"Kosovo must be represented under 1244"

Not so much to argue about really. Kosovo is not a country, its a province to most of nations and people. How could a province be represented at international gatherings ?
Just say NO. Its prevented until the end of times with 1244. Period.

There will be no asymmetrical representation clown. Why should Serbia be allowed to represented as Serbia but Kosovo be forced to take up some dead and gone resolution name?

Sincerely,

Negotiator: Kosovo must be represented under 1244


Why? Because Serbia cannot afford anymore to be left out in the regional events?

I think Serbia needs a new negotiator.
"He noted that those requests were not as brutal as during Slobodan Milošević's time"
Does he really think anyone would believe that there was pressure on Serbia to give up 1244 during Milosevic. 1244 was enacted to force Serbia out of Kosovo, and remove any and all control. Until somewhere around 2007 when someone was able to fool Serbs into thinking that 1244 guaranteed that Kosovo was a part of Serbia, Serbia denounced 1244 with every breath.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 allows for hundreds but not thousands of Serbian Police and soldiers to return to Kosovo, and that that means 1,999 Serbian Police and soldiers can see to it that a Referendum in Northern Kosovo can be delayed for a while, as North Kosovo will join Serbia, and South Kosovo will continue to be Serbian Territory.
(Yet Another J S, 25 January 2012 13:01)
You live in your own little world don't you. The Stosk is not worth the time to rebutte.
The number of police which is less than 1000 (number accepted by everyone) not less than 2000 are not permitted to do any police or military functions. They are allowed to demine fields, act as liasons(interpreters) maintain a PRESENCE at key border crossings and patrimonial sites, notice that does not say control or guard.
The reason it was never acted on is what was the use. You would have 0 chance of getting it approved now 12 years later.

There are People who think that a good way to allow the Majority Albanian Areas in South Kosovo to be represented in regional forums, is under the name of Serbian Territory Of South Kosovo, or STOSK, and that a United Nations Security Council Resolution be made for this after both Parties agree.

North Kosovo should not be included in this matter, and needs to be a negotiated agreement to agree on the Reality on the Ground as of December 31 2001, on where those Majority Albanian Areas in South Kosovo are, and where the Majority Serbian Areas in South Kosovo are, and that should be fixed for the next 15 years, before any new mutual agreement can be made as to what Territory can or should be defined or redefined as STOSK.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 allows for hundreds but not thousands of Serbian Police and soldiers to return to Kosovo, and that that means 1,999 Serbian Police and soldiers can see to it that a Referendum in Northern Kosovo can be delayed for a while, as North Kosovo will join Serbia, and South Kosovo will continue to be Serbian Territory.

"Here, Macedonia has been putting up with the fact that the former Yugoslav republic is written for 15 years, then the EU must accept the argument that Kosovo must have the markings of the Resolution 1244, which is in effect and it says in all the EU documents,” he pointed out."

Considering the fact that Serbia recognize the name "Rep. of Macedonia", this argument gets a very funny taste. Oh Stefanovic..

Cheers!

"Macedonia has been putting up with the fact that the former Yugoslav republic is written for 15 years". Two wrongs do not make things right. How many years has been international community putting up with Serbia which even took it to war until it lost it.

I know im out of the thematic here, but realy im very courious about something. I visited Belgrade some weeks ago and i enjoyed a really great time in Serbia. First i was a little afraid, of your behaviour towards an albanian in Serbia (of course, i know before i was going in a civilised country, this is why i came), but i found the welcome agreable. Now, whats my point. I read every day the comments in the hot topics of b-92, and i see so much hate towards kosovo albanians. My question are:
1. Does an average serb differentiate albania from Kosovo or albanians are the same for you?
2. What's the perception about Republic of Albania (not Kosovo) in serbia
3. Will you chose to visit Albania if you had such an opportunity?
4. Why you think albania is an largely muslim country? (only 4% of populations goes regulary in churches and mosque. I am orthodox for example)

Thank you for reading and commenting me. Really, nice Kalamegdan and caffe Moscow in a very beatiful town, Belgrade

"Here, Macedonia has been putting up with the fact that the former Yugoslav republic is written for 15 years, then the EU must accept the argument that Kosovo must have the markings of the Resolution 1244, which is in effect and it says in all the EU documents,” he pointed out."

Kosovo should be represented as "FYSPOK (UN1244)" - Former Yugoslav Serbian Province of Kosovo (according to UN 1244)

Staff

Interesting. let's see, Kosova enacts its own laws, it has its own police force, collect its own taxes...and is totally and UTTERLY free of Serbia's jurisdiction. It sure sounds like a country to me. no 1244, that is over

Without 1244 Serbia is the legal government of Kosovo.

Without 1244 the international community has no right to stop Serbia defending its land.

As long as Serbia does not break humanitarian law and the laws of war (as was often the case under Milosevic) without 1244 the international community does not have the right to stop the Serbian army controlling the territory again.

If 1244 is derogated Serbia could reenter tomorrow and it would be illegal for the international community to stop it because it would not have legal cause to go against Serbia on its own land - as properly documented in previous agreements.

A udi is not illegal, but neither is it legal unless it is agreed to by Serbia.

I suggest that we all accept 1244, put it on the sign, and leave it at that.

As long as Serbia does not break humanitarian law and the laws of war (as was often the case under Milosevic)
(Bob)

Are you sure it was/is possible to fight against such people as the KLA without breaking humanitarian law and the laws of war? What should one do against the provocators who shoot at police and then hide among civilians?

suggest that we all accept 1244, put it on the sign, and leave it at that.
(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)
I agree with most of your post except the part about the international community not being able to be in Kosovo legally. The 86 or so countries that have recognized Kosovo can and the major powers will at the request of what they perceive as a sovereign country intervene on their behalf. Of course before 1244 would be dissolved in the UNSC that portion would be guaranteed.

I agree it should be Kosovo that is waving the 1244 banner proudly and every Serb should be embarassed to say the numbers, ever who sold them this bill of goods that it is a pro Serbian document is a very good salesman, they could probably Mink coat to a PETA activist.

The 86 or so countries that have recognized Kosovo can and the major powers will at the request of what they perceive as a sovereign country intervene on their behalf.
(pss)

It will be promising scenario for future WW - countries which recognized Kosovo intervene on behalf of Kosovo and countries which didn't recognize Kosovo intervene on behalf of Serbia... :) :(

Tell your people in Serbia that Kosovo is lost.
(Altin)

But
1) KSerbs are loyal to Serbia, not "Kosovo"
2) The majority of the world countries haven't recognized Kosovo state.
3) 2 permanent members of UNSC haven't recognized Kosovo state.
4) 5 EU members haven't recognized Kosovo state.

Why can not the Serbian government wake up and stop lying his people.
Tell your people in Serbia that Kosovo is lost.
All Serbs are welcome to celebrate Kosovo's independence on February 17.

Those who have problems to recognize Kosovo is lost, you can come to visit Kosova at gazimestan where you usually strange but true celebration of your lost war.

War solves nothing.

"do you know that Kosovar Albanian students were barred, BARRED from being educated in university buildings?"

(Nikolle, are you adriatik?)

I read that Kosovo Albanian schools/universities practiced their own syllabus (actually anti YU/Serbian), so the logic was why should Albanians use state property(school buildings) to teach according to anti-state syllabus?

The west would have supported this autonomy if Serbia would have showed any good faith during the negotiations.
(pss)

What should Serbia have done during the negotiations in order to keep Kosovo as Serbian province in your opinion?

Rambullete implied independence for Kosovo in 3 years, that's what Albanians were promised by the West from the very beginning regardless of what Serbia would or wouldn't show.

I think Serbia needs a new negotiator.
"He noted that those requests were not as brutal as during Slobodan Milošević's time"
Does he really think anyone would believe that there was pressure on Serbia to give up 1244 during Milosevic. 1244 was enacted to force Serbia out of Kosovo, and remove any and all control. Until somewhere around 2007 when someone was able to fool Serbs into thinking that 1244 guaranteed that Kosovo was a part of Serbia, Serbia denounced 1244 with every breath.
(a New Day, 25 January 2012 16:18)

You made some very good points. However, Serbs, when it is to their advantage, conveniently forget what they accepted yesterday, let alone what they agreed to in the distant past. That is why the USA and the EU are feed up with Serbia's nonsense and will now do whatever is necessary to bring stability to the region. The Serbs can choose to pursue the path to the EU and NATO or not, in either case it will be without Kosovo. The ground work is now being established for Kosovo to join NATO and then the EU. The Serbs can ruminate forever as far as the West and the Kosovars are concerned. "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on".

I guess that was the reson why Russians left Kosovo, though I am not sure it was good decision (to leave kosovo that is).
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 14:57)

They left because they couldn't pay their bills anymmore. Welcome to reality!

Are you serious? Russia supported/support peacekeepers in several places, not only in Kosovo, and somehow has money for it.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 16:21)

You are free to believe whatever you want.

It will be promising scenario for future WW - countries which recognized Kosovo intervene on behalf of Kosovo and countries which didn't recognize Kosovo intervene on behalf of Serbia... :) :(
(aaayyy, 25 January 2012 23:40
Oh you mean like happened in 1999??? Dream on, dream on!

I know im out of the thematic here, but realy im very courious about something. I visited Belgrade some weeks ago and i enjoyed a really great time in Serbia. First i was a little afraid, of your behaviour towards an albanian in Serbia (of course, i know before i was going in a civilised country, this is why i came), but i found the welcome agreable. Now, whats my point. I read every day the comments in the hot topics of b-92, and i see so much hate towards kosovo albanians. My question are:
1. Does an average serb differentiate albania from Kosovo or albanians are the same for you?
2. What's the perception about Republic of Albania (not Kosovo) in serbia
3. Will you chose to visit Albania if you had such an opportunity?
4. Why you think albania is an largely muslim country? (only 4% of populations goes regulary in churches and mosque. I am orthodox for example)

Thank you for reading and commenting me. Really, nice Kalamegdan and caffe Moscow in a very beatiful town, Belgrade
(Tirana 24 year old, 25 January 2012 19:56)

Very, very good comment, friendly and refreshing :)))

"A udi is not illegal, but neither is it legal unless it is agreed to by Serbia. ...

(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)

You're confusing two definitions of "legality." Under international law, a "UDI" is not illegal, whether or not the country being left agrees to it - because international law does not govern such matters. It's up to third countries to decided whether they consider the new country independent or not - it's a right of sovereign nations. Under Serbian law, of course, it is illegal, but Serbian law only applies in Serbia.

Thank you for reading and commenting me. Really, nice Kalamegdan and caffe Moscow in a very beatiful town, Belgrade
(Tirana 24 year old, 25 January 2012 19:56)
=========================

While you are reading those comments of hate towards K-Albanians do you also happen to read the comments of hate from K-Albanians?
It's very difficult not to respond in kind when you are faced daily with sarcasm, threats and hate so perhaps you should also be asking the same questions from them.

The short answer is no, there is no hate towards Albanian population in general but there is plenty toward KLA sympathizers, Thaci diffenders and plenty of negative feeling about Albanians posting here who do nothing more than provoke. If you were in Serbia then you would've noticed many different ethnic groups living there in peace. That should tell you all you need to know about how Serbs feel towards different groups.

There will be no asymmetrical representation clown. Why should Serbia be allowed to represented as Serbia but Kosovo be forced to take up some dead and gone resolution name?

Sincerely,
(KOSO, 25 January 2012 15:21)
=========================

Why? Because it was agreed that it was going to be represented by UN or don't agreements mean anything to you?
BTW, 1244 is not gone. If it were gone then it must've been abolished officially or replaced by another resolution. Can you tell me which one it was and when?

to be fair Peggy, Serbs still have not come to the realization that keeping Kosovo comes hand in hand with keeping the Albanians who live there. you will not get the territory without the people. what does that mean? well, equal rights in EVERYTHING and i do mean absolutely EVERYTHING. long term, an Albanian who can run to become President of Serbia and choose his own cabinet. what people conveniently forget is that in Kosovo (if we now think in terms of Serbia's constitution i.e. still a part of Serbia), Serbia has a very LARGE and significant number of Albanians, 1.8 mill in number and growing. ignoring them, as was done in the 90's and worse, did not get you anything. so allow me to ask you, (as a Serb living ins Australia) are you prepared to have a Kosovar Albanian run your country? you see, no Serb I know will EVER countenance that. allow me to ask you another question: do you think the Albanians were lying about their plight and were the massacres faked? you see, do some soul searching before coming here and describing a tolerant image of Serbia that so betrays reality

The justification for the bombing was humanitarian - it was not justified as an invasion of Serbian territory with a consequent land grab.
(Bob)

I am afraid real motivation for the bombing was the land grab from the very beginning - Thaci didn't want to sign the Rambulette accord since it didn't provide Kosovo independence right after the war (speaks a lot about hunanitarian intensions), but he was talked to do it and wait a little bit. But independence was promised to him long ago.

Nikolle

Congratulations on your great intelligence. I just point out that my friends, who are the nicest and most peaceful people you could ever know, we're forced out of Kosovo long before the Milosevic era, by Albanians who made their life there totally impossible. They feel betrayed by their Albanian neighbours who complied with pressure from separatist Albanians to stop trading with their Serb neighbours and to do everything to make their lives unbareable.

I also point out that the very term ethnic cleansing is said to originate with the policy of the Albanian communist party in Kosovo long before Milosevic.

pss - please read 1244 and find the words 'udi' (if you can), and take on board the face value of the reaffirmations at the beginning. I am sure that the writers were using weasel words to try to leave space for a udi - but why didn't they just write that in if that was the specific intention of the resolution?

I think the weasel words failed. What you will find in 1244 are the words 'political settlement' - and that will not occur without Serbia's agreement - therefore the phrases 'substantial autonomy' still apply and will continue to apply. That (in my understanding) is why Serbia does have a case that some of the international community would wish to answer but cannot - and why they attempt to use other rough-hand political tactics to achieve acceptance of this new racistly motivated mistake of a second Albanian state.

As to who exactly signed which bits of paper - I leave that to you.

Kosovo is not a sovereign country - it is part of Serbia. This is long established in international agreements.

The justification for the bombing was humanitarian - it was not justified as an invasion of Serbian territory with a consequent land grab.

The Albanian land grab is racially motivated - Serbia is a much more multiethnic country in its structure and in its thinking.
It is wrong of the international community to reward the policy of ethnic cleansing that the Albanians have pursued against Serbs since long before Milosevic. Decent peaceful Serbs were driven out by Albanians - that in itself is sufficient to say that this so called udi should never have been encouraged or accepted by anyone. I detested Milosevic's politics, but I detest the racist ambition that is represented by Albanians in Kosovo even more. For years Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slovenians, were paying into Kosovo to subsidise it, and instead of 'Brotherhood and Unity' the Albanians gave them a kick in the face. It is not as if there is not already a country called Albania - this is just spread into adjoining territory.

The UN resolution 1244 makes it quite clear - the final status for Kosovo is autonomy.

Serbia can legally impose legal autonomy on Kosovo within 1244!! Why not just label the current administration as 'the representatives of autonomous Kosovo under 1244'. The udi is spurious as currently Kosovo is governed as a protectorate.

Without 1244 there is no requirement for autonomy - Serbia is the government.

1244 was signed under duress - that in itself makes its legality questionable. Be glad if Serbia goes along with it.

How about Serbia recognises Manchester as a separate country - let's get 88 countries to recognise and then does that make it legal? No it does not.

-----------

On the matter of war crimes. Unfortunately Milosevic never intended that substantial efforts be made to protect civilians or that the fighting should be done under the international rules. War is a nasty affair anyway, but the rules do give some level of protection - to disregard them is unnecessary. More to the point it is politically inept. Many posters on this site try to make it look as if NATO is committing war crimes to somehow justify the things that were done wrongly in Bosnia. That is usually much harder to prove than it was with the Bosnian war in particular, when war crimes such as shelling civilian areas of a city were actively perpetrated in front of the TV cameras and when Karadic and Mladic (for example) were openly scornful of international opinion and pressure. The point is that (whether or not they fully succeed) NATO and others make an effort to keep to the law - the forces in Bosnia made NO real effort and in general fought very dishonourably. Criminality took over, and lots of things took place that did not help the conflict and which alienated Serbia in the eyes of the world; for that reason I label those law breakers as traitors to Serbia - they did a lot of harm to Serbia's good name. The international community had no trust in Milosevic and so intervened in Kosovo. The intervention was not without some justification, but it should not have been finished as a land grab - the solution should be one that brings all parties to a peaceful conclusion not one that rewards the racism of Albanians against Serbs (or vice versa come to that).

It will be promising scenario for future WW - countries which recognized Kosovo intervene on behalf of Kosovo and countries which didn't recognize Kosovo intervene on behalf of Serbia... :) :(
(aaayyy, 25 January 2012 23:40
Oh you mean like happened in 1999??? Dream on, dream on!
(pss, 26 January 2012 00:12)

Once you were given in, but don't think it will last forever...
It's strange that you don't want to think about reasonable compromise, instead you only want to rely on foreign powers.
"A state" which relies only on foreign powers isn't stable one.

"A state" which relies only on foreign powers isn't stable one.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 11:13)

Like Serbia that relies exclusively on Russia's support?

On the matter of war crimes. Unfortunately Milosevic never intended that substantial efforts be made to protect civilians or that the fighting should be done under the international rules.
(Bob, 26 January 2012 10:33)

You are absolutely right on it, but on the other hand did NATO/KFOR show in Kosovo how to supress the KLA and keep Serbian population in Kosovo without touching Albanian civilians? No, they didn't. If they had done it they would have rights to say: "See, you couldn't do it, your Milosevic couldn't do it, while we can, so we have moral rights to occupy Kosovo for some time". Instead during KFOR occupation 100000+ KSerbs had to leave Kosovo, thousands are killed or missing and ghettorization of Kosovo is under way. All of this is pure KFOR responsibility.

...equal rights in EVERYTHING and i do mean absolutely EVERYTHING. long term, an Albanian who can run to become President of Serbia and choose his own cabinet.
(Nikolle, 26 January 2012 10:57)

Didn't Tadic say something like that? Also he proposed a lot of compromise solutions, but all of them were rejected, the only solution suitable for Prishtina and the West is that ALL of Kosovo is taken from Serbia forever without any influence allowed.

Instead during KFOR occupation 100000+ KSerbs had to leave Kosovo, thousands are killed or missing and ghettorization of Kosovo is under way. All of this is pure KFOR responsibility.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 13:35)

Russia was part of KFOR, forgotten?
(bbbzzz, 26 January 2012 13:56)

Russia had a handful of peacekeepers, who had to serve under NATO command, were placed in Albanian populated areas. BTW once Albanians didn't let Russian peacekeepers go to the location of their service, by blocking roads, building barricades and placing women/children on them. as far as I know Russians never went there.

NATO/KFOR commanders made scenarious to push Russian peacekeepers to the conflict with KSerbs, while preventing their own troops from conflicts with KAlbanians. I guess that was the reson why Russians left Kosovo, though I am not sure it was good decision (to leave kosovo that is).

Bob you have many many errors in your post. Try some research. 1244 leaves status of Kosovo open no where does it imply that the goal is autonomy. It does say that the purpose is for Kosovo to enjoy autonomy within Yugoslavia until status is settled. The west would have supported this autonomy if Serbia would have showed any good faith during the negotiations. Serbia only started shouting "more than autonomy less than independence" after it was determined the Kosovo authorities planned to UDI and the west would support it, long after talks ended.
Serbia did not sign 1244 under duress, Serbia never signed 1244, Serbia was not consulted on 1244. Serbia signed Kumanovo agreement. Under Duress?? I think you could say that EVERY agreement to end a war was signed under duress. They have all been held as valid.
As far as Serbia being more multiethnic society, is a laugh at best, you TOLERATE others as long as they do nothing to buck the Serbian way of life, you make no effort to incorporate them into Serbian society, that is the definition of multiethnic.
As far as the finish to the war being a landgrab. You say under 1244 Kosovo is a Serbian province if you believe that then how can you say the goal was a landgrab. Further read the Rambouillet accords on what the west was originally proposing. It envisioned Yugoslavia being essential 3 parts Serbia, Montenegro, and Kosovo pretty much the same as pre Milosevic with the exception of some further guarantees for Kosovo freedom, and then a settlement on status.
All these proposals and plans depended on one element that was never there. Some type of efforts from Serbia to assure the peace and safety of the Kosovo people and some type of guarantee that Serbia would not interfere in the autonomous govt of Kosovo. Can you name one action Serbia did that would come close to addressing that issue. All of Serbias efforts have been to retain the land. After Kosovo was lost Serbia came up with the phrase more than autonomy less than independence but have you ever seen anything that explains what is meant by that?

I guess that was the reson why Russians left Kosovo, though I am not sure it was good decision (to leave kosovo that is).
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 14:57)

They left because they couldn't pay their bills anymmore. Welcome to reality!
(bbbzzz, 26 January 2012 15:15)

Are you serious? Russia supported/support peacekeepers in several places, not only in Kosovo, and somehow has money for it.

Bob

There is no doubt to my mind Bob that you seriously believe your fairy tail. Rather than me going back and forth, read ALL statistics on Kosovo from 1960's, you will see the Serbian population there increased. What did fall is their make up of the total, which is down to the high Albanian birthrate. Do not come here and tell me fictional stories, I won't have. I was born, grew up and still live in Kosovo, so preach to others who are ready to buy your tales

Nikolle

So you choose not to see that when my friends lives became impossible they had to leave Kosovo.

That is no fairy tail.

You attempt a counter argument instead.

Apply your intelligence for a moment - for example, maybe numbers do increase but in ever smaller areas. I am not necessarily saying that is what happened, but it does show that your argument about numbers does not counter the case.

Can I assume that you would welcome my friends back - with all their friends - and that you would actively defend them against any Albanians who would choose to attack them? Would you do business with them and talk to them in the street even though some other Albanian may attack you and ostracise you (or worse) for doing so?

I very much doubt it.

Can you really look to your heart and say that you would?

I bet that you are glad that they have gone!

I would welcome that you would say that I am wrong on this - and we can then arrange to test your assertion in practice.

Bob

No doubt in my mind that your story is a fairy tale, or your friends have been lying to you. Answer me, when did this happen? You see, what I base my reasoning on is hard core data, Serbia's own statistics show that the Serb population in Kosovo increased from the 1950's onwards. What did rise at an even higher rate is that of the Albanians, which is attributed to their hight birthrate. Do not take my word for it, read statistcs. So, taking all of that in mind, if, as you keep saying there was pressure on the Serb populacew, why did their number not dwindle? that is why i say you're telling me a fairy tale

Without 1244 Serbia is the legal government of Kosovo.

Without 1244 the international community has no right to stop Serbia defending its land.

As long as Serbia does not break humanitarian law and the laws of war (as was often the case under Milosevic) without 1244 the international community does not have the right to stop the Serbian army controlling the territory again.

If 1244 is derogated Serbia could reenter tomorrow and it would be illegal for the international community to stop it because it would not have legal cause to go against Serbia on its own land - as properly documented in previous agreements.

A udi is not illegal, but neither is it legal unless it is agreed to by Serbia.

I suggest that we all accept 1244, put it on the sign, and leave it at that.
(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)


Bob,

All your arguments above are moot. (No pun intended.)

What counts is the reality on the ground.

Everyone, including the Serbs, understands this.

Any intervention on the part of Serbia would be even more disastrous for her than in 1999.

Bob

apparently the whole thing in Kosova was a racially motivated affair by one people (who funnily enough were never in charge) against another more powerful group who controlled the police, the army, passed legislation ad so on and so forth. that is the problem right there, people seriously, SERIOUSLY, believe that the whole war was an attempt to rid Kosova of Serbs. nonsense. have you actually ever read anything on the issue? do you know that Kosovar Albanian students were barred, BARRED from being educated in university buildings? do you know that an Albanian was not allowed to purchase property or land from a Serb (it was actually a law in the time of Milosevic, you know, the one Serbs chose as their leader)? do keep writing however, as reading garbage now and again only fills me with satisfaction in the knowledge that i am actually a lot more intelligent than certain people

1) KSerbs are loyal to Serbia, not "Kosovo"
2) The majority of the world countries haven't recognized Kosovo state.
3) 2 permanent members of UNSC haven't recognized Kosovo state.
4) 5 EU members haven't recognized Kosovo state.

----------------------

...and despite all of this, Kosova enacts its own laws, FREE of Serbia. issue its own passports, its students and citizens can be educated and work abroad as Kosovar citizens, in fact, they can even travel with Kosovar passports to Spain, Greece, Romania (you know, countries which have withheld recognition (with visas of course)). so yes, sounds like a country to me.

as for foreign help, i do not know any Albanian who has ever said Kosova would have a strong economy and a fully functioning democracy within 4 years. however you look at it, Kosova is free of Serbia, the only problem is the North, that is it

Instead during KFOR occupation 100000+ KSerbs had to leave Kosovo, thousands are killed or missing and ghettorization of Kosovo is under way. All of this is pure KFOR responsibility.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 13:35)

Russia was part of KFOR, forgotten?

I read that Kosovo Albanian schools/universities practiced their own syllabus (actually anti YU/Serbian), so the logic was why should Albanians use state property(school buildings) to teach according to anti-state syllabus?
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 14:48)

-------------

Who the hell is adriatik?

Let me guess this straight, students studying science should be barred from university buildings because science is anti-yugslav? wake up. p.s. ypou still think the war was about Albanians wanting to move to the west and did they miss a brillianrt chance in 1999?

bbbzzz,

So you don't believe Russia had peacekeepers in S.Osetia and has them in Pridnestrov'e?

Rambullete implied independence for Kosovo in 3 years, that's what Albanians were promised by the West from the very beginning regardless of what Serbia would or wouldn't show.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 16:18)
No, Rambouillet says at the end of 3 years an international conference would convene to determine the status of Kosovo. But if you read the whole of Rambouillet it lays out the role of the govt of Kosovo and its dealings with FRY. Of course if you insist that Rambouillet inferred indpendence then 1244 also was meant to insure independence. as it says
"Facilitating a political process designed to determine Kosovo's future status, taking into account the Rambouillet accords (S/1999/648);"
So do you want to change your argument now because otherwise you are arguing that 1244 actually guarantees independence for Kosovo.

The UN resolution 1244 makes it quite clear - the final status for Kosovo is autonomy.
(Bob, 26 January 2012 10:33)

The UNSC Resolution 1244 does not say that. But just in case some people have dreams like yours, the ICJ also said “under the terms of resolution 1244 (1999) the Security Council did not reserve for itself the final determination of the situation in Kosovo and remained silent on the conditions for the final status of Kosovo”.
----------

A udi is not illegal, but neither is it legal unless it is agreed to by Serbia.
(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)

Oh dear, you obviously understand nothing about law. Everything that is not illegal, is legal. Again, just in case some people had dreams like yours, the ICJ said “the General Assembly has asked whether the
declaration of independence was “in accordance with” international law. The answer to that question turns on whether or not the applicable international law prohibited the declaration of independence”.

There does not exist such a thing that is neither illegal nor legal. It's either one or the other.
----------

I suggest that we all accept 1244, put it on the sign, and leave it at that.
(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)

Of course, everybody should accept 1244. But 1244 says nowhere what Kosovo’s name should or should not be.
----------

Are you sure it was/is possible to fight against such people as the KLA without breaking humanitarian law and the laws of war? What should one do against the provocators who shoot at police and then hide among civilians?
(aaayyy, 25 January 2012 21:07)

Of course it is possible to fight without breaking humanitarian law and the laws of war. Otherwise they would not be the law. As for who shoots at police and then hide among civilians, you find them and you punish them in accordance with the law. Nobody has ever shot at Serbian police in, say, Belgrade, then hidden among the population and police has then arrested him without committing any crimes ?! Mate, you sound you are coming from an alien planet :)
----------

I agree it should be Kosovo that is waving the 1244 banner proudly and every Serb should be embarassed to say the numbers, ever who sold them this bill of goods that it is a pro Serbian document is a very good salesman, they could probably Mink coat to a PETA activist.
(pss, 25 January 2012 22:35)

Milosevic, for sure, did not buy it because he was a real Serb patriot – but those who came after him are all traitors of Serbia :)

Nikolle

- by the way, I didn't know fairies had tails(!)

Already three have voted against my previous posting. How should that be interpreted?

I wish people would post their reasoning rather than just vote with their predudices.

I guess they would not want my peaceful Serbian friends to move back to Kosovo.

That is racist.

pss - please read 1244 and find the words 'udi' (if you can), and take on board the face value of the reaffirmations at the beginning. I am sure that the writers were using weasel words to try to leave space for a udi - but why didn't they just write that in if that was the specific intention of the resolution?

I think the weasel words failed. What you will find in 1244 are the words 'political settlement' - and that will not occur without Serbia's agreement - therefore the phrases 'substantial autonomy' still apply and will continue to apply. That (in my understanding) is why Serbia does have a case that some of the international community would wish to answer but cannot - and why they attempt to use other rough-hand political tactics to achieve acceptance of this new racistly motivated mistake of a second Albanian state.

As to who exactly signed which bits of paper - I leave that to you.
(Bob, 27 January 2012 04:17)

mate, we are flogging a dead horse. The ICJ said Kosovo's UDI is in accordance with 1244 - end of the story. Not sure what you are trying to argue about.

"Here, Macedonia has been putting up with the fact that the former Yugoslav republic is written for 15 years, then the EU must accept the argument that Kosovo must have the markings of the Resolution 1244, which is in effect and it says in all the EU documents,” he pointed out."

Kosovo should be represented as "FYSPOK (UN1244)" - Former Yugoslav Serbian Province of Kosovo (according to UN 1244)

"Macedonia has been putting up with the fact that the former Yugoslav republic is written for 15 years". Two wrongs do not make things right. How many years has been international community putting up with Serbia which even took it to war until it lost it.

There will be no asymmetrical representation clown. Why should Serbia be allowed to represented as Serbia but Kosovo be forced to take up some dead and gone resolution name?

Sincerely,

Negotiator: Kosovo must be represented under 1244


Why? Because Serbia cannot afford anymore to be left out in the regional events?

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 allows for hundreds but not thousands of Serbian Police and soldiers to return to Kosovo, and that that means 1,999 Serbian Police and soldiers can see to it that a Referendum in Northern Kosovo can be delayed for a while, as North Kosovo will join Serbia, and South Kosovo will continue to be Serbian Territory.
(Yet Another J S, 25 January 2012 13:01)
You live in your own little world don't you. The Stosk is not worth the time to rebutte.
The number of police which is less than 1000 (number accepted by everyone) not less than 2000 are not permitted to do any police or military functions. They are allowed to demine fields, act as liasons(interpreters) maintain a PRESENCE at key border crossings and patrimonial sites, notice that does not say control or guard.
The reason it was never acted on is what was the use. You would have 0 chance of getting it approved now 12 years later.

Staff

Interesting. let's see, Kosova enacts its own laws, it has its own police force, collect its own taxes...and is totally and UTTERLY free of Serbia's jurisdiction. It sure sounds like a country to me. no 1244, that is over

There are People who think that a good way to allow the Majority Albanian Areas in South Kosovo to be represented in regional forums, is under the name of Serbian Territory Of South Kosovo, or STOSK, and that a United Nations Security Council Resolution be made for this after both Parties agree.

North Kosovo should not be included in this matter, and needs to be a negotiated agreement to agree on the Reality on the Ground as of December 31 2001, on where those Majority Albanian Areas in South Kosovo are, and where the Majority Serbian Areas in South Kosovo are, and that should be fixed for the next 15 years, before any new mutual agreement can be made as to what Territory can or should be defined or redefined as STOSK.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 allows for hundreds but not thousands of Serbian Police and soldiers to return to Kosovo, and that that means 1,999 Serbian Police and soldiers can see to it that a Referendum in Northern Kosovo can be delayed for a while, as North Kosovo will join Serbia, and South Kosovo will continue to be Serbian Territory.

I think Serbia needs a new negotiator.
"He noted that those requests were not as brutal as during Slobodan Milošević's time"
Does he really think anyone would believe that there was pressure on Serbia to give up 1244 during Milosevic. 1244 was enacted to force Serbia out of Kosovo, and remove any and all control. Until somewhere around 2007 when someone was able to fool Serbs into thinking that 1244 guaranteed that Kosovo was a part of Serbia, Serbia denounced 1244 with every breath.

As long as Serbia does not break humanitarian law and the laws of war (as was often the case under Milosevic)
(Bob)

Are you sure it was/is possible to fight against such people as the KLA without breaking humanitarian law and the laws of war? What should one do against the provocators who shoot at police and then hide among civilians?

"Here, Macedonia has been putting up with the fact that the former Yugoslav republic is written for 15 years, then the EU must accept the argument that Kosovo must have the markings of the Resolution 1244, which is in effect and it says in all the EU documents,” he pointed out."

Considering the fact that Serbia recognize the name "Rep. of Macedonia", this argument gets a very funny taste. Oh Stefanovic..

Cheers!

Without 1244 Serbia is the legal government of Kosovo.

Without 1244 the international community has no right to stop Serbia defending its land.

As long as Serbia does not break humanitarian law and the laws of war (as was often the case under Milosevic) without 1244 the international community does not have the right to stop the Serbian army controlling the territory again.

If 1244 is derogated Serbia could reenter tomorrow and it would be illegal for the international community to stop it because it would not have legal cause to go against Serbia on its own land - as properly documented in previous agreements.

A udi is not illegal, but neither is it legal unless it is agreed to by Serbia.

I suggest that we all accept 1244, put it on the sign, and leave it at that.

Not so much to argue about really. Kosovo is not a country, its a province to most of nations and people. How could a province be represented at international gatherings ?
Just say NO. Its prevented until the end of times with 1244. Period.

suggest that we all accept 1244, put it on the sign, and leave it at that.
(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)
I agree with most of your post except the part about the international community not being able to be in Kosovo legally. The 86 or so countries that have recognized Kosovo can and the major powers will at the request of what they perceive as a sovereign country intervene on their behalf. Of course before 1244 would be dissolved in the UNSC that portion would be guaranteed.

I agree it should be Kosovo that is waving the 1244 banner proudly and every Serb should be embarassed to say the numbers, ever who sold them this bill of goods that it is a pro Serbian document is a very good salesman, they could probably Mink coat to a PETA activist.

Nikolle

Congratulations on your great intelligence. I just point out that my friends, who are the nicest and most peaceful people you could ever know, we're forced out of Kosovo long before the Milosevic era, by Albanians who made their life there totally impossible. They feel betrayed by their Albanian neighbours who complied with pressure from separatist Albanians to stop trading with their Serb neighbours and to do everything to make their lives unbareable.

I also point out that the very term ethnic cleansing is said to originate with the policy of the Albanian communist party in Kosovo long before Milosevic.

I know im out of the thematic here, but realy im very courious about something. I visited Belgrade some weeks ago and i enjoyed a really great time in Serbia. First i was a little afraid, of your behaviour towards an albanian in Serbia (of course, i know before i was going in a civilised country, this is why i came), but i found the welcome agreable. Now, whats my point. I read every day the comments in the hot topics of b-92, and i see so much hate towards kosovo albanians. My question are:
1. Does an average serb differentiate albania from Kosovo or albanians are the same for you?
2. What's the perception about Republic of Albania (not Kosovo) in serbia
3. Will you chose to visit Albania if you had such an opportunity?
4. Why you think albania is an largely muslim country? (only 4% of populations goes regulary in churches and mosque. I am orthodox for example)

Thank you for reading and commenting me. Really, nice Kalamegdan and caffe Moscow in a very beatiful town, Belgrade

Nikolle

So you choose not to see that when my friends lives became impossible they had to leave Kosovo.

That is no fairy tail.

You attempt a counter argument instead.

Apply your intelligence for a moment - for example, maybe numbers do increase but in ever smaller areas. I am not necessarily saying that is what happened, but it does show that your argument about numbers does not counter the case.

Can I assume that you would welcome my friends back - with all their friends - and that you would actively defend them against any Albanians who would choose to attack them? Would you do business with them and talk to them in the street even though some other Albanian may attack you and ostracise you (or worse) for doing so?

I very much doubt it.

Can you really look to your heart and say that you would?

I bet that you are glad that they have gone!

I would welcome that you would say that I am wrong on this - and we can then arrange to test your assertion in practice.

Bob

apparently the whole thing in Kosova was a racially motivated affair by one people (who funnily enough were never in charge) against another more powerful group who controlled the police, the army, passed legislation ad so on and so forth. that is the problem right there, people seriously, SERIOUSLY, believe that the whole war was an attempt to rid Kosova of Serbs. nonsense. have you actually ever read anything on the issue? do you know that Kosovar Albanian students were barred, BARRED from being educated in university buildings? do you know that an Albanian was not allowed to purchase property or land from a Serb (it was actually a law in the time of Milosevic, you know, the one Serbs chose as their leader)? do keep writing however, as reading garbage now and again only fills me with satisfaction in the knowledge that i am actually a lot more intelligent than certain people

I guess that was the reson why Russians left Kosovo, though I am not sure it was good decision (to leave kosovo that is).
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 14:57)

They left because they couldn't pay their bills anymmore. Welcome to reality!
(bbbzzz, 26 January 2012 15:15)

Are you serious? Russia supported/support peacekeepers in several places, not only in Kosovo, and somehow has money for it.

Kosovo is not a sovereign country - it is part of Serbia. This is long established in international agreements.

The justification for the bombing was humanitarian - it was not justified as an invasion of Serbian territory with a consequent land grab.

The Albanian land grab is racially motivated - Serbia is a much more multiethnic country in its structure and in its thinking.
It is wrong of the international community to reward the policy of ethnic cleansing that the Albanians have pursued against Serbs since long before Milosevic. Decent peaceful Serbs were driven out by Albanians - that in itself is sufficient to say that this so called udi should never have been encouraged or accepted by anyone. I detested Milosevic's politics, but I detest the racist ambition that is represented by Albanians in Kosovo even more. For years Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slovenians, were paying into Kosovo to subsidise it, and instead of 'Brotherhood and Unity' the Albanians gave them a kick in the face. It is not as if there is not already a country called Albania - this is just spread into adjoining territory.

The UN resolution 1244 makes it quite clear - the final status for Kosovo is autonomy.

Serbia can legally impose legal autonomy on Kosovo within 1244!! Why not just label the current administration as 'the representatives of autonomous Kosovo under 1244'. The udi is spurious as currently Kosovo is governed as a protectorate.

Without 1244 there is no requirement for autonomy - Serbia is the government.

1244 was signed under duress - that in itself makes its legality questionable. Be glad if Serbia goes along with it.

How about Serbia recognises Manchester as a separate country - let's get 88 countries to recognise and then does that make it legal? No it does not.

-----------

On the matter of war crimes. Unfortunately Milosevic never intended that substantial efforts be made to protect civilians or that the fighting should be done under the international rules. War is a nasty affair anyway, but the rules do give some level of protection - to disregard them is unnecessary. More to the point it is politically inept. Many posters on this site try to make it look as if NATO is committing war crimes to somehow justify the things that were done wrongly in Bosnia. That is usually much harder to prove than it was with the Bosnian war in particular, when war crimes such as shelling civilian areas of a city were actively perpetrated in front of the TV cameras and when Karadic and Mladic (for example) were openly scornful of international opinion and pressure. The point is that (whether or not they fully succeed) NATO and others make an effort to keep to the law - the forces in Bosnia made NO real effort and in general fought very dishonourably. Criminality took over, and lots of things took place that did not help the conflict and which alienated Serbia in the eyes of the world; for that reason I label those law breakers as traitors to Serbia - they did a lot of harm to Serbia's good name. The international community had no trust in Milosevic and so intervened in Kosovo. The intervention was not without some justification, but it should not have been finished as a land grab - the solution should be one that brings all parties to a peaceful conclusion not one that rewards the racism of Albanians against Serbs (or vice versa come to that).

1) KSerbs are loyal to Serbia, not "Kosovo"
2) The majority of the world countries haven't recognized Kosovo state.
3) 2 permanent members of UNSC haven't recognized Kosovo state.
4) 5 EU members haven't recognized Kosovo state.

----------------------

...and despite all of this, Kosova enacts its own laws, FREE of Serbia. issue its own passports, its students and citizens can be educated and work abroad as Kosovar citizens, in fact, they can even travel with Kosovar passports to Spain, Greece, Romania (you know, countries which have withheld recognition (with visas of course)). so yes, sounds like a country to me.

as for foreign help, i do not know any Albanian who has ever said Kosova would have a strong economy and a fully functioning democracy within 4 years. however you look at it, Kosova is free of Serbia, the only problem is the North, that is it

Thank you for reading and commenting me. Really, nice Kalamegdan and caffe Moscow in a very beatiful town, Belgrade
(Tirana 24 year old, 25 January 2012 19:56)
=========================

While you are reading those comments of hate towards K-Albanians do you also happen to read the comments of hate from K-Albanians?
It's very difficult not to respond in kind when you are faced daily with sarcasm, threats and hate so perhaps you should also be asking the same questions from them.

The short answer is no, there is no hate towards Albanian population in general but there is plenty toward KLA sympathizers, Thaci diffenders and plenty of negative feeling about Albanians posting here who do nothing more than provoke. If you were in Serbia then you would've noticed many different ethnic groups living there in peace. That should tell you all you need to know about how Serbs feel towards different groups.

to be fair Peggy, Serbs still have not come to the realization that keeping Kosovo comes hand in hand with keeping the Albanians who live there. you will not get the territory without the people. what does that mean? well, equal rights in EVERYTHING and i do mean absolutely EVERYTHING. long term, an Albanian who can run to become President of Serbia and choose his own cabinet. what people conveniently forget is that in Kosovo (if we now think in terms of Serbia's constitution i.e. still a part of Serbia), Serbia has a very LARGE and significant number of Albanians, 1.8 mill in number and growing. ignoring them, as was done in the 90's and worse, did not get you anything. so allow me to ask you, (as a Serb living ins Australia) are you prepared to have a Kosovar Albanian run your country? you see, no Serb I know will EVER countenance that. allow me to ask you another question: do you think the Albanians were lying about their plight and were the massacres faked? you see, do some soul searching before coming here and describing a tolerant image of Serbia that so betrays reality

"A state" which relies only on foreign powers isn't stable one.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 11:13)

Like Serbia that relies exclusively on Russia's support?

"do you know that Kosovar Albanian students were barred, BARRED from being educated in university buildings?"

(Nikolle, are you adriatik?)

I read that Kosovo Albanian schools/universities practiced their own syllabus (actually anti YU/Serbian), so the logic was why should Albanians use state property(school buildings) to teach according to anti-state syllabus?

The west would have supported this autonomy if Serbia would have showed any good faith during the negotiations.
(pss)

What should Serbia have done during the negotiations in order to keep Kosovo as Serbian province in your opinion?

Rambullete implied independence for Kosovo in 3 years, that's what Albanians were promised by the West from the very beginning regardless of what Serbia would or wouldn't show.

Bob

There is no doubt to my mind Bob that you seriously believe your fairy tail. Rather than me going back and forth, read ALL statistics on Kosovo from 1960's, you will see the Serbian population there increased. What did fall is their make up of the total, which is down to the high Albanian birthrate. Do not come here and tell me fictional stories, I won't have. I was born, grew up and still live in Kosovo, so preach to others who are ready to buy your tales

Nikolle

- by the way, I didn't know fairies had tails(!)

Already three have voted against my previous posting. How should that be interpreted?

I wish people would post their reasoning rather than just vote with their predudices.

I guess they would not want my peaceful Serbian friends to move back to Kosovo.

That is racist.

The 86 or so countries that have recognized Kosovo can and the major powers will at the request of what they perceive as a sovereign country intervene on their behalf.
(pss)

It will be promising scenario for future WW - countries which recognized Kosovo intervene on behalf of Kosovo and countries which didn't recognize Kosovo intervene on behalf of Serbia... :) :(

I know im out of the thematic here, but realy im very courious about something. I visited Belgrade some weeks ago and i enjoyed a really great time in Serbia. First i was a little afraid, of your behaviour towards an albanian in Serbia (of course, i know before i was going in a civilised country, this is why i came), but i found the welcome agreable. Now, whats my point. I read every day the comments in the hot topics of b-92, and i see so much hate towards kosovo albanians. My question are:
1. Does an average serb differentiate albania from Kosovo or albanians are the same for you?
2. What's the perception about Republic of Albania (not Kosovo) in serbia
3. Will you chose to visit Albania if you had such an opportunity?
4. Why you think albania is an largely muslim country? (only 4% of populations goes regulary in churches and mosque. I am orthodox for example)

Thank you for reading and commenting me. Really, nice Kalamegdan and caffe Moscow in a very beatiful town, Belgrade
(Tirana 24 year old, 25 January 2012 19:56)

Very, very good comment, friendly and refreshing :)))

On the matter of war crimes. Unfortunately Milosevic never intended that substantial efforts be made to protect civilians or that the fighting should be done under the international rules.
(Bob, 26 January 2012 10:33)

You are absolutely right on it, but on the other hand did NATO/KFOR show in Kosovo how to supress the KLA and keep Serbian population in Kosovo without touching Albanian civilians? No, they didn't. If they had done it they would have rights to say: "See, you couldn't do it, your Milosevic couldn't do it, while we can, so we have moral rights to occupy Kosovo for some time". Instead during KFOR occupation 100000+ KSerbs had to leave Kosovo, thousands are killed or missing and ghettorization of Kosovo is under way. All of this is pure KFOR responsibility.

Instead during KFOR occupation 100000+ KSerbs had to leave Kosovo, thousands are killed or missing and ghettorization of Kosovo is under way. All of this is pure KFOR responsibility.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 13:35)

Russia was part of KFOR, forgotten?

...equal rights in EVERYTHING and i do mean absolutely EVERYTHING. long term, an Albanian who can run to become President of Serbia and choose his own cabinet.
(Nikolle, 26 January 2012 10:57)

Didn't Tadic say something like that? Also he proposed a lot of compromise solutions, but all of them were rejected, the only solution suitable for Prishtina and the West is that ALL of Kosovo is taken from Serbia forever without any influence allowed.

The justification for the bombing was humanitarian - it was not justified as an invasion of Serbian territory with a consequent land grab.
(Bob)

I am afraid real motivation for the bombing was the land grab from the very beginning - Thaci didn't want to sign the Rambulette accord since it didn't provide Kosovo independence right after the war (speaks a lot about hunanitarian intensions), but he was talked to do it and wait a little bit. But independence was promised to him long ago.

Instead during KFOR occupation 100000+ KSerbs had to leave Kosovo, thousands are killed or missing and ghettorization of Kosovo is under way. All of this is pure KFOR responsibility.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 13:35)

Russia was part of KFOR, forgotten?
(bbbzzz, 26 January 2012 13:56)

Russia had a handful of peacekeepers, who had to serve under NATO command, were placed in Albanian populated areas. BTW once Albanians didn't let Russian peacekeepers go to the location of their service, by blocking roads, building barricades and placing women/children on them. as far as I know Russians never went there.

NATO/KFOR commanders made scenarious to push Russian peacekeepers to the conflict with KSerbs, while preventing their own troops from conflicts with KAlbanians. I guess that was the reson why Russians left Kosovo, though I am not sure it was good decision (to leave kosovo that is).

Bob you have many many errors in your post. Try some research. 1244 leaves status of Kosovo open no where does it imply that the goal is autonomy. It does say that the purpose is for Kosovo to enjoy autonomy within Yugoslavia until status is settled. The west would have supported this autonomy if Serbia would have showed any good faith during the negotiations. Serbia only started shouting "more than autonomy less than independence" after it was determined the Kosovo authorities planned to UDI and the west would support it, long after talks ended.
Serbia did not sign 1244 under duress, Serbia never signed 1244, Serbia was not consulted on 1244. Serbia signed Kumanovo agreement. Under Duress?? I think you could say that EVERY agreement to end a war was signed under duress. They have all been held as valid.
As far as Serbia being more multiethnic society, is a laugh at best, you TOLERATE others as long as they do nothing to buck the Serbian way of life, you make no effort to incorporate them into Serbian society, that is the definition of multiethnic.
As far as the finish to the war being a landgrab. You say under 1244 Kosovo is a Serbian province if you believe that then how can you say the goal was a landgrab. Further read the Rambouillet accords on what the west was originally proposing. It envisioned Yugoslavia being essential 3 parts Serbia, Montenegro, and Kosovo pretty much the same as pre Milosevic with the exception of some further guarantees for Kosovo freedom, and then a settlement on status.
All these proposals and plans depended on one element that was never there. Some type of efforts from Serbia to assure the peace and safety of the Kosovo people and some type of guarantee that Serbia would not interfere in the autonomous govt of Kosovo. Can you name one action Serbia did that would come close to addressing that issue. All of Serbias efforts have been to retain the land. After Kosovo was lost Serbia came up with the phrase more than autonomy less than independence but have you ever seen anything that explains what is meant by that?

I guess that was the reson why Russians left Kosovo, though I am not sure it was good decision (to leave kosovo that is).
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 14:57)

They left because they couldn't pay their bills anymmore. Welcome to reality!

Are you serious? Russia supported/support peacekeepers in several places, not only in Kosovo, and somehow has money for it.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 16:21)

You are free to believe whatever you want.

Rambullete implied independence for Kosovo in 3 years, that's what Albanians were promised by the West from the very beginning regardless of what Serbia would or wouldn't show.
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 16:18)
No, Rambouillet says at the end of 3 years an international conference would convene to determine the status of Kosovo. But if you read the whole of Rambouillet it lays out the role of the govt of Kosovo and its dealings with FRY. Of course if you insist that Rambouillet inferred indpendence then 1244 also was meant to insure independence. as it says
"Facilitating a political process designed to determine Kosovo's future status, taking into account the Rambouillet accords (S/1999/648);"
So do you want to change your argument now because otherwise you are arguing that 1244 actually guarantees independence for Kosovo.

The UN resolution 1244 makes it quite clear - the final status for Kosovo is autonomy.
(Bob, 26 January 2012 10:33)

The UNSC Resolution 1244 does not say that. But just in case some people have dreams like yours, the ICJ also said “under the terms of resolution 1244 (1999) the Security Council did not reserve for itself the final determination of the situation in Kosovo and remained silent on the conditions for the final status of Kosovo”.
----------

A udi is not illegal, but neither is it legal unless it is agreed to by Serbia.
(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)

Oh dear, you obviously understand nothing about law. Everything that is not illegal, is legal. Again, just in case some people had dreams like yours, the ICJ said “the General Assembly has asked whether the
declaration of independence was “in accordance with” international law. The answer to that question turns on whether or not the applicable international law prohibited the declaration of independence”.

There does not exist such a thing that is neither illegal nor legal. It's either one or the other.
----------

I suggest that we all accept 1244, put it on the sign, and leave it at that.
(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)

Of course, everybody should accept 1244. But 1244 says nowhere what Kosovo’s name should or should not be.
----------

Are you sure it was/is possible to fight against such people as the KLA without breaking humanitarian law and the laws of war? What should one do against the provocators who shoot at police and then hide among civilians?
(aaayyy, 25 January 2012 21:07)

Of course it is possible to fight without breaking humanitarian law and the laws of war. Otherwise they would not be the law. As for who shoots at police and then hide among civilians, you find them and you punish them in accordance with the law. Nobody has ever shot at Serbian police in, say, Belgrade, then hidden among the population and police has then arrested him without committing any crimes ?! Mate, you sound you are coming from an alien planet :)
----------

I agree it should be Kosovo that is waving the 1244 banner proudly and every Serb should be embarassed to say the numbers, ever who sold them this bill of goods that it is a pro Serbian document is a very good salesman, they could probably Mink coat to a PETA activist.
(pss, 25 January 2012 22:35)

Milosevic, for sure, did not buy it because he was a real Serb patriot – but those who came after him are all traitors of Serbia :)

There will be no asymmetrical representation clown. Why should Serbia be allowed to represented as Serbia but Kosovo be forced to take up some dead and gone resolution name?

Sincerely,
(KOSO, 25 January 2012 15:21)
=========================

Why? Because it was agreed that it was going to be represented by UN or don't agreements mean anything to you?
BTW, 1244 is not gone. If it were gone then it must've been abolished officially or replaced by another resolution. Can you tell me which one it was and when?

Without 1244 Serbia is the legal government of Kosovo.

Without 1244 the international community has no right to stop Serbia defending its land.

As long as Serbia does not break humanitarian law and the laws of war (as was often the case under Milosevic) without 1244 the international community does not have the right to stop the Serbian army controlling the territory again.

If 1244 is derogated Serbia could reenter tomorrow and it would be illegal for the international community to stop it because it would not have legal cause to go against Serbia on its own land - as properly documented in previous agreements.

A udi is not illegal, but neither is it legal unless it is agreed to by Serbia.

I suggest that we all accept 1244, put it on the sign, and leave it at that.
(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)


Bob,

All your arguments above are moot. (No pun intended.)

What counts is the reality on the ground.

Everyone, including the Serbs, understands this.

Any intervention on the part of Serbia would be even more disastrous for her than in 1999.

Why can not the Serbian government wake up and stop lying his people.
Tell your people in Serbia that Kosovo is lost.
All Serbs are welcome to celebrate Kosovo's independence on February 17.

Those who have problems to recognize Kosovo is lost, you can come to visit Kosova at gazimestan where you usually strange but true celebration of your lost war.

War solves nothing.

Tell your people in Serbia that Kosovo is lost.
(Altin)

But
1) KSerbs are loyal to Serbia, not "Kosovo"
2) The majority of the world countries haven't recognized Kosovo state.
3) 2 permanent members of UNSC haven't recognized Kosovo state.
4) 5 EU members haven't recognized Kosovo state.

It will be promising scenario for future WW - countries which recognized Kosovo intervene on behalf of Kosovo and countries which didn't recognize Kosovo intervene on behalf of Serbia... :) :(
(aaayyy, 25 January 2012 23:40
Oh you mean like happened in 1999??? Dream on, dream on!

"A udi is not illegal, but neither is it legal unless it is agreed to by Serbia. ...

(Bob, 25 January 2012 20:21)

You're confusing two definitions of "legality." Under international law, a "UDI" is not illegal, whether or not the country being left agrees to it - because international law does not govern such matters. It's up to third countries to decided whether they consider the new country independent or not - it's a right of sovereign nations. Under Serbian law, of course, it is illegal, but Serbian law only applies in Serbia.

I think Serbia needs a new negotiator.
"He noted that those requests were not as brutal as during Slobodan Milošević's time"
Does he really think anyone would believe that there was pressure on Serbia to give up 1244 during Milosevic. 1244 was enacted to force Serbia out of Kosovo, and remove any and all control. Until somewhere around 2007 when someone was able to fool Serbs into thinking that 1244 guaranteed that Kosovo was a part of Serbia, Serbia denounced 1244 with every breath.
(a New Day, 25 January 2012 16:18)

You made some very good points. However, Serbs, when it is to their advantage, conveniently forget what they accepted yesterday, let alone what they agreed to in the distant past. That is why the USA and the EU are feed up with Serbia's nonsense and will now do whatever is necessary to bring stability to the region. The Serbs can choose to pursue the path to the EU and NATO or not, in either case it will be without Kosovo. The ground work is now being established for Kosovo to join NATO and then the EU. The Serbs can ruminate forever as far as the West and the Kosovars are concerned. "The dogs bark but the caravan moves on".

It will be promising scenario for future WW - countries which recognized Kosovo intervene on behalf of Kosovo and countries which didn't recognize Kosovo intervene on behalf of Serbia... :) :(
(aaayyy, 25 January 2012 23:40
Oh you mean like happened in 1999??? Dream on, dream on!
(pss, 26 January 2012 00:12)

Once you were given in, but don't think it will last forever...
It's strange that you don't want to think about reasonable compromise, instead you only want to rely on foreign powers.
"A state" which relies only on foreign powers isn't stable one.

bbbzzz,

So you don't believe Russia had peacekeepers in S.Osetia and has them in Pridnestrov'e?

I read that Kosovo Albanian schools/universities practiced their own syllabus (actually anti YU/Serbian), so the logic was why should Albanians use state property(school buildings) to teach according to anti-state syllabus?
(aaayyy, 26 January 2012 14:48)

-------------

Who the hell is adriatik?

Let me guess this straight, students studying science should be barred from university buildings because science is anti-yugslav? wake up. p.s. ypou still think the war was about Albanians wanting to move to the west and did they miss a brillianrt chance in 1999?

pss - please read 1244 and find the words 'udi' (if you can), and take on board the face value of the reaffirmations at the beginning. I am sure that the writers were using weasel words to try to leave space for a udi - but why didn't they just write that in if that was the specific intention of the resolution?

I think the weasel words failed. What you will find in 1244 are the words 'political settlement' - and that will not occur without Serbia's agreement - therefore the phrases 'substantial autonomy' still apply and will continue to apply. That (in my understanding) is why Serbia does have a case that some of the international community would wish to answer but cannot - and why they attempt to use other rough-hand political tactics to achieve acceptance of this new racistly motivated mistake of a second Albanian state.

As to who exactly signed which bits of paper - I leave that to you.

Bob

No doubt in my mind that your story is a fairy tale, or your friends have been lying to you. Answer me, when did this happen? You see, what I base my reasoning on is hard core data, Serbia's own statistics show that the Serb population in Kosovo increased from the 1950's onwards. What did rise at an even higher rate is that of the Albanians, which is attributed to their hight birthrate. Do not take my word for it, read statistcs. So, taking all of that in mind, if, as you keep saying there was pressure on the Serb populacew, why did their number not dwindle? that is why i say you're telling me a fairy tale

pss - please read 1244 and find the words 'udi' (if you can), and take on board the face value of the reaffirmations at the beginning. I am sure that the writers were using weasel words to try to leave space for a udi - but why didn't they just write that in if that was the specific intention of the resolution?

I think the weasel words failed. What you will find in 1244 are the words 'political settlement' - and that will not occur without Serbia's agreement - therefore the phrases 'substantial autonomy' still apply and will continue to apply. That (in my understanding) is why Serbia does have a case that some of the international community would wish to answer but cannot - and why they attempt to use other rough-hand political tactics to achieve acceptance of this new racistly motivated mistake of a second Albanian state.

As to who exactly signed which bits of paper - I leave that to you.
(Bob, 27 January 2012 04:17)

mate, we are flogging a dead horse. The ICJ said Kosovo's UDI is in accordance with 1244 - end of the story. Not sure what you are trying to argue about.