Wednesday, 14.03.2012.
09:09
Serb Radical Party (SRS) leader Vojislav Šešelj said at the beginning of his closing argument that the Hague Tribunal did not act in the interest of justice.
Izvor: Šagolj Damir
IMAGE SOURCE
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Greetings from the Czech Republic.
Šešelj is the true Serbian hero, you should be proud of him.
http://www.vseselj.com/files/books/TheIdeologyofSerbianNationalism.pdf
http://www.vseselj.com/files/books/Rimokatolicki-na-engleskom.pdf
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I see Zoran. So something kind of like: [link]
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 18:27)
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LOL Danilo, I am talking about Truth and Reconciliation, not justice (particularly the selective type). Since we are on this topic, are you familiar with the foundations of this NATO court? It wasn't funded by the UN initially but rather some shady organisations through Madeline Halfbright. Even Carla Del Ponte confirmed political interference in this so-called court.
It is a complete joke my friend and formed during a time when Russia was on its knees while China really only cared about its internal affairs. Now in a multipolar world, I have a little more trust in the UN. I would even move the organ snatching investigation to it but we are getting resistance from the usual culprits.
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Sometimes, you're forced to go with your next best option.
(Nenad, 15 March 2012 16:59)
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So the "next best option" from the west was not to put itself under the microscope or any of its partners in crime but only those that resisted its hegemony? That is the essence of it right?
Now that is the reason why so many Serbians are fighting for the truth. That is not justice my friend, that is called bullying. Since the bullies did not take the opportunity to reconcile the people, the cycle will repeat again and again until the divisions are removed.
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"No Danilo, one established through the UN would be a good start "
I see Zoran. So something kind of like: http://www.icty.org/sections/AbouttheICTY
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So basically, the answer is a truth commission that is in complete harmony with your personal views.
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 16:56)
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No Danilo, one established through the UN would be a good start with a truly international presence.
I think that both Serbia and Croatia would be willing, however, getting the Bosnian Muslims, Slovenians and Albanians (who have much to hide) would be difficult. Now getting the West (US, Germany, UK and the Vatican) would be near impossible.
The "great powers" have their agenda and truth or reconciliation is not a part of it.
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And that's the problem, Zoran.
Do you seriously think that people could agree on who would run such a thing?
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 15:03)
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Not really, the problem is whether the West is prepared to reveal its involvement in the conflicts. If it did, the locals would stop hating each other and know who the real culprits are.
I have to agree with Dragan on this one, the West will not willingly release this information. They would prefer to create their own version of a "Truth and Reconciliation" commission, which gives them the power to hide their own involvement. At the end of the day it still remains very selective.
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Ida, I am aware of the allegations against Muslims regarding provocative shelling and so on, but what kind of a modern army aims artillery directly at a city teeming with civilians? The Romanija Corps were utterly insane for doing that. Just asking for trouble. Let us remember, too, that many Serbs chose to remain in Muslim parts of Sarajevo, and so were targeted by their own people.
SPC UK, I most certainly wasn't insulting your intelligence, but rather questioning your experience. Two very different things. As a man of nearly 40, I ought to know. As for evidence to support my positions, I could direct you to dozens of books, some by Serbian writers who provide valuable insight to the Serbian war machine of the 90s. As a British Serb, you might have even heard of one: Milos Stankovic. His is a fairly balanced account of the war in Bosnia. You'll find some pretty unflattering accounts of Mladic and Karadzic there. Or you could simply spend some time reading through the many transcripts on the ICTY website, particularly those relating to Serbs' testimony against their fellow Serbs. Just the other day, I encouraged zboy or some such Cetnik to check out the transcripts of Slobodan Lazarevic in the Milosevic trial. Go ahead, see for yourself. I think the dates were around autumn 2002.
Zoran, the problem with a T&R is that really heinous people never go to prison. Sometimes, really heinous people are let off for other reasons, too, but that's the world for you. Selective justice is a cold hard reality and someone like Milosevic would have done well to tread carefully. He stuck two fingers up at the wrong guys. I'd be willing to bet that if the ANC actually believed they had the power to throw all that Afrikaaner scum in jail, they'd have done so. Sometimes, you're forced to go with your next best option.
Dragan, call me brainwashed, but I'd take the media available to me (especially in the 90s) over that available to people in the Balkans anyday. Speaking from personal experience, one simply cannot compare. Unbelievable how people subjected to some of the worst BS and propaganda known to mankind can actually accuse others of lacking in objective sources.
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So basically, the answer is a truth commission that is in complete harmony with your personal views.
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And that's the problem, Zoran.
Do you seriously think that people could agree on who would run such a thing?
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That initiative is called RECOM
(Danilo, 14 March 2012 23:54)
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LOL! Get real Danilo. This is sponsored by the same people that formed Otpor. NED, Nataša Kandić and all of the selective justice supporters. The "great powers" are not stupid and they will hijack any initiative that threatens their power. Lets not forget that the West was deeply involved in the breakup of the former YU. Are their actions going to be scrutinised? Somehow I don't think so. Check -> http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/central-and-eastern-europe/southern-tier-regional
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The Albanians can have all that up to the point that Serbs have the final say. That is not what South Africa has.
(a New Day, 15 March 2012 00:45)
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You missed the point completely. It is about establishing what happened in the former YU and that by revealing the truth, there are no consequences. This is what builds reconciliation. "Justice" in the system that we know, promotes cover-ups, lies and keeps divisions wide.
This is not about who ends up with in power, it is about finding the truth and allowing the people to reconcile through it. I believe that the average person, be they Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian Muslim, Albanian or whatever is prepared for this. However, as mentioned, the "great powers" and their puppets are more interested in having huge egos and keeping their crimes a secret. They are more interested in manipulating information and spinning facts to suit their agenda.
Please stick to the topic.
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There are a few insurmountable problems with a Truth and Reconciliation Process for the former Yugoslavia, as far as the American led NATO are concerned.
America and others do not want People to know that the Truth that they are Guilty, and they know that there are Groups who hate the innocent, and could never reconcile themselves to wishing anything good upon the innocent, even if they were three times more innocent than they already were.
It makes more sense for America to look after their own Interests, and to have the guilty pronounced innocent, and the innocent pronounced guilty, and that way even the Serbs might one day end up joining NATO.
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Conspiracy theories galore in here. Serbs are always victims, its never their fault for anything. Its always the CIA, Germany, the Vatican, the Albanians and Heaven knows who else. But Serbs? No, they are perpetual victims of an unjust world. When I read posts here, I wonder if I should enroll in university again, because apparently, everything that I have learned is a lie. The truth emanates from Srbia's side, who of course have zero logic, zero proof to support their outlandish claims that they were victims of some sort of project carried out by the CIA to break up the glorious nation of Yugoslavia. Apparently Sesjel is a known hippy who was only spreading flowers and love songs and initiating peace campaigns throughout Bosnia and Croatia during the wars. Well guess what people, the Hague is mostly filled with Serbs. History books, teach millions around the world of the horrors of Srebrenica, the shelling of Sarajevo and the mass expulsion of Kosovo's population. You carry on believing in myth though, its your way to deal with the shame your people are responsible for
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Truch and Reconciliation is pretty much impossible because the truth is on the Serbs' side. The truth is what the Germany and the NATO war criminals are most afraid of, and have been suppressing it for years. They don't want the world to know that the Racak massacre, Breadline Massacre, and Markale massacre were all staged hoaxes. They don't want the world to know that muslims in Sarajevo were shelling and sniping at Serbs from hospitals, schools, hotels, and broke almost every cease fire (General Lewis Mackenzie confirmed all this). They don't want the world to know that Fikret Abdic fought along side the Serbs against Izetbegovic. They don't want the world to know that Mostar was completely destroyed by Croats and muslims, so destroyed that it made Sarajevo look like Le Louvre. They don't want the world to know that Croats were financed from emigre Ustase in Australia, Canada, US, Argentina who were planning war and genocide against the indigenous Serbian population for years - and have now been rewarded twice for their genocidal actions in WWII and in 1995. They don't want you to know that US contractors trained Croat fascists who were responsible for unspeakable war crimes all through Krajina (such as Medak Pocket and Operation Storm), and that this very same Croatia was protected by Germany and pushed into the EU because they share German values....They don't want you to know that Osama Bin Laden was active in both Bosnia and Kosovo, helping the NATO war criminals.
I could go on and on, but you get the gist here. I would ignore Nenad, he's delusional and brainwashed.
(Dragan, 15 March 2012 00:03)
Dragan, a lot of good points, but these are alrady known. Perhaps not as publicised as they could be, but known facts.
What this case refers to is the orchestrating of the violence in Croatia and Bosnia in 91 and 92 by the likes of Milosevic, Seselj, Karadzic etc.
The Serbs were sold down the river by these power mad, bloodthirsty fools and tipped public opinion in favour of the neo-nazi Tudjman and Islamic schemer Izetbegovic.
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@Nenad
It just goes to show because the fact that you choose to insult my intelligence on the basis that I am a student somewhat shows that you have such little argument. Why is it not possible that a well read student such as myself cannot possibly know anything? You continue to show no decent theories against Seselj, rather just slate all nationalists as you say, enlighten us as to why you are correct, and why you think that justice can come out of the Hague, please, it baffles me.
As for Seselj, I am not a fan of the man really, rather I am watching his closing statements and drawing the conclusion that he is defending himself extremely well, whilst always contradicting the prosecution. Had a Croat or Muslim defended himself in a similar manner I would too applaud them, but that has not been seen nor has such a strong defense been seen by any other Serbs at the Hague.
Like I said you have a bitter hate towards patriotic Serbs, I have no idea why, maybe you come from a family of former commies or something, but you take it out of people here without a decent argument, I've come across you types before. Once again I am showing admiration to Seselj not because I absolutely love the man, nor on the basis that you claimed that he must be innocent because he is a Serb, rather due to a very strong defense. Anyway I dont know what makes you such an expert of law, unless you are a qualified lawyer then I apologise, but I suspect not and would advise you to get off your high horse.
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If we were to nitpick, which some often do; then all Human Beings, would be shown that the words they spoke were less than perfect, and we would all be guilty of being Human.
People know that partial justice is selective justice, and if it this selective prosecuting was done to deliberately find the guilty innocent and the innocent guilty, then it would not be any type of justice, but an injustice, both because the guilty have been pronounced, and the innocent have been pronounced guilty.
There could be People who would overlook such details and even lie, if they were someone’s Puppets who are receiving Bribes to mislead other People.
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LOL Nenad, I think you still have sand in your ears. I have no particular liking for Seselj but he has exposed this NATO court for the farce that it is. For that I thank him.
(Zoran, 14 March 2012 21:19)
He only "exposed" that to the people who believed it already. I doubt he convinced one other person of that. If you believe a wall is painted yellow, it does not take much to convince you that the wall is painted yellow.
Similar to the Organ harvesting allegations, to those of you who are already convinced they are true, all a person has to say is "I have evidence" you do not ask what that evidence is nor need proof it exists.
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Nenad, I thought you had your head out of the sand there for a second. Now I realise your head is still stuck.
It is quite simple, you are a selective justice supporter and you have already admitted that. If you were a truth and reconciliation supporter and this was actually achieved then all of your questions would be answered. However, as mentioned, there are powerful nations that simply will not reveal the truth. You see, truth and reconciliation works against their agenda (which I have to say is fuelled by ego) and if you follow events in the world, that should be fairly obvious.
So I have to ask, who is feeding your brain? Where do you get your information from? Would it benefit those sources if this information was manipulated to suit their interests? So my advice is to stop wasting your energy on nationalists and to start seeking the truth. It is obvious you've heard all about the Serbians, now go and find out about the Croatians, Bosnian Muslims, Albanians, Americans, Germans, the British and even the Vatican.
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"Who in NATO convinced the Serbs to shell Sarajevo?"
The Muslims had their own and much larger army/forces shelling from and in Sarajevo. They shelled at the Serb-held sections of Sarajevo, which included suburbs of Sarajevo. The city was divided and the front lines were close to the infamous Holiday Inn within the city.
UN staff did witness Muslims provoking attacks - starting the firing on Serbs at 6 a.m. every morning for a spell, according to a New Zealand officer (I read the transcripts), and that they also used portable mortars to "shoot and scoot".
French Marines, in June 1995, traced some annoying sniping to Muslims using the former Parliamentary building and UN officers testified that Muslim forces did use and operate in buildings along "Sniper's Alley".
Nebojsa Malic, contributor to Antiwar.com was a Serb who lived in the Muslim-controlled part of Sarajevo and he claimed that the Serb-controlled parts of Sarajevo ended up more damaged than the Muslim sections.
Muslims also controlled the high-ground within the city and had forces on Mount Igman.
UN testified that Serbs were shelling back a legitimate military targets, such as the Muslim forces on Mount Igman, and that most of the damage was along the front lines, where the two forces met, and the front lines (do some research and check out a map of them) snaked through the city.
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if any one in this whole entire world is a war criminal then it has to be first of all The USA .... And the Vatican ... Bill Clinton . Bush the dumbest president of all of Americas history ... and last but not least the Hague Tribunal its a joke of a court ... Mr Seselj Demolished all of the witnesses and there creditability . JOKE JOKE OF A COURT .. Seselj is smarter then the whole entire court put together. LET the men go home to his family and never open that stupid court again.
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Zorane,
Truch and Reconciliation is pretty much impossible because the truth is on the Serbs' side. The truth is what the Germany and the NATO war criminals are most afraid of, and have been suppressing it for years. They don't want the world to know that the Racak massacre, Breadline Massacre, and Markale massacre were all staged hoaxes. They don't want the world to know that muslims in Sarajevo were shelling and sniping at Serbs from hospitals, schools, hotels, and broke almost every cease fire (General Lewis Mackenzie confirmed all this). They don't want the world to know that Fikret Abdic fought along side the Serbs against Izetbegovic. They don't want the world to know that Mostar was completely destroyed by Croats and muslims, so destroyed that it made Sarajevo look like Le Louvre. They don't want the world to know that Croats were financed from emigre Ustase in Australia, Canada, US, Argentina who were planning war and genocide against the indigenous Serbian population for years - and have now been rewarded twice for their genocidal actions in WWII and in 1995. They don't want you to know that US contractors trained Croat fascists who were responsible for unspeakable war crimes all through Krajina (such as Medak Pocket and Operation Storm), and that this very same Croatia was protected by Germany and pushed into the EU because they share German values....They don't want you to know that Osama Bin Laden was active in both Bosnia and Kosovo, helping the NATO war criminals.
I could go on and on, but you get the gist here. I would ignore Nenad, he's delusional and brainwashed.
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Zoran, 14 March 2012 22:53)
You do realize that in South Africa the whites controlled everything, now the opposition actually controls the govt. Is this what you are really proposing for Yugoslavia, that Serbs become just another political faction and not the controlling govt. That Albanians have all the rights, freedoms, and power that Serbs do? If that was actually the proposal at any given point in time the west would have supported and probably and huge portion of the Albanians. while you have some Albanians that dream of a pure state just like some Serbs dream of a pure state, the majority just wanted the same rights and freedoms.
But in reality I am sure you are like most and still want to hold onto the trum card. The Albanians can have all that up to the point that Serbs have the final say. That is not what South Africa has.
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Zoran
That initiative is called RECOM
http://zarekom.org/
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Zoran, one last thing and I'll shut up, because as usual, we're not getting anywhere, and I have so many arguments going with nationalists at the moment that I'm starting to lose track of who said what.
You've made the claim that NATO is using the ICTY, at least in part, to scapegoat Serbs for the 90s wars. OK, give me some details here. Which Germans/Brits/Americans approached Tudjman and Kucan to encourage them to leave? When did the secret meetings take place? What was said? Tell me all about the master plan to break up Yugoslavia into pliable little pieces for Berlin, London and Washington -- I'd be really interested to know the specifics. Because up to now, I've only heard about stuff like the secret contacts between Belgrade and Knin dating back to summer 1989, or the Karadjordjevo meeting between Sloba and Franjo in March 1991, or the diplomatic warning issued to Belgrade by Washington around Christmas 1992 for the military preparations underway in Kosovo. Sure, there's a lot of b.s. out there, but if only 10% of the allegations against Serbs were true, there'd still be a ton of culpability.
Suppose you tell us a little about how someone like Momcilo Perisic should never have been convicted, or General Galic in Sarajevo? Who in NATO convinced the Serbs to shell Sarajevo?
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What would you propose as a viable alternative?
(Nenad, 14 March 2012 22:10)
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That's easy, Truth and Reconciliation. Similarly to what was done in South Africa. I have a lot of respect for someone like Nelson Mandela and I have been calling for this option for quite some time.
Do you think that blaming Serbia and pointing the finger at Serbians is going to reconcile our people while allowing Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Thaci, Oric and others to get away with their crimes because their partners are powerful? You see, it is an ego game and selective justice will only keep the divisions wide. Are you blind? Look at the conversations here - all people do is point fingers. The NATO court has been a complete failure and waste of resources.
Truth and reconciliation is the only option. However, there are powerful nations where this option simply does not fit in with their agenda. I'm sure you know who they are.
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Zoran, if you think NATO's ego is bruised over failure of the ICTY to bring lasting peace and reconciliation to the Balkans, you're sorely mistaken. NATO has far bigger matters to concern itself with at present. And while I somewhat agree that the ICTY hasn't done much to close the gap between enemies, I would certainly find it difficult to imagine Muslims being more apt to forgive Serbs if guys like Mladic and Karadzic weren't standing trial. Tell me, how would Belgrade trials look for those two? OK, you despise the ICTY. What would you propose as a viable alternative? And I know, you probably can't stand to see someone like Seselj on trial while George Bush and Bill Clinton walk free, but personally, I don't think some war criminals should get off just because others aren't being tried. I'll be the first to admit the world isn't just, but I'm still happy when men like Milosevic, Karadzic and Seselj stand trial. At least they're being called to answer for the crimes for which they stand accused. Partial justice is better than no justice at all.
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Why should I believe you when you've been badly hurt in this fight (I'm of course referring to NATO intervention and influence), and only have stories to back up you claims?
(Nenad, 14 March 2012 17:29)
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LOL Nenad, I think you still have sand in your ears. I have no particular liking for Seselj but he has exposed this NATO court for the farce that it is. For that I thank him.
My post was to do with accusations by some claiming that he purposely delayed this case. Now, if that were true, he would be calling defense witnesses but since he is not, that theory goes down the drain. In fact, it took nine years for the prosecution to finish their case. And look, shortly after getting out of hospital, he again is back in court defending himself.
Now as for who got badly hurt in all of this, it must be those who set this court up, so they can blames Serbians for the mess they created. Their ego was too big to admit they were even partially responsible for the mess they created in the former YU. Fortunately, it has backfired and practically no Serb respects this NATO court. They wasted billions and kept the divisions wide between the people that once lived relatively peacefully together.
If they truly wanted peace in the region then they would have promoted peace and reconciliation a long time ago. However, since we are dealing with selective justice, their agenda is fairly clear. They are only attempting to protect their injured ego.
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Most comments seem to avoid the cardinal point. Is Seselj materially responsible for the terrible things he is accused of? If not, is the Hague Court likely to view the matter from a purely legal perspective, or is it likely to want to save face?
I put it to you that this trial is totally different from the ones against Karadzic' and Mladic' who undoubtedly have a case to answer.
Unfortunately International tribunals seem to find it difficult not to obey their polical masters, when there is a strong element of doubt, as was crystal clear in the trumped up case against the supposed Libyan bomber of the flight over Lockerbie.
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SPC UK,
What I have a problem with is a bunch of people who proclaim people like Seselj innocent just because he's a Serb. Everyone on here talks about lack of evidence but they see only what they wish to see. And what makes you such an astute judge that you can so quickly declare his closing argument bullet proof? You're a still at university, are you not? If you were a lawyer or judge with years of experience, I might choose to entertain your opinion.
All you ardent nationalists just believe everything you're told by people like Seselj and Karadzic...their version of events just never seem to get challenged. Never mind that thousands of events have transpired over the past 20-odd years to contradict their stories, including Milosevic's ouster at the hands of his own people. Oh, but you'll claim that millions of Serbs were tricked by the CIA into revolting against an innocent leader. Give me a break.
It just blows my mind that people like you continue to defend someone like Seselj, who represents everything that is wrong with the Serb nation -- whether guilty of these particular charges or not. And tell me, what do you have to show for it? Kosovo? Krajina? A bunch of Serbian "heros" walking around free?
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I wonder what all those theorists, blaming Seselj for the delay, and with their head buried in the sand will say about this?
(Zoran, 14 March 2012 09:31)
That the day of judgement is finally coming and he is out of magic tricks in his bag, is probably what most will say.
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I forgot: Zoran, please also tell us average recovery time for this procedure for someone who meets Seselj's profile. The surgery was performed last Friday, so it has been five days, not the "couple" that Vuk claims. If a few days would be sufficient and doctors declare him fit for trial, as his own attorney, he must stand up and speak. If someone else were representing him (what we would expect from someone who is actually sane), he could at least sit back with a smug grin and just listen.
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@Nenad
Due to your attitude towards Seselj in your various comments it seems that you simply don't like Seselj for his politics and therefore wish to see him go down, but not because there is any evidence against him. So much for law and order. I have been watching all of todays proceedings and I challenge anyone here to give as strong a defense as he is doing today, it makes the prosecution look pathetic and the intricate detail in which he talks about the events of the war make it clear he knows what he is talking about. But then again the Hague tribunal doesn't really have any regard for true law and order, so unfortunately it will probably count for nothing.
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Zoran, since you and many others seem to think that pacemakers should be installed (in Western countries, at least) with a margin for error of virtually zero, please do the rest of us a favor and retrieve the fallibility statistics for this particular procedure when performed in Holland (as opposed to some other Western country). Then, we'd really like you to break down all of the risk factors for a man who meets Seselj's basic profile: age, nationality, average lifestyle for man of his nationality, life circumstances over the past couple of decades (war, prison, self- defense at trial with grave charges), known family history (eg, cholesterol levels) and so on. Pretend you're at work,giving the board of directors at your firm a big presentation on why your line of business is failing to meet its targets for the year. What do you think they'll want to hear? A bunch of ideas wholly unsupported by facts and statistics? Or would they rather see a deck showing sound data to back up your claims? Sorry to be so patronizing, but then again, you're accusing me of having my head in the sand, when all I'm trying to do is figure out what's true. Why should I believe you when you've been badly hurt in this fight (I'm of course referring to NATO intervention and influence), and only have stories to back up you claims?
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Unfortunately your both off the point.
He had an emergency operation as his defibrillator didnt work. Its totally different to a healthy person having the procedure.
He has been forced to go to the trail after only a couple of days of rest. That is the fact of the matter and is appauling by anyones standards. This court is an absolute joke that is plain to see for anyone even if you don't like Seselj's politics this is not how to conduct a trail.
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Zoran, a friend of mine had a defibrilator implanted on Tuesday and was on the floor danse on Saturday. Medicine makes miracles today. I am sure that Dr Seselj knows this too...
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Wow, straight out of hospital and he still intends to give his closing statements? I mean, that pretty much slaps everyone in the face who claims this man is the reason for an unbelievably long trial.
If he wanted to delay it, he would be resting now for as long as possible. He would be calling defence witnesses and further delaying the process for as long as possible. However, what we are seeing is a man who has just underwent heart surgery and prepared to end this political trial immediately. What a farce this NATO court has turned out to be.
I wonder what all those theorists, blaming Seselj for the delay, and with their head buried in the sand will say about this?
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Wow, straight out of hospital and he still intends to give his closing statements? I mean, that pretty much slaps everyone in the face who claims this man is the reason for an unbelievably long trial.
If he wanted to delay it, he would be resting now for as long as possible. He would be calling defence witnesses and further delaying the process for as long as possible. However, what we are seeing is a man who has just underwent heart surgery and prepared to end this political trial immediately. What a farce this NATO court has turned out to be.
I wonder what all those theorists, blaming Seselj for the delay, and with their head buried in the sand will say about this?
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Unfortunately your both off the point.
He had an emergency operation as his defibrillator didnt work. Its totally different to a healthy person having the procedure.
He has been forced to go to the trail after only a couple of days of rest. That is the fact of the matter and is appauling by anyones standards. This court is an absolute joke that is plain to see for anyone even if you don't like Seselj's politics this is not how to conduct a trail.
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@Nenad
Due to your attitude towards Seselj in your various comments it seems that you simply don't like Seselj for his politics and therefore wish to see him go down, but not because there is any evidence against him. So much for law and order. I have been watching all of todays proceedings and I challenge anyone here to give as strong a defense as he is doing today, it makes the prosecution look pathetic and the intricate detail in which he talks about the events of the war make it clear he knows what he is talking about. But then again the Hague tribunal doesn't really have any regard for true law and order, so unfortunately it will probably count for nothing.
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SPC UK,
What I have a problem with is a bunch of people who proclaim people like Seselj innocent just because he's a Serb. Everyone on here talks about lack of evidence but they see only what they wish to see. And what makes you such an astute judge that you can so quickly declare his closing argument bullet proof? You're a still at university, are you not? If you were a lawyer or judge with years of experience, I might choose to entertain your opinion.
All you ardent nationalists just believe everything you're told by people like Seselj and Karadzic...their version of events just never seem to get challenged. Never mind that thousands of events have transpired over the past 20-odd years to contradict their stories, including Milosevic's ouster at the hands of his own people. Oh, but you'll claim that millions of Serbs were tricked by the CIA into revolting against an innocent leader. Give me a break.
It just blows my mind that people like you continue to defend someone like Seselj, who represents everything that is wrong with the Serb nation -- whether guilty of these particular charges or not. And tell me, what do you have to show for it? Kosovo? Krajina? A bunch of Serbian "heros" walking around free?
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Why should I believe you when you've been badly hurt in this fight (I'm of course referring to NATO intervention and influence), and only have stories to back up you claims?
(Nenad, 14 March 2012 17:29)
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LOL Nenad, I think you still have sand in your ears. I have no particular liking for Seselj but he has exposed this NATO court for the farce that it is. For that I thank him.
My post was to do with accusations by some claiming that he purposely delayed this case. Now, if that were true, he would be calling defense witnesses but since he is not, that theory goes down the drain. In fact, it took nine years for the prosecution to finish their case. And look, shortly after getting out of hospital, he again is back in court defending himself.
Now as for who got badly hurt in all of this, it must be those who set this court up, so they can blames Serbians for the mess they created. Their ego was too big to admit they were even partially responsible for the mess they created in the former YU. Fortunately, it has backfired and practically no Serb respects this NATO court. They wasted billions and kept the divisions wide between the people that once lived relatively peacefully together.
If they truly wanted peace in the region then they would have promoted peace and reconciliation a long time ago. However, since we are dealing with selective justice, their agenda is fairly clear. They are only attempting to protect their injured ego.
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Zoran, if you think NATO's ego is bruised over failure of the ICTY to bring lasting peace and reconciliation to the Balkans, you're sorely mistaken. NATO has far bigger matters to concern itself with at present. And while I somewhat agree that the ICTY hasn't done much to close the gap between enemies, I would certainly find it difficult to imagine Muslims being more apt to forgive Serbs if guys like Mladic and Karadzic weren't standing trial. Tell me, how would Belgrade trials look for those two? OK, you despise the ICTY. What would you propose as a viable alternative? And I know, you probably can't stand to see someone like Seselj on trial while George Bush and Bill Clinton walk free, but personally, I don't think some war criminals should get off just because others aren't being tried. I'll be the first to admit the world isn't just, but I'm still happy when men like Milosevic, Karadzic and Seselj stand trial. At least they're being called to answer for the crimes for which they stand accused. Partial justice is better than no justice at all.
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Zoran, a friend of mine had a defibrilator implanted on Tuesday and was on the floor danse on Saturday. Medicine makes miracles today. I am sure that Dr Seselj knows this too...
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Zoran, since you and many others seem to think that pacemakers should be installed (in Western countries, at least) with a margin for error of virtually zero, please do the rest of us a favor and retrieve the fallibility statistics for this particular procedure when performed in Holland (as opposed to some other Western country). Then, we'd really like you to break down all of the risk factors for a man who meets Seselj's basic profile: age, nationality, average lifestyle for man of his nationality, life circumstances over the past couple of decades (war, prison, self- defense at trial with grave charges), known family history (eg, cholesterol levels) and so on. Pretend you're at work,giving the board of directors at your firm a big presentation on why your line of business is failing to meet its targets for the year. What do you think they'll want to hear? A bunch of ideas wholly unsupported by facts and statistics? Or would they rather see a deck showing sound data to back up your claims? Sorry to be so patronizing, but then again, you're accusing me of having my head in the sand, when all I'm trying to do is figure out what's true. Why should I believe you when you've been badly hurt in this fight (I'm of course referring to NATO intervention and influence), and only have stories to back up you claims?
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What would you propose as a viable alternative?
(Nenad, 14 March 2012 22:10)
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That's easy, Truth and Reconciliation. Similarly to what was done in South Africa. I have a lot of respect for someone like Nelson Mandela and I have been calling for this option for quite some time.
Do you think that blaming Serbia and pointing the finger at Serbians is going to reconcile our people while allowing Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Thaci, Oric and others to get away with their crimes because their partners are powerful? You see, it is an ego game and selective justice will only keep the divisions wide. Are you blind? Look at the conversations here - all people do is point fingers. The NATO court has been a complete failure and waste of resources.
Truth and reconciliation is the only option. However, there are powerful nations where this option simply does not fit in with their agenda. I'm sure you know who they are.
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Zoran, one last thing and I'll shut up, because as usual, we're not getting anywhere, and I have so many arguments going with nationalists at the moment that I'm starting to lose track of who said what.
You've made the claim that NATO is using the ICTY, at least in part, to scapegoat Serbs for the 90s wars. OK, give me some details here. Which Germans/Brits/Americans approached Tudjman and Kucan to encourage them to leave? When did the secret meetings take place? What was said? Tell me all about the master plan to break up Yugoslavia into pliable little pieces for Berlin, London and Washington -- I'd be really interested to know the specifics. Because up to now, I've only heard about stuff like the secret contacts between Belgrade and Knin dating back to summer 1989, or the Karadjordjevo meeting between Sloba and Franjo in March 1991, or the diplomatic warning issued to Belgrade by Washington around Christmas 1992 for the military preparations underway in Kosovo. Sure, there's a lot of b.s. out there, but if only 10% of the allegations against Serbs were true, there'd still be a ton of culpability.
Suppose you tell us a little about how someone like Momcilo Perisic should never have been convicted, or General Galic in Sarajevo? Who in NATO convinced the Serbs to shell Sarajevo?
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Zorane,
Truch and Reconciliation is pretty much impossible because the truth is on the Serbs' side. The truth is what the Germany and the NATO war criminals are most afraid of, and have been suppressing it for years. They don't want the world to know that the Racak massacre, Breadline Massacre, and Markale massacre were all staged hoaxes. They don't want the world to know that muslims in Sarajevo were shelling and sniping at Serbs from hospitals, schools, hotels, and broke almost every cease fire (General Lewis Mackenzie confirmed all this). They don't want the world to know that Fikret Abdic fought along side the Serbs against Izetbegovic. They don't want the world to know that Mostar was completely destroyed by Croats and muslims, so destroyed that it made Sarajevo look like Le Louvre. They don't want the world to know that Croats were financed from emigre Ustase in Australia, Canada, US, Argentina who were planning war and genocide against the indigenous Serbian population for years - and have now been rewarded twice for their genocidal actions in WWII and in 1995. They don't want you to know that US contractors trained Croat fascists who were responsible for unspeakable war crimes all through Krajina (such as Medak Pocket and Operation Storm), and that this very same Croatia was protected by Germany and pushed into the EU because they share German values....They don't want you to know that Osama Bin Laden was active in both Bosnia and Kosovo, helping the NATO war criminals.
I could go on and on, but you get the gist here. I would ignore Nenad, he's delusional and brainwashed.
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Conspiracy theories galore in here. Serbs are always victims, its never their fault for anything. Its always the CIA, Germany, the Vatican, the Albanians and Heaven knows who else. But Serbs? No, they are perpetual victims of an unjust world. When I read posts here, I wonder if I should enroll in university again, because apparently, everything that I have learned is a lie. The truth emanates from Srbia's side, who of course have zero logic, zero proof to support their outlandish claims that they were victims of some sort of project carried out by the CIA to break up the glorious nation of Yugoslavia. Apparently Sesjel is a known hippy who was only spreading flowers and love songs and initiating peace campaigns throughout Bosnia and Croatia during the wars. Well guess what people, the Hague is mostly filled with Serbs. History books, teach millions around the world of the horrors of Srebrenica, the shelling of Sarajevo and the mass expulsion of Kosovo's population. You carry on believing in myth though, its your way to deal with the shame your people are responsible for
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Most comments seem to avoid the cardinal point. Is Seselj materially responsible for the terrible things he is accused of? If not, is the Hague Court likely to view the matter from a purely legal perspective, or is it likely to want to save face?
I put it to you that this trial is totally different from the ones against Karadzic' and Mladic' who undoubtedly have a case to answer.
Unfortunately International tribunals seem to find it difficult not to obey their polical masters, when there is a strong element of doubt, as was crystal clear in the trumped up case against the supposed Libyan bomber of the flight over Lockerbie.
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So basically, the answer is a truth commission that is in complete harmony with your personal views.
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Ida, I am aware of the allegations against Muslims regarding provocative shelling and so on, but what kind of a modern army aims artillery directly at a city teeming with civilians? The Romanija Corps were utterly insane for doing that. Just asking for trouble. Let us remember, too, that many Serbs chose to remain in Muslim parts of Sarajevo, and so were targeted by their own people.
SPC UK, I most certainly wasn't insulting your intelligence, but rather questioning your experience. Two very different things. As a man of nearly 40, I ought to know. As for evidence to support my positions, I could direct you to dozens of books, some by Serbian writers who provide valuable insight to the Serbian war machine of the 90s. As a British Serb, you might have even heard of one: Milos Stankovic. His is a fairly balanced account of the war in Bosnia. You'll find some pretty unflattering accounts of Mladic and Karadzic there. Or you could simply spend some time reading through the many transcripts on the ICTY website, particularly those relating to Serbs' testimony against their fellow Serbs. Just the other day, I encouraged zboy or some such Cetnik to check out the transcripts of Slobodan Lazarevic in the Milosevic trial. Go ahead, see for yourself. I think the dates were around autumn 2002.
Zoran, the problem with a T&R is that really heinous people never go to prison. Sometimes, really heinous people are let off for other reasons, too, but that's the world for you. Selective justice is a cold hard reality and someone like Milosevic would have done well to tread carefully. He stuck two fingers up at the wrong guys. I'd be willing to bet that if the ANC actually believed they had the power to throw all that Afrikaaner scum in jail, they'd have done so. Sometimes, you're forced to go with your next best option.
Dragan, call me brainwashed, but I'd take the media available to me (especially in the 90s) over that available to people in the Balkans anyday. Speaking from personal experience, one simply cannot compare. Unbelievable how people subjected to some of the worst BS and propaganda known to mankind can actually accuse others of lacking in objective sources.
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"No Danilo, one established through the UN would be a good start "
I see Zoran. So something kind of like: http://www.icty.org/sections/AbouttheICTY
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I forgot: Zoran, please also tell us average recovery time for this procedure for someone who meets Seselj's profile. The surgery was performed last Friday, so it has been five days, not the "couple" that Vuk claims. If a few days would be sufficient and doctors declare him fit for trial, as his own attorney, he must stand up and speak. If someone else were representing him (what we would expect from someone who is actually sane), he could at least sit back with a smug grin and just listen.
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I wonder what all those theorists, blaming Seselj for the delay, and with their head buried in the sand will say about this?
(Zoran, 14 March 2012 09:31)
That the day of judgement is finally coming and he is out of magic tricks in his bag, is probably what most will say.
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"Who in NATO convinced the Serbs to shell Sarajevo?"
The Muslims had their own and much larger army/forces shelling from and in Sarajevo. They shelled at the Serb-held sections of Sarajevo, which included suburbs of Sarajevo. The city was divided and the front lines were close to the infamous Holiday Inn within the city.
UN staff did witness Muslims provoking attacks - starting the firing on Serbs at 6 a.m. every morning for a spell, according to a New Zealand officer (I read the transcripts), and that they also used portable mortars to "shoot and scoot".
French Marines, in June 1995, traced some annoying sniping to Muslims using the former Parliamentary building and UN officers testified that Muslim forces did use and operate in buildings along "Sniper's Alley".
Nebojsa Malic, contributor to Antiwar.com was a Serb who lived in the Muslim-controlled part of Sarajevo and he claimed that the Serb-controlled parts of Sarajevo ended up more damaged than the Muslim sections.
Muslims also controlled the high-ground within the city and had forces on Mount Igman.
UN testified that Serbs were shelling back a legitimate military targets, such as the Muslim forces on Mount Igman, and that most of the damage was along the front lines, where the two forces met, and the front lines (do some research and check out a map of them) snaked through the city.
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Nenad, I thought you had your head out of the sand there for a second. Now I realise your head is still stuck.
It is quite simple, you are a selective justice supporter and you have already admitted that. If you were a truth and reconciliation supporter and this was actually achieved then all of your questions would be answered. However, as mentioned, there are powerful nations that simply will not reveal the truth. You see, truth and reconciliation works against their agenda (which I have to say is fuelled by ego) and if you follow events in the world, that should be fairly obvious.
So I have to ask, who is feeding your brain? Where do you get your information from? Would it benefit those sources if this information was manipulated to suit their interests? So my advice is to stop wasting your energy on nationalists and to start seeking the truth. It is obvious you've heard all about the Serbians, now go and find out about the Croatians, Bosnian Muslims, Albanians, Americans, Germans, the British and even the Vatican.
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There are a few insurmountable problems with a Truth and Reconciliation Process for the former Yugoslavia, as far as the American led NATO are concerned.
America and others do not want People to know that the Truth that they are Guilty, and they know that there are Groups who hate the innocent, and could never reconcile themselves to wishing anything good upon the innocent, even if they were three times more innocent than they already were.
It makes more sense for America to look after their own Interests, and to have the guilty pronounced innocent, and the innocent pronounced guilty, and that way even the Serbs might one day end up joining NATO.
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That initiative is called RECOM
(Danilo, 14 March 2012 23:54)
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LOL! Get real Danilo. This is sponsored by the same people that formed Otpor. NED, Nataša Kandić and all of the selective justice supporters. The "great powers" are not stupid and they will hijack any initiative that threatens their power. Lets not forget that the West was deeply involved in the breakup of the former YU. Are their actions going to be scrutinised? Somehow I don't think so. Check -> http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/central-and-eastern-europe/southern-tier-regional
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I see Zoran. So something kind of like: [link]
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 18:27)
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LOL Danilo, I am talking about Truth and Reconciliation, not justice (particularly the selective type). Since we are on this topic, are you familiar with the foundations of this NATO court? It wasn't funded by the UN initially but rather some shady organisations through Madeline Halfbright. Even Carla Del Ponte confirmed political interference in this so-called court.
It is a complete joke my friend and formed during a time when Russia was on its knees while China really only cared about its internal affairs. Now in a multipolar world, I have a little more trust in the UN. I would even move the organ snatching investigation to it but we are getting resistance from the usual culprits.
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if any one in this whole entire world is a war criminal then it has to be first of all The USA .... And the Vatican ... Bill Clinton . Bush the dumbest president of all of Americas history ... and last but not least the Hague Tribunal its a joke of a court ... Mr Seselj Demolished all of the witnesses and there creditability . JOKE JOKE OF A COURT .. Seselj is smarter then the whole entire court put together. LET the men go home to his family and never open that stupid court again.
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@Nenad
It just goes to show because the fact that you choose to insult my intelligence on the basis that I am a student somewhat shows that you have such little argument. Why is it not possible that a well read student such as myself cannot possibly know anything? You continue to show no decent theories against Seselj, rather just slate all nationalists as you say, enlighten us as to why you are correct, and why you think that justice can come out of the Hague, please, it baffles me.
As for Seselj, I am not a fan of the man really, rather I am watching his closing statements and drawing the conclusion that he is defending himself extremely well, whilst always contradicting the prosecution. Had a Croat or Muslim defended himself in a similar manner I would too applaud them, but that has not been seen nor has such a strong defense been seen by any other Serbs at the Hague.
Like I said you have a bitter hate towards patriotic Serbs, I have no idea why, maybe you come from a family of former commies or something, but you take it out of people here without a decent argument, I've come across you types before. Once again I am showing admiration to Seselj not because I absolutely love the man, nor on the basis that you claimed that he must be innocent because he is a Serb, rather due to a very strong defense. Anyway I dont know what makes you such an expert of law, unless you are a qualified lawyer then I apologise, but I suspect not and would advise you to get off your high horse.
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The Albanians can have all that up to the point that Serbs have the final say. That is not what South Africa has.
(a New Day, 15 March 2012 00:45)
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You missed the point completely. It is about establishing what happened in the former YU and that by revealing the truth, there are no consequences. This is what builds reconciliation. "Justice" in the system that we know, promotes cover-ups, lies and keeps divisions wide.
This is not about who ends up with in power, it is about finding the truth and allowing the people to reconcile through it. I believe that the average person, be they Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian Muslim, Albanian or whatever is prepared for this. However, as mentioned, the "great powers" and their puppets are more interested in having huge egos and keeping their crimes a secret. They are more interested in manipulating information and spinning facts to suit their agenda.
Please stick to the topic.
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And that's the problem, Zoran.
Do you seriously think that people could agree on who would run such a thing?
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Sometimes, you're forced to go with your next best option.
(Nenad, 15 March 2012 16:59)
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So the "next best option" from the west was not to put itself under the microscope or any of its partners in crime but only those that resisted its hegemony? That is the essence of it right?
Now that is the reason why so many Serbians are fighting for the truth. That is not justice my friend, that is called bullying. Since the bullies did not take the opportunity to reconcile the people, the cycle will repeat again and again until the divisions are removed.
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Zoran
That initiative is called RECOM
http://zarekom.org/
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Zoran, 14 March 2012 22:53)
You do realize that in South Africa the whites controlled everything, now the opposition actually controls the govt. Is this what you are really proposing for Yugoslavia, that Serbs become just another political faction and not the controlling govt. That Albanians have all the rights, freedoms, and power that Serbs do? If that was actually the proposal at any given point in time the west would have supported and probably and huge portion of the Albanians. while you have some Albanians that dream of a pure state just like some Serbs dream of a pure state, the majority just wanted the same rights and freedoms.
But in reality I am sure you are like most and still want to hold onto the trum card. The Albanians can have all that up to the point that Serbs have the final say. That is not what South Africa has.
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LOL Nenad, I think you still have sand in your ears. I have no particular liking for Seselj but he has exposed this NATO court for the farce that it is. For that I thank him.
(Zoran, 14 March 2012 21:19)
He only "exposed" that to the people who believed it already. I doubt he convinced one other person of that. If you believe a wall is painted yellow, it does not take much to convince you that the wall is painted yellow.
Similar to the Organ harvesting allegations, to those of you who are already convinced they are true, all a person has to say is "I have evidence" you do not ask what that evidence is nor need proof it exists.
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If we were to nitpick, which some often do; then all Human Beings, would be shown that the words they spoke were less than perfect, and we would all be guilty of being Human.
People know that partial justice is selective justice, and if it this selective prosecuting was done to deliberately find the guilty innocent and the innocent guilty, then it would not be any type of justice, but an injustice, both because the guilty have been pronounced, and the innocent have been pronounced guilty.
There could be People who would overlook such details and even lie, if they were someone’s Puppets who are receiving Bribes to mislead other People.
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Truch and Reconciliation is pretty much impossible because the truth is on the Serbs' side. The truth is what the Germany and the NATO war criminals are most afraid of, and have been suppressing it for years. They don't want the world to know that the Racak massacre, Breadline Massacre, and Markale massacre were all staged hoaxes. They don't want the world to know that muslims in Sarajevo were shelling and sniping at Serbs from hospitals, schools, hotels, and broke almost every cease fire (General Lewis Mackenzie confirmed all this). They don't want the world to know that Fikret Abdic fought along side the Serbs against Izetbegovic. They don't want the world to know that Mostar was completely destroyed by Croats and muslims, so destroyed that it made Sarajevo look like Le Louvre. They don't want the world to know that Croats were financed from emigre Ustase in Australia, Canada, US, Argentina who were planning war and genocide against the indigenous Serbian population for years - and have now been rewarded twice for their genocidal actions in WWII and in 1995. They don't want you to know that US contractors trained Croat fascists who were responsible for unspeakable war crimes all through Krajina (such as Medak Pocket and Operation Storm), and that this very same Croatia was protected by Germany and pushed into the EU because they share German values....They don't want you to know that Osama Bin Laden was active in both Bosnia and Kosovo, helping the NATO war criminals.
I could go on and on, but you get the gist here. I would ignore Nenad, he's delusional and brainwashed.
(Dragan, 15 March 2012 00:03)
Dragan, a lot of good points, but these are alrady known. Perhaps not as publicised as they could be, but known facts.
What this case refers to is the orchestrating of the violence in Croatia and Bosnia in 91 and 92 by the likes of Milosevic, Seselj, Karadzic etc.
The Serbs were sold down the river by these power mad, bloodthirsty fools and tipped public opinion in favour of the neo-nazi Tudjman and Islamic schemer Izetbegovic.
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And that's the problem, Zoran.
Do you seriously think that people could agree on who would run such a thing?
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 15:03)
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Not really, the problem is whether the West is prepared to reveal its involvement in the conflicts. If it did, the locals would stop hating each other and know who the real culprits are.
I have to agree with Dragan on this one, the West will not willingly release this information. They would prefer to create their own version of a "Truth and Reconciliation" commission, which gives them the power to hide their own involvement. At the end of the day it still remains very selective.
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So basically, the answer is a truth commission that is in complete harmony with your personal views.
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 16:56)
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No Danilo, one established through the UN would be a good start with a truly international presence.
I think that both Serbia and Croatia would be willing, however, getting the Bosnian Muslims, Slovenians and Albanians (who have much to hide) would be difficult. Now getting the West (US, Germany, UK and the Vatican) would be near impossible.
The "great powers" have their agenda and truth or reconciliation is not a part of it.
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Greetings from the Czech Republic.
Šešelj is the true Serbian hero, you should be proud of him.
http://www.vseselj.com/files/books/TheIdeologyofSerbianNationalism.pdf
http://www.vseselj.com/files/books/Rimokatolicki-na-engleskom.pdf
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Zoran, since you and many others seem to think that pacemakers should be installed (in Western countries, at least) with a margin for error of virtually zero, please do the rest of us a favor and retrieve the fallibility statistics for this particular procedure when performed in Holland (as opposed to some other Western country). Then, we'd really like you to break down all of the risk factors for a man who meets Seselj's basic profile: age, nationality, average lifestyle for man of his nationality, life circumstances over the past couple of decades (war, prison, self- defense at trial with grave charges), known family history (eg, cholesterol levels) and so on. Pretend you're at work,giving the board of directors at your firm a big presentation on why your line of business is failing to meet its targets for the year. What do you think they'll want to hear? A bunch of ideas wholly unsupported by facts and statistics? Or would they rather see a deck showing sound data to back up your claims? Sorry to be so patronizing, but then again, you're accusing me of having my head in the sand, when all I'm trying to do is figure out what's true. Why should I believe you when you've been badly hurt in this fight (I'm of course referring to NATO intervention and influence), and only have stories to back up you claims?
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Wow, straight out of hospital and he still intends to give his closing statements? I mean, that pretty much slaps everyone in the face who claims this man is the reason for an unbelievably long trial.
If he wanted to delay it, he would be resting now for as long as possible. He would be calling defence witnesses and further delaying the process for as long as possible. However, what we are seeing is a man who has just underwent heart surgery and prepared to end this political trial immediately. What a farce this NATO court has turned out to be.
I wonder what all those theorists, blaming Seselj for the delay, and with their head buried in the sand will say about this?
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SPC UK,
What I have a problem with is a bunch of people who proclaim people like Seselj innocent just because he's a Serb. Everyone on here talks about lack of evidence but they see only what they wish to see. And what makes you such an astute judge that you can so quickly declare his closing argument bullet proof? You're a still at university, are you not? If you were a lawyer or judge with years of experience, I might choose to entertain your opinion.
All you ardent nationalists just believe everything you're told by people like Seselj and Karadzic...their version of events just never seem to get challenged. Never mind that thousands of events have transpired over the past 20-odd years to contradict their stories, including Milosevic's ouster at the hands of his own people. Oh, but you'll claim that millions of Serbs were tricked by the CIA into revolting against an innocent leader. Give me a break.
It just blows my mind that people like you continue to defend someone like Seselj, who represents everything that is wrong with the Serb nation -- whether guilty of these particular charges or not. And tell me, what do you have to show for it? Kosovo? Krajina? A bunch of Serbian "heros" walking around free?
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@Nenad
Due to your attitude towards Seselj in your various comments it seems that you simply don't like Seselj for his politics and therefore wish to see him go down, but not because there is any evidence against him. So much for law and order. I have been watching all of todays proceedings and I challenge anyone here to give as strong a defense as he is doing today, it makes the prosecution look pathetic and the intricate detail in which he talks about the events of the war make it clear he knows what he is talking about. But then again the Hague tribunal doesn't really have any regard for true law and order, so unfortunately it will probably count for nothing.
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I forgot: Zoran, please also tell us average recovery time for this procedure for someone who meets Seselj's profile. The surgery was performed last Friday, so it has been five days, not the "couple" that Vuk claims. If a few days would be sufficient and doctors declare him fit for trial, as his own attorney, he must stand up and speak. If someone else were representing him (what we would expect from someone who is actually sane), he could at least sit back with a smug grin and just listen.
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I wonder what all those theorists, blaming Seselj for the delay, and with their head buried in the sand will say about this?
(Zoran, 14 March 2012 09:31)
That the day of judgement is finally coming and he is out of magic tricks in his bag, is probably what most will say.
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Zoran, a friend of mine had a defibrilator implanted on Tuesday and was on the floor danse on Saturday. Medicine makes miracles today. I am sure that Dr Seselj knows this too...
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Conspiracy theories galore in here. Serbs are always victims, its never their fault for anything. Its always the CIA, Germany, the Vatican, the Albanians and Heaven knows who else. But Serbs? No, they are perpetual victims of an unjust world. When I read posts here, I wonder if I should enroll in university again, because apparently, everything that I have learned is a lie. The truth emanates from Srbia's side, who of course have zero logic, zero proof to support their outlandish claims that they were victims of some sort of project carried out by the CIA to break up the glorious nation of Yugoslavia. Apparently Sesjel is a known hippy who was only spreading flowers and love songs and initiating peace campaigns throughout Bosnia and Croatia during the wars. Well guess what people, the Hague is mostly filled with Serbs. History books, teach millions around the world of the horrors of Srebrenica, the shelling of Sarajevo and the mass expulsion of Kosovo's population. You carry on believing in myth though, its your way to deal with the shame your people are responsible for
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Zoran, if you think NATO's ego is bruised over failure of the ICTY to bring lasting peace and reconciliation to the Balkans, you're sorely mistaken. NATO has far bigger matters to concern itself with at present. And while I somewhat agree that the ICTY hasn't done much to close the gap between enemies, I would certainly find it difficult to imagine Muslims being more apt to forgive Serbs if guys like Mladic and Karadzic weren't standing trial. Tell me, how would Belgrade trials look for those two? OK, you despise the ICTY. What would you propose as a viable alternative? And I know, you probably can't stand to see someone like Seselj on trial while George Bush and Bill Clinton walk free, but personally, I don't think some war criminals should get off just because others aren't being tried. I'll be the first to admit the world isn't just, but I'm still happy when men like Milosevic, Karadzic and Seselj stand trial. At least they're being called to answer for the crimes for which they stand accused. Partial justice is better than no justice at all.
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Unfortunately your both off the point.
He had an emergency operation as his defibrillator didnt work. Its totally different to a healthy person having the procedure.
He has been forced to go to the trail after only a couple of days of rest. That is the fact of the matter and is appauling by anyones standards. This court is an absolute joke that is plain to see for anyone even if you don't like Seselj's politics this is not how to conduct a trail.
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Most comments seem to avoid the cardinal point. Is Seselj materially responsible for the terrible things he is accused of? If not, is the Hague Court likely to view the matter from a purely legal perspective, or is it likely to want to save face?
I put it to you that this trial is totally different from the ones against Karadzic' and Mladic' who undoubtedly have a case to answer.
Unfortunately International tribunals seem to find it difficult not to obey their polical masters, when there is a strong element of doubt, as was crystal clear in the trumped up case against the supposed Libyan bomber of the flight over Lockerbie.
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What would you propose as a viable alternative?
(Nenad, 14 March 2012 22:10)
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That's easy, Truth and Reconciliation. Similarly to what was done in South Africa. I have a lot of respect for someone like Nelson Mandela and I have been calling for this option for quite some time.
Do you think that blaming Serbia and pointing the finger at Serbians is going to reconcile our people while allowing Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Thaci, Oric and others to get away with their crimes because their partners are powerful? You see, it is an ego game and selective justice will only keep the divisions wide. Are you blind? Look at the conversations here - all people do is point fingers. The NATO court has been a complete failure and waste of resources.
Truth and reconciliation is the only option. However, there are powerful nations where this option simply does not fit in with their agenda. I'm sure you know who they are.
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Zoran, one last thing and I'll shut up, because as usual, we're not getting anywhere, and I have so many arguments going with nationalists at the moment that I'm starting to lose track of who said what.
You've made the claim that NATO is using the ICTY, at least in part, to scapegoat Serbs for the 90s wars. OK, give me some details here. Which Germans/Brits/Americans approached Tudjman and Kucan to encourage them to leave? When did the secret meetings take place? What was said? Tell me all about the master plan to break up Yugoslavia into pliable little pieces for Berlin, London and Washington -- I'd be really interested to know the specifics. Because up to now, I've only heard about stuff like the secret contacts between Belgrade and Knin dating back to summer 1989, or the Karadjordjevo meeting between Sloba and Franjo in March 1991, or the diplomatic warning issued to Belgrade by Washington around Christmas 1992 for the military preparations underway in Kosovo. Sure, there's a lot of b.s. out there, but if only 10% of the allegations against Serbs were true, there'd still be a ton of culpability.
Suppose you tell us a little about how someone like Momcilo Perisic should never have been convicted, or General Galic in Sarajevo? Who in NATO convinced the Serbs to shell Sarajevo?
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Zorane,
Truch and Reconciliation is pretty much impossible because the truth is on the Serbs' side. The truth is what the Germany and the NATO war criminals are most afraid of, and have been suppressing it for years. They don't want the world to know that the Racak massacre, Breadline Massacre, and Markale massacre were all staged hoaxes. They don't want the world to know that muslims in Sarajevo were shelling and sniping at Serbs from hospitals, schools, hotels, and broke almost every cease fire (General Lewis Mackenzie confirmed all this). They don't want the world to know that Fikret Abdic fought along side the Serbs against Izetbegovic. They don't want the world to know that Mostar was completely destroyed by Croats and muslims, so destroyed that it made Sarajevo look like Le Louvre. They don't want the world to know that Croats were financed from emigre Ustase in Australia, Canada, US, Argentina who were planning war and genocide against the indigenous Serbian population for years - and have now been rewarded twice for their genocidal actions in WWII and in 1995. They don't want you to know that US contractors trained Croat fascists who were responsible for unspeakable war crimes all through Krajina (such as Medak Pocket and Operation Storm), and that this very same Croatia was protected by Germany and pushed into the EU because they share German values....They don't want you to know that Osama Bin Laden was active in both Bosnia and Kosovo, helping the NATO war criminals.
I could go on and on, but you get the gist here. I would ignore Nenad, he's delusional and brainwashed.
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Nenad, I thought you had your head out of the sand there for a second. Now I realise your head is still stuck.
It is quite simple, you are a selective justice supporter and you have already admitted that. If you were a truth and reconciliation supporter and this was actually achieved then all of your questions would be answered. However, as mentioned, there are powerful nations that simply will not reveal the truth. You see, truth and reconciliation works against their agenda (which I have to say is fuelled by ego) and if you follow events in the world, that should be fairly obvious.
So I have to ask, who is feeding your brain? Where do you get your information from? Would it benefit those sources if this information was manipulated to suit their interests? So my advice is to stop wasting your energy on nationalists and to start seeking the truth. It is obvious you've heard all about the Serbians, now go and find out about the Croatians, Bosnian Muslims, Albanians, Americans, Germans, the British and even the Vatican.
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"Who in NATO convinced the Serbs to shell Sarajevo?"
The Muslims had their own and much larger army/forces shelling from and in Sarajevo. They shelled at the Serb-held sections of Sarajevo, which included suburbs of Sarajevo. The city was divided and the front lines were close to the infamous Holiday Inn within the city.
UN staff did witness Muslims provoking attacks - starting the firing on Serbs at 6 a.m. every morning for a spell, according to a New Zealand officer (I read the transcripts), and that they also used portable mortars to "shoot and scoot".
French Marines, in June 1995, traced some annoying sniping to Muslims using the former Parliamentary building and UN officers testified that Muslim forces did use and operate in buildings along "Sniper's Alley".
Nebojsa Malic, contributor to Antiwar.com was a Serb who lived in the Muslim-controlled part of Sarajevo and he claimed that the Serb-controlled parts of Sarajevo ended up more damaged than the Muslim sections.
Muslims also controlled the high-ground within the city and had forces on Mount Igman.
UN testified that Serbs were shelling back a legitimate military targets, such as the Muslim forces on Mount Igman, and that most of the damage was along the front lines, where the two forces met, and the front lines (do some research and check out a map of them) snaked through the city.
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@Nenad
It just goes to show because the fact that you choose to insult my intelligence on the basis that I am a student somewhat shows that you have such little argument. Why is it not possible that a well read student such as myself cannot possibly know anything? You continue to show no decent theories against Seselj, rather just slate all nationalists as you say, enlighten us as to why you are correct, and why you think that justice can come out of the Hague, please, it baffles me.
As for Seselj, I am not a fan of the man really, rather I am watching his closing statements and drawing the conclusion that he is defending himself extremely well, whilst always contradicting the prosecution. Had a Croat or Muslim defended himself in a similar manner I would too applaud them, but that has not been seen nor has such a strong defense been seen by any other Serbs at the Hague.
Like I said you have a bitter hate towards patriotic Serbs, I have no idea why, maybe you come from a family of former commies or something, but you take it out of people here without a decent argument, I've come across you types before. Once again I am showing admiration to Seselj not because I absolutely love the man, nor on the basis that you claimed that he must be innocent because he is a Serb, rather due to a very strong defense. Anyway I dont know what makes you such an expert of law, unless you are a qualified lawyer then I apologise, but I suspect not and would advise you to get off your high horse.
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There are a few insurmountable problems with a Truth and Reconciliation Process for the former Yugoslavia, as far as the American led NATO are concerned.
America and others do not want People to know that the Truth that they are Guilty, and they know that there are Groups who hate the innocent, and could never reconcile themselves to wishing anything good upon the innocent, even if they were three times more innocent than they already were.
It makes more sense for America to look after their own Interests, and to have the guilty pronounced innocent, and the innocent pronounced guilty, and that way even the Serbs might one day end up joining NATO.
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That initiative is called RECOM
(Danilo, 14 March 2012 23:54)
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LOL! Get real Danilo. This is sponsored by the same people that formed Otpor. NED, Nataša Kandić and all of the selective justice supporters. The "great powers" are not stupid and they will hijack any initiative that threatens their power. Lets not forget that the West was deeply involved in the breakup of the former YU. Are their actions going to be scrutinised? Somehow I don't think so. Check -> http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/central-and-eastern-europe/southern-tier-regional
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And that's the problem, Zoran.
Do you seriously think that people could agree on who would run such a thing?
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 15:03)
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Not really, the problem is whether the West is prepared to reveal its involvement in the conflicts. If it did, the locals would stop hating each other and know who the real culprits are.
I have to agree with Dragan on this one, the West will not willingly release this information. They would prefer to create their own version of a "Truth and Reconciliation" commission, which gives them the power to hide their own involvement. At the end of the day it still remains very selective.
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Why should I believe you when you've been badly hurt in this fight (I'm of course referring to NATO intervention and influence), and only have stories to back up you claims?
(Nenad, 14 March 2012 17:29)
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LOL Nenad, I think you still have sand in your ears. I have no particular liking for Seselj but he has exposed this NATO court for the farce that it is. For that I thank him.
My post was to do with accusations by some claiming that he purposely delayed this case. Now, if that were true, he would be calling defense witnesses but since he is not, that theory goes down the drain. In fact, it took nine years for the prosecution to finish their case. And look, shortly after getting out of hospital, he again is back in court defending himself.
Now as for who got badly hurt in all of this, it must be those who set this court up, so they can blames Serbians for the mess they created. Their ego was too big to admit they were even partially responsible for the mess they created in the former YU. Fortunately, it has backfired and practically no Serb respects this NATO court. They wasted billions and kept the divisions wide between the people that once lived relatively peacefully together.
If they truly wanted peace in the region then they would have promoted peace and reconciliation a long time ago. However, since we are dealing with selective justice, their agenda is fairly clear. They are only attempting to protect their injured ego.
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LOL Nenad, I think you still have sand in your ears. I have no particular liking for Seselj but he has exposed this NATO court for the farce that it is. For that I thank him.
(Zoran, 14 March 2012 21:19)
He only "exposed" that to the people who believed it already. I doubt he convinced one other person of that. If you believe a wall is painted yellow, it does not take much to convince you that the wall is painted yellow.
Similar to the Organ harvesting allegations, to those of you who are already convinced they are true, all a person has to say is "I have evidence" you do not ask what that evidence is nor need proof it exists.
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If we were to nitpick, which some often do; then all Human Beings, would be shown that the words they spoke were less than perfect, and we would all be guilty of being Human.
People know that partial justice is selective justice, and if it this selective prosecuting was done to deliberately find the guilty innocent and the innocent guilty, then it would not be any type of justice, but an injustice, both because the guilty have been pronounced, and the innocent have been pronounced guilty.
There could be People who would overlook such details and even lie, if they were someone’s Puppets who are receiving Bribes to mislead other People.
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Truch and Reconciliation is pretty much impossible because the truth is on the Serbs' side. The truth is what the Germany and the NATO war criminals are most afraid of, and have been suppressing it for years. They don't want the world to know that the Racak massacre, Breadline Massacre, and Markale massacre were all staged hoaxes. They don't want the world to know that muslims in Sarajevo were shelling and sniping at Serbs from hospitals, schools, hotels, and broke almost every cease fire (General Lewis Mackenzie confirmed all this). They don't want the world to know that Fikret Abdic fought along side the Serbs against Izetbegovic. They don't want the world to know that Mostar was completely destroyed by Croats and muslims, so destroyed that it made Sarajevo look like Le Louvre. They don't want the world to know that Croats were financed from emigre Ustase in Australia, Canada, US, Argentina who were planning war and genocide against the indigenous Serbian population for years - and have now been rewarded twice for their genocidal actions in WWII and in 1995. They don't want you to know that US contractors trained Croat fascists who were responsible for unspeakable war crimes all through Krajina (such as Medak Pocket and Operation Storm), and that this very same Croatia was protected by Germany and pushed into the EU because they share German values....They don't want you to know that Osama Bin Laden was active in both Bosnia and Kosovo, helping the NATO war criminals.
I could go on and on, but you get the gist here. I would ignore Nenad, he's delusional and brainwashed.
(Dragan, 15 March 2012 00:03)
Dragan, a lot of good points, but these are alrady known. Perhaps not as publicised as they could be, but known facts.
What this case refers to is the orchestrating of the violence in Croatia and Bosnia in 91 and 92 by the likes of Milosevic, Seselj, Karadzic etc.
The Serbs were sold down the river by these power mad, bloodthirsty fools and tipped public opinion in favour of the neo-nazi Tudjman and Islamic schemer Izetbegovic.
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The Albanians can have all that up to the point that Serbs have the final say. That is not what South Africa has.
(a New Day, 15 March 2012 00:45)
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You missed the point completely. It is about establishing what happened in the former YU and that by revealing the truth, there are no consequences. This is what builds reconciliation. "Justice" in the system that we know, promotes cover-ups, lies and keeps divisions wide.
This is not about who ends up with in power, it is about finding the truth and allowing the people to reconcile through it. I believe that the average person, be they Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian Muslim, Albanian or whatever is prepared for this. However, as mentioned, the "great powers" and their puppets are more interested in having huge egos and keeping their crimes a secret. They are more interested in manipulating information and spinning facts to suit their agenda.
Please stick to the topic.
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Ida, I am aware of the allegations against Muslims regarding provocative shelling and so on, but what kind of a modern army aims artillery directly at a city teeming with civilians? The Romanija Corps were utterly insane for doing that. Just asking for trouble. Let us remember, too, that many Serbs chose to remain in Muslim parts of Sarajevo, and so were targeted by their own people.
SPC UK, I most certainly wasn't insulting your intelligence, but rather questioning your experience. Two very different things. As a man of nearly 40, I ought to know. As for evidence to support my positions, I could direct you to dozens of books, some by Serbian writers who provide valuable insight to the Serbian war machine of the 90s. As a British Serb, you might have even heard of one: Milos Stankovic. His is a fairly balanced account of the war in Bosnia. You'll find some pretty unflattering accounts of Mladic and Karadzic there. Or you could simply spend some time reading through the many transcripts on the ICTY website, particularly those relating to Serbs' testimony against their fellow Serbs. Just the other day, I encouraged zboy or some such Cetnik to check out the transcripts of Slobodan Lazarevic in the Milosevic trial. Go ahead, see for yourself. I think the dates were around autumn 2002.
Zoran, the problem with a T&R is that really heinous people never go to prison. Sometimes, really heinous people are let off for other reasons, too, but that's the world for you. Selective justice is a cold hard reality and someone like Milosevic would have done well to tread carefully. He stuck two fingers up at the wrong guys. I'd be willing to bet that if the ANC actually believed they had the power to throw all that Afrikaaner scum in jail, they'd have done so. Sometimes, you're forced to go with your next best option.
Dragan, call me brainwashed, but I'd take the media available to me (especially in the 90s) over that available to people in the Balkans anyday. Speaking from personal experience, one simply cannot compare. Unbelievable how people subjected to some of the worst BS and propaganda known to mankind can actually accuse others of lacking in objective sources.
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So basically, the answer is a truth commission that is in complete harmony with your personal views.
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 16:56)
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No Danilo, one established through the UN would be a good start with a truly international presence.
I think that both Serbia and Croatia would be willing, however, getting the Bosnian Muslims, Slovenians and Albanians (who have much to hide) would be difficult. Now getting the West (US, Germany, UK and the Vatican) would be near impossible.
The "great powers" have their agenda and truth or reconciliation is not a part of it.
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"No Danilo, one established through the UN would be a good start "
I see Zoran. So something kind of like: http://www.icty.org/sections/AbouttheICTY
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Zoran
That initiative is called RECOM
http://zarekom.org/
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if any one in this whole entire world is a war criminal then it has to be first of all The USA .... And the Vatican ... Bill Clinton . Bush the dumbest president of all of Americas history ... and last but not least the Hague Tribunal its a joke of a court ... Mr Seselj Demolished all of the witnesses and there creditability . JOKE JOKE OF A COURT .. Seselj is smarter then the whole entire court put together. LET the men go home to his family and never open that stupid court again.
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And that's the problem, Zoran.
Do you seriously think that people could agree on who would run such a thing?
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So basically, the answer is a truth commission that is in complete harmony with your personal views.
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Sometimes, you're forced to go with your next best option.
(Nenad, 15 March 2012 16:59)
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So the "next best option" from the west was not to put itself under the microscope or any of its partners in crime but only those that resisted its hegemony? That is the essence of it right?
Now that is the reason why so many Serbians are fighting for the truth. That is not justice my friend, that is called bullying. Since the bullies did not take the opportunity to reconcile the people, the cycle will repeat again and again until the divisions are removed.
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I see Zoran. So something kind of like: [link]
(Danilo, 15 March 2012 18:27)
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LOL Danilo, I am talking about Truth and Reconciliation, not justice (particularly the selective type). Since we are on this topic, are you familiar with the foundations of this NATO court? It wasn't funded by the UN initially but rather some shady organisations through Madeline Halfbright. Even Carla Del Ponte confirmed political interference in this so-called court.
It is a complete joke my friend and formed during a time when Russia was on its knees while China really only cared about its internal affairs. Now in a multipolar world, I have a little more trust in the UN. I would even move the organ snatching investigation to it but we are getting resistance from the usual culprits.
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Zoran, 14 March 2012 22:53)
You do realize that in South Africa the whites controlled everything, now the opposition actually controls the govt. Is this what you are really proposing for Yugoslavia, that Serbs become just another political faction and not the controlling govt. That Albanians have all the rights, freedoms, and power that Serbs do? If that was actually the proposal at any given point in time the west would have supported and probably and huge portion of the Albanians. while you have some Albanians that dream of a pure state just like some Serbs dream of a pure state, the majority just wanted the same rights and freedoms.
But in reality I am sure you are like most and still want to hold onto the trum card. The Albanians can have all that up to the point that Serbs have the final say. That is not what South Africa has.
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Greetings from the Czech Republic.
Šešelj is the true Serbian hero, you should be proud of him.
http://www.vseselj.com/files/books/TheIdeologyofSerbianNationalism.pdf
http://www.vseselj.com/files/books/Rimokatolicki-na-engleskom.pdf
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