Wednesday, 21.03.2012.
10:35
Serb Radical Party (SRS) leader Vojislav Šešelj finished Tuesday his closing argument before the Hague Tribunal.
Izvor: Tanjug
IMAGE SOURCE
pre 12 godina
I think the Hague is a joke clearly anyone with a bit of brain can clearly see that this whole process is set up and illegal. Anyone who tries to tell me otherwas must be dumb i sudgest go and view trial again. Seselj is inocant and man with unbelivable strenght.
pre 12 godina
OK, well at least you've conjured up something from the ICTY website, so that's a step in the right direction. When you provide backup such as this, I can start to take you a bit more seriously. I would need to look at much more than Morillion's testimony, though, but in any event, this is the Oric case, and the commentary was originally about Seselj.
So, back to Seselj. Think you can go and dig up enough evidence from court to prove your argument that he's completely innocent? And keep in mind, you need to present testimony and exhibits from both sides, not just Seselj's. I don't want to see only that Joe Schmoe from SRS has testified about what a great family guy Sveti Vojislav is, when meanwhile, some poor Muslim widow from Bijeljina has testified that Seselj's boys tortured and murdered her husband and son's while Seselj himself looked on and barked orders.
pre 12 godina
anyone who supports seselj is as demented as he is. and deserves life imprisonment. or better yet, institutionalization on a psych ward.
pre 12 godina
anyone who supports seselj is as demented as he is. and deserves life imprisonment. or better yet, institutionalization on a psych ward.
(Bob, 23 March 2012 14:45)
Life imprisonment for simply supporting a cause? That's called Nazism Bob. Thanks for revealing yourself
pre 12 godina
I can't even find any evidence that Bill Schiller testified at the Hague, which is just more proof that these are show trials. Why was he not allowed to testify? Did Madeline Albright make a phone call, pull her strings, and ordered him not to come, did he have death threats not to testify...? Did he testify and they simply ignored his evidence. They obviously ignored French General Philippe Morillon:
'Philippe Morillon clearly stated the name of the Bosnian Muslim commander Naser Oric who was known for being sadistic. On February 12 in 2004 at The Hague Tribunal Philippe Morillon testified that Bosnian Muslim forces under Naser Oric “engaged in attacks during Orthodox (Christian) holidays and destroyed villages, massacring all the inhabitants. This created a degree of hatred that was quite extraordinary in the region.”'
http://leejaywalker.wordpress.com/tag/naser-oric-is-a-war-criminal/
Morillon also testified:
'Asked by the ICTY prosecutor how Oric treated his Serb prisoners, General Morillon, who knew him well, replied that “Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in his area and over the population itself. I think that he realized that these were the rules of this horrific war, that he could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn’t even look for an excuse. It was simply a statement: One can’t be bothered with prisoners.” [7]'
http://theglobalrealm.com/2011/06/03/ratko-mladic-arrest-the-uses-and-hypocrisy-of-u-n-genocide/
Yet somehow, yes 'somehow', Oric was released. If the public knew the truth, they would know that Oric was the CAUSE of Srebrenica, and the real genocide occured in the Serbian villages around Srebrenica.
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=660
Now you Hague and NATO apologists know the truth. Wise people will write books about what a sham the Hague was, and are in fact already doing it, it will be the shame and black mark on NATO hypocrisy. Thank God that the US of A is going bankrupt, with leaders like Albright, Clark, Holbrooke, Clinton...who are all war criminals, they deserve it.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
Dragan there are probably 1000 times more postings on the internet showing Seseljs involvement with gruesome pictures and speeches than that of Oric but you still claim there is no evidence against him. How do you explain that.
pre 12 godina
Yep, this is the guy the fake NATO kangaroo court released, despite video evidence. I'm still waiting for your answer on how this could happen in a real court. I suspect I'll be waiting forever because you don't have an answer. And yes, I definitely did obliterate your argument, and take pleasure in doing that.
(Dragan, 22 March 2012 14:37)
I do not disagree that the possibility exists the Oric is guilty and may have been released. However, you cannot convict a person on newspaper articles and pictures that cannot be substantiated as valid. I did not listen to any of Oric's trial, I do not know of any of the evidence presented so yes I have to rely on the fact that the judges did their job. Again what is in papers and on the internet are usually compilations from many sources. The persons taking the pictures are the only people who can authenticate them, were these people available or pulled from files.
As you know many pictures of atrocities in the balkan wars have surface and floated around the internet and then given different sources according to who wants to make a point.
Again I cannot comment on Oric's individual case as I have not followed it. But my question to you what is a better system. How are you going to find unbiased judges. You base your opinion on HOW could they let theis person go? The best source of this information is to review the case files in their entirety.
But you say the judges nominated by their host nations and voted on by the UNGA are handpicked, I am looking for evidence to back that up.
You present evidence from the press, after claims that the evidence presented by the press for the war was manipulated, and exaggerated. What is the difference in your press notes and theirs?
These are the tasks judges must sort out. A thousand Serbs somewhere else especially in a foreign country are not proof something happened. One of more Serbs present willing to testify and their testimony being collaborated is.
But you still have not anwered my question as to what is a better system, and why is the same exact scenario the one being presented by Serbs as the only possible solution for the Organ havesting allegations?
To the person who drew the similarities in my screen name and Jim Jones, I had never noticed it, I will have to rewatch a documentary on him, it has been sometime. But in actuality the phrase came from when I paid off my mortgage to my home, it was finaced through acompany called New Day, and I said this is a New Day in my life. Corny I know but I liked it.
pre 12 godina
There is no mention of this article being used as evidence at trial. You know and I know he was probably involved in the atrocities, but the prosecution must still prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was. When I talk about evidence, I'm referring to exhibits used in a courtroom. Was this article used? Did Schiller testify under oath to its truthfulness? Did he specifically tell the court that he saw Oric on the tapes? Did he specifically state that no one had paid him to falsify a story? This is standard trial procedure. You talk about all the flaws of the ICTY, yet I see no indication that you have the faintest idea as to how trials work.
pre 12 godina
As someone has already pointed out to you, all you have in your comments is opinion. Well, everyone has one of those, but opinions are worthless without evidence to back them up, wouldn't you agree?
(Nenad, 22 March 2012 20:06)
Read what I wrote below, I've given you evidence. Read it again reeeeaaal sloooowwww if you must. In fact, when it comes to Naser Oric, there is video evidence, and countless witnesses to what he and his troops did. The evidence, in fact, is so overwhelming that you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to know that the man is guilty and a disgusting war criminal.
Wake up and use your brain for a change sunshine.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
Well, actually, no judgement on the war crimes indictments has been rendered yet, so at this point, you're only stating an opinion (not that your opinion would change if he were convicted, because I don't think there's any way you would ever view him as guilty). He has, however, been convicted twice of contempt, with a third ruling pending, I believe. I'm sure you'll argue that there, too, he's innocent, but I would once again request that you show evidence to support your position. Protected identities are protected identities. When you're told to keep names confidential, you shouldn't make them public. Seems fairly elementary to me.
As someone has already pointed out to you, all you have in your comments is opinion. Well, everyone has one of those, but opinions are worthless without evidence to back them up, wouldn't you agree? People like you and Zoran are always going on about NATO this, America that...but where can you conclusively show that, for instance, NATO started the war in the Balkans? Your answer is always something like, "well the evidence to prove that is carefully buried and will never see the light of day", but that's really not enough. The Hague can at least produce witnesses, wire taps and documents, but you -- all you have is a story that most of the world doesn't take seriously.
pre 12 godina
You'd be very hard-pressed to find a single Serb (or Muslim, for that matter) who doesn't believe that Oric committed war crimes, but those crimes have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. (Nenad, 22 March 2012 15:38)
Oh really? So if that is the case, then what basis do they have to accuse Seselj and keep him locked up for 9 years (and counting), since the only thing he is guilty of is free speech and thumbing his nose at the west? Seselj never even fired a shot at anyone, let alone took part in alleged attrocities, which Naser Oric boasted about and showed on video footage proudly. Your double standards are humorous and pathetic. Try again, this time use your brain.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
Dragan,
To complete the body of evidence supporting your position on Oric, can you also produce the findings of the ICTY with respect to such samples as the ones you have given? Because as unnecessary as it may seem, due process is a critical component of any fair trial. The court must be able to establish beyond reasonable doubt the veracity of such claims as (1) Oric actually ordered/carried out those crimes himself, and wasn't just claiming responsibility for someone else's crimes as a scare tactic and (2) this journalist is telling the truth about what he witnessed. I understand that to someone like you, there should hardly be any need to check the facts. But to a judge from a country like Korea or Mexico, it is standard procedure. Also, the exhibits need to be tendered very carefully in order to ensure that evidence can't be disallowed on the basis of some kind of technicality, no matter how outrageous that technicality may seem. Recall that OJ Simpson was "acquitted" of double-murder in 1995, even though hardly anyone who knew anything about the case actually believed him to be innocent. You'd be very hard-pressed to find a single Serb (or Muslim, for that matter) who doesn't believe that Oric committed war crimes, but those crimes have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. I'm pretty sure that you would assert that any failure to do so is the result of bias at the ICTY, which might be true, but you have to be able to demonstrate that. Otherwise, you're no more credible than the institution you're blaming.
pre 12 godina
Is it a coincidence that the person who found the link between this subject and the notorious Jim Jones, took a pseudonym of "a New Day" - part of the sentence that Jim Jones often repeated throughout his speeches?
Interesting logical deduction, like
Police officers are paid by the government,
Police officers have good salaries,
Police officers serve to protect order, catch criminals, etc.
During recruitment of the police officers, candidates are passing tests and other verifications to determine the "right profile",
There is even a mechanism to control the work of the police officers, etc
Therefore, police officers are fair, honest, they do not take bribes, do not kill, etc.
Right? No, unfortunately wrong! You have to follow much more complex path to be able to make such a statement, and again only without generalizations.
pre 12 godina
You asked for it:
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/oric.htm
'I met him in January, 1994, in his own home in Serb-surrounded Srebrenica.
On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric's Greatest Hits.
There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing.
Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork.
"We ambushed them," he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen.
The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: "We launched those guys to the moon," he boasted.
When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: "We killed 114 Serbs there."
Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.'
Bill Schiller, a reporter from the Toronto Star, is not a Serb, and this was from his article. So this guy, Oric, the guy who grinned while proudly showing severed heads on video, is the guy that the court that you claim is real and legitimate, released. Despite more blather from you, you still have not answered my question. How can a real court release this war criminal?
Here is some more of Oric's handiwork for you:
http://4international.me/2008/02/15/the-real-srebrenica-genocide-the-mass-murder-of-serbs-in-srebrenica-and-gorazde/
Yep, this is the guy the fake NATO kangaroo court released, despite video evidence. I'm still waiting for your answer on how this could happen in a real court. I suspect I'll be waiting forever because you don't have an answer. And yes, I definitely did obliterate your argument, and take pleasure in doing that.
pre 12 godina
Mr. New day, thanks for that long diatribe, but after all that blather you failed to address my question. How can the Hague release a monster like Oric, who bragged about mutilating Serbian civilians to western reporters, and even showed them video footage of this? The answer is very simple, it's a fake court, and the well paid judges are carefully selected to cooperate with the show trials. Do you need links? I've got plenty so just say the word.
In one very short paragraph I just obliterated your argument. Keep trying though, it's very amusing watching people bend over backwards trying to deny truth and logic.
Cheers!!!
(Dragan, 22 March 2012 12:42)
You did not obliterate anything, you seem to have the same problems Seselj has that if you sound offensive enough you have won a debate. You more proved my point, those on a losing side will always claim a court is corrupt. I would be interested in links that were not more Serbian prop blogs, that showed the corruption of these judges. Opinion pieces are not evidence though.
I have given you facts you gave me ---nothing!
pre 12 godina
Mr. New day, thanks for that long diatribe, but after all that blather you failed to address my question. How can the Hague release a monster like Oric, who bragged about mutilating Serbian civilians to western reporters, and even showed them video footage of this? The answer is very simple, it's a fake court, and the well paid judges are carefully selected to cooperate with the show trials. Do you need links? I've got plenty so just say the word.
In one very short paragraph I just obliterated your argument. Keep trying though, it's very amusing watching people bend over backwards trying to deny truth and logic.
Cheers!!!
pre 12 godina
New Day,
I certainly admire you for trying, but nothing ever gets through to the hard-liners. It's kind of like when US liberals and moderates try to get their conservative counterparts (many of which constitute the infamous Tea Party) to understand the wisdom behind universal healthcare, ending silly tax cuts, dealing with global warming (we're in the midst of yet another round of record- breaking temperatures on the East Coast), etc. NOTHING gets through.
pre 12 godina
The real heading is: Seselj finished- argument closed. You reap what you sow.
pre 12 godina
Some interesting facts about this "NATO" court, as so many of you like to refer to it.
1. Established by the UNSC.
2. Judges are elected by the UNGA.
3. Budget is derived from UN funds.
4. Of the 17 permanent judges listed on the official website 8 are from NATO member countries 9 are from non NATO countries.
5. Of the 9 "ad litem" judges listed 4 are from NATO member states, 5 are from non NATO member states
6. Of the 5 lead prosecutors listed 2 are from NATO member states, 3 are from non NATO member states.
All this is verifiable from the official website.
Now my questions to all of you are:
1. What more fair system could be established?
2. How can you argue this system is unjust but insist that the same people responsible for establishing and mandating the ICTY are the ONLY ones able to create a system for the alleged organ harvesting claims?
pre 12 godina
For those picky on words and definitions, the trial and the court itself are more falling under the definition of the "Show-Trial". Although, the leaps and lapses of logic presented by the prosecution can justify the additional usage of the term "kangaroo court" , in one of its etymological meanings.
pre 12 godina
The only kool aid drinkers, and there are plenty of them, are the brainwashed ignorant masses who think that the Hague is a real court. I guess you fall into that category. How can a real court release a monster like Naser Oric? Please answer me that one, as you sip on your kool aid. Ignorance is bliss.
Cheers!!
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 16:50)
Yes, I do believe the ICTY is a real court, but then again I am not a member of the group of people that are considered the major agressors in the Yugoslavian Wars. If you take a poll in any jurisdiction, in any country, or international setting. The people who are receiving convictions and punishments or on the losing side of judgments automatically claim immediately the judges, the court are corrupt, they were bribed, they were prejudicial, its a bum rap etc, etc, etc.
You and others refer to the ICTY as a NATO court, but it has judges from countries all over the world, even China you know the great Serbian friend. It was established by the UNSC, you know the organization that Serbia claims is the only one COMPETENT to establish an investigation into the alleged organ trade. So is the UNSC the right body to establish justice yes or no. It is not yes on Tuesday and no on Wednesday and then yes again Thursday.
Is the ICTY primarily financed with NATO money? It is financed by a UN budget. But like everything else in the UN budget the majority of monies come from the NATO countries.
A more fair system is impossible to establish. But guilt cannot be established as in your eyes based on whether they are Serb or not.
Guilty people are released by every court system in the world daily, sometimes due to lack of evidence, sometimes due to technicalities, sometimes because the judges just do not believe the credibility of witnesses. Also what is written in the press and passed over coffee in coffee shops is not evidence, and cannot be used as such.
You may have a cousin who has a friend who has an uncle that claims this happened. He could testify but you cannot. That is the problem much of the "evidence" in the balkans is simply this.
Now if you have proof that judges are dishonest, or corrupt you should bring it forward but just because you disagree with their decisions, that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
pre 12 godina
I don't think any educated Serb older than 25 years of age can consider this man as anything more than an idiot. He is a fool. First of all the Hague court was set up by the UN security council, not NATO, and the US does not even recognize its authority. The UN security council UNANIMOUSLY voted in favor of the the ICTY so we can thank Russia and China for their support there, go ahead, look it up, Russia voted in favor of this supposed NATO court. Does that make any sense? No, uneducated farm boys with internet access don't know the difference between the ICC, ICJ, UN, UNSC, and NATO so they just call it all NATO... idiots. The legal jurisdiction of the court is open to debate but that is not what is being debated here. How can anyone respect an idiot like Seselj? He sits in court, and uses profanity that a prostitute would be embarrassed to hear! He is the face and voice of our political elite? Talking about oral sex and eating human feces, this is an educated man?? This is someone people vote for? I don't support the Hague, I don't want a pro-EU pro-NATO BG government but I can not believe that this foul-mouthed senile fool is someone people would defend and support.
pre 12 godina
the hague to good for him he sould go hell....
pre 12 godina
Do you mean like the "yellow"painted house in N. Albania, where the KLA removed kidneys from kidnapped, innocent Serbs and other minorities? Yes, I believe that.
pre 12 godina
He is more deserving of a Nobel than anyone that has received it so far. (ZZ, 21 March 2012 13:44)
With comments like this , how can anyone possibly question the utter narrow stupid ignorance being exibited by the hyper-nationalists.
If have seen some pretty dumb comments from all sides on this site - but this one , without question , must be the dumbest of them all.
pre 12 godina
Not sure that's the best link, ACS. Score in the battle of Canadian Serbs: Danilo 1, ACS 0.
pre 12 godina
Danilo
Where exactly, if any, did you receive your post secondary school certificate, degree and or diploma?
By the way Danilo, I recommend you read the following definition of
"Kangaroo Court"
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=kangaroo%20court&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKangaroo_court&ei=jilqT97hGsz4ggeL4-2jCQ&usg=AFQjCNF9GD-TZpo6mmr4D2DiYyt8nsV0Xg
pre 12 godina
slight point of information. The term "kangaroo" court comes from the idea of "jumping over" defendant rights in order to have a SPEEDY trial. Seems the court is giving pretty wide berth to Seselj and his many antics and certainly not depriving him of any rights, including much free medical attention.
While some may have reasons to question the legitimacy of the ITCY, it's certainly no "kangaroo" court.
pre 12 godina
Seselj is a great man.
He showed the prosecution defeat.
Check his final statement from last week and this week.
Now it's up to the judge to decide.
pre 12 godina
Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 14:54)
I doubt he convinced one person of that. See you already thought it was true so you did not need convincing. If you think a wall is painted yellow, it does not take much to convince you it is painted yellow.
pre 12 godina
I think Jones and Seselj suffer from some of the same delusions, believe him if you want but be wary of the kool aid!
(a New Day, 21 March 2012 16:22)
The only kool aid drinkers, and there are plenty of them, are the brainwashed ignorant masses who think that the Hague is a real court. I guess you fall into that category. How can a real court release a monster like Naser Oric? Please answer me that one, as you sip on your kool aid. Ignorance is bliss.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 14:54)
# Comment link
Don't know if you know who Jim Jones was in the 70's but he had many devout followers too that beleived everything he said. When he went on about his superiority they believed him, when he talked about the secret CIA and govt persecutions they believed him. They believed everything he said was true right up until he convinced them to drink the poison kool aid. I think Jones and Seselj suffer from some of the same delusions, believe him if you want but be wary of the kool aid!
pre 12 godina
Saint Vojislav. The founder of the cult of the rusty spoon. A real saint. Together with Saint Željko Ražnatović a well deserved hero!
pre 12 godina
Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
pre 12 godina
Seselj, much as I abhor what he stands for, is right. The Hague Tribunal has turned this semi-psychotic ranter into a real victim of misadministered justice disgracing the Western world. As he says, he presents no real threat to anyone, and should be released forthwith.
pre 12 godina
He sounds to me like he has the arrogance of someone who really thinks that he has a right to rid the world of those that are inferior to himself (clarification: those who he believes is inferior to himself). He sounds like he is a danger to society and even if there was a shread of a chance he was not guilty or would be found not guilty, he still should never be allowed the opportunity to roam free in a civilized society.
pre 12 godina
To Kujon:
Nobel Prize is just a metaphor, although we could argue much about what contribution some made to get it, and from whose perspective, their nation's or external? But, Seselj's behavior and the strength of his beliefs and ideas, the sacrifice he was ready to make, allows him a bit of arrogance and boasting, especially as it seems like he was using that as one of the rare weapons he had at hand.
For me, and I am not a radical - not even a Serb, his stands made him equal to the heroes like William Wallace or Janosik, or Taras Bulba or Istok or Tito (allegedly) and many others (hoping that you know about at least one of them). At least, he definitely stands alone and above any other of the politicians that I had ever listened to (excluding the written material like e.g. about Peko Dapcevic that had similar passion to defend and suffer for his ideas).
pre 12 godina
He is more deserving of a Nobel than anyone that has received it so far. The tribunal is a sham and he stood up to it. He's been subjected to trumped up charges and he's stood up to them. Planted witnesses were fabricated and coached and he exposed them all. He was falsely accused and went to defend himself voluntarily. He was kept out of the Serbian body politic but chose to leave a public and permanent record for all to see and for history to judge. He was drugged and implanted with shoddy medical devices and he forced his body to endure until the end of the trial. It's said the winner gets to write the history books, in this case it was a shoddy and unscrupulous draft. He will probably die soon as his mission has neared it's end. All the rats can then celebrate before scurrying back into their holes, all the while never knowing the meaning of truth and dignity.
pre 12 godina
How is this ""You cannot beat me because I am morally and intellectually superior."" worthy of a nobel prize?
He is arrogant and boastful. I think the Hague is a joke and should be found guilty of keeping him in prison for so long but let's not go overboard and claim his arrogant boastful speech as anything to aspire to. It mentions nothing for the betterment of mankind or peace.
pre 12 godina
Remarkable strength of ideas and stamina, presenting his views and beliefs to the very end
If he would be an Indian or South-African "freedom fighter" he would probably qualify for the Nobel Prize. Whatever the verdict - and Seselj probably predicted it well, I will never forget his speech, actually his attitude and bravery to present it. Like from the best history stories that were telling us how once upon the time some people were able to trade everything for the idea, for the clean face and respect and therefore, indirectly, for their Nation.
pre 12 godina
He is more deserving of a Nobel than anyone that has received it so far. The tribunal is a sham and he stood up to it. He's been subjected to trumped up charges and he's stood up to them. Planted witnesses were fabricated and coached and he exposed them all. He was falsely accused and went to defend himself voluntarily. He was kept out of the Serbian body politic but chose to leave a public and permanent record for all to see and for history to judge. He was drugged and implanted with shoddy medical devices and he forced his body to endure until the end of the trial. It's said the winner gets to write the history books, in this case it was a shoddy and unscrupulous draft. He will probably die soon as his mission has neared it's end. All the rats can then celebrate before scurrying back into their holes, all the while never knowing the meaning of truth and dignity.
pre 12 godina
Remarkable strength of ideas and stamina, presenting his views and beliefs to the very end
If he would be an Indian or South-African "freedom fighter" he would probably qualify for the Nobel Prize. Whatever the verdict - and Seselj probably predicted it well, I will never forget his speech, actually his attitude and bravery to present it. Like from the best history stories that were telling us how once upon the time some people were able to trade everything for the idea, for the clean face and respect and therefore, indirectly, for their Nation.
pre 12 godina
To Kujon:
Nobel Prize is just a metaphor, although we could argue much about what contribution some made to get it, and from whose perspective, their nation's or external? But, Seselj's behavior and the strength of his beliefs and ideas, the sacrifice he was ready to make, allows him a bit of arrogance and boasting, especially as it seems like he was using that as one of the rare weapons he had at hand.
For me, and I am not a radical - not even a Serb, his stands made him equal to the heroes like William Wallace or Janosik, or Taras Bulba or Istok or Tito (allegedly) and many others (hoping that you know about at least one of them). At least, he definitely stands alone and above any other of the politicians that I had ever listened to (excluding the written material like e.g. about Peko Dapcevic that had similar passion to defend and suffer for his ideas).
pre 12 godina
Seselj, much as I abhor what he stands for, is right. The Hague Tribunal has turned this semi-psychotic ranter into a real victim of misadministered justice disgracing the Western world. As he says, he presents no real threat to anyone, and should be released forthwith.
pre 12 godina
Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
pre 12 godina
I think Jones and Seselj suffer from some of the same delusions, believe him if you want but be wary of the kool aid!
(a New Day, 21 March 2012 16:22)
The only kool aid drinkers, and there are plenty of them, are the brainwashed ignorant masses who think that the Hague is a real court. I guess you fall into that category. How can a real court release a monster like Naser Oric? Please answer me that one, as you sip on your kool aid. Ignorance is bliss.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
Seselj is a great man.
He showed the prosecution defeat.
Check his final statement from last week and this week.
Now it's up to the judge to decide.
pre 12 godina
You'd be very hard-pressed to find a single Serb (or Muslim, for that matter) who doesn't believe that Oric committed war crimes, but those crimes have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. (Nenad, 22 March 2012 15:38)
Oh really? So if that is the case, then what basis do they have to accuse Seselj and keep him locked up for 9 years (and counting), since the only thing he is guilty of is free speech and thumbing his nose at the west? Seselj never even fired a shot at anyone, let alone took part in alleged attrocities, which Naser Oric boasted about and showed on video footage proudly. Your double standards are humorous and pathetic. Try again, this time use your brain.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
How is this ""You cannot beat me because I am morally and intellectually superior."" worthy of a nobel prize?
He is arrogant and boastful. I think the Hague is a joke and should be found guilty of keeping him in prison for so long but let's not go overboard and claim his arrogant boastful speech as anything to aspire to. It mentions nothing for the betterment of mankind or peace.
pre 12 godina
He sounds to me like he has the arrogance of someone who really thinks that he has a right to rid the world of those that are inferior to himself (clarification: those who he believes is inferior to himself). He sounds like he is a danger to society and even if there was a shread of a chance he was not guilty or would be found not guilty, he still should never be allowed the opportunity to roam free in a civilized society.
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Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 14:54)
# Comment link
Don't know if you know who Jim Jones was in the 70's but he had many devout followers too that beleived everything he said. When he went on about his superiority they believed him, when he talked about the secret CIA and govt persecutions they believed him. They believed everything he said was true right up until he convinced them to drink the poison kool aid. I think Jones and Seselj suffer from some of the same delusions, believe him if you want but be wary of the kool aid!
pre 12 godina
slight point of information. The term "kangaroo" court comes from the idea of "jumping over" defendant rights in order to have a SPEEDY trial. Seems the court is giving pretty wide berth to Seselj and his many antics and certainly not depriving him of any rights, including much free medical attention.
While some may have reasons to question the legitimacy of the ITCY, it's certainly no "kangaroo" court.
pre 12 godina
You asked for it:
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/oric.htm
'I met him in January, 1994, in his own home in Serb-surrounded Srebrenica.
On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric's Greatest Hits.
There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing.
Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork.
"We ambushed them," he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen.
The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: "We launched those guys to the moon," he boasted.
When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: "We killed 114 Serbs there."
Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.'
Bill Schiller, a reporter from the Toronto Star, is not a Serb, and this was from his article. So this guy, Oric, the guy who grinned while proudly showing severed heads on video, is the guy that the court that you claim is real and legitimate, released. Despite more blather from you, you still have not answered my question. How can a real court release this war criminal?
Here is some more of Oric's handiwork for you:
http://4international.me/2008/02/15/the-real-srebrenica-genocide-the-mass-murder-of-serbs-in-srebrenica-and-gorazde/
Yep, this is the guy the fake NATO kangaroo court released, despite video evidence. I'm still waiting for your answer on how this could happen in a real court. I suspect I'll be waiting forever because you don't have an answer. And yes, I definitely did obliterate your argument, and take pleasure in doing that.
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I can't even find any evidence that Bill Schiller testified at the Hague, which is just more proof that these are show trials. Why was he not allowed to testify? Did Madeline Albright make a phone call, pull her strings, and ordered him not to come, did he have death threats not to testify...? Did he testify and they simply ignored his evidence. They obviously ignored French General Philippe Morillon:
'Philippe Morillon clearly stated the name of the Bosnian Muslim commander Naser Oric who was known for being sadistic. On February 12 in 2004 at The Hague Tribunal Philippe Morillon testified that Bosnian Muslim forces under Naser Oric “engaged in attacks during Orthodox (Christian) holidays and destroyed villages, massacring all the inhabitants. This created a degree of hatred that was quite extraordinary in the region.”'
http://leejaywalker.wordpress.com/tag/naser-oric-is-a-war-criminal/
Morillon also testified:
'Asked by the ICTY prosecutor how Oric treated his Serb prisoners, General Morillon, who knew him well, replied that “Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in his area and over the population itself. I think that he realized that these were the rules of this horrific war, that he could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn’t even look for an excuse. It was simply a statement: One can’t be bothered with prisoners.” [7]'
http://theglobalrealm.com/2011/06/03/ratko-mladic-arrest-the-uses-and-hypocrisy-of-u-n-genocide/
Yet somehow, yes 'somehow', Oric was released. If the public knew the truth, they would know that Oric was the CAUSE of Srebrenica, and the real genocide occured in the Serbian villages around Srebrenica.
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=660
Now you Hague and NATO apologists know the truth. Wise people will write books about what a sham the Hague was, and are in fact already doing it, it will be the shame and black mark on NATO hypocrisy. Thank God that the US of A is going bankrupt, with leaders like Albright, Clark, Holbrooke, Clinton...who are all war criminals, they deserve it.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
Saint Vojislav. The founder of the cult of the rusty spoon. A real saint. Together with Saint Željko Ražnatović a well deserved hero!
pre 12 godina
Danilo
Where exactly, if any, did you receive your post secondary school certificate, degree and or diploma?
By the way Danilo, I recommend you read the following definition of
"Kangaroo Court"
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=kangaroo%20court&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKangaroo_court&ei=jilqT97hGsz4ggeL4-2jCQ&usg=AFQjCNF9GD-TZpo6mmr4D2DiYyt8nsV0Xg
pre 12 godina
Do you mean like the "yellow"painted house in N. Albania, where the KLA removed kidneys from kidnapped, innocent Serbs and other minorities? Yes, I believe that.
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As someone has already pointed out to you, all you have in your comments is opinion. Well, everyone has one of those, but opinions are worthless without evidence to back them up, wouldn't you agree?
(Nenad, 22 March 2012 20:06)
Read what I wrote below, I've given you evidence. Read it again reeeeaaal sloooowwww if you must. In fact, when it comes to Naser Oric, there is video evidence, and countless witnesses to what he and his troops did. The evidence, in fact, is so overwhelming that you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to know that the man is guilty and a disgusting war criminal.
Wake up and use your brain for a change sunshine.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
anyone who supports seselj is as demented as he is. and deserves life imprisonment. or better yet, institutionalization on a psych ward.
(Bob, 23 March 2012 14:45)
Life imprisonment for simply supporting a cause? That's called Nazism Bob. Thanks for revealing yourself
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Mr. New day, thanks for that long diatribe, but after all that blather you failed to address my question. How can the Hague release a monster like Oric, who bragged about mutilating Serbian civilians to western reporters, and even showed them video footage of this? The answer is very simple, it's a fake court, and the well paid judges are carefully selected to cooperate with the show trials. Do you need links? I've got plenty so just say the word.
In one very short paragraph I just obliterated your argument. Keep trying though, it's very amusing watching people bend over backwards trying to deny truth and logic.
Cheers!!!
pre 12 godina
Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 14:54)
I doubt he convinced one person of that. See you already thought it was true so you did not need convincing. If you think a wall is painted yellow, it does not take much to convince you it is painted yellow.
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I don't think any educated Serb older than 25 years of age can consider this man as anything more than an idiot. He is a fool. First of all the Hague court was set up by the UN security council, not NATO, and the US does not even recognize its authority. The UN security council UNANIMOUSLY voted in favor of the the ICTY so we can thank Russia and China for their support there, go ahead, look it up, Russia voted in favor of this supposed NATO court. Does that make any sense? No, uneducated farm boys with internet access don't know the difference between the ICC, ICJ, UN, UNSC, and NATO so they just call it all NATO... idiots. The legal jurisdiction of the court is open to debate but that is not what is being debated here. How can anyone respect an idiot like Seselj? He sits in court, and uses profanity that a prostitute would be embarrassed to hear! He is the face and voice of our political elite? Talking about oral sex and eating human feces, this is an educated man?? This is someone people vote for? I don't support the Hague, I don't want a pro-EU pro-NATO BG government but I can not believe that this foul-mouthed senile fool is someone people would defend and support.
pre 12 godina
Is it a coincidence that the person who found the link between this subject and the notorious Jim Jones, took a pseudonym of "a New Day" - part of the sentence that Jim Jones often repeated throughout his speeches?
Interesting logical deduction, like
Police officers are paid by the government,
Police officers have good salaries,
Police officers serve to protect order, catch criminals, etc.
During recruitment of the police officers, candidates are passing tests and other verifications to determine the "right profile",
There is even a mechanism to control the work of the police officers, etc
Therefore, police officers are fair, honest, they do not take bribes, do not kill, etc.
Right? No, unfortunately wrong! You have to follow much more complex path to be able to make such a statement, and again only without generalizations.
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He is more deserving of a Nobel than anyone that has received it so far. (ZZ, 21 March 2012 13:44)
With comments like this , how can anyone possibly question the utter narrow stupid ignorance being exibited by the hyper-nationalists.
If have seen some pretty dumb comments from all sides on this site - but this one , without question , must be the dumbest of them all.
pre 12 godina
Some interesting facts about this "NATO" court, as so many of you like to refer to it.
1. Established by the UNSC.
2. Judges are elected by the UNGA.
3. Budget is derived from UN funds.
4. Of the 17 permanent judges listed on the official website 8 are from NATO member countries 9 are from non NATO countries.
5. Of the 9 "ad litem" judges listed 4 are from NATO member states, 5 are from non NATO member states
6. Of the 5 lead prosecutors listed 2 are from NATO member states, 3 are from non NATO member states.
All this is verifiable from the official website.
Now my questions to all of you are:
1. What more fair system could be established?
2. How can you argue this system is unjust but insist that the same people responsible for establishing and mandating the ICTY are the ONLY ones able to create a system for the alleged organ harvesting claims?
pre 12 godina
For those picky on words and definitions, the trial and the court itself are more falling under the definition of the "Show-Trial". Although, the leaps and lapses of logic presented by the prosecution can justify the additional usage of the term "kangaroo court" , in one of its etymological meanings.
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Well, actually, no judgement on the war crimes indictments has been rendered yet, so at this point, you're only stating an opinion (not that your opinion would change if he were convicted, because I don't think there's any way you would ever view him as guilty). He has, however, been convicted twice of contempt, with a third ruling pending, I believe. I'm sure you'll argue that there, too, he's innocent, but I would once again request that you show evidence to support your position. Protected identities are protected identities. When you're told to keep names confidential, you shouldn't make them public. Seems fairly elementary to me.
As someone has already pointed out to you, all you have in your comments is opinion. Well, everyone has one of those, but opinions are worthless without evidence to back them up, wouldn't you agree? People like you and Zoran are always going on about NATO this, America that...but where can you conclusively show that, for instance, NATO started the war in the Balkans? Your answer is always something like, "well the evidence to prove that is carefully buried and will never see the light of day", but that's really not enough. The Hague can at least produce witnesses, wire taps and documents, but you -- all you have is a story that most of the world doesn't take seriously.
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Not sure that's the best link, ACS. Score in the battle of Canadian Serbs: Danilo 1, ACS 0.
pre 12 godina
the hague to good for him he sould go hell....
pre 12 godina
The real heading is: Seselj finished- argument closed. You reap what you sow.
pre 12 godina
New Day,
I certainly admire you for trying, but nothing ever gets through to the hard-liners. It's kind of like when US liberals and moderates try to get their conservative counterparts (many of which constitute the infamous Tea Party) to understand the wisdom behind universal healthcare, ending silly tax cuts, dealing with global warming (we're in the midst of yet another round of record- breaking temperatures on the East Coast), etc. NOTHING gets through.
pre 12 godina
Mr. New day, thanks for that long diatribe, but after all that blather you failed to address my question. How can the Hague release a monster like Oric, who bragged about mutilating Serbian civilians to western reporters, and even showed them video footage of this? The answer is very simple, it's a fake court, and the well paid judges are carefully selected to cooperate with the show trials. Do you need links? I've got plenty so just say the word.
In one very short paragraph I just obliterated your argument. Keep trying though, it's very amusing watching people bend over backwards trying to deny truth and logic.
Cheers!!!
(Dragan, 22 March 2012 12:42)
You did not obliterate anything, you seem to have the same problems Seselj has that if you sound offensive enough you have won a debate. You more proved my point, those on a losing side will always claim a court is corrupt. I would be interested in links that were not more Serbian prop blogs, that showed the corruption of these judges. Opinion pieces are not evidence though.
I have given you facts you gave me ---nothing!
pre 12 godina
Dragan,
To complete the body of evidence supporting your position on Oric, can you also produce the findings of the ICTY with respect to such samples as the ones you have given? Because as unnecessary as it may seem, due process is a critical component of any fair trial. The court must be able to establish beyond reasonable doubt the veracity of such claims as (1) Oric actually ordered/carried out those crimes himself, and wasn't just claiming responsibility for someone else's crimes as a scare tactic and (2) this journalist is telling the truth about what he witnessed. I understand that to someone like you, there should hardly be any need to check the facts. But to a judge from a country like Korea or Mexico, it is standard procedure. Also, the exhibits need to be tendered very carefully in order to ensure that evidence can't be disallowed on the basis of some kind of technicality, no matter how outrageous that technicality may seem. Recall that OJ Simpson was "acquitted" of double-murder in 1995, even though hardly anyone who knew anything about the case actually believed him to be innocent. You'd be very hard-pressed to find a single Serb (or Muslim, for that matter) who doesn't believe that Oric committed war crimes, but those crimes have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. I'm pretty sure that you would assert that any failure to do so is the result of bias at the ICTY, which might be true, but you have to be able to demonstrate that. Otherwise, you're no more credible than the institution you're blaming.
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OK, well at least you've conjured up something from the ICTY website, so that's a step in the right direction. When you provide backup such as this, I can start to take you a bit more seriously. I would need to look at much more than Morillion's testimony, though, but in any event, this is the Oric case, and the commentary was originally about Seselj.
So, back to Seselj. Think you can go and dig up enough evidence from court to prove your argument that he's completely innocent? And keep in mind, you need to present testimony and exhibits from both sides, not just Seselj's. I don't want to see only that Joe Schmoe from SRS has testified about what a great family guy Sveti Vojislav is, when meanwhile, some poor Muslim widow from Bijeljina has testified that Seselj's boys tortured and murdered her husband and son's while Seselj himself looked on and barked orders.
pre 12 godina
I think the Hague is a joke clearly anyone with a bit of brain can clearly see that this whole process is set up and illegal. Anyone who tries to tell me otherwas must be dumb i sudgest go and view trial again. Seselj is inocant and man with unbelivable strenght.
pre 12 godina
The only kool aid drinkers, and there are plenty of them, are the brainwashed ignorant masses who think that the Hague is a real court. I guess you fall into that category. How can a real court release a monster like Naser Oric? Please answer me that one, as you sip on your kool aid. Ignorance is bliss.
Cheers!!
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 16:50)
Yes, I do believe the ICTY is a real court, but then again I am not a member of the group of people that are considered the major agressors in the Yugoslavian Wars. If you take a poll in any jurisdiction, in any country, or international setting. The people who are receiving convictions and punishments or on the losing side of judgments automatically claim immediately the judges, the court are corrupt, they were bribed, they were prejudicial, its a bum rap etc, etc, etc.
You and others refer to the ICTY as a NATO court, but it has judges from countries all over the world, even China you know the great Serbian friend. It was established by the UNSC, you know the organization that Serbia claims is the only one COMPETENT to establish an investigation into the alleged organ trade. So is the UNSC the right body to establish justice yes or no. It is not yes on Tuesday and no on Wednesday and then yes again Thursday.
Is the ICTY primarily financed with NATO money? It is financed by a UN budget. But like everything else in the UN budget the majority of monies come from the NATO countries.
A more fair system is impossible to establish. But guilt cannot be established as in your eyes based on whether they are Serb or not.
Guilty people are released by every court system in the world daily, sometimes due to lack of evidence, sometimes due to technicalities, sometimes because the judges just do not believe the credibility of witnesses. Also what is written in the press and passed over coffee in coffee shops is not evidence, and cannot be used as such.
You may have a cousin who has a friend who has an uncle that claims this happened. He could testify but you cannot. That is the problem much of the "evidence" in the balkans is simply this.
Now if you have proof that judges are dishonest, or corrupt you should bring it forward but just because you disagree with their decisions, that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
pre 12 godina
There is no mention of this article being used as evidence at trial. You know and I know he was probably involved in the atrocities, but the prosecution must still prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was. When I talk about evidence, I'm referring to exhibits used in a courtroom. Was this article used? Did Schiller testify under oath to its truthfulness? Did he specifically tell the court that he saw Oric on the tapes? Did he specifically state that no one had paid him to falsify a story? This is standard trial procedure. You talk about all the flaws of the ICTY, yet I see no indication that you have the faintest idea as to how trials work.
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Yep, this is the guy the fake NATO kangaroo court released, despite video evidence. I'm still waiting for your answer on how this could happen in a real court. I suspect I'll be waiting forever because you don't have an answer. And yes, I definitely did obliterate your argument, and take pleasure in doing that.
(Dragan, 22 March 2012 14:37)
I do not disagree that the possibility exists the Oric is guilty and may have been released. However, you cannot convict a person on newspaper articles and pictures that cannot be substantiated as valid. I did not listen to any of Oric's trial, I do not know of any of the evidence presented so yes I have to rely on the fact that the judges did their job. Again what is in papers and on the internet are usually compilations from many sources. The persons taking the pictures are the only people who can authenticate them, were these people available or pulled from files.
As you know many pictures of atrocities in the balkan wars have surface and floated around the internet and then given different sources according to who wants to make a point.
Again I cannot comment on Oric's individual case as I have not followed it. But my question to you what is a better system. How are you going to find unbiased judges. You base your opinion on HOW could they let theis person go? The best source of this information is to review the case files in their entirety.
But you say the judges nominated by their host nations and voted on by the UNGA are handpicked, I am looking for evidence to back that up.
You present evidence from the press, after claims that the evidence presented by the press for the war was manipulated, and exaggerated. What is the difference in your press notes and theirs?
These are the tasks judges must sort out. A thousand Serbs somewhere else especially in a foreign country are not proof something happened. One of more Serbs present willing to testify and their testimony being collaborated is.
But you still have not anwered my question as to what is a better system, and why is the same exact scenario the one being presented by Serbs as the only possible solution for the Organ havesting allegations?
To the person who drew the similarities in my screen name and Jim Jones, I had never noticed it, I will have to rewatch a documentary on him, it has been sometime. But in actuality the phrase came from when I paid off my mortgage to my home, it was finaced through acompany called New Day, and I said this is a New Day in my life. Corny I know but I liked it.
pre 12 godina
anyone who supports seselj is as demented as he is. and deserves life imprisonment. or better yet, institutionalization on a psych ward.
pre 12 godina
Dragan there are probably 1000 times more postings on the internet showing Seseljs involvement with gruesome pictures and speeches than that of Oric but you still claim there is no evidence against him. How do you explain that.
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He sounds to me like he has the arrogance of someone who really thinks that he has a right to rid the world of those that are inferior to himself (clarification: those who he believes is inferior to himself). He sounds like he is a danger to society and even if there was a shread of a chance he was not guilty or would be found not guilty, he still should never be allowed the opportunity to roam free in a civilized society.
pre 12 godina
Saint Vojislav. The founder of the cult of the rusty spoon. A real saint. Together with Saint Željko Ražnatović a well deserved hero!
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Remarkable strength of ideas and stamina, presenting his views and beliefs to the very end
If he would be an Indian or South-African "freedom fighter" he would probably qualify for the Nobel Prize. Whatever the verdict - and Seselj probably predicted it well, I will never forget his speech, actually his attitude and bravery to present it. Like from the best history stories that were telling us how once upon the time some people were able to trade everything for the idea, for the clean face and respect and therefore, indirectly, for their Nation.
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Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 14:54)
# Comment link
Don't know if you know who Jim Jones was in the 70's but he had many devout followers too that beleived everything he said. When he went on about his superiority they believed him, when he talked about the secret CIA and govt persecutions they believed him. They believed everything he said was true right up until he convinced them to drink the poison kool aid. I think Jones and Seselj suffer from some of the same delusions, believe him if you want but be wary of the kool aid!
pre 12 godina
slight point of information. The term "kangaroo" court comes from the idea of "jumping over" defendant rights in order to have a SPEEDY trial. Seems the court is giving pretty wide berth to Seselj and his many antics and certainly not depriving him of any rights, including much free medical attention.
While some may have reasons to question the legitimacy of the ITCY, it's certainly no "kangaroo" court.
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Dragan there are probably 1000 times more postings on the internet showing Seseljs involvement with gruesome pictures and speeches than that of Oric but you still claim there is no evidence against him. How do you explain that.
pre 12 godina
Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 14:54)
I doubt he convinced one person of that. See you already thought it was true so you did not need convincing. If you think a wall is painted yellow, it does not take much to convince you it is painted yellow.
pre 12 godina
Seselj is a great man.
He showed the prosecution defeat.
Check his final statement from last week and this week.
Now it's up to the judge to decide.
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He is more deserving of a Nobel than anyone that has received it so far. (ZZ, 21 March 2012 13:44)
With comments like this , how can anyone possibly question the utter narrow stupid ignorance being exibited by the hyper-nationalists.
If have seen some pretty dumb comments from all sides on this site - but this one , without question , must be the dumbest of them all.
pre 12 godina
How is this ""You cannot beat me because I am morally and intellectually superior."" worthy of a nobel prize?
He is arrogant and boastful. I think the Hague is a joke and should be found guilty of keeping him in prison for so long but let's not go overboard and claim his arrogant boastful speech as anything to aspire to. It mentions nothing for the betterment of mankind or peace.
pre 12 godina
He is more deserving of a Nobel than anyone that has received it so far. The tribunal is a sham and he stood up to it. He's been subjected to trumped up charges and he's stood up to them. Planted witnesses were fabricated and coached and he exposed them all. He was falsely accused and went to defend himself voluntarily. He was kept out of the Serbian body politic but chose to leave a public and permanent record for all to see and for history to judge. He was drugged and implanted with shoddy medical devices and he forced his body to endure until the end of the trial. It's said the winner gets to write the history books, in this case it was a shoddy and unscrupulous draft. He will probably die soon as his mission has neared it's end. All the rats can then celebrate before scurrying back into their holes, all the while never knowing the meaning of truth and dignity.
pre 12 godina
Seselj, much as I abhor what he stands for, is right. The Hague Tribunal has turned this semi-psychotic ranter into a real victim of misadministered justice disgracing the Western world. As he says, he presents no real threat to anyone, and should be released forthwith.
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I think Jones and Seselj suffer from some of the same delusions, believe him if you want but be wary of the kool aid!
(a New Day, 21 March 2012 16:22)
The only kool aid drinkers, and there are plenty of them, are the brainwashed ignorant masses who think that the Hague is a real court. I guess you fall into that category. How can a real court release a monster like Naser Oric? Please answer me that one, as you sip on your kool aid. Ignorance is bliss.
Cheers!!
pre 12 godina
I don't think any educated Serb older than 25 years of age can consider this man as anything more than an idiot. He is a fool. First of all the Hague court was set up by the UN security council, not NATO, and the US does not even recognize its authority. The UN security council UNANIMOUSLY voted in favor of the the ICTY so we can thank Russia and China for their support there, go ahead, look it up, Russia voted in favor of this supposed NATO court. Does that make any sense? No, uneducated farm boys with internet access don't know the difference between the ICC, ICJ, UN, UNSC, and NATO so they just call it all NATO... idiots. The legal jurisdiction of the court is open to debate but that is not what is being debated here. How can anyone respect an idiot like Seselj? He sits in court, and uses profanity that a prostitute would be embarrassed to hear! He is the face and voice of our political elite? Talking about oral sex and eating human feces, this is an educated man?? This is someone people vote for? I don't support the Hague, I don't want a pro-EU pro-NATO BG government but I can not believe that this foul-mouthed senile fool is someone people would defend and support.
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New Day,
I certainly admire you for trying, but nothing ever gets through to the hard-liners. It's kind of like when US liberals and moderates try to get their conservative counterparts (many of which constitute the infamous Tea Party) to understand the wisdom behind universal healthcare, ending silly tax cuts, dealing with global warming (we're in the midst of yet another round of record- breaking temperatures on the East Coast), etc. NOTHING gets through.
pre 12 godina
Well, actually, no judgement on the war crimes indictments has been rendered yet, so at this point, you're only stating an opinion (not that your opinion would change if he were convicted, because I don't think there's any way you would ever view him as guilty). He has, however, been convicted twice of contempt, with a third ruling pending, I believe. I'm sure you'll argue that there, too, he's innocent, but I would once again request that you show evidence to support your position. Protected identities are protected identities. When you're told to keep names confidential, you shouldn't make them public. Seems fairly elementary to me.
As someone has already pointed out to you, all you have in your comments is opinion. Well, everyone has one of those, but opinions are worthless without evidence to back them up, wouldn't you agree? People like you and Zoran are always going on about NATO this, America that...but where can you conclusively show that, for instance, NATO started the war in the Balkans? Your answer is always something like, "well the evidence to prove that is carefully buried and will never see the light of day", but that's really not enough. The Hague can at least produce witnesses, wire taps and documents, but you -- all you have is a story that most of the world doesn't take seriously.
pre 12 godina
anyone who supports seselj is as demented as he is. and deserves life imprisonment. or better yet, institutionalization on a psych ward.
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OK, well at least you've conjured up something from the ICTY website, so that's a step in the right direction. When you provide backup such as this, I can start to take you a bit more seriously. I would need to look at much more than Morillion's testimony, though, but in any event, this is the Oric case, and the commentary was originally about Seselj.
So, back to Seselj. Think you can go and dig up enough evidence from court to prove your argument that he's completely innocent? And keep in mind, you need to present testimony and exhibits from both sides, not just Seselj's. I don't want to see only that Joe Schmoe from SRS has testified about what a great family guy Sveti Vojislav is, when meanwhile, some poor Muslim widow from Bijeljina has testified that Seselj's boys tortured and murdered her husband and son's while Seselj himself looked on and barked orders.
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To Kujon:
Nobel Prize is just a metaphor, although we could argue much about what contribution some made to get it, and from whose perspective, their nation's or external? But, Seselj's behavior and the strength of his beliefs and ideas, the sacrifice he was ready to make, allows him a bit of arrogance and boasting, especially as it seems like he was using that as one of the rare weapons he had at hand.
For me, and I am not a radical - not even a Serb, his stands made him equal to the heroes like William Wallace or Janosik, or Taras Bulba or Istok or Tito (allegedly) and many others (hoping that you know about at least one of them). At least, he definitely stands alone and above any other of the politicians that I had ever listened to (excluding the written material like e.g. about Peko Dapcevic that had similar passion to defend and suffer for his ideas).
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the hague to good for him he sould go hell....
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Mr. New day, thanks for that long diatribe, but after all that blather you failed to address my question. How can the Hague release a monster like Oric, who bragged about mutilating Serbian civilians to western reporters, and even showed them video footage of this? The answer is very simple, it's a fake court, and the well paid judges are carefully selected to cooperate with the show trials. Do you need links? I've got plenty so just say the word.
In one very short paragraph I just obliterated your argument. Keep trying though, it's very amusing watching people bend over backwards trying to deny truth and logic.
Cheers!!!
(Dragan, 22 March 2012 12:42)
You did not obliterate anything, you seem to have the same problems Seselj has that if you sound offensive enough you have won a debate. You more proved my point, those on a losing side will always claim a court is corrupt. I would be interested in links that were not more Serbian prop blogs, that showed the corruption of these judges. Opinion pieces are not evidence though.
I have given you facts you gave me ---nothing!
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Yep, this is the guy the fake NATO kangaroo court released, despite video evidence. I'm still waiting for your answer on how this could happen in a real court. I suspect I'll be waiting forever because you don't have an answer. And yes, I definitely did obliterate your argument, and take pleasure in doing that.
(Dragan, 22 March 2012 14:37)
I do not disagree that the possibility exists the Oric is guilty and may have been released. However, you cannot convict a person on newspaper articles and pictures that cannot be substantiated as valid. I did not listen to any of Oric's trial, I do not know of any of the evidence presented so yes I have to rely on the fact that the judges did their job. Again what is in papers and on the internet are usually compilations from many sources. The persons taking the pictures are the only people who can authenticate them, were these people available or pulled from files.
As you know many pictures of atrocities in the balkan wars have surface and floated around the internet and then given different sources according to who wants to make a point.
Again I cannot comment on Oric's individual case as I have not followed it. But my question to you what is a better system. How are you going to find unbiased judges. You base your opinion on HOW could they let theis person go? The best source of this information is to review the case files in their entirety.
But you say the judges nominated by their host nations and voted on by the UNGA are handpicked, I am looking for evidence to back that up.
You present evidence from the press, after claims that the evidence presented by the press for the war was manipulated, and exaggerated. What is the difference in your press notes and theirs?
These are the tasks judges must sort out. A thousand Serbs somewhere else especially in a foreign country are not proof something happened. One of more Serbs present willing to testify and their testimony being collaborated is.
But you still have not anwered my question as to what is a better system, and why is the same exact scenario the one being presented by Serbs as the only possible solution for the Organ havesting allegations?
To the person who drew the similarities in my screen name and Jim Jones, I had never noticed it, I will have to rewatch a documentary on him, it has been sometime. But in actuality the phrase came from when I paid off my mortgage to my home, it was finaced through acompany called New Day, and I said this is a New Day in my life. Corny I know but I liked it.
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Danilo
Where exactly, if any, did you receive your post secondary school certificate, degree and or diploma?
By the way Danilo, I recommend you read the following definition of
"Kangaroo Court"
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=kangaroo%20court&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKangaroo_court&ei=jilqT97hGsz4ggeL4-2jCQ&usg=AFQjCNF9GD-TZpo6mmr4D2DiYyt8nsV0Xg
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The only kool aid drinkers, and there are plenty of them, are the brainwashed ignorant masses who think that the Hague is a real court. I guess you fall into that category. How can a real court release a monster like Naser Oric? Please answer me that one, as you sip on your kool aid. Ignorance is bliss.
Cheers!!
(Dragan, 21 March 2012 16:50)
Yes, I do believe the ICTY is a real court, but then again I am not a member of the group of people that are considered the major agressors in the Yugoslavian Wars. If you take a poll in any jurisdiction, in any country, or international setting. The people who are receiving convictions and punishments or on the losing side of judgments automatically claim immediately the judges, the court are corrupt, they were bribed, they were prejudicial, its a bum rap etc, etc, etc.
You and others refer to the ICTY as a NATO court, but it has judges from countries all over the world, even China you know the great Serbian friend. It was established by the UNSC, you know the organization that Serbia claims is the only one COMPETENT to establish an investigation into the alleged organ trade. So is the UNSC the right body to establish justice yes or no. It is not yes on Tuesday and no on Wednesday and then yes again Thursday.
Is the ICTY primarily financed with NATO money? It is financed by a UN budget. But like everything else in the UN budget the majority of monies come from the NATO countries.
A more fair system is impossible to establish. But guilt cannot be established as in your eyes based on whether they are Serb or not.
Guilty people are released by every court system in the world daily, sometimes due to lack of evidence, sometimes due to technicalities, sometimes because the judges just do not believe the credibility of witnesses. Also what is written in the press and passed over coffee in coffee shops is not evidence, and cannot be used as such.
You may have a cousin who has a friend who has an uncle that claims this happened. He could testify but you cannot. That is the problem much of the "evidence" in the balkans is simply this.
Now if you have proof that judges are dishonest, or corrupt you should bring it forward but just because you disagree with their decisions, that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
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Dragan,
To complete the body of evidence supporting your position on Oric, can you also produce the findings of the ICTY with respect to such samples as the ones you have given? Because as unnecessary as it may seem, due process is a critical component of any fair trial. The court must be able to establish beyond reasonable doubt the veracity of such claims as (1) Oric actually ordered/carried out those crimes himself, and wasn't just claiming responsibility for someone else's crimes as a scare tactic and (2) this journalist is telling the truth about what he witnessed. I understand that to someone like you, there should hardly be any need to check the facts. But to a judge from a country like Korea or Mexico, it is standard procedure. Also, the exhibits need to be tendered very carefully in order to ensure that evidence can't be disallowed on the basis of some kind of technicality, no matter how outrageous that technicality may seem. Recall that OJ Simpson was "acquitted" of double-murder in 1995, even though hardly anyone who knew anything about the case actually believed him to be innocent. You'd be very hard-pressed to find a single Serb (or Muslim, for that matter) who doesn't believe that Oric committed war crimes, but those crimes have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. I'm pretty sure that you would assert that any failure to do so is the result of bias at the ICTY, which might be true, but you have to be able to demonstrate that. Otherwise, you're no more credible than the institution you're blaming.
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Alideda and ZZ - well said.
If there was ever any doubt that the Hague is a complete sham, an anti-Serb political kangaroo court, a show trial, created and run by NATO war criminals, well there is no doubt any more thanks to Dr. Seselj.
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Not sure that's the best link, ACS. Score in the battle of Canadian Serbs: Danilo 1, ACS 0.
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Some interesting facts about this "NATO" court, as so many of you like to refer to it.
1. Established by the UNSC.
2. Judges are elected by the UNGA.
3. Budget is derived from UN funds.
4. Of the 17 permanent judges listed on the official website 8 are from NATO member countries 9 are from non NATO countries.
5. Of the 9 "ad litem" judges listed 4 are from NATO member states, 5 are from non NATO member states
6. Of the 5 lead prosecutors listed 2 are from NATO member states, 3 are from non NATO member states.
All this is verifiable from the official website.
Now my questions to all of you are:
1. What more fair system could be established?
2. How can you argue this system is unjust but insist that the same people responsible for establishing and mandating the ICTY are the ONLY ones able to create a system for the alleged organ harvesting claims?
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The real heading is: Seselj finished- argument closed. You reap what you sow.
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Do you mean like the "yellow"painted house in N. Albania, where the KLA removed kidneys from kidnapped, innocent Serbs and other minorities? Yes, I believe that.
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There is no mention of this article being used as evidence at trial. You know and I know he was probably involved in the atrocities, but the prosecution must still prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was. When I talk about evidence, I'm referring to exhibits used in a courtroom. Was this article used? Did Schiller testify under oath to its truthfulness? Did he specifically tell the court that he saw Oric on the tapes? Did he specifically state that no one had paid him to falsify a story? This is standard trial procedure. You talk about all the flaws of the ICTY, yet I see no indication that you have the faintest idea as to how trials work.
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You asked for it:
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/oric.htm
'I met him in January, 1994, in his own home in Serb-surrounded Srebrenica.
On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric's Greatest Hits.
There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing.
Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork.
"We ambushed them," he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen.
The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: "We launched those guys to the moon," he boasted.
When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: "We killed 114 Serbs there."
Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.'
Bill Schiller, a reporter from the Toronto Star, is not a Serb, and this was from his article. So this guy, Oric, the guy who grinned while proudly showing severed heads on video, is the guy that the court that you claim is real and legitimate, released. Despite more blather from you, you still have not answered my question. How can a real court release this war criminal?
Here is some more of Oric's handiwork for you:
http://4international.me/2008/02/15/the-real-srebrenica-genocide-the-mass-murder-of-serbs-in-srebrenica-and-gorazde/
Yep, this is the guy the fake NATO kangaroo court released, despite video evidence. I'm still waiting for your answer on how this could happen in a real court. I suspect I'll be waiting forever because you don't have an answer. And yes, I definitely did obliterate your argument, and take pleasure in doing that.
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You'd be very hard-pressed to find a single Serb (or Muslim, for that matter) who doesn't believe that Oric committed war crimes, but those crimes have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. (Nenad, 22 March 2012 15:38)
Oh really? So if that is the case, then what basis do they have to accuse Seselj and keep him locked up for 9 years (and counting), since the only thing he is guilty of is free speech and thumbing his nose at the west? Seselj never even fired a shot at anyone, let alone took part in alleged attrocities, which Naser Oric boasted about and showed on video footage proudly. Your double standards are humorous and pathetic. Try again, this time use your brain.
Cheers!!
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anyone who supports seselj is as demented as he is. and deserves life imprisonment. or better yet, institutionalization on a psych ward.
(Bob, 23 March 2012 14:45)
Life imprisonment for simply supporting a cause? That's called Nazism Bob. Thanks for revealing yourself
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Mr. New day, thanks for that long diatribe, but after all that blather you failed to address my question. How can the Hague release a monster like Oric, who bragged about mutilating Serbian civilians to western reporters, and even showed them video footage of this? The answer is very simple, it's a fake court, and the well paid judges are carefully selected to cooperate with the show trials. Do you need links? I've got plenty so just say the word.
In one very short paragraph I just obliterated your argument. Keep trying though, it's very amusing watching people bend over backwards trying to deny truth and logic.
Cheers!!!
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As someone has already pointed out to you, all you have in your comments is opinion. Well, everyone has one of those, but opinions are worthless without evidence to back them up, wouldn't you agree?
(Nenad, 22 March 2012 20:06)
Read what I wrote below, I've given you evidence. Read it again reeeeaaal sloooowwww if you must. In fact, when it comes to Naser Oric, there is video evidence, and countless witnesses to what he and his troops did. The evidence, in fact, is so overwhelming that you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to know that the man is guilty and a disgusting war criminal.
Wake up and use your brain for a change sunshine.
Cheers!!
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For those picky on words and definitions, the trial and the court itself are more falling under the definition of the "Show-Trial". Although, the leaps and lapses of logic presented by the prosecution can justify the additional usage of the term "kangaroo court" , in one of its etymological meanings.
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Is it a coincidence that the person who found the link between this subject and the notorious Jim Jones, took a pseudonym of "a New Day" - part of the sentence that Jim Jones often repeated throughout his speeches?
Interesting logical deduction, like
Police officers are paid by the government,
Police officers have good salaries,
Police officers serve to protect order, catch criminals, etc.
During recruitment of the police officers, candidates are passing tests and other verifications to determine the "right profile",
There is even a mechanism to control the work of the police officers, etc
Therefore, police officers are fair, honest, they do not take bribes, do not kill, etc.
Right? No, unfortunately wrong! You have to follow much more complex path to be able to make such a statement, and again only without generalizations.
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I can't even find any evidence that Bill Schiller testified at the Hague, which is just more proof that these are show trials. Why was he not allowed to testify? Did Madeline Albright make a phone call, pull her strings, and ordered him not to come, did he have death threats not to testify...? Did he testify and they simply ignored his evidence. They obviously ignored French General Philippe Morillon:
'Philippe Morillon clearly stated the name of the Bosnian Muslim commander Naser Oric who was known for being sadistic. On February 12 in 2004 at The Hague Tribunal Philippe Morillon testified that Bosnian Muslim forces under Naser Oric “engaged in attacks during Orthodox (Christian) holidays and destroyed villages, massacring all the inhabitants. This created a degree of hatred that was quite extraordinary in the region.”'
http://leejaywalker.wordpress.com/tag/naser-oric-is-a-war-criminal/
Morillon also testified:
'Asked by the ICTY prosecutor how Oric treated his Serb prisoners, General Morillon, who knew him well, replied that “Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in his area and over the population itself. I think that he realized that these were the rules of this horrific war, that he could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn’t even look for an excuse. It was simply a statement: One can’t be bothered with prisoners.” [7]'
http://theglobalrealm.com/2011/06/03/ratko-mladic-arrest-the-uses-and-hypocrisy-of-u-n-genocide/
Yet somehow, yes 'somehow', Oric was released. If the public knew the truth, they would know that Oric was the CAUSE of Srebrenica, and the real genocide occured in the Serbian villages around Srebrenica.
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=660
Now you Hague and NATO apologists know the truth. Wise people will write books about what a sham the Hague was, and are in fact already doing it, it will be the shame and black mark on NATO hypocrisy. Thank God that the US of A is going bankrupt, with leaders like Albright, Clark, Holbrooke, Clinton...who are all war criminals, they deserve it.
Cheers!!
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I think the Hague is a joke clearly anyone with a bit of brain can clearly see that this whole process is set up and illegal. Anyone who tries to tell me otherwas must be dumb i sudgest go and view trial again. Seselj is inocant and man with unbelivable strenght.
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