Around 98,000 victims of Bosnian war registered so far

"He stated that more than 33,000 Bosniak civilians and 30,000 soldiers were killed in the war, as well as more than 4,000 Serb civilians and almost 21,000 soldiers and 2,100 Croatian civilians and somewhat more than 100 soldiers."

So it was a civil war. A long brutal dirty civil war in which all sides killed everyone else.

The 1990s were very sad dark times. Hopefully we can build a peaceful future together and help our brothers who are still suffering from what happened.

" 2,100 Croatian civilians and somewhat more than 100 soldiers"

Only 100 Croatian soldiers were killed in that war?
Were those guys super-soldiers?

"He stated that more than 33,000 Bosniak civilians and 30,000 soldiers were killed in the war, as well as more than 4,000 Serb civilians and almost 21,000 soldiers and 2,100 Croatian civilians and somewhat more than 100 soldiers."

So here are some precise numbers. I'm sure, it won't take long until the usual suspects come up and claim that all the killed Bosniaks (1/3 of all persons killed) have all been fighters and there were no civilian victims.

And I'm only sure that 'Analyst' would make such a ridiculous claim. Come on genius, who has ever claimed that all dead 'bosniak' civilians were 'soldiers'. It would help if you were honest with yourself first.

Give it up Roberto. You and a few likeminded cafe latte sipping pretentious aristocrats / eurocrats have spent far too long dictating your agenda driven versions of the "truth". I dont buy your continued sensationalist outbursts on this newspaper website.

Time for everyone to learn the truth. It's likely to be ugly on all sides. Only people of strength have the calibre for this discussion.

Once this is acknowledged by all, instead of this continued - "they are worse than us, we are the victims" mentality that you and your ilk portray ad nauseum, we will continue to have the same divisions.

Cao.

This is obviously a lie. The authors want to increase the number of Moslem and Croat civilians killed to show that they were “victims.” Relatively few Serbian civilians are listed as killed while most Serbians are listed as “soldiers.”

The reality is that most people killed in the Bosnian civil war were men with guns in their hands. Civilians were murdered, but most fled; hence the term “ethnic cleansing.” The vast majority of Moslems and Croat deaths were men of fighting age.

Of course most of them were civilians, you cant deny that. What i would like to know is how many were killed by nato bombs? I would bet probably half of them. Although it may have seemed nato had bosnias interest in mind, they really only had their own interests in mind. When you throw in the fact that they control the media, they were afforded the ability to do anything they want in the region. People had to die in order to make Serbs look like the villans, so bombs fell on who ever was in their path, serbs, bosnians, croatians, it didnt matter. as you can see by the chaos in the region today, they did a damn good job. To this day they still ahve everybody in the region believing serbs were attatcking like brutal savages, when really it was defense, and restrained defense at that. This is especially true i nthe case of srebrenica. Srebrenica was ihabited by bosniak refugees, which were not the problem. The problem were the extremist bosniaks who used srebrenica as a hoime base to attack neighboring serb villages. This eventually caused the serb reaction to srebrenica that the west was praying for.
(Ivan, 3 February 2012 15:05)

That comment is a complete joke. He has literally tried to blame half of the casualties of Yugoslav Wars on NATO. Ridiculous.

The most sickening thing is that he has tried to justify the killing of over 8,000 innocent civilians. That is a disgusting thing to do.

Of course most of them were civilians, you cant deny that. What i would like to know is how many were killed by nato bombs? I would bet probably half of them. Although it may have seemed nato had bosnias interest in mind, they really only had their own interests in mind. When you throw in the fact that they control the media, they were afforded the ability to do anything they want in the region. People had to die in order to make Serbs look like the villans, so bombs fell on who ever was in their path, serbs, bosnians, croatians, it didnt matter. as you can see by the chaos in the region today, they did a damn good job. To this day they still ahve everybody in the region believing serbs were attatcking like brutal savages, when really it was defense, and restrained defense at that. This is especially true i nthe case of srebrenica. Srebrenica was ihabited by bosniak refugees, which were not the problem. The problem were the extremist bosniaks who used srebrenica as a hoime base to attack neighboring serb villages. This eventually caused the serb reaction to srebrenica that the west was praying for.

do the statistics and see. I bet you if you could you'd say the Serbs were the victims. the way Serbia sees it. that's purely backwards. everybody knows tho.

rue propaganda.
We all know that over 300 000 were killed due to the Serbian army trying to occupy Bosnia Herzegovina. How can anyone even try to question that?
Ciao!
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 3 February 2012 15:43)

I urge people to stop logging in here and using my name. It is well known that the serbs committed genocide and mass rape in bosnia murdering 1 million people. the blgd regime of tadic and jeremic are lieing. I met cedo today and he told me. Now I am off to court to prevent Dragana from cleaning me out in the alimony.

Dung.
(roberto, frisco, 3 February 2012 16:53)

Do not be late like the last time when the judge got very angry.

Yes Metrod,Croatians are super soldiers and were on there way to liberating all of Bosna
(King Damir, 4 February 2012 19:11)

Your Majesty,

I seem to recall Croatian soldiers being unable to defend Vukovar, and only after years of financial support from the West, as well as a secret agreement with Milosevic who pulled support out of Krajina, was the Croatian army only then able to go on the offensive, which by that point war targeting fleeing civilians instead of seasoned JNA soldiers. As for Croatian soldiers in Bosnia, I also seem to recall their minimal activity focused primarily around Hercegovina, which was more a campaign of terrorizing the Bosnian population similar to the Serbs after Tudjman and Milosevic agreed to carve up Bosnia between them, so whatever you mean by "liberating" can only be "liberating" in the same manner Serbia wanted to. Let's not forget the campaigns in Mostar that left the city ethnically divided as it was today, as well as blowing up the bridge. History has a nasty tendency of being falsely overexaggerated years after its passing, and I'm glad that after 10 - 20 years the Tudjman-era nationalists have been booted from power. They've done enough damage to Croatia as it is.

rue propaganda.
We all know that over 300 000 were killed due to the Serbian army trying to occupy Bosnia Herzegovina. How can anyone even try to question that?
Ciao!
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 3 February 2012 15:43)

I urge people to stop logging in here and using my name. It is well known that the serbs committed genocide and mass rape in bosnia murdering 1 million people. the blgd regime of tadic and jeremic are lieing. I met cedo today and he told me. Now I am off to court to prevent Dragana from cleaning me out in the alimony.

Dung.

And I'm only sure that 'Analyst' would make such a ridiculous claim. Come on genius, who has ever claimed that all dead 'bosniak' civilians were 'soldiers'. It would help if you were honest with yourself first.
(One Born Every Minute, 3 February 2012 14:43)

Not so long ago some of the usual suspects posted a comment here that there was no Srebrenica massacre because the 8000 persons slaughtered by Mladic's troops were fighters, not civilians, and thus legitimate targets - that's what I meant.

So it's good to read the real numbers of soldiers, civilians listed by ethnic groups.

And as it could have been expected, too, there are some others of the usual suspects who claim that even these lower numbers are wrong and only propaganda. Somehow nice that it's all so foreseeable here.

True propaganda.
We all know that over 300 000 were killed due to the Serbian army trying to occupy Bosnia Herzegovina. How can anyone even try to question that?
Ciao!
Roberto from Frisco

Of course it was that. But it was an asymmetric one, as you can see from the number of victims, and from the numbers of civilians killed.
(Comm. Parrisson, 3 February 2012 19:22)

You're never going to get 50:50 in a civil war. How many Royalists vs. Republicans died in Spain? Monarchists vs. ELAS in Greece? Unionists vs. Confederates in the US Civil War? Each side had an aim, each side committed crimes, each side was victimized. The numbers in Bosnia are lopsided, but soldiers and civilians on all sides died at the hands of others. Srebrenica was one part of a larger civil war and needs to be commemorated along with all other acts of aggression.

This is such old news as anyone who has been following this for a long time knows. Tokaca has said essentially the same things in other numerous interviews over the last few years, you can check it simply by searching through the b92 new archives.

Of course there are lies, damned lies & statistics. Context is all, i.e. VRS had at least a 2-to-1 ratio of heavy weapons compared to the ArBih and ArBih had at least twice as many men under arms than the VRS. This has been reported many, many times over the years by UNPROFOR, ex-international generals who have written books and everyone inbetween.

It has also been reported by similar sources that ArBih were poorly organized and poorly lead, Izetbegovic and co preferring 'loyal' generals to competent ones, the former sacrificing thousands of their own soldiers in massed infantry attacks facing heavy artillery, i.e. voluntary euthanasia (look up the ArBih Sarajevo break out of april 1995 for example). Izetbegovic chose war because he falsely believed that the US would intervene very quickly on his side, even though ArBih was hopeless. Ah, but he and his coterie of fundamentalists are never held responsible for their actions.

And some people still don't grasp the gruesome realities of civil war. The figures accurately reflect this.

This is false. This is complete fabrication. 250 000 Bosniaks were killed during de conflict and 100 000 women raped by Serb paramilataries, policemen, militias, soldiers...

WE KNOW BETTER.

"Tokača said that exaggeration in the number of killed, raped and captured persons was a part of the mentality and attempts to make things worse than they were, although, as he put it, they were already inherently dreadful."

He is trying to say that 98,000 is a small number, because it's not. Just One person being killed is one too much.

So it was a civil war. A long brutal dirty civil war in which all sides killed everyone else.
(Balkan Anthropologist, 3 February 2012 14:40)

Of course it was that. But it was an asymmetric one, as you can see from the number of victims, and from the numbers of civilians killed.
(Comm. Parrisson, 3 February 2012 19:22)
Serbs are very able for symmetry. In Kosova for example when the number of Serbs killed is too small they for symmetry of Serbs crimes versus Albanians have invented this story of the removal of organs. Ok we have killed some Albanians but we have not done the horror of removal of organs. For Serbs never exist victim and aggressor. We all are victim and aggressor at the same time. So nothing happen it was all a fair civil war. Second me it was Balkan war. Serbs repeat their history of WWI when they double their territory with war. They militarily were the most powerful nation in Yugoslavia and they hope that with war will enlarge again their territory at the expenses of neighbors. They were successful only in Bosnia. For these reason the Milosevic strategy of ethnic cleansing should never be rewarded with an independent RS. Never if we want no more war in Balkan. If Milosevic strategy will be rewarded the history will repeat and maybe that next time Serbs will be the victim. Think about it.

@mick Even if you were right, which I do not think you are, in saying that the men and boys killed in Srebrenica were soldiers trying to “fight their way out” as I think you put it, still a horrible crime would have been committed, taking into account that thousands of victims were bused to carefully chosen execution sites, summarily executed, buried in mass graves and then re-buried so that parts of a single person are being found scattered around several mass graves. Even if they were all armed soldiers, they enjoyed rights under Geneva Convention as prisoners of war. If you are saying that they were all killed in fighting, than you are disputing well established facts (including confessions by some of the executioners) and debating with you makes no sense.

Yes Metrod,Croatians are super soldiers and were on there way to liberating all of Bosna until President Clinton stopped them under pressure from certain EU countries and Russia who happen to be supporters of the criminal former yugoslavia and serbia. I just wish Croatians were super politicians, but most are just former socialists who are now hiding behind the Grb and who are selling off everything those super soldiers fought to defend. Until the soldiers become the highest ranking politicians,I see former yugos as a bigger enemy than the serb agressor war criminals because the yugos are eating away at the country from within. Much easier to beat down a bully with your fists and kick his ass down the street so he runs home to his mother belgrade crying, than it is beating cancer. It will take maybe another 10 to 20 years before the right people are in power, but by then all the damage has been done and the EU will call all the shots.

This is about the same numbers shown several years ago and hasn't changed, however they are including the MISSING in this total amount. And many of the missing are civilians who aren't necessarily dead or who died of natural causes or other non-war causes - whether in the war era or after.

Also, the fact that a Muslim runs this will definitely be biased towards Serbs and be down-playing their deaths and more apt to make Serbs into soldiers/military when they were not.

For instance, elderly Serb men who had to guard their villages from raids would be termed as military if they had some kind of gun, whereas a Bosniak in such a position will be claimed as a civilian.

And one must not forget that the Bosnian Muslims were known to stage attacks for the camera and for PR-purposes.

UN personnel witnesses Bosnian military killing Muslim civilians and having the Serbs blames. James Davis wrote about it in his book called "The Sharp End" about how the Muslims did kill some (Muslim) children who were out in the street and talking to the Canadian soldiers from the windows of the building they were in.

Additionally you had Fikret Abdic's Muslims who were killed and cleansed by Alija Izetbegovic's forces. The intense Croat-Muslim war.

In addition you had foreign mercenaries who killed civilians in Bosnia and then went back to the homes in the UK and other places. A Scotsman who fought with the Croats even details some of his kills against Serbian and Bosniak civilians. He describes how he shot a woman in her twenties walking towards his position and later learned she was the daughter of a Bosniak commander.

Statistics do not lie, it is very clear. And it is not Good versus Bad or black and white like some want to think. So people like Roberto who are exaggerating numbers, show some statistics to build your claim on then?

And "Ian UK" 8000 civilians? I think you are mistaken, if you are pointing towards Srebrenica then you must also know that all women/children/elderly people left and only guys who could carry guns stayed behind, and the ones who broke out of Srebrenica with aggression might have been killed, more then 5000 Naser oric soldiers left Srebrenica for Tuzla fighting their way out. SO they where soldiers and not civilians!

I would recommend to everyone participating in this discussion to find some additional information about data gathered by the Research and Documentation Center. If you do, you will discover that it is silly to dispute it, including to dispute whether victims counted were soldiers or civilians. The database they had built includes very precise data, including victim's photos, photos of locations where they had been killed - when possible taken at the actual moment when that happened, information about where they are buried (including, I think, the photos of grave site), witness testimonies etc. It is really impressive and I think you can find parts of it online. The number arrived at by the center has been used for years already in media reports, official reports by different national and international organizations etc.

So it was a civil war. A long brutal dirty civil war in which all sides killed everyone else.
(Balkan Anthropologist, 3 February 2012 14:40)

Of course it was that. But it was an asymmetric one, as you can see from the number of victims, and from the numbers of civilians killed.

@mick Even if you were right, which I do not think you are, in saying that the men and boys killed in Srebrenica were soldiers trying to “fight their way out” as I think you put it, still a horrible crime would have been committed, taking into account that thousands of victims were bused to carefully chosen execution sites, summarily executed, buried in mass graves and then re-buried so that parts of a single person are being found scattered around several mass graves. Even if they were all armed soldiers, they enjoyed rights under Geneva Convention as prisoners of war. If you are saying that they were all killed in fighting, than you are disputing well established facts (including confessions by some of the executioners) and debating with you makes no sense.
(niks, 3 February 2012 23:47)

I do not know how the soldiers died, I know it was not genocide otherwise they would not bus out people right?, I also know that these soldiers in srebrenica killed family members of Serb soldiers who came to Srebrenica, Again yes horrible crime, but its not only srebrenica crimes where committed in whole Bosnia and by all sides!

Here check this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuhSGnLvv8&list=LLfK2OT7-0cArVRsNPv0uuyQ&feature=mh_lolz
I think General mladic told one spokesperson there to tell the soldiers of Srebrenica to be unarmed, most didn't disarm and fled to Tuzla and, so where fighting and out of that 8000 number many people fighting where included.

Again this war was made possible by politicians and organizations like CIA who planned the dissolution of YU and making Serbs in number smaller
in 1961 8mil serbs 1991 8mil and if we go back a century austrians even said there where in 1880 around 8 mil serbs including Muslims and Catholics. so as you see the the communists did well do undermine serbs.....
And I am also like you against that war, but what happened happened lets now prevent similar events in the future and promote friendship and love between the former YU member states!

The disproportianate number of Bosniak civilaians killed tells us everything we need to know about what the Serbs did in Bosnia.

"The disproportianate number of Bosniak civilaians killed tells us everything we need to know about what the Serbs did in Bosnia."

No it doesn't because, as I said this is including about 17,000 of the "missing" which are people who sometimes are not even dead or have died from non-war causes.
In addition there was the Croat-Muslim war which caused the deaths of many Muslim civilians (the Croats had the upper hand in Mostar which was left one of the most devastated places in Bosnia by far.)
You also had some Muslim-on-Muslim violence with the independent Muslims of Fikret Abdid who were attacked and cleansed by the Bosnian Muslim government forces.

As well there were MANY set-up and staged attacks the Muslims did on their own people for PR purposes. They set up the Markale massacres and they were also using buildings in Sniper's Alley.
In the few times that the UN forces actually went out to trace the sniper fire, they discovered it was the Muslims, not the Serbs.

I still think the numbers given are over-exaggerating the Muslim deaths - especially the civilians.

It was discovering many of their lies and exaggerations and trying to count, for instance, car accident deaths, as war deaths, which is why the number was more than halved in the first place.
And I bet they didn't catch all of the Muslim cheating and exaggeration because they have been shown to lie and manipulate at every opportunity. I don't believe all their lies/exaggerations/cheating has been caught at all, but at least it has whittled down over 150,000 worth of lies and exaggerations.

"He stated that more than 33,000 Bosniak civilians and 30,000 soldiers were killed in the war, as well as more than 4,000 Serb civilians and almost 21,000 soldiers and 2,100 Croatian civilians and somewhat more than 100 soldiers."

So here are some precise numbers. I'm sure, it won't take long until the usual suspects come up and claim that all the killed Bosniaks (1/3 of all persons killed) have all been fighters and there were no civilian victims.

This is obviously a lie. The authors want to increase the number of Moslem and Croat civilians killed to show that they were “victims.” Relatively few Serbian civilians are listed as killed while most Serbians are listed as “soldiers.”

The reality is that most people killed in the Bosnian civil war were men with guns in their hands. Civilians were murdered, but most fled; hence the term “ethnic cleansing.” The vast majority of Moslems and Croat deaths were men of fighting age.

True propaganda.
We all know that over 300 000 were killed due to the Serbian army trying to occupy Bosnia Herzegovina. How can anyone even try to question that?
Ciao!
Roberto from Frisco

Of course most of them were civilians, you cant deny that. What i would like to know is how many were killed by nato bombs? I would bet probably half of them. Although it may have seemed nato had bosnias interest in mind, they really only had their own interests in mind. When you throw in the fact that they control the media, they were afforded the ability to do anything they want in the region. People had to die in order to make Serbs look like the villans, so bombs fell on who ever was in their path, serbs, bosnians, croatians, it didnt matter. as you can see by the chaos in the region today, they did a damn good job. To this day they still ahve everybody in the region believing serbs were attatcking like brutal savages, when really it was defense, and restrained defense at that. This is especially true i nthe case of srebrenica. Srebrenica was ihabited by bosniak refugees, which were not the problem. The problem were the extremist bosniaks who used srebrenica as a hoime base to attack neighboring serb villages. This eventually caused the serb reaction to srebrenica that the west was praying for.

"He stated that more than 33,000 Bosniak civilians and 30,000 soldiers were killed in the war, as well as more than 4,000 Serb civilians and almost 21,000 soldiers and 2,100 Croatian civilians and somewhat more than 100 soldiers."

So it was a civil war. A long brutal dirty civil war in which all sides killed everyone else.

" 2,100 Croatian civilians and somewhat more than 100 soldiers"

Only 100 Croatian soldiers were killed in that war?
Were those guys super-soldiers?

do the statistics and see. I bet you if you could you'd say the Serbs were the victims. the way Serbia sees it. that's purely backwards. everybody knows tho.

And I'm only sure that 'Analyst' would make such a ridiculous claim. Come on genius, who has ever claimed that all dead 'bosniak' civilians were 'soldiers'. It would help if you were honest with yourself first.

rue propaganda.
We all know that over 300 000 were killed due to the Serbian army trying to occupy Bosnia Herzegovina. How can anyone even try to question that?
Ciao!
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 3 February 2012 15:43)

I urge people to stop logging in here and using my name. It is well known that the serbs committed genocide and mass rape in bosnia murdering 1 million people. the blgd regime of tadic and jeremic are lieing. I met cedo today and he told me. Now I am off to court to prevent Dragana from cleaning me out in the alimony.

Dung.

Of course most of them were civilians, you cant deny that. What i would like to know is how many were killed by nato bombs? I would bet probably half of them. Although it may have seemed nato had bosnias interest in mind, they really only had their own interests in mind. When you throw in the fact that they control the media, they were afforded the ability to do anything they want in the region. People had to die in order to make Serbs look like the villans, so bombs fell on who ever was in their path, serbs, bosnians, croatians, it didnt matter. as you can see by the chaos in the region today, they did a damn good job. To this day they still ahve everybody in the region believing serbs were attatcking like brutal savages, when really it was defense, and restrained defense at that. This is especially true i nthe case of srebrenica. Srebrenica was ihabited by bosniak refugees, which were not the problem. The problem were the extremist bosniaks who used srebrenica as a hoime base to attack neighboring serb villages. This eventually caused the serb reaction to srebrenica that the west was praying for.
(Ivan, 3 February 2012 15:05)

That comment is a complete joke. He has literally tried to blame half of the casualties of Yugoslav Wars on NATO. Ridiculous.

The most sickening thing is that he has tried to justify the killing of over 8,000 innocent civilians. That is a disgusting thing to do.

This is false. This is complete fabrication. 250 000 Bosniaks were killed during de conflict and 100 000 women raped by Serb paramilataries, policemen, militias, soldiers...

WE KNOW BETTER.

This is such old news as anyone who has been following this for a long time knows. Tokaca has said essentially the same things in other numerous interviews over the last few years, you can check it simply by searching through the b92 new archives.

Of course there are lies, damned lies & statistics. Context is all, i.e. VRS had at least a 2-to-1 ratio of heavy weapons compared to the ArBih and ArBih had at least twice as many men under arms than the VRS. This has been reported many, many times over the years by UNPROFOR, ex-international generals who have written books and everyone inbetween.

It has also been reported by similar sources that ArBih were poorly organized and poorly lead, Izetbegovic and co preferring 'loyal' generals to competent ones, the former sacrificing thousands of their own soldiers in massed infantry attacks facing heavy artillery, i.e. voluntary euthanasia (look up the ArBih Sarajevo break out of april 1995 for example). Izetbegovic chose war because he falsely believed that the US would intervene very quickly on his side, even though ArBih was hopeless. Ah, but he and his coterie of fundamentalists are never held responsible for their actions.

And some people still don't grasp the gruesome realities of civil war. The figures accurately reflect this.

So it was a civil war. A long brutal dirty civil war in which all sides killed everyone else.
(Balkan Anthropologist, 3 February 2012 14:40)

Of course it was that. But it was an asymmetric one, as you can see from the number of victims, and from the numbers of civilians killed.
(Comm. Parrisson, 3 February 2012 19:22)
Serbs are very able for symmetry. In Kosova for example when the number of Serbs killed is too small they for symmetry of Serbs crimes versus Albanians have invented this story of the removal of organs. Ok we have killed some Albanians but we have not done the horror of removal of organs. For Serbs never exist victim and aggressor. We all are victim and aggressor at the same time. So nothing happen it was all a fair civil war. Second me it was Balkan war. Serbs repeat their history of WWI when they double their territory with war. They militarily were the most powerful nation in Yugoslavia and they hope that with war will enlarge again their territory at the expenses of neighbors. They were successful only in Bosnia. For these reason the Milosevic strategy of ethnic cleansing should never be rewarded with an independent RS. Never if we want no more war in Balkan. If Milosevic strategy will be rewarded the history will repeat and maybe that next time Serbs will be the victim. Think about it.

Yes Metrod,Croatians are super soldiers and were on there way to liberating all of Bosna
(King Damir, 4 February 2012 19:11)

Your Majesty,

I seem to recall Croatian soldiers being unable to defend Vukovar, and only after years of financial support from the West, as well as a secret agreement with Milosevic who pulled support out of Krajina, was the Croatian army only then able to go on the offensive, which by that point war targeting fleeing civilians instead of seasoned JNA soldiers. As for Croatian soldiers in Bosnia, I also seem to recall their minimal activity focused primarily around Hercegovina, which was more a campaign of terrorizing the Bosnian population similar to the Serbs after Tudjman and Milosevic agreed to carve up Bosnia between them, so whatever you mean by "liberating" can only be "liberating" in the same manner Serbia wanted to. Let's not forget the campaigns in Mostar that left the city ethnically divided as it was today, as well as blowing up the bridge. History has a nasty tendency of being falsely overexaggerated years after its passing, and I'm glad that after 10 - 20 years the Tudjman-era nationalists have been booted from power. They've done enough damage to Croatia as it is.

Yes Metrod,Croatians are super soldiers and were on there way to liberating all of Bosna until President Clinton stopped them under pressure from certain EU countries and Russia who happen to be supporters of the criminal former yugoslavia and serbia. I just wish Croatians were super politicians, but most are just former socialists who are now hiding behind the Grb and who are selling off everything those super soldiers fought to defend. Until the soldiers become the highest ranking politicians,I see former yugos as a bigger enemy than the serb agressor war criminals because the yugos are eating away at the country from within. Much easier to beat down a bully with your fists and kick his ass down the street so he runs home to his mother belgrade crying, than it is beating cancer. It will take maybe another 10 to 20 years before the right people are in power, but by then all the damage has been done and the EU will call all the shots.

Give it up Roberto. You and a few likeminded cafe latte sipping pretentious aristocrats / eurocrats have spent far too long dictating your agenda driven versions of the "truth". I dont buy your continued sensationalist outbursts on this newspaper website.

Time for everyone to learn the truth. It's likely to be ugly on all sides. Only people of strength have the calibre for this discussion.

Once this is acknowledged by all, instead of this continued - "they are worse than us, we are the victims" mentality that you and your ilk portray ad nauseum, we will continue to have the same divisions.

Cao.

rue propaganda.
We all know that over 300 000 were killed due to the Serbian army trying to occupy Bosnia Herzegovina. How can anyone even try to question that?
Ciao!
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 3 February 2012 15:43)

I urge people to stop logging in here and using my name. It is well known that the serbs committed genocide and mass rape in bosnia murdering 1 million people. the blgd regime of tadic and jeremic are lieing. I met cedo today and he told me. Now I am off to court to prevent Dragana from cleaning me out in the alimony.

Dung.
(roberto, frisco, 3 February 2012 16:53)

Do not be late like the last time when the judge got very angry.

Statistics do not lie, it is very clear. And it is not Good versus Bad or black and white like some want to think. So people like Roberto who are exaggerating numbers, show some statistics to build your claim on then?

And "Ian UK" 8000 civilians? I think you are mistaken, if you are pointing towards Srebrenica then you must also know that all women/children/elderly people left and only guys who could carry guns stayed behind, and the ones who broke out of Srebrenica with aggression might have been killed, more then 5000 Naser oric soldiers left Srebrenica for Tuzla fighting their way out. SO they where soldiers and not civilians!

So it was a civil war. A long brutal dirty civil war in which all sides killed everyone else.
(Balkan Anthropologist, 3 February 2012 14:40)

Of course it was that. But it was an asymmetric one, as you can see from the number of victims, and from the numbers of civilians killed.

@mick Even if you were right, which I do not think you are, in saying that the men and boys killed in Srebrenica were soldiers trying to “fight their way out” as I think you put it, still a horrible crime would have been committed, taking into account that thousands of victims were bused to carefully chosen execution sites, summarily executed, buried in mass graves and then re-buried so that parts of a single person are being found scattered around several mass graves. Even if they were all armed soldiers, they enjoyed rights under Geneva Convention as prisoners of war. If you are saying that they were all killed in fighting, than you are disputing well established facts (including confessions by some of the executioners) and debating with you makes no sense.
(niks, 3 February 2012 23:47)

I do not know how the soldiers died, I know it was not genocide otherwise they would not bus out people right?, I also know that these soldiers in srebrenica killed family members of Serb soldiers who came to Srebrenica, Again yes horrible crime, but its not only srebrenica crimes where committed in whole Bosnia and by all sides!

Here check this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuhSGnLvv8&list=LLfK2OT7-0cArVRsNPv0uuyQ&feature=mh_lolz
I think General mladic told one spokesperson there to tell the soldiers of Srebrenica to be unarmed, most didn't disarm and fled to Tuzla and, so where fighting and out of that 8000 number many people fighting where included.

Again this war was made possible by politicians and organizations like CIA who planned the dissolution of YU and making Serbs in number smaller
in 1961 8mil serbs 1991 8mil and if we go back a century austrians even said there where in 1880 around 8 mil serbs including Muslims and Catholics. so as you see the the communists did well do undermine serbs.....
And I am also like you against that war, but what happened happened lets now prevent similar events in the future and promote friendship and love between the former YU member states!

Of course it was that. But it was an asymmetric one, as you can see from the number of victims, and from the numbers of civilians killed.
(Comm. Parrisson, 3 February 2012 19:22)

You're never going to get 50:50 in a civil war. How many Royalists vs. Republicans died in Spain? Monarchists vs. ELAS in Greece? Unionists vs. Confederates in the US Civil War? Each side had an aim, each side committed crimes, each side was victimized. The numbers in Bosnia are lopsided, but soldiers and civilians on all sides died at the hands of others. Srebrenica was one part of a larger civil war and needs to be commemorated along with all other acts of aggression.

This is about the same numbers shown several years ago and hasn't changed, however they are including the MISSING in this total amount. And many of the missing are civilians who aren't necessarily dead or who died of natural causes or other non-war causes - whether in the war era or after.

Also, the fact that a Muslim runs this will definitely be biased towards Serbs and be down-playing their deaths and more apt to make Serbs into soldiers/military when they were not.

For instance, elderly Serb men who had to guard their villages from raids would be termed as military if they had some kind of gun, whereas a Bosniak in such a position will be claimed as a civilian.

And one must not forget that the Bosnian Muslims were known to stage attacks for the camera and for PR-purposes.

UN personnel witnesses Bosnian military killing Muslim civilians and having the Serbs blames. James Davis wrote about it in his book called "The Sharp End" about how the Muslims did kill some (Muslim) children who were out in the street and talking to the Canadian soldiers from the windows of the building they were in.

Additionally you had Fikret Abdic's Muslims who were killed and cleansed by Alija Izetbegovic's forces. The intense Croat-Muslim war.

In addition you had foreign mercenaries who killed civilians in Bosnia and then went back to the homes in the UK and other places. A Scotsman who fought with the Croats even details some of his kills against Serbian and Bosniak civilians. He describes how he shot a woman in her twenties walking towards his position and later learned she was the daughter of a Bosniak commander.

The disproportianate number of Bosniak civilaians killed tells us everything we need to know about what the Serbs did in Bosnia.

And I'm only sure that 'Analyst' would make such a ridiculous claim. Come on genius, who has ever claimed that all dead 'bosniak' civilians were 'soldiers'. It would help if you were honest with yourself first.
(One Born Every Minute, 3 February 2012 14:43)

Not so long ago some of the usual suspects posted a comment here that there was no Srebrenica massacre because the 8000 persons slaughtered by Mladic's troops were fighters, not civilians, and thus legitimate targets - that's what I meant.

So it's good to read the real numbers of soldiers, civilians listed by ethnic groups.

And as it could have been expected, too, there are some others of the usual suspects who claim that even these lower numbers are wrong and only propaganda. Somehow nice that it's all so foreseeable here.

"Tokača said that exaggeration in the number of killed, raped and captured persons was a part of the mentality and attempts to make things worse than they were, although, as he put it, they were already inherently dreadful."

He is trying to say that 98,000 is a small number, because it's not. Just One person being killed is one too much.

@mick Even if you were right, which I do not think you are, in saying that the men and boys killed in Srebrenica were soldiers trying to “fight their way out” as I think you put it, still a horrible crime would have been committed, taking into account that thousands of victims were bused to carefully chosen execution sites, summarily executed, buried in mass graves and then re-buried so that parts of a single person are being found scattered around several mass graves. Even if they were all armed soldiers, they enjoyed rights under Geneva Convention as prisoners of war. If you are saying that they were all killed in fighting, than you are disputing well established facts (including confessions by some of the executioners) and debating with you makes no sense.

I would recommend to everyone participating in this discussion to find some additional information about data gathered by the Research and Documentation Center. If you do, you will discover that it is silly to dispute it, including to dispute whether victims counted were soldiers or civilians. The database they had built includes very precise data, including victim's photos, photos of locations where they had been killed - when possible taken at the actual moment when that happened, information about where they are buried (including, I think, the photos of grave site), witness testimonies etc. It is really impressive and I think you can find parts of it online. The number arrived at by the center has been used for years already in media reports, official reports by different national and international organizations etc.

The 1990s were very sad dark times. Hopefully we can build a peaceful future together and help our brothers who are still suffering from what happened.

"The disproportianate number of Bosniak civilaians killed tells us everything we need to know about what the Serbs did in Bosnia."

No it doesn't because, as I said this is including about 17,000 of the "missing" which are people who sometimes are not even dead or have died from non-war causes.
In addition there was the Croat-Muslim war which caused the deaths of many Muslim civilians (the Croats had the upper hand in Mostar which was left one of the most devastated places in Bosnia by far.)
You also had some Muslim-on-Muslim violence with the independent Muslims of Fikret Abdid who were attacked and cleansed by the Bosnian Muslim government forces.

As well there were MANY set-up and staged attacks the Muslims did on their own people for PR purposes. They set up the Markale massacres and they were also using buildings in Sniper's Alley.
In the few times that the UN forces actually went out to trace the sniper fire, they discovered it was the Muslims, not the Serbs.

I still think the numbers given are over-exaggerating the Muslim deaths - especially the civilians.

It was discovering many of their lies and exaggerations and trying to count, for instance, car accident deaths, as war deaths, which is why the number was more than halved in the first place.
And I bet they didn't catch all of the Muslim cheating and exaggeration because they have been shown to lie and manipulate at every opportunity. I don't believe all their lies/exaggerations/cheating has been caught at all, but at least it has whittled down over 150,000 worth of lies and exaggerations.