Wednesday, 16.05.2012.
09:32
The trial of former Republic of Srpska (RS) Army Commander Ratko Mladić started at 9:00 on Wednesday in the Hague Tribunal.
Izvor: B92
IMAGE SOURCE
pre 11 godina
Hold your high horse, Albanians and Bosniaks! Justice from Hague? really convincing? You certainly haven't consulted with your Muslin brothers and sisters in Iraq and Afghanistan, have you? They will tell you Hague detained a wrong guy.
pre 11 godina
well Dragan, the difference is that Germany refelected on it's own violent past, faced it will all consequences, went soul searching on what was done in it's name. I do not see that in big parts of the serbian society, and especially not in the ruling political class in Serbia. It is only fingerpointing, blaming others, and hate which people like you spread. Not even a hint of soul searching when it comes to facing your countries violent past. No sign or words of reconsiation. The world knows and didn't forget what happened in the name of serbian magalomania, and this trial will will be all over the press again, and remind everybody what happend. It is time that Serbia changes to become a better, peaceloving country.
pre 11 godina
Renko, I will absolutely not remain silent. I'm sure people like you who support anti-Serb double standards would like me to keep quiet, but sorry, aint gonna happen. Better yet, why don't you try telling the Jews to keep quiet about their holocaust, and see what kind of reaction you get.
I find it rather humorous that we have a German, who has albanian lovers (Willi Pfaff), lecturing us about war crimes and atrocities. Willi, who the hell do you think you are? Your country is the main reason for the horrors in ex-Yugoslavia, with your support of ethnic cleansing and genocide of Serbian populations in Croatia and Kosovo. Your former leaders Genscher and Scharping should be tried for war crimes.
pre 11 godina
Breaking news suggests that the Mladic trial has been suspended indefinitely. The alleged reason is serious mistakes in the prosecution case.
This is very bad news for the Hague tribunal.
What this means for Mladic is anybody's guess, but at this stage perhaps a trial in Serbia is possible.
pre 11 godina
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
(The Count of Kosova, 16 May 2012 19:34)
You, unfortunately, like a lot of people, seem to rely on newspaper reports because you can't be bothered to read for yourself the available evidence there is and actually think for yourself what it means and what the consequence are. You've made your own opinion and you only accept the facts that fit them. Everything else you consider irrelevant and you ignore it. It is exactly Dr. Goebble's practice of repeating something so often that people no longer question it and take it on face value as fact.
Why are you so desperate to call it genocide? Do you think it is a badge of honor that one willingly wears and gets you all sorts of freebies in perpituitam or as a status symbol with which to incessantly beat someone else with? "I am a victim of genocide therefore debate is closed and I have the last word. Questioning this means you have no moral values, your opinions are worthless regardless of your argument".
That's pathetic and has nothing to do with the world we live in today.
I don't call it genocide because I have bothered to extensively read up & which in my previous you ignore. Why do you insist that what is in fact a series of limited massacres and a war crime is in your opinion genocide? You're argument seems to be that "It is because someone else said so", i.e. some judges at the ICTY. End of.
Other commenters have dismissed Peggy's legitimate question about women & children and numbers as 'splitting hairs'. That's quite whacked to tell someone whether the murder of women and children and how many is irrelevant. It's not even an answer. Who exactly is being dark?
It is about law and the interpretation and abuse of definitions in law to achieve a goal, in the case of the former yugoslavia it is bound up in politics. Anyone who denies this needs their heads examined. A simple example is te ICTY deliberately filed away its investigation against Tomislav Mercep because they didn't want it to come in to public view against the Sljivcanin (sp?) and co's trial for the Ovcara massacre. It would contradict their re-writing of history that Mercep and his buddies were attacking and killing serbs there long before the serbs revolted against this behavior and what they were doing to the serbs in Vukovar which was the most mixed city in the former yug.
If lawyers can debate and discuss whether these points are relevant or not, then non-lawyers also have the right to do so. It is called freedom of speech. Some people don't like that so they are deliberately trying to equate what happened at Srebrenica with what happened to the jews when anyone who is educated and has bothered to inform themselves properly knows that the basic facts show that they have nothing to do with each other unless they think that Serbs=Nazis. That would be stupid considering the historical background of the people they were fighting. If that is the case, then black is white and white is black & the sun revolves around the earth.
Why don't some governments accept what happened to the Serbs in WWII as genocide or what happened to the armenians etc. etc.? Because the issue is massively political yet the same people who call Srebrenica genocide deny that politics has anything to do with it.
I have friends who are jewish, armenian, kurd etc. and none of them simply say that there can be no debate and try to shut it down. They are quite capable of explaining why they have their view without attacking someone else first as a 'denier'. Unfortunately that is not true here.
pre 11 godina
Willie Pfaff
Pity you and your Serb hating friends do not condemn NATO, particularly the USA for all the attrocities they have committed over the past decades and continue to do so regardless of the outcry against this crime.
The USA and NATO have murdered more innocent civilians, men women children and babies yet we see none of them on trial for those crimes??
If any one should be on trial for attrocities which are ongoing at the hands of NATO it should be these people
BILL CLINTON, HILLARY CLINTON, TONY BLAIR, GEORGE BUSH, MADELINE ALLBRIGHT, GEORGE W. BUSH, GENERAL WESLEY CLARKE, BARAK OBAMA, DAVID CAMERON, NIKOLAS SARKOZY, ANGELA MERKEL and every single NATO commander in Afghanistan, Kosovo, and all who took part in the attack on LIBYA and those who are doing their utmost best to destroy yet another country SYRIA.
To all you who are quick to condemn Mladic, those above names have committed more attrocities than any so called Serbian war criminal but I hear no outcry for those many hundreds of thousands of innocents who have died at their hands and still die each day.
Where is the justice for those people and where is your condemnation against those who have murdered them?? SHAME ON YOU HYPOCRITES.
pre 11 godina
it is schocking once more to see how serbs face their past and what was done in the name of their country. This trial will show the world once more how your heros acted, what unbelievale crimes they commited, and it will be very bad press for Serbia in years to come. All the horrible things done by your war heros will come to light again, and the world will read about it. Hopefully this will put enough pressure on the Belgrade politicians to finally make a complete U-turn and face your countries own sad, violent past.
pre 11 godina
Dragan, you just have to leave behind the tribalism and be a good world citizen. Let independent historians judge the history, establish why Yugoslavia broke up.
When a man is on trial for the death of 8,000 people, it would be more tasteful if you could honour the dead. After all, all the victims of these wars were Yugoslavs.
If the idea of honouring the dead is too much for you, beyond your capabilities, it would be better if you would honour them with your silence.
pre 11 godina
Who are these Western European countries to judge anyone? They have comitted so many crimes, starting from slavery and never paid for them. They still committ crimes today, Iraq, Afganistan, etc...USA of course, included in this bunch. One day the True court of God will judge these devils.
pre 11 godina
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
(The Count of Kosova, 16 May 2012 19:34)
--
If you consider that genocide, answer this, is the Dasht-i-Leili "genocide" also genocide? That also involved 8000 prisoners who were murdered by US and alliance troops. Check -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasht-i-Leili_massacre
The simple difference is that this crime was covered up and most people have not even heard of it. There are other instances such as the massacre in Fallujah and the use of chemical weapons? Look, the US is built on genocide so it's not surprising their soldiers continue to commit it around the world.
pre 11 godina
If you compare the amount of muslims General Mladic is acused of killing, that pales in comparison to the amount of muslim killings George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush each are responsible for and they are free as jail birds. MIGHT IS RIGHT!!
pre 11 godina
Whom started the Civil War and the Break-up of Yugoslavia,
with the backup and support of Germany-Austria-Hungary ?
They are the Guilty Ones.
I am fully convinced that this is not over yet.
Arn.Sweden.
(Arn. Sweden., 16 May 2012 20:36)
The Civil War started when Belgrade gave the order to the JNA to stop Slovenia and then Croatia from becoming independent.
Next question Arn.Serbia
pre 11 godina
The mothers of the Serb villagers killed by the blood-thirsty terrorists suppressed at Srebrenica were not there to support Ratko Mladic in the Hague. They were massacred, along with their husbands,daughters, sons, and children.
pre 11 godina
Whom started the Civil War and the Break-up of Yugoslavia,
with the backup and support of Germany-Austria-Hungary ?
They are the Guilty Ones.
I am fully convinced that this is not over yet.
Arn.Sweden.
pre 11 godina
It looks like Mladic is trying to postpone things as in the Karadzic and Seselj trials, but apparently it is not working this time:
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/mladic/tdec/en/120503.pdf
For more documents on this case:
http://www.icty.org/case/mladic/4
Everything is there on the ICTY web site, for everybody to see:
http://www.icty.org/
The 413 witness depositions will be there too. Curious how many are from the prosecution and how many from the defense.
pre 11 godina
It's a shame ole Ratko wont be hung when this is all over. What a disgrace to the human race this monster is.
pre 11 godina
As for being 'civilians' at Serbrenica, Nikolle is either lying, deluded or badly misinformed. Not even the ICTY dares to call them civilians and neatly ignores addressing that most of them are listed in ArBiH documents as soldiers of which according to previous ICTY documents, at least one third of those who left for Tuzla were armed (the NIOD report covers this too). These are mere 'details' for the humanitarian crowd who prefer to fit only the fact that suit them to their opinion. After all, we were told from the beginning of the war in Bosnia that genocide was taking place and over 200,000 moslems had been killed within the first year (legal eagles such Bassouni, Goldstone and others also peddled this rubbish) but even the ICTY with all its resources could only manage to fake it with the massacres at Srebrenica at the tail end of an extremely bitter and nasty civil-war.
*Go and read again the rulings at the ICTY and those of the dissenting judges.
(Aleks, 16 May 2012 13:47)
Aleks,
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
pre 11 godina
Mladic shamed Serbia.
Those who support him shame Serbia too.
pre 11 godina
Wezzers,
Waffen SS friend and Islamic fundamentalist jailbird Izetbegovic & Holocaust denying neo-ustasa Tudjman are all yours. The only thing you have proved is that you have been asleep since 1989 and missed a lot.
pre 11 godina
Simply stating "no, it isn't", isn't actually a rebuttal, except perhaps in a Monty Python sketch.
(Danilo, 16 May 2012 17:59)
Comparing Bosnia to the jews and world war is used by those who have weak arguments. Why should anyone argue with someone who descends to facile comparisons?
Now what would Mr. Hilter say?
pre 11 godina
Yugoslavia was country made up from 6 republics of which 2 declared independence and with that Yugoslavia stopped to exist.
Bosnia declared independence when majority of voters voted for.
Serbian party didnt like that so they declared open war against Bosnian Muslim with threats they will wipe out Bosnian Muslims from existance and soon after Serbian party called for troops with help of remaining Yugoslav Army (under Serb control) to attack Bosnian Muslims.
Many towns and cities came under direct attack,Serbian paramilitary troops went thru towns populated by Muslims and commited attrocities...some small town had 2000+ death tolls in matter of days where bigger cities like Banjaluka was slowly cleansed and majority populated capital Sarajevo put under siege and shelled for 4 years killing 12,000 people while starving surviving population.
85% of civilian casulties are Bosnian Muslims and remaning 15% are Catholics and Serbs.
20 years later Serbs are convincing themselves they are actually victims,they didnt commit any crimes,didnt kill anyone,didint destroy any city.
Completly delusional.
Good thing there is a world that doesn't forget! Check out this Serbian family portrait.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=serb+war+crimes+posters&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C1CHRG_enUS464US464&biw=1024&bih=651&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=b26uMNjuTeRVVM:&imgrefurl=http://www.photoconflict.com/case-studies/legal-use-of-photos-in-war-crimes-tribunals/serbia-milosevic-obit/&docid=J-BVU3qIDZQErM&imgurl=http://www.photoconflict.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Mladic-Wanted-Poster-610.jpg&w=610&h=897&ei=udKzT9noBY6w8ATc5snhCA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=420&sig=101545142053101454645&page=1&tbnh=152&tbnw=103&start=0&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:85&tx=71&ty=66
pre 11 godina
Why nobody mention that most of the Victims of Sarajevo was Serbs?Why they dont Judge the Real War-Crimes Solana,Clinton,Scharping,Taqi,Haradinaj,Oric ect?Because its Show from the Americans.Mladic is not guilty he is a Hero for all of Europe not only for the Serbs.But for every normal European.
pre 11 godina
danillo, the word genocide has been redifined. by its original definition it has a slightly different meaning.
one might wonder why a word, an abstraction that purely exists in accordance to its definition needs to be redefined. one might speculate that it wasn't for symantic or liguistic reasons, and if that is the case than all other reasons are politically motivated. the purpose of a word's definition is for liguistic reasons and by redifining it, you ignore its previous meaning.
pre 11 godina
Splitting Pears,
Not sure why b92 didn't publish my remarks the first time, so I'll try again.
Simply stating "no, it isn't", isn't actually a rebuttal, except perhaps in a Monty Python sketch.
pre 11 godina
11 counts of genocide?
This is ICTY Prosecution propaganda and grandstanding to the world media to prove how relevent and just their case is. Did someone say that the iCTY is not a political organ with and ax to grind???
They habitually inflate the charges to build public support but later are forced to drop most of them, the media ignoring it. Remember that they charged Milosevic with trying to create a greater serbia? They dropped that one too (Ashdown's napkin evidence didn't make the grade) but it made good copy and nobody pointed it out when it was dropped. It's a show, by showmen for show purposes to justify their purpose and the great expense. Only an idiot still believes that this has anything to do with reconciliation and closure. People do not forget.
pre 11 godina
"No it isn't.
(Splitting Pears, 16 May 2012 16:00)"
Yes it is.
pre 11 godina
To argue that Srebrenica isn't genocide because not enough were killed or not enough women were killed is a pretty macabre hair to split.
It's like arguing loudly that no Jews were murdered during WWII because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't a crime to kill Jews.
-
No it isn't. Why do people like you always bring up the jews in world war two for comparison? Why not the armenians, the East Timorese etc? Is that the best argument you have got or the only one or do you think that it is the ultimate answer to which there is not possible reply? What are you afraid of?
pre 11 godina
Peggy is wrong. It is not at all about numbers because the ICTY has charged Croatia and Sarajevo for genocide against the serbs in Mostar and their explusion from south west bosnia and Croatia also for Operations Flash and Storm. Oh no, but the ICTY hasn't done this. Wrong kind of 'genocide'.
pre 11 godina
"he was defending his people! "
yes, defending his people from unarmed civilians. what brave heros you have
pre 11 godina
nwo vs Orthodox Serbs. They let all the butchers of Serbs free while they only find Serbs guilty. Thanks brother Ratko!
pre 11 godina
Germany, so much your personal enemy, has long since made amends for the ills of its past. There is nothing in any of your comments which in any way points to an understanding of this.
Sorry if I have misjudged you, but I don't see the point in posting tribal postings here.
(Renko, 16 May 2012 14:31)
Well Renko, if Germany behaved like the neutered peacenik country it was supposed to be, I would have no problem with them. However, Germany bullied the rest of Europe into recognizing a neo-fascist state led by a Holocaust denier (Tudjman), and sent arms to their old ally Croatia. Germany is also doing everything they can to snatch Kosovo away from Serbia. They are behaving as if they have not learnt their lessons, and are once again being aggressive against Serbia. These are facts Renko, I base my opinions on facts and truth, you should try to do the same and don't just base it on anti-Serb propoganda you see splashed all over the ignorant media.
When I see Croatia bombed and sanctioned for the genoide that was Operation Storm, then I will know there is justice. However, the NATO war criminals actually planned and executed Operation Storm.
pre 11 godina
Mr Groome said crimes of sexual violence had played an integral part of the process of "taking over and ethnically cleansing Bosnia. While women were most often targeted for such crimes of terrible violation, men were also victims," he said.
pre 11 godina
(Wesley Clark, 16 May 2012 13:46)
Not only that we "loved" this men,we still love these men because they protected the Serb people in Bosnia from extinction and succeded in helping to create a free,prosperous and democratic Republika Srpska!
As for your Wesley Clark,he is a war criminal:
Mladic did not come to America to bomb Washington or New York like you did attacking a foreign country 6000 miles from your shores,he was defending his people!
Anyway,you are probably an Albanian troll who,in abscent of Albanian heroes needs to steal a foreign "hero" to show off with him...
You simply love other peoples stuff,don`t you?
pre 11 godina
The real disgrace is that the puppet government of Serbia handed over this hero to the NATO kangaroo 'court'. As for the the pathetic show trial itself, well NATO needs it, in order to justify its aggression and cover up its massacres of Serbian civilians.
pre 11 godina
Yes, "genocide" in this case is described as Serbs sticking their middle finger up at NATO and yes, we are guilty.
Those who truly suffered Genocide are Serbs, Jews, Armenians, native American Indians, Roma and so on.
Check -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lFWuGVE7rs
pre 11 godina
yes, murdering 8000 unarmed civilians should not count as genocide i agree. mercy killing is more appropriate.
(Nikolle, 16 May 2012 12:35)
Typical Albanian thinking,if we loose a war after committing horrendous war crimes ,than we throw away our weapons and suddenly become "civilians" so that we can get away with our crimes...
Sorry It didn`t work out that way in Srebrenica!
pre 11 godina
"The show trials go on, all the world's a stage. Isn't it interesting how the NATO war criminals work with organ snatchers like Thaci, Haradinaj..." Dragan
Isn't it interesting, Dragan, how none, not one single comment of yours ever rises above the lowest tribal level - why do you write comments at this agency and not some nationalist organ?
Why don't you pluck up the courage to reflect on your own tribe's crimes, and let the other tribes do the same? Germany, so much your personal enemy, has long since made amends for the ills of its past. There is nothing in any of your comments which in any way points to an understanding of this.
Sorry if I have misjudged you, but I don't see the point in posting tribal postings here.
pre 11 godina
NATO celebrating it´s victory just like it did to President Milosevic. Expect a hysterical bravado and self bragging in the coming day´s. In NATO´s show "tribunal" any orthodox Slav or Serb in particular who defended his country in the 90´s is guilty until proven otherwise, which will not happen because this is where NATO washes it´s hands on it´s murderous atrocities and ethnic cleansings in the Balkans.
By the time for the generals defence, western corporate media will go silent and the General will be ditched. Either "suicided" or "mistakenly" given the wrong medications by the NATO doctors.Standard procedure, case closed.
BTW. Besides occupations, wars and plague, Cinquième Colonne´s like "Danilo" and Natasha Kandic is the worst a sovereign country can get.
pre 11 godina
Genocide requires 'intent' to be proven as is the definition under the old meaning of genocide. The judges inferred* intent in absence of any proof (in the original case), they simply redefined the meaning of genocide to get a conviction in absence of the conclusion that they wished. When the original verdict came out, there were a slew of legal analyses published that drew this and other distinctions, including one of the original Nuremburg trial judges. Just repeating something endlessly doesn't make it so.
As for being 'civilians' at Serbrenica, Nikolle is either lying, deluded or badly misinformed. Not even the ICTY dares to call them civilians and neatly ignores addressing that most of them are listed in ArBiH documents as soldiers of which according to previous ICTY documents, at least one third of those who left for Tuzla were armed (the NIOD report covers this too). These are mere 'details' for the humanitarian crowd who prefer to fit only the fact that suit them to their opinion. After all, we were told from the beginning of the war in Bosnia that genocide was taking place and over 200,000 moslems had been killed within the first year (legal eagles such Bassouni, Goldstone and others also peddled this rubbish) but even the ICTY with all its resources could only manage to fake it with the massacres at Srebrenica at the tail end of an extremely bitter and nasty civil-war.
*Go and read again the rulings at the ICTY and those of the dissenting judges.
pre 11 godina
wtf.
I can't be a fifth columnist, because I'm just a visitor here, speaking my mind.
Too bad your country's so fragile that someone speaking their mind is capable of shattering it (in your eyes)
pre 11 godina
Look at that Mladic with the headphones on. He doesn't look so tough now does he? I hope each and every one of you Serbs takes a good look at him and realize that you're not above the law. Justice will find you no matter what rock you crawl under to hide. Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic... the list goes on and on. The Serb nation loved these men! Now, they are frail and answering for their crimes against humanity! Common theme in the balkan wars, Serb vs Croats, Serb vs Slovenians, Serb vs Bosnians, Serb vs Kosovars. The common theme is that everyone fought back and didn't allow Serbia to exterminate them.
pre 11 godina
The show trials go on, all the world's a stage. Isn't it interesting how the NATO war criminals work with organ snatchers like Thaci, Haradinaj, and Limaj, while releasing animals like Oric - and at the same time accusing Mladic of a fictitious 'genocide'. The NATO war criminals should read a history book about Jasenovac, perhaps then they would know what real genocide is and what the world means.
pre 11 godina
whoever is guilty let them be punished.
pre 11 godina
Peggy,
The word 'genocide' has already been defined in this context, and you know it.
To argue that Srebrenica isn't genocide because not enough were killed or not enough women were killed is a pretty macabre hair to split.
It's like arguing loudly that no Jews were murdered during WWII because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't a crime to kill Jews.
So, perhaps there's some hyper-specific truth in "No Jews were murdered during WWII", what why bother? What's the purpose? It's a pretty dark hair to split for no reason.
pre 11 godina
yes, murdering 8000 unarmed civilians should not count as genocide i agree. mercy killing is more appropriate.
pre 11 godina
It pleases me to see the butcher of Srebrenica facing justice for his crimes, the biggest atrocities on European soil since the WW2.
pre 11 godina
Are they going to first define the word "genocide" and then explain how is it that he allowed women and children to leave Srebrenica?
11 counts of genocide? Even if Srebrenica was considered that where was the other ten?
pre 11 godina
Talking about yourself again Lenard and you glorious Croatia? You just can't help throwing stones from inside your own glasshouse.
pre 11 godina
Lenard, you are still to account for all of the victims of Ustasa crimes during WWII and the war in the 90s, numbers which combine most likely amount to more than a million. So yes it is very rich of you and other Croats to make such statements, don't think that your devotion to Catholocism makes your people exempt from facing justice, the Catholic Church is itself very criminal, and a disgrace to Christianity.
pre 11 godina
What a waste of money give him the same justest he gave to 10's of thousands of murdered children ,woman and men. The more then a million ethnic cleansed robed raped starved brutalized traumatized from their homes city's and their country of Bosnia. By minority rebel war criminals all to make a greater Evil Serbia in a another country such vile evils not seen since WW2. Use the billions and counting for the innocent victims not for war criminals defence to spew their hatreds lies unbelievable propaganda of retarded vile evil minds.
pre 11 godina
Lenard, you are still to account for all of the victims of Ustasa crimes during WWII and the war in the 90s, numbers which combine most likely amount to more than a million. So yes it is very rich of you and other Croats to make such statements, don't think that your devotion to Catholocism makes your people exempt from facing justice, the Catholic Church is itself very criminal, and a disgrace to Christianity.
pre 11 godina
Talking about yourself again Lenard and you glorious Croatia? You just can't help throwing stones from inside your own glasshouse.
pre 11 godina
The show trials go on, all the world's a stage. Isn't it interesting how the NATO war criminals work with organ snatchers like Thaci, Haradinaj, and Limaj, while releasing animals like Oric - and at the same time accusing Mladic of a fictitious 'genocide'. The NATO war criminals should read a history book about Jasenovac, perhaps then they would know what real genocide is and what the world means.
pre 11 godina
Are they going to first define the word "genocide" and then explain how is it that he allowed women and children to leave Srebrenica?
11 counts of genocide? Even if Srebrenica was considered that where was the other ten?
pre 11 godina
"he was defending his people! "
yes, defending his people from unarmed civilians. what brave heros you have
pre 11 godina
(Wesley Clark, 16 May 2012 13:46)
Not only that we "loved" this men,we still love these men because they protected the Serb people in Bosnia from extinction and succeded in helping to create a free,prosperous and democratic Republika Srpska!
As for your Wesley Clark,he is a war criminal:
Mladic did not come to America to bomb Washington or New York like you did attacking a foreign country 6000 miles from your shores,he was defending his people!
Anyway,you are probably an Albanian troll who,in abscent of Albanian heroes needs to steal a foreign "hero" to show off with him...
You simply love other peoples stuff,don`t you?
pre 11 godina
Peggy,
The word 'genocide' has already been defined in this context, and you know it.
To argue that Srebrenica isn't genocide because not enough were killed or not enough women were killed is a pretty macabre hair to split.
It's like arguing loudly that no Jews were murdered during WWII because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't a crime to kill Jews.
So, perhaps there's some hyper-specific truth in "No Jews were murdered during WWII", what why bother? What's the purpose? It's a pretty dark hair to split for no reason.
pre 11 godina
The real disgrace is that the puppet government of Serbia handed over this hero to the NATO kangaroo 'court'. As for the the pathetic show trial itself, well NATO needs it, in order to justify its aggression and cover up its massacres of Serbian civilians.
pre 11 godina
Germany, so much your personal enemy, has long since made amends for the ills of its past. There is nothing in any of your comments which in any way points to an understanding of this.
Sorry if I have misjudged you, but I don't see the point in posting tribal postings here.
(Renko, 16 May 2012 14:31)
Well Renko, if Germany behaved like the neutered peacenik country it was supposed to be, I would have no problem with them. However, Germany bullied the rest of Europe into recognizing a neo-fascist state led by a Holocaust denier (Tudjman), and sent arms to their old ally Croatia. Germany is also doing everything they can to snatch Kosovo away from Serbia. They are behaving as if they have not learnt their lessons, and are once again being aggressive against Serbia. These are facts Renko, I base my opinions on facts and truth, you should try to do the same and don't just base it on anti-Serb propoganda you see splashed all over the ignorant media.
When I see Croatia bombed and sanctioned for the genoide that was Operation Storm, then I will know there is justice. However, the NATO war criminals actually planned and executed Operation Storm.
pre 11 godina
NATO celebrating it´s victory just like it did to President Milosevic. Expect a hysterical bravado and self bragging in the coming day´s. In NATO´s show "tribunal" any orthodox Slav or Serb in particular who defended his country in the 90´s is guilty until proven otherwise, which will not happen because this is where NATO washes it´s hands on it´s murderous atrocities and ethnic cleansings in the Balkans.
By the time for the generals defence, western corporate media will go silent and the General will be ditched. Either "suicided" or "mistakenly" given the wrong medications by the NATO doctors.Standard procedure, case closed.
BTW. Besides occupations, wars and plague, Cinquième Colonne´s like "Danilo" and Natasha Kandic is the worst a sovereign country can get.
pre 11 godina
yes, murdering 8000 unarmed civilians should not count as genocide i agree. mercy killing is more appropriate.
(Nikolle, 16 May 2012 12:35)
Typical Albanian thinking,if we loose a war after committing horrendous war crimes ,than we throw away our weapons and suddenly become "civilians" so that we can get away with our crimes...
Sorry It didn`t work out that way in Srebrenica!
pre 11 godina
Mladic shamed Serbia.
Those who support him shame Serbia too.
pre 11 godina
What a waste of money give him the same justest he gave to 10's of thousands of murdered children ,woman and men. The more then a million ethnic cleansed robed raped starved brutalized traumatized from their homes city's and their country of Bosnia. By minority rebel war criminals all to make a greater Evil Serbia in a another country such vile evils not seen since WW2. Use the billions and counting for the innocent victims not for war criminals defence to spew their hatreds lies unbelievable propaganda of retarded vile evil minds.
pre 11 godina
It pleases me to see the butcher of Srebrenica facing justice for his crimes, the biggest atrocities on European soil since the WW2.
pre 11 godina
Genocide requires 'intent' to be proven as is the definition under the old meaning of genocide. The judges inferred* intent in absence of any proof (in the original case), they simply redefined the meaning of genocide to get a conviction in absence of the conclusion that they wished. When the original verdict came out, there were a slew of legal analyses published that drew this and other distinctions, including one of the original Nuremburg trial judges. Just repeating something endlessly doesn't make it so.
As for being 'civilians' at Serbrenica, Nikolle is either lying, deluded or badly misinformed. Not even the ICTY dares to call them civilians and neatly ignores addressing that most of them are listed in ArBiH documents as soldiers of which according to previous ICTY documents, at least one third of those who left for Tuzla were armed (the NIOD report covers this too). These are mere 'details' for the humanitarian crowd who prefer to fit only the fact that suit them to their opinion. After all, we were told from the beginning of the war in Bosnia that genocide was taking place and over 200,000 moslems had been killed within the first year (legal eagles such Bassouni, Goldstone and others also peddled this rubbish) but even the ICTY with all its resources could only manage to fake it with the massacres at Srebrenica at the tail end of an extremely bitter and nasty civil-war.
*Go and read again the rulings at the ICTY and those of the dissenting judges.
pre 11 godina
Look at that Mladic with the headphones on. He doesn't look so tough now does he? I hope each and every one of you Serbs takes a good look at him and realize that you're not above the law. Justice will find you no matter what rock you crawl under to hide. Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic... the list goes on and on. The Serb nation loved these men! Now, they are frail and answering for their crimes against humanity! Common theme in the balkan wars, Serb vs Croats, Serb vs Slovenians, Serb vs Bosnians, Serb vs Kosovars. The common theme is that everyone fought back and didn't allow Serbia to exterminate them.
pre 11 godina
Yes, "genocide" in this case is described as Serbs sticking their middle finger up at NATO and yes, we are guilty.
Those who truly suffered Genocide are Serbs, Jews, Armenians, native American Indians, Roma and so on.
Check -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lFWuGVE7rs
pre 11 godina
wtf.
I can't be a fifth columnist, because I'm just a visitor here, speaking my mind.
Too bad your country's so fragile that someone speaking their mind is capable of shattering it (in your eyes)
pre 11 godina
nwo vs Orthodox Serbs. They let all the butchers of Serbs free while they only find Serbs guilty. Thanks brother Ratko!
pre 11 godina
Why nobody mention that most of the Victims of Sarajevo was Serbs?Why they dont Judge the Real War-Crimes Solana,Clinton,Scharping,Taqi,Haradinaj,Oric ect?Because its Show from the Americans.Mladic is not guilty he is a Hero for all of Europe not only for the Serbs.But for every normal European.
pre 11 godina
Whom started the Civil War and the Break-up of Yugoslavia,
with the backup and support of Germany-Austria-Hungary ?
They are the Guilty Ones.
I am fully convinced that this is not over yet.
Arn.Sweden.
pre 11 godina
whoever is guilty let them be punished.
pre 11 godina
"The show trials go on, all the world's a stage. Isn't it interesting how the NATO war criminals work with organ snatchers like Thaci, Haradinaj..." Dragan
Isn't it interesting, Dragan, how none, not one single comment of yours ever rises above the lowest tribal level - why do you write comments at this agency and not some nationalist organ?
Why don't you pluck up the courage to reflect on your own tribe's crimes, and let the other tribes do the same? Germany, so much your personal enemy, has long since made amends for the ills of its past. There is nothing in any of your comments which in any way points to an understanding of this.
Sorry if I have misjudged you, but I don't see the point in posting tribal postings here.
pre 11 godina
Peggy is wrong. It is not at all about numbers because the ICTY has charged Croatia and Sarajevo for genocide against the serbs in Mostar and their explusion from south west bosnia and Croatia also for Operations Flash and Storm. Oh no, but the ICTY hasn't done this. Wrong kind of 'genocide'.
pre 11 godina
Wezzers,
Waffen SS friend and Islamic fundamentalist jailbird Izetbegovic & Holocaust denying neo-ustasa Tudjman are all yours. The only thing you have proved is that you have been asleep since 1989 and missed a lot.
pre 11 godina
As for being 'civilians' at Serbrenica, Nikolle is either lying, deluded or badly misinformed. Not even the ICTY dares to call them civilians and neatly ignores addressing that most of them are listed in ArBiH documents as soldiers of which according to previous ICTY documents, at least one third of those who left for Tuzla were armed (the NIOD report covers this too). These are mere 'details' for the humanitarian crowd who prefer to fit only the fact that suit them to their opinion. After all, we were told from the beginning of the war in Bosnia that genocide was taking place and over 200,000 moslems had been killed within the first year (legal eagles such Bassouni, Goldstone and others also peddled this rubbish) but even the ICTY with all its resources could only manage to fake it with the massacres at Srebrenica at the tail end of an extremely bitter and nasty civil-war.
*Go and read again the rulings at the ICTY and those of the dissenting judges.
(Aleks, 16 May 2012 13:47)
Aleks,
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
pre 11 godina
Mr Groome said crimes of sexual violence had played an integral part of the process of "taking over and ethnically cleansing Bosnia. While women were most often targeted for such crimes of terrible violation, men were also victims," he said.
pre 11 godina
11 counts of genocide?
This is ICTY Prosecution propaganda and grandstanding to the world media to prove how relevent and just their case is. Did someone say that the iCTY is not a political organ with and ax to grind???
They habitually inflate the charges to build public support but later are forced to drop most of them, the media ignoring it. Remember that they charged Milosevic with trying to create a greater serbia? They dropped that one too (Ashdown's napkin evidence didn't make the grade) but it made good copy and nobody pointed it out when it was dropped. It's a show, by showmen for show purposes to justify their purpose and the great expense. Only an idiot still believes that this has anything to do with reconciliation and closure. People do not forget.
pre 11 godina
Splitting Pears,
Not sure why b92 didn't publish my remarks the first time, so I'll try again.
Simply stating "no, it isn't", isn't actually a rebuttal, except perhaps in a Monty Python sketch.
pre 11 godina
Yugoslavia was country made up from 6 republics of which 2 declared independence and with that Yugoslavia stopped to exist.
Bosnia declared independence when majority of voters voted for.
Serbian party didnt like that so they declared open war against Bosnian Muslim with threats they will wipe out Bosnian Muslims from existance and soon after Serbian party called for troops with help of remaining Yugoslav Army (under Serb control) to attack Bosnian Muslims.
Many towns and cities came under direct attack,Serbian paramilitary troops went thru towns populated by Muslims and commited attrocities...some small town had 2000+ death tolls in matter of days where bigger cities like Banjaluka was slowly cleansed and majority populated capital Sarajevo put under siege and shelled for 4 years killing 12,000 people while starving surviving population.
85% of civilian casulties are Bosnian Muslims and remaning 15% are Catholics and Serbs.
20 years later Serbs are convincing themselves they are actually victims,they didnt commit any crimes,didnt kill anyone,didint destroy any city.
Completly delusional.
Good thing there is a world that doesn't forget! Check out this Serbian family portrait.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=serb+war+crimes+posters&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C1CHRG_enUS464US464&biw=1024&bih=651&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=b26uMNjuTeRVVM:&imgrefurl=http://www.photoconflict.com/case-studies/legal-use-of-photos-in-war-crimes-tribunals/serbia-milosevic-obit/&docid=J-BVU3qIDZQErM&imgurl=http://www.photoconflict.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Mladic-Wanted-Poster-610.jpg&w=610&h=897&ei=udKzT9noBY6w8ATc5snhCA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=420&sig=101545142053101454645&page=1&tbnh=152&tbnw=103&start=0&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:85&tx=71&ty=66
pre 11 godina
It's a shame ole Ratko wont be hung when this is all over. What a disgrace to the human race this monster is.
pre 11 godina
Whom started the Civil War and the Break-up of Yugoslavia,
with the backup and support of Germany-Austria-Hungary ?
They are the Guilty Ones.
I am fully convinced that this is not over yet.
Arn.Sweden.
(Arn. Sweden., 16 May 2012 20:36)
The Civil War started when Belgrade gave the order to the JNA to stop Slovenia and then Croatia from becoming independent.
Next question Arn.Serbia
pre 11 godina
yes, murdering 8000 unarmed civilians should not count as genocide i agree. mercy killing is more appropriate.
pre 11 godina
To argue that Srebrenica isn't genocide because not enough were killed or not enough women were killed is a pretty macabre hair to split.
It's like arguing loudly that no Jews were murdered during WWII because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't a crime to kill Jews.
-
No it isn't. Why do people like you always bring up the jews in world war two for comparison? Why not the armenians, the East Timorese etc? Is that the best argument you have got or the only one or do you think that it is the ultimate answer to which there is not possible reply? What are you afraid of?
pre 11 godina
It looks like Mladic is trying to postpone things as in the Karadzic and Seselj trials, but apparently it is not working this time:
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/mladic/tdec/en/120503.pdf
For more documents on this case:
http://www.icty.org/case/mladic/4
Everything is there on the ICTY web site, for everybody to see:
http://www.icty.org/
The 413 witness depositions will be there too. Curious how many are from the prosecution and how many from the defense.
pre 11 godina
danillo, the word genocide has been redifined. by its original definition it has a slightly different meaning.
one might wonder why a word, an abstraction that purely exists in accordance to its definition needs to be redefined. one might speculate that it wasn't for symantic or liguistic reasons, and if that is the case than all other reasons are politically motivated. the purpose of a word's definition is for liguistic reasons and by redifining it, you ignore its previous meaning.
pre 11 godina
If you compare the amount of muslims General Mladic is acused of killing, that pales in comparison to the amount of muslim killings George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush each are responsible for and they are free as jail birds. MIGHT IS RIGHT!!
pre 11 godina
"No it isn't.
(Splitting Pears, 16 May 2012 16:00)"
Yes it is.
pre 11 godina
Simply stating "no, it isn't", isn't actually a rebuttal, except perhaps in a Monty Python sketch.
(Danilo, 16 May 2012 17:59)
Comparing Bosnia to the jews and world war is used by those who have weak arguments. Why should anyone argue with someone who descends to facile comparisons?
Now what would Mr. Hilter say?
pre 11 godina
The mothers of the Serb villagers killed by the blood-thirsty terrorists suppressed at Srebrenica were not there to support Ratko Mladic in the Hague. They were massacred, along with their husbands,daughters, sons, and children.
pre 11 godina
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
(The Count of Kosova, 16 May 2012 19:34)
--
If you consider that genocide, answer this, is the Dasht-i-Leili "genocide" also genocide? That also involved 8000 prisoners who were murdered by US and alliance troops. Check -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasht-i-Leili_massacre
The simple difference is that this crime was covered up and most people have not even heard of it. There are other instances such as the massacre in Fallujah and the use of chemical weapons? Look, the US is built on genocide so it's not surprising their soldiers continue to commit it around the world.
pre 11 godina
it is schocking once more to see how serbs face their past and what was done in the name of their country. This trial will show the world once more how your heros acted, what unbelievale crimes they commited, and it will be very bad press for Serbia in years to come. All the horrible things done by your war heros will come to light again, and the world will read about it. Hopefully this will put enough pressure on the Belgrade politicians to finally make a complete U-turn and face your countries own sad, violent past.
pre 11 godina
Willie Pfaff
Pity you and your Serb hating friends do not condemn NATO, particularly the USA for all the attrocities they have committed over the past decades and continue to do so regardless of the outcry against this crime.
The USA and NATO have murdered more innocent civilians, men women children and babies yet we see none of them on trial for those crimes??
If any one should be on trial for attrocities which are ongoing at the hands of NATO it should be these people
BILL CLINTON, HILLARY CLINTON, TONY BLAIR, GEORGE BUSH, MADELINE ALLBRIGHT, GEORGE W. BUSH, GENERAL WESLEY CLARKE, BARAK OBAMA, DAVID CAMERON, NIKOLAS SARKOZY, ANGELA MERKEL and every single NATO commander in Afghanistan, Kosovo, and all who took part in the attack on LIBYA and those who are doing their utmost best to destroy yet another country SYRIA.
To all you who are quick to condemn Mladic, those above names have committed more attrocities than any so called Serbian war criminal but I hear no outcry for those many hundreds of thousands of innocents who have died at their hands and still die each day.
Where is the justice for those people and where is your condemnation against those who have murdered them?? SHAME ON YOU HYPOCRITES.
pre 11 godina
Renko, I will absolutely not remain silent. I'm sure people like you who support anti-Serb double standards would like me to keep quiet, but sorry, aint gonna happen. Better yet, why don't you try telling the Jews to keep quiet about their holocaust, and see what kind of reaction you get.
I find it rather humorous that we have a German, who has albanian lovers (Willi Pfaff), lecturing us about war crimes and atrocities. Willi, who the hell do you think you are? Your country is the main reason for the horrors in ex-Yugoslavia, with your support of ethnic cleansing and genocide of Serbian populations in Croatia and Kosovo. Your former leaders Genscher and Scharping should be tried for war crimes.
pre 11 godina
well Dragan, the difference is that Germany refelected on it's own violent past, faced it will all consequences, went soul searching on what was done in it's name. I do not see that in big parts of the serbian society, and especially not in the ruling political class in Serbia. It is only fingerpointing, blaming others, and hate which people like you spread. Not even a hint of soul searching when it comes to facing your countries violent past. No sign or words of reconsiation. The world knows and didn't forget what happened in the name of serbian magalomania, and this trial will will be all over the press again, and remind everybody what happend. It is time that Serbia changes to become a better, peaceloving country.
pre 11 godina
Who are these Western European countries to judge anyone? They have comitted so many crimes, starting from slavery and never paid for them. They still committ crimes today, Iraq, Afganistan, etc...USA of course, included in this bunch. One day the True court of God will judge these devils.
pre 11 godina
Dragan, you just have to leave behind the tribalism and be a good world citizen. Let independent historians judge the history, establish why Yugoslavia broke up.
When a man is on trial for the death of 8,000 people, it would be more tasteful if you could honour the dead. After all, all the victims of these wars were Yugoslavs.
If the idea of honouring the dead is too much for you, beyond your capabilities, it would be better if you would honour them with your silence.
pre 11 godina
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
(The Count of Kosova, 16 May 2012 19:34)
You, unfortunately, like a lot of people, seem to rely on newspaper reports because you can't be bothered to read for yourself the available evidence there is and actually think for yourself what it means and what the consequence are. You've made your own opinion and you only accept the facts that fit them. Everything else you consider irrelevant and you ignore it. It is exactly Dr. Goebble's practice of repeating something so often that people no longer question it and take it on face value as fact.
Why are you so desperate to call it genocide? Do you think it is a badge of honor that one willingly wears and gets you all sorts of freebies in perpituitam or as a status symbol with which to incessantly beat someone else with? "I am a victim of genocide therefore debate is closed and I have the last word. Questioning this means you have no moral values, your opinions are worthless regardless of your argument".
That's pathetic and has nothing to do with the world we live in today.
I don't call it genocide because I have bothered to extensively read up & which in my previous you ignore. Why do you insist that what is in fact a series of limited massacres and a war crime is in your opinion genocide? You're argument seems to be that "It is because someone else said so", i.e. some judges at the ICTY. End of.
Other commenters have dismissed Peggy's legitimate question about women & children and numbers as 'splitting hairs'. That's quite whacked to tell someone whether the murder of women and children and how many is irrelevant. It's not even an answer. Who exactly is being dark?
It is about law and the interpretation and abuse of definitions in law to achieve a goal, in the case of the former yugoslavia it is bound up in politics. Anyone who denies this needs their heads examined. A simple example is te ICTY deliberately filed away its investigation against Tomislav Mercep because they didn't want it to come in to public view against the Sljivcanin (sp?) and co's trial for the Ovcara massacre. It would contradict their re-writing of history that Mercep and his buddies were attacking and killing serbs there long before the serbs revolted against this behavior and what they were doing to the serbs in Vukovar which was the most mixed city in the former yug.
If lawyers can debate and discuss whether these points are relevant or not, then non-lawyers also have the right to do so. It is called freedom of speech. Some people don't like that so they are deliberately trying to equate what happened at Srebrenica with what happened to the jews when anyone who is educated and has bothered to inform themselves properly knows that the basic facts show that they have nothing to do with each other unless they think that Serbs=Nazis. That would be stupid considering the historical background of the people they were fighting. If that is the case, then black is white and white is black & the sun revolves around the earth.
Why don't some governments accept what happened to the Serbs in WWII as genocide or what happened to the armenians etc. etc.? Because the issue is massively political yet the same people who call Srebrenica genocide deny that politics has anything to do with it.
I have friends who are jewish, armenian, kurd etc. and none of them simply say that there can be no debate and try to shut it down. They are quite capable of explaining why they have their view without attacking someone else first as a 'denier'. Unfortunately that is not true here.
pre 11 godina
Breaking news suggests that the Mladic trial has been suspended indefinitely. The alleged reason is serious mistakes in the prosecution case.
This is very bad news for the Hague tribunal.
What this means for Mladic is anybody's guess, but at this stage perhaps a trial in Serbia is possible.
pre 11 godina
Hold your high horse, Albanians and Bosniaks! Justice from Hague? really convincing? You certainly haven't consulted with your Muslin brothers and sisters in Iraq and Afghanistan, have you? They will tell you Hague detained a wrong guy.
pre 11 godina
What a waste of money give him the same justest he gave to 10's of thousands of murdered children ,woman and men. The more then a million ethnic cleansed robed raped starved brutalized traumatized from their homes city's and their country of Bosnia. By minority rebel war criminals all to make a greater Evil Serbia in a another country such vile evils not seen since WW2. Use the billions and counting for the innocent victims not for war criminals defence to spew their hatreds lies unbelievable propaganda of retarded vile evil minds.
pre 11 godina
yes, murdering 8000 unarmed civilians should not count as genocide i agree. mercy killing is more appropriate.
pre 11 godina
Look at that Mladic with the headphones on. He doesn't look so tough now does he? I hope each and every one of you Serbs takes a good look at him and realize that you're not above the law. Justice will find you no matter what rock you crawl under to hide. Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic... the list goes on and on. The Serb nation loved these men! Now, they are frail and answering for their crimes against humanity! Common theme in the balkan wars, Serb vs Croats, Serb vs Slovenians, Serb vs Bosnians, Serb vs Kosovars. The common theme is that everyone fought back and didn't allow Serbia to exterminate them.
pre 11 godina
"he was defending his people! "
yes, defending his people from unarmed civilians. what brave heros you have
pre 11 godina
Mladic shamed Serbia.
Those who support him shame Serbia too.
pre 11 godina
It pleases me to see the butcher of Srebrenica facing justice for his crimes, the biggest atrocities on European soil since the WW2.
pre 11 godina
"The show trials go on, all the world's a stage. Isn't it interesting how the NATO war criminals work with organ snatchers like Thaci, Haradinaj..." Dragan
Isn't it interesting, Dragan, how none, not one single comment of yours ever rises above the lowest tribal level - why do you write comments at this agency and not some nationalist organ?
Why don't you pluck up the courage to reflect on your own tribe's crimes, and let the other tribes do the same? Germany, so much your personal enemy, has long since made amends for the ills of its past. There is nothing in any of your comments which in any way points to an understanding of this.
Sorry if I have misjudged you, but I don't see the point in posting tribal postings here.
pre 11 godina
Yugoslavia was country made up from 6 republics of which 2 declared independence and with that Yugoslavia stopped to exist.
Bosnia declared independence when majority of voters voted for.
Serbian party didnt like that so they declared open war against Bosnian Muslim with threats they will wipe out Bosnian Muslims from existance and soon after Serbian party called for troops with help of remaining Yugoslav Army (under Serb control) to attack Bosnian Muslims.
Many towns and cities came under direct attack,Serbian paramilitary troops went thru towns populated by Muslims and commited attrocities...some small town had 2000+ death tolls in matter of days where bigger cities like Banjaluka was slowly cleansed and majority populated capital Sarajevo put under siege and shelled for 4 years killing 12,000 people while starving surviving population.
85% of civilian casulties are Bosnian Muslims and remaning 15% are Catholics and Serbs.
20 years later Serbs are convincing themselves they are actually victims,they didnt commit any crimes,didnt kill anyone,didint destroy any city.
Completly delusional.
Good thing there is a world that doesn't forget! Check out this Serbian family portrait.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=serb+war+crimes+posters&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C1CHRG_enUS464US464&biw=1024&bih=651&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=b26uMNjuTeRVVM:&imgrefurl=http://www.photoconflict.com/case-studies/legal-use-of-photos-in-war-crimes-tribunals/serbia-milosevic-obit/&docid=J-BVU3qIDZQErM&imgurl=http://www.photoconflict.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Mladic-Wanted-Poster-610.jpg&w=610&h=897&ei=udKzT9noBY6w8ATc5snhCA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=420&sig=101545142053101454645&page=1&tbnh=152&tbnw=103&start=0&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:85&tx=71&ty=66
pre 11 godina
Are they going to first define the word "genocide" and then explain how is it that he allowed women and children to leave Srebrenica?
11 counts of genocide? Even if Srebrenica was considered that where was the other ten?
pre 11 godina
yes, murdering 8000 unarmed civilians should not count as genocide i agree. mercy killing is more appropriate.
(Nikolle, 16 May 2012 12:35)
Typical Albanian thinking,if we loose a war after committing horrendous war crimes ,than we throw away our weapons and suddenly become "civilians" so that we can get away with our crimes...
Sorry It didn`t work out that way in Srebrenica!
pre 11 godina
Peggy,
The word 'genocide' has already been defined in this context, and you know it.
To argue that Srebrenica isn't genocide because not enough were killed or not enough women were killed is a pretty macabre hair to split.
It's like arguing loudly that no Jews were murdered during WWII because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't a crime to kill Jews.
So, perhaps there's some hyper-specific truth in "No Jews were murdered during WWII", what why bother? What's the purpose? It's a pretty dark hair to split for no reason.
pre 11 godina
wtf.
I can't be a fifth columnist, because I'm just a visitor here, speaking my mind.
Too bad your country's so fragile that someone speaking their mind is capable of shattering it (in your eyes)
pre 11 godina
As for being 'civilians' at Serbrenica, Nikolle is either lying, deluded or badly misinformed. Not even the ICTY dares to call them civilians and neatly ignores addressing that most of them are listed in ArBiH documents as soldiers of which according to previous ICTY documents, at least one third of those who left for Tuzla were armed (the NIOD report covers this too). These are mere 'details' for the humanitarian crowd who prefer to fit only the fact that suit them to their opinion. After all, we were told from the beginning of the war in Bosnia that genocide was taking place and over 200,000 moslems had been killed within the first year (legal eagles such Bassouni, Goldstone and others also peddled this rubbish) but even the ICTY with all its resources could only manage to fake it with the massacres at Srebrenica at the tail end of an extremely bitter and nasty civil-war.
*Go and read again the rulings at the ICTY and those of the dissenting judges.
(Aleks, 16 May 2012 13:47)
Aleks,
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
pre 11 godina
(Wesley Clark, 16 May 2012 13:46)
Not only that we "loved" this men,we still love these men because they protected the Serb people in Bosnia from extinction and succeded in helping to create a free,prosperous and democratic Republika Srpska!
As for your Wesley Clark,he is a war criminal:
Mladic did not come to America to bomb Washington or New York like you did attacking a foreign country 6000 miles from your shores,he was defending his people!
Anyway,you are probably an Albanian troll who,in abscent of Albanian heroes needs to steal a foreign "hero" to show off with him...
You simply love other peoples stuff,don`t you?
pre 11 godina
It's a shame ole Ratko wont be hung when this is all over. What a disgrace to the human race this monster is.
pre 11 godina
Lenard, you are still to account for all of the victims of Ustasa crimes during WWII and the war in the 90s, numbers which combine most likely amount to more than a million. So yes it is very rich of you and other Croats to make such statements, don't think that your devotion to Catholocism makes your people exempt from facing justice, the Catholic Church is itself very criminal, and a disgrace to Christianity.
pre 11 godina
Yes, "genocide" in this case is described as Serbs sticking their middle finger up at NATO and yes, we are guilty.
Those who truly suffered Genocide are Serbs, Jews, Armenians, native American Indians, Roma and so on.
Check -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lFWuGVE7rs
pre 11 godina
The real disgrace is that the puppet government of Serbia handed over this hero to the NATO kangaroo 'court'. As for the the pathetic show trial itself, well NATO needs it, in order to justify its aggression and cover up its massacres of Serbian civilians.
pre 11 godina
Germany, so much your personal enemy, has long since made amends for the ills of its past. There is nothing in any of your comments which in any way points to an understanding of this.
Sorry if I have misjudged you, but I don't see the point in posting tribal postings here.
(Renko, 16 May 2012 14:31)
Well Renko, if Germany behaved like the neutered peacenik country it was supposed to be, I would have no problem with them. However, Germany bullied the rest of Europe into recognizing a neo-fascist state led by a Holocaust denier (Tudjman), and sent arms to their old ally Croatia. Germany is also doing everything they can to snatch Kosovo away from Serbia. They are behaving as if they have not learnt their lessons, and are once again being aggressive against Serbia. These are facts Renko, I base my opinions on facts and truth, you should try to do the same and don't just base it on anti-Serb propoganda you see splashed all over the ignorant media.
When I see Croatia bombed and sanctioned for the genoide that was Operation Storm, then I will know there is justice. However, the NATO war criminals actually planned and executed Operation Storm.
pre 11 godina
NATO celebrating it´s victory just like it did to President Milosevic. Expect a hysterical bravado and self bragging in the coming day´s. In NATO´s show "tribunal" any orthodox Slav or Serb in particular who defended his country in the 90´s is guilty until proven otherwise, which will not happen because this is where NATO washes it´s hands on it´s murderous atrocities and ethnic cleansings in the Balkans.
By the time for the generals defence, western corporate media will go silent and the General will be ditched. Either "suicided" or "mistakenly" given the wrong medications by the NATO doctors.Standard procedure, case closed.
BTW. Besides occupations, wars and plague, Cinquième Colonne´s like "Danilo" and Natasha Kandic is the worst a sovereign country can get.
pre 11 godina
The show trials go on, all the world's a stage. Isn't it interesting how the NATO war criminals work with organ snatchers like Thaci, Haradinaj, and Limaj, while releasing animals like Oric - and at the same time accusing Mladic of a fictitious 'genocide'. The NATO war criminals should read a history book about Jasenovac, perhaps then they would know what real genocide is and what the world means.
pre 11 godina
Genocide requires 'intent' to be proven as is the definition under the old meaning of genocide. The judges inferred* intent in absence of any proof (in the original case), they simply redefined the meaning of genocide to get a conviction in absence of the conclusion that they wished. When the original verdict came out, there were a slew of legal analyses published that drew this and other distinctions, including one of the original Nuremburg trial judges. Just repeating something endlessly doesn't make it so.
As for being 'civilians' at Serbrenica, Nikolle is either lying, deluded or badly misinformed. Not even the ICTY dares to call them civilians and neatly ignores addressing that most of them are listed in ArBiH documents as soldiers of which according to previous ICTY documents, at least one third of those who left for Tuzla were armed (the NIOD report covers this too). These are mere 'details' for the humanitarian crowd who prefer to fit only the fact that suit them to their opinion. After all, we were told from the beginning of the war in Bosnia that genocide was taking place and over 200,000 moslems had been killed within the first year (legal eagles such Bassouni, Goldstone and others also peddled this rubbish) but even the ICTY with all its resources could only manage to fake it with the massacres at Srebrenica at the tail end of an extremely bitter and nasty civil-war.
*Go and read again the rulings at the ICTY and those of the dissenting judges.
pre 11 godina
Talking about yourself again Lenard and you glorious Croatia? You just can't help throwing stones from inside your own glasshouse.
pre 11 godina
nwo vs Orthodox Serbs. They let all the butchers of Serbs free while they only find Serbs guilty. Thanks brother Ratko!
pre 11 godina
Why nobody mention that most of the Victims of Sarajevo was Serbs?Why they dont Judge the Real War-Crimes Solana,Clinton,Scharping,Taqi,Haradinaj,Oric ect?Because its Show from the Americans.Mladic is not guilty he is a Hero for all of Europe not only for the Serbs.But for every normal European.
pre 11 godina
Wezzers,
Waffen SS friend and Islamic fundamentalist jailbird Izetbegovic & Holocaust denying neo-ustasa Tudjman are all yours. The only thing you have proved is that you have been asleep since 1989 and missed a lot.
pre 11 godina
Whom started the Civil War and the Break-up of Yugoslavia,
with the backup and support of Germany-Austria-Hungary ?
They are the Guilty Ones.
I am fully convinced that this is not over yet.
Arn.Sweden.
pre 11 godina
To argue that Srebrenica isn't genocide because not enough were killed or not enough women were killed is a pretty macabre hair to split.
It's like arguing loudly that no Jews were murdered during WWII because "murder" describes a crime under law and it wasn't a crime to kill Jews.
-
No it isn't. Why do people like you always bring up the jews in world war two for comparison? Why not the armenians, the East Timorese etc? Is that the best argument you have got or the only one or do you think that it is the ultimate answer to which there is not possible reply? What are you afraid of?
pre 11 godina
Splitting Pears,
Not sure why b92 didn't publish my remarks the first time, so I'll try again.
Simply stating "no, it isn't", isn't actually a rebuttal, except perhaps in a Monty Python sketch.
pre 11 godina
Mr Groome said crimes of sexual violence had played an integral part of the process of "taking over and ethnically cleansing Bosnia. While women were most often targeted for such crimes of terrible violation, men were also victims," he said.
pre 11 godina
Peggy is wrong. It is not at all about numbers because the ICTY has charged Croatia and Sarajevo for genocide against the serbs in Mostar and their explusion from south west bosnia and Croatia also for Operations Flash and Storm. Oh no, but the ICTY hasn't done this. Wrong kind of 'genocide'.
pre 11 godina
Simply stating "no, it isn't", isn't actually a rebuttal, except perhaps in a Monty Python sketch.
(Danilo, 16 May 2012 17:59)
Comparing Bosnia to the jews and world war is used by those who have weak arguments. Why should anyone argue with someone who descends to facile comparisons?
Now what would Mr. Hilter say?
pre 11 godina
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
(The Count of Kosova, 16 May 2012 19:34)
--
If you consider that genocide, answer this, is the Dasht-i-Leili "genocide" also genocide? That also involved 8000 prisoners who were murdered by US and alliance troops. Check -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasht-i-Leili_massacre
The simple difference is that this crime was covered up and most people have not even heard of it. There are other instances such as the massacre in Fallujah and the use of chemical weapons? Look, the US is built on genocide so it's not surprising their soldiers continue to commit it around the world.
pre 11 godina
If you compare the amount of muslims General Mladic is acused of killing, that pales in comparison to the amount of muslim killings George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush each are responsible for and they are free as jail birds. MIGHT IS RIGHT!!
pre 11 godina
Whom started the Civil War and the Break-up of Yugoslavia,
with the backup and support of Germany-Austria-Hungary ?
They are the Guilty Ones.
I am fully convinced that this is not over yet.
Arn.Sweden.
(Arn. Sweden., 16 May 2012 20:36)
The Civil War started when Belgrade gave the order to the JNA to stop Slovenia and then Croatia from becoming independent.
Next question Arn.Serbia
pre 11 godina
it is schocking once more to see how serbs face their past and what was done in the name of their country. This trial will show the world once more how your heros acted, what unbelievale crimes they commited, and it will be very bad press for Serbia in years to come. All the horrible things done by your war heros will come to light again, and the world will read about it. Hopefully this will put enough pressure on the Belgrade politicians to finally make a complete U-turn and face your countries own sad, violent past.
pre 11 godina
The mothers of the Serb villagers killed by the blood-thirsty terrorists suppressed at Srebrenica were not there to support Ratko Mladic in the Hague. They were massacred, along with their husbands,daughters, sons, and children.
pre 11 godina
Renko, I will absolutely not remain silent. I'm sure people like you who support anti-Serb double standards would like me to keep quiet, but sorry, aint gonna happen. Better yet, why don't you try telling the Jews to keep quiet about their holocaust, and see what kind of reaction you get.
I find it rather humorous that we have a German, who has albanian lovers (Willi Pfaff), lecturing us about war crimes and atrocities. Willi, who the hell do you think you are? Your country is the main reason for the horrors in ex-Yugoslavia, with your support of ethnic cleansing and genocide of Serbian populations in Croatia and Kosovo. Your former leaders Genscher and Scharping should be tried for war crimes.
pre 11 godina
"No it isn't.
(Splitting Pears, 16 May 2012 16:00)"
Yes it is.
pre 11 godina
11 counts of genocide?
This is ICTY Prosecution propaganda and grandstanding to the world media to prove how relevent and just their case is. Did someone say that the iCTY is not a political organ with and ax to grind???
They habitually inflate the charges to build public support but later are forced to drop most of them, the media ignoring it. Remember that they charged Milosevic with trying to create a greater serbia? They dropped that one too (Ashdown's napkin evidence didn't make the grade) but it made good copy and nobody pointed it out when it was dropped. It's a show, by showmen for show purposes to justify their purpose and the great expense. Only an idiot still believes that this has anything to do with reconciliation and closure. People do not forget.
pre 11 godina
danillo, the word genocide has been redifined. by its original definition it has a slightly different meaning.
one might wonder why a word, an abstraction that purely exists in accordance to its definition needs to be redefined. one might speculate that it wasn't for symantic or liguistic reasons, and if that is the case than all other reasons are politically motivated. the purpose of a word's definition is for liguistic reasons and by redifining it, you ignore its previous meaning.
pre 11 godina
It looks like Mladic is trying to postpone things as in the Karadzic and Seselj trials, but apparently it is not working this time:
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/mladic/tdec/en/120503.pdf
For more documents on this case:
http://www.icty.org/case/mladic/4
Everything is there on the ICTY web site, for everybody to see:
http://www.icty.org/
The 413 witness depositions will be there too. Curious how many are from the prosecution and how many from the defense.
pre 11 godina
Dragan, you just have to leave behind the tribalism and be a good world citizen. Let independent historians judge the history, establish why Yugoslavia broke up.
When a man is on trial for the death of 8,000 people, it would be more tasteful if you could honour the dead. After all, all the victims of these wars were Yugoslavs.
If the idea of honouring the dead is too much for you, beyond your capabilities, it would be better if you would honour them with your silence.
pre 11 godina
Breaking news suggests that the Mladic trial has been suspended indefinitely. The alleged reason is serious mistakes in the prosecution case.
This is very bad news for the Hague tribunal.
What this means for Mladic is anybody's guess, but at this stage perhaps a trial in Serbia is possible.
pre 11 godina
whoever is guilty let them be punished.
pre 11 godina
Willie Pfaff
Pity you and your Serb hating friends do not condemn NATO, particularly the USA for all the attrocities they have committed over the past decades and continue to do so regardless of the outcry against this crime.
The USA and NATO have murdered more innocent civilians, men women children and babies yet we see none of them on trial for those crimes??
If any one should be on trial for attrocities which are ongoing at the hands of NATO it should be these people
BILL CLINTON, HILLARY CLINTON, TONY BLAIR, GEORGE BUSH, MADELINE ALLBRIGHT, GEORGE W. BUSH, GENERAL WESLEY CLARKE, BARAK OBAMA, DAVID CAMERON, NIKOLAS SARKOZY, ANGELA MERKEL and every single NATO commander in Afghanistan, Kosovo, and all who took part in the attack on LIBYA and those who are doing their utmost best to destroy yet another country SYRIA.
To all you who are quick to condemn Mladic, those above names have committed more attrocities than any so called Serbian war criminal but I hear no outcry for those many hundreds of thousands of innocents who have died at their hands and still die each day.
Where is the justice for those people and where is your condemnation against those who have murdered them?? SHAME ON YOU HYPOCRITES.
pre 11 godina
well Dragan, the difference is that Germany refelected on it's own violent past, faced it will all consequences, went soul searching on what was done in it's name. I do not see that in big parts of the serbian society, and especially not in the ruling political class in Serbia. It is only fingerpointing, blaming others, and hate which people like you spread. Not even a hint of soul searching when it comes to facing your countries violent past. No sign or words of reconsiation. The world knows and didn't forget what happened in the name of serbian magalomania, and this trial will will be all over the press again, and remind everybody what happend. It is time that Serbia changes to become a better, peaceloving country.
pre 11 godina
Who are these Western European countries to judge anyone? They have comitted so many crimes, starting from slavery and never paid for them. They still committ crimes today, Iraq, Afganistan, etc...USA of course, included in this bunch. One day the True court of God will judge these devils.
pre 11 godina
If murdering in cold blood 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim prisoners of war by Mladic's troops is not genocide, then what would you call it? How many have to be killed in order for you to call it genocide?
(The Count of Kosova, 16 May 2012 19:34)
You, unfortunately, like a lot of people, seem to rely on newspaper reports because you can't be bothered to read for yourself the available evidence there is and actually think for yourself what it means and what the consequence are. You've made your own opinion and you only accept the facts that fit them. Everything else you consider irrelevant and you ignore it. It is exactly Dr. Goebble's practice of repeating something so often that people no longer question it and take it on face value as fact.
Why are you so desperate to call it genocide? Do you think it is a badge of honor that one willingly wears and gets you all sorts of freebies in perpituitam or as a status symbol with which to incessantly beat someone else with? "I am a victim of genocide therefore debate is closed and I have the last word. Questioning this means you have no moral values, your opinions are worthless regardless of your argument".
That's pathetic and has nothing to do with the world we live in today.
I don't call it genocide because I have bothered to extensively read up & which in my previous you ignore. Why do you insist that what is in fact a series of limited massacres and a war crime is in your opinion genocide? You're argument seems to be that "It is because someone else said so", i.e. some judges at the ICTY. End of.
Other commenters have dismissed Peggy's legitimate question about women & children and numbers as 'splitting hairs'. That's quite whacked to tell someone whether the murder of women and children and how many is irrelevant. It's not even an answer. Who exactly is being dark?
It is about law and the interpretation and abuse of definitions in law to achieve a goal, in the case of the former yugoslavia it is bound up in politics. Anyone who denies this needs their heads examined. A simple example is te ICTY deliberately filed away its investigation against Tomislav Mercep because they didn't want it to come in to public view against the Sljivcanin (sp?) and co's trial for the Ovcara massacre. It would contradict their re-writing of history that Mercep and his buddies were attacking and killing serbs there long before the serbs revolted against this behavior and what they were doing to the serbs in Vukovar which was the most mixed city in the former yug.
If lawyers can debate and discuss whether these points are relevant or not, then non-lawyers also have the right to do so. It is called freedom of speech. Some people don't like that so they are deliberately trying to equate what happened at Srebrenica with what happened to the jews when anyone who is educated and has bothered to inform themselves properly knows that the basic facts show that they have nothing to do with each other unless they think that Serbs=Nazis. That would be stupid considering the historical background of the people they were fighting. If that is the case, then black is white and white is black & the sun revolves around the earth.
Why don't some governments accept what happened to the Serbs in WWII as genocide or what happened to the armenians etc. etc.? Because the issue is massively political yet the same people who call Srebrenica genocide deny that politics has anything to do with it.
I have friends who are jewish, armenian, kurd etc. and none of them simply say that there can be no debate and try to shut it down. They are quite capable of explaining why they have their view without attacking someone else first as a 'denier'. Unfortunately that is not true here.
pre 11 godina
Hold your high horse, Albanians and Bosniaks! Justice from Hague? really convincing? You certainly haven't consulted with your Muslin brothers and sisters in Iraq and Afghanistan, have you? They will tell you Hague detained a wrong guy.
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