenegro part of an united Serbia ,nobody can surpress the will of the Montenegrinian people for that to happen!
In this state,those old communist autonomies which were deliberately designed to partion Serbia (Vojvodina,Montenegro) should be erased!
We want a strong Serbian state with strong local governments but without any regional idendities which would only weaken Serbia!
Someone is obviously still bitter over Montenegro's independence. So bitter they make up statistics. There isn't statistics as such as to how many people are 'on the poverty line', however 7% of Montenegro's population live under the poverty line compared to 8.8% of Serbia's population. Not to mention that Montenegro's economy is growing at a faster rate than Serbia. The GDP (nominal) per capita in Montenegro is $6,877 compared to $5,816 in Serbia. The GDP (PPP) per capita in Montenegro is $11,545 compared to $10,642 in Serbia.
Happy Independence Day Montenegro!
(Ian, UK, 21 May 2012 14:32)
It like reeling in fish, they can’t pass up a nibble - straight from the CIA worldbook. What does Montenegro produce to achieve this magnificent GDP PPP? The real estate boom finished about 2008 and we now have the EU in a deep recession while the US is experiencing deflation and its houses prices are falling dramatically and yet Montenegro is powering away. It only has tourism. You go in a little corner and give some thought about what you post . In plain term it’s called foot in mouth.
Oh you have mistaken my comment completely I am extremely happy that Montenegro has broken away as it one less group Serbia has to feed like Croatia or Slovenia, but Ian people like you think these places are magic then why not move to one of them? Croatia or Slovenia and Montenegro all live off tourism, something no other country has managed to achieve. So what do they do for the other 8 months of the year?
Montenegrins are a sort of Serbians or at least one needs a good microscope to discover the difference. So don’t present your figures as if they are to destroy our nervous systems. We are happy about our brothers ! Possibly they succeeded mostly in attracting the Russian money. But now Serbia has obtained the same chances for such investments. Montenegrins cannot alone withstand against the Albarkers and sooner or later they’ll need Serbia’s assist. And I am sure they will receive it. But for the time being the two countries should establish special relations.
Yes, celebrations are in order for Montenegro especially when poverty is rife with 80% living on or below the poverty line and services even in the capital are shabby at best. And what will happen when they join the EU you might ask? Nothing at all.
You see Montenegro already enjoys all that the EU has to offer otherwise without EU funds it would be chaos. So if the locals think it’s going to get better; sad to disappoint you as you have peaked and reached ye old bottom about four years ago.
(sj, 21 May 2012 11:48)
Someone is obviously still bitter over Montenegro's independence. So bitter they make up statistics. There isn't statistics as such as to how many people are 'on the poverty line', however 7% of Montenegro's population live under the poverty line compared to 8.8% of Serbia's population. Not to mention that Montenegro's economy is growing at a faster rate than Serbia. The GDP (nominal) per capita in Montenegro is $6,877 compared to $5,816 in Serbia. The GDP (PPP) per capita in Montenegro is $11,545 compared to $10,642 in Serbia.
Sj just put Serbia instead of Montenegro then you got almost the same exact deal. Serbs cant stand any one that is not a delusional Greater bigger better Serb of Serbia. As I remember Kremlin Russians said they are better Serbs then the Serbs them self's lol where will all this nonsense end sj.
(Lenard, 21 May 2012 12:52)
Unfortunatly for you Croats the Serbs have only begun to piss on you from a very great height. These things take time and like a good wine you savor every drop so you don’t rush it. We now control the government as there are more Serbs at all levels in Zagreb than in Belgrade. Next we will slow tear Croatia apart because now we can and as Serbia becomes the energy hub of that entire region we will leave a small area around Zagreb as Croatia.
Oh the Kremlin is the next big thing in Europe; why even your Pope in Rome is kissing Russian a***. Enjoy!!!!
Sj just put Serbia instead of Montenegro then you got almost the same exact deal. Serbs cant stand any one that is not a delusional Greater bigger better Serb of Serbia. As I remember Kremlin Russians said they are better Serbs then the Serbs them self's lol where will all this nonsense end sj.
Yes, celebrations are in order for Montenegro especially when poverty is rife with 80% living on or below the poverty line and services even in the capital are shabby at best. And what will happen when they join the EU you might ask? Nothing at all.
You see Montenegro already enjoys all that the EU has to offer otherwise without EU funds it would be chaos. So if the locals think it’s going to get better; sad to disappoint you as you have peaked and reached ye old bottom about four years ago.
Yes, celebrations are in order for Montenegro especially when poverty is rife with 80% living on or below the poverty line and services even in the capital are shabby at best. And what will happen when they join the EU you might ask? Nothing at all.
You see Montenegro already enjoys all that the EU has to offer otherwise without EU funds it would be chaos. So if the locals think it’s going to get better; sad to disappoint you as you have peaked and reached ye old bottom about four years ago.
Happy Independence Day Montenegro!
(Ian, UK, 21 May 2012 14:32)
Dear Ian,we Montenegrins are ethnical Serbs (Karadzic,Mladic and Slobodan Milosevic are Serbs from Montenegro) and the overwhelming majority of us wants Montenegro to be a part of the state of Serbia!
Just like Vojvodjanians,Belgraders,Sumadinci,Bosnian Serbs we Montenegrins are nothing but Serbs!
And that is why after the fall of the criminal Djukanovic regime the new government will hold a refrendum with the only goal in mind:
to make Montenegro part of an united Serbia ,nobody can surpress the will of the Montenegrinian people for that to happen!
In this state,those old communist autonomies which were deliberately designed to partion Serbia (Vojvodina,Montenegro) should be erased!
We want a strong Serbian state with strong local governments but without any regional idendities which would only weaken Serbia!
Yes, celebrations are in order for Montenegro especially when poverty is rife with 80% living on or below the poverty line and services even in the capital are shabby at best. And what will happen when they join the EU you might ask? Nothing at all.
You see Montenegro already enjoys all that the EU has to offer otherwise without EU funds it would be chaos. So if the locals think it’s going to get better; sad to disappoint you as you have peaked and reached ye old bottom about four years ago.
(sj, 21 May 2012 11:48)
Someone is obviously still bitter over Montenegro's independence. So bitter they make up statistics. There isn't statistics as such as to how many people are 'on the poverty line', however 7% of Montenegro's population live under the poverty line compared to 8.8% of Serbia's population. Not to mention that Montenegro's economy is growing at a faster rate than Serbia. The GDP (nominal) per capita in Montenegro is $6,877 compared to $5,816 in Serbia. The GDP (PPP) per capita in Montenegro is $11,545 compared to $10,642 in Serbia.
Sj just put Serbia instead of Montenegro then you got almost the same exact deal. Serbs cant stand any one that is not a delusional Greater bigger better Serb of Serbia. As I remember Kremlin Russians said they are better Serbs then the Serbs them self's lol where will all this nonsense end sj.
(Lenard, 21 May 2012 12:52)
Unfortunatly for you Croats the Serbs have only begun to piss on you from a very great height. These things take time and like a good wine you savor every drop so you don’t rush it. We now control the government as there are more Serbs at all levels in Zagreb than in Belgrade. Next we will slow tear Croatia apart because now we can and as Serbia becomes the energy hub of that entire region we will leave a small area around Zagreb as Croatia.
Oh the Kremlin is the next big thing in Europe; why even your Pope in Rome is kissing Russian a***. Enjoy!!!!
Someone is obviously still bitter over Montenegro's independence. So bitter they make up statistics. There isn't statistics as such as to how many people are 'on the poverty line', however 7% of Montenegro's population live under the poverty line compared to 8.8% of Serbia's population. Not to mention that Montenegro's economy is growing at a faster rate than Serbia. The GDP (nominal) per capita in Montenegro is $6,877 compared to $5,816 in Serbia. The GDP (PPP) per capita in Montenegro is $11,545 compared to $10,642 in Serbia.
Happy Independence Day Montenegro!
(Ian, UK, 21 May 2012 14:32)
It like reeling in fish, they can’t pass up a nibble - straight from the CIA worldbook. What does Montenegro produce to achieve this magnificent GDP PPP? The real estate boom finished about 2008 and we now have the EU in a deep recession while the US is experiencing deflation and its houses prices are falling dramatically and yet Montenegro is powering away. It only has tourism. You go in a little corner and give some thought about what you post . In plain term it’s called foot in mouth.
Oh you have mistaken my comment completely I am extremely happy that Montenegro has broken away as it one less group Serbia has to feed like Croatia or Slovenia, but Ian people like you think these places are magic then why not move to one of them? Croatia or Slovenia and Montenegro all live off tourism, something no other country has managed to achieve. So what do they do for the other 8 months of the year?
Montenegrins are a sort of Serbians or at least one needs a good microscope to discover the difference. So don’t present your figures as if they are to destroy our nervous systems. We are happy about our brothers ! Possibly they succeeded mostly in attracting the Russian money. But now Serbia has obtained the same chances for such investments. Montenegrins cannot alone withstand against the Albarkers and sooner or later they’ll need Serbia’s assist. And I am sure they will receive it. But for the time being the two countries should establish special relations.
Just like Vojvodjanians,Belgraders,Sumadinci,Bosnian Serbs we Montenegrins are nothing but Serbs!
Greetings from Serbian Podgorica!
I am glad that K-Albanians are not on your list. This proves that Kosova has nothing to do with Serbia. I got news for you though; "Even Montenegrians are distinct from Serbs and have nothing to do with each other".
Congrats Independence Day CG.
Sj just put Serbia instead of Montenegro then you got almost the same exact deal. Serbs cant stand any one that is not a delusional Greater bigger better Serb of Serbia. As I remember Kremlin Russians said they are better Serbs then the Serbs them self's lol where will all this nonsense end sj.
Weeks ago i travelled to Serbia via Montenegro. I could see clear sign of developents in Albania and Serbia, but i didn't notive nothing in Montenegro. Beside a recently contructed motorway, the buildings were falling apart, no investiment in infrastructure and maybe just an opinionin, a lot of unemployment (in podgorica, ulcinj and bar, it was easy to spot road full of young people in the middle of working hours). In my opinionin, Crna Gora was wrong voting pro indipendence. Serbia continues to use it's ports and sea. The only thing they won with the indipendence was the cancelations of some debts, but now they dont have investiment from belgrade and they are starting to feel the pain
No one in Serbia is against the idea of a separate Montenegrin state. You see historically Montenegro was always independent but always a Serbian country. The problem is now is Milo Djukanovic and his clan of criminals are trying to create an entire new nationality as well as church out of thin air.
Serbia needs to take one of 2 definitive stances in regards to Montenegro. They need to ask their friends in this country to vote out the Djukanovic's as he is not leading a Serbian friendly policy. This does not mean they MUST retract their independence you can keep it, but this criminal can no longer be tolerated. If Montenegro refuses then Serbia should slap sanctions on the country until that regime falls. This means no MOntenegrin students in Belgrade paying domestic fees, no putting up Montenegro's ambassador staffs in Serbian embassies world wide and nothing coming in or out of Montenegro to/from Serbia.
It is not against the people but Serbia should have no relations with this criminal. If Montenegro chooses a different path be it integration into the Serbian state or just good historic brotherly relations with Serbia, then we can pursue that path and you can have all of the things Serbia grants to you.
Lenard, you seem to have a underlying hate for Serbs and Serbia yet you come on a Serbian forum to spew your views. Has a Serb taken a female companion away from you at one point? I can't blame you for the hate, in Canada there is a saying "if Serbs are at a party, keep your girlfriends home".
Unfortunatly for you Croats the Serbs have only begun to piss on you from a very great height. These things take time and like a good wine you savor every drop so you don’t rush it. We now control the government as there are more Serbs at all levels in Zagreb than in Belgrade. Next we will slow tear Croatia apart because now we can and as Serbia becomes the energy hub of that entire region we will leave a small area around Zagreb as Croatia.
Oh the Kremlin is the next big thing in Europe; why even your Pope in Rome is kissing Russian a***. Enjoy!!!!
(sj, 21 May 2012 14:37)
You and others have been saying stuff like this for years, but what about Serbia has really improved from a nationalist perspective? All the heroes are in jail (or died there), Kosovo is no closer to being back in the fold, RS continues to squawk about independence but never seems to tell us when and how, exactly, that independence will come about, and Montenegro is now celebrating the 6th anniversary of its divorce from Serbia.
How can the Croatian parliament be so chock full of Serbs when hardly any Serbs remain after Krajina was cleansed in 1995? And even if there were hundreds of thousands of Serbs living in Croatia, why would the Croats allow them so much power in government? People constantly post on here about the strong presence of anti-Serb discrimination in Croatia. Your claim makes little sense.
Russia may be on the rise, but it remains to be seen how it will handle its growing strength. Again, its been rising for at least half a decade now, while the West declines, and yet in Serbia, we see horrendous unemployment, an ever-weakening currency and a heavily disgruntled electorate. Would it really have been so hard for the DS-led coalition to recognize Russia as a better partner these past four years -- if that were true? Think about it: Russia doesn't support the trials against Mladic, Karadzic, etc; Russia doesn't support Kosovo independence; Russia is anti-NATO; Russia is the dominant supplier of gas to Europe; Russia is growing economically while most of the EU is slumping...why would any Serb politician with half a brain focus so much on EU accession with so many goodies from Russia on the table?
I don't know what wine you've been savoring drop-by-drop all these years, but I'm guessing it's one of those cheap Australian reds I can buy at the supermarket for $7 a bottle.
Right, more than 90% of the new Fiats are being exported to the US (whatever happened to selling them to Russia?) and will be shipped through Luka Bar. (The Montenegrin papers may have the cost per car for port services - the figure I remember must include shipment to the US.) In any case, those cars rolling out of the old Zastava plant mean business for Montenegro.
Weeks ago i travelled to Serbia via Montenegro. I could see clear sign of developents in Albania and Serbia, but i didn't notive nothing in Montenegro. Beside a recently contructed motorway, the buildings were falling apart, no investiment in infrastructure and maybe just an opinionin, a lot of unemployment (in podgorica, ulcinj and bar, it was easy to spot road full of young people in the middle of working hours). In my opinionin, Crna Gora was wrong voting pro indipendence. Serbia continues to use it's ports and sea. The only thing they won with the indipendence was the cancelations of some debts, but now they dont have investiment from belgrade and they are starting to feel the pain
(tiranaboy, 21 May 2012 19:11)
I think you are wrong. Serbia is the only place in Balkan that with its unjustified desire to be a leader and not equal partner with other states is in dilemma between Russia and West. At least since Alexander the Great and Roman Empire the West is the most developed part of the World. Russia has been a military power, but never an example of development or civilization. So Montenegro has done the right choose the West and has let alone Serbia in it’s dilemma between Russia and West. The analysis of economic development can not be done by a travel with car. A lot of chaotic construction in Albania I don’t see as long term development but as destruction of environment. We can not know what economic development would had Montenegro if was still in Yugoslavia, but If before Serbia use the resources of Montenegro for free now Serbia has to pay for the Ports and sea of Montenegro. So economically Montenegro has profit and strategically in long-term has profit cause to the alliance with West.
I look to what will happen and unlike you who has a sore neck because you are turning and loking at the past of a wealthy and glorious west. Our heroes are in prison or dead thanks to the west because the Serbs made them look like the fools they really are lal Iraq Afghanistan Somalia and so on. Our people will compose songs and sing about Mladic and Karadzic etc and out future generations will be proud of their past, but pray tell me Nenad what will the Americans do for Bill Clinton? The only thing they woill remember Bill for is Monica and his pants. Which US president is revered since Roosevelt? Not ONE!!!!!!!!!
Kosovo needs to rot a lot more before Serbia takes over again. The best tactic is to leave it sink even further under UE control and this recession is going to do just that. Why do you think that the EU announced it disappointment with Boris Tadic losing office? Because he would have papered over with Kosovo and allowed the Albanian rabble to enter Serbia looking for work. Kosovo is a pot boiling and the EU are desperate to find a safety valve and Tadic was it, but now that Nikolic or should I say Valdimir Putin has the government in his hands its now going to get a thousand times tougher and the Albanians are going to watch as aid is given to the Serbs but they get nothing and if they lift a finger NATO will use live rounds.
I would declare RS insane to leave Bosnia now with the EU pouring money in and Dodik only has make mention of leaving Brussels rushes to Banja Luka offering more incentives. The three things that making money, comedy and breaking away have in common is timing and now is not the right time. I am delighted that Montenegro has gone. I’m not here in tears as Serbia has everything it needs but Montenegro is turning into another Kosovo.
Have a good look at the Croatian Government, a very close look mate. They have already announced that Bleiberg is nothing and Jasenovac was a crime against humanity. You think that all the Serbs have left Croatia; no they have not but they not in the same numbers of yesteryear. On the issue why has this government been allowed in office, it’s because the EU is so fed up and embarrassed by the like of HDZ and Vladimir Seks that they decided to remove them from office and never allow a fascist group in again. Look at the HDZ conference where even they are now declaring Jasenovac a crime. You just don’t get it do you? No one leaves with nothing and compensation will have to be paid to all that were kicked out. One small clause of the agreement signed between Zagreb and Belgrade states that if a family has paid rent for all this time they would be reimbursed for that rent. Let me put it another way, if Zargreb does not deal with it Brussels will. And Croatia does not have the money to deal with it.
The wine you get for $7 a bottle is crap for the US market as the good stuff goes to Asia but I maybe sipping too much wine but you my little friend are living with Snow White and reading how fantastic the west is while communist China keeps on propping your lot. Ask yourself why doesn’t the Pentagon take action since China kicked it out of the South China Sea? Perhaps you can explain that one as people like you have been denying this fact for a long time.
Ok, I was hoping some inquisitive Montenegrin would look up how much they can expect from handling those new Fiats, but I guess everybody's out celebrating.
According to http://www.pobjeda.me/2012/02/23/luka-bar-fiat-montekargo-i-grimaldi-danas-u-baru-potpisuju-ugovor/, the expected take for Montenegro from these cars will be about 10 million euros a year. A nice piece of cash, especially considering the size of the population. (How many tourist-days does that come to, I wonder??)
What use is it in arguing with Serbs when they are obviously jealous of Montenegro's progress? Just keep making Serbia hand over the cash to use the ports and let them kick and scream like little children. I too would be jealous if my country was a landlocked, uranium depleted infested, Russian satellite state like Serbia. Montenegro is naturally beautiful with beautiful people and a beautiful future!
(Wesley Clark, 22 May 2012 16:10)
Lol, well I doubt anybody in Serbia really cares THAT much about Montenegro. Normal, everyday Serbs, at least. Heck, the country hasn't even grown that much by population since Yugoslav times. They try to seperate themselves from an already moderate Serbian identity that Serbs just find it kinda funny, despite Montenegro being well tied in with Serbia culturally as well as historically, and even to another extent,Greek and even Bulgarian history.
Point is, nobody is "kicking and screaming" as you say. They just don't care.
They wouldn't mind going there for vacation, though :D Beautiful place.
What use is it in arguing with Serbs when they are obviously jealous of Montenegro's progress? Just keep making Serbia hand over the cash to use the ports and let them kick and scream like little children. I too would be jealous if my country was a landlocked, uranium depleted infested, Russian satellite state like Serbia. Montenegro is naturally beautiful with beautiful people and a beautiful future!
Ah, you crack me up. Actually, I think I swore a few months back not to bother arguing with you anymore and then forgot. I'm quickly reminded of what prompted my earlier remarks...
Not really sure how moderate trends in Croatian government equate to a quiet Serbian takeover of Zagreb politics, but I guess we'll call it poetic license on your part.
You're asking which presidents since Roosevelt have been revered by Americans? I can think of a bunch, and Clinton would definitely be one. OK, maybe not by Republicans, but even they probably admit in private that he was much better for the US than George W Bush. Anyway, besides Clinton, you have Kennedy, Eisenhower and yes, Reagan, though I personally think he's highly over-rated.
You're saying I'm denying our eviction from the South China Sea and blah blah blah, but that isn't true. I'm as convinced as anyone about the decline of the US but that's really got little to do with the plight of the Cetnik cause. You and I would probably agree a great deal on US economic, military, environmental and social woes, but when it comes to Serbian affairs -- what we're talking about here -- well, that's clearly a different story.
Sj just put Serbia instead of Montenegro then you got almost the same exact deal. Serbs cant stand any one that is not a delusional Greater bigger better Serb of Serbia. As I remember Kremlin Russians said they are better Serbs then the Serbs them self's lol where will all this nonsense end sj.
Yes, celebrations are in order for Montenegro especially when poverty is rife with 80% living on or below the poverty line and services even in the capital are shabby at best. And what will happen when they join the EU you might ask? Nothing at all.
You see Montenegro already enjoys all that the EU has to offer otherwise without EU funds it would be chaos. So if the locals think it’s going to get better; sad to disappoint you as you have peaked and reached ye old bottom about four years ago.
(sj, 21 May 2012 11:48)
Someone is obviously still bitter over Montenegro's independence. So bitter they make up statistics. There isn't statistics as such as to how many people are 'on the poverty line', however 7% of Montenegro's population live under the poverty line compared to 8.8% of Serbia's population. Not to mention that Montenegro's economy is growing at a faster rate than Serbia. The GDP (nominal) per capita in Montenegro is $6,877 compared to $5,816 in Serbia. The GDP (PPP) per capita in Montenegro is $11,545 compared to $10,642 in Serbia.
Sj just put Serbia instead of Montenegro then you got almost the same exact deal. Serbs cant stand any one that is not a delusional Greater bigger better Serb of Serbia. As I remember Kremlin Russians said they are better Serbs then the Serbs them self's lol where will all this nonsense end sj.
(Lenard, 21 May 2012 12:52)
Unfortunatly for you Croats the Serbs have only begun to piss on you from a very great height. These things take time and like a good wine you savor every drop so you don’t rush it. We now control the government as there are more Serbs at all levels in Zagreb than in Belgrade. Next we will slow tear Croatia apart because now we can and as Serbia becomes the energy hub of that entire region we will leave a small area around Zagreb as Croatia.
Oh the Kremlin is the next big thing in Europe; why even your Pope in Rome is kissing Russian a***. Enjoy!!!!
Happy Independence Day Montenegro!
(Ian, UK, 21 May 2012 14:32)
Dear Ian,we Montenegrins are ethnical Serbs (Karadzic,Mladic and Slobodan Milosevic are Serbs from Montenegro) and the overwhelming majority of us wants Montenegro to be a part of the state of Serbia!
Just like Vojvodjanians,Belgraders,Sumadinci,Bosnian Serbs we Montenegrins are nothing but Serbs!
And that is why after the fall of the criminal Djukanovic regime the new government will hold a refrendum with the only goal in mind:
to make Montenegro part of an united Serbia ,nobody can surpress the will of the Montenegrinian people for that to happen!
In this state,those old communist autonomies which were deliberately designed to partion Serbia (Vojvodina,Montenegro) should be erased!
We want a strong Serbian state with strong local governments but without any regional idendities which would only weaken Serbia!
Just like Vojvodjanians,Belgraders,Sumadinci,Bosnian Serbs we Montenegrins are nothing but Serbs!
Greetings from Serbian Podgorica!
I am glad that K-Albanians are not on your list. This proves that Kosova has nothing to do with Serbia. I got news for you though; "Even Montenegrians are distinct from Serbs and have nothing to do with each other".
Congrats Independence Day CG.
Montenegrins are a sort of Serbians or at least one needs a good microscope to discover the difference. So don’t present your figures as if they are to destroy our nervous systems. We are happy about our brothers ! Possibly they succeeded mostly in attracting the Russian money. But now Serbia has obtained the same chances for such investments. Montenegrins cannot alone withstand against the Albarkers and sooner or later they’ll need Serbia’s assist. And I am sure they will receive it. But for the time being the two countries should establish special relations.
Yes, celebrations are in order for Montenegro especially when poverty is rife with 80% living on or below the poverty line and services even in the capital are shabby at best. And what will happen when they join the EU you might ask? Nothing at all.
You see Montenegro already enjoys all that the EU has to offer otherwise without EU funds it would be chaos. So if the locals think it’s going to get better; sad to disappoint you as you have peaked and reached ye old bottom about four years ago.
Someone is obviously still bitter over Montenegro's independence. So bitter they make up statistics. There isn't statistics as such as to how many people are 'on the poverty line', however 7% of Montenegro's population live under the poverty line compared to 8.8% of Serbia's population. Not to mention that Montenegro's economy is growing at a faster rate than Serbia. The GDP (nominal) per capita in Montenegro is $6,877 compared to $5,816 in Serbia. The GDP (PPP) per capita in Montenegro is $11,545 compared to $10,642 in Serbia.
Happy Independence Day Montenegro!
(Ian, UK, 21 May 2012 14:32)
It like reeling in fish, they can’t pass up a nibble - straight from the CIA worldbook. What does Montenegro produce to achieve this magnificent GDP PPP? The real estate boom finished about 2008 and we now have the EU in a deep recession while the US is experiencing deflation and its houses prices are falling dramatically and yet Montenegro is powering away. It only has tourism. You go in a little corner and give some thought about what you post . In plain term it’s called foot in mouth.
Oh you have mistaken my comment completely I am extremely happy that Montenegro has broken away as it one less group Serbia has to feed like Croatia or Slovenia, but Ian people like you think these places are magic then why not move to one of them? Croatia or Slovenia and Montenegro all live off tourism, something no other country has managed to achieve. So what do they do for the other 8 months of the year?
No one in Serbia is against the idea of a separate Montenegrin state. You see historically Montenegro was always independent but always a Serbian country. The problem is now is Milo Djukanovic and his clan of criminals are trying to create an entire new nationality as well as church out of thin air.
Serbia needs to take one of 2 definitive stances in regards to Montenegro. They need to ask their friends in this country to vote out the Djukanovic's as he is not leading a Serbian friendly policy. This does not mean they MUST retract their independence you can keep it, but this criminal can no longer be tolerated. If Montenegro refuses then Serbia should slap sanctions on the country until that regime falls. This means no MOntenegrin students in Belgrade paying domestic fees, no putting up Montenegro's ambassador staffs in Serbian embassies world wide and nothing coming in or out of Montenegro to/from Serbia.
It is not against the people but Serbia should have no relations with this criminal. If Montenegro chooses a different path be it integration into the Serbian state or just good historic brotherly relations with Serbia, then we can pursue that path and you can have all of the things Serbia grants to you.
Lenard, you seem to have a underlying hate for Serbs and Serbia yet you come on a Serbian forum to spew your views. Has a Serb taken a female companion away from you at one point? I can't blame you for the hate, in Canada there is a saying "if Serbs are at a party, keep your girlfriends home".
Weeks ago i travelled to Serbia via Montenegro. I could see clear sign of developents in Albania and Serbia, but i didn't notive nothing in Montenegro. Beside a recently contructed motorway, the buildings were falling apart, no investiment in infrastructure and maybe just an opinionin, a lot of unemployment (in podgorica, ulcinj and bar, it was easy to spot road full of young people in the middle of working hours). In my opinionin, Crna Gora was wrong voting pro indipendence. Serbia continues to use it's ports and sea. The only thing they won with the indipendence was the cancelations of some debts, but now they dont have investiment from belgrade and they are starting to feel the pain
Weeks ago i travelled to Serbia via Montenegro. I could see clear sign of developents in Albania and Serbia, but i didn't notive nothing in Montenegro. Beside a recently contructed motorway, the buildings were falling apart, no investiment in infrastructure and maybe just an opinionin, a lot of unemployment (in podgorica, ulcinj and bar, it was easy to spot road full of young people in the middle of working hours). In my opinionin, Crna Gora was wrong voting pro indipendence. Serbia continues to use it's ports and sea. The only thing they won with the indipendence was the cancelations of some debts, but now they dont have investiment from belgrade and they are starting to feel the pain
(tiranaboy, 21 May 2012 19:11)
I think you are wrong. Serbia is the only place in Balkan that with its unjustified desire to be a leader and not equal partner with other states is in dilemma between Russia and West. At least since Alexander the Great and Roman Empire the West is the most developed part of the World. Russia has been a military power, but never an example of development or civilization. So Montenegro has done the right choose the West and has let alone Serbia in it’s dilemma between Russia and West. The analysis of economic development can not be done by a travel with car. A lot of chaotic construction in Albania I don’t see as long term development but as destruction of environment. We can not know what economic development would had Montenegro if was still in Yugoslavia, but If before Serbia use the resources of Montenegro for free now Serbia has to pay for the Ports and sea of Montenegro. So economically Montenegro has profit and strategically in long-term has profit cause to the alliance with West.
Unfortunatly for you Croats the Serbs have only begun to piss on you from a very great height. These things take time and like a good wine you savor every drop so you don’t rush it. We now control the government as there are more Serbs at all levels in Zagreb than in Belgrade. Next we will slow tear Croatia apart because now we can and as Serbia becomes the energy hub of that entire region we will leave a small area around Zagreb as Croatia.
Oh the Kremlin is the next big thing in Europe; why even your Pope in Rome is kissing Russian a***. Enjoy!!!!
(sj, 21 May 2012 14:37)
You and others have been saying stuff like this for years, but what about Serbia has really improved from a nationalist perspective? All the heroes are in jail (or died there), Kosovo is no closer to being back in the fold, RS continues to squawk about independence but never seems to tell us when and how, exactly, that independence will come about, and Montenegro is now celebrating the 6th anniversary of its divorce from Serbia.
How can the Croatian parliament be so chock full of Serbs when hardly any Serbs remain after Krajina was cleansed in 1995? And even if there were hundreds of thousands of Serbs living in Croatia, why would the Croats allow them so much power in government? People constantly post on here about the strong presence of anti-Serb discrimination in Croatia. Your claim makes little sense.
Russia may be on the rise, but it remains to be seen how it will handle its growing strength. Again, its been rising for at least half a decade now, while the West declines, and yet in Serbia, we see horrendous unemployment, an ever-weakening currency and a heavily disgruntled electorate. Would it really have been so hard for the DS-led coalition to recognize Russia as a better partner these past four years -- if that were true? Think about it: Russia doesn't support the trials against Mladic, Karadzic, etc; Russia doesn't support Kosovo independence; Russia is anti-NATO; Russia is the dominant supplier of gas to Europe; Russia is growing economically while most of the EU is slumping...why would any Serb politician with half a brain focus so much on EU accession with so many goodies from Russia on the table?
I don't know what wine you've been savoring drop-by-drop all these years, but I'm guessing it's one of those cheap Australian reds I can buy at the supermarket for $7 a bottle.
I look to what will happen and unlike you who has a sore neck because you are turning and loking at the past of a wealthy and glorious west. Our heroes are in prison or dead thanks to the west because the Serbs made them look like the fools they really are lal Iraq Afghanistan Somalia and so on. Our people will compose songs and sing about Mladic and Karadzic etc and out future generations will be proud of their past, but pray tell me Nenad what will the Americans do for Bill Clinton? The only thing they woill remember Bill for is Monica and his pants. Which US president is revered since Roosevelt? Not ONE!!!!!!!!!
Kosovo needs to rot a lot more before Serbia takes over again. The best tactic is to leave it sink even further under UE control and this recession is going to do just that. Why do you think that the EU announced it disappointment with Boris Tadic losing office? Because he would have papered over with Kosovo and allowed the Albanian rabble to enter Serbia looking for work. Kosovo is a pot boiling and the EU are desperate to find a safety valve and Tadic was it, but now that Nikolic or should I say Valdimir Putin has the government in his hands its now going to get a thousand times tougher and the Albanians are going to watch as aid is given to the Serbs but they get nothing and if they lift a finger NATO will use live rounds.
I would declare RS insane to leave Bosnia now with the EU pouring money in and Dodik only has make mention of leaving Brussels rushes to Banja Luka offering more incentives. The three things that making money, comedy and breaking away have in common is timing and now is not the right time. I am delighted that Montenegro has gone. I’m not here in tears as Serbia has everything it needs but Montenegro is turning into another Kosovo.
Have a good look at the Croatian Government, a very close look mate. They have already announced that Bleiberg is nothing and Jasenovac was a crime against humanity. You think that all the Serbs have left Croatia; no they have not but they not in the same numbers of yesteryear. On the issue why has this government been allowed in office, it’s because the EU is so fed up and embarrassed by the like of HDZ and Vladimir Seks that they decided to remove them from office and never allow a fascist group in again. Look at the HDZ conference where even they are now declaring Jasenovac a crime. You just don’t get it do you? No one leaves with nothing and compensation will have to be paid to all that were kicked out. One small clause of the agreement signed between Zagreb and Belgrade states that if a family has paid rent for all this time they would be reimbursed for that rent. Let me put it another way, if Zargreb does not deal with it Brussels will. And Croatia does not have the money to deal with it.
The wine you get for $7 a bottle is crap for the US market as the good stuff goes to Asia but I maybe sipping too much wine but you my little friend are living with Snow White and reading how fantastic the west is while communist China keeps on propping your lot. Ask yourself why doesn’t the Pentagon take action since China kicked it out of the South China Sea? Perhaps you can explain that one as people like you have been denying this fact for a long time.
What use is it in arguing with Serbs when they are obviously jealous of Montenegro's progress? Just keep making Serbia hand over the cash to use the ports and let them kick and scream like little children. I too would be jealous if my country was a landlocked, uranium depleted infested, Russian satellite state like Serbia. Montenegro is naturally beautiful with beautiful people and a beautiful future!
Right, more than 90% of the new Fiats are being exported to the US (whatever happened to selling them to Russia?) and will be shipped through Luka Bar. (The Montenegrin papers may have the cost per car for port services - the figure I remember must include shipment to the US.) In any case, those cars rolling out of the old Zastava plant mean business for Montenegro.
Ok, I was hoping some inquisitive Montenegrin would look up how much they can expect from handling those new Fiats, but I guess everybody's out celebrating.
According to http://www.pobjeda.me/2012/02/23/luka-bar-fiat-montekargo-i-grimaldi-danas-u-baru-potpisuju-ugovor/, the expected take for Montenegro from these cars will be about 10 million euros a year. A nice piece of cash, especially considering the size of the population. (How many tourist-days does that come to, I wonder??)
What use is it in arguing with Serbs when they are obviously jealous of Montenegro's progress? Just keep making Serbia hand over the cash to use the ports and let them kick and scream like little children. I too would be jealous if my country was a landlocked, uranium depleted infested, Russian satellite state like Serbia. Montenegro is naturally beautiful with beautiful people and a beautiful future!
(Wesley Clark, 22 May 2012 16:10)
Lol, well I doubt anybody in Serbia really cares THAT much about Montenegro. Normal, everyday Serbs, at least. Heck, the country hasn't even grown that much by population since Yugoslav times. They try to seperate themselves from an already moderate Serbian identity that Serbs just find it kinda funny, despite Montenegro being well tied in with Serbia culturally as well as historically, and even to another extent,Greek and even Bulgarian history.
Point is, nobody is "kicking and screaming" as you say. They just don't care.
They wouldn't mind going there for vacation, though :D Beautiful place.
Ah, you crack me up. Actually, I think I swore a few months back not to bother arguing with you anymore and then forgot. I'm quickly reminded of what prompted my earlier remarks...
Not really sure how moderate trends in Croatian government equate to a quiet Serbian takeover of Zagreb politics, but I guess we'll call it poetic license on your part.
You're asking which presidents since Roosevelt have been revered by Americans? I can think of a bunch, and Clinton would definitely be one. OK, maybe not by Republicans, but even they probably admit in private that he was much better for the US than George W Bush. Anyway, besides Clinton, you have Kennedy, Eisenhower and yes, Reagan, though I personally think he's highly over-rated.
You're saying I'm denying our eviction from the South China Sea and blah blah blah, but that isn't true. I'm as convinced as anyone about the decline of the US but that's really got little to do with the plight of the Cetnik cause. You and I would probably agree a great deal on US economic, military, environmental and social woes, but when it comes to Serbian affairs -- what we're talking about here -- well, that's clearly a different story.
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