28

Wednesday, 29.02.2012.

14:36

"Vlachs in Serbia (not) deprived of rights"

The Vlach community is not deprived of their rights and are not underprivileged, says Vlach National Council President Radiša Dragojević.

Izvor: B92

"Vlachs in Serbia (not) deprived of rights" IMAGE SOURCE
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28 Komentari

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EU Dude

pre 12 godina

"Today, every nation, with the exception of Roma people, have at least a state (I mean a nation-state) as homeland"

S. Badescu,

Sorry old chap, not quite. You forgot the Kurds. Now that the 'Rebels' have fled Homs with their tails between their legs (or as the BBC uncritically quotes their propaganda as "a tactical retreat"), a glorious western military intervention with brave saudi and qatari troops, no doubt holding the koran in one hand and burqa's in the other, to liberate Syria from the evil Assad is no longer possible. For the moment. A torn up Syria would have advanced the possibility of a united Kurdish state as they are practically independent in Iraq and Turkey has yet again failed to treat their own kurds with any respect or rights.

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

Dear Ataman where is Szemi. He likes too much this kind of posts.
(dori tirana, 2 March 2012 00:03)

He went to inspect a very promising spoon, he, too, works for Tel Aviv but we do not promote that fact being afraid of unpopularity among Albanians

(Ataman, 2 March 2012 11:18)
Very well for Szemi. I see you are working too hard. Normally 2014 is coming. I’m much exited to see live the T-90 tanks that you are promising us. I’ll be in front line with flowers expecting you. Ok I don’t want to loose more your precious time.

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

Dear Ataman where is Szemi. He likes too much this kind of posts.
(dori tirana, 2 March 2012 00:03)

He went to inspect a very promising spoon, he, too, works for Tel Aviv but we do not promote that fact being afraid of unpopularity among Albanians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Go0AmLqTc

Very European, democratic and peaceful.

Sieg - heil, Dori!

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

@ Dori Tirana

As I said, when we think about ancient times, most of facts are mixed with legend, and we are using (mostly) suppositions.
(S. Badescu, 1 March 2012 20:59)

Tsk, tsk, the deep state secret is: the stronger the ancient romantic ethnogenesis is promoted, the stronger is the failure of the promoting government to create well-paid and meaningful jobs.

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

S. Badescu,
I personally am very proud of my father, but only for myself. I do not want to boast to others about my father , but for what I accomplish in my life personally. With the same analogy is not important to me who were Illyrians, but what Albanians are doing today. Are they progressing?
But the problem in this part of the Balkans where I live, started when Fathers of independent Greece from Ottomans began feverishly to work on dust maps of Byzantium(Megal Idea) and than Fathers of independent Serbia began to work on maps of the Serbian kingdom of 14century(Greater Serbia). In this context we mention the Illyrians, not for pretending their land. What we wanted in 1912 was to be included in the state of Albania all the towns and villages that were largely Albanian and in continuity with today's Albania(not all Illyrian lands). Now this is finished story and the approach of Albanians of today is the EU integration of all West of Balkan. So we get united with the most developed part of World, but also we get united with each other. Free people, free movement, and fair competition. That’s all we want.

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

He says that despises Albanian folk but he is simultaneously stimulant&victim of hatred Balkan folk.
(dori tirana, 1 March 2012 14:36)

No kiddin, I am financing the upcoming Operation Quetzalcoatl-2014 of Russian army; they will fire old rusty spoons from the barrels of the T-90 tanks all over Prizren. Currently buying these spoons all over Hungary and selling to Russians and Serbs with a good profit - in the best tradition of Dohány Street, we can't live without making money.

Our slogan: "No Spoon Left Behind", the money goes into a secret Kremlin account, owned by Tel Aviv.

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S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Dori Tirana

As I said, when we think about ancient times, most of facts are mixed with legend, and we are using (mostly) suppositions. When the time-travel machine will be invented, we will know for sure what happened in this or that day, and who originates from whom. Until then, everybody should take such matters easy, and not make a cause of fight from old, dead things.
Today, what is important is education and economic development. It makes no difference who fought whom 1,000 years ago, over a piece of land. Today, every nation, with the exception of Roma people, have at least a state (I mean a nation-state) as homeland, and minority groups are everywhere, therefore we are in this situation together. The EU construction is useful in setting up the standards for minority protection, and also for political, economical and even cultural co-operation among member states. But, even if tomorrow EU breaks down, the common-sense approach would be to network all the area of Europe (Balkans included) in bilateral and multilateral agreements, making easier the circulation of people, money and goods. The real value of Europe is the human resource and its diversity, in terms of culture and spirituality. Why not to benefit from it, all of us?
We are good as human beings not because of who our ancestors were back then, but due to our actions of today. In 100 years from now, when everybody will speak a sort of Esperanto version of English and passports will be needed only to go to the Moon, the children of our grandchildren will look back and say "Those crazy bastards, they fought and debated so hard among themselves for such trivial things! Thanks God, for that in the end, they build a better world for us, with less famine and bigotry, and more education and happiness". After all, we are all trying to build a better life for us and our kids, isn't so?

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Mihai

pre 12 godina

It's all over. Stop the bickering: Serbia and Romania signed a treaty that guarantees the romanian minority( both "vlach" and "romanian") their rights.

It's better this way. Please Serbia, you still have time to escape this prison called EU...

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

@ S. Badescu,
However, it is obvious to me that the history you have been taught regarding ancient and medieval times of the Carpathic Basin is quite different from the one I was taught. It may be the fact that we both learned it during Communism (I am 37 years old :) and I presume you're not younger than me). No reason to fight over history, so let's agree to disagree, OK? :)

The region was inhabited by Thracians (the Daco-Getae being the tribes living North of Danube), from today-Ukraine to the regions inhabited by Illirians (ancestors of Albanians).

(S. Badescu, 1 March 2012 10:43)

I respect your knowledge, but reading the posts of Ataman for several months I know that he will agree to disagree for everything with you, but not for Illyrian origins of Albanians. At this point he is more Serb than Serbs, and generally is more Russian than Russians. He says that despises Albanian folk but he is simultaneously stimulant&victim of hatred Balkan folk.

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nik

pre 12 godina

Mircea: They themselves or Serbia shouldn't decide what they are since we all know that they are Romanian.
All that matters is what they themselves decide! To declare all the people who speak a Latin langusge on the territiry of the former Easetern Roman Empire is absurd!

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Mircea

pre 12 godina

Of course the vlach are Romanian minority in Serbia! If they say anything else they are threatened or bribed by Serbian authorities. As soon as EU decides that they are a Romanian minority everything will be all right. They themselves or Serbia shouldn't decide what they are since we all know that they are Romanian.
EU will solve this and if Serbia only behaves a little better Serbia will to join the EU and most problems will be solved.

My prediction is that Serbia might be able to join the EU in 2019 or 2020. Macedonia probably in a few years as well as Montenegro. Last before Serbia to join the EU will be Bosnia Herzegovina wich will join about 2015-2016.

Long live the EU!

Proud EU citizen from Bukarest, Paris of the eastern Europe, Mircea

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Dorin

pre 12 godina

@Trizo,

No offense, but you make a confussion. We are not talking here about immigrants, but of historical communities living in their lands for centuries, side by side with the majority people. So, your sayings are applicable to, let's say, Chinese coming to Serbia or Romania, or Romanians/Serbs/Polish/Albanians etc. going to Canada, Australia or USA.

Life as immigrant is tough, I have friends who left Romania for USA and Canada and they have mixed feelings about their situation.
But a Hungarian born in Romania, a Romanian born in Serbia, a Serb born in Croatia or an Albanian born in Kosovo are not immigrants, but members of their (minority) communities.
And we are talking about EU here, not about Australia, where the Australian Aborigines got the right to vote only in 1962!

@ Fred
Same as above, regarding US case.

Last but not least, nobody here was talking about NOT learning the official language of the country in which the person is living. If you live in Australia or US, then of course you learn English. Same if you live in France, Romania or Serbia - you learn French, Romanian or Serbian (not all three simultaneously, although I know a Serb from Timisoara who speaks perfect Romanian, and also French no worse than me :)

Here, we are talking about keeping the mother tongue for (historical) minority communities, not groups of immigrants (although, if the group grows and they settle, I see no reason for the state to support them in learning and keeping their mother language).

Last but not least, regarding the "democratic record" of countries like US or Australia, I do not remember United Nations proclaming that sun rises from Sydney or Washington (the last ones wo had this ambition were the Soviets, and it did them no good!).

With regards, from Bucharest,
proud to be European, and of Balkans,
and interested more in what Canadians have to say :)
Dorin

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Kосово срце Србије

pre 12 godina

During history, Romanians and Serbians have been very close. We have a common byzantine tradition. But don't forget that Vlach is the old name of Romanian, given, at first, to the German tribes that have adopted Christian religion and Latin language. The term Vlach is originally an exonym. All the Vlach groups used various words derived from romanus to refer to themselves: Români, Rumâni, Rumâri, Aromâni, Arumâni etc. For more information, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs I hope the serbian-romanian friendship will will.

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S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman
Thanks for your reply. Apologies, but its not clear to me what do you mean when saying "we"? Do you mean we, Serbs, or we, Hungarians? Or Russians? :)

However, it is obvious to me that the history you have been taught regarding ancient and medieval times of the Carpathic Basin is quite different from the one I was taught. It may be the fact that we both learned it during Communism (I am 37 years old :) and I presume you're not younger than me). No reason to fight over history, so let's agree to disagree, OK? :)
I recognize, however, the Hungarian thesis of Proto-Romanians (called Vlachs, Olahs etc. by their neighbours) popping up as from nowhere in Danube Basin, preferably from South of Danube and after Hungarian tribes arriving in Europe. In all our live (!) we considered this as the standard Hungarian argument in relation with the question of "Who were the first in Transylvania, Romanians or Hungarians?" (if there were no Vlachs/Proto-Romanians in Wallachia and Moldavia, then they would be missing from Transylvania, too...)
For the sake of offering other posters here with an alternative to your input, I would quote what wikipedia (what we would do without it?) says:

"According to Gesta Hungarorum, Transylvania was ruled by Vlach voivode Gelou in the time of Hungarian arrival. Kingdom of Hungary firmly established its control over Transylvania in 1003, when king Stephen I, according to legend, defeated the prince entitled or named Gyula (...) The Hungarian form Erdély was first mentioned in the 12th century Gesta Hungarorum as "Erdeuleu". Erdel, the Turkish equivalent originates from this form, too. The first known written occurrence of the Romanian name Ardeal appeared in a document in 1432 as Ardeliu."

As a side note, Romanians are using, generally, the term "Transylvania", since this was always the name of the province, used also by foreigners (Bram Stoker included!). It may be that Serbs are using the Hungarian form of Erdely (Ardeal is the Romanianized form) due to the contact with Hungarian population in Voivodina, who had a dominant position in the area when Southern Slavs arrived in Balkan Peninsula. Transylvania - a Latin term, was used and promoted mostly by Romanians, Romanian being Latin language.

About Vlachs origin, it seems to me that the most credible idea is that they are part of the Proto-Latin population which was formed during the Roman colonization/influence of the Balkan area, including the present-day Romania (former Dacia). The region was inhabited by Thracians (the Daco-Getae being the tribes living North of Danube), from today-Ukraine to the regions inhabited by Illirians (ancestors of Albanians). It seems that the tribes of Thracians of South of Danube, being horse-breeders and shepperds, have travelled around the Balkan area, coming in contact with Albanians, Greeks and, later, the Serbs and Bulgarians. If they would have been of Albanian origin, then they would have lost their identity, melting themselves into Albanian mass. Same, if they would have been of Serb origin. However, as long as their cultural, linguistic and religious identity is alive and vibrant, they have the right to assume their Latin, regional identity, in its modern form - namely, Romanian.

I agree with you - the ethnogenesis process of every people existing today, in Europe, Balkans or everywhere, was for sure more complex than what history books are saying (and very old history is impossible to be separated from legend, and viceversa). We all live in the present, not in the past, and arguments line "we were here first" or "our grand-grand-grandfather was Alexander the Great" are just childish. I was both sad and amused when Greece blocked Macedonia fromjoining NATO, at Bucharest Summit, just because the name of the country (since I do not think Greece seriously sees Macedonia as a threat...). I like to think that Romanians and Hungarians are serious people, also being smart enough to solve the minority problem in the two Transylvanian counties inhabited in majority by Hungarians, offering Hungaians even full positions in the Government (Ministries of Health, Culture, Environment... even the Head of the General Secretariat of Romanian Govt. is Hungarian, Attila Dezsi).

The arguments presented by Romanians/Vlachs in Timoc Valley are, also, related to the present situation. Human rights and minorities rights are also a modern concept, at the core of EU. Romania's position, as I understand it, says that every Vlach who wants to declare himself or herself as Romanian should be allowed to do so. We do not care is Serbia decides tomorrow that the official alphabet is the Russian Cyrillic, or the Chinese one - as long as, besides learning the official language and alphabet of Serbia, the Vlachs who consider themselves to be Romanians have the right and possibility to learn also Romanian. This is the same rights we give Serbs (and Hungarians, or Russians :) in Romania, so we ask for nothing more.

Ataman, you say "Romanian State trying to lay claim on Vlach communities in Serbia is pretty bizarre to say the least."
Well, Romania doesn't "claim" the Vlachs, since they are not furniture or land! Romania is supporting them upon their request, as brethren. Same is done by Budapest when trying to support those who declare themselves Hungarians in neighboring countries (Slovakia, Romania, Ukraine, Serbia) - with the ammendment that Romania does not support the "territorial autonomy" demanded by Hungarian communities living outside Hungary (this demand is something really bizzare!).

I do not understand what scares so much Serbs and Belgrade about Vlachs. there is no history of conflict between them and Serbs. We speak about loyal citizens of Serbia, who work and pay taxes in their country; keeping their (Romanian) language should be seen as an asset, in a global world market for labour force, and in the context of EU accession. For example, for Hungarians living in Romania, there are opportunities for education and work in both Bucharest and Budapest, because they speak both Romanian and Hungarian. Same for Serbs living in Romania. Why not to be like that for Romanians/Vlachs living in Serbia? Why to mimic the attitude of Kosovo Albanians, who refuse to learn Serbian, and by doing this, they simply reject the lingua franca in the region of Ex-Yugoslavia?
Speaking of Kosovo, is anybody really afraid of a "new Kosovo" in Timoc Valley? C'mon, guys, be serious, you are talking to Romanians here, remember?

Ataman, my friend, I support 100% your words, and so does most of Romanians:
"I am largely for disapearance of borders in any form, not introducing new ones or re-driving the old ones. If a community wants to self-govern let them try and if they are successful let them do it. But no borders and no hindering of movement of people and goods. So in that sense let Vlachs (or anyone else) to decide by themself."

So, let the Vlachs decide by themselves, shall we? Anyway, it is not Romania in the position to put any pressure on them to go for certain name or identity, but Serbia.
And we, Romanians, we promise that when Kosovo will knock on EU door (hopefully, during our lives), we will be as carefull with their performance on protecting their minorities (Serbs included) as we are, today, with the rights of Vlachs / Romanians in Timoc Valley!

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Sam

pre 12 godina

A hodge-podge of different tribes (Asian tribes) are the hungarian, not the romanians.
Romanians live in these places long before the hungarian tribes started their migration from Asia, the same thing is true with the slavic people and the roma.
You got the history all wrong Ataman!

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Sreten

pre 12 godina

Perhaps we should use wisdom of more "democratic" countries from our surroundings, ones that EU (including Romania) clearly and completely embraced.
In 1990, after Tudjman was elected they simply erased Serbian language, banned Cyrillic alphabet (closing 3 newspapers), banned use of "foreign" words (Serbian), etc. etc.
All this violated numerous OSCE rules on minority rights that state that minorities have right to preserve their heritage through use of their language, customs, etc. etc.

However, emerging EU (ECC at that time) ignored all those rules and gave full support to Tudjman.
From this we can only conclude that EU does not think OSCE minority rights rules should apply.
At the eve of possible EU candidacy, as meaningless as it is, Serbia should welcome opportunity to show support for European spirit of tolerance and understanding (which they've supported all over former Yugoslavia), by banning all other languages in Serbia but Serbian, and all other alphabets but Cyrillic.
Then again...I somehow feel that this would be wrong...
My conscience would feel really guilty about it. But, why if Europe never thought anything was wrong about it in say, Croatia?
And here, I see evidence that I'm not European just yet...

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trizo

pre 12 godina

Can we all try to just get along folks? Come on..life is so freakin short and we bicker about silly things. I live in the United States..no one here is complaing to the government that they are not being educated in their own native tongue. The language here is English..if you want to better your life and get a job, speak the language. The government owes none of us anything, you people sound like a bunch of babies..wanting of governments milk.if you want to speak your native tongue , learn it on your own, buy some books, work within your community and learn about your culture, just like we have to do in America. Serbia owes the Vlach or any other group nothing. Learn to work within the system folks and you will be much more happier. As far as Romania...I think as we all do they have enough on their plate they should mind their own business and work for making their citizens life better.Folks, life is tough every where, we all struggle to put food on the plate and have shelter...in America too. The streets are not paved with GOLD, you have to work you butt off, and you Europeans just are not tough enough it seems when you complaining about is a Vlach a Romanian, or this or that...
(Fred from the U.S., 29 February 2012 22:27)

I agree with a lot of what you said Fred.
I live in Australia but from Serbian descent. The only reason I was born here is because my grandparents spent 11 & 6 years respectively in German concentration camps & displaced persons camps during WW2. They had no home to go back to. They were shelled and never had an opportunity to return.

Anyway, many people from the Balkans have lived a very tough life with a lot of wars and prejudice against them for no good reason.

The average wage in Serbia is dismal and it is hard to find a job.

However, I do agree with you saying that the streets are not paved with gold and people work damn hard.

When I go to Serbia I have never witnessed anyone who works as hard as my family in Australia, so it really pi$$es me off when I hear a lot of complaining and people saying how "easy" things are in Australia or America.

When my grandparents came to Australia they were given NO special rights and they assimilated and learnt the English language via newspapers etc. They did not get any minority rights. They worked hard and did not have any privilege of a Serbian radio station or orthodox church in the local area. In fact when my granfather died he could not have a service at an orthodox church so he had the service in a CATHOLIC church but a Serbian orthodox priest came from hundreds of miles away to do the service and burial.

There are a lot more things I want to say but basically I totally understand where you are coming from.

One more point I want to make is that I learnt Serbian through books and internet and my own will. Nobody taught me but myself. I moved to Serbia in 2009 to live there and then came home in 2010 and went back again. I am going to build a house in Serbia and I have land now. I am not going to get Serbian rights here in Australia so what must I do? Move to Serbia (which i will do).

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman:

From same Wikipedia, quote: "The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was close to the contemporary version of the Early Cyrillic alphabet of the Old Church Slavonic liturgical language." [link]
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

yes, I am very much aware of that.

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However, this Cyrillic alphabet is quite different from the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet (developed by Vuk Karadzic).
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

This is also a common knowledge.

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I see no reason for which the usage in 18th Century of the Slavonic Cyrillic alphabet in Romania to be considered an argument for introducing today the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet to Romanian language-speakers in Serbia (be it in Timoc Valley or any other place).
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

This is something Titoesque about it. For instance by all means Macedonians are essentially Bulgarians. "Thanks" to Tito - Macedonian is written today à la Vuk Karadzic, not the way (almost the same) is written in Bulgaria. But if you look at the Serbian or Russian transcriptions and than transcript it back, things will look funny sometimes like "Nju Jork". It's clumsy probably but that's the custom, so if they change the medieval Romanian / Church Slavonic script to the taste of Vuk Karadzic - than let it be. Personally I REALLY do not like that change, purely from aestetic point of view the archaic was much more beautiful, what that "j" is looking for in "jу" - "ю" is the appropriate, IMHO. But if that's what they want, I can live with it. Personally I do tease Serbs about "ю" looking better than ""jу" and many even agree with me.

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Romanian language is Latin, Vlachs in Serbia are speaking Romanian (which doesn't forces them to embrace Romanian identity, if they do not want it), therefore any twist on this issue only brings up memories of political manipulation typical for Communist times.
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Na, here things go very serious and have to do with something you did mention later. In all our live we DID NOT regard Romanians as a single ethnic element. Romanians - as much as we did learn - are a hodge-podge of different tribes which did not appear in Carpathian Basin before ca. 12th-13th century. These tribes did speak all kind of dialects based on mixture of Thracian / Illyrian / etc. and bastardised common Latin. Some tribes (Vlachs) did have common origin with Albanians, many common Albanian / Vlach words are the proof. Also it is speculated, precisely the wandering way of Vlachs was reponsible for the Serb-Croatian / Bulgarian language separation which happened precisely around the time first Vlachs did appear in what we call "Havasalföld" (Valachia, area around Curtea de Arges, for instance).

Appearance of similar tribes in Moldova was about the same time - but they were by no means identic. The Slavic and Hungarian influence was extremely big also in Moldova, just a little example: what would mean "Ossetian Market-town" in Hungarian? The answer: "Jászvásár" = Iasi today. That is pretty much as Moldova as you want, but like "Kosovo" has no meaning in Albanian, so not even "Iasi" has any meaning in Romanian, it's "borrowed". And what the word "Ardeal" does mean in Romanian if even Serbs call it "Erdelj" ( = a "foresty place").

So from our point of view... the entire Romania is located on a "borrowed" place to begin with and the "real", modernized and post-processed Romanian language wasn't born till late 19th Century.

From that point of view Romanian State trying to lay claim on Vlach communities in Serbia is pretty bizarre to say the least. From our point of view the Vlachs are rather "latinized" Albanians, and both the "Natural Albania" and "Romania Mare" are concepts of 19th century, born with awakening of nationalism, pretty much like the Sumerian - Hungarian or Hittite - Polish/Croatian/Serbian/Russian kinship. Actually, all of them are the same and aren't 100% baseless: the more primitive folks try to mimic more advanced ones and got into taste of good things, gee, at the time Pythagoras and Cato did live all our forefathers did largely things you can get at least 15 years in jail today. So at one point some did decide, mimicking nations who came up with Pythagoras or Cato (or owned the Lapis Lazuri roads, built the zikkurats, etc.) is not a bad idea. But it's no more than that, Hungarians are not Sumirs, Serbs or Russians are not Hittites, Albanians are not Illyrians and Romanians are not a mix of Dacians with Roman settlers. Unfortunately - because it would sound so romantic ;)

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Last but not least, we see the Croats, of which Slavic origin nobody denies, very keen to use the Latin alphabet, and we deny it to a Latin-origin population?
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Croats are very proud of an other alphabet, the Latinica is something new for them, too. That is said to be also the work of St. Cyrill, by the way. But can you please read that "Latin" text found in Zagreb:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Glagoljica_Zagreb_Kathedral.jpg

That is in the very-very Latin-Catholic Zagrebian cathedral, as much Croatian as you can imagine ;)

Even worse: many road signs are in two scripts: Latinica and Glagolica. Some few in remote areas in Glagolica only. Makes fun to decypher as you drive.

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As a side note, the (Serbian) Cyrillic alphabet is the official alphabet of Serbia since 2006. For me, it looks like this is one of the effects of Kosovo debacle. When I was crossing through Voivodina, on my way to Kosovo, in 2001, there were maybe less than 20% of public signs, names of shops and other inscriptions with Cyrillic letters, and the rest were written with Latin letters. In 2008, the ratio was the opposite. Hopefully, everybody still wants to learn English in Serbia, 'cause they'll need it big time in EU (and please, don't call it "Americanish", or the Britons will really get upset!!)
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

I dunno, I can react faster if a sign is in Cyrilic than if it is in Latinica somehow. I find the non-Cyrillic signs in Ukraine or Serbia being bizarre. Because of that fact I am usually in the driver's seat, my wife can read Cyrillic perfectly but she does not react that fast.

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Ataman, I'm mistaking or you are of Hungarian origin?
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Yes, but it's more than just that. My orogin largely depends on the foot I wake up that day, recently - mainly because I despise the current and the past Hungarian regime and because I despise certain ways Hungarian intelligentsia does act (usually towards each other) - I tend to wake up with Russian feet first.

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If so, aren't you afraid that Hungarians of Voivodina will soon be provided with a nice Cyrillic alphabet, for learning their own (quite complicated) language? (just a joke, for testing the strength of the Romanian-Hungarian historical reconciliation!)
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Эн идь иш тудок бесеелны моадьарул, эз итт нем проблеемоа налам.
However, if it would be based on Vuk Karadzic - than I would be upset.
But the Sumerian runic script would work out as well.

Regarding the reconcillation: I am largely for disapearance of borders in any form, not introducing new ones or re-driving the old ones. If a community wants to self-govern let them try and if they are successful let them do it. But no borders and no hindering of movement of people and goods. So in that sense let Vlachs (or anyone else) to decide by themself. Just not at the cost of others like certain well, "pre-Vlachs" doing it in a certain Serbian province.

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Fred from the U.S.

pre 12 godina

Can we all try to just get along folks? Come on..life is so freakin short and we bicker about silly things. I live in the United States..no one here is complaing to the government that they are not being educated in their own native tongue. The language here is English..if you want to better your life and get a job, speak the language. The government owes none of us anything, you people sound like a bunch of babies..wanting of governments milk.if you want to speak your native tongue , learn it on your own, buy some books, work within your community and learn about your culture, just like we have to do in America. Serbia owes the Vlach or any other group nothing. Learn to work within the system folks and you will be much more happier. As far as Romania...I think as we all do they have enough on their plate they should mind their own business and work for making their citizens life better.Folks, life is tough every where, we all struggle to put food on the plate and have shelter...in America too. The streets are not paved with GOLD, you have to work you butt off, and you Europeans just are not tough enough it seems when you complaining about is a Vlach a Romanian, or this or that...

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 6
Has travelled around Serbia

pre 12 godina

Romanians, go to Petrovac-na-Mlavi, you'll see Vlachs aren't forced to use Cyrillic for anything. In most of Serbia, Latin is used more commonly than Cyrillic, anyway. The government uses Cyrillic, but take a stroll down any street in Belgrade, 90% of the letters you will see are Latin.

Preporučujem 11 Ne preporučujem 4
winston

pre 12 godina

I'm not sure what a Vlach is, or if they know themselves who they are but, I like saying the name, VLACH. If is fun and new. Thanks Romania for bringing these people to the forefront.

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 3
S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman:

From same Wikipedia, quote: "The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was close to the contemporary version of the Early Cyrillic alphabet of the Old Church Slavonic liturgical language." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Cyrillic_alphabet

The Cyrillic alphabet was used in Romanian Principalities because the first writings (and the usage of writing as a form of communication) were connected with the Curch. The rite was the Old Slavonic Church, henceforth the alphabet. However, this Cyrillic alphabet is quite different from the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet (developed by Vuk Karadzic). As we say in Romania, there is more than one short-tail dog in the world. However, from what I understand, the newly-invented "Vlach language" is supposed to use the Serbian Cyrillics.
For the modern Romania, Latin alphabet was a normal development, due to the Latin origin of the language. But before, there were other pressures, too. For example, many Romanian monks established in monasteries in Athos Mountain, starting with 15th Century, were using the Greek alphabet to write letters to their compatriots back home; also, later on, most of the rulers appointed by the Ottomans in Moldavia and Wallachia were of Greek origin, and they brought Greek alphabet with them. But even with the pressure of Greek rulers and Greek Orthodoxy, this alphabet was not able to resist.
I see no reason for which the usage in 18th Century of the Slavonic Cyrillic alphabet in Romania to be considered an argument for introducing today the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet to Romanian language-speakers in Serbia (be it in Timoc Valley or any other place). Romanian language is Latin, Vlachs in Serbia are speaking Romanian (which doesn't forces them to embrace Romanian identity, if they do not want it), therefore any twist on this issue only brings up memories of political manipulation typical for Communist times.
Last but not least, we see the Croats, of which Slavic origin nobody denies, very keen to use the Latin alphabet, and we deny it to a Latin-origin population?
As a side note, the (Serbian) Cyrillic alphabet is the official alphabet of Serbia since 2006. For me, it looks like this is one of the effects of Kosovo debacle. When I was crossing through Voivodina, on my way to Kosovo, in 2001, there were maybe less than 20% of public signs, names of shops and other inscriptions with Cyrillic letters, and the rest were written with Latin letters. In 2008, the ratio was the opposite. Hopefully, everybody still wants to learn English in Serbia, 'cause they'll need it big time in EU (and please, don't call it "Americanish", or the Britons will really get upset!!)

Ataman, I'm mistaking or you are of Hungarian origin? If so, aren't you afraid that Hungarians of Voivodina will soon be provided with a nice Cyrillic alphabet, for learning their own (quite complicated) language? (just a joke, for testing the strength of the Romanian-Hungarian historical reconciliation!)

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 4
Ataman

pre 12 godina

Latin LANGUAGES in Cyrillic, the worst joke I could be heard ever!!!
(Romanian Warrior, 29 February 2012 15:33)

Visit the monasteries around Suceava - and read the medieval frescoes. You will not only hear that joke - you will see it with your own eyes.

Even worse, the mean Serbs and Russians infiltrated the Wiki and now their mean lies are all over the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Cyrillic_alphabet

"The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was used to write the Romanian language before 1860–1862, when it was officially replaced by a Latin-based Romanian alphabet"

But again you do not need to read the Wiki, it's enough if you visit your own monasteries and look at the frescoes.

Preporučujem 7 Ne preporučujem 9
Romanian Warrior

pre 12 godina

"According to dragojević, the Vlachs and Romanians are two separate ethnic minorities. "
According with academic world, you "sir" are a really uneducated idiot!
As so-called "Vlach language" in Cyrillic, will suffer the same fate with other "Bolshevik invention " made in ussr, "moldovan" language, fantasies and rewrites history immediately canceled and despised in the academic world. Latin LANGUAGES in Cyrillic, the worst joke I could be heard ever!!!
Enough with the double standard and "positive discrimination".ROMANIA is a model in EU for how WE treat minorities , Serbs including-Barroso ,President of the European Commission said again and again .We ROMANIANS have built and Holocaust Memorial in Bucharest!!!!!, for jews and gypsies!!!!WHERE IS DISCRIMINATION against jews and gypsies in ROMANIA????As well party of the Hungarian minority(5% official census 2011 from total population) named udmr it was and it's in various Romanian
governments from 1996 till now.

Preporučujem 13 Ne preporučujem 16
Romanian Warrior

pre 12 godina

"According to dragojević, the Vlachs and Romanians are two separate ethnic minorities. "
According with academic world, you "sir" are a really uneducated idiot!
As so-called "Vlach language" in Cyrillic, will suffer the same fate with other "Bolshevik invention " made in ussr, "moldovan" language, fantasies and rewrites history immediately canceled and despised in the academic world. Latin LANGUAGES in Cyrillic, the worst joke I could be heard ever!!!
Enough with the double standard and "positive discrimination".ROMANIA is a model in EU for how WE treat minorities , Serbs including-Barroso ,President of the European Commission said again and again .We ROMANIANS have built and Holocaust Memorial in Bucharest!!!!!, for jews and gypsies!!!!WHERE IS DISCRIMINATION against jews and gypsies in ROMANIA????As well party of the Hungarian minority(5% official census 2011 from total population) named udmr it was and it's in various Romanian
governments from 1996 till now.

Preporučujem 13 Ne preporučujem 16
Has travelled around Serbia

pre 12 godina

Romanians, go to Petrovac-na-Mlavi, you'll see Vlachs aren't forced to use Cyrillic for anything. In most of Serbia, Latin is used more commonly than Cyrillic, anyway. The government uses Cyrillic, but take a stroll down any street in Belgrade, 90% of the letters you will see are Latin.

Preporučujem 11 Ne preporučujem 4
winston

pre 12 godina

I'm not sure what a Vlach is, or if they know themselves who they are but, I like saying the name, VLACH. If is fun and new. Thanks Romania for bringing these people to the forefront.

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 3
Fred from the U.S.

pre 12 godina

Can we all try to just get along folks? Come on..life is so freakin short and we bicker about silly things. I live in the United States..no one here is complaing to the government that they are not being educated in their own native tongue. The language here is English..if you want to better your life and get a job, speak the language. The government owes none of us anything, you people sound like a bunch of babies..wanting of governments milk.if you want to speak your native tongue , learn it on your own, buy some books, work within your community and learn about your culture, just like we have to do in America. Serbia owes the Vlach or any other group nothing. Learn to work within the system folks and you will be much more happier. As far as Romania...I think as we all do they have enough on their plate they should mind their own business and work for making their citizens life better.Folks, life is tough every where, we all struggle to put food on the plate and have shelter...in America too. The streets are not paved with GOLD, you have to work you butt off, and you Europeans just are not tough enough it seems when you complaining about is a Vlach a Romanian, or this or that...

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 6
Ataman

pre 12 godina

Latin LANGUAGES in Cyrillic, the worst joke I could be heard ever!!!
(Romanian Warrior, 29 February 2012 15:33)

Visit the monasteries around Suceava - and read the medieval frescoes. You will not only hear that joke - you will see it with your own eyes.

Even worse, the mean Serbs and Russians infiltrated the Wiki and now their mean lies are all over the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Cyrillic_alphabet

"The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was used to write the Romanian language before 1860–1862, when it was officially replaced by a Latin-based Romanian alphabet"

But again you do not need to read the Wiki, it's enough if you visit your own monasteries and look at the frescoes.

Preporučujem 7 Ne preporučujem 9
trizo

pre 12 godina

Can we all try to just get along folks? Come on..life is so freakin short and we bicker about silly things. I live in the United States..no one here is complaing to the government that they are not being educated in their own native tongue. The language here is English..if you want to better your life and get a job, speak the language. The government owes none of us anything, you people sound like a bunch of babies..wanting of governments milk.if you want to speak your native tongue , learn it on your own, buy some books, work within your community and learn about your culture, just like we have to do in America. Serbia owes the Vlach or any other group nothing. Learn to work within the system folks and you will be much more happier. As far as Romania...I think as we all do they have enough on their plate they should mind their own business and work for making their citizens life better.Folks, life is tough every where, we all struggle to put food on the plate and have shelter...in America too. The streets are not paved with GOLD, you have to work you butt off, and you Europeans just are not tough enough it seems when you complaining about is a Vlach a Romanian, or this or that...
(Fred from the U.S., 29 February 2012 22:27)

I agree with a lot of what you said Fred.
I live in Australia but from Serbian descent. The only reason I was born here is because my grandparents spent 11 & 6 years respectively in German concentration camps & displaced persons camps during WW2. They had no home to go back to. They were shelled and never had an opportunity to return.

Anyway, many people from the Balkans have lived a very tough life with a lot of wars and prejudice against them for no good reason.

The average wage in Serbia is dismal and it is hard to find a job.

However, I do agree with you saying that the streets are not paved with gold and people work damn hard.

When I go to Serbia I have never witnessed anyone who works as hard as my family in Australia, so it really pi$$es me off when I hear a lot of complaining and people saying how "easy" things are in Australia or America.

When my grandparents came to Australia they were given NO special rights and they assimilated and learnt the English language via newspapers etc. They did not get any minority rights. They worked hard and did not have any privilege of a Serbian radio station or orthodox church in the local area. In fact when my granfather died he could not have a service at an orthodox church so he had the service in a CATHOLIC church but a Serbian orthodox priest came from hundreds of miles away to do the service and burial.

There are a lot more things I want to say but basically I totally understand where you are coming from.

One more point I want to make is that I learnt Serbian through books and internet and my own will. Nobody taught me but myself. I moved to Serbia in 2009 to live there and then came home in 2010 and went back again. I am going to build a house in Serbia and I have land now. I am not going to get Serbian rights here in Australia so what must I do? Move to Serbia (which i will do).

Preporučujem 7 Ne preporučujem 2
Sreten

pre 12 godina

Perhaps we should use wisdom of more "democratic" countries from our surroundings, ones that EU (including Romania) clearly and completely embraced.
In 1990, after Tudjman was elected they simply erased Serbian language, banned Cyrillic alphabet (closing 3 newspapers), banned use of "foreign" words (Serbian), etc. etc.
All this violated numerous OSCE rules on minority rights that state that minorities have right to preserve their heritage through use of their language, customs, etc. etc.

However, emerging EU (ECC at that time) ignored all those rules and gave full support to Tudjman.
From this we can only conclude that EU does not think OSCE minority rights rules should apply.
At the eve of possible EU candidacy, as meaningless as it is, Serbia should welcome opportunity to show support for European spirit of tolerance and understanding (which they've supported all over former Yugoslavia), by banning all other languages in Serbia but Serbian, and all other alphabets but Cyrillic.
Then again...I somehow feel that this would be wrong...
My conscience would feel really guilty about it. But, why if Europe never thought anything was wrong about it in say, Croatia?
And here, I see evidence that I'm not European just yet...

Preporučujem 6 Ne preporučujem 1
S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman:

From same Wikipedia, quote: "The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was close to the contemporary version of the Early Cyrillic alphabet of the Old Church Slavonic liturgical language." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Cyrillic_alphabet

The Cyrillic alphabet was used in Romanian Principalities because the first writings (and the usage of writing as a form of communication) were connected with the Curch. The rite was the Old Slavonic Church, henceforth the alphabet. However, this Cyrillic alphabet is quite different from the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet (developed by Vuk Karadzic). As we say in Romania, there is more than one short-tail dog in the world. However, from what I understand, the newly-invented "Vlach language" is supposed to use the Serbian Cyrillics.
For the modern Romania, Latin alphabet was a normal development, due to the Latin origin of the language. But before, there were other pressures, too. For example, many Romanian monks established in monasteries in Athos Mountain, starting with 15th Century, were using the Greek alphabet to write letters to their compatriots back home; also, later on, most of the rulers appointed by the Ottomans in Moldavia and Wallachia were of Greek origin, and they brought Greek alphabet with them. But even with the pressure of Greek rulers and Greek Orthodoxy, this alphabet was not able to resist.
I see no reason for which the usage in 18th Century of the Slavonic Cyrillic alphabet in Romania to be considered an argument for introducing today the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet to Romanian language-speakers in Serbia (be it in Timoc Valley or any other place). Romanian language is Latin, Vlachs in Serbia are speaking Romanian (which doesn't forces them to embrace Romanian identity, if they do not want it), therefore any twist on this issue only brings up memories of political manipulation typical for Communist times.
Last but not least, we see the Croats, of which Slavic origin nobody denies, very keen to use the Latin alphabet, and we deny it to a Latin-origin population?
As a side note, the (Serbian) Cyrillic alphabet is the official alphabet of Serbia since 2006. For me, it looks like this is one of the effects of Kosovo debacle. When I was crossing through Voivodina, on my way to Kosovo, in 2001, there were maybe less than 20% of public signs, names of shops and other inscriptions with Cyrillic letters, and the rest were written with Latin letters. In 2008, the ratio was the opposite. Hopefully, everybody still wants to learn English in Serbia, 'cause they'll need it big time in EU (and please, don't call it "Americanish", or the Britons will really get upset!!)

Ataman, I'm mistaking or you are of Hungarian origin? If so, aren't you afraid that Hungarians of Voivodina will soon be provided with a nice Cyrillic alphabet, for learning their own (quite complicated) language? (just a joke, for testing the strength of the Romanian-Hungarian historical reconciliation!)

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 4
Ataman

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman:

From same Wikipedia, quote: "The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was close to the contemporary version of the Early Cyrillic alphabet of the Old Church Slavonic liturgical language." [link]
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

yes, I am very much aware of that.

-----

However, this Cyrillic alphabet is quite different from the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet (developed by Vuk Karadzic).
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

This is also a common knowledge.

-----

I see no reason for which the usage in 18th Century of the Slavonic Cyrillic alphabet in Romania to be considered an argument for introducing today the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet to Romanian language-speakers in Serbia (be it in Timoc Valley or any other place).
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

This is something Titoesque about it. For instance by all means Macedonians are essentially Bulgarians. "Thanks" to Tito - Macedonian is written today à la Vuk Karadzic, not the way (almost the same) is written in Bulgaria. But if you look at the Serbian or Russian transcriptions and than transcript it back, things will look funny sometimes like "Nju Jork". It's clumsy probably but that's the custom, so if they change the medieval Romanian / Church Slavonic script to the taste of Vuk Karadzic - than let it be. Personally I REALLY do not like that change, purely from aestetic point of view the archaic was much more beautiful, what that "j" is looking for in "jу" - "ю" is the appropriate, IMHO. But if that's what they want, I can live with it. Personally I do tease Serbs about "ю" looking better than ""jу" and many even agree with me.

-----

Romanian language is Latin, Vlachs in Serbia are speaking Romanian (which doesn't forces them to embrace Romanian identity, if they do not want it), therefore any twist on this issue only brings up memories of political manipulation typical for Communist times.
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Na, here things go very serious and have to do with something you did mention later. In all our live we DID NOT regard Romanians as a single ethnic element. Romanians - as much as we did learn - are a hodge-podge of different tribes which did not appear in Carpathian Basin before ca. 12th-13th century. These tribes did speak all kind of dialects based on mixture of Thracian / Illyrian / etc. and bastardised common Latin. Some tribes (Vlachs) did have common origin with Albanians, many common Albanian / Vlach words are the proof. Also it is speculated, precisely the wandering way of Vlachs was reponsible for the Serb-Croatian / Bulgarian language separation which happened precisely around the time first Vlachs did appear in what we call "Havasalföld" (Valachia, area around Curtea de Arges, for instance).

Appearance of similar tribes in Moldova was about the same time - but they were by no means identic. The Slavic and Hungarian influence was extremely big also in Moldova, just a little example: what would mean "Ossetian Market-town" in Hungarian? The answer: "Jászvásár" = Iasi today. That is pretty much as Moldova as you want, but like "Kosovo" has no meaning in Albanian, so not even "Iasi" has any meaning in Romanian, it's "borrowed". And what the word "Ardeal" does mean in Romanian if even Serbs call it "Erdelj" ( = a "foresty place").

So from our point of view... the entire Romania is located on a "borrowed" place to begin with and the "real", modernized and post-processed Romanian language wasn't born till late 19th Century.

From that point of view Romanian State trying to lay claim on Vlach communities in Serbia is pretty bizarre to say the least. From our point of view the Vlachs are rather "latinized" Albanians, and both the "Natural Albania" and "Romania Mare" are concepts of 19th century, born with awakening of nationalism, pretty much like the Sumerian - Hungarian or Hittite - Polish/Croatian/Serbian/Russian kinship. Actually, all of them are the same and aren't 100% baseless: the more primitive folks try to mimic more advanced ones and got into taste of good things, gee, at the time Pythagoras and Cato did live all our forefathers did largely things you can get at least 15 years in jail today. So at one point some did decide, mimicking nations who came up with Pythagoras or Cato (or owned the Lapis Lazuri roads, built the zikkurats, etc.) is not a bad idea. But it's no more than that, Hungarians are not Sumirs, Serbs or Russians are not Hittites, Albanians are not Illyrians and Romanians are not a mix of Dacians with Roman settlers. Unfortunately - because it would sound so romantic ;)

-----

Last but not least, we see the Croats, of which Slavic origin nobody denies, very keen to use the Latin alphabet, and we deny it to a Latin-origin population?
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Croats are very proud of an other alphabet, the Latinica is something new for them, too. That is said to be also the work of St. Cyrill, by the way. But can you please read that "Latin" text found in Zagreb:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Glagoljica_Zagreb_Kathedral.jpg

That is in the very-very Latin-Catholic Zagrebian cathedral, as much Croatian as you can imagine ;)

Even worse: many road signs are in two scripts: Latinica and Glagolica. Some few in remote areas in Glagolica only. Makes fun to decypher as you drive.

-----

As a side note, the (Serbian) Cyrillic alphabet is the official alphabet of Serbia since 2006. For me, it looks like this is one of the effects of Kosovo debacle. When I was crossing through Voivodina, on my way to Kosovo, in 2001, there were maybe less than 20% of public signs, names of shops and other inscriptions with Cyrillic letters, and the rest were written with Latin letters. In 2008, the ratio was the opposite. Hopefully, everybody still wants to learn English in Serbia, 'cause they'll need it big time in EU (and please, don't call it "Americanish", or the Britons will really get upset!!)
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

I dunno, I can react faster if a sign is in Cyrilic than if it is in Latinica somehow. I find the non-Cyrillic signs in Ukraine or Serbia being bizarre. Because of that fact I am usually in the driver's seat, my wife can read Cyrillic perfectly but she does not react that fast.

-----

Ataman, I'm mistaking or you are of Hungarian origin?
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Yes, but it's more than just that. My orogin largely depends on the foot I wake up that day, recently - mainly because I despise the current and the past Hungarian regime and because I despise certain ways Hungarian intelligentsia does act (usually towards each other) - I tend to wake up with Russian feet first.

-----

If so, aren't you afraid that Hungarians of Voivodina will soon be provided with a nice Cyrillic alphabet, for learning their own (quite complicated) language? (just a joke, for testing the strength of the Romanian-Hungarian historical reconciliation!)
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Эн идь иш тудок бесеелны моадьарул, эз итт нем проблеемоа налам.
However, if it would be based on Vuk Karadzic - than I would be upset.
But the Sumerian runic script would work out as well.

Regarding the reconcillation: I am largely for disapearance of borders in any form, not introducing new ones or re-driving the old ones. If a community wants to self-govern let them try and if they are successful let them do it. But no borders and no hindering of movement of people and goods. So in that sense let Vlachs (or anyone else) to decide by themself. Just not at the cost of others like certain well, "pre-Vlachs" doing it in a certain Serbian province.

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 7
S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman
Thanks for your reply. Apologies, but its not clear to me what do you mean when saying "we"? Do you mean we, Serbs, or we, Hungarians? Or Russians? :)

However, it is obvious to me that the history you have been taught regarding ancient and medieval times of the Carpathic Basin is quite different from the one I was taught. It may be the fact that we both learned it during Communism (I am 37 years old :) and I presume you're not younger than me). No reason to fight over history, so let's agree to disagree, OK? :)
I recognize, however, the Hungarian thesis of Proto-Romanians (called Vlachs, Olahs etc. by their neighbours) popping up as from nowhere in Danube Basin, preferably from South of Danube and after Hungarian tribes arriving in Europe. In all our live (!) we considered this as the standard Hungarian argument in relation with the question of "Who were the first in Transylvania, Romanians or Hungarians?" (if there were no Vlachs/Proto-Romanians in Wallachia and Moldavia, then they would be missing from Transylvania, too...)
For the sake of offering other posters here with an alternative to your input, I would quote what wikipedia (what we would do without it?) says:

"According to Gesta Hungarorum, Transylvania was ruled by Vlach voivode Gelou in the time of Hungarian arrival. Kingdom of Hungary firmly established its control over Transylvania in 1003, when king Stephen I, according to legend, defeated the prince entitled or named Gyula (...) The Hungarian form Erdély was first mentioned in the 12th century Gesta Hungarorum as "Erdeuleu". Erdel, the Turkish equivalent originates from this form, too. The first known written occurrence of the Romanian name Ardeal appeared in a document in 1432 as Ardeliu."

As a side note, Romanians are using, generally, the term "Transylvania", since this was always the name of the province, used also by foreigners (Bram Stoker included!). It may be that Serbs are using the Hungarian form of Erdely (Ardeal is the Romanianized form) due to the contact with Hungarian population in Voivodina, who had a dominant position in the area when Southern Slavs arrived in Balkan Peninsula. Transylvania - a Latin term, was used and promoted mostly by Romanians, Romanian being Latin language.

About Vlachs origin, it seems to me that the most credible idea is that they are part of the Proto-Latin population which was formed during the Roman colonization/influence of the Balkan area, including the present-day Romania (former Dacia). The region was inhabited by Thracians (the Daco-Getae being the tribes living North of Danube), from today-Ukraine to the regions inhabited by Illirians (ancestors of Albanians). It seems that the tribes of Thracians of South of Danube, being horse-breeders and shepperds, have travelled around the Balkan area, coming in contact with Albanians, Greeks and, later, the Serbs and Bulgarians. If they would have been of Albanian origin, then they would have lost their identity, melting themselves into Albanian mass. Same, if they would have been of Serb origin. However, as long as their cultural, linguistic and religious identity is alive and vibrant, they have the right to assume their Latin, regional identity, in its modern form - namely, Romanian.

I agree with you - the ethnogenesis process of every people existing today, in Europe, Balkans or everywhere, was for sure more complex than what history books are saying (and very old history is impossible to be separated from legend, and viceversa). We all live in the present, not in the past, and arguments line "we were here first" or "our grand-grand-grandfather was Alexander the Great" are just childish. I was both sad and amused when Greece blocked Macedonia fromjoining NATO, at Bucharest Summit, just because the name of the country (since I do not think Greece seriously sees Macedonia as a threat...). I like to think that Romanians and Hungarians are serious people, also being smart enough to solve the minority problem in the two Transylvanian counties inhabited in majority by Hungarians, offering Hungaians even full positions in the Government (Ministries of Health, Culture, Environment... even the Head of the General Secretariat of Romanian Govt. is Hungarian, Attila Dezsi).

The arguments presented by Romanians/Vlachs in Timoc Valley are, also, related to the present situation. Human rights and minorities rights are also a modern concept, at the core of EU. Romania's position, as I understand it, says that every Vlach who wants to declare himself or herself as Romanian should be allowed to do so. We do not care is Serbia decides tomorrow that the official alphabet is the Russian Cyrillic, or the Chinese one - as long as, besides learning the official language and alphabet of Serbia, the Vlachs who consider themselves to be Romanians have the right and possibility to learn also Romanian. This is the same rights we give Serbs (and Hungarians, or Russians :) in Romania, so we ask for nothing more.

Ataman, you say "Romanian State trying to lay claim on Vlach communities in Serbia is pretty bizarre to say the least."
Well, Romania doesn't "claim" the Vlachs, since they are not furniture or land! Romania is supporting them upon their request, as brethren. Same is done by Budapest when trying to support those who declare themselves Hungarians in neighboring countries (Slovakia, Romania, Ukraine, Serbia) - with the ammendment that Romania does not support the "territorial autonomy" demanded by Hungarian communities living outside Hungary (this demand is something really bizzare!).

I do not understand what scares so much Serbs and Belgrade about Vlachs. there is no history of conflict between them and Serbs. We speak about loyal citizens of Serbia, who work and pay taxes in their country; keeping their (Romanian) language should be seen as an asset, in a global world market for labour force, and in the context of EU accession. For example, for Hungarians living in Romania, there are opportunities for education and work in both Bucharest and Budapest, because they speak both Romanian and Hungarian. Same for Serbs living in Romania. Why not to be like that for Romanians/Vlachs living in Serbia? Why to mimic the attitude of Kosovo Albanians, who refuse to learn Serbian, and by doing this, they simply reject the lingua franca in the region of Ex-Yugoslavia?
Speaking of Kosovo, is anybody really afraid of a "new Kosovo" in Timoc Valley? C'mon, guys, be serious, you are talking to Romanians here, remember?

Ataman, my friend, I support 100% your words, and so does most of Romanians:
"I am largely for disapearance of borders in any form, not introducing new ones or re-driving the old ones. If a community wants to self-govern let them try and if they are successful let them do it. But no borders and no hindering of movement of people and goods. So in that sense let Vlachs (or anyone else) to decide by themself."

So, let the Vlachs decide by themselves, shall we? Anyway, it is not Romania in the position to put any pressure on them to go for certain name or identity, but Serbia.
And we, Romanians, we promise that when Kosovo will knock on EU door (hopefully, during our lives), we will be as carefull with their performance on protecting their minorities (Serbs included) as we are, today, with the rights of Vlachs / Romanians in Timoc Valley!

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Mihai

pre 12 godina

It's all over. Stop the bickering: Serbia and Romania signed a treaty that guarantees the romanian minority( both "vlach" and "romanian") their rights.

It's better this way. Please Serbia, you still have time to escape this prison called EU...

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Sam

pre 12 godina

A hodge-podge of different tribes (Asian tribes) are the hungarian, not the romanians.
Romanians live in these places long before the hungarian tribes started their migration from Asia, the same thing is true with the slavic people and the roma.
You got the history all wrong Ataman!

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Kосово срце Србије

pre 12 godina

During history, Romanians and Serbians have been very close. We have a common byzantine tradition. But don't forget that Vlach is the old name of Romanian, given, at first, to the German tribes that have adopted Christian religion and Latin language. The term Vlach is originally an exonym. All the Vlach groups used various words derived from romanus to refer to themselves: Români, Rumâni, Rumâri, Aromâni, Arumâni etc. For more information, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs I hope the serbian-romanian friendship will will.

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Dorin

pre 12 godina

@Trizo,

No offense, but you make a confussion. We are not talking here about immigrants, but of historical communities living in their lands for centuries, side by side with the majority people. So, your sayings are applicable to, let's say, Chinese coming to Serbia or Romania, or Romanians/Serbs/Polish/Albanians etc. going to Canada, Australia or USA.

Life as immigrant is tough, I have friends who left Romania for USA and Canada and they have mixed feelings about their situation.
But a Hungarian born in Romania, a Romanian born in Serbia, a Serb born in Croatia or an Albanian born in Kosovo are not immigrants, but members of their (minority) communities.
And we are talking about EU here, not about Australia, where the Australian Aborigines got the right to vote only in 1962!

@ Fred
Same as above, regarding US case.

Last but not least, nobody here was talking about NOT learning the official language of the country in which the person is living. If you live in Australia or US, then of course you learn English. Same if you live in France, Romania or Serbia - you learn French, Romanian or Serbian (not all three simultaneously, although I know a Serb from Timisoara who speaks perfect Romanian, and also French no worse than me :)

Here, we are talking about keeping the mother tongue for (historical) minority communities, not groups of immigrants (although, if the group grows and they settle, I see no reason for the state to support them in learning and keeping their mother language).

Last but not least, regarding the "democratic record" of countries like US or Australia, I do not remember United Nations proclaming that sun rises from Sydney or Washington (the last ones wo had this ambition were the Soviets, and it did them no good!).

With regards, from Bucharest,
proud to be European, and of Balkans,
and interested more in what Canadians have to say :)
Dorin

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nik

pre 12 godina

Mircea: They themselves or Serbia shouldn't decide what they are since we all know that they are Romanian.
All that matters is what they themselves decide! To declare all the people who speak a Latin langusge on the territiry of the former Easetern Roman Empire is absurd!

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

@ S. Badescu,
However, it is obvious to me that the history you have been taught regarding ancient and medieval times of the Carpathic Basin is quite different from the one I was taught. It may be the fact that we both learned it during Communism (I am 37 years old :) and I presume you're not younger than me). No reason to fight over history, so let's agree to disagree, OK? :)

The region was inhabited by Thracians (the Daco-Getae being the tribes living North of Danube), from today-Ukraine to the regions inhabited by Illirians (ancestors of Albanians).

(S. Badescu, 1 March 2012 10:43)

I respect your knowledge, but reading the posts of Ataman for several months I know that he will agree to disagree for everything with you, but not for Illyrian origins of Albanians. At this point he is more Serb than Serbs, and generally is more Russian than Russians. He says that despises Albanian folk but he is simultaneously stimulant&victim of hatred Balkan folk.

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Mircea

pre 12 godina

Of course the vlach are Romanian minority in Serbia! If they say anything else they are threatened or bribed by Serbian authorities. As soon as EU decides that they are a Romanian minority everything will be all right. They themselves or Serbia shouldn't decide what they are since we all know that they are Romanian.
EU will solve this and if Serbia only behaves a little better Serbia will to join the EU and most problems will be solved.

My prediction is that Serbia might be able to join the EU in 2019 or 2020. Macedonia probably in a few years as well as Montenegro. Last before Serbia to join the EU will be Bosnia Herzegovina wich will join about 2015-2016.

Long live the EU!

Proud EU citizen from Bukarest, Paris of the eastern Europe, Mircea

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

He says that despises Albanian folk but he is simultaneously stimulant&victim of hatred Balkan folk.
(dori tirana, 1 March 2012 14:36)

No kiddin, I am financing the upcoming Operation Quetzalcoatl-2014 of Russian army; they will fire old rusty spoons from the barrels of the T-90 tanks all over Prizren. Currently buying these spoons all over Hungary and selling to Russians and Serbs with a good profit - in the best tradition of Dohány Street, we can't live without making money.

Our slogan: "No Spoon Left Behind", the money goes into a secret Kremlin account, owned by Tel Aviv.

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

S. Badescu,
I personally am very proud of my father, but only for myself. I do not want to boast to others about my father , but for what I accomplish in my life personally. With the same analogy is not important to me who were Illyrians, but what Albanians are doing today. Are they progressing?
But the problem in this part of the Balkans where I live, started when Fathers of independent Greece from Ottomans began feverishly to work on dust maps of Byzantium(Megal Idea) and than Fathers of independent Serbia began to work on maps of the Serbian kingdom of 14century(Greater Serbia). In this context we mention the Illyrians, not for pretending their land. What we wanted in 1912 was to be included in the state of Albania all the towns and villages that were largely Albanian and in continuity with today's Albania(not all Illyrian lands). Now this is finished story and the approach of Albanians of today is the EU integration of all West of Balkan. So we get united with the most developed part of World, but also we get united with each other. Free people, free movement, and fair competition. That’s all we want.

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

@ Dori Tirana

As I said, when we think about ancient times, most of facts are mixed with legend, and we are using (mostly) suppositions.
(S. Badescu, 1 March 2012 20:59)

Tsk, tsk, the deep state secret is: the stronger the ancient romantic ethnogenesis is promoted, the stronger is the failure of the promoting government to create well-paid and meaningful jobs.

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

Dear Ataman where is Szemi. He likes too much this kind of posts.
(dori tirana, 2 March 2012 00:03)

He went to inspect a very promising spoon, he, too, works for Tel Aviv but we do not promote that fact being afraid of unpopularity among Albanians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Go0AmLqTc

Very European, democratic and peaceful.

Sieg - heil, Dori!

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S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Dori Tirana

As I said, when we think about ancient times, most of facts are mixed with legend, and we are using (mostly) suppositions. When the time-travel machine will be invented, we will know for sure what happened in this or that day, and who originates from whom. Until then, everybody should take such matters easy, and not make a cause of fight from old, dead things.
Today, what is important is education and economic development. It makes no difference who fought whom 1,000 years ago, over a piece of land. Today, every nation, with the exception of Roma people, have at least a state (I mean a nation-state) as homeland, and minority groups are everywhere, therefore we are in this situation together. The EU construction is useful in setting up the standards for minority protection, and also for political, economical and even cultural co-operation among member states. But, even if tomorrow EU breaks down, the common-sense approach would be to network all the area of Europe (Balkans included) in bilateral and multilateral agreements, making easier the circulation of people, money and goods. The real value of Europe is the human resource and its diversity, in terms of culture and spirituality. Why not to benefit from it, all of us?
We are good as human beings not because of who our ancestors were back then, but due to our actions of today. In 100 years from now, when everybody will speak a sort of Esperanto version of English and passports will be needed only to go to the Moon, the children of our grandchildren will look back and say "Those crazy bastards, they fought and debated so hard among themselves for such trivial things! Thanks God, for that in the end, they build a better world for us, with less famine and bigotry, and more education and happiness". After all, we are all trying to build a better life for us and our kids, isn't so?

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

Dear Ataman where is Szemi. He likes too much this kind of posts.
(dori tirana, 2 March 2012 00:03)

He went to inspect a very promising spoon, he, too, works for Tel Aviv but we do not promote that fact being afraid of unpopularity among Albanians

(Ataman, 2 March 2012 11:18)
Very well for Szemi. I see you are working too hard. Normally 2014 is coming. I’m much exited to see live the T-90 tanks that you are promising us. I’ll be in front line with flowers expecting you. Ok I don’t want to loose more your precious time.

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EU Dude

pre 12 godina

"Today, every nation, with the exception of Roma people, have at least a state (I mean a nation-state) as homeland"

S. Badescu,

Sorry old chap, not quite. You forgot the Kurds. Now that the 'Rebels' have fled Homs with their tails between their legs (or as the BBC uncritically quotes their propaganda as "a tactical retreat"), a glorious western military intervention with brave saudi and qatari troops, no doubt holding the koran in one hand and burqa's in the other, to liberate Syria from the evil Assad is no longer possible. For the moment. A torn up Syria would have advanced the possibility of a united Kurdish state as they are practically independent in Iraq and Turkey has yet again failed to treat their own kurds with any respect or rights.

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Romanian Warrior

pre 12 godina

"According to dragojević, the Vlachs and Romanians are two separate ethnic minorities. "
According with academic world, you "sir" are a really uneducated idiot!
As so-called "Vlach language" in Cyrillic, will suffer the same fate with other "Bolshevik invention " made in ussr, "moldovan" language, fantasies and rewrites history immediately canceled and despised in the academic world. Latin LANGUAGES in Cyrillic, the worst joke I could be heard ever!!!
Enough with the double standard and "positive discrimination".ROMANIA is a model in EU for how WE treat minorities , Serbs including-Barroso ,President of the European Commission said again and again .We ROMANIANS have built and Holocaust Memorial in Bucharest!!!!!, for jews and gypsies!!!!WHERE IS DISCRIMINATION against jews and gypsies in ROMANIA????As well party of the Hungarian minority(5% official census 2011 from total population) named udmr it was and it's in various Romanian
governments from 1996 till now.

Preporučujem 13 Ne preporučujem 16
Ataman

pre 12 godina

Latin LANGUAGES in Cyrillic, the worst joke I could be heard ever!!!
(Romanian Warrior, 29 February 2012 15:33)

Visit the monasteries around Suceava - and read the medieval frescoes. You will not only hear that joke - you will see it with your own eyes.

Even worse, the mean Serbs and Russians infiltrated the Wiki and now their mean lies are all over the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Cyrillic_alphabet

"The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was used to write the Romanian language before 1860–1862, when it was officially replaced by a Latin-based Romanian alphabet"

But again you do not need to read the Wiki, it's enough if you visit your own monasteries and look at the frescoes.

Preporučujem 7 Ne preporučujem 9
Mircea

pre 12 godina

Of course the vlach are Romanian minority in Serbia! If they say anything else they are threatened or bribed by Serbian authorities. As soon as EU decides that they are a Romanian minority everything will be all right. They themselves or Serbia shouldn't decide what they are since we all know that they are Romanian.
EU will solve this and if Serbia only behaves a little better Serbia will to join the EU and most problems will be solved.

My prediction is that Serbia might be able to join the EU in 2019 or 2020. Macedonia probably in a few years as well as Montenegro. Last before Serbia to join the EU will be Bosnia Herzegovina wich will join about 2015-2016.

Long live the EU!

Proud EU citizen from Bukarest, Paris of the eastern Europe, Mircea

Preporučujem 1 Ne preporučujem 9
Ataman

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman:

From same Wikipedia, quote: "The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was close to the contemporary version of the Early Cyrillic alphabet of the Old Church Slavonic liturgical language." [link]
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

yes, I am very much aware of that.

-----

However, this Cyrillic alphabet is quite different from the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet (developed by Vuk Karadzic).
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

This is also a common knowledge.

-----

I see no reason for which the usage in 18th Century of the Slavonic Cyrillic alphabet in Romania to be considered an argument for introducing today the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet to Romanian language-speakers in Serbia (be it in Timoc Valley or any other place).
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

This is something Titoesque about it. For instance by all means Macedonians are essentially Bulgarians. "Thanks" to Tito - Macedonian is written today à la Vuk Karadzic, not the way (almost the same) is written in Bulgaria. But if you look at the Serbian or Russian transcriptions and than transcript it back, things will look funny sometimes like "Nju Jork". It's clumsy probably but that's the custom, so if they change the medieval Romanian / Church Slavonic script to the taste of Vuk Karadzic - than let it be. Personally I REALLY do not like that change, purely from aestetic point of view the archaic was much more beautiful, what that "j" is looking for in "jу" - "ю" is the appropriate, IMHO. But if that's what they want, I can live with it. Personally I do tease Serbs about "ю" looking better than ""jу" and many even agree with me.

-----

Romanian language is Latin, Vlachs in Serbia are speaking Romanian (which doesn't forces them to embrace Romanian identity, if they do not want it), therefore any twist on this issue only brings up memories of political manipulation typical for Communist times.
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Na, here things go very serious and have to do with something you did mention later. In all our live we DID NOT regard Romanians as a single ethnic element. Romanians - as much as we did learn - are a hodge-podge of different tribes which did not appear in Carpathian Basin before ca. 12th-13th century. These tribes did speak all kind of dialects based on mixture of Thracian / Illyrian / etc. and bastardised common Latin. Some tribes (Vlachs) did have common origin with Albanians, many common Albanian / Vlach words are the proof. Also it is speculated, precisely the wandering way of Vlachs was reponsible for the Serb-Croatian / Bulgarian language separation which happened precisely around the time first Vlachs did appear in what we call "Havasalföld" (Valachia, area around Curtea de Arges, for instance).

Appearance of similar tribes in Moldova was about the same time - but they were by no means identic. The Slavic and Hungarian influence was extremely big also in Moldova, just a little example: what would mean "Ossetian Market-town" in Hungarian? The answer: "Jászvásár" = Iasi today. That is pretty much as Moldova as you want, but like "Kosovo" has no meaning in Albanian, so not even "Iasi" has any meaning in Romanian, it's "borrowed". And what the word "Ardeal" does mean in Romanian if even Serbs call it "Erdelj" ( = a "foresty place").

So from our point of view... the entire Romania is located on a "borrowed" place to begin with and the "real", modernized and post-processed Romanian language wasn't born till late 19th Century.

From that point of view Romanian State trying to lay claim on Vlach communities in Serbia is pretty bizarre to say the least. From our point of view the Vlachs are rather "latinized" Albanians, and both the "Natural Albania" and "Romania Mare" are concepts of 19th century, born with awakening of nationalism, pretty much like the Sumerian - Hungarian or Hittite - Polish/Croatian/Serbian/Russian kinship. Actually, all of them are the same and aren't 100% baseless: the more primitive folks try to mimic more advanced ones and got into taste of good things, gee, at the time Pythagoras and Cato did live all our forefathers did largely things you can get at least 15 years in jail today. So at one point some did decide, mimicking nations who came up with Pythagoras or Cato (or owned the Lapis Lazuri roads, built the zikkurats, etc.) is not a bad idea. But it's no more than that, Hungarians are not Sumirs, Serbs or Russians are not Hittites, Albanians are not Illyrians and Romanians are not a mix of Dacians with Roman settlers. Unfortunately - because it would sound so romantic ;)

-----

Last but not least, we see the Croats, of which Slavic origin nobody denies, very keen to use the Latin alphabet, and we deny it to a Latin-origin population?
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Croats are very proud of an other alphabet, the Latinica is something new for them, too. That is said to be also the work of St. Cyrill, by the way. But can you please read that "Latin" text found in Zagreb:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Glagoljica_Zagreb_Kathedral.jpg

That is in the very-very Latin-Catholic Zagrebian cathedral, as much Croatian as you can imagine ;)

Even worse: many road signs are in two scripts: Latinica and Glagolica. Some few in remote areas in Glagolica only. Makes fun to decypher as you drive.

-----

As a side note, the (Serbian) Cyrillic alphabet is the official alphabet of Serbia since 2006. For me, it looks like this is one of the effects of Kosovo debacle. When I was crossing through Voivodina, on my way to Kosovo, in 2001, there were maybe less than 20% of public signs, names of shops and other inscriptions with Cyrillic letters, and the rest were written with Latin letters. In 2008, the ratio was the opposite. Hopefully, everybody still wants to learn English in Serbia, 'cause they'll need it big time in EU (and please, don't call it "Americanish", or the Britons will really get upset!!)
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

I dunno, I can react faster if a sign is in Cyrilic than if it is in Latinica somehow. I find the non-Cyrillic signs in Ukraine or Serbia being bizarre. Because of that fact I am usually in the driver's seat, my wife can read Cyrillic perfectly but she does not react that fast.

-----

Ataman, I'm mistaking or you are of Hungarian origin?
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Yes, but it's more than just that. My orogin largely depends on the foot I wake up that day, recently - mainly because I despise the current and the past Hungarian regime and because I despise certain ways Hungarian intelligentsia does act (usually towards each other) - I tend to wake up with Russian feet first.

-----

If so, aren't you afraid that Hungarians of Voivodina will soon be provided with a nice Cyrillic alphabet, for learning their own (quite complicated) language? (just a joke, for testing the strength of the Romanian-Hungarian historical reconciliation!)
(S. Badescu, 29 February 2012 20:44)

Эн идь иш тудок бесеелны моадьарул, эз итт нем проблеемоа налам.
However, if it would be based on Vuk Karadzic - than I would be upset.
But the Sumerian runic script would work out as well.

Regarding the reconcillation: I am largely for disapearance of borders in any form, not introducing new ones or re-driving the old ones. If a community wants to self-govern let them try and if they are successful let them do it. But no borders and no hindering of movement of people and goods. So in that sense let Vlachs (or anyone else) to decide by themself. Just not at the cost of others like certain well, "pre-Vlachs" doing it in a certain Serbian province.

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Fred from the U.S.

pre 12 godina

Can we all try to just get along folks? Come on..life is so freakin short and we bicker about silly things. I live in the United States..no one here is complaing to the government that they are not being educated in their own native tongue. The language here is English..if you want to better your life and get a job, speak the language. The government owes none of us anything, you people sound like a bunch of babies..wanting of governments milk.if you want to speak your native tongue , learn it on your own, buy some books, work within your community and learn about your culture, just like we have to do in America. Serbia owes the Vlach or any other group nothing. Learn to work within the system folks and you will be much more happier. As far as Romania...I think as we all do they have enough on their plate they should mind their own business and work for making their citizens life better.Folks, life is tough every where, we all struggle to put food on the plate and have shelter...in America too. The streets are not paved with GOLD, you have to work you butt off, and you Europeans just are not tough enough it seems when you complaining about is a Vlach a Romanian, or this or that...

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 6
S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman:

From same Wikipedia, quote: "The Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was close to the contemporary version of the Early Cyrillic alphabet of the Old Church Slavonic liturgical language." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Cyrillic_alphabet

The Cyrillic alphabet was used in Romanian Principalities because the first writings (and the usage of writing as a form of communication) were connected with the Curch. The rite was the Old Slavonic Church, henceforth the alphabet. However, this Cyrillic alphabet is quite different from the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet (developed by Vuk Karadzic). As we say in Romania, there is more than one short-tail dog in the world. However, from what I understand, the newly-invented "Vlach language" is supposed to use the Serbian Cyrillics.
For the modern Romania, Latin alphabet was a normal development, due to the Latin origin of the language. But before, there were other pressures, too. For example, many Romanian monks established in monasteries in Athos Mountain, starting with 15th Century, were using the Greek alphabet to write letters to their compatriots back home; also, later on, most of the rulers appointed by the Ottomans in Moldavia and Wallachia were of Greek origin, and they brought Greek alphabet with them. But even with the pressure of Greek rulers and Greek Orthodoxy, this alphabet was not able to resist.
I see no reason for which the usage in 18th Century of the Slavonic Cyrillic alphabet in Romania to be considered an argument for introducing today the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet to Romanian language-speakers in Serbia (be it in Timoc Valley or any other place). Romanian language is Latin, Vlachs in Serbia are speaking Romanian (which doesn't forces them to embrace Romanian identity, if they do not want it), therefore any twist on this issue only brings up memories of political manipulation typical for Communist times.
Last but not least, we see the Croats, of which Slavic origin nobody denies, very keen to use the Latin alphabet, and we deny it to a Latin-origin population?
As a side note, the (Serbian) Cyrillic alphabet is the official alphabet of Serbia since 2006. For me, it looks like this is one of the effects of Kosovo debacle. When I was crossing through Voivodina, on my way to Kosovo, in 2001, there were maybe less than 20% of public signs, names of shops and other inscriptions with Cyrillic letters, and the rest were written with Latin letters. In 2008, the ratio was the opposite. Hopefully, everybody still wants to learn English in Serbia, 'cause they'll need it big time in EU (and please, don't call it "Americanish", or the Britons will really get upset!!)

Ataman, I'm mistaking or you are of Hungarian origin? If so, aren't you afraid that Hungarians of Voivodina will soon be provided with a nice Cyrillic alphabet, for learning their own (quite complicated) language? (just a joke, for testing the strength of the Romanian-Hungarian historical reconciliation!)

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 4
Has travelled around Serbia

pre 12 godina

Romanians, go to Petrovac-na-Mlavi, you'll see Vlachs aren't forced to use Cyrillic for anything. In most of Serbia, Latin is used more commonly than Cyrillic, anyway. The government uses Cyrillic, but take a stroll down any street in Belgrade, 90% of the letters you will see are Latin.

Preporučujem 11 Ne preporučujem 4
winston

pre 12 godina

I'm not sure what a Vlach is, or if they know themselves who they are but, I like saying the name, VLACH. If is fun and new. Thanks Romania for bringing these people to the forefront.

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 3
trizo

pre 12 godina

Can we all try to just get along folks? Come on..life is so freakin short and we bicker about silly things. I live in the United States..no one here is complaing to the government that they are not being educated in their own native tongue. The language here is English..if you want to better your life and get a job, speak the language. The government owes none of us anything, you people sound like a bunch of babies..wanting of governments milk.if you want to speak your native tongue , learn it on your own, buy some books, work within your community and learn about your culture, just like we have to do in America. Serbia owes the Vlach or any other group nothing. Learn to work within the system folks and you will be much more happier. As far as Romania...I think as we all do they have enough on their plate they should mind their own business and work for making their citizens life better.Folks, life is tough every where, we all struggle to put food on the plate and have shelter...in America too. The streets are not paved with GOLD, you have to work you butt off, and you Europeans just are not tough enough it seems when you complaining about is a Vlach a Romanian, or this or that...
(Fred from the U.S., 29 February 2012 22:27)

I agree with a lot of what you said Fred.
I live in Australia but from Serbian descent. The only reason I was born here is because my grandparents spent 11 & 6 years respectively in German concentration camps & displaced persons camps during WW2. They had no home to go back to. They were shelled and never had an opportunity to return.

Anyway, many people from the Balkans have lived a very tough life with a lot of wars and prejudice against them for no good reason.

The average wage in Serbia is dismal and it is hard to find a job.

However, I do agree with you saying that the streets are not paved with gold and people work damn hard.

When I go to Serbia I have never witnessed anyone who works as hard as my family in Australia, so it really pi$$es me off when I hear a lot of complaining and people saying how "easy" things are in Australia or America.

When my grandparents came to Australia they were given NO special rights and they assimilated and learnt the English language via newspapers etc. They did not get any minority rights. They worked hard and did not have any privilege of a Serbian radio station or orthodox church in the local area. In fact when my granfather died he could not have a service at an orthodox church so he had the service in a CATHOLIC church but a Serbian orthodox priest came from hundreds of miles away to do the service and burial.

There are a lot more things I want to say but basically I totally understand where you are coming from.

One more point I want to make is that I learnt Serbian through books and internet and my own will. Nobody taught me but myself. I moved to Serbia in 2009 to live there and then came home in 2010 and went back again. I am going to build a house in Serbia and I have land now. I am not going to get Serbian rights here in Australia so what must I do? Move to Serbia (which i will do).

Preporučujem 7 Ne preporučujem 2
Ataman

pre 12 godina

He says that despises Albanian folk but he is simultaneously stimulant&victim of hatred Balkan folk.
(dori tirana, 1 March 2012 14:36)

No kiddin, I am financing the upcoming Operation Quetzalcoatl-2014 of Russian army; they will fire old rusty spoons from the barrels of the T-90 tanks all over Prizren. Currently buying these spoons all over Hungary and selling to Russians and Serbs with a good profit - in the best tradition of Dohány Street, we can't live without making money.

Our slogan: "No Spoon Left Behind", the money goes into a secret Kremlin account, owned by Tel Aviv.

Preporučujem 1 Ne preporučujem 2
Sreten

pre 12 godina

Perhaps we should use wisdom of more "democratic" countries from our surroundings, ones that EU (including Romania) clearly and completely embraced.
In 1990, after Tudjman was elected they simply erased Serbian language, banned Cyrillic alphabet (closing 3 newspapers), banned use of "foreign" words (Serbian), etc. etc.
All this violated numerous OSCE rules on minority rights that state that minorities have right to preserve their heritage through use of their language, customs, etc. etc.

However, emerging EU (ECC at that time) ignored all those rules and gave full support to Tudjman.
From this we can only conclude that EU does not think OSCE minority rights rules should apply.
At the eve of possible EU candidacy, as meaningless as it is, Serbia should welcome opportunity to show support for European spirit of tolerance and understanding (which they've supported all over former Yugoslavia), by banning all other languages in Serbia but Serbian, and all other alphabets but Cyrillic.
Then again...I somehow feel that this would be wrong...
My conscience would feel really guilty about it. But, why if Europe never thought anything was wrong about it in say, Croatia?
And here, I see evidence that I'm not European just yet...

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S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Ataman
Thanks for your reply. Apologies, but its not clear to me what do you mean when saying "we"? Do you mean we, Serbs, or we, Hungarians? Or Russians? :)

However, it is obvious to me that the history you have been taught regarding ancient and medieval times of the Carpathic Basin is quite different from the one I was taught. It may be the fact that we both learned it during Communism (I am 37 years old :) and I presume you're not younger than me). No reason to fight over history, so let's agree to disagree, OK? :)
I recognize, however, the Hungarian thesis of Proto-Romanians (called Vlachs, Olahs etc. by their neighbours) popping up as from nowhere in Danube Basin, preferably from South of Danube and after Hungarian tribes arriving in Europe. In all our live (!) we considered this as the standard Hungarian argument in relation with the question of "Who were the first in Transylvania, Romanians or Hungarians?" (if there were no Vlachs/Proto-Romanians in Wallachia and Moldavia, then they would be missing from Transylvania, too...)
For the sake of offering other posters here with an alternative to your input, I would quote what wikipedia (what we would do without it?) says:

"According to Gesta Hungarorum, Transylvania was ruled by Vlach voivode Gelou in the time of Hungarian arrival. Kingdom of Hungary firmly established its control over Transylvania in 1003, when king Stephen I, according to legend, defeated the prince entitled or named Gyula (...) The Hungarian form Erdély was first mentioned in the 12th century Gesta Hungarorum as "Erdeuleu". Erdel, the Turkish equivalent originates from this form, too. The first known written occurrence of the Romanian name Ardeal appeared in a document in 1432 as Ardeliu."

As a side note, Romanians are using, generally, the term "Transylvania", since this was always the name of the province, used also by foreigners (Bram Stoker included!). It may be that Serbs are using the Hungarian form of Erdely (Ardeal is the Romanianized form) due to the contact with Hungarian population in Voivodina, who had a dominant position in the area when Southern Slavs arrived in Balkan Peninsula. Transylvania - a Latin term, was used and promoted mostly by Romanians, Romanian being Latin language.

About Vlachs origin, it seems to me that the most credible idea is that they are part of the Proto-Latin population which was formed during the Roman colonization/influence of the Balkan area, including the present-day Romania (former Dacia). The region was inhabited by Thracians (the Daco-Getae being the tribes living North of Danube), from today-Ukraine to the regions inhabited by Illirians (ancestors of Albanians). It seems that the tribes of Thracians of South of Danube, being horse-breeders and shepperds, have travelled around the Balkan area, coming in contact with Albanians, Greeks and, later, the Serbs and Bulgarians. If they would have been of Albanian origin, then they would have lost their identity, melting themselves into Albanian mass. Same, if they would have been of Serb origin. However, as long as their cultural, linguistic and religious identity is alive and vibrant, they have the right to assume their Latin, regional identity, in its modern form - namely, Romanian.

I agree with you - the ethnogenesis process of every people existing today, in Europe, Balkans or everywhere, was for sure more complex than what history books are saying (and very old history is impossible to be separated from legend, and viceversa). We all live in the present, not in the past, and arguments line "we were here first" or "our grand-grand-grandfather was Alexander the Great" are just childish. I was both sad and amused when Greece blocked Macedonia fromjoining NATO, at Bucharest Summit, just because the name of the country (since I do not think Greece seriously sees Macedonia as a threat...). I like to think that Romanians and Hungarians are serious people, also being smart enough to solve the minority problem in the two Transylvanian counties inhabited in majority by Hungarians, offering Hungaians even full positions in the Government (Ministries of Health, Culture, Environment... even the Head of the General Secretariat of Romanian Govt. is Hungarian, Attila Dezsi).

The arguments presented by Romanians/Vlachs in Timoc Valley are, also, related to the present situation. Human rights and minorities rights are also a modern concept, at the core of EU. Romania's position, as I understand it, says that every Vlach who wants to declare himself or herself as Romanian should be allowed to do so. We do not care is Serbia decides tomorrow that the official alphabet is the Russian Cyrillic, or the Chinese one - as long as, besides learning the official language and alphabet of Serbia, the Vlachs who consider themselves to be Romanians have the right and possibility to learn also Romanian. This is the same rights we give Serbs (and Hungarians, or Russians :) in Romania, so we ask for nothing more.

Ataman, you say "Romanian State trying to lay claim on Vlach communities in Serbia is pretty bizarre to say the least."
Well, Romania doesn't "claim" the Vlachs, since they are not furniture or land! Romania is supporting them upon their request, as brethren. Same is done by Budapest when trying to support those who declare themselves Hungarians in neighboring countries (Slovakia, Romania, Ukraine, Serbia) - with the ammendment that Romania does not support the "territorial autonomy" demanded by Hungarian communities living outside Hungary (this demand is something really bizzare!).

I do not understand what scares so much Serbs and Belgrade about Vlachs. there is no history of conflict between them and Serbs. We speak about loyal citizens of Serbia, who work and pay taxes in their country; keeping their (Romanian) language should be seen as an asset, in a global world market for labour force, and in the context of EU accession. For example, for Hungarians living in Romania, there are opportunities for education and work in both Bucharest and Budapest, because they speak both Romanian and Hungarian. Same for Serbs living in Romania. Why not to be like that for Romanians/Vlachs living in Serbia? Why to mimic the attitude of Kosovo Albanians, who refuse to learn Serbian, and by doing this, they simply reject the lingua franca in the region of Ex-Yugoslavia?
Speaking of Kosovo, is anybody really afraid of a "new Kosovo" in Timoc Valley? C'mon, guys, be serious, you are talking to Romanians here, remember?

Ataman, my friend, I support 100% your words, and so does most of Romanians:
"I am largely for disapearance of borders in any form, not introducing new ones or re-driving the old ones. If a community wants to self-govern let them try and if they are successful let them do it. But no borders and no hindering of movement of people and goods. So in that sense let Vlachs (or anyone else) to decide by themself."

So, let the Vlachs decide by themselves, shall we? Anyway, it is not Romania in the position to put any pressure on them to go for certain name or identity, but Serbia.
And we, Romanians, we promise that when Kosovo will knock on EU door (hopefully, during our lives), we will be as carefull with their performance on protecting their minorities (Serbs included) as we are, today, with the rights of Vlachs / Romanians in Timoc Valley!

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nik

pre 12 godina

Mircea: They themselves or Serbia shouldn't decide what they are since we all know that they are Romanian.
All that matters is what they themselves decide! To declare all the people who speak a Latin langusge on the territiry of the former Easetern Roman Empire is absurd!

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Mihai

pre 12 godina

It's all over. Stop the bickering: Serbia and Romania signed a treaty that guarantees the romanian minority( both "vlach" and "romanian") their rights.

It's better this way. Please Serbia, you still have time to escape this prison called EU...

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

S. Badescu,
I personally am very proud of my father, but only for myself. I do not want to boast to others about my father , but for what I accomplish in my life personally. With the same analogy is not important to me who were Illyrians, but what Albanians are doing today. Are they progressing?
But the problem in this part of the Balkans where I live, started when Fathers of independent Greece from Ottomans began feverishly to work on dust maps of Byzantium(Megal Idea) and than Fathers of independent Serbia began to work on maps of the Serbian kingdom of 14century(Greater Serbia). In this context we mention the Illyrians, not for pretending their land. What we wanted in 1912 was to be included in the state of Albania all the towns and villages that were largely Albanian and in continuity with today's Albania(not all Illyrian lands). Now this is finished story and the approach of Albanians of today is the EU integration of all West of Balkan. So we get united with the most developed part of World, but also we get united with each other. Free people, free movement, and fair competition. That’s all we want.

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

@ Dori Tirana

As I said, when we think about ancient times, most of facts are mixed with legend, and we are using (mostly) suppositions.
(S. Badescu, 1 March 2012 20:59)

Tsk, tsk, the deep state secret is: the stronger the ancient romantic ethnogenesis is promoted, the stronger is the failure of the promoting government to create well-paid and meaningful jobs.

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

Dear Ataman where is Szemi. He likes too much this kind of posts.
(dori tirana, 2 March 2012 00:03)

He went to inspect a very promising spoon, he, too, works for Tel Aviv but we do not promote that fact being afraid of unpopularity among Albanians

(Ataman, 2 March 2012 11:18)
Very well for Szemi. I see you are working too hard. Normally 2014 is coming. I’m much exited to see live the T-90 tanks that you are promising us. I’ll be in front line with flowers expecting you. Ok I don’t want to loose more your precious time.

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Sam

pre 12 godina

A hodge-podge of different tribes (Asian tribes) are the hungarian, not the romanians.
Romanians live in these places long before the hungarian tribes started their migration from Asia, the same thing is true with the slavic people and the roma.
You got the history all wrong Ataman!

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Kосово срце Србије

pre 12 godina

During history, Romanians and Serbians have been very close. We have a common byzantine tradition. But don't forget that Vlach is the old name of Romanian, given, at first, to the German tribes that have adopted Christian religion and Latin language. The term Vlach is originally an exonym. All the Vlach groups used various words derived from romanus to refer to themselves: Români, Rumâni, Rumâri, Aromâni, Arumâni etc. For more information, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs I hope the serbian-romanian friendship will will.

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Dorin

pre 12 godina

@Trizo,

No offense, but you make a confussion. We are not talking here about immigrants, but of historical communities living in their lands for centuries, side by side with the majority people. So, your sayings are applicable to, let's say, Chinese coming to Serbia or Romania, or Romanians/Serbs/Polish/Albanians etc. going to Canada, Australia or USA.

Life as immigrant is tough, I have friends who left Romania for USA and Canada and they have mixed feelings about their situation.
But a Hungarian born in Romania, a Romanian born in Serbia, a Serb born in Croatia or an Albanian born in Kosovo are not immigrants, but members of their (minority) communities.
And we are talking about EU here, not about Australia, where the Australian Aborigines got the right to vote only in 1962!

@ Fred
Same as above, regarding US case.

Last but not least, nobody here was talking about NOT learning the official language of the country in which the person is living. If you live in Australia or US, then of course you learn English. Same if you live in France, Romania or Serbia - you learn French, Romanian or Serbian (not all three simultaneously, although I know a Serb from Timisoara who speaks perfect Romanian, and also French no worse than me :)

Here, we are talking about keeping the mother tongue for (historical) minority communities, not groups of immigrants (although, if the group grows and they settle, I see no reason for the state to support them in learning and keeping their mother language).

Last but not least, regarding the "democratic record" of countries like US or Australia, I do not remember United Nations proclaming that sun rises from Sydney or Washington (the last ones wo had this ambition were the Soviets, and it did them no good!).

With regards, from Bucharest,
proud to be European, and of Balkans,
and interested more in what Canadians have to say :)
Dorin

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dori tirana

pre 12 godina

@ S. Badescu,
However, it is obvious to me that the history you have been taught regarding ancient and medieval times of the Carpathic Basin is quite different from the one I was taught. It may be the fact that we both learned it during Communism (I am 37 years old :) and I presume you're not younger than me). No reason to fight over history, so let's agree to disagree, OK? :)

The region was inhabited by Thracians (the Daco-Getae being the tribes living North of Danube), from today-Ukraine to the regions inhabited by Illirians (ancestors of Albanians).

(S. Badescu, 1 March 2012 10:43)

I respect your knowledge, but reading the posts of Ataman for several months I know that he will agree to disagree for everything with you, but not for Illyrian origins of Albanians. At this point he is more Serb than Serbs, and generally is more Russian than Russians. He says that despises Albanian folk but he is simultaneously stimulant&victim of hatred Balkan folk.

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S. Badescu

pre 12 godina

@ Dori Tirana

As I said, when we think about ancient times, most of facts are mixed with legend, and we are using (mostly) suppositions. When the time-travel machine will be invented, we will know for sure what happened in this or that day, and who originates from whom. Until then, everybody should take such matters easy, and not make a cause of fight from old, dead things.
Today, what is important is education and economic development. It makes no difference who fought whom 1,000 years ago, over a piece of land. Today, every nation, with the exception of Roma people, have at least a state (I mean a nation-state) as homeland, and minority groups are everywhere, therefore we are in this situation together. The EU construction is useful in setting up the standards for minority protection, and also for political, economical and even cultural co-operation among member states. But, even if tomorrow EU breaks down, the common-sense approach would be to network all the area of Europe (Balkans included) in bilateral and multilateral agreements, making easier the circulation of people, money and goods. The real value of Europe is the human resource and its diversity, in terms of culture and spirituality. Why not to benefit from it, all of us?
We are good as human beings not because of who our ancestors were back then, but due to our actions of today. In 100 years from now, when everybody will speak a sort of Esperanto version of English and passports will be needed only to go to the Moon, the children of our grandchildren will look back and say "Those crazy bastards, they fought and debated so hard among themselves for such trivial things! Thanks God, for that in the end, they build a better world for us, with less famine and bigotry, and more education and happiness". After all, we are all trying to build a better life for us and our kids, isn't so?

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Ataman

pre 12 godina

Dear Ataman where is Szemi. He likes too much this kind of posts.
(dori tirana, 2 March 2012 00:03)

He went to inspect a very promising spoon, he, too, works for Tel Aviv but we do not promote that fact being afraid of unpopularity among Albanians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Go0AmLqTc

Very European, democratic and peaceful.

Sieg - heil, Dori!

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EU Dude

pre 12 godina

"Today, every nation, with the exception of Roma people, have at least a state (I mean a nation-state) as homeland"

S. Badescu,

Sorry old chap, not quite. You forgot the Kurds. Now that the 'Rebels' have fled Homs with their tails between their legs (or as the BBC uncritically quotes their propaganda as "a tactical retreat"), a glorious western military intervention with brave saudi and qatari troops, no doubt holding the koran in one hand and burqa's in the other, to liberate Syria from the evil Assad is no longer possible. For the moment. A torn up Syria would have advanced the possibility of a united Kurdish state as they are practically independent in Iraq and Turkey has yet again failed to treat their own kurds with any respect or rights.

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