Hungarian party "not advocating Vojvodina as republic"
The Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians (SVM) leader stated on Monday that the party does not advocate the idea of Vojvodina as "a republic", but a wide autonomy.
"Belgrade Serbia is monetarily robing Vojvodina province."
Lenard
If that's the case with Vojvodina then what should be said about south Croatia where revenues from your tourist attractions are feeding the entire country? Without tourism croats would be found all over europes shooping malls, holding up signs begging for money.
Nenad, I'm just in favor of majorities having their rights, and who to be governed by. The Greeks in N. Epirus would simply join Greece, and your little statelet comment holds no water there. Let's be fair, if Albanians can jump up and down in the Balkans and demand they be united with their brothers in Albania, the same desires and rights belong to other ethnic groups.
(ecoman, 27 March 2012 15:04)
Fair point, and I should have clarified what I meant. The "statelet comment" was inspired by the Abdic v. Izetbegovic conflict in BiH. Also, had Krajina been allowed to leave Croatia peacefully and BiH divided into cantons/whatever without civil war, then I don't think Serb parts of Croatia and Bosnia would have been annexed to FRY. Sandzak, too, would most likely have beeen blocked from joining up with BiH. So, in fact, you would have statelets, not to mention a huge headache involving border changes and probably population transfers.
In theory it isn't, however you have to look at the situation at hand in 1990-91. Croatia was part of YU and the Krajina Serbs wanted to remain within YU while the Croats wished to break away from the Yugoslav Federation. Zagreb's mass sackings of Serbs, communists, trade unionists and feminists from government posts as well as the rehabilitation of the Ustasa legacy did not exactly win over Croatia's Serbs and other loyal Yugoslavs now did they?
Tudjman's vision of an independent Croatia did not include Serbs or other non Croat minorities. You can see why Krajina Serbs started to arm themselves. History in the end proved them to be correct.
(Niall O'Doherty, 27 March 2012 16:51)
Well, this all assumes that the rhetoric on both sides was entirely true and that none of the actions weren't, at least in part, about posturing.
Not everyone believes that Milosevic was really for keeping YU together -- at least not by the early 90s. I'm sure a Tito-like dictatorship would have suited him just fine, but by the time it was clear that most of the other republics were on their way out, he probably had other plans. Naturally, you won't read much about those plans from posters on B92, but spend some time reading up on the subject using a wide array of sources, and you might start to think a bit differently. I've been looking at the history for many years, and in my humble opinion, the argument that Milosevic was about keeping YU intact just isn't well supported.
However, Tudjman was no saint either and I certainly agree that his treatment of Serbs in the days leading up to war was rather poor. But really, he was just another Milosevic, or Izetbegovic, or Karadzic, or Bulatovic, or...take your pick. In the end, all of these guys were nothing but power-hungry warlords who couldn't care less about ordinary people.
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
(Bam Bam, 27 March 2012 14:49)
LOL your math is about as strong as your logic. Krajina was a part of Croatia in which Serbs made up the majority. Hungarians form only a part of Vojvodina in the north around Szeged. So if they want autonomy, they can follow the Krajina Serbs and claim where they live, not the entire territory. But since that didn't work for Krajina, it isn't going to work for the Hungarians. :)
Lets see:
Will beside the Serbs, Croat/Slovaks/Romanians/Roma/Macedonians/Yugoslavs/Montenegrins/Bunjevac/Russyns/Ukrainians. Support a independent Vojvodina what's their interest in it?
These ethnic groups together were 80% of Vojvodina in 2002
Hungarians were 15% and 4% of the people did not declare their nationality and 1% were remaining ethnic groups..
I also do not think that many Hungarians want a independent vojvodina.
SO I assume a federation or independence will not happen.
Belgrade Serbia is monetarily robing Vojvodina province the few times I have been their that was the Vojvodinians take on happenings. Vojvodina as the more prosperous region is subsiding the poor Serbs Serbia south of the Danube/Sava rivers. Vojvodians feel used as a cash cow of Belgrade and Belgrade politicians. Resentment is their at being held back and their future going no where and prosperity in jeopardy.
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
(Bam Bam, 27 March 2012 14:49)
In theory it isn't, however you have to look at the situation at hand in 1990-91. Croatia was part of YU and the Krajina Serbs wanted to remain within YU while the Croats wished to break away from the Yugoslav Federation. Zagreb's mass sackings of Serbs, communists, trade unionists and feminists from government posts as well as the rehabilitation of the Ustasa legacy did not exactly win over Croatia's Serbs and other loyal Yugoslavs now did they?
Tudjman's vision of an independent Croatia did not include Serbs or other non Croat minorities. You can see why Krajina Serbs started to arm themselves. History in the end proved them to be correct.
...so what are they waiting for? let them agitate, bus as I said, they don't because, well, you go visit Northern Epirus and see all those Greeks who live there...see how 'big' a majority they are
From Wiki: According to a census law in Albania, there is a $1,000 fine for someone who will declare anything other than what was written down on his birth certificate, including certificates from the communist-era where minority status was limited to only 99 villages. Indeed, Omonoia unanimously decided to boycott the census, since it violates the fundamental right of self determination. Moreover, the Greek government called its Albanian counterpart for urgent action, since the right of free self-determination is not being guaranteed under these circumstances.
Nicolle, seems like your Albanian kin, I assume you are Albanian, since you are extremely Albanians biased on this site, did not even allow all minorities in Albania to claim they were something else than Albanian. Where on a birth certificate, in any country, is ethnicity stated - race yes, but not ethnicity. That is how, Nicolle and others, the Greek population in N. Epirus is minimized by the Tirana.
Bam Bam, we are talking about Vojvodina, here. How did you wind up in Krajna all of a sudden? Let FBiH and RS solve their own problems, the topic here is Vojvodina. I don't think that anyone is being a hypocrite, if they state that the Serbs are the overwhelming ethnicity in Vojvodina, and the Hungarians are a small faction. I just happened to talk about N. Epirus, because I found it interesting, and there are similarities in the Greek claims to that land, like the Albanian claims to Kosovo.
I don't understand why you think that Bam Bam is an Albanian and what has the Vojvodina issue to do with Albanians!!!! Honestly I don't give a dam about it because this is something to be solved between Serbs and Hungarians if they want to.
Your comment below is pretty poor like dust in the wind. Greek minority in Albania is recognized and respected like all other minorities. According to official statistics there are about 3% or around 60000 Greek minority living mainly in south Albania. They have schools in Greek language and also representatives in local and governmental levels. There are two ministers of Greek minority in Albanian government and also three PMembers. How many at least vice- s Albanians are in Serbian government!! NONE. As for Northern Epirus is exists only in history and in some nationalist minds which are close in opinions with Serbian nationalists.
"The Hungarians are only a small vocal minority and have all the rights as entitled to them.
The really issue when it comes to independence is Northern Epirus!
The Greek minority have been brutally oppressed for decades and have no rights what so ever!
In fact, according to Albania, they don’t even exist!
Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!"
Nenad, I'm just in favor of majorities having their rights, and who to be governed by. The Greeks in N. Epirus would simply join Greece, and your little statelet comment holds no water there. Let's be fair, if Albanians can jump up and down in the Balkans and demand they be united with their brothers in Albania, the same desires and rights belong to other ethnic groups.
Vojvodian is 70% Serbs and it will be 80-90% Serbs in a decade or two.. The hungarians are just just a bunch of agitetors like the morons in Sandjak.. Unless the super powers decide to curve out an independent Vojvodina(difficult since it's populated by Serbs mostly) than there wil lbe no Vojvodina.. But if you look at the platform of this hungarian party, they want indepdence for the small part where Hungarians are a majority but it won't happen becaause the EU won't let it. Even the cowardly tadic regime that's recognized kosovo more or less, won't let Vojvodina go away.
Even if it does one day, who cares because the borders under EU will all be open to one another.. It's their dream to create one "united states of Europe" without borders and having a "european" nationality.. all this other stuff is rubbish.
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
ecoman, irredentism is pretty worthless without the ability to bring independence to fruition. If all the minorities / disgruntled factions across the Balkans could achieve independence, you'd have too many countries to count.
MikeC, you honestly think Albanians remain in CG and MK because they'd rather be a minority in those countries than join Albania? Have you surveyed the Albanians in both places? I have heard that, back in the days of Tito, many Albanians living in Yugoslavia felt they were better off than their cousins over the border, but given the way things were for them back then, this is hardly surprising. Perhaps some Albanians could weigh in and tell us what they'd choose if the governments in Skoplje and Podgorica of today were to offer them peaceful secession in those areas where they are most heavily concentrated (essentially near the Albanian border).
Let them claim it, who cares? do you know why they don't? because its numbers are greatly exaggerated by the Orthodox alliance on these boards. Northern Epirus...deary me
From Wikipedia - Northern Epirus is a term used to refer to those parts of the historical region of Epirus, in the western Balkans, that are part of the modern Albania. A substantial ethnic Greek population in the region. It also has connotations with political claims on the territory on the grounds that it was held by Greece and in 1914 was declared an independent state by the local Greeks against annexation to the newly founded Albanian principality. The term is typically rejected by most Albanians for its irredentist associations. Nikolle, how is Northern Epirus any different to the Greeks, than the Albanian claim on Kosovo?
Serbs – Serbs constitute an absolute majority of people in Vojvodina. According to the 2002 census, there were 1,321,807 Serbs in Vojvodina or 65.05% of the population. Serbs also make up an absolute majority in most of the municipalities and large cities of Vojvodina, except in Subotica (second largest city), which has a mixed population with no absolute majority of any nation (but the Serbian language is dominant in Subotica). Large cities with a Serb ethnic majority are: Novi Sad (75.50%), Sombor (61.48%), Sremska Mitrovica (87.31%), Kikinda (76.43%), Zrenjanin (74.81%), Pančevo (76.38%), Vršac (72.50%), Ruma (86.58%), Bačka Palanka (78.59%), Inđija (84.87%), Kula (52.01%), Apatin (61.60%), and Temerin (64.20%). Other municipalities with a Serb ethnic majority are: Nova Crnja (70.31%), Novi Bečej (69.94%), Sečanj (70.87%), Žitište (61.90%), Novi Kneževac (59.53%), Alibunar (59.59%), Bela Crkva (76.85%), Kovin (76.75%), Opovo (86.30%), Plandište (56.36%), Odžaci (82.84%), Beočin (68.17%), Srbobran (67.00%), Sremski Karlovci (75.39%), Titel (84.93%), Žabalj (86.25%), Irig (79.49%), Pećinci (92.49%), Stara Pazova (81.16%), and Šid (77.62%). Serbs are also the largest ethnic group in Vrbas (47.77%) and Bač (46.69%). Serbian is one of six official languages of Vojvodina, and it is also a dominant language.
Now please, what chance does anyone think there is of Vojvodina becoming a Republic with Serbia? Politicians blowing smoke, as usual, saying things they think their electorate wants to hear. But that Epirus situation sounds interesting. The Greeks should go back with Greece, if they are a majority in that part of Albania.
"Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!"
Predrag
The fact is that albanians don't want to be ruled by albanians. Albanians in Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia would rather be ruled by their hosts then by their own. If not, we would have a united states of Albania. All you need to do is look how well Albania is doing to realize what awaits albanians in other parts of the balkans should they decide to look to Tirana.
The Hungarians are only a small vocal minority and have all the rights as entitled to them.
The really issue when it comes to independence is Northern Epirus!
The Greek minority have been brutally oppressed for decades and have no rights what so ever!
In fact, according to Albania, they don’t even exist!
Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!
The Hungarians are only the majority in a small extreme northern section of Vojvodina, so that part should be given "broad autonomy" and not the whole province. Serbs are the majority there and so only in the little sectors with Hungarian majority so they get it, if that's what they really want.
The Hungarians can't speak for all of Vojvodina when they are only in a small part of it.
Why don't you read the article instead of making rediculous conclusions based on your fantasy imagination. A 12 percent hungarian population in Vojvodina is no position to question the authority of Serbia. If Kosovo can't break away from Serbia what chance do you think Vojvodina has?
You should worry more about Kosovo not being partitioned and northern Epirus wishes to join Greece and leave poor Albania.
The Hungarians are only a small vocal minority and have all the rights as entitled to them.
The really issue when it comes to independence is Northern Epirus!
The Greek minority have been brutally oppressed for decades and have no rights what so ever!
In fact, according to Albania, they don’t even exist!
Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!
Serbs – Serbs constitute an absolute majority of people in Vojvodina. According to the 2002 census, there were 1,321,807 Serbs in Vojvodina or 65.05% of the population. Serbs also make up an absolute majority in most of the municipalities and large cities of Vojvodina, except in Subotica (second largest city), which has a mixed population with no absolute majority of any nation (but the Serbian language is dominant in Subotica). Large cities with a Serb ethnic majority are: Novi Sad (75.50%), Sombor (61.48%), Sremska Mitrovica (87.31%), Kikinda (76.43%), Zrenjanin (74.81%), Pančevo (76.38%), Vršac (72.50%), Ruma (86.58%), Bačka Palanka (78.59%), Inđija (84.87%), Kula (52.01%), Apatin (61.60%), and Temerin (64.20%). Other municipalities with a Serb ethnic majority are: Nova Crnja (70.31%), Novi Bečej (69.94%), Sečanj (70.87%), Žitište (61.90%), Novi Kneževac (59.53%), Alibunar (59.59%), Bela Crkva (76.85%), Kovin (76.75%), Opovo (86.30%), Plandište (56.36%), Odžaci (82.84%), Beočin (68.17%), Srbobran (67.00%), Sremski Karlovci (75.39%), Titel (84.93%), Žabalj (86.25%), Irig (79.49%), Pećinci (92.49%), Stara Pazova (81.16%), and Šid (77.62%). Serbs are also the largest ethnic group in Vrbas (47.77%) and Bač (46.69%). Serbian is one of six official languages of Vojvodina, and it is also a dominant language.
Now please, what chance does anyone think there is of Vojvodina becoming a Republic with Serbia? Politicians blowing smoke, as usual, saying things they think their electorate wants to hear. But that Epirus situation sounds interesting. The Greeks should go back with Greece, if they are a majority in that part of Albania.
Why don't you read the article instead of making rediculous conclusions based on your fantasy imagination. A 12 percent hungarian population in Vojvodina is no position to question the authority of Serbia. If Kosovo can't break away from Serbia what chance do you think Vojvodina has?
You should worry more about Kosovo not being partitioned and northern Epirus wishes to join Greece and leave poor Albania.
The Hungarians are only the majority in a small extreme northern section of Vojvodina, so that part should be given "broad autonomy" and not the whole province. Serbs are the majority there and so only in the little sectors with Hungarian majority so they get it, if that's what they really want.
The Hungarians can't speak for all of Vojvodina when they are only in a small part of it.
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
From Wikipedia - Northern Epirus is a term used to refer to those parts of the historical region of Epirus, in the western Balkans, that are part of the modern Albania. A substantial ethnic Greek population in the region. It also has connotations with political claims on the territory on the grounds that it was held by Greece and in 1914 was declared an independent state by the local Greeks against annexation to the newly founded Albanian principality. The term is typically rejected by most Albanians for its irredentist associations. Nikolle, how is Northern Epirus any different to the Greeks, than the Albanian claim on Kosovo?
Let them claim it, who cares? do you know why they don't? because its numbers are greatly exaggerated by the Orthodox alliance on these boards. Northern Epirus...deary me
Vojvodian is 70% Serbs and it will be 80-90% Serbs in a decade or two.. The hungarians are just just a bunch of agitetors like the morons in Sandjak.. Unless the super powers decide to curve out an independent Vojvodina(difficult since it's populated by Serbs mostly) than there wil lbe no Vojvodina.. But if you look at the platform of this hungarian party, they want indepdence for the small part where Hungarians are a majority but it won't happen becaause the EU won't let it. Even the cowardly tadic regime that's recognized kosovo more or less, won't let Vojvodina go away.
Even if it does one day, who cares because the borders under EU will all be open to one another.. It's their dream to create one "united states of Europe" without borders and having a "european" nationality.. all this other stuff is rubbish.
ecoman, irredentism is pretty worthless without the ability to bring independence to fruition. If all the minorities / disgruntled factions across the Balkans could achieve independence, you'd have too many countries to count.
MikeC, you honestly think Albanians remain in CG and MK because they'd rather be a minority in those countries than join Albania? Have you surveyed the Albanians in both places? I have heard that, back in the days of Tito, many Albanians living in Yugoslavia felt they were better off than their cousins over the border, but given the way things were for them back then, this is hardly surprising. Perhaps some Albanians could weigh in and tell us what they'd choose if the governments in Skoplje and Podgorica of today were to offer them peaceful secession in those areas where they are most heavily concentrated (essentially near the Albanian border).
Belgrade Serbia is monetarily robing Vojvodina province the few times I have been their that was the Vojvodinians take on happenings. Vojvodina as the more prosperous region is subsiding the poor Serbs Serbia south of the Danube/Sava rivers. Vojvodians feel used as a cash cow of Belgrade and Belgrade politicians. Resentment is their at being held back and their future going no where and prosperity in jeopardy.
"Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!"
Predrag
The fact is that albanians don't want to be ruled by albanians. Albanians in Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia would rather be ruled by their hosts then by their own. If not, we would have a united states of Albania. All you need to do is look how well Albania is doing to realize what awaits albanians in other parts of the balkans should they decide to look to Tirana.
...so what are they waiting for? let them agitate, bus as I said, they don't because, well, you go visit Northern Epirus and see all those Greeks who live there...see how 'big' a majority they are
"Belgrade Serbia is monetarily robing Vojvodina province."
Lenard
If that's the case with Vojvodina then what should be said about south Croatia where revenues from your tourist attractions are feeding the entire country? Without tourism croats would be found all over europes shooping malls, holding up signs begging for money.
I don't understand why you think that Bam Bam is an Albanian and what has the Vojvodina issue to do with Albanians!!!! Honestly I don't give a dam about it because this is something to be solved between Serbs and Hungarians if they want to.
Your comment below is pretty poor like dust in the wind. Greek minority in Albania is recognized and respected like all other minorities. According to official statistics there are about 3% or around 60000 Greek minority living mainly in south Albania. They have schools in Greek language and also representatives in local and governmental levels. There are two ministers of Greek minority in Albanian government and also three PMembers. How many at least vice- s Albanians are in Serbian government!! NONE. As for Northern Epirus is exists only in history and in some nationalist minds which are close in opinions with Serbian nationalists.
"The Hungarians are only a small vocal minority and have all the rights as entitled to them.
The really issue when it comes to independence is Northern Epirus!
The Greek minority have been brutally oppressed for decades and have no rights what so ever!
In fact, according to Albania, they don’t even exist!
Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!"
Bam Bam, we are talking about Vojvodina, here. How did you wind up in Krajna all of a sudden? Let FBiH and RS solve their own problems, the topic here is Vojvodina. I don't think that anyone is being a hypocrite, if they state that the Serbs are the overwhelming ethnicity in Vojvodina, and the Hungarians are a small faction. I just happened to talk about N. Epirus, because I found it interesting, and there are similarities in the Greek claims to that land, like the Albanian claims to Kosovo.
From Wiki: According to a census law in Albania, there is a $1,000 fine for someone who will declare anything other than what was written down on his birth certificate, including certificates from the communist-era where minority status was limited to only 99 villages. Indeed, Omonoia unanimously decided to boycott the census, since it violates the fundamental right of self determination. Moreover, the Greek government called its Albanian counterpart for urgent action, since the right of free self-determination is not being guaranteed under these circumstances.
Nicolle, seems like your Albanian kin, I assume you are Albanian, since you are extremely Albanians biased on this site, did not even allow all minorities in Albania to claim they were something else than Albanian. Where on a birth certificate, in any country, is ethnicity stated - race yes, but not ethnicity. That is how, Nicolle and others, the Greek population in N. Epirus is minimized by the Tirana.
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
(Bam Bam, 27 March 2012 14:49)
In theory it isn't, however you have to look at the situation at hand in 1990-91. Croatia was part of YU and the Krajina Serbs wanted to remain within YU while the Croats wished to break away from the Yugoslav Federation. Zagreb's mass sackings of Serbs, communists, trade unionists and feminists from government posts as well as the rehabilitation of the Ustasa legacy did not exactly win over Croatia's Serbs and other loyal Yugoslavs now did they?
Tudjman's vision of an independent Croatia did not include Serbs or other non Croat minorities. You can see why Krajina Serbs started to arm themselves. History in the end proved them to be correct.
Lets see:
Will beside the Serbs, Croat/Slovaks/Romanians/Roma/Macedonians/Yugoslavs/Montenegrins/Bunjevac/Russyns/Ukrainians. Support a independent Vojvodina what's their interest in it?
These ethnic groups together were 80% of Vojvodina in 2002
Hungarians were 15% and 4% of the people did not declare their nationality and 1% were remaining ethnic groups..
I also do not think that many Hungarians want a independent vojvodina.
SO I assume a federation or independence will not happen.
Nenad, I'm just in favor of majorities having their rights, and who to be governed by. The Greeks in N. Epirus would simply join Greece, and your little statelet comment holds no water there. Let's be fair, if Albanians can jump up and down in the Balkans and demand they be united with their brothers in Albania, the same desires and rights belong to other ethnic groups.
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
(Bam Bam, 27 March 2012 14:49)
LOL your math is about as strong as your logic. Krajina was a part of Croatia in which Serbs made up the majority. Hungarians form only a part of Vojvodina in the north around Szeged. So if they want autonomy, they can follow the Krajina Serbs and claim where they live, not the entire territory. But since that didn't work for Krajina, it isn't going to work for the Hungarians. :)
Nenad, I'm just in favor of majorities having their rights, and who to be governed by. The Greeks in N. Epirus would simply join Greece, and your little statelet comment holds no water there. Let's be fair, if Albanians can jump up and down in the Balkans and demand they be united with their brothers in Albania, the same desires and rights belong to other ethnic groups.
(ecoman, 27 March 2012 15:04)
Fair point, and I should have clarified what I meant. The "statelet comment" was inspired by the Abdic v. Izetbegovic conflict in BiH. Also, had Krajina been allowed to leave Croatia peacefully and BiH divided into cantons/whatever without civil war, then I don't think Serb parts of Croatia and Bosnia would have been annexed to FRY. Sandzak, too, would most likely have beeen blocked from joining up with BiH. So, in fact, you would have statelets, not to mention a huge headache involving border changes and probably population transfers.
In theory it isn't, however you have to look at the situation at hand in 1990-91. Croatia was part of YU and the Krajina Serbs wanted to remain within YU while the Croats wished to break away from the Yugoslav Federation. Zagreb's mass sackings of Serbs, communists, trade unionists and feminists from government posts as well as the rehabilitation of the Ustasa legacy did not exactly win over Croatia's Serbs and other loyal Yugoslavs now did they?
Tudjman's vision of an independent Croatia did not include Serbs or other non Croat minorities. You can see why Krajina Serbs started to arm themselves. History in the end proved them to be correct.
(Niall O'Doherty, 27 March 2012 16:51)
Well, this all assumes that the rhetoric on both sides was entirely true and that none of the actions weren't, at least in part, about posturing.
Not everyone believes that Milosevic was really for keeping YU together -- at least not by the early 90s. I'm sure a Tito-like dictatorship would have suited him just fine, but by the time it was clear that most of the other republics were on their way out, he probably had other plans. Naturally, you won't read much about those plans from posters on B92, but spend some time reading up on the subject using a wide array of sources, and you might start to think a bit differently. I've been looking at the history for many years, and in my humble opinion, the argument that Milosevic was about keeping YU intact just isn't well supported.
However, Tudjman was no saint either and I certainly agree that his treatment of Serbs in the days leading up to war was rather poor. But really, he was just another Milosevic, or Izetbegovic, or Karadzic, or Bulatovic, or...take your pick. In the end, all of these guys were nothing but power-hungry warlords who couldn't care less about ordinary people.
Why don't you read the article instead of making rediculous conclusions based on your fantasy imagination. A 12 percent hungarian population in Vojvodina is no position to question the authority of Serbia. If Kosovo can't break away from Serbia what chance do you think Vojvodina has?
You should worry more about Kosovo not being partitioned and northern Epirus wishes to join Greece and leave poor Albania.
"Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!"
Predrag
The fact is that albanians don't want to be ruled by albanians. Albanians in Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia would rather be ruled by their hosts then by their own. If not, we would have a united states of Albania. All you need to do is look how well Albania is doing to realize what awaits albanians in other parts of the balkans should they decide to look to Tirana.
From Wikipedia - Northern Epirus is a term used to refer to those parts of the historical region of Epirus, in the western Balkans, that are part of the modern Albania. A substantial ethnic Greek population in the region. It also has connotations with political claims on the territory on the grounds that it was held by Greece and in 1914 was declared an independent state by the local Greeks against annexation to the newly founded Albanian principality. The term is typically rejected by most Albanians for its irredentist associations. Nikolle, how is Northern Epirus any different to the Greeks, than the Albanian claim on Kosovo?
The Hungarians are only a small vocal minority and have all the rights as entitled to them.
The really issue when it comes to independence is Northern Epirus!
The Greek minority have been brutally oppressed for decades and have no rights what so ever!
In fact, according to Albania, they don’t even exist!
Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!
The Hungarians are only the majority in a small extreme northern section of Vojvodina, so that part should be given "broad autonomy" and not the whole province. Serbs are the majority there and so only in the little sectors with Hungarian majority so they get it, if that's what they really want.
The Hungarians can't speak for all of Vojvodina when they are only in a small part of it.
Serbs – Serbs constitute an absolute majority of people in Vojvodina. According to the 2002 census, there were 1,321,807 Serbs in Vojvodina or 65.05% of the population. Serbs also make up an absolute majority in most of the municipalities and large cities of Vojvodina, except in Subotica (second largest city), which has a mixed population with no absolute majority of any nation (but the Serbian language is dominant in Subotica). Large cities with a Serb ethnic majority are: Novi Sad (75.50%), Sombor (61.48%), Sremska Mitrovica (87.31%), Kikinda (76.43%), Zrenjanin (74.81%), Pančevo (76.38%), Vršac (72.50%), Ruma (86.58%), Bačka Palanka (78.59%), Inđija (84.87%), Kula (52.01%), Apatin (61.60%), and Temerin (64.20%). Other municipalities with a Serb ethnic majority are: Nova Crnja (70.31%), Novi Bečej (69.94%), Sečanj (70.87%), Žitište (61.90%), Novi Kneževac (59.53%), Alibunar (59.59%), Bela Crkva (76.85%), Kovin (76.75%), Opovo (86.30%), Plandište (56.36%), Odžaci (82.84%), Beočin (68.17%), Srbobran (67.00%), Sremski Karlovci (75.39%), Titel (84.93%), Žabalj (86.25%), Irig (79.49%), Pećinci (92.49%), Stara Pazova (81.16%), and Šid (77.62%). Serbs are also the largest ethnic group in Vrbas (47.77%) and Bač (46.69%). Serbian is one of six official languages of Vojvodina, and it is also a dominant language.
Now please, what chance does anyone think there is of Vojvodina becoming a Republic with Serbia? Politicians blowing smoke, as usual, saying things they think their electorate wants to hear. But that Epirus situation sounds interesting. The Greeks should go back with Greece, if they are a majority in that part of Albania.
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
(Bam Bam, 27 March 2012 14:49)
LOL your math is about as strong as your logic. Krajina was a part of Croatia in which Serbs made up the majority. Hungarians form only a part of Vojvodina in the north around Szeged. So if they want autonomy, they can follow the Krajina Serbs and claim where they live, not the entire territory. But since that didn't work for Krajina, it isn't going to work for the Hungarians. :)
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
Vojvodian is 70% Serbs and it will be 80-90% Serbs in a decade or two.. The hungarians are just just a bunch of agitetors like the morons in Sandjak.. Unless the super powers decide to curve out an independent Vojvodina(difficult since it's populated by Serbs mostly) than there wil lbe no Vojvodina.. But if you look at the platform of this hungarian party, they want indepdence for the small part where Hungarians are a majority but it won't happen becaause the EU won't let it. Even the cowardly tadic regime that's recognized kosovo more or less, won't let Vojvodina go away.
Even if it does one day, who cares because the borders under EU will all be open to one another.. It's their dream to create one "united states of Europe" without borders and having a "european" nationality.. all this other stuff is rubbish.
"Belgrade Serbia is monetarily robing Vojvodina province."
Lenard
If that's the case with Vojvodina then what should be said about south Croatia where revenues from your tourist attractions are feeding the entire country? Without tourism croats would be found all over europes shooping malls, holding up signs begging for money.
Let them claim it, who cares? do you know why they don't? because its numbers are greatly exaggerated by the Orthodox alliance on these boards. Northern Epirus...deary me
So it was OK for the Serbs of the so called Krajina region, who were in 1991 at 12%y to breakaway and form there own government but its not OK for the 15% of Hungarians living in Vojvodina. Double standards once again..
(Bam Bam, 27 March 2012 14:49)
In theory it isn't, however you have to look at the situation at hand in 1990-91. Croatia was part of YU and the Krajina Serbs wanted to remain within YU while the Croats wished to break away from the Yugoslav Federation. Zagreb's mass sackings of Serbs, communists, trade unionists and feminists from government posts as well as the rehabilitation of the Ustasa legacy did not exactly win over Croatia's Serbs and other loyal Yugoslavs now did they?
Tudjman's vision of an independent Croatia did not include Serbs or other non Croat minorities. You can see why Krajina Serbs started to arm themselves. History in the end proved them to be correct.
Nenad, I'm just in favor of majorities having their rights, and who to be governed by. The Greeks in N. Epirus would simply join Greece, and your little statelet comment holds no water there. Let's be fair, if Albanians can jump up and down in the Balkans and demand they be united with their brothers in Albania, the same desires and rights belong to other ethnic groups.
Belgrade Serbia is monetarily robing Vojvodina province the few times I have been their that was the Vojvodinians take on happenings. Vojvodina as the more prosperous region is subsiding the poor Serbs Serbia south of the Danube/Sava rivers. Vojvodians feel used as a cash cow of Belgrade and Belgrade politicians. Resentment is their at being held back and their future going no where and prosperity in jeopardy.
From Wiki: According to a census law in Albania, there is a $1,000 fine for someone who will declare anything other than what was written down on his birth certificate, including certificates from the communist-era where minority status was limited to only 99 villages. Indeed, Omonoia unanimously decided to boycott the census, since it violates the fundamental right of self determination. Moreover, the Greek government called its Albanian counterpart for urgent action, since the right of free self-determination is not being guaranteed under these circumstances.
Nicolle, seems like your Albanian kin, I assume you are Albanian, since you are extremely Albanians biased on this site, did not even allow all minorities in Albania to claim they were something else than Albanian. Where on a birth certificate, in any country, is ethnicity stated - race yes, but not ethnicity. That is how, Nicolle and others, the Greek population in N. Epirus is minimized by the Tirana.
Bam Bam, we are talking about Vojvodina, here. How did you wind up in Krajna all of a sudden? Let FBiH and RS solve their own problems, the topic here is Vojvodina. I don't think that anyone is being a hypocrite, if they state that the Serbs are the overwhelming ethnicity in Vojvodina, and the Hungarians are a small faction. I just happened to talk about N. Epirus, because I found it interesting, and there are similarities in the Greek claims to that land, like the Albanian claims to Kosovo.
Lets see:
Will beside the Serbs, Croat/Slovaks/Romanians/Roma/Macedonians/Yugoslavs/Montenegrins/Bunjevac/Russyns/Ukrainians. Support a independent Vojvodina what's their interest in it?
These ethnic groups together were 80% of Vojvodina in 2002
Hungarians were 15% and 4% of the people did not declare their nationality and 1% were remaining ethnic groups..
I also do not think that many Hungarians want a independent vojvodina.
SO I assume a federation or independence will not happen.
I don't understand why you think that Bam Bam is an Albanian and what has the Vojvodina issue to do with Albanians!!!! Honestly I don't give a dam about it because this is something to be solved between Serbs and Hungarians if they want to.
Your comment below is pretty poor like dust in the wind. Greek minority in Albania is recognized and respected like all other minorities. According to official statistics there are about 3% or around 60000 Greek minority living mainly in south Albania. They have schools in Greek language and also representatives in local and governmental levels. There are two ministers of Greek minority in Albanian government and also three PMembers. How many at least vice- s Albanians are in Serbian government!! NONE. As for Northern Epirus is exists only in history and in some nationalist minds which are close in opinions with Serbian nationalists.
"The Hungarians are only a small vocal minority and have all the rights as entitled to them.
The really issue when it comes to independence is Northern Epirus!
The Greek minority have been brutally oppressed for decades and have no rights what so ever!
In fact, according to Albania, they don’t even exist!
Hardly surprising, no one wants to live with Albanians!"
ecoman, irredentism is pretty worthless without the ability to bring independence to fruition. If all the minorities / disgruntled factions across the Balkans could achieve independence, you'd have too many countries to count.
MikeC, you honestly think Albanians remain in CG and MK because they'd rather be a minority in those countries than join Albania? Have you surveyed the Albanians in both places? I have heard that, back in the days of Tito, many Albanians living in Yugoslavia felt they were better off than their cousins over the border, but given the way things were for them back then, this is hardly surprising. Perhaps some Albanians could weigh in and tell us what they'd choose if the governments in Skoplje and Podgorica of today were to offer them peaceful secession in those areas where they are most heavily concentrated (essentially near the Albanian border).
...so what are they waiting for? let them agitate, bus as I said, they don't because, well, you go visit Northern Epirus and see all those Greeks who live there...see how 'big' a majority they are
Nenad, I'm just in favor of majorities having their rights, and who to be governed by. The Greeks in N. Epirus would simply join Greece, and your little statelet comment holds no water there. Let's be fair, if Albanians can jump up and down in the Balkans and demand they be united with their brothers in Albania, the same desires and rights belong to other ethnic groups.
(ecoman, 27 March 2012 15:04)
Fair point, and I should have clarified what I meant. The "statelet comment" was inspired by the Abdic v. Izetbegovic conflict in BiH. Also, had Krajina been allowed to leave Croatia peacefully and BiH divided into cantons/whatever without civil war, then I don't think Serb parts of Croatia and Bosnia would have been annexed to FRY. Sandzak, too, would most likely have beeen blocked from joining up with BiH. So, in fact, you would have statelets, not to mention a huge headache involving border changes and probably population transfers.
In theory it isn't, however you have to look at the situation at hand in 1990-91. Croatia was part of YU and the Krajina Serbs wanted to remain within YU while the Croats wished to break away from the Yugoslav Federation. Zagreb's mass sackings of Serbs, communists, trade unionists and feminists from government posts as well as the rehabilitation of the Ustasa legacy did not exactly win over Croatia's Serbs and other loyal Yugoslavs now did they?
Tudjman's vision of an independent Croatia did not include Serbs or other non Croat minorities. You can see why Krajina Serbs started to arm themselves. History in the end proved them to be correct.
(Niall O'Doherty, 27 March 2012 16:51)
Well, this all assumes that the rhetoric on both sides was entirely true and that none of the actions weren't, at least in part, about posturing.
Not everyone believes that Milosevic was really for keeping YU together -- at least not by the early 90s. I'm sure a Tito-like dictatorship would have suited him just fine, but by the time it was clear that most of the other republics were on their way out, he probably had other plans. Naturally, you won't read much about those plans from posters on B92, but spend some time reading up on the subject using a wide array of sources, and you might start to think a bit differently. I've been looking at the history for many years, and in my humble opinion, the argument that Milosevic was about keeping YU intact just isn't well supported.
However, Tudjman was no saint either and I certainly agree that his treatment of Serbs in the days leading up to war was rather poor. But really, he was just another Milosevic, or Izetbegovic, or Karadzic, or Bulatovic, or...take your pick. In the end, all of these guys were nothing but power-hungry warlords who couldn't care less about ordinary people.
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