Tadić: Protests may jeopardize legitimacy of elections
Democratic Party (DS) presidential candidate Boris Tadić has stated that the basic idea of the announced protests is to jeopardize legitimacy of the elections.
Dragan I didn't say there was no fraud. What I am saying is that I don't believe that there was widespread fraud and certainly not on the scale SNS is claiming.
Besides aren't you rather defeating your own extreme viewpoint? You have just used an example of the government reacting to irregularities by ordering a recount. Isn't that what you claim the government will not do?
Sreten I agree with many of your points. And it is a good point you make about Tadic's candidacy for President a third time being unconstitutional. I'm not a stickler for constitutional matters, I find that arguing over a constitution is rather like arguing over the bible - pointless, as it is open to interpretation. However, there is no room for doubt here.
I don't think that CESID can 'go after' Tadic for this though, however, I think that they are complicit in some way for not mentioning this issue in interviews, although perhaps its journalists that are complicit or too uneducated to ask the question.
As far as protests are concerned though, as I see it this is a party political protest led by SNS with the clear design of using the votes stealing issue to win the second round of the Presidential vote. In fact this whole situation exposes the limitations of the electoral silence put in place before elections. Are we currently under electoral silence before presidential elections? (I am, but thats because I've had enough of these politicians) If not why election silence for a general election and not for a presidential election? They even recently told off cable providers and Croatian HRT for violating electoral silence - utterly absurd.
The main difference in the opinion poll voting figures before the elections comes with the increase in support of SPS. Its possible that some of this was achieved through fraud, but I have a feeling that many people in opinion polls didn't want to say they were voting SPS, or that they came to the ballot box undecided and then during their 'confessional' decided to forgive SPS for its past sins and vote for them.
All those parties you mentioned that have come out claiming irregularities only made their claims once SNS had done so. Yes one has to look at claims seriously, but there is absolutely NO reason to believe that any of those parties (particularly URS, which obviously wanted to deflect attention from their alleged fraud at Zajecar) are any less unscrupulous than SNS and DS. They want to try it on, they want an excuse after a poor election result has left them vulnerable within their own party, they want to extract favours from the probable DS led government in return for them to shut up.
On the other hand what has any party got to lose by crying fraud? Nothing, realpolitik suggests it is a no lose tactic.
Having said all this as far as I'm concerned all cases of suspected fraud should be thoroughly investigated. Not only that but any party found to have invented allegations should also be sanctioned. There is no morality in politics.
I'll have to make a comment to express the views of those who, like myself, very much DISLIKE both presidential candidates.
Soon enough, we will have a president, no matter which one, that I can only be ashamed of.
"Protests may jeopardize legitimacy of elections"
Not really.
Protests are legitimate part of democratic process in a free country. I can't think of any example when protests itself jeopardize legitimacy of elections. In Washington you have protests on daily basis, plus widespread "Occupy Wall Street" movement, but not for a minute legitimacy of Obama's ELECTORAL victory was jeopardized.
So, I'm not sure what Tadic means here...
He seems to be using fear-tactics in order to scare population away from Nikolic. Investors will "skip" Serbia, etc. etc.
And protests are apparently "irresponsible and uncivilized"...
"Tadić said that such behavior was irresponsible and uncivilized because “you cannot just go and declare an election fraud if you are not satisfied with the election results”.
It's true that you shouldn't simply throw accusations against your political opponents around. This is irresponsible and uncivilized.
Then Tadic goes to accuse HIS political opponents that they are aiming to humiliate Serbia...
"Tadić added that the protests were also aimed at humiliating Serbia in the eyes of the international community. "
Just to confirm my opinion that we will soon have irresponsible and uncivilized president.
Now, Nikolic should start another 2 hour hunger strike, to make circus complete...
However, the real question is if protests will jeopardize legitimacy of election. The answer to that question would have to be NO.
What really does jeopardize legitimacy of any election is election fraud.
Is this what took place in Serbia on parliamentary elections?
It's hard to say, but should be examined closely.
The fact is that election results are very, very different then any survey was indicating prior to the elections.
It's also a fact that not only SNS is making claims of the election fraud, but many other parties too. Albanian Coalition from Preševo Valley, Movement of Workers and Peasants, Dveri, SNS and Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians all claimed election fraud.
Some of those, like Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians - István Pásztor, is not even Tadic's opponent in any way, as their representatives always supported Tadic in the National Assembly.
Even Dinkic of United Regions of Serbia, have raised doubts (if he did not openly claim election fraud). Two days ago Dinkic called May 6th elections "most suspicious" election process since October 5th 2000 (and fall of Milosevic).
( "Izbori 6. maja bili jedan od najsumnjivijih izbornih procesa posle 5. oktobra 2000. godine, izjavio lider Ujedinjenih regiona Srbije Mlađan Dinkić. ")
With so many parties claiming election fraud, one should not dismiss those accusations lightly. It should be thoroughly investigated.
Sure, there are elections monitors that bganon mentioned.
"...despite the fact that all Serbian political parties, international observers and organisations, Serbian state observers from RIK and the organisation CESID were on hand to monitor the election. "
That should be enough.
But, when you look at it, there were representatives of all Serbian political parties and Serbian state observers from RIK present during October 2000 elections, too. That didn't stop the election fraud.
What about international observers and organisations and the organisation CESID?
CESID itself was among "international observers" of recently held parliamentary and presidential elections in Russia.
Since much of the objections and accusations were the same (dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote, accusations included ballot stuffing and vote fraud) it would be interesting to compare the two.
Basically, most international observers recorded some degree of irregularities.
In Saint Petersburg, independent activist group Right to Elect attempted to register all differences between observers' protocols and the data of the Central Election Commission. They found that comparable shares of differences in votes were in favour not only of the United Russia, but of CPRF and LDPR parties as well (2.68%, 1.49% and 2.67% respectively).
etc. etc.
Notice that all numbers were under 3%.
Some were alleging more most of all GOLOS claiming that Putin's vote in presidential elections was inflated by as much as 10%.
Not that it matters much as Putin won with more then 63% so even if GOLOS was right he would still be president.
One of the most common objections ( to which CESID was part of) was that Puting is seeking THIRD term in the office.
It doesn't stand in contradiction to Russian constitution that states that one cannot be a president more then 2 CONSECUTIVE terms. Putin was President twice already, then he become Premier, and now was running for the third presidency, but not in consecutive term.
While this was completely constitutional in Russia, most international observers made a big noise over it. One CESID official even gave statement that it doesn't matter if it's constitutional or not. "Someone being president for a third time is simply immoral."
CESID was then kicked out of Russia along with many other international observers and organizations for "disrespect and violation of Russian constitution".
How are things in Serbia, legally?
Our constitution does not allow more then 2 presidential terms. Period.
Even Slobodan Milosevic had to respect this.
After being elected in 1990 and reelected in 1992 he could not have been president of Serbia any more so he run (and won) in the elections for President of Yugoslavia (not Serbia) in 1997.
However, Boris Tadic was elected president of Serbia in 2004 and reelected in 2008. Now, he is running for third term in the office of the President. This violates Serbian constitution. But, even if we say that it doesn't matter if it's constitutional or not...the real question is - why nobody from CESID (or any other international organisation) is saying "Someone being president for a third time is simply immoral."
Can we trust them?
In Russia, even if all the accusation were true and votes were inflated by as much as 10%, it wouldn't change political picture.
Here, however, even 1% could. There are parties that barely made the threshold 5%, and those that barely didn't make it.
With that in mind this should be all taken very seriously.
Dragan I haven't seen any evidence that dead people voted for Tadic. If you have any evidence of these zombies then produce it. But it is no wonder you don't know what to say. Other than youtube you are going purely on guesswork, the fact is you don't know whether there was any election fraud or not, thats not a problem, the problem is that you pretend to know something. By the way that Zajecar vid was produced by a well known manager (yeah he's the fat guy) of folk stars and an employee of Pink television.
I have an open mind, but as I know the way politics works here I am quite cynical about these claims.
By the way, youtube also has a number of very entertaining ufo videos
That is one thing that Albanians in Kosovo would fully support the crowds... That will ensure that Serbia does not get in the EU before Kosovo.
(icj1, 13 May 2012 18:43)
I don't want the EU, just good relations especially regarding trade & commerce. All Balkan countries including Eastern Europe bring nothing to the table for the Northerners. When we join the bloc are you aware that our budgets will lose all the revenue we get from tariffs on imports?
Last time I checked the EU is the largest trading partner for all the countries I mentioned plus TAXES on IMPORTS makes up for 80-95% of their budget.
This is a desperate attempt to discredit Tadic. They didnt deliver the evidence to the election commision and the aquisation that the SPS got favoured to compensate for the DS loss is not logic, while they also tell the marked ballots where SNS and SPS voting ballots. So you are telling me the SPS is part of a fraud where they dump some of their own ballots??
This doesnt make sense. When the SPS announced they prefered a coalition with the DS again instead of with SNS, i knew it would be a matter of days before Nikolic would play this card. This time no hunger strikes but aquisations that destabilize Serbia and schare off foreign investors. This man doesnt give about Serbia, but about power and his personal carreer!
Dragan there is no clear evidence of electoral fraud, a youtube vid in Zajecar is not clear evidence of local fraud, never mind national fraud. Nor is the theatrical emptying of a bag of alleged ballot papers in front of parliament.
============================
So what would be and how do we obtain it unless someone makes a start and I think they made a very good start.
Now, why isn't anyone interested in looking into this further?
All those other issues you mentioned have been going on for years in Serbia, dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote etc etc - its nothing new.
(bganon, 13 May 2012 16:57)
Ok, so you saw the videos, and on top of that you are ok with dead people voting for Boris the quisling? Was it ok for dead people to vote for your beloved Slobo? I really don't know what more to say to you Bganon. It's called denial, go get some help, seriously.
'That will ensure that Serbia does not get in the EU before Kosovo.
(icj1, 13 May 2012 18:43)'
Yes, because the EU wants to open their gates and be flooded with organ snatchers, human traffickers, and heroin dealers. Try again bird brain.
Your presence along would double this mass-protest. Do your part!!!
(Danilo, 13 May 2012 15:52)
It sounds like you miss me Danilo. Perhaps you just need a coach to teach you how to talk to Serbian women without getting shot down? I'd offer to be your wingman, but then my own reputation would be severely compromised if I was seen with the likes of you. So I'll leave it to your mates Captain Frisco and Nenad to teach you.
Cheers!!
Dragan there is no clear evidence of electoral fraud, a youtube vid in Zajecar is not clear evidence of local fraud, never mind national fraud. Nor is the theatrical emptying of a bag of alleged ballot papers in front of parliament.
All those other issues you mentioned have been going on for years in Serbia, dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote etc etc - its nothing new.
There is not enough of a crowd to fill a train, much less storm the bastille, still I like the idea of you lecturing about democracy and supporting violence to install a government you would support.
Its odd isn't it that the minute that SPS agreed to make a coalition government with DS that SNS spoke of a stolen election. And yet before then, there was not a whisper of it, despite the fact that all Serbian political parties, international observers and organisations, Serbian state observers from RIK and the organisation CESID were on hand to monitor the election.
'Tadić said that such behavior was irresponsible and uncivilized because “you cannot just go and declare an election fraud if you are not satisfied with the election results”.'
Only an idiot can say this when there is clear video evidence of blatant fraud. Also, evidence of dead people voting, more people voting than were registered, some people not being able to vote because they did not show up on lists.....
Boris, you pathetic quisling, I hope the crowds 'storm the Bastille' and throw your corrupt NATO loving ass out of office.
Theres no "legitimacy" or "democracy" for that matter, to talk about. The American imperial regime sure want THEIR imposed man in office and so he keeps bouncing back no matter what and how fed up Serbs are with years of these grovelling quislings nobody asked for in the first place.
At least the scandalous procedure of these dirty fraudsters own copy of western "democratic election", is no out for everyone to see despite "damage control" in the high gear working media machine. The regime will fall apart itself with a little help from the rest of us, it has just getting started...
Theres no "legitimacy" or "democracy" for that matter, to talk about. The American imperial regime sure want THEIR imposed man in office and so he keeps bouncing back no matter what and how fed up Serbs are with years of these grovelling quislings nobody asked for in the first place.
At least the scandalous procedure of these dirty fraudsters own copy of western "democratic election", is no out for everyone to see despite "damage control" in the high gear working media machine. The regime will fall apart itself with a little help from the rest of us, it has just getting started...
Theres no "legitimacy" or "democracy" for that matter, to talk about. The American imperial regime sure want THEIR imposed man in office and so he keeps bouncing back no matter what and how fed up Serbs are with years of these grovelling quislings nobody asked for in the first place.
At least the scandalous procedure of these dirty fraudsters own copy of western "democratic election", is no out for everyone to see despite "damage control" in the high gear working media machine. The regime will fall apart itself with a little help from the rest of us, it has just getting started...
'Tadić said that such behavior was irresponsible and uncivilized because “you cannot just go and declare an election fraud if you are not satisfied with the election results”.'
Only an idiot can say this when there is clear video evidence of blatant fraud. Also, evidence of dead people voting, more people voting than were registered, some people not being able to vote because they did not show up on lists.....
Boris, you pathetic quisling, I hope the crowds 'storm the Bastille' and throw your corrupt NATO loving ass out of office.
Dragan there is no clear evidence of electoral fraud, a youtube vid in Zajecar is not clear evidence of local fraud, never mind national fraud. Nor is the theatrical emptying of a bag of alleged ballot papers in front of parliament.
All those other issues you mentioned have been going on for years in Serbia, dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote etc etc - its nothing new.
There is not enough of a crowd to fill a train, much less storm the bastille, still I like the idea of you lecturing about democracy and supporting violence to install a government you would support.
Its odd isn't it that the minute that SPS agreed to make a coalition government with DS that SNS spoke of a stolen election. And yet before then, there was not a whisper of it, despite the fact that all Serbian political parties, international observers and organisations, Serbian state observers from RIK and the organisation CESID were on hand to monitor the election.
Theres no "legitimacy" or "democracy" for that matter, to talk about. The American imperial regime sure want THEIR imposed man in office and so he keeps bouncing back no matter what and how fed up Serbs are with years of these grovelling quislings nobody asked for in the first place.
At least the scandalous procedure of these dirty fraudsters own copy of western "democratic election", is no out for everyone to see despite "damage control" in the high gear working media machine. The regime will fall apart itself with a little help from the rest of us, it has just getting started...
All those other issues you mentioned have been going on for years in Serbia, dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote etc etc - its nothing new.
(bganon, 13 May 2012 16:57)
Ok, so you saw the videos, and on top of that you are ok with dead people voting for Boris the quisling? Was it ok for dead people to vote for your beloved Slobo? I really don't know what more to say to you Bganon. It's called denial, go get some help, seriously.
'That will ensure that Serbia does not get in the EU before Kosovo.
(icj1, 13 May 2012 18:43)'
Yes, because the EU wants to open their gates and be flooded with organ snatchers, human traffickers, and heroin dealers. Try again bird brain.
Your presence along would double this mass-protest. Do your part!!!
(Danilo, 13 May 2012 15:52)
It sounds like you miss me Danilo. Perhaps you just need a coach to teach you how to talk to Serbian women without getting shot down? I'd offer to be your wingman, but then my own reputation would be severely compromised if I was seen with the likes of you. So I'll leave it to your mates Captain Frisco and Nenad to teach you.
Cheers!!
I'll have to make a comment to express the views of those who, like myself, very much DISLIKE both presidential candidates.
Soon enough, we will have a president, no matter which one, that I can only be ashamed of.
"Protests may jeopardize legitimacy of elections"
Not really.
Protests are legitimate part of democratic process in a free country. I can't think of any example when protests itself jeopardize legitimacy of elections. In Washington you have protests on daily basis, plus widespread "Occupy Wall Street" movement, but not for a minute legitimacy of Obama's ELECTORAL victory was jeopardized.
So, I'm not sure what Tadic means here...
He seems to be using fear-tactics in order to scare population away from Nikolic. Investors will "skip" Serbia, etc. etc.
And protests are apparently "irresponsible and uncivilized"...
"Tadić said that such behavior was irresponsible and uncivilized because “you cannot just go and declare an election fraud if you are not satisfied with the election results”.
It's true that you shouldn't simply throw accusations against your political opponents around. This is irresponsible and uncivilized.
Then Tadic goes to accuse HIS political opponents that they are aiming to humiliate Serbia...
"Tadić added that the protests were also aimed at humiliating Serbia in the eyes of the international community. "
Just to confirm my opinion that we will soon have irresponsible and uncivilized president.
Now, Nikolic should start another 2 hour hunger strike, to make circus complete...
However, the real question is if protests will jeopardize legitimacy of election. The answer to that question would have to be NO.
What really does jeopardize legitimacy of any election is election fraud.
Is this what took place in Serbia on parliamentary elections?
It's hard to say, but should be examined closely.
The fact is that election results are very, very different then any survey was indicating prior to the elections.
It's also a fact that not only SNS is making claims of the election fraud, but many other parties too. Albanian Coalition from Preševo Valley, Movement of Workers and Peasants, Dveri, SNS and Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians all claimed election fraud.
Some of those, like Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians - István Pásztor, is not even Tadic's opponent in any way, as their representatives always supported Tadic in the National Assembly.
Even Dinkic of United Regions of Serbia, have raised doubts (if he did not openly claim election fraud). Two days ago Dinkic called May 6th elections "most suspicious" election process since October 5th 2000 (and fall of Milosevic).
( "Izbori 6. maja bili jedan od najsumnjivijih izbornih procesa posle 5. oktobra 2000. godine, izjavio lider Ujedinjenih regiona Srbije Mlađan Dinkić. ")
With so many parties claiming election fraud, one should not dismiss those accusations lightly. It should be thoroughly investigated.
Sure, there are elections monitors that bganon mentioned.
"...despite the fact that all Serbian political parties, international observers and organisations, Serbian state observers from RIK and the organisation CESID were on hand to monitor the election. "
That should be enough.
But, when you look at it, there were representatives of all Serbian political parties and Serbian state observers from RIK present during October 2000 elections, too. That didn't stop the election fraud.
What about international observers and organisations and the organisation CESID?
CESID itself was among "international observers" of recently held parliamentary and presidential elections in Russia.
Since much of the objections and accusations were the same (dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote, accusations included ballot stuffing and vote fraud) it would be interesting to compare the two.
Basically, most international observers recorded some degree of irregularities.
In Saint Petersburg, independent activist group Right to Elect attempted to register all differences between observers' protocols and the data of the Central Election Commission. They found that comparable shares of differences in votes were in favour not only of the United Russia, but of CPRF and LDPR parties as well (2.68%, 1.49% and 2.67% respectively).
etc. etc.
Notice that all numbers were under 3%.
Some were alleging more most of all GOLOS claiming that Putin's vote in presidential elections was inflated by as much as 10%.
Not that it matters much as Putin won with more then 63% so even if GOLOS was right he would still be president.
One of the most common objections ( to which CESID was part of) was that Puting is seeking THIRD term in the office.
It doesn't stand in contradiction to Russian constitution that states that one cannot be a president more then 2 CONSECUTIVE terms. Putin was President twice already, then he become Premier, and now was running for the third presidency, but not in consecutive term.
While this was completely constitutional in Russia, most international observers made a big noise over it. One CESID official even gave statement that it doesn't matter if it's constitutional or not. "Someone being president for a third time is simply immoral."
CESID was then kicked out of Russia along with many other international observers and organizations for "disrespect and violation of Russian constitution".
How are things in Serbia, legally?
Our constitution does not allow more then 2 presidential terms. Period.
Even Slobodan Milosevic had to respect this.
After being elected in 1990 and reelected in 1992 he could not have been president of Serbia any more so he run (and won) in the elections for President of Yugoslavia (not Serbia) in 1997.
However, Boris Tadic was elected president of Serbia in 2004 and reelected in 2008. Now, he is running for third term in the office of the President. This violates Serbian constitution. But, even if we say that it doesn't matter if it's constitutional or not...the real question is - why nobody from CESID (or any other international organisation) is saying "Someone being president for a third time is simply immoral."
Can we trust them?
In Russia, even if all the accusation were true and votes were inflated by as much as 10%, it wouldn't change political picture.
Here, however, even 1% could. There are parties that barely made the threshold 5%, and those that barely didn't make it.
With that in mind this should be all taken very seriously.
Dragan there is no clear evidence of electoral fraud, a youtube vid in Zajecar is not clear evidence of local fraud, never mind national fraud. Nor is the theatrical emptying of a bag of alleged ballot papers in front of parliament.
============================
So what would be and how do we obtain it unless someone makes a start and I think they made a very good start.
Now, why isn't anyone interested in looking into this further?
Sreten I agree with many of your points. And it is a good point you make about Tadic's candidacy for President a third time being unconstitutional. I'm not a stickler for constitutional matters, I find that arguing over a constitution is rather like arguing over the bible - pointless, as it is open to interpretation. However, there is no room for doubt here.
I don't think that CESID can 'go after' Tadic for this though, however, I think that they are complicit in some way for not mentioning this issue in interviews, although perhaps its journalists that are complicit or too uneducated to ask the question.
As far as protests are concerned though, as I see it this is a party political protest led by SNS with the clear design of using the votes stealing issue to win the second round of the Presidential vote. In fact this whole situation exposes the limitations of the electoral silence put in place before elections. Are we currently under electoral silence before presidential elections? (I am, but thats because I've had enough of these politicians) If not why election silence for a general election and not for a presidential election? They even recently told off cable providers and Croatian HRT for violating electoral silence - utterly absurd.
The main difference in the opinion poll voting figures before the elections comes with the increase in support of SPS. Its possible that some of this was achieved through fraud, but I have a feeling that many people in opinion polls didn't want to say they were voting SPS, or that they came to the ballot box undecided and then during their 'confessional' decided to forgive SPS for its past sins and vote for them.
All those parties you mentioned that have come out claiming irregularities only made their claims once SNS had done so. Yes one has to look at claims seriously, but there is absolutely NO reason to believe that any of those parties (particularly URS, which obviously wanted to deflect attention from their alleged fraud at Zajecar) are any less unscrupulous than SNS and DS. They want to try it on, they want an excuse after a poor election result has left them vulnerable within their own party, they want to extract favours from the probable DS led government in return for them to shut up.
On the other hand what has any party got to lose by crying fraud? Nothing, realpolitik suggests it is a no lose tactic.
Having said all this as far as I'm concerned all cases of suspected fraud should be thoroughly investigated. Not only that but any party found to have invented allegations should also be sanctioned. There is no morality in politics.
Dragan I didn't say there was no fraud. What I am saying is that I don't believe that there was widespread fraud and certainly not on the scale SNS is claiming.
Besides aren't you rather defeating your own extreme viewpoint? You have just used an example of the government reacting to irregularities by ordering a recount. Isn't that what you claim the government will not do?
This is a desperate attempt to discredit Tadic. They didnt deliver the evidence to the election commision and the aquisation that the SPS got favoured to compensate for the DS loss is not logic, while they also tell the marked ballots where SNS and SPS voting ballots. So you are telling me the SPS is part of a fraud where they dump some of their own ballots??
This doesnt make sense. When the SPS announced they prefered a coalition with the DS again instead of with SNS, i knew it would be a matter of days before Nikolic would play this card. This time no hunger strikes but aquisations that destabilize Serbia and schare off foreign investors. This man doesnt give about Serbia, but about power and his personal carreer!
Dragan I haven't seen any evidence that dead people voted for Tadic. If you have any evidence of these zombies then produce it. But it is no wonder you don't know what to say. Other than youtube you are going purely on guesswork, the fact is you don't know whether there was any election fraud or not, thats not a problem, the problem is that you pretend to know something. By the way that Zajecar vid was produced by a well known manager (yeah he's the fat guy) of folk stars and an employee of Pink television.
I have an open mind, but as I know the way politics works here I am quite cynical about these claims.
By the way, youtube also has a number of very entertaining ufo videos
That is one thing that Albanians in Kosovo would fully support the crowds... That will ensure that Serbia does not get in the EU before Kosovo.
(icj1, 13 May 2012 18:43)
I don't want the EU, just good relations especially regarding trade & commerce. All Balkan countries including Eastern Europe bring nothing to the table for the Northerners. When we join the bloc are you aware that our budgets will lose all the revenue we get from tariffs on imports?
Last time I checked the EU is the largest trading partner for all the countries I mentioned plus TAXES on IMPORTS makes up for 80-95% of their budget.
Theres no "legitimacy" or "democracy" for that matter, to talk about. The American imperial regime sure want THEIR imposed man in office and so he keeps bouncing back no matter what and how fed up Serbs are with years of these grovelling quislings nobody asked for in the first place.
At least the scandalous procedure of these dirty fraudsters own copy of western "democratic election", is no out for everyone to see despite "damage control" in the high gear working media machine. The regime will fall apart itself with a little help from the rest of us, it has just getting started...
Your presence along would double this mass-protest. Do your part!!!
(Danilo, 13 May 2012 15:52)
It sounds like you miss me Danilo. Perhaps you just need a coach to teach you how to talk to Serbian women without getting shot down? I'd offer to be your wingman, but then my own reputation would be severely compromised if I was seen with the likes of you. So I'll leave it to your mates Captain Frisco and Nenad to teach you.
Cheers!!
Theres no "legitimacy" or "democracy" for that matter, to talk about. The American imperial regime sure want THEIR imposed man in office and so he keeps bouncing back no matter what and how fed up Serbs are with years of these grovelling quislings nobody asked for in the first place.
At least the scandalous procedure of these dirty fraudsters own copy of western "democratic election", is no out for everyone to see despite "damage control" in the high gear working media machine. The regime will fall apart itself with a little help from the rest of us, it has just getting started...
'Tadić said that such behavior was irresponsible and uncivilized because “you cannot just go and declare an election fraud if you are not satisfied with the election results”.'
Only an idiot can say this when there is clear video evidence of blatant fraud. Also, evidence of dead people voting, more people voting than were registered, some people not being able to vote because they did not show up on lists.....
Boris, you pathetic quisling, I hope the crowds 'storm the Bastille' and throw your corrupt NATO loving ass out of office.
Dragan there is no clear evidence of electoral fraud, a youtube vid in Zajecar is not clear evidence of local fraud, never mind national fraud. Nor is the theatrical emptying of a bag of alleged ballot papers in front of parliament.
All those other issues you mentioned have been going on for years in Serbia, dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote etc etc - its nothing new.
There is not enough of a crowd to fill a train, much less storm the bastille, still I like the idea of you lecturing about democracy and supporting violence to install a government you would support.
Its odd isn't it that the minute that SPS agreed to make a coalition government with DS that SNS spoke of a stolen election. And yet before then, there was not a whisper of it, despite the fact that all Serbian political parties, international observers and organisations, Serbian state observers from RIK and the organisation CESID were on hand to monitor the election.
All those other issues you mentioned have been going on for years in Serbia, dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote etc etc - its nothing new.
(bganon, 13 May 2012 16:57)
Ok, so you saw the videos, and on top of that you are ok with dead people voting for Boris the quisling? Was it ok for dead people to vote for your beloved Slobo? I really don't know what more to say to you Bganon. It's called denial, go get some help, seriously.
'That will ensure that Serbia does not get in the EU before Kosovo.
(icj1, 13 May 2012 18:43)'
Yes, because the EU wants to open their gates and be flooded with organ snatchers, human traffickers, and heroin dealers. Try again bird brain.
Sreten I agree with many of your points. And it is a good point you make about Tadic's candidacy for President a third time being unconstitutional. I'm not a stickler for constitutional matters, I find that arguing over a constitution is rather like arguing over the bible - pointless, as it is open to interpretation. However, there is no room for doubt here.
I don't think that CESID can 'go after' Tadic for this though, however, I think that they are complicit in some way for not mentioning this issue in interviews, although perhaps its journalists that are complicit or too uneducated to ask the question.
As far as protests are concerned though, as I see it this is a party political protest led by SNS with the clear design of using the votes stealing issue to win the second round of the Presidential vote. In fact this whole situation exposes the limitations of the electoral silence put in place before elections. Are we currently under electoral silence before presidential elections? (I am, but thats because I've had enough of these politicians) If not why election silence for a general election and not for a presidential election? They even recently told off cable providers and Croatian HRT for violating electoral silence - utterly absurd.
The main difference in the opinion poll voting figures before the elections comes with the increase in support of SPS. Its possible that some of this was achieved through fraud, but I have a feeling that many people in opinion polls didn't want to say they were voting SPS, or that they came to the ballot box undecided and then during their 'confessional' decided to forgive SPS for its past sins and vote for them.
All those parties you mentioned that have come out claiming irregularities only made their claims once SNS had done so. Yes one has to look at claims seriously, but there is absolutely NO reason to believe that any of those parties (particularly URS, which obviously wanted to deflect attention from their alleged fraud at Zajecar) are any less unscrupulous than SNS and DS. They want to try it on, they want an excuse after a poor election result has left them vulnerable within their own party, they want to extract favours from the probable DS led government in return for them to shut up.
On the other hand what has any party got to lose by crying fraud? Nothing, realpolitik suggests it is a no lose tactic.
Having said all this as far as I'm concerned all cases of suspected fraud should be thoroughly investigated. Not only that but any party found to have invented allegations should also be sanctioned. There is no morality in politics.
Dragan I didn't say there was no fraud. What I am saying is that I don't believe that there was widespread fraud and certainly not on the scale SNS is claiming.
Besides aren't you rather defeating your own extreme viewpoint? You have just used an example of the government reacting to irregularities by ordering a recount. Isn't that what you claim the government will not do?
Dragan I haven't seen any evidence that dead people voted for Tadic. If you have any evidence of these zombies then produce it. But it is no wonder you don't know what to say. Other than youtube you are going purely on guesswork, the fact is you don't know whether there was any election fraud or not, thats not a problem, the problem is that you pretend to know something. By the way that Zajecar vid was produced by a well known manager (yeah he's the fat guy) of folk stars and an employee of Pink television.
I have an open mind, but as I know the way politics works here I am quite cynical about these claims.
By the way, youtube also has a number of very entertaining ufo videos
That is one thing that Albanians in Kosovo would fully support the crowds... That will ensure that Serbia does not get in the EU before Kosovo.
(icj1, 13 May 2012 18:43)
I don't want the EU, just good relations especially regarding trade & commerce. All Balkan countries including Eastern Europe bring nothing to the table for the Northerners. When we join the bloc are you aware that our budgets will lose all the revenue we get from tariffs on imports?
Last time I checked the EU is the largest trading partner for all the countries I mentioned plus TAXES on IMPORTS makes up for 80-95% of their budget.
This is a desperate attempt to discredit Tadic. They didnt deliver the evidence to the election commision and the aquisation that the SPS got favoured to compensate for the DS loss is not logic, while they also tell the marked ballots where SNS and SPS voting ballots. So you are telling me the SPS is part of a fraud where they dump some of their own ballots??
This doesnt make sense. When the SPS announced they prefered a coalition with the DS again instead of with SNS, i knew it would be a matter of days before Nikolic would play this card. This time no hunger strikes but aquisations that destabilize Serbia and schare off foreign investors. This man doesnt give about Serbia, but about power and his personal carreer!
Dragan there is no clear evidence of electoral fraud, a youtube vid in Zajecar is not clear evidence of local fraud, never mind national fraud. Nor is the theatrical emptying of a bag of alleged ballot papers in front of parliament.
============================
So what would be and how do we obtain it unless someone makes a start and I think they made a very good start.
Now, why isn't anyone interested in looking into this further?
I'll have to make a comment to express the views of those who, like myself, very much DISLIKE both presidential candidates.
Soon enough, we will have a president, no matter which one, that I can only be ashamed of.
"Protests may jeopardize legitimacy of elections"
Not really.
Protests are legitimate part of democratic process in a free country. I can't think of any example when protests itself jeopardize legitimacy of elections. In Washington you have protests on daily basis, plus widespread "Occupy Wall Street" movement, but not for a minute legitimacy of Obama's ELECTORAL victory was jeopardized.
So, I'm not sure what Tadic means here...
He seems to be using fear-tactics in order to scare population away from Nikolic. Investors will "skip" Serbia, etc. etc.
And protests are apparently "irresponsible and uncivilized"...
"Tadić said that such behavior was irresponsible and uncivilized because “you cannot just go and declare an election fraud if you are not satisfied with the election results”.
It's true that you shouldn't simply throw accusations against your political opponents around. This is irresponsible and uncivilized.
Then Tadic goes to accuse HIS political opponents that they are aiming to humiliate Serbia...
"Tadić added that the protests were also aimed at humiliating Serbia in the eyes of the international community. "
Just to confirm my opinion that we will soon have irresponsible and uncivilized president.
Now, Nikolic should start another 2 hour hunger strike, to make circus complete...
However, the real question is if protests will jeopardize legitimacy of election. The answer to that question would have to be NO.
What really does jeopardize legitimacy of any election is election fraud.
Is this what took place in Serbia on parliamentary elections?
It's hard to say, but should be examined closely.
The fact is that election results are very, very different then any survey was indicating prior to the elections.
It's also a fact that not only SNS is making claims of the election fraud, but many other parties too. Albanian Coalition from Preševo Valley, Movement of Workers and Peasants, Dveri, SNS and Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians all claimed election fraud.
Some of those, like Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians - István Pásztor, is not even Tadic's opponent in any way, as their representatives always supported Tadic in the National Assembly.
Even Dinkic of United Regions of Serbia, have raised doubts (if he did not openly claim election fraud). Two days ago Dinkic called May 6th elections "most suspicious" election process since October 5th 2000 (and fall of Milosevic).
( "Izbori 6. maja bili jedan od najsumnjivijih izbornih procesa posle 5. oktobra 2000. godine, izjavio lider Ujedinjenih regiona Srbije Mlađan Dinkić. ")
With so many parties claiming election fraud, one should not dismiss those accusations lightly. It should be thoroughly investigated.
Sure, there are elections monitors that bganon mentioned.
"...despite the fact that all Serbian political parties, international observers and organisations, Serbian state observers from RIK and the organisation CESID were on hand to monitor the election. "
That should be enough.
But, when you look at it, there were representatives of all Serbian political parties and Serbian state observers from RIK present during October 2000 elections, too. That didn't stop the election fraud.
What about international observers and organisations and the organisation CESID?
CESID itself was among "international observers" of recently held parliamentary and presidential elections in Russia.
Since much of the objections and accusations were the same (dead people on electoral lists, people not being sent invitations to vote, accusations included ballot stuffing and vote fraud) it would be interesting to compare the two.
Basically, most international observers recorded some degree of irregularities.
In Saint Petersburg, independent activist group Right to Elect attempted to register all differences between observers' protocols and the data of the Central Election Commission. They found that comparable shares of differences in votes were in favour not only of the United Russia, but of CPRF and LDPR parties as well (2.68%, 1.49% and 2.67% respectively).
etc. etc.
Notice that all numbers were under 3%.
Some were alleging more most of all GOLOS claiming that Putin's vote in presidential elections was inflated by as much as 10%.
Not that it matters much as Putin won with more then 63% so even if GOLOS was right he would still be president.
One of the most common objections ( to which CESID was part of) was that Puting is seeking THIRD term in the office.
It doesn't stand in contradiction to Russian constitution that states that one cannot be a president more then 2 CONSECUTIVE terms. Putin was President twice already, then he become Premier, and now was running for the third presidency, but not in consecutive term.
While this was completely constitutional in Russia, most international observers made a big noise over it. One CESID official even gave statement that it doesn't matter if it's constitutional or not. "Someone being president for a third time is simply immoral."
CESID was then kicked out of Russia along with many other international observers and organizations for "disrespect and violation of Russian constitution".
How are things in Serbia, legally?
Our constitution does not allow more then 2 presidential terms. Period.
Even Slobodan Milosevic had to respect this.
After being elected in 1990 and reelected in 1992 he could not have been president of Serbia any more so he run (and won) in the elections for President of Yugoslavia (not Serbia) in 1997.
However, Boris Tadic was elected president of Serbia in 2004 and reelected in 2008. Now, he is running for third term in the office of the President. This violates Serbian constitution. But, even if we say that it doesn't matter if it's constitutional or not...the real question is - why nobody from CESID (or any other international organisation) is saying "Someone being president for a third time is simply immoral."
Can we trust them?
In Russia, even if all the accusation were true and votes were inflated by as much as 10%, it wouldn't change political picture.
Here, however, even 1% could. There are parties that barely made the threshold 5%, and those that barely didn't make it.
With that in mind this should be all taken very seriously.
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