Serbia, RS commemorate Croatia exodus

So by your logic Bam Bam I guess Croats in Mostar and Albanians in Serbia should have been wiped out for trying to create states within a state?

I remember that days, especially that part were Serbian missiles and cluster bombs hit the center of Zagreb, including main squares, passengers trains and a children hospital.

It is absolutely understandable that Operation Bljesak, Operation Oluja and Operation Mistral were necessary. They brought peace to Croatia and ended the war.

So by your logic Bam Bam I guess Croats in Mostar and Albanians in Serbia should have been wiped out for trying to create states within a state?
(Rush, 1 May 2012 12:42)
=================================

Of course not. Serbs are the only people who have not rights. Everyone else can do as they please.
People like bam bam really need a reality check.

First of all, I have to say that I feel sorry for anyone that in any way suffered in the wars in former Yugoslavia. I wish we solved our disputes in a more peaceful manner but we haven't. However, now after the damage is done I believe that it is highly important that media tries to write about these events in less ideological way downplaying some facts or completely omitting them.
In this particular case, without minimizing the suffering of the Croatian Serbs in that region, one must at least mention some of the facts that are highly important for understanding the context.
1) many Serbs in this region were instrumentalized by Serbian nationalists and propagated Serbian extremism. Of course, not everyone was like that but it should be noted.
2) this region undergone ethnic cleansing of non-Serbs in a very violent way (there are videos on line how cheerful soldiers shoot at the hospital etc.). Again, this doesn't justify what happened later but it's important to know.
3) although the region was UN protected the rest of Croatia was very often bombed from this area.
4) after the operation Flash, Milan Martić ordered shelling of Zagreb which ended in killing 7 civilians and wounding 176.

So let's keep all this in mind and not propagate nationalistic myths while discussing victims.

Peace

@ nikolle

And greater albania is ok right? You albans will never learn so just enjoy the show while it lasts.

Serbs brought their suffering on themselves. Croatia had shown no indication that minority rights wouldn't be respected. Instead, what Croat-Serbs elected to do, egged on by their clergy of course, is decide to cede from Croatia and form the so called Republic of Banja Luka. You should read the ethnic demography of that republic, where they expelled ALL Croats within its domain. The children of Krajina are to be pitied because they are innocent. The adults who so eagerly expelled Croats in the hope of creating the second empire of Dushan, ZERO sympathy for them. Instead of blaming the west all the time, blame yourselves and your priests

@(UN) realistic guy
Nedic is no one any Serb should celebrate..and he was a Nazi collaborator. So therefore..two things again grossly wrong with your statement. Number one.. no Serb enjoys nazi collaboration unless theyre part of some skinhead group today, yes, not everyone is ok.

second you are comparing Nedic's movement, more effective than the Ustase regime? You kidding me? do you believe in numbers?
You really are beginning to make me see you are lost. clueless.

not every Serb is a good Serb, God knows that. I know that. But the Cetniks were also not as bad as they are made out to be, and Tito is the devil responsible for most of this. But one thing is certain, Ustase were the worst killers in the balkans in the last 500 years. period.

Serbs brought their suffering on themselves. Croatia had shown no indication that minority rights wouldn't be respected. Instead, what Croat-Serbs elected to do, egged on by their clergy of course, is decide to cede from Croatia and form the so called Republic of Banja Luka. You should read the ethnic demography of that republic, where they expelled ALL Croats within its domain. The children of Krajina are to be pitied because they are innocent. The adults who so eagerly expelled Croats in the hope of creating the second empire of Dushan, ZERO sympathy for them. Instead of blaming the west all the time, blame yourselves and your priests
(Nikolle, 1 May 2012 14:12)
As I have been saying many times look closely at the new government in Zagreb and you just might see who runs it. I give you a guess it’s not Croats.
Now if I was you I’d try and encourage some western industry to relocate to the so called independent Kosvoa and I’m still waiting on your response where all those Albanians are employed; you know sources and I don’t mean ketchup or BBQ either.

It was a great success for german weapons, the United States Navy and the US using their 'retired' soldiers via front men from MPRI (Military Professional Resources Inc.) now owned by L3 and being sued in the US for its complicity in war crimes. Quite the victory for the land of the free.

Not surprised by the usual neo/Ustasi apologists here who still miss their holocaust denying president Tudjman (and his revisionist tome, Wastelands of Historical Truth (Bespuća povijesne zbiljnosti)- published in 1989 - a year before Izetbegovic's call to islamicize the Balkans his Islamic Declaration was republished, first published in 1970) and his rehabilitation of the Ustasi not to mention his revisionism existing since the 1960's and being involved in the 1971 Croatian Spring.

If only croatian serbs had accepted people like Tudjman. LOL! Just because the germans did?

Non-croats had their homes stolen (Kosor's downtown flat for example) and were kicked out of their jobs long before any fighting broke out in Croatia, many forced to sign oaths of loyalty to the Croatian state or be fired. Non-croats even in Zagreb were beaten up, ostracized and abused by their so-called neighbors whilst Ustasi war criminals were welcomed back to Croatia from south american countries with open arms, glorified in the state media and had streets renamed after them (like Mile Budak).

Danke your Deutschlande indeed. You didn't do any of it by yourselves.

What did u expect...the croats to throw bread at them. Any group that wants to create a state within a state should be wiped out. We don't want you and we certainly don't need you-go home to Serbia where u belong as Krajina is no more....

It seems as though the only problems which agonize Croatia are to have good relations with good neighbor Serbia. Good neighbor Serbian Communist Yugoslav Army (JNA), killed at least 15,000 Croatians and forcibly displaced, "cleansed," some 220,000 Croats from about one-third of Croatian territory. More than 15,000 (Fifteen THOUSAND!) Croats were murdered in areas occupied by rebel Serbs, and more than 4000 are still missing. Croatians should indeed be proud of their own liberation from such a hell.

If you Serbs have been slaughtered in this region is of your creation and your the initiators. There is no conflict or war in this region that you were not the initiators. You slaughtered enormous numbers in creation of a (GREATER SERBIA), but, however, as is generally known that you have lost every war and your murderers goal of a "Greater Serbia," and when you get in bunch of @#$%^ you have called to brothers Russians and the English for help. Did Serbia 'listen' to the 19% of its population that were Albanians when they wanted freedom?--no it just decided to slaughter them en masse. We exist as witnesses so you can't spread your lies no more. Serbia you are a most resist nation on this planet! We have learned two lessons from Serbia...aggression pays and the “EU new world order” is pretentious nonsense. And how you propose to defend Serbia—aggression when not one single Croatian soldier tread on Serbian soil, while Serbian soldiers knocked down one third of Croatia? Croatian solider defended his own country and did not engage in war on Serbian territory. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, Let there be no doubt, Serbia is guilt as sin of the wars as Serbs sought "Greater Serbia"

for all the atrocities committed in WWII against Serbs, zagreb had it coming, and still does. im sick of these comments of how we did this and that.. you people every pick up a book?
stop telling me about how Serbs did this and that.. many people i know lost generations in death camps during WWII. and what, 40 years later they should be happy and move on? this exodus is gross..and the attack is celebrated?

@(non) realistic guy

No, in my head WWII is not still going on. But the fact of the matter remains, if you wish to know the root of evil, the action and reaction, the cause of a region, you have to go back. As far i am concerned, WWII was not centuries ago, and no one is living in WWII. But DO NOT think that you dont offend Serbs on here, when you write things like "they attacked Zagreb, etc." The things that happened in WWII were gross and inhumane. And guys like Thompson still make concerts celebrating that regime.. and guys like you systematically choose what to portray or what not to. Makes it very clear that you are not only bias, but also uneducated.

Let me make you understand further.. after WWII Serbs were forced to live in a country with Croats. You think back then reconciliation was easy? Then when everyone wanted to secede, what do you believe the mindframe was then? Think about it. SErbs in Croatia..?? Let me fill you in.. 40 years ago there were death camps, im sure those Serbs in Croatian area didnt want to ever let that happen again. So naturally, they took to arms to defend themselves.

And on top of it Croats today still have the nerve to "gloat" about beating the Serbs in a war, when we all know that would have never happened had the Serbs in Serbia stuck up for their people. that is politics..i wont enter that.

Point is this.. croats today hate Serbs, as much as they did back then. And todays media doesn't portray croats celebrating "ethnic cleansing" on Yahoo's front page. Serbs do sometihng like that.. and its plastered everywhere.

So no ones living in the past.. its just not worth it. I dont have the time. No one does. But all Serbs should not be concerned with what their fascist neighbors think/believe. And the media is beyond unfair, and that is recognized everywhere as well. How many articles you read on croat war criminals? how many people know about Ustase and Jasenovac? I've been down this road before.

No ones wearing lenses.. you need to understand that Serbs have been much more forgiving, and they could have wiped out Croatia if there were not outside powers interfering. and yet today.. you go to croatia and get harassed/beaten for being Serbian. I read those articles every year..yet i dont see many of those cases here in Serbia.

Be objective, realistic, otherwise use a different name, because you are exactly not being that right now. and it is offensive to think someone is living in the past, thank you for telling me that i should forget about my grandfather that was tortured some 65 years ago. You act like cavemen existed back then. But sorry, i dont and cant forget the past. You just move on..but dont forget.

what a joke..

@Momcilo:

Since World War 2 is your obsession I am sure you know how effective Nedić regime was in carrying out the Holocaust. Far more "effective" than NDH. Does that mean someone should punish for that the Serbs born in the 1970s?

Where did this story come from? It's amazing how the facts change over time. Operation Flash was a dress rehearsal for Oluja. The entire world was watching, the UN, NATO, EU, Russia, everyone and everyone confirmed it was a brilliant operation, precise, with really no civilian casualties. Otherwise, the world would not have given the green light for Oluja. Either what's written in this article is just more Serb propaganda or is it someone else trying to rewrite the history? I don't understand how the facts could have changed so much in 17 years. How is this allowed?

Uh no, "King Damir" - deaths were reported at the time and an American UN worker, Stephanie Bond, who was there witnessed the murders and cleansing, and how Croatia got away with killings of civilians Serbs all throughout her time there.

Nikolle.

"Serbs brought their suffering on themselves. Croatia had shown no indication that minority rights wouldn't be respected. "

To the contrary - minority rights of Serbs were not respected. Far from it. There is plenty written on the subject and you should inform yourself. Perhaps you could start with latest Amnesty International report in regard with rights of the Serbs in Croatia even today.
It's called "Behind the wall of silence" and it's dated just year and a half ago ( December 2010).

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR64/003/2010/en/81544213-9880-4a5e-acea-d5269d0bc8ad/eur640032010en.pdf

To Realistic Guy

1) many non-Serbs in this region were instrumentalized by anti-Serbian nationalists and propagated anti-Serbian extremism. Of course, not everyone was like that but it should be noted.

2) this region undergone ethnic cleansing of Serbs in a very violent way


and I will now respond to 3) and 4) in a separate comment.

@Revise This:

Can we have any discussion about the wars in former Yugoslavia without talking about Ustashe, holocaust etc?
This is a text about particular event that took place on 1.May 1995. No one is mocking the victims here. However, the text is totally biased and very one sided. Selective remembering and denial will not take us anywhere. Remembering what happened on the 1. May (according to Martić's and Babić's friend Štrbac) and totally forgetting about the shelling of Zagreb that took place the day after is bad for the reconciliation.

Anyways, I am glad that I know many people (of different nationalities)that are open for a decent discussion.

Peace

@Lola:

The crimes were committed by the people who have name and surname. Those people should pay the price regardless of their nationality. I don't feel punished if a Croatian war criminal is jailed and you should not feel punished too if Serbian criminal is imprisoned. Nevertheless, if leaders of some country hide their war criminals and deny their part of the guilt it is very likely that the ordinary people will feel the consequences.
Zagreb was not shelled by Serbs, it was shelled by Martić and his buddies. By stating that we are not accusing all Serbs, on contrary we're individualizing the guilt.
Less mythology and more facts is good for everyone. Nowadays, the kids don't have first hand memories from those events and all they know is what they see, hear and read in media. Therefore it's important not to poison them with nationalistic myths. Let them grow up normally. Maybe they can fix what our generation screwed up.

Peace

@mario and @realistic guy

Selective remembering huh? Hell from Serbia?
Its one thing to say none of this will help in reconciliation..that i can agree with. But everything happens as a chain of events. For you two to say "Croatia" had it bad in Yugoslavia, or to forget WWII and the Ustase is beyond shocking and inspicable. Serbia lost many during WWI and WWII, these are not wars fought in the 7th or 13th century. These are wars our mothers, fathers, and grand parents were part of. And usually an action triggers a reaction.

It is disguisting that the two of you have the guts to post here. estimated 45,000 to 55,000 Serbs only, murdered in Jasenovac in the most disturbing ways possible. Slit throats, brutal beatings and abuse. And you are telling me that Serbia would want to create the best of neighborly relations with croatia because of it?

Who are you kidding? Its amazing that you are being that selective. I dont know what planet youre from, or why youre on this site, but your two arguments are petty, uneducated, and ridiculous.

Let's forget aboout 50 years ago when we were murdered like dogs, and move on? You think that Serbia didnt have enough? When will people like you ever learn? And even still today Croats in Serbia are treated much better than Serbs in croatia.

And.. no one, i repeat no one makes a deal of the commemoration of these croat operation storm holidays, etc. but yet front news if the SErbs do. Your former president Stipe Mesic was the biggest fascist ustasa ever, and not afraid to admit it.

You guys come on here sounding like "oh, lets forgive..lets forget, even though you Serbs are so bad." yeah right.. get a clue and dont act that innocent. The state of croatia, nor either of you are . Period.

So many damn idiots on here commenting, not to mention the ustasa in denial Croats, but then people like 'Realistic Guy', which is funny because he isn't realistic at all, rather an ignorant who likes to play the liberal peacemaker.

Just some points for you.

You talk about moving on, can I ask you how on earth can you expect anyone to move on from such horrific crimes? which some Croats don't admit to and the vast majority wont apologise for, not to mention those who are fully aware of all their crimes are in fact proud of it. If I murdered your family in the name of a cause, would you so easily move on? no you wouldn't, unless you are a cold hearted animal.

When the Croats declared independence under a government which echoed many ustasa words which served as a cold and bitter memory to all Serbs, and after the commies tried to cover up the ustasa horrors, they came back to life, and the Serbs living in Krajina rightfully feared the worst, so they took up arms in defense. Oh and to all those Croats on their high horses, the Serbs wern't the ones seceding, Croatia already seceded from Yugoslavia, the Serbs just rightfully refused to seced with fascists.

And yet all of you cold hearted ustasa animals still cry over the Zagreb attacks, where either 7 or 8 people were killed, I forget. It seems that you follow the policy to a much worse extreme used by the Nazis in Serbia, 100 people to be killed for every German soldier killed, perhaps you people saw it fit to multiply that by a horrendus ammount.

I would rather sit tight though, because time moves on and systems change, and these days systems change extremely quickly. You proud Croats can go and worship in your evil catholic churches all you like, but God isnt blind. Catholic priests served in the ustasa and participated in their crimes, and with hiding Pavelic, until an ex-Chetnik turned MI6 agent tracked him down and let him have a long painful death. The Croat motto 'Bog i Hrvati' (God and the Croats) really isnt true, and I really dont think you should kid yourselves into thinking it is.

Serbs should kiss their tractors big time.

Realistic guy- the difference is the serbs have paid a heavy price for any crimes it may have committed. On the other hand the rabid croatian nationalism, of which we are all aware, goes unpunished. The whole war was basically a set up, engineered by Genscher and his quislings. Croatia did all it could to start the war, and everyone knows it. I spent every summer in Dubrovnik, went back recently and it is a shadow of its former self. Still beautiful, but dull. Many Croats miss Yugoslavia a lot.

@ Momcilo:

I really don't wanna reflect on a comment like this. In your head the World War 2 is still going on and you still look at the world trough the tribal lenses. I don't know why you found yourself offended and why you have to "attack" me ad hominem. Nevertheless, I know many Serbs that are not like you.

Peace.

Best decision Croatia ever made, just look what the Serbs are now doing in Bosnia

For someone here falsely claimed they won the war, you can twist anything in anyway you want to make yourselves happy and high. However, the truth that majority of the world including many Americans believed that, you did not win the war, instead, you did won lollipops from your sugar Daddy.

sj

for an economist, its funny that you do not know what industry actually means. you have service industry, financial industry and of course product industry. your definition is purely factories. that is all. well pay attention now, because for an alleged economist you seem not to understand what labour actually means. being employed is purely and simply having an income that is taxed. you can be employed in the media, in factories or in service industries like restaurants, hair dressing...whatever. now, as to your question, well, the Ferronikel complex is functioning. It employes 1000 workers. so there we have ONE example of your personal definition of industry. Then of course we go to the capital market. well, we have banks in Kosova believe it or not, Raiffasen Bank, Pro-Credit bank and they too employ local people. Then we go to the minimum-wage industries, they exist everywhere. so there we have it sunshine, that's the 3 facets of the economy where people get their income. my source is very simple, go to google, put Kosova unemployment, it does not reach the mythical figure of 85%. your source is not even your imagination, it your own personal wish.
as for Croatia, perhaps you want to ask Croats here if they are happy to have ceded from Yugoslavia

I'm tired of all this.

No disrespect to the victims, but it seems as though there is a commemoration every single month.

There has to be a better way to consolidate these commemorations and make them into a joint activity. The Croats and the Bosniaks made some progress last month when they commemorated each other's victims. Croatia's president did the same in Slavonia last year in an attempt to have Serbia's president Tadic finally commemorate the Vukovar tragedy.

It looks like progress is slowly, but surely, being made.

One-sided articles like this do not help this cause.

I still do not know any nation that will allow a group to establish a country within a country. That is exactly what the Serb's wanted to establish, were armed from Belgrade & fired rockets from Knin into Zagreb. What peace loving people they are, Croatia then had to step in & restore order. Lets not forget that Belgrade started 4 wars (Slovenia, Croatia, B & H, Kosova) & ended up losing them all. No one supported them in their cause including mighty Russia. The Serb dominated Ex Yugoslavia descriminated & gave Croatians a very hard time & that is the reason why Croatia wanted out of Yugoslavia. To justify what I'm saying the last Yugoslav president Stipe Mesic was not accepted from Belgrade (what brother unity rubbish). Lets all be good boys & stay peacefull within our borders.

Regards,

Mr. K

War happens on both sides, bad things had been committed and there is nothing you can do about it but move on and be realistic. The balkans are full of nationalistic individuals and thats fine. It's better everyone has thier own country but the thing that needs to happen is respect each other. Don't live in someone's country if you do not like the rules or getting mistreated, simply move.

Also, i see serbs living in Central Serbia as traitors.. They provided no help to RS or serbs in croatia. If Serbia actually sent thier whole army to Bosnia and Croatia, the war would of been solved. Makes no sense why they wouldn't send their whole army to help out their fellow Serbs. AND when serbian refugees where running back to serbia they were not even allowed to enter the country..

THE reason why Croats and Muslims aren't getting charged for war crimes is because when someone wins the war you get to call the shots.


So much for support..

a happy day for croatia! and more propaganda from the serbia press. sad day for freedom of the press in serbia!

"THE reason why Croats and Muslims aren't getting charged for war crimes is because when someone wins the war you get to call the shots. "

Not really - both Croats and Muslims have been charged. Considering that the large majority of civilian deaths in the wars were Muslim, Serbs have been undercharged as a group. The ICTY - especially under del Ponte - brought too many cases (that were too weak to be proved) against Croats and Muslims in an attempt to appear impartial to Serbs. Obviously, it didn't work. In my view, Gotovina and others were offered up as sacrificial rams in the interest of inter-ethnic peace. The sacrifice doesn't seem to have been deemed acceptable by the gods in charge of such things.

@Realistic guy,

You are a joke. You blame croatian serbs for having been 'radicalized' but the long history of croatian nationalism, the holocaust and wwii and Tudjman's behavior are not relevant to you even though those are all part of Tudjman*? Who's being selective and hypocritical here? All your comments how you prefer to stick to a narrow-minded interpretation of events that suit your opinion. Everything else is superfluous.

Maybe you also 'forgot' that Tudjman was invited to the opening of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum despite his denial and revisionism. That's beyond sick. Nope, but none of that is relevant.

@ Mario and Realistic guy

Serbs were 32% in 1849 in Croatia and Slavonia combined!!
At that time Sokci regarded themselves as Serbian Catholics.
again they were 19%, together 32+19=51% SERBS in Croatia-Slavonia: here you have it!

But by making Croats out of Catholics Serbs and by forceful making orthodox and protestant people Catholic. And by murdering Serbs in WW2 Croats became a huge majority.
There is nothing to be proud of your shameful history

As for greater Serbia, who liberated Zagreb Ljubljana Split Osjijek Rijeka Dubrovnik and all other cities/towns/villages?
The Serbian Army did!!!!!!!

Shame on all of you, Thinking you are Croats and hating other people

Make love not war/hate!

If you cant, pitty on you!



P.S.
This adventure has been a big lesson for Serbs and Serbia never again a union with the Croats!

If you knew your history BiH was historically a Catholic Kingdom and only over time was invited by un-desirables, like yourselves. For Kosova the Albanians were also there before the Serbs that's fact. Technically speaking Serbia only has claim from Novi Sad - Nis, that's it.
(Bam Bam, 2 May 2012 07:56)
Now what came first the chicken or the egg considering the period you are talking about in BiH was pre the great schism and they all belonged to the same Church.
This is the problem with Croats like you. For a very small nation your eyes are bigger than your stomach and your fantasy of a Croat empire is breath taking to say the least. Little wonder you and the Albanians are very similar; all piss and wind.
That is why the Serbs are going to do it right in Croatia this time. We maybe 70 years too late but this time will wipe you off the planet; little by little we dismember you and piece by piece will give your lands away. Look at who runs Croatia today LOL; it the Serbs. Zoran Milanovic has already started by minimizing Croat loses in Bleiberg and elevating Jasenoviac. And now we have Vukovar; he didnt even make it there nor did Josipovic.

Responding to 3) and 4) - Realistic Guy and to King Damir.

First Realistic Guy

"3) although the region was UN protected the rest of Croatia was very often bombed from this area. "

It was the first UN protected area that was attacked. It set the stage for two that were following - Srebrenica and "Oluja" (Storm).

It's interesting that same argument was used in Srebrenica. Supposed "demilitarized zone" was never disarmed and there was more then 200 UN- documented raids out of the zone until the fall of it. This forced Mladic to keep large number of troops around Srebrenica to fend off those attacks at the moment when he needed those troops elsewhere.

"4) after the operation Flash, Milan Martić ordered shelling of Zagreb which ended in killing 7 civilians and wounding 176."

This is the only thing about Operation Flash that had epilogue in the court of law.

"The entire world was watching, the UN, NATO, EU, Russia, everyone and everyone confirmed it was a brilliant operation, precise, with really no civilian casualties. Otherwise, the world would not have given the green light for Oluja."

Damir, you give "the world" (meaning West) way too much credit.

"I don't understand how the facts could have changed so much in 17 years. How is this allowed?"

Facts didn't change. They've been the same all along, but as Amnesty International would say it - things have been Behind the wall of silence, not only in Croatia.

And what are the facts?

"The Veritas data shows that 283 Serbs were killed or are still listed as missing as a result of Operation Flash, of whom 57 women and nine children under the age of 14.
Those civilians who could not or would not leave their homes were placed in camps, while Serb property and holy places were pillaged and destroyed. "

According to Documentation and Information Centre Veritas 283 Serbs were killed, including 57 women and 9 children...houses and churches burnt...

Any other source?
Yes.
Croatia Helsinki Committee for human rights released report on July 24, 2003.
Report was named ""Vojnoredarstvena akcija Bljesak" and here is the link.

http://www.hho.hr/adminmax/files/documents/Bljesak%20-%20izvjestaj.pdf

Report documented 83 CIVILIAN victims noting that number may not be final, as only those confirmed and documented cases were included.
Report ends with first and last names of 53 civilians who according to the report "stayed in their homes wishing to welcome Croatian authorities" and were killed in their homes by those authorities...
I somehow , doubt that they really wanted to welcome Croatian authorities. Given behavior of those authorities towards Serbs since the beginning, it's hard to believe...I simply think those were elderly and disabled who didn't manage to leave.

Back to subject - They documented 83 civilians "purposefully killed" during "Bljesak".
And then Milan Martić ordered shelling of Zagreb which ended in killing 7 civilians and wounding 176.
Faced with all those civilians deaths "The World" as King Damir calls it, decided to send strong message that this is not acceptable.
Hague Tribunal sentenced Milan Martic 35 years for the death of 7 civilians...

It's very interesting that everywhere on internet, almost every single post attacking Serbs were done by yourselves; in the meanwhile, you will see people all over the world supporting Serbia and Serbian people as always.

Since we all know, the fingers pointing at Serbs are filthy themselves, and that, you didn't win any war, instead, you did win lollipops from sugar Daddy.

Do you know people's reaction in USA? Everything negative regarding Serbs is from statesmen. Keep in mind, we Americans believe statesmen are the least trustworthy people. However, many ordinary Americans with no ties to the government stepped up voluntarily to support Serbia and Serbian people, including renowned scholars like Dr. Chompsky and Dr. Parenti, celebrities like George Clooney, radio personalities like Michael Savage, and many more but none for you.

The point is that the more you attack Serbia and Serbian people, the more we are convinced you are lying.

Way back in 1990, the mighty croats were (youtube video below):


Martin Spegelj and Josip Boljkovac with Transcripts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEwiuOD_biw

Martin Spegelj - Defense Minister of Croatia (24 August 1990 - 2 July 1991)

Josip Boljkovac - Minister of Internal Affairs of Croatia (30 May 1990 - 2 July 1991)

"There are 9.000 JNA officers and 18.000 JNA soldiers on the whole territory of Slovenia, Croatia and part of Bosnia. We have now 80.000 people armed with Kalashnikovs. We will resolve Knin in the way that we will butcher them. We have the international community, especially now when this whore has won in Serbia. Milosevic? Yes. Now, two days after he had won, the Americans offered to help us, and up until then they had only speculated they would -- they said, Now it will be like this, 1.000 armoured vehicles, cars, who knows what else. They will provide weapons and equipment for 100.000 soldiers, all free of charge."

" Free of charge. The army has no business there. They will be massacred. Everybody will be massacred already in their homes. To kill on the spot, on the street, in the army barracks compound, anywhere. Just take a pistol and shoot in the stomach. This will not be a conventional war. It will be a civil war with no consideration towards anyone. Not even towards women or not children. The bombs simply need to be thrown into family apartments.
"Physical liquidation. Somebody enters the apartment, the courier, he appears in front of the door, bang, bang, bang, and returns downstairs. Let them call the police to establish who was that. Then down the stairs he goes to the other and kills him at the same time. Don't mind the women or the children. It does not matter. We will use all means. We will also weapons. Serbs will neveragain be in Croatia as long as we are here."

@ Rush So by your logic Bam Bam I guess Croats in Mostar and Albanians in Serbia should have been wiped out for trying to create states within a state?

If you knew your history BiH was historically a Catholic Kingdom and only over time was invited by un-desirables, like yourselves. For Kosova the Albanians were also there before the Serbs that's fact. Technically speaking Serbia only has claim from Novi Sad - Nis, that's it.

The Great Powers including Russia are the real culprit of the crime. They have benefited themselves through centuries meddling in Balkans at the expense of your poor people. Don't act like you are winners. You are not! The real winners are drinking, chatting and having fun in their penthouse in New York, Paris, Berlin and London. From many many resources available in US, including those anti-Serbs ones, they all agree on that the first large scale violence between you guys was started by notorious Ustashe against Serbs in WWII. Secondly, Serbs did not start the recent violence in Croatia or in Bosia either but retaliated hard with violence. However, violence can't solve violence. It brews for next rounds. Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks are all Slavs no matter you admit or not. Slavic people are quarrelsome in nature. On top of that, Albanians know how to make trouble too. End of the story.

I still do not know any nation that will allow a group to establish a country within a country.

Regards,

Mr. K
(Mr. K, 2 May 2012 08:38)

That's exactly what Kosovo Albanians wanted to establish.
---------------------------
And it is a big question wheather Croatia had right to separate in the border of former Croatian YU republic. Croatia in that border didn't meet criteria for separation.

What did u expect...the croats to throw bread at them. Any group that wants to create a state within a state should be wiped out. We don't want you and we certainly don't need you-go home to Serbia where u belong as Krajina is no more....

I remember that days, especially that part were Serbian missiles and cluster bombs hit the center of Zagreb, including main squares, passengers trains and a children hospital.

It is absolutely understandable that Operation Bljesak, Operation Oluja and Operation Mistral were necessary. They brought peace to Croatia and ended the war.

Serbs brought their suffering on themselves. Croatia had shown no indication that minority rights wouldn't be respected. Instead, what Croat-Serbs elected to do, egged on by their clergy of course, is decide to cede from Croatia and form the so called Republic of Banja Luka. You should read the ethnic demography of that republic, where they expelled ALL Croats within its domain. The children of Krajina are to be pitied because they are innocent. The adults who so eagerly expelled Croats in the hope of creating the second empire of Dushan, ZERO sympathy for them. Instead of blaming the west all the time, blame yourselves and your priests

Serbs should kiss their tractors big time.

It seems as though the only problems which agonize Croatia are to have good relations with good neighbor Serbia. Good neighbor Serbian Communist Yugoslav Army (JNA), killed at least 15,000 Croatians and forcibly displaced, "cleansed," some 220,000 Croats from about one-third of Croatian territory. More than 15,000 (Fifteen THOUSAND!) Croats were murdered in areas occupied by rebel Serbs, and more than 4000 are still missing. Croatians should indeed be proud of their own liberation from such a hell.

If you Serbs have been slaughtered in this region is of your creation and your the initiators. There is no conflict or war in this region that you were not the initiators. You slaughtered enormous numbers in creation of a (GREATER SERBIA), but, however, as is generally known that you have lost every war and your murderers goal of a "Greater Serbia," and when you get in bunch of @#$%^ you have called to brothers Russians and the English for help. Did Serbia 'listen' to the 19% of its population that were Albanians when they wanted freedom?--no it just decided to slaughter them en masse. We exist as witnesses so you can't spread your lies no more. Serbia you are a most resist nation on this planet! We have learned two lessons from Serbia...aggression pays and the “EU new world order” is pretentious nonsense. And how you propose to defend Serbia—aggression when not one single Croatian soldier tread on Serbian soil, while Serbian soldiers knocked down one third of Croatia? Croatian solider defended his own country and did not engage in war on Serbian territory. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, Let there be no doubt, Serbia is guilt as sin of the wars as Serbs sought "Greater Serbia"

Realistic guy- the difference is the serbs have paid a heavy price for any crimes it may have committed. On the other hand the rabid croatian nationalism, of which we are all aware, goes unpunished. The whole war was basically a set up, engineered by Genscher and his quislings. Croatia did all it could to start the war, and everyone knows it. I spent every summer in Dubrovnik, went back recently and it is a shadow of its former self. Still beautiful, but dull. Many Croats miss Yugoslavia a lot.

sj

for an economist, its funny that you do not know what industry actually means. you have service industry, financial industry and of course product industry. your definition is purely factories. that is all. well pay attention now, because for an alleged economist you seem not to understand what labour actually means. being employed is purely and simply having an income that is taxed. you can be employed in the media, in factories or in service industries like restaurants, hair dressing...whatever. now, as to your question, well, the Ferronikel complex is functioning. It employes 1000 workers. so there we have ONE example of your personal definition of industry. Then of course we go to the capital market. well, we have banks in Kosova believe it or not, Raiffasen Bank, Pro-Credit bank and they too employ local people. Then we go to the minimum-wage industries, they exist everywhere. so there we have it sunshine, that's the 3 facets of the economy where people get their income. my source is very simple, go to google, put Kosova unemployment, it does not reach the mythical figure of 85%. your source is not even your imagination, it your own personal wish.
as for Croatia, perhaps you want to ask Croats here if they are happy to have ceded from Yugoslavia

It was a great success for german weapons, the United States Navy and the US using their 'retired' soldiers via front men from MPRI (Military Professional Resources Inc.) now owned by L3 and being sued in the US for its complicity in war crimes. Quite the victory for the land of the free.

Not surprised by the usual neo/Ustasi apologists here who still miss their holocaust denying president Tudjman (and his revisionist tome, Wastelands of Historical Truth (Bespuća povijesne zbiljnosti)- published in 1989 - a year before Izetbegovic's call to islamicize the Balkans his Islamic Declaration was republished, first published in 1970) and his rehabilitation of the Ustasi not to mention his revisionism existing since the 1960's and being involved in the 1971 Croatian Spring.

If only croatian serbs had accepted people like Tudjman. LOL! Just because the germans did?

Non-croats had their homes stolen (Kosor's downtown flat for example) and were kicked out of their jobs long before any fighting broke out in Croatia, many forced to sign oaths of loyalty to the Croatian state or be fired. Non-croats even in Zagreb were beaten up, ostracized and abused by their so-called neighbors whilst Ustasi war criminals were welcomed back to Croatia from south american countries with open arms, glorified in the state media and had streets renamed after them (like Mile Budak).

Danke your Deutschlande indeed. You didn't do any of it by yourselves.

Where did this story come from? It's amazing how the facts change over time. Operation Flash was a dress rehearsal for Oluja. The entire world was watching, the UN, NATO, EU, Russia, everyone and everyone confirmed it was a brilliant operation, precise, with really no civilian casualties. Otherwise, the world would not have given the green light for Oluja. Either what's written in this article is just more Serb propaganda or is it someone else trying to rewrite the history? I don't understand how the facts could have changed so much in 17 years. How is this allowed?

for all the atrocities committed in WWII against Serbs, zagreb had it coming, and still does. im sick of these comments of how we did this and that.. you people every pick up a book?
stop telling me about how Serbs did this and that.. many people i know lost generations in death camps during WWII. and what, 40 years later they should be happy and move on? this exodus is gross..and the attack is celebrated?

@mario and @realistic guy

Selective remembering huh? Hell from Serbia?
Its one thing to say none of this will help in reconciliation..that i can agree with. But everything happens as a chain of events. For you two to say "Croatia" had it bad in Yugoslavia, or to forget WWII and the Ustase is beyond shocking and inspicable. Serbia lost many during WWI and WWII, these are not wars fought in the 7th or 13th century. These are wars our mothers, fathers, and grand parents were part of. And usually an action triggers a reaction.

It is disguisting that the two of you have the guts to post here. estimated 45,000 to 55,000 Serbs only, murdered in Jasenovac in the most disturbing ways possible. Slit throats, brutal beatings and abuse. And you are telling me that Serbia would want to create the best of neighborly relations with croatia because of it?

Who are you kidding? Its amazing that you are being that selective. I dont know what planet youre from, or why youre on this site, but your two arguments are petty, uneducated, and ridiculous.

Let's forget aboout 50 years ago when we were murdered like dogs, and move on? You think that Serbia didnt have enough? When will people like you ever learn? And even still today Croats in Serbia are treated much better than Serbs in croatia.

And.. no one, i repeat no one makes a deal of the commemoration of these croat operation storm holidays, etc. but yet front news if the SErbs do. Your former president Stipe Mesic was the biggest fascist ustasa ever, and not afraid to admit it.

You guys come on here sounding like "oh, lets forgive..lets forget, even though you Serbs are so bad." yeah right.. get a clue and dont act that innocent. The state of croatia, nor either of you are . Period.

So many damn idiots on here commenting, not to mention the ustasa in denial Croats, but then people like 'Realistic Guy', which is funny because he isn't realistic at all, rather an ignorant who likes to play the liberal peacemaker.

Just some points for you.

You talk about moving on, can I ask you how on earth can you expect anyone to move on from such horrific crimes? which some Croats don't admit to and the vast majority wont apologise for, not to mention those who are fully aware of all their crimes are in fact proud of it. If I murdered your family in the name of a cause, would you so easily move on? no you wouldn't, unless you are a cold hearted animal.

When the Croats declared independence under a government which echoed many ustasa words which served as a cold and bitter memory to all Serbs, and after the commies tried to cover up the ustasa horrors, they came back to life, and the Serbs living in Krajina rightfully feared the worst, so they took up arms in defense. Oh and to all those Croats on their high horses, the Serbs wern't the ones seceding, Croatia already seceded from Yugoslavia, the Serbs just rightfully refused to seced with fascists.

And yet all of you cold hearted ustasa animals still cry over the Zagreb attacks, where either 7 or 8 people were killed, I forget. It seems that you follow the policy to a much worse extreme used by the Nazis in Serbia, 100 people to be killed for every German soldier killed, perhaps you people saw it fit to multiply that by a horrendus ammount.

I would rather sit tight though, because time moves on and systems change, and these days systems change extremely quickly. You proud Croats can go and worship in your evil catholic churches all you like, but God isnt blind. Catholic priests served in the ustasa and participated in their crimes, and with hiding Pavelic, until an ex-Chetnik turned MI6 agent tracked him down and let him have a long painful death. The Croat motto 'Bog i Hrvati' (God and the Croats) really isnt true, and I really dont think you should kid yourselves into thinking it is.

Serbs brought their suffering on themselves. Croatia had shown no indication that minority rights wouldn't be respected. Instead, what Croat-Serbs elected to do, egged on by their clergy of course, is decide to cede from Croatia and form the so called Republic of Banja Luka. You should read the ethnic demography of that republic, where they expelled ALL Croats within its domain. The children of Krajina are to be pitied because they are innocent. The adults who so eagerly expelled Croats in the hope of creating the second empire of Dushan, ZERO sympathy for them. Instead of blaming the west all the time, blame yourselves and your priests
(Nikolle, 1 May 2012 14:12)
As I have been saying many times look closely at the new government in Zagreb and you just might see who runs it. I give you a guess it’s not Croats.
Now if I was you I’d try and encourage some western industry to relocate to the so called independent Kosvoa and I’m still waiting on your response where all those Albanians are employed; you know sources and I don’t mean ketchup or BBQ either.

First of all, I have to say that I feel sorry for anyone that in any way suffered in the wars in former Yugoslavia. I wish we solved our disputes in a more peaceful manner but we haven't. However, now after the damage is done I believe that it is highly important that media tries to write about these events in less ideological way downplaying some facts or completely omitting them.
In this particular case, without minimizing the suffering of the Croatian Serbs in that region, one must at least mention some of the facts that are highly important for understanding the context.
1) many Serbs in this region were instrumentalized by Serbian nationalists and propagated Serbian extremism. Of course, not everyone was like that but it should be noted.
2) this region undergone ethnic cleansing of non-Serbs in a very violent way (there are videos on line how cheerful soldiers shoot at the hospital etc.). Again, this doesn't justify what happened later but it's important to know.
3) although the region was UN protected the rest of Croatia was very often bombed from this area.
4) after the operation Flash, Milan Martić ordered shelling of Zagreb which ended in killing 7 civilians and wounding 176.

So let's keep all this in mind and not propagate nationalistic myths while discussing victims.

Peace

@ Momcilo:

I really don't wanna reflect on a comment like this. In your head the World War 2 is still going on and you still look at the world trough the tribal lenses. I don't know why you found yourself offended and why you have to "attack" me ad hominem. Nevertheless, I know many Serbs that are not like you.

Peace.

@Momcilo:

Since World War 2 is your obsession I am sure you know how effective Nedić regime was in carrying out the Holocaust. Far more "effective" than NDH. Does that mean someone should punish for that the Serbs born in the 1970s?

Best decision Croatia ever made, just look what the Serbs are now doing in Bosnia

@Lola:

The crimes were committed by the people who have name and surname. Those people should pay the price regardless of their nationality. I don't feel punished if a Croatian war criminal is jailed and you should not feel punished too if Serbian criminal is imprisoned. Nevertheless, if leaders of some country hide their war criminals and deny their part of the guilt it is very likely that the ordinary people will feel the consequences.
Zagreb was not shelled by Serbs, it was shelled by Martić and his buddies. By stating that we are not accusing all Serbs, on contrary we're individualizing the guilt.
Less mythology and more facts is good for everyone. Nowadays, the kids don't have first hand memories from those events and all they know is what they see, hear and read in media. Therefore it's important not to poison them with nationalistic myths. Let them grow up normally. Maybe they can fix what our generation screwed up.

Peace

War happens on both sides, bad things had been committed and there is nothing you can do about it but move on and be realistic. The balkans are full of nationalistic individuals and thats fine. It's better everyone has thier own country but the thing that needs to happen is respect each other. Don't live in someone's country if you do not like the rules or getting mistreated, simply move.

Also, i see serbs living in Central Serbia as traitors.. They provided no help to RS or serbs in croatia. If Serbia actually sent thier whole army to Bosnia and Croatia, the war would of been solved. Makes no sense why they wouldn't send their whole army to help out their fellow Serbs. AND when serbian refugees where running back to serbia they were not even allowed to enter the country..

THE reason why Croats and Muslims aren't getting charged for war crimes is because when someone wins the war you get to call the shots.


So much for support..

So by your logic Bam Bam I guess Croats in Mostar and Albanians in Serbia should have been wiped out for trying to create states within a state?

@ nikolle

And greater albania is ok right? You albans will never learn so just enjoy the show while it lasts.

@Revise This:

Can we have any discussion about the wars in former Yugoslavia without talking about Ustashe, holocaust etc?
This is a text about particular event that took place on 1.May 1995. No one is mocking the victims here. However, the text is totally biased and very one sided. Selective remembering and denial will not take us anywhere. Remembering what happened on the 1. May (according to Martić's and Babić's friend Štrbac) and totally forgetting about the shelling of Zagreb that took place the day after is bad for the reconciliation.

Anyways, I am glad that I know many people (of different nationalities)that are open for a decent discussion.

Peace

I'm tired of all this.

No disrespect to the victims, but it seems as though there is a commemoration every single month.

There has to be a better way to consolidate these commemorations and make them into a joint activity. The Croats and the Bosniaks made some progress last month when they commemorated each other's victims. Croatia's president did the same in Slavonia last year in an attempt to have Serbia's president Tadic finally commemorate the Vukovar tragedy.

It looks like progress is slowly, but surely, being made.

One-sided articles like this do not help this cause.

@(UN) realistic guy
Nedic is no one any Serb should celebrate..and he was a Nazi collaborator. So therefore..two things again grossly wrong with your statement. Number one.. no Serb enjoys nazi collaboration unless theyre part of some skinhead group today, yes, not everyone is ok.

second you are comparing Nedic's movement, more effective than the Ustase regime? You kidding me? do you believe in numbers?
You really are beginning to make me see you are lost. clueless.

not every Serb is a good Serb, God knows that. I know that. But the Cetniks were also not as bad as they are made out to be, and Tito is the devil responsible for most of this. But one thing is certain, Ustase were the worst killers in the balkans in the last 500 years. period.

I still do not know any nation that will allow a group to establish a country within a country. That is exactly what the Serb's wanted to establish, were armed from Belgrade & fired rockets from Knin into Zagreb. What peace loving people they are, Croatia then had to step in & restore order. Lets not forget that Belgrade started 4 wars (Slovenia, Croatia, B & H, Kosova) & ended up losing them all. No one supported them in their cause including mighty Russia. The Serb dominated Ex Yugoslavia descriminated & gave Croatians a very hard time & that is the reason why Croatia wanted out of Yugoslavia. To justify what I'm saying the last Yugoslav president Stipe Mesic was not accepted from Belgrade (what brother unity rubbish). Lets all be good boys & stay peacefull within our borders.

Regards,

Mr. K

If you knew your history BiH was historically a Catholic Kingdom and only over time was invited by un-desirables, like yourselves. For Kosova the Albanians were also there before the Serbs that's fact. Technically speaking Serbia only has claim from Novi Sad - Nis, that's it.
(Bam Bam, 2 May 2012 07:56)
Now what came first the chicken or the egg considering the period you are talking about in BiH was pre the great schism and they all belonged to the same Church.
This is the problem with Croats like you. For a very small nation your eyes are bigger than your stomach and your fantasy of a Croat empire is breath taking to say the least. Little wonder you and the Albanians are very similar; all piss and wind.
That is why the Serbs are going to do it right in Croatia this time. We maybe 70 years too late but this time will wipe you off the planet; little by little we dismember you and piece by piece will give your lands away. Look at who runs Croatia today LOL; it the Serbs. Zoran Milanovic has already started by minimizing Croat loses in Bleiberg and elevating Jasenoviac. And now we have Vukovar; he didnt even make it there nor did Josipovic.

So by your logic Bam Bam I guess Croats in Mostar and Albanians in Serbia should have been wiped out for trying to create states within a state?
(Rush, 1 May 2012 12:42)
=================================

Of course not. Serbs are the only people who have not rights. Everyone else can do as they please.
People like bam bam really need a reality check.

"THE reason why Croats and Muslims aren't getting charged for war crimes is because when someone wins the war you get to call the shots. "

Not really - both Croats and Muslims have been charged. Considering that the large majority of civilian deaths in the wars were Muslim, Serbs have been undercharged as a group. The ICTY - especially under del Ponte - brought too many cases (that were too weak to be proved) against Croats and Muslims in an attempt to appear impartial to Serbs. Obviously, it didn't work. In my view, Gotovina and others were offered up as sacrificial rams in the interest of inter-ethnic peace. The sacrifice doesn't seem to have been deemed acceptable by the gods in charge of such things.

@(non) realistic guy

No, in my head WWII is not still going on. But the fact of the matter remains, if you wish to know the root of evil, the action and reaction, the cause of a region, you have to go back. As far i am concerned, WWII was not centuries ago, and no one is living in WWII. But DO NOT think that you dont offend Serbs on here, when you write things like "they attacked Zagreb, etc." The things that happened in WWII were gross and inhumane. And guys like Thompson still make concerts celebrating that regime.. and guys like you systematically choose what to portray or what not to. Makes it very clear that you are not only bias, but also uneducated.

Let me make you understand further.. after WWII Serbs were forced to live in a country with Croats. You think back then reconciliation was easy? Then when everyone wanted to secede, what do you believe the mindframe was then? Think about it. SErbs in Croatia..?? Let me fill you in.. 40 years ago there were death camps, im sure those Serbs in Croatian area didnt want to ever let that happen again. So naturally, they took to arms to defend themselves.

And on top of it Croats today still have the nerve to "gloat" about beating the Serbs in a war, when we all know that would have never happened had the Serbs in Serbia stuck up for their people. that is politics..i wont enter that.

Point is this.. croats today hate Serbs, as much as they did back then. And todays media doesn't portray croats celebrating "ethnic cleansing" on Yahoo's front page. Serbs do sometihng like that.. and its plastered everywhere.

So no ones living in the past.. its just not worth it. I dont have the time. No one does. But all Serbs should not be concerned with what their fascist neighbors think/believe. And the media is beyond unfair, and that is recognized everywhere as well. How many articles you read on croat war criminals? how many people know about Ustase and Jasenovac? I've been down this road before.

No ones wearing lenses.. you need to understand that Serbs have been much more forgiving, and they could have wiped out Croatia if there were not outside powers interfering. and yet today.. you go to croatia and get harassed/beaten for being Serbian. I read those articles every year..yet i dont see many of those cases here in Serbia.

Be objective, realistic, otherwise use a different name, because you are exactly not being that right now. and it is offensive to think someone is living in the past, thank you for telling me that i should forget about my grandfather that was tortured some 65 years ago. You act like cavemen existed back then. But sorry, i dont and cant forget the past. You just move on..but dont forget.

what a joke..

@ Rush So by your logic Bam Bam I guess Croats in Mostar and Albanians in Serbia should have been wiped out for trying to create states within a state?

If you knew your history BiH was historically a Catholic Kingdom and only over time was invited by un-desirables, like yourselves. For Kosova the Albanians were also there before the Serbs that's fact. Technically speaking Serbia only has claim from Novi Sad - Nis, that's it.

The Great Powers including Russia are the real culprit of the crime. They have benefited themselves through centuries meddling in Balkans at the expense of your poor people. Don't act like you are winners. You are not! The real winners are drinking, chatting and having fun in their penthouse in New York, Paris, Berlin and London. From many many resources available in US, including those anti-Serbs ones, they all agree on that the first large scale violence between you guys was started by notorious Ustashe against Serbs in WWII. Secondly, Serbs did not start the recent violence in Croatia or in Bosia either but retaliated hard with violence. However, violence can't solve violence. It brews for next rounds. Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks are all Slavs no matter you admit or not. Slavic people are quarrelsome in nature. On top of that, Albanians know how to make trouble too. End of the story.

@ Mario and Realistic guy

Serbs were 32% in 1849 in Croatia and Slavonia combined!!
At that time Sokci regarded themselves as Serbian Catholics.
again they were 19%, together 32+19=51% SERBS in Croatia-Slavonia: here you have it!

But by making Croats out of Catholics Serbs and by forceful making orthodox and protestant people Catholic. And by murdering Serbs in WW2 Croats became a huge majority.
There is nothing to be proud of your shameful history

As for greater Serbia, who liberated Zagreb Ljubljana Split Osjijek Rijeka Dubrovnik and all other cities/towns/villages?
The Serbian Army did!!!!!!!

Shame on all of you, Thinking you are Croats and hating other people

Make love not war/hate!

If you cant, pitty on you!



P.S.
This adventure has been a big lesson for Serbs and Serbia never again a union with the Croats!

Uh no, "King Damir" - deaths were reported at the time and an American UN worker, Stephanie Bond, who was there witnessed the murders and cleansing, and how Croatia got away with killings of civilians Serbs all throughout her time there.

a happy day for croatia! and more propaganda from the serbia press. sad day for freedom of the press in serbia!

Nikolle.

"Serbs brought their suffering on themselves. Croatia had shown no indication that minority rights wouldn't be respected. "

To the contrary - minority rights of Serbs were not respected. Far from it. There is plenty written on the subject and you should inform yourself. Perhaps you could start with latest Amnesty International report in regard with rights of the Serbs in Croatia even today.
It's called "Behind the wall of silence" and it's dated just year and a half ago ( December 2010).

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR64/003/2010/en/81544213-9880-4a5e-acea-d5269d0bc8ad/eur640032010en.pdf

To Realistic Guy

1) many non-Serbs in this region were instrumentalized by anti-Serbian nationalists and propagated anti-Serbian extremism. Of course, not everyone was like that but it should be noted.

2) this region undergone ethnic cleansing of Serbs in a very violent way


and I will now respond to 3) and 4) in a separate comment.

It's very interesting that everywhere on internet, almost every single post attacking Serbs were done by yourselves; in the meanwhile, you will see people all over the world supporting Serbia and Serbian people as always.

Since we all know, the fingers pointing at Serbs are filthy themselves, and that, you didn't win any war, instead, you did win lollipops from sugar Daddy.

Do you know people's reaction in USA? Everything negative regarding Serbs is from statesmen. Keep in mind, we Americans believe statesmen are the least trustworthy people. However, many ordinary Americans with no ties to the government stepped up voluntarily to support Serbia and Serbian people, including renowned scholars like Dr. Chompsky and Dr. Parenti, celebrities like George Clooney, radio personalities like Michael Savage, and many more but none for you.

The point is that the more you attack Serbia and Serbian people, the more we are convinced you are lying.

@Realistic guy,

You are a joke. You blame croatian serbs for having been 'radicalized' but the long history of croatian nationalism, the holocaust and wwii and Tudjman's behavior are not relevant to you even though those are all part of Tudjman*? Who's being selective and hypocritical here? All your comments how you prefer to stick to a narrow-minded interpretation of events that suit your opinion. Everything else is superfluous.

Maybe you also 'forgot' that Tudjman was invited to the opening of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum despite his denial and revisionism. That's beyond sick. Nope, but none of that is relevant.

Way back in 1990, the mighty croats were (youtube video below):


Martin Spegelj and Josip Boljkovac with Transcripts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEwiuOD_biw

Martin Spegelj - Defense Minister of Croatia (24 August 1990 - 2 July 1991)

Josip Boljkovac - Minister of Internal Affairs of Croatia (30 May 1990 - 2 July 1991)

"There are 9.000 JNA officers and 18.000 JNA soldiers on the whole territory of Slovenia, Croatia and part of Bosnia. We have now 80.000 people armed with Kalashnikovs. We will resolve Knin in the way that we will butcher them. We have the international community, especially now when this whore has won in Serbia. Milosevic? Yes. Now, two days after he had won, the Americans offered to help us, and up until then they had only speculated they would -- they said, Now it will be like this, 1.000 armoured vehicles, cars, who knows what else. They will provide weapons and equipment for 100.000 soldiers, all free of charge."

" Free of charge. The army has no business there. They will be massacred. Everybody will be massacred already in their homes. To kill on the spot, on the street, in the army barracks compound, anywhere. Just take a pistol and shoot in the stomach. This will not be a conventional war. It will be a civil war with no consideration towards anyone. Not even towards women or not children. The bombs simply need to be thrown into family apartments.
"Physical liquidation. Somebody enters the apartment, the courier, he appears in front of the door, bang, bang, bang, and returns downstairs. Let them call the police to establish who was that. Then down the stairs he goes to the other and kills him at the same time. Don't mind the women or the children. It does not matter. We will use all means. We will also weapons. Serbs will neveragain be in Croatia as long as we are here."

I still do not know any nation that will allow a group to establish a country within a country.

Regards,

Mr. K
(Mr. K, 2 May 2012 08:38)

That's exactly what Kosovo Albanians wanted to establish.
---------------------------
And it is a big question wheather Croatia had right to separate in the border of former Croatian YU republic. Croatia in that border didn't meet criteria for separation.

For someone here falsely claimed they won the war, you can twist anything in anyway you want to make yourselves happy and high. However, the truth that majority of the world including many Americans believed that, you did not win the war, instead, you did won lollipops from your sugar Daddy.

Responding to 3) and 4) - Realistic Guy and to King Damir.

First Realistic Guy

"3) although the region was UN protected the rest of Croatia was very often bombed from this area. "

It was the first UN protected area that was attacked. It set the stage for two that were following - Srebrenica and "Oluja" (Storm).

It's interesting that same argument was used in Srebrenica. Supposed "demilitarized zone" was never disarmed and there was more then 200 UN- documented raids out of the zone until the fall of it. This forced Mladic to keep large number of troops around Srebrenica to fend off those attacks at the moment when he needed those troops elsewhere.

"4) after the operation Flash, Milan Martić ordered shelling of Zagreb which ended in killing 7 civilians and wounding 176."

This is the only thing about Operation Flash that had epilogue in the court of law.

"The entire world was watching, the UN, NATO, EU, Russia, everyone and everyone confirmed it was a brilliant operation, precise, with really no civilian casualties. Otherwise, the world would not have given the green light for Oluja."

Damir, you give "the world" (meaning West) way too much credit.

"I don't understand how the facts could have changed so much in 17 years. How is this allowed?"

Facts didn't change. They've been the same all along, but as Amnesty International would say it - things have been Behind the wall of silence, not only in Croatia.

And what are the facts?

"The Veritas data shows that 283 Serbs were killed or are still listed as missing as a result of Operation Flash, of whom 57 women and nine children under the age of 14.
Those civilians who could not or would not leave their homes were placed in camps, while Serb property and holy places were pillaged and destroyed. "

According to Documentation and Information Centre Veritas 283 Serbs were killed, including 57 women and 9 children...houses and churches burnt...

Any other source?
Yes.
Croatia Helsinki Committee for human rights released report on July 24, 2003.
Report was named ""Vojnoredarstvena akcija Bljesak" and here is the link.

http://www.hho.hr/adminmax/files/documents/Bljesak%20-%20izvjestaj.pdf

Report documented 83 CIVILIAN victims noting that number may not be final, as only those confirmed and documented cases were included.
Report ends with first and last names of 53 civilians who according to the report "stayed in their homes wishing to welcome Croatian authorities" and were killed in their homes by those authorities...
I somehow , doubt that they really wanted to welcome Croatian authorities. Given behavior of those authorities towards Serbs since the beginning, it's hard to believe...I simply think those were elderly and disabled who didn't manage to leave.

Back to subject - They documented 83 civilians "purposefully killed" during "Bljesak".
And then Milan Martić ordered shelling of Zagreb which ended in killing 7 civilians and wounding 176.
Faced with all those civilians deaths "The World" as King Damir calls it, decided to send strong message that this is not acceptable.
Hague Tribunal sentenced Milan Martic 35 years for the death of 7 civilians...