Several dozen people protested in front of the Higher Court in Belgrade today against the possible rehabilitation of WW2-era Gen. Dragoljub Draža Mihailović.
This is the kind of thing only possible in Serbia, specifically in a Belgrade enchanted by the EU and the mythology of the west, nurtured on Tito-era nostalgia and history books. Read "The Forgotten 500" by Gregory Freeman, Martin's "Patriot or Traitor?" or "Greatest Rescues of World War II" and realize that Serbia had in Mihailovic a great leader, not a traitor, not a chauvinist, not a quisling. And like Serbs tend to do with anyone of worth in their own midst, they tried and murdered him, for the love of those who really don't care much for your nation's fate.
Tito was truly the Nazi Colloborator!! Not one single Ustasha was ever held to account for the horrendous crimes at Jasenovac. The Partisans (Tito's units) made very little effort to push back the Nazis and the Croatians. It was the Chetniks the real Serbian Army that caused the defeat of Nazi scum!! Don't let your communist ego get in the way of truth.
Speaking in the British Parliament on February 22, 1944, the then Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, said: “General Mihailovic, I much regret to say, drifted gradually into position where his commanders made accommodations with Italian and German troops…”
@Ataman..The difference is that the Ustase were a professional army with commissioned officers from 1941-45 and not some rag tag insurgents. The Partizans were more of an insurgency then anyone else up to 1945. At least the Ustase were clean shaven not like the cetniks who looked more like the Taliban with their beards under Draza then being a respectable group.
it means Ustanak-Ustani Sine ( Rise My Son). Being from Mostar-Banovina Hrvatska I think know my history.
(Bam Bam, 24 March 2012 05:05)
I have the impresson, "upriser" and "insurgent" do mean essentially the same in English.
Back to Croatian: take the original word, "ustani" - that is spelled "встань" in "my" language, the word "uprising" is "воссатние", I am pretty sure, same happens in Serbo-Croatian, so we are talking about the same thing. Regardless, I am not a Serb. And you barely will hear any difference between "ustani" and "встань" if spoken fast.
In Britain all official documents are kept in the National Archives in Kew, south-west London. Secret documents held in the Archives are subject to the "40 year rule." This rule states that secret documents must be released to the public after 40 years.
1984 was the 40th anniversary of the Communist takeover of Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav files held at the Archives were due to be opened within days when a high representative of the British Foreign Office went to see the then Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. After that meeting, Thatcher came out of 10 Downing Street and told the waiting Press that the Yugoslav files would be kept secret for another 50 years! She said this on live TV and I saw her.
If Serbia wants the truth about WW2, then it must ask the British to open its files.
As for General Mihailovic, it is clear that he was a Yugoslav patriot who fought foreign aggressors and local Quisling forces. His men were also responsible for the rescue of over 500 American airmen who were shot down over Serbia. The story of this amazing rescue would make an incredible Hollywood film.
The loss of General Mihailovic was not only a loss to the Serbian people but to all who love freedom and democracy. What a shame the world turned its back on freedoms proudest son and sold the Serbian people to monsters like Stalin and Tito.
God bless the men and women of the Royal Yugoslav Army, you showed the world what honor,courage, decency and compassion was.
For the sons and daughters of all freedom fighters around the world, i hope the rehabilitate him soon, we will erect your monuments in Ottawa and Washington you memory and deeds will never be forgotten.
For the Serbian guy who mentioned that meaning of the 'Ustase' means insurgency is once again false. For all you who don't know.... it means Ustanak-Ustani Sine ( Rise My Son). Being from Mostar-Banovina Hrvatska I think know my history.
D.M will be always be known as a sadistic-fascist leader who had no regard for non Serbs. The only positive thing Tito's gov. did during the commo era was to execute this maniac. D.M built the foundation for the Serb people to continue the slaughter [ Vukovar-Srebrenica].
Tito even had his eye on Albania
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
Ataman: He could, no doubt but he wasn't Serb to begin with.
Amer: Tito wanted Albania (and its ports) for Yugoslavia, not for Serbia. In fact, he promised the Kosovar Communists that if they rejoined Yugoslavia, there would be an election and they could join with Albania in some kind of union. After all, they were both Communist countries at the time. (As you mentioned.) It didn't seem to make much difference at the time. To him. Not Enver Hoxha.
--------
Amer: Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets.
Ataman: This is not unique to Ukraina, Nazis were welcomed by Russian villagers as well... as long as the villagers did not figure out, the nazi agenda had nothing to do with their liberation from Stalinism.
Amer: Sounds logical, but I've only seen pictures of the Ukrainians. Collectivization had been brutal everywhere, if course. To give peasants land, and then take it away from them - I guess some Russians still think it was necessary and heroic, though.
---
The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
Ataman: If you mean "allies against Russians" than it is not correct, see above.
Amer: Allies against the Soviet government, the one that had collectivized their land.
Ataman: "... would he not jump around with insane anti-Slavic and antisemitic outbreaks than he would get the entire Soviet Union plus Jugo behind of himself against the Great Britain and GB would have tough time.
Amer: Yes, it was a truly colossal blunder. Turning the Russians and Ukrainians (ok?) into enemies and devoting so much of his rail capacity to moving Jews around Europe - it's unbelievable that the military didn't remove him from the scene at some point well before the end. (What if he had not had to use energy fighting partisans and had been able to build a rail line into Russia to move supplies in by the trainload rather rather than haul everything in by horse-drawn wagon? It would have been a different war. And this chat would perhaps be conducted auf Deutsch.)
It’s good that there will be a more or less neutral investigation of Mikhailovic and his Cetniks during WW2. The info I have tells me that Drazko was a no doubt hero but Tito was also a hero and sooner or later the two independent Armies should clash. There’s a Russian saying that two bears cannot live in one cave. Every state where the Nazi entered they sponsored civil wars aggravating old problems. Up to now the veterans of Armia Kraiowa and Armia Ljudowa celebrate the Victory separately. In the Ukraine they install monuments to Hauptman Bendera whom Hitler personally hang the Iron Cross and even Russia makes no exclusion.
So the investigation will give us better understanding of what has happened in Serbia during the War. Serbia has made an extraordinary tribute to the Victory and you cannot paint it only in black and white. You also cannot estimate things out of the context or use the fashion dogmas of 21 centuries. The time was different and everybody acted in the circumstances. Draza rebelled while Tito supported the Nazi but then after June 22 things changed and they sometimes fought each other not only on the battle field but also in their propaganda. But searching for the truth Serbs should not let anybody doubt that their fathers composed the main striking force of the partisan movement outside the USSR.
I have obtained documents previously shut away but released early, these documents from the British Government clearly prove that Draza was a freedom fighter and not a collaborator. Those who protest come from former communist families who are so bitter that their filthy ideology no longer lives. It is time that Tito be branded an enemy of the Serbian people, including all those Serbs who sold their souls to him.
(SCP UK, 23 March 2012 23:07)
yea , and where exaclty are these documents?. I mean considering you are so special that somehow the you have access to classified documents as soon as this article was published. What a coincidence !!!!
Show us the money baby!!!!
You know the deal - "money talks , B*****it walks".
As far a I'm concerned, Draza Mihailovic was rehabilitated in 1948 when US President Harry Truman awarded him the Legion of Merit. These were the words he used explaining why he was giving this prestigious medal: 'General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslavian Army Forces and later as Minister of War by organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944. Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory.'
I have obtained documents previously shut away but released early, these documents from the British Government clearly prove that Draza was a freedom fighter and not a collaborator. Those who protest come from former communist families who are so bitter that their filthy ideology no longer lives. It is time that Tito be branded an enemy of the Serbian people, including all those Serbs who sold their souls to him.
Fact is that Churchill regreted helping Tito instead of Mihajlovic.
Marcia Christoff Kurapovna writes about this in her book "Shadows of the mountains". Churchill says that one of the biggest misstakes during WW2 was not supporting Mihajlovic. Funny then that the brits and the yanks would make the same misstake several years later when they supported terrorist uck. The west never learn.
Well it looks like Draza was right when it came to Yugoslavia. There is no Brotherhood and unity. Look what Serbia got from Tito a kick in the teeth and the blame for trusting trators from so called brothers of yugoslavia from WW2.When your neighbours are killing you you dont form a country with then you draw the line.Where Draza had his forces there was no consetration camps and no mass killings. Facist's were hunted down. Dont argue with me just read any history book from any country.
but to gain support against Serbian nationalism.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
AFAIK, Serbian nationalism was less of agenda in the Serbian-Croatian brawl of the first Yugoslavia, it was economics and ultimately the fight literally erupted in the parliament.
The ones who ultimately destroy the things were the "Insurgents", literally: "Ustashe", that word means "Insurgents".
I have to comment, usually "Insurgents" are the nationalists, now let's not compare Ustashe with any Serbian nationalist, that comparison does not stay.
---
Tito even had his eye on Albania
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
He could, no doubt but he wasn't Serb to begin with. Albania's currency at the time was Dinar, by the way and the question of Hungarian-Yugoslav-Albanian-Bulgarian confederation in a single country was up in the air.
Looking at what happened later it was unfortunate it did not happen. Stalin of course was all against it but his objections were not enough to destroy that dream, Western stupidity (as usual) was badly "needed".
---
Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
This is not unique to Ukraina, Nazis were welcomed by Russian villagers as well... as long as the villagers did not figure out, the nazi agenda had nothing to do with their liberation from Stalinism.
---
The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
If you mean "allies against Russians" than it is not correct, see above. Besides it is not easy to determine in Ukraina what village is "Russian", what is "Ukrainian" and where the dialect starts to form an other language. It is largely gradual. If you mean "allies against Great Britain" than it's correct. In 1941 America was not really the concern #1 of Germany, Great Britain was and indeed - would he not jump around with insane anti-Slavic and antisemitic outbreaks than he would get the entire Soviet Union plus Jugo behind of himself against the Great Britain and GB would have tough time. Of course Hitler was Hitler and what he did had no sense from military or strategic point of view, let's not talk about humanitarian things. He had strong opposition even from inside. Luckily some of the old-school Prussian commanders did sabotage the cruelties against local population and Jews. Unfortunately the German opposition was not successful killing Hitler in 1944.
Communist dogma sought to equate the genocide perpetrated by the NDH, with localised reprisals committed by Chetnik bands in occupied Yugoslavia. That some of these bands were responsible for revenge attacks nobody denies. But it is almost certain that they were acting independently of any centralised control. And these acts have to be considered in the context of the appalling atrocities taking place at the time. Mihailovic himself despised the Nazis. He was a career officer in the Serbian and Yugoslav army. To accuse him of being somehow pro-German is laughable. He was subjected to a show trial in a kangaroo court. And then duly shot. It was a political reckoning by Tito, nothing more. By all accounts he was a decent man swept away by events beyond his control. He wasn't a politician, and he was unprepared for what he was up against. Whether Serbia would have experienced the disaster of the 90's had he been victorious in 1945 we will never know.
The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
--
I would have said the "Germans fortunately threw away this advantage". Do you regret Germany losing the war? Your words suggest you do.
"Of course this won't stop our local revisionists (Ian UK, Albanians, Croatians, etc...) claiming otherwise. However, it is a bit ironic that their side have always supported the NAZIs."
Someday the WWII archives will become accessible, and the story of the fighting in Yugoslavia will be written. Until then, keep in mind that the locals aligned with the Germans not out of any particular admiration for Nazism, but to gain support against Serbian nationalism. Tito even had his eye on Albania, and if he hadn't been distracted by the Soviet threat and planned to move on it (if only politically) after the war. Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets. The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
It is about time that this great Serbian hero was recognised as such, what a pity it has taken so long.
God bless you Draza.
Remember Croats and Albanians, you were the ones that sided with Hitler and his Nazis and murdered hundreds of thousands of Serbian people and everyone knows it and we will never forget it.
Mihailovic's rehabilitation is long overdue. The Chetnik royalists fought for freedom and democracy against the Nazi's & Communists. Mihailovic's only crime was losing Jugoslavija to 50 years of communist dictatorship.
So here we have the British and Americans clearly stating that Draza did not collaborate with the NAZIs and have given him medals and awards, however, it is obvious that the old communists will simply continue to spew their lies.
It is a fact that the Chetniks were opposed to the NAZI but also opposed the communists. Lets not forget that Chetniks march proudly each year on ANZAC day in Australia with all of our other WWII allies.
Of course this won't stop our local revisionists (Ian UK, Albanians, Croatians, etc...) claiming otherwise. However, it is a bit ironic that their side have always supported the NAZIs.
It is established fact that Draza Mihailovic was a freedom fighter of the most respectful kind. He wanted freedom for the Serbs from both Nazi's and communism. He was killed for it and will always be considered one of the most amazing and freedom loving Generals in history.
It is established fact that Draza Mihailovic was a freedom fighter of the most respectful kind. He wanted freedom for the Serbs from both Nazi's and communism. He was killed for it and will always be considered one of the most amazing and freedom loving Generals in history.
Mihailovic's rehabilitation is long overdue. The Chetnik royalists fought for freedom and democracy against the Nazi's & Communists. Mihailovic's only crime was losing Jugoslavija to 50 years of communist dictatorship.
So here we have the British and Americans clearly stating that Draza did not collaborate with the NAZIs and have given him medals and awards, however, it is obvious that the old communists will simply continue to spew their lies.
It is a fact that the Chetniks were opposed to the NAZI but also opposed the communists. Lets not forget that Chetniks march proudly each year on ANZAC day in Australia with all of our other WWII allies.
Of course this won't stop our local revisionists (Ian UK, Albanians, Croatians, etc...) claiming otherwise. However, it is a bit ironic that their side have always supported the NAZIs.
It is about time that this great Serbian hero was recognised as such, what a pity it has taken so long.
God bless you Draza.
Remember Croats and Albanians, you were the ones that sided with Hitler and his Nazis and murdered hundreds of thousands of Serbian people and everyone knows it and we will never forget it.
Fact is that Churchill regreted helping Tito instead of Mihajlovic.
Marcia Christoff Kurapovna writes about this in her book "Shadows of the mountains". Churchill says that one of the biggest misstakes during WW2 was not supporting Mihajlovic. Funny then that the brits and the yanks would make the same misstake several years later when they supported terrorist uck. The west never learn.
I have obtained documents previously shut away but released early, these documents from the British Government clearly prove that Draza was a freedom fighter and not a collaborator. Those who protest come from former communist families who are so bitter that their filthy ideology no longer lives. It is time that Tito be branded an enemy of the Serbian people, including all those Serbs who sold their souls to him.
Communist dogma sought to equate the genocide perpetrated by the NDH, with localised reprisals committed by Chetnik bands in occupied Yugoslavia. That some of these bands were responsible for revenge attacks nobody denies. But it is almost certain that they were acting independently of any centralised control. And these acts have to be considered in the context of the appalling atrocities taking place at the time. Mihailovic himself despised the Nazis. He was a career officer in the Serbian and Yugoslav army. To accuse him of being somehow pro-German is laughable. He was subjected to a show trial in a kangaroo court. And then duly shot. It was a political reckoning by Tito, nothing more. By all accounts he was a decent man swept away by events beyond his control. He wasn't a politician, and he was unprepared for what he was up against. Whether Serbia would have experienced the disaster of the 90's had he been victorious in 1945 we will never know.
Well it looks like Draza was right when it came to Yugoslavia. There is no Brotherhood and unity. Look what Serbia got from Tito a kick in the teeth and the blame for trusting trators from so called brothers of yugoslavia from WW2.When your neighbours are killing you you dont form a country with then you draw the line.Where Draza had his forces there was no consetration camps and no mass killings. Facist's were hunted down. Dont argue with me just read any history book from any country.
The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
--
I would have said the "Germans fortunately threw away this advantage". Do you regret Germany losing the war? Your words suggest you do.
The loss of General Mihailovic was not only a loss to the Serbian people but to all who love freedom and democracy. What a shame the world turned its back on freedoms proudest son and sold the Serbian people to monsters like Stalin and Tito.
God bless the men and women of the Royal Yugoslav Army, you showed the world what honor,courage, decency and compassion was.
For the sons and daughters of all freedom fighters around the world, i hope the rehabilitate him soon, we will erect your monuments in Ottawa and Washington you memory and deeds will never be forgotten.
As far a I'm concerned, Draza Mihailovic was rehabilitated in 1948 when US President Harry Truman awarded him the Legion of Merit. These were the words he used explaining why he was giving this prestigious medal: 'General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslavian Army Forces and later as Minister of War by organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944. Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory.'
but to gain support against Serbian nationalism.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
AFAIK, Serbian nationalism was less of agenda in the Serbian-Croatian brawl of the first Yugoslavia, it was economics and ultimately the fight literally erupted in the parliament.
The ones who ultimately destroy the things were the "Insurgents", literally: "Ustashe", that word means "Insurgents".
I have to comment, usually "Insurgents" are the nationalists, now let's not compare Ustashe with any Serbian nationalist, that comparison does not stay.
---
Tito even had his eye on Albania
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
He could, no doubt but he wasn't Serb to begin with. Albania's currency at the time was Dinar, by the way and the question of Hungarian-Yugoslav-Albanian-Bulgarian confederation in a single country was up in the air.
Looking at what happened later it was unfortunate it did not happen. Stalin of course was all against it but his objections were not enough to destroy that dream, Western stupidity (as usual) was badly "needed".
---
Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
This is not unique to Ukraina, Nazis were welcomed by Russian villagers as well... as long as the villagers did not figure out, the nazi agenda had nothing to do with their liberation from Stalinism.
---
The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
If you mean "allies against Russians" than it is not correct, see above. Besides it is not easy to determine in Ukraina what village is "Russian", what is "Ukrainian" and where the dialect starts to form an other language. It is largely gradual. If you mean "allies against Great Britain" than it's correct. In 1941 America was not really the concern #1 of Germany, Great Britain was and indeed - would he not jump around with insane anti-Slavic and antisemitic outbreaks than he would get the entire Soviet Union plus Jugo behind of himself against the Great Britain and GB would have tough time. Of course Hitler was Hitler and what he did had no sense from military or strategic point of view, let's not talk about humanitarian things. He had strong opposition even from inside. Luckily some of the old-school Prussian commanders did sabotage the cruelties against local population and Jews. Unfortunately the German opposition was not successful killing Hitler in 1944.
"Of course this won't stop our local revisionists (Ian UK, Albanians, Croatians, etc...) claiming otherwise. However, it is a bit ironic that their side have always supported the NAZIs."
Someday the WWII archives will become accessible, and the story of the fighting in Yugoslavia will be written. Until then, keep in mind that the locals aligned with the Germans not out of any particular admiration for Nazism, but to gain support against Serbian nationalism. Tito even had his eye on Albania, and if he hadn't been distracted by the Soviet threat and planned to move on it (if only politically) after the war. Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets. The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
It’s good that there will be a more or less neutral investigation of Mikhailovic and his Cetniks during WW2. The info I have tells me that Drazko was a no doubt hero but Tito was also a hero and sooner or later the two independent Armies should clash. There’s a Russian saying that two bears cannot live in one cave. Every state where the Nazi entered they sponsored civil wars aggravating old problems. Up to now the veterans of Armia Kraiowa and Armia Ljudowa celebrate the Victory separately. In the Ukraine they install monuments to Hauptman Bendera whom Hitler personally hang the Iron Cross and even Russia makes no exclusion.
So the investigation will give us better understanding of what has happened in Serbia during the War. Serbia has made an extraordinary tribute to the Victory and you cannot paint it only in black and white. You also cannot estimate things out of the context or use the fashion dogmas of 21 centuries. The time was different and everybody acted in the circumstances. Draza rebelled while Tito supported the Nazi but then after June 22 things changed and they sometimes fought each other not only on the battle field but also in their propaganda. But searching for the truth Serbs should not let anybody doubt that their fathers composed the main striking force of the partisan movement outside the USSR.
In Britain all official documents are kept in the National Archives in Kew, south-west London. Secret documents held in the Archives are subject to the "40 year rule." This rule states that secret documents must be released to the public after 40 years.
1984 was the 40th anniversary of the Communist takeover of Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav files held at the Archives were due to be opened within days when a high representative of the British Foreign Office went to see the then Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. After that meeting, Thatcher came out of 10 Downing Street and told the waiting Press that the Yugoslav files would be kept secret for another 50 years! She said this on live TV and I saw her.
If Serbia wants the truth about WW2, then it must ask the British to open its files.
As for General Mihailovic, it is clear that he was a Yugoslav patriot who fought foreign aggressors and local Quisling forces. His men were also responsible for the rescue of over 500 American airmen who were shot down over Serbia. The story of this amazing rescue would make an incredible Hollywood film.
Speaking in the British Parliament on February 22, 1944, the then Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, said: “General Mihailovic, I much regret to say, drifted gradually into position where his commanders made accommodations with Italian and German troops…”
Tito was truly the Nazi Colloborator!! Not one single Ustasha was ever held to account for the horrendous crimes at Jasenovac. The Partisans (Tito's units) made very little effort to push back the Nazis and the Croatians. It was the Chetniks the real Serbian Army that caused the defeat of Nazi scum!! Don't let your communist ego get in the way of truth.
I have obtained documents previously shut away but released early, these documents from the British Government clearly prove that Draza was a freedom fighter and not a collaborator. Those who protest come from former communist families who are so bitter that their filthy ideology no longer lives. It is time that Tito be branded an enemy of the Serbian people, including all those Serbs who sold their souls to him.
(SCP UK, 23 March 2012 23:07)
yea , and where exaclty are these documents?. I mean considering you are so special that somehow the you have access to classified documents as soon as this article was published. What a coincidence !!!!
Show us the money baby!!!!
You know the deal - "money talks , B*****it walks".
D.M will be always be known as a sadistic-fascist leader who had no regard for non Serbs. The only positive thing Tito's gov. did during the commo era was to execute this maniac. D.M built the foundation for the Serb people to continue the slaughter [ Vukovar-Srebrenica].
For the Serbian guy who mentioned that meaning of the 'Ustase' means insurgency is once again false. For all you who don't know.... it means Ustanak-Ustani Sine ( Rise My Son). Being from Mostar-Banovina Hrvatska I think know my history.
@Ataman..The difference is that the Ustase were a professional army with commissioned officers from 1941-45 and not some rag tag insurgents. The Partizans were more of an insurgency then anyone else up to 1945. At least the Ustase were clean shaven not like the cetniks who looked more like the Taliban with their beards under Draza then being a respectable group.
Tito even had his eye on Albania
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
Ataman: He could, no doubt but he wasn't Serb to begin with.
Amer: Tito wanted Albania (and its ports) for Yugoslavia, not for Serbia. In fact, he promised the Kosovar Communists that if they rejoined Yugoslavia, there would be an election and they could join with Albania in some kind of union. After all, they were both Communist countries at the time. (As you mentioned.) It didn't seem to make much difference at the time. To him. Not Enver Hoxha.
--------
Amer: Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets.
Ataman: This is not unique to Ukraina, Nazis were welcomed by Russian villagers as well... as long as the villagers did not figure out, the nazi agenda had nothing to do with their liberation from Stalinism.
Amer: Sounds logical, but I've only seen pictures of the Ukrainians. Collectivization had been brutal everywhere, if course. To give peasants land, and then take it away from them - I guess some Russians still think it was necessary and heroic, though.
---
The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
Ataman: If you mean "allies against Russians" than it is not correct, see above.
Amer: Allies against the Soviet government, the one that had collectivized their land.
Ataman: "... would he not jump around with insane anti-Slavic and antisemitic outbreaks than he would get the entire Soviet Union plus Jugo behind of himself against the Great Britain and GB would have tough time.
Amer: Yes, it was a truly colossal blunder. Turning the Russians and Ukrainians (ok?) into enemies and devoting so much of his rail capacity to moving Jews around Europe - it's unbelievable that the military didn't remove him from the scene at some point well before the end. (What if he had not had to use energy fighting partisans and had been able to build a rail line into Russia to move supplies in by the trainload rather rather than haul everything in by horse-drawn wagon? It would have been a different war. And this chat would perhaps be conducted auf Deutsch.)
it means Ustanak-Ustani Sine ( Rise My Son). Being from Mostar-Banovina Hrvatska I think know my history.
(Bam Bam, 24 March 2012 05:05)
I have the impresson, "upriser" and "insurgent" do mean essentially the same in English.
Back to Croatian: take the original word, "ustani" - that is spelled "встань" in "my" language, the word "uprising" is "воссатние", I am pretty sure, same happens in Serbo-Croatian, so we are talking about the same thing. Regardless, I am not a Serb. And you barely will hear any difference between "ustani" and "встань" if spoken fast.
This is the kind of thing only possible in Serbia, specifically in a Belgrade enchanted by the EU and the mythology of the west, nurtured on Tito-era nostalgia and history books. Read "The Forgotten 500" by Gregory Freeman, Martin's "Patriot or Traitor?" or "Greatest Rescues of World War II" and realize that Serbia had in Mihailovic a great leader, not a traitor, not a chauvinist, not a quisling. And like Serbs tend to do with anyone of worth in their own midst, they tried and murdered him, for the love of those who really don't care much for your nation's fate.
"Of course this won't stop our local revisionists (Ian UK, Albanians, Croatians, etc...) claiming otherwise. However, it is a bit ironic that their side have always supported the NAZIs."
Someday the WWII archives will become accessible, and the story of the fighting in Yugoslavia will be written. Until then, keep in mind that the locals aligned with the Germans not out of any particular admiration for Nazism, but to gain support against Serbian nationalism. Tito even had his eye on Albania, and if he hadn't been distracted by the Soviet threat and planned to move on it (if only politically) after the war. Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets. The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
So here we have the British and Americans clearly stating that Draza did not collaborate with the NAZIs and have given him medals and awards, however, it is obvious that the old communists will simply continue to spew their lies.
It is a fact that the Chetniks were opposed to the NAZI but also opposed the communists. Lets not forget that Chetniks march proudly each year on ANZAC day in Australia with all of our other WWII allies.
Of course this won't stop our local revisionists (Ian UK, Albanians, Croatians, etc...) claiming otherwise. However, it is a bit ironic that their side have always supported the NAZIs.
D.M will be always be known as a sadistic-fascist leader who had no regard for non Serbs. The only positive thing Tito's gov. did during the commo era was to execute this maniac. D.M built the foundation for the Serb people to continue the slaughter [ Vukovar-Srebrenica].
It is established fact that Draza Mihailovic was a freedom fighter of the most respectful kind. He wanted freedom for the Serbs from both Nazi's and communism. He was killed for it and will always be considered one of the most amazing and freedom loving Generals in history.
Mihailovic's rehabilitation is long overdue. The Chetnik royalists fought for freedom and democracy against the Nazi's & Communists. Mihailovic's only crime was losing Jugoslavija to 50 years of communist dictatorship.
It is about time that this great Serbian hero was recognised as such, what a pity it has taken so long.
God bless you Draza.
Remember Croats and Albanians, you were the ones that sided with Hitler and his Nazis and murdered hundreds of thousands of Serbian people and everyone knows it and we will never forget it.
I have obtained documents previously shut away but released early, these documents from the British Government clearly prove that Draza was a freedom fighter and not a collaborator. Those who protest come from former communist families who are so bitter that their filthy ideology no longer lives. It is time that Tito be branded an enemy of the Serbian people, including all those Serbs who sold their souls to him.
(SCP UK, 23 March 2012 23:07)
yea , and where exaclty are these documents?. I mean considering you are so special that somehow the you have access to classified documents as soon as this article was published. What a coincidence !!!!
Show us the money baby!!!!
You know the deal - "money talks , B*****it walks".
For the Serbian guy who mentioned that meaning of the 'Ustase' means insurgency is once again false. For all you who don't know.... it means Ustanak-Ustani Sine ( Rise My Son). Being from Mostar-Banovina Hrvatska I think know my history.
The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
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I would have said the "Germans fortunately threw away this advantage". Do you regret Germany losing the war? Your words suggest you do.
Well it looks like Draza was right when it came to Yugoslavia. There is no Brotherhood and unity. Look what Serbia got from Tito a kick in the teeth and the blame for trusting trators from so called brothers of yugoslavia from WW2.When your neighbours are killing you you dont form a country with then you draw the line.Where Draza had his forces there was no consetration camps and no mass killings. Facist's were hunted down. Dont argue with me just read any history book from any country.
I have obtained documents previously shut away but released early, these documents from the British Government clearly prove that Draza was a freedom fighter and not a collaborator. Those who protest come from former communist families who are so bitter that their filthy ideology no longer lives. It is time that Tito be branded an enemy of the Serbian people, including all those Serbs who sold their souls to him.
Fact is that Churchill regreted helping Tito instead of Mihajlovic.
Marcia Christoff Kurapovna writes about this in her book "Shadows of the mountains". Churchill says that one of the biggest misstakes during WW2 was not supporting Mihajlovic. Funny then that the brits and the yanks would make the same misstake several years later when they supported terrorist uck. The west never learn.
Tito was truly the Nazi Colloborator!! Not one single Ustasha was ever held to account for the horrendous crimes at Jasenovac. The Partisans (Tito's units) made very little effort to push back the Nazis and the Croatians. It was the Chetniks the real Serbian Army that caused the defeat of Nazi scum!! Don't let your communist ego get in the way of truth.
Communist dogma sought to equate the genocide perpetrated by the NDH, with localised reprisals committed by Chetnik bands in occupied Yugoslavia. That some of these bands were responsible for revenge attacks nobody denies. But it is almost certain that they were acting independently of any centralised control. And these acts have to be considered in the context of the appalling atrocities taking place at the time. Mihailovic himself despised the Nazis. He was a career officer in the Serbian and Yugoslav army. To accuse him of being somehow pro-German is laughable. He was subjected to a show trial in a kangaroo court. And then duly shot. It was a political reckoning by Tito, nothing more. By all accounts he was a decent man swept away by events beyond his control. He wasn't a politician, and he was unprepared for what he was up against. Whether Serbia would have experienced the disaster of the 90's had he been victorious in 1945 we will never know.
Tito even had his eye on Albania
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
Ataman: He could, no doubt but he wasn't Serb to begin with.
Amer: Tito wanted Albania (and its ports) for Yugoslavia, not for Serbia. In fact, he promised the Kosovar Communists that if they rejoined Yugoslavia, there would be an election and they could join with Albania in some kind of union. After all, they were both Communist countries at the time. (As you mentioned.) It didn't seem to make much difference at the time. To him. Not Enver Hoxha.
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Amer: Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets.
Ataman: This is not unique to Ukraina, Nazis were welcomed by Russian villagers as well... as long as the villagers did not figure out, the nazi agenda had nothing to do with their liberation from Stalinism.
Amer: Sounds logical, but I've only seen pictures of the Ukrainians. Collectivization had been brutal everywhere, if course. To give peasants land, and then take it away from them - I guess some Russians still think it was necessary and heroic, though.
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The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
Ataman: If you mean "allies against Russians" than it is not correct, see above.
Amer: Allies against the Soviet government, the one that had collectivized their land.
Ataman: "... would he not jump around with insane anti-Slavic and antisemitic outbreaks than he would get the entire Soviet Union plus Jugo behind of himself against the Great Britain and GB would have tough time.
Amer: Yes, it was a truly colossal blunder. Turning the Russians and Ukrainians (ok?) into enemies and devoting so much of his rail capacity to moving Jews around Europe - it's unbelievable that the military didn't remove him from the scene at some point well before the end. (What if he had not had to use energy fighting partisans and had been able to build a rail line into Russia to move supplies in by the trainload rather rather than haul everything in by horse-drawn wagon? It would have been a different war. And this chat would perhaps be conducted auf Deutsch.)
The loss of General Mihailovic was not only a loss to the Serbian people but to all who love freedom and democracy. What a shame the world turned its back on freedoms proudest son and sold the Serbian people to monsters like Stalin and Tito.
God bless the men and women of the Royal Yugoslav Army, you showed the world what honor,courage, decency and compassion was.
For the sons and daughters of all freedom fighters around the world, i hope the rehabilitate him soon, we will erect your monuments in Ottawa and Washington you memory and deeds will never be forgotten.
it means Ustanak-Ustani Sine ( Rise My Son). Being from Mostar-Banovina Hrvatska I think know my history.
(Bam Bam, 24 March 2012 05:05)
I have the impresson, "upriser" and "insurgent" do mean essentially the same in English.
Back to Croatian: take the original word, "ustani" - that is spelled "встань" in "my" language, the word "uprising" is "воссатние", I am pretty sure, same happens in Serbo-Croatian, so we are talking about the same thing. Regardless, I am not a Serb. And you barely will hear any difference between "ustani" and "встань" if spoken fast.
@Ataman..The difference is that the Ustase were a professional army with commissioned officers from 1941-45 and not some rag tag insurgents. The Partizans were more of an insurgency then anyone else up to 1945. At least the Ustase were clean shaven not like the cetniks who looked more like the Taliban with their beards under Draza then being a respectable group.
Speaking in the British Parliament on February 22, 1944, the then Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, said: “General Mihailovic, I much regret to say, drifted gradually into position where his commanders made accommodations with Italian and German troops…”
but to gain support against Serbian nationalism.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
AFAIK, Serbian nationalism was less of agenda in the Serbian-Croatian brawl of the first Yugoslavia, it was economics and ultimately the fight literally erupted in the parliament.
The ones who ultimately destroy the things were the "Insurgents", literally: "Ustashe", that word means "Insurgents".
I have to comment, usually "Insurgents" are the nationalists, now let's not compare Ustashe with any Serbian nationalist, that comparison does not stay.
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Tito even had his eye on Albania
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
He could, no doubt but he wasn't Serb to begin with. Albania's currency at the time was Dinar, by the way and the question of Hungarian-Yugoslav-Albanian-Bulgarian confederation in a single country was up in the air.
Looking at what happened later it was unfortunate it did not happen. Stalin of course was all against it but his objections were not enough to destroy that dream, Western stupidity (as usual) was badly "needed".
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Aligning with the outside force (Italy or Germany) by non-Serbs was similar to the case in the Ukraine, where the locals originally welcomed the Nazis with bread and salt as liberators from the Soviets.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
This is not unique to Ukraina, Nazis were welcomed by Russian villagers as well... as long as the villagers did not figure out, the nazi agenda had nothing to do with their liberation from Stalinism.
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The Germans stupidly threw away this advantage with their anti-Slavic prejudice and ended up having to fight what could have been allies.
(Amer, 23 March 2012 18:25)
If you mean "allies against Russians" than it is not correct, see above. Besides it is not easy to determine in Ukraina what village is "Russian", what is "Ukrainian" and where the dialect starts to form an other language. It is largely gradual. If you mean "allies against Great Britain" than it's correct. In 1941 America was not really the concern #1 of Germany, Great Britain was and indeed - would he not jump around with insane anti-Slavic and antisemitic outbreaks than he would get the entire Soviet Union plus Jugo behind of himself against the Great Britain and GB would have tough time. Of course Hitler was Hitler and what he did had no sense from military or strategic point of view, let's not talk about humanitarian things. He had strong opposition even from inside. Luckily some of the old-school Prussian commanders did sabotage the cruelties against local population and Jews. Unfortunately the German opposition was not successful killing Hitler in 1944.
As far a I'm concerned, Draza Mihailovic was rehabilitated in 1948 when US President Harry Truman awarded him the Legion of Merit. These were the words he used explaining why he was giving this prestigious medal: 'General Dragoljub Mihailovich distinguished himself in an outstanding manner as Commander-in-Chief of the Yugoslavian Army Forces and later as Minister of War by organizing and leading important resistance forces against the enemy which occupied Yugoslavia, from December 1941 to December 1944. Through the undaunted efforts of his troops, many United States airmen were rescued and returned safely to friendly control. General Mihailovich and his forces, although lacking adequate supplies, and fighting under extreme hardships, contributed materially to the Allied cause, and were instrumental in obtaining a final Allied victory.'
It’s good that there will be a more or less neutral investigation of Mikhailovic and his Cetniks during WW2. The info I have tells me that Drazko was a no doubt hero but Tito was also a hero and sooner or later the two independent Armies should clash. There’s a Russian saying that two bears cannot live in one cave. Every state where the Nazi entered they sponsored civil wars aggravating old problems. Up to now the veterans of Armia Kraiowa and Armia Ljudowa celebrate the Victory separately. In the Ukraine they install monuments to Hauptman Bendera whom Hitler personally hang the Iron Cross and even Russia makes no exclusion.
So the investigation will give us better understanding of what has happened in Serbia during the War. Serbia has made an extraordinary tribute to the Victory and you cannot paint it only in black and white. You also cannot estimate things out of the context or use the fashion dogmas of 21 centuries. The time was different and everybody acted in the circumstances. Draza rebelled while Tito supported the Nazi but then after June 22 things changed and they sometimes fought each other not only on the battle field but also in their propaganda. But searching for the truth Serbs should not let anybody doubt that their fathers composed the main striking force of the partisan movement outside the USSR.
In Britain all official documents are kept in the National Archives in Kew, south-west London. Secret documents held in the Archives are subject to the "40 year rule." This rule states that secret documents must be released to the public after 40 years.
1984 was the 40th anniversary of the Communist takeover of Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav files held at the Archives were due to be opened within days when a high representative of the British Foreign Office went to see the then Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher. After that meeting, Thatcher came out of 10 Downing Street and told the waiting Press that the Yugoslav files would be kept secret for another 50 years! She said this on live TV and I saw her.
If Serbia wants the truth about WW2, then it must ask the British to open its files.
As for General Mihailovic, it is clear that he was a Yugoslav patriot who fought foreign aggressors and local Quisling forces. His men were also responsible for the rescue of over 500 American airmen who were shot down over Serbia. The story of this amazing rescue would make an incredible Hollywood film.
This is the kind of thing only possible in Serbia, specifically in a Belgrade enchanted by the EU and the mythology of the west, nurtured on Tito-era nostalgia and history books. Read "The Forgotten 500" by Gregory Freeman, Martin's "Patriot or Traitor?" or "Greatest Rescues of World War II" and realize that Serbia had in Mihailovic a great leader, not a traitor, not a chauvinist, not a quisling. And like Serbs tend to do with anyone of worth in their own midst, they tried and murdered him, for the love of those who really don't care much for your nation's fate.
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