Russian FM on organ trade case, Šešelj

Zoran, thanks for that perfect answer to Bob. You certainly have put him in his place. The problem with the Bobs of the world is that they think that the Hague is a real court. The fact is, it is a court run by NATO and it is a sham - a kangaroo court which conducts show trials. Its whole purpose is to justify NATO's war crimes and turn the victim (Serbia) into a villain. It is a disgusting monstrocity that should not be recognized by anyone.
I just have one question for Bob. If the Hague is an impartial court, then why in the world did they release Naser Oric despite clear overwhelming evidence of his war crimes?

Good luck Mr. Larov, but you have an uphill battle fighting the corrupt and unethical Western powers. It is obvious to anyone familiar with the Hague trials of the biased verdicts that were handed down - against Serbs, and in favor of the Muslims and Croats. The Seselj trial is a complete fiasco. How can the Hague tribunal keep a straight face and call themselves an honorable world court? For God's sake, the Nuremberg Trials lasted four years, and the Hague cannot try Seleslj, one man in how many now, seven? I applaud Russia for exposing this hoax of a world court, and the dishonorable nations that stand behind it.

I am also saying that trying to defend these people or whinging about their treatment just compounds the belief that many still have that Serbia is 'not there yet' and is still stuck in an unacceptable past.
(Bob, 18 January 2012 14:38)
--
Who are these "many" that still think "Serbia is not there yet"? Could it be the same people that prematurely recognised Croatia and Slovenia, leading to war in the former YU? The same people that went ahead with pushing independence for BiH even after being warned it would lead to war? Or perhaps the same people that aided Croatian nationalists to commit genocide once again in Krajina. You know, the same people that helped Albanian nationalists and terrorists commit genocide yet again in KiM?

Let me tell you something bob, we will never "be there". We weren't there for the Ottomans or the Austro-Hungarians. We weren't there for the NAZIs and we won't be there for NATO either.

You need to ask yourself, was it acceptable to have Serbians, who lived relatively peacefully in a country one day, divided against their will another day and without negotiations?

Just like Russia helped Serbia in the Milosevic case, by granting his wife and son who are wanted by Serbian prosecution asylum?

"Those who have been found guilty had direct evidence on which they were convicted and they deserved to be tried."

Not true Bob as many have been convicted on the "testimony" of perjurers - simply a person or persons' claims and no real hard evidence such as autopsy reports.
And several Serbs have died in custody under mysterious circumstances - some after years of medical neglect.

Bob,

Thanks for avoiding the question. So I will ask you again, if the Hague is indeed impartial as you suggest, then why in the world did they release the worst war criminal of the wars, Naser Oric, despite overwhelming evidence?
http://vostaniserbie.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/no-justice-in-the-west/
http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2011/06/06/bosnian-muslim-mass-murderer-naser-orics-greatest-hits/

Oric showed video footage to Bill Schiller of the Toronto Star of his 'greatest hits', which included unspeakable attrocities, such as severed heads of Serbs. So I want an answer Bob, all Serbs want an answer, why would an impartial court release such a monster?
I will answer for you since I know you can't answer that question. It is because the Hague is an anti-Serb Kangaroo court, a show trial, meant to whitewash the war crimes of NATO and their stooges (Croats, albanians, Bosnian muslims), and to turn the victims (Serbs) into villains. Once again Bob, we are right, and you are wrong.
Cheers!!

It does no good for Serbia in the eyes of the world for people to try to defend the behaviour of these people - it was unacceptable for the world community.

Whinging about proportionality is no defence of that behaviour either.

The whiners love to attack the west, NATO, etc., and I am sure that a few Russians will join in that game too.


You are very disillusioned. You watch too much cnn. Everything you are basing your opinions on is complete malarky. They dont even know why they are have Seselj on trial. They know its for war crimes and thats it. Meanwhile people like Obric are pardoned, so naturally we need to talkl about favoritism and corruption. The mouths of all the Serb generals and the former president must be silenced and discredited, so y ou create a special court to try these so called "monsters". Milosevic couldnt be convicted legally so instead he was illegally killed by the hague slowly through mal nourishment. THis court is dispicable, and as Lavrov said the Nuremburg trials only lasted 4 years, i would say those trials were of much higher magnitude.

No itsmore like how NO kla memebers ever even went to the haugue due to nato protection. i think thats alot more significant

Bob,

Again, you avoided the question. Again, I am asking, if your Hague is impartial as you claim, then why did they release a war criminal like Naser Oric, with such clear and overwhelming evidence? Answer the question please. I don't want another long winded diatribe about the war and its causes. I just want a simple answer from you on the Oric case.
Cheers!!

However, take the point that there is another perspective that says those murders should not go unpunished.
(Bob, 20 January 2012 14:37)

I agree, murdurere should not go unpunished. Therefore, the initiators of the illegal and criminal bombing of Serbia for 78 days around the clock should not go unpunished, right Bob? Madeline Albright, Wesley Clark, Tony Bliar, Bombardier Bill Clinton, Javier Solana....Why are they not even tried at the Hague despite overwhelming evidence. Cluster bombs in market places, bombing power plants, cigarette factories, murdering janitors and make-up staff at the RTS building, poisoning Serbia with depleted uranium, bombing every civilian target imaginable.....you name it, they bombed it and killed thousands of innocents all based on teh fake and orchestrated 'Racak massacre' which everyone knows is a sham.
Yes, but the Hague will never try these people will they Bob, because the Hague was created by these very same war criminals. These are show trials Bob, this is a kangaroo court, and it has nothing to do with truth and justice - this is a fact. I know it because they released the man who is responsible for this:
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=232
Quit spreading lies and propoganda that the Hague is fair and just, anyone with half a brain can see that it is a court run by NATO war criminals who are scared to death of the truth getting out.

This is not a just a question of fairness to states - these are trials of individuals. Whether there is proportionality is of some significance, but the main point is that criminal individuals have been tried and appropriately found guilty in several cases. Those who have been found guilty had direct evidence on which they were convicted and they deserved to be tried.

This particular court was set up because of particular things that were happening in Yugoslavia for which there was no active legal process to counter the terrible and unthinkable things that were being done to innocent civilians in the face of the international community.

The behaviour of people like Mladic and Karadic has dragged the name of Serbia very low in the eyes of the world community - and people like Seselj who stirred up the hatred that fed the war are as also seen in terms of the evil that represents. Milosevic became known as a butcher.

It does no good for Serbia in the eyes of the world for people to try to defend the behaviour of these people - it was unacceptable for the world community.

Whinging about proportionality is no defence of that behaviour either.

The whiners love to attack the west, NATO, etc., and I am sure that a few Russians will join in that game too.

I am not saying that the west has done everything right. I am saying that Serbia has suffered greatly because of unconstrained nationalism that turned into criminality and lead to the Serbian people having to suffer sanctions etc., because of the poor standard of nationalistic politics from that era.

I am also saying that trying to defend these people or whinging about their treatment just compounds the belief that many still have that Serbia is 'not there yet' and is still stuck in an unacceptable past.

That said - this trial is taking too long!!

Good luck Mr. Larov, but you have an uphill battle fighting the corrupt and unethical Western powers. It is obvious to anyone familiar with the Hague trials of the biased verdicts that were handed down - against Serbs, and in favor of the Muslims and Croats. The Seselj trial is a complete fiasco. How can the Hague tribunal keep a straight face and call themselves an honorable world court? For God's sake, the Nuremberg Trials lasted four years, and the Hague cannot try Seleslj, one man in how many now, seven? I applaud Russia for exposing this hoax of a world court, and the dishonorable nations that stand behind it.
(PapaJohn, 18 January 2012 12:27)
Russia exposing injustice, isn't that an oxymoron.
You notice Russia is offering its support when the trial is at its end, just like yesterday the announcement of their investigation into the medicus case (which they have not turned any evidence over to EULEX) and the trial is in its conclusion phase. Sounds like a lot of hype for the papers and Serbian ears and not much substance.

Bob, thanks for admitting that the Hague executes 'selective justice'. You seem to think that is ok, but it is clearly not ok. It is the reason that it is a sham, a kangaroo court, and these are show trials. You also have the simplistic view that Milosevic is responsible for everything. Not a word about the holocaust denier Tudjman, who was reinstituting Ustashe policies in Croatia, and there is proof that the Croats were planning for war for years before. At least you have exposed yourself for what you are, which is an anti-Serb one sided blowhard, who likes to ignore the facts and apply 'selective justice' when it suits him. People like you are the reason everyone hates Americans. Yugoslavia was a disaster because of people like you - with stupid, short sighted, simplistic, and one sided policies. You seem to have ignored any atrocities against Serbs in your argument, as if they didn't exist, and as if Jasenoac didn't happen. You probably think the other US sponsored genocide, Operation Storm, is ok. You are pathetic. History will show that the West had disastrous leaders in the 90's who caused an absolute mess with their anti-Serb policies. Until this changes, it will remain a mess.

Danilo,
So if a robber warns you that he is going to rob your house tomorrow, and you stay to defend it and he kills you, you are the one responsible? Another ridiculous, and laughable argument. Only a simpleton fool would blame Milosevic for the murder of the RTS staff, and not blame the war criminals dropping the bombs. You seem to think killing journalists is ok by the Geneva convention?

Bob,

1) Milosevic died at Hague, while Tudjmana and Izetbegovic were not brought to justice. Do you think it's just?
2) Hague tribunal accused Serbs of criminal military strategy. do you believe it is tribunal's business to judge on military strategy?
3) The same crimes committed by different ethnic groups are treated differently by the tribunal - in case of Serbs the tribunal declares that the crimes were planned state official policy, while in case of the other ethnic groups it is considered that just several radicals got out of hand. Do you think it is just?

...someone messed up.

He probably should be tried somewhere.

However, it is not very meaningful to argue from the single case to the general case.

(Bob, 19 January 2012 20:48)

Wow, is that the best you could do Bob? Someone messed up?? Wow. Well Bob, I don't buy your ridiculous argument that someone 'messed up' when there is video evidence of attrocities which Oric bragged about to western reporters. Do you think O.J. Simpson would be walking around freely today if there were video evidence of himself murdering Nicole Brown? Your argument is laughable.
I will tell you the real reason why that disgusting war criminal Oric was released. Because the NATO war criminals (who control that kangaroo court) do not want the truth to get out - the truth is that Oric's beheading of Serbs, his brutal killings of women and children in the villages around Srebrenica, is the very reason that the revenge killings by the Serbs happened! I might add that the Serbs did not ever kill women and children, and were only looking for revenge for their friends and relatives who were mutilated by Oric and his gang of war criminals. This is the truth about Srebrenica, and it would shed light on the sham, the lie, tha is repeated in the western media that Srebrenica is genocide. The west uses the Srebrenica genocide to hammer the Serbs over the head with, and force Serbia into concessions, and push the propoganda that the Serbs are evil and the Bosnian muslims/Croats/albanians are all angels. The Srebrenica gives the NATO war criminals leverage over Serbia, and if Naser Oric was actually found guilty then it would show the world that he was the actual cause of what happened in Srebrenica, and it would show the world that muslim militia in Bosnia was full of fanatics, jihadists, and war criminals. If you would like to know more truth about what actually happened in the 90's, feel free to ask Bob. You're not going to get it from CNN. The truth will set you free.
Cheers!!

Just like Russia helped Serbia in the Milosevic case, by granting his wife and son who are wanted by Serbian prosecution asylum?
(Comm. Parrisson, 18 January 2012 13:24)

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Ivan,

Lavrov is the foreign minister, but foreign ministers should know where their place is at the table of world politics. You don't hear Fiji's foreign minister meddling in European affairs. Widespread and systematic abuse in Russian prisons is well documented from the time of the gulags until today. Russians have one of the cruelest and most inhumane prison systems in the world where tens of thousands of prisoners (many of them prosecuted for political reasons) die from preventable diseases, neglect, and abuse. Russia's economy is almost entirely dependent on oil and gas. Their industry has collapsed since the Soviet Union disbanded and so has their once venerated space program, even the population is shrinking. If it wasn't for their ample oil and gas resources nobody would even be thinking of Russia in global politics today. That's why it would be better for all Russian politicians to focus more on Russia's own development (increasing foreign investment for example) and leave global politics to true global powers.

Tudjman, Izetbegovic and Thaci were/are not brought to justice because US practices the following kind of attitude "They are b... of course, but they are OUR b..."

Come on Russia, come Serbia you seriously need cold showers to wake up from this rough sleep you've been having.

Severely treated? So putting monsters who killed thousands of civilians into comfortable jail cells is considered "severe treatment" by the Russians? Might I remind this foreign minister that Russians keep their defendants in cells during the trial and treat them inhumanely once they are prosecuted. Russia ranks as one of the most corrupt countries with one of the worst justice systems in the world. Mr. Lavrov should focus his energy on improving his rapidly deteriorating country instead of getting involved in world politics. The days when Russia's opinion really mattered globally are long gone and now they should focus themselves on the only area where they really do have some influence left, the Caucasus. Leave Europe to the Europeans.

Dragan, you should stop wasting your time trying to get a direct answer to a direct question they cannot answer without admitting things.
They all know how to ridicule and ask questions but when they are asked they avoid and quickly either change subject or ask more questions.

Yes, they are very, very frustrating.

"Lavrov said in Moscow on Wednesday that Russia was ready to offer Serbia assistance in Vojislav Šešelj’s case"

The democratic Serbia with her bigger and older borther Russia are proud to defend a fashist as Seselj.

Amazing.

Bob, you are not pro Serb, you clearly stated you are for selective justice against Serbs. If you were pro Serb you would also be pro truth and pro justice, which you clearly are not. Fortunately there are good, honest, decent Americans that exist like Ron Paul, and they are not all brainwashed and simplistic like you. There is hope. I do feel sorry for you and your ilk.
Cheers!!

Severely treated? So putting monsters who killed thousands of civilians into comfortable jail cells is considered "severe treatment" by the Russians? Might I remind this foreign minister that Russians keep their defendants in cells during the trial and treat them inhumanely once they are prosecuted. Russia ranks as one of the most corrupt countries with one of the worst justice systems in the world. Mr. Lavrov should focus his energy on improving his rapidly deteriorating country instead of getting involved in world politics. The days when Russia's opinion really mattered globally are long gone and now they should focus themselves on the only area where they really do have some influence left, the Caucasus. Leave Europe to the Europeans.
(Frank, 18 January 2012 20:07)

Hi Franky, you sound cranky!

Either you must be completly deluded or don't you see that Russia/China had been Alpha economies and actually lending/feeding NATO countries. Thus Russia opinion matters! I keep telling you Albos and their supporters not to piss off mother Russia. You want Serbian people to forget and move back to Caucus area! Ohh your words will become reality, instead of us going back to caucus, Caucasian brothers are going to come this way...Soon Russia will be dominant power-asia or europe will bow down to to great Tsar Putin, with Serbia by his side to rule Kosovo again. So it shall be written...it shall be done

Timber Wolf

Oh Frank yet another victim of western brain washing. Who told you the Russians treat their prisoners the way you say? CNN? And you say Lovrov should focus on improving his country. HE IS A FOREIGN MINISTER!!!! It is his job to minister foreign countries. If you took the time to think about what you said you would realize that everything you said is opinion. The facts are that Russia grew more than ever economically last year, while the EU took a huge dump on itself. By the way Russia is respected by more countries than The USA France Germany of the UK. ITs too bad everybody is too scared of stealth bombers and F22s to say it.

I am not very impressed by the 'answers' to my previous posting. Certainly no comment has 'put me in my place' despite the claims of one.

It is the Hague that has put people in the right place.

I agree that there others that could have been put before the court. More Bosnians, more Croats, more Serbs....

The point is that evidence has been presented and tested.

There were crimes committed. There is enough visually recorded general evidence of atrocity to indicate that in general witnesses are telling the truth.

As for nonsense about Milosevic being malnourished - get real. It was smoking too much that killed him.

I agree that the Seselj trial has taken too long. He should not have been allowed delaying tactics, and the prosecution should be made to work faster.

I am pro the future of Serbia. The sadness is that the terrors of the recent past of which Milosevic and his ilk were prime motivators will take a long time to forget and may never fade from memory.

I agree that the Germans and others were too quick to recognise the separating states - but that does not justify the crimes and war-crimes whereby certain criminals so dishonoured Serbia. So what if the Hague tries them? It's a good thing.

Might I remind this foreign minister that Russians keep their defendants in cells during the trial and treat them inhumanely once they are prosecuted. Russia ranks as one of the most corrupt countries with one of the worst justice systems in the world. Mr. Lavrov should focus his energy on improving his rapidly deteriorating country instead of getting involved in world politics. The days when Russia's opinion really mattered globally are long gone and now they should focus themselves on the only area where they really do have some influence left, the Caucasus. Leave Europe to the Europeans.
(Frank, 18 January 2012 20:07)

1) Lavrov is a foreign minister, so Russian justice system bad as it is isn't his business.
2) Some Europeans (Kosovo Serbs in particular) asked Russia (not Western Europe) for help, Lavrov couldn't just ignore their request. So Europeans cannot solve all European problems without Russia.

"The fact is, it is a court run by NATO and it is a sham - a kangaroo court which conducts show trials. Its whole purpose is to justify NATO's war crimes and turn the victim (Serbia) into a villain.
(Dragan, 18 January 2012 17:26)

The fact is that The Hague is set up by the UN (not by NATO) which conducts trials against individuals accused of war crimes.

HE IS A FOREIGN MINISTER!!!! It is his job to minister foreign countries.
(Ivan, 18 January 2012 20:58)

Really, I thought the job of a foriegn Minsiter was to be the countrys top diplomat and represent the countries interests abroad. I didnt realise he was supposed to 'minister' to anyone.

But then I guess you must have learned that lesson fromt Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences. Apparently they have a 'unique' curriculum in history , diplomacy and military tactics.

That would explain everything.

. You seem to think killing journalists is ok by the Geneva convention?
(Dragan, 21 January 2012 16:19)
======================================

Of course Danilo thinks it's OK, as long as the are Serbs.
We all know what the Serb haters think here so trying to get through to hem is impossible. They are not here to debate and try to see the other side but only to keep accusing and inflaming by distortion of truth and lies.

"Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated on Wednesday that Russia would insist on completion of the investigation into human organ trafficking in Kosovo. "

If he were serious, he would have done something about getting the evidence the Russians say they have to the prosecutors in the Medicus case. They requested any information the Russians might have last April - they undoubtedly asked all the countries whose citizens had been victimized. The Kommersant article says that the prosecutors have asked numerous times since then for the information the Russians say that have gathered, but the Russian Prosecutor General has been reluctant to turn it over. (Preparing his own cases against Russians involved in recruiting these people? In his place, I'd want to do that, but can't witnesses/victims testify in more than one trial?) It may not matter - victims came from all over - Belorussia, Ukraine, Moldova, Kazakhstan - some of the countries must have cooperated.

Dragan -

My point (which I think is clearly made) is that despite your protestations, you do not defend innocents. Your defence of criminals undermines Serbia. Choose better heros. The arrests are not arbitrary - those on trial have a case to answer.

The court was set up to try crimes - and that is what it does. And yes, Serbia was seen as being the major driving force in driving the criminality, so it is not a surprise that many Serbs have been prosecuted.

I would have no objection to more criminals from the other sides joining them.

The point of the Hague was to bring a message, and it is quite right that it winds up people. If you support shelling civilians, murder, ethnic cleansing, theft, rapes, beatings, etc., or those who caused or did it, then it is intended that the Hague make you uncomfortable.

I am glad those years are over, and I am glad that a form of justice is being imposed.

Bob says "Your defence of Serbia harms Serbia,"

Sure, let's keep attacking Serbia and that will be very beneficial to Serbia.
Why don't we just keep piling more and more accusations for the more we pile the better we are projecting Serbian image.

I agree that there others that could have been put before the court. More Bosnians, more Croats, more Serbs....

The point is that evidence has been presented and tested.
(Bob)

Bob, evidences don't come by themselves, they are collected during investigation time. The problem is that there are a lot of specialists, paid for investigations against Serbs, and much less if at all, hired and paid for investigations against the others.

…what direct answer do you want? - I agree about Oric.

That does not mean that those on trial at the Hague should not be there - or that it is not a good thing that they are.

No court sees all that they should - that's a fact of life. I agree that's not fair. But that does not mean that those involved in the atrocities (and who dishonoured Serbia's name in doing so) not should be put on trial. (As should those from the other sides.)

Things may not be ideal as regards the Hague and Serbia, but to be blunt, if people had not behaved with so much lack of consideration for the lives of others, this would not be necessary. In general international courts are selective - they cannot try everyone. However there are national courts, so there is no reason for others not to face prosecution.

The Hague was not set up to make Serbia happy - it was put there to stamp on evil behaviour.

I am not prepared to argue for war criminals. Those who get to the court are being tried on evidence presented and the conclusions will be written up for all to analyse. In general, they probably deserve to be there.

I still question why you are so bothered about these people. I think it is better for Serbia that they be on trial than it is that that kind of dishonourable nationalism goes unpunished.

Those people are not Serbia or decent representatives of it.

If you can't be glad that these people are on trial then go your own way. Take Peggy's advice and ignore me. However, take the point that there is another perspective that says those murders should not go unpunished.

...someone messed up.

He probably should be tried somewhere.

However, it is not very meaningful to argue from the single case to the general case.

Why are youso bothered about this? Serbia is better off without these people. Who needs the terrible reputation they created for Serbia? Is badly run politics and sustained selfish criminality what you really want to waste your life arguing for?

uh uh...

koso-albanians are called so again....not "kosovars" anymore...seselj will be back to serbia soon....

You need to ask yourself, was it acceptable to have Serbians, who lived relatively peacefully in a country one day, divided against their will another day and without negotiations?
(Zoran, 18 January 2012 16:07)

Zoran,

I have some bad news for you. This is what happens to an aggressor such as Serbia when it loses a war. Look at what happened to Germany and Japan at the end of WW II. My advice, give it another 50 or 60 years, by then people will accept the truth. So sorry to see that you are bitter, but that is what occurs when Nationalism gets out of hand, things turn out badly as you Serbs have learned.

Good luck Mr. Larov, but you have an uphill battle fighting the corrupt and unethical Western powers. It is obvious to anyone familiar with the Hague trials of the biased verdicts that were handed down - against Serbs, and in favor of the Muslims and Croats.
(PapaJohn, 18 January 2012 12:27)

A court set up by Russia, China and others is biased and is handing down verdicts against Serbs and in favor of Muslims and Croats ?! That does not sound possible.

Dragan

I am pro Serbia but anti rude ones like you. I am surprised B92 allow your level of abuse. However, I intended to rattle your cage and shake your complacency and (ha ha ho ho) I obviously succeeded.

I am anti nasty attitudes that defend criminals. Serbia has been wrecked by that stupidity and you are part of it.

Your defence of Serbia harms Serbia, and one day the message of the Hague might get through to you.

Any amount of your apparent defence does not undermine the basic cause of why the interventions took place. You may squirm, but there was reason.

By the way, I would be very happy for Tudjman to go to the Hague, but he is dead, so that cannot happen.

Dragan

If the Balkans hadn't dropped into a murderous mess NATO would not have come.

Blame Milosevic for issuing an open invitation.

I was angry before the bombing because those in Belgrade were too casual about it. It was readily avoidable if they hadn't been so stupid in the policy they pursued.

There was little fairness in the murderous and criminal (mafia as well as war-crimes) policy of Milosevic. After Bosnia, Milosevic was not going to get away with it again.

Don't be surprised that things have been stacked against Serbia since - it is no surprise given the causes!

Milosevic was known for pushing too far and not keeping to his promises. After the political tricks he repeatedly tried, it would be no surprise to me if they played him at his own game. At the time people in Belgrade were saying he was being clever in the way he handled the west, and I was saying that the man was an idiot because his lies would back-fire. And they did. Serbia paid by being by being bombed to prevent any risk of the atrocities of Bosnia being repeated in Kosovo. No one trusted him.

I view Milosevic and the nasty nationalists as traitors to Serbia. I think that they are indefensible, which is why I question the point of view that you express. To be blunt, I don't care what happens to them. I argue for a better Serbia.

Three years it took for the west to put a stop to the nonsense in Bosnia. That is why they reacted so much more quickly when it started up again in Kosovo. That was what the west thought was fair in the prevailing circumstances.

Courts are a minor issue in comparison. It may not be fair. But it is fair enough.

I agree with you on some of the points you make, but your overall argument is not strong enough to change anything. The target of the court is the dishonourable way warfare was conducted against innocents. It is selective - and Serbia takes most of the blame for feeding the war and encouraging murderous policies. If that is wrong, then argue from the perspective of Serbia's honourable and legitimate claims, not from a basis of defending war criminals. Also, it is counter productive to attack those in the west who have the power to change things (or not). Milosevic made that mistake when he made anti-Americanism a cornerstone of his home propaganda. It works to get you elected locally, but messes the country up internationally.

I think it better to construct a more intelligent, positive and pragmatic policy for the future.

That policy means understanding how badly the war in Bosnia ruined Serbia's reputation in the eyes of the world.

Dragon and Peggy

You deliberately misuse my point about selectivity. International courts are selective - that is because they always have to be high profile and they target the percieved leading trouble makers. Even if the court should go more for non Serbs (which I agreed it should - although they won't get Tudjman because he is dead(!)), that does not mean that those Serbs who are there should not be there.

You represent your nationalistic view as being 'pro Serbia'. You do not own Serbia. Your view has done damage to Serbia through war, criminality, bigotry and murder. You defend criminals. Serbia deserves better. Serbia was dragged down into your way of thinking, but hopefully now you have had your day and Serbia will escape you. Because of the policies you espouse, Serbia was treated as if it were a child. Serbia needed to be lead by people with a better understanding of what will work as opposed to what invites trouble and defeat.

There are more mature forms of politics and diplomacy. Whinging is just boring. Do you really expect other countries to respond positively to selfish nationalists who always blame everyone else but themselves and refuse to comprehend their own role in the violence that hurts other people?

I defend the Serbia of decent people who work hard, like to raise a glass and who detest the violence. Those are the ones that the world should know about. Not the nasty minority that include the likes of Mladic, Karadic and the other thugs. Serbia/Yugoslavia had a good reputation after WW2. Ask yourself why did it lose it?

Also ask yourself how it can get it back.

"murdering janitors and make-up staff at the RTS building"

people are still peddling this crap? NATO said the building was going to get bombed and RTS director ordered the workers to stay so they'd get killed so you would have the opportunity to post your outrage here.

He's in jail now for this crime, isn't he?

this:
[link]
Quit spreading lies and propoganda that the Hague is fair and just, anyone with half a brain can see that it is a court run by NATO war criminals who are scared to death of the truth getting out.
(Dragan, 20 January 2012 15:23)

Dragan,

No one is fooled by the poor "PhotoShop" job done in the phoney link you provided. It has been disproved many times. Stop being so pathetic and own up to your Serb war crimes.

This is not a just a question of fairness to states - these are trials of individuals. Whether there is proportionality is of some significance, but the main point is that criminal individuals have been tried and appropriately found guilty in several cases. Those who have been found guilty had direct evidence on which they were convicted and they deserved to be tried.

This particular court was set up because of particular things that were happening in Yugoslavia for which there was no active legal process to counter the terrible and unthinkable things that were being done to innocent civilians in the face of the international community.

The behaviour of people like Mladic and Karadic has dragged the name of Serbia very low in the eyes of the world community - and people like Seselj who stirred up the hatred that fed the war are as also seen in terms of the evil that represents. Milosevic became known as a butcher.

It does no good for Serbia in the eyes of the world for people to try to defend the behaviour of these people - it was unacceptable for the world community.

Whinging about proportionality is no defence of that behaviour either.

The whiners love to attack the west, NATO, etc., and I am sure that a few Russians will join in that game too.

I am not saying that the west has done everything right. I am saying that Serbia has suffered greatly because of unconstrained nationalism that turned into criminality and lead to the Serbian people having to suffer sanctions etc., because of the poor standard of nationalistic politics from that era.

I am also saying that trying to defend these people or whinging about their treatment just compounds the belief that many still have that Serbia is 'not there yet' and is still stuck in an unacceptable past.

That said - this trial is taking too long!!

Good luck Mr. Larov, but you have an uphill battle fighting the corrupt and unethical Western powers. It is obvious to anyone familiar with the Hague trials of the biased verdicts that were handed down - against Serbs, and in favor of the Muslims and Croats. The Seselj trial is a complete fiasco. How can the Hague tribunal keep a straight face and call themselves an honorable world court? For God's sake, the Nuremberg Trials lasted four years, and the Hague cannot try Seleslj, one man in how many now, seven? I applaud Russia for exposing this hoax of a world court, and the dishonorable nations that stand behind it.

Just like Russia helped Serbia in the Milosevic case, by granting his wife and son who are wanted by Serbian prosecution asylum?

Come on Russia, come Serbia you seriously need cold showers to wake up from this rough sleep you've been having.

I am not very impressed by the 'answers' to my previous posting. Certainly no comment has 'put me in my place' despite the claims of one.

It is the Hague that has put people in the right place.

I agree that there others that could have been put before the court. More Bosnians, more Croats, more Serbs....

The point is that evidence has been presented and tested.

There were crimes committed. There is enough visually recorded general evidence of atrocity to indicate that in general witnesses are telling the truth.

As for nonsense about Milosevic being malnourished - get real. It was smoking too much that killed him.

I agree that the Seselj trial has taken too long. He should not have been allowed delaying tactics, and the prosecution should be made to work faster.

I am pro the future of Serbia. The sadness is that the terrors of the recent past of which Milosevic and his ilk were prime motivators will take a long time to forget and may never fade from memory.

I agree that the Germans and others were too quick to recognise the separating states - but that does not justify the crimes and war-crimes whereby certain criminals so dishonoured Serbia. So what if the Hague tries them? It's a good thing.

Dragan -

My point (which I think is clearly made) is that despite your protestations, you do not defend innocents. Your defence of criminals undermines Serbia. Choose better heros. The arrests are not arbitrary - those on trial have a case to answer.

The court was set up to try crimes - and that is what it does. And yes, Serbia was seen as being the major driving force in driving the criminality, so it is not a surprise that many Serbs have been prosecuted.

I would have no objection to more criminals from the other sides joining them.

The point of the Hague was to bring a message, and it is quite right that it winds up people. If you support shelling civilians, murder, ethnic cleansing, theft, rapes, beatings, etc., or those who caused or did it, then it is intended that the Hague make you uncomfortable.

I am glad those years are over, and I am glad that a form of justice is being imposed.

Just like Russia helped Serbia in the Milosevic case, by granting his wife and son who are wanted by Serbian prosecution asylum?
(Comm. Parrisson, 18 January 2012 13:24)

I couldn't have said it better myself.

...someone messed up.

He probably should be tried somewhere.

However, it is not very meaningful to argue from the single case to the general case.

Why are youso bothered about this? Serbia is better off without these people. Who needs the terrible reputation they created for Serbia? Is badly run politics and sustained selfish criminality what you really want to waste your life arguing for?

Good luck Mr. Larov, but you have an uphill battle fighting the corrupt and unethical Western powers. It is obvious to anyone familiar with the Hague trials of the biased verdicts that were handed down - against Serbs, and in favor of the Muslims and Croats. The Seselj trial is a complete fiasco. How can the Hague tribunal keep a straight face and call themselves an honorable world court? For God's sake, the Nuremberg Trials lasted four years, and the Hague cannot try Seleslj, one man in how many now, seven? I applaud Russia for exposing this hoax of a world court, and the dishonorable nations that stand behind it.
(PapaJohn, 18 January 2012 12:27)
Russia exposing injustice, isn't that an oxymoron.
You notice Russia is offering its support when the trial is at its end, just like yesterday the announcement of their investigation into the medicus case (which they have not turned any evidence over to EULEX) and the trial is in its conclusion phase. Sounds like a lot of hype for the papers and Serbian ears and not much substance.

HE IS A FOREIGN MINISTER!!!! It is his job to minister foreign countries.
(Ivan, 18 January 2012 20:58)

Really, I thought the job of a foriegn Minsiter was to be the countrys top diplomat and represent the countries interests abroad. I didnt realise he was supposed to 'minister' to anyone.

But then I guess you must have learned that lesson fromt Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences. Apparently they have a 'unique' curriculum in history , diplomacy and military tactics.

That would explain everything.

…what direct answer do you want? - I agree about Oric.

That does not mean that those on trial at the Hague should not be there - or that it is not a good thing that they are.

No court sees all that they should - that's a fact of life. I agree that's not fair. But that does not mean that those involved in the atrocities (and who dishonoured Serbia's name in doing so) not should be put on trial. (As should those from the other sides.)

Things may not be ideal as regards the Hague and Serbia, but to be blunt, if people had not behaved with so much lack of consideration for the lives of others, this would not be necessary. In general international courts are selective - they cannot try everyone. However there are national courts, so there is no reason for others not to face prosecution.

The Hague was not set up to make Serbia happy - it was put there to stamp on evil behaviour.

I am not prepared to argue for war criminals. Those who get to the court are being tried on evidence presented and the conclusions will be written up for all to analyse. In general, they probably deserve to be there.

I still question why you are so bothered about these people. I think it is better for Serbia that they be on trial than it is that that kind of dishonourable nationalism goes unpunished.

Those people are not Serbia or decent representatives of it.

If you can't be glad that these people are on trial then go your own way. Take Peggy's advice and ignore me. However, take the point that there is another perspective that says those murders should not go unpunished.

I am also saying that trying to defend these people or whinging about their treatment just compounds the belief that many still have that Serbia is 'not there yet' and is still stuck in an unacceptable past.
(Bob, 18 January 2012 14:38)
--
Who are these "many" that still think "Serbia is not there yet"? Could it be the same people that prematurely recognised Croatia and Slovenia, leading to war in the former YU? The same people that went ahead with pushing independence for BiH even after being warned it would lead to war? Or perhaps the same people that aided Croatian nationalists to commit genocide once again in Krajina. You know, the same people that helped Albanian nationalists and terrorists commit genocide yet again in KiM?

Let me tell you something bob, we will never "be there". We weren't there for the Ottomans or the Austro-Hungarians. We weren't there for the NAZIs and we won't be there for NATO either.

You need to ask yourself, was it acceptable to have Serbians, who lived relatively peacefully in a country one day, divided against their will another day and without negotiations?

Severely treated? So putting monsters who killed thousands of civilians into comfortable jail cells is considered "severe treatment" by the Russians? Might I remind this foreign minister that Russians keep their defendants in cells during the trial and treat them inhumanely once they are prosecuted. Russia ranks as one of the most corrupt countries with one of the worst justice systems in the world. Mr. Lavrov should focus his energy on improving his rapidly deteriorating country instead of getting involved in world politics. The days when Russia's opinion really mattered globally are long gone and now they should focus themselves on the only area where they really do have some influence left, the Caucasus. Leave Europe to the Europeans.
(Frank, 18 January 2012 20:07)

Hi Franky, you sound cranky!

Either you must be completly deluded or don't you see that Russia/China had been Alpha economies and actually lending/feeding NATO countries. Thus Russia opinion matters! I keep telling you Albos and their supporters not to piss off mother Russia. You want Serbian people to forget and move back to Caucus area! Ohh your words will become reality, instead of us going back to caucus, Caucasian brothers are going to come this way...Soon Russia will be dominant power-asia or europe will bow down to to great Tsar Putin, with Serbia by his side to rule Kosovo again. So it shall be written...it shall be done

Timber Wolf

"Those who have been found guilty had direct evidence on which they were convicted and they deserved to be tried."

Not true Bob as many have been convicted on the "testimony" of perjurers - simply a person or persons' claims and no real hard evidence such as autopsy reports.
And several Serbs have died in custody under mysterious circumstances - some after years of medical neglect.

Dragan

If the Balkans hadn't dropped into a murderous mess NATO would not have come.

Blame Milosevic for issuing an open invitation.

I was angry before the bombing because those in Belgrade were too casual about it. It was readily avoidable if they hadn't been so stupid in the policy they pursued.

There was little fairness in the murderous and criminal (mafia as well as war-crimes) policy of Milosevic. After Bosnia, Milosevic was not going to get away with it again.

Don't be surprised that things have been stacked against Serbia since - it is no surprise given the causes!

Milosevic was known for pushing too far and not keeping to his promises. After the political tricks he repeatedly tried, it would be no surprise to me if they played him at his own game. At the time people in Belgrade were saying he was being clever in the way he handled the west, and I was saying that the man was an idiot because his lies would back-fire. And they did. Serbia paid by being by being bombed to prevent any risk of the atrocities of Bosnia being repeated in Kosovo. No one trusted him.

I view Milosevic and the nasty nationalists as traitors to Serbia. I think that they are indefensible, which is why I question the point of view that you express. To be blunt, I don't care what happens to them. I argue for a better Serbia.

Three years it took for the west to put a stop to the nonsense in Bosnia. That is why they reacted so much more quickly when it started up again in Kosovo. That was what the west thought was fair in the prevailing circumstances.

Courts are a minor issue in comparison. It may not be fair. But it is fair enough.

I agree with you on some of the points you make, but your overall argument is not strong enough to change anything. The target of the court is the dishonourable way warfare was conducted against innocents. It is selective - and Serbia takes most of the blame for feeding the war and encouraging murderous policies. If that is wrong, then argue from the perspective of Serbia's honourable and legitimate claims, not from a basis of defending war criminals. Also, it is counter productive to attack those in the west who have the power to change things (or not). Milosevic made that mistake when he made anti-Americanism a cornerstone of his home propaganda. It works to get you elected locally, but messes the country up internationally.

I think it better to construct a more intelligent, positive and pragmatic policy for the future.

That policy means understanding how badly the war in Bosnia ruined Serbia's reputation in the eyes of the world.

It does no good for Serbia in the eyes of the world for people to try to defend the behaviour of these people - it was unacceptable for the world community.

Whinging about proportionality is no defence of that behaviour either.

The whiners love to attack the west, NATO, etc., and I am sure that a few Russians will join in that game too.


You are very disillusioned. You watch too much cnn. Everything you are basing your opinions on is complete malarky. They dont even know why they are have Seselj on trial. They know its for war crimes and thats it. Meanwhile people like Obric are pardoned, so naturally we need to talkl about favoritism and corruption. The mouths of all the Serb generals and the former president must be silenced and discredited, so y ou create a special court to try these so called "monsters". Milosevic couldnt be convicted legally so instead he was illegally killed by the hague slowly through mal nourishment. THis court is dispicable, and as Lavrov said the Nuremburg trials only lasted 4 years, i would say those trials were of much higher magnitude.

"Lavrov said in Moscow on Wednesday that Russia was ready to offer Serbia assistance in Vojislav Šešelj’s case"

The democratic Serbia with her bigger and older borther Russia are proud to defend a fashist as Seselj.

Amazing.

Might I remind this foreign minister that Russians keep their defendants in cells during the trial and treat them inhumanely once they are prosecuted. Russia ranks as one of the most corrupt countries with one of the worst justice systems in the world. Mr. Lavrov should focus his energy on improving his rapidly deteriorating country instead of getting involved in world politics. The days when Russia's opinion really mattered globally are long gone and now they should focus themselves on the only area where they really do have some influence left, the Caucasus. Leave Europe to the Europeans.
(Frank, 18 January 2012 20:07)

1) Lavrov is a foreign minister, so Russian justice system bad as it is isn't his business.
2) Some Europeans (Kosovo Serbs in particular) asked Russia (not Western Europe) for help, Lavrov couldn't just ignore their request. So Europeans cannot solve all European problems without Russia.

Dragan

I am pro Serbia but anti rude ones like you. I am surprised B92 allow your level of abuse. However, I intended to rattle your cage and shake your complacency and (ha ha ho ho) I obviously succeeded.

I am anti nasty attitudes that defend criminals. Serbia has been wrecked by that stupidity and you are part of it.

Your defence of Serbia harms Serbia, and one day the message of the Hague might get through to you.

Any amount of your apparent defence does not undermine the basic cause of why the interventions took place. You may squirm, but there was reason.

By the way, I would be very happy for Tudjman to go to the Hague, but he is dead, so that cannot happen.

No itsmore like how NO kla memebers ever even went to the haugue due to nato protection. i think thats alot more significant

Zoran, thanks for that perfect answer to Bob. You certainly have put him in his place. The problem with the Bobs of the world is that they think that the Hague is a real court. The fact is, it is a court run by NATO and it is a sham - a kangaroo court which conducts show trials. Its whole purpose is to justify NATO's war crimes and turn the victim (Serbia) into a villain. It is a disgusting monstrocity that should not be recognized by anyone.
I just have one question for Bob. If the Hague is an impartial court, then why in the world did they release Naser Oric despite clear overwhelming evidence of his war crimes?

"Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated on Wednesday that Russia would insist on completion of the investigation into human organ trafficking in Kosovo. "

If he were serious, he would have done something about getting the evidence the Russians say they have to the prosecutors in the Medicus case. They requested any information the Russians might have last April - they undoubtedly asked all the countries whose citizens had been victimized. The Kommersant article says that the prosecutors have asked numerous times since then for the information the Russians say that have gathered, but the Russian Prosecutor General has been reluctant to turn it over. (Preparing his own cases against Russians involved in recruiting these people? In his place, I'd want to do that, but can't witnesses/victims testify in more than one trial?) It may not matter - victims came from all over - Belorussia, Ukraine, Moldova, Kazakhstan - some of the countries must have cooperated.

Oh Frank yet another victim of western brain washing. Who told you the Russians treat their prisoners the way you say? CNN? And you say Lovrov should focus on improving his country. HE IS A FOREIGN MINISTER!!!! It is his job to minister foreign countries. If you took the time to think about what you said you would realize that everything you said is opinion. The facts are that Russia grew more than ever economically last year, while the EU took a huge dump on itself. By the way Russia is respected by more countries than The USA France Germany of the UK. ITs too bad everybody is too scared of stealth bombers and F22s to say it.

Tudjman, Izetbegovic and Thaci were/are not brought to justice because US practices the following kind of attitude "They are b... of course, but they are OUR b..."

"murdering janitors and make-up staff at the RTS building"

people are still peddling this crap? NATO said the building was going to get bombed and RTS director ordered the workers to stay so they'd get killed so you would have the opportunity to post your outrage here.

He's in jail now for this crime, isn't he?

this:
[link]
Quit spreading lies and propoganda that the Hague is fair and just, anyone with half a brain can see that it is a court run by NATO war criminals who are scared to death of the truth getting out.
(Dragan, 20 January 2012 15:23)

Dragan,

No one is fooled by the poor "PhotoShop" job done in the phoney link you provided. It has been disproved many times. Stop being so pathetic and own up to your Serb war crimes.

Severely treated? So putting monsters who killed thousands of civilians into comfortable jail cells is considered "severe treatment" by the Russians? Might I remind this foreign minister that Russians keep their defendants in cells during the trial and treat them inhumanely once they are prosecuted. Russia ranks as one of the most corrupt countries with one of the worst justice systems in the world. Mr. Lavrov should focus his energy on improving his rapidly deteriorating country instead of getting involved in world politics. The days when Russia's opinion really mattered globally are long gone and now they should focus themselves on the only area where they really do have some influence left, the Caucasus. Leave Europe to the Europeans.

Bob,

1) Milosevic died at Hague, while Tudjmana and Izetbegovic were not brought to justice. Do you think it's just?
2) Hague tribunal accused Serbs of criminal military strategy. do you believe it is tribunal's business to judge on military strategy?
3) The same crimes committed by different ethnic groups are treated differently by the tribunal - in case of Serbs the tribunal declares that the crimes were planned state official policy, while in case of the other ethnic groups it is considered that just several radicals got out of hand. Do you think it is just?

You need to ask yourself, was it acceptable to have Serbians, who lived relatively peacefully in a country one day, divided against their will another day and without negotiations?
(Zoran, 18 January 2012 16:07)

Zoran,

I have some bad news for you. This is what happens to an aggressor such as Serbia when it loses a war. Look at what happened to Germany and Japan at the end of WW II. My advice, give it another 50 or 60 years, by then people will accept the truth. So sorry to see that you are bitter, but that is what occurs when Nationalism gets out of hand, things turn out badly as you Serbs have learned.

"The fact is, it is a court run by NATO and it is a sham - a kangaroo court which conducts show trials. Its whole purpose is to justify NATO's war crimes and turn the victim (Serbia) into a villain.
(Dragan, 18 January 2012 17:26)

The fact is that The Hague is set up by the UN (not by NATO) which conducts trials against individuals accused of war crimes.

uh uh...

koso-albanians are called so again....not "kosovars" anymore...seselj will be back to serbia soon....

Bob,

Thanks for avoiding the question. So I will ask you again, if the Hague is indeed impartial as you suggest, then why in the world did they release the worst war criminal of the wars, Naser Oric, despite overwhelming evidence?
http://vostaniserbie.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/no-justice-in-the-west/
http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2011/06/06/bosnian-muslim-mass-murderer-naser-orics-greatest-hits/

Oric showed video footage to Bill Schiller of the Toronto Star of his 'greatest hits', which included unspeakable attrocities, such as severed heads of Serbs. So I want an answer Bob, all Serbs want an answer, why would an impartial court release such a monster?
I will answer for you since I know you can't answer that question. It is because the Hague is an anti-Serb Kangaroo court, a show trial, meant to whitewash the war crimes of NATO and their stooges (Croats, albanians, Bosnian muslims), and to turn the victims (Serbs) into villains. Once again Bob, we are right, and you are wrong.
Cheers!!

I agree that there others that could have been put before the court. More Bosnians, more Croats, more Serbs....

The point is that evidence has been presented and tested.
(Bob)

Bob, evidences don't come by themselves, they are collected during investigation time. The problem is that there are a lot of specialists, paid for investigations against Serbs, and much less if at all, hired and paid for investigations against the others.

Good luck Mr. Larov, but you have an uphill battle fighting the corrupt and unethical Western powers. It is obvious to anyone familiar with the Hague trials of the biased verdicts that were handed down - against Serbs, and in favor of the Muslims and Croats.
(PapaJohn, 18 January 2012 12:27)

A court set up by Russia, China and others is biased and is handing down verdicts against Serbs and in favor of Muslims and Croats ?! That does not sound possible.

Dragon and Peggy

You deliberately misuse my point about selectivity. International courts are selective - that is because they always have to be high profile and they target the percieved leading trouble makers. Even if the court should go more for non Serbs (which I agreed it should - although they won't get Tudjman because he is dead(!)), that does not mean that those Serbs who are there should not be there.

You represent your nationalistic view as being 'pro Serbia'. You do not own Serbia. Your view has done damage to Serbia through war, criminality, bigotry and murder. You defend criminals. Serbia deserves better. Serbia was dragged down into your way of thinking, but hopefully now you have had your day and Serbia will escape you. Because of the policies you espouse, Serbia was treated as if it were a child. Serbia needed to be lead by people with a better understanding of what will work as opposed to what invites trouble and defeat.

There are more mature forms of politics and diplomacy. Whinging is just boring. Do you really expect other countries to respond positively to selfish nationalists who always blame everyone else but themselves and refuse to comprehend their own role in the violence that hurts other people?

I defend the Serbia of decent people who work hard, like to raise a glass and who detest the violence. Those are the ones that the world should know about. Not the nasty minority that include the likes of Mladic, Karadic and the other thugs. Serbia/Yugoslavia had a good reputation after WW2. Ask yourself why did it lose it?

Also ask yourself how it can get it back.

Ivan,

Lavrov is the foreign minister, but foreign ministers should know where their place is at the table of world politics. You don't hear Fiji's foreign minister meddling in European affairs. Widespread and systematic abuse in Russian prisons is well documented from the time of the gulags until today. Russians have one of the cruelest and most inhumane prison systems in the world where tens of thousands of prisoners (many of them prosecuted for political reasons) die from preventable diseases, neglect, and abuse. Russia's economy is almost entirely dependent on oil and gas. Their industry has collapsed since the Soviet Union disbanded and so has their once venerated space program, even the population is shrinking. If it wasn't for their ample oil and gas resources nobody would even be thinking of Russia in global politics today. That's why it would be better for all Russian politicians to focus more on Russia's own development (increasing foreign investment for example) and leave global politics to true global powers.

...someone messed up.

He probably should be tried somewhere.

However, it is not very meaningful to argue from the single case to the general case.

(Bob, 19 January 2012 20:48)

Wow, is that the best you could do Bob? Someone messed up?? Wow. Well Bob, I don't buy your ridiculous argument that someone 'messed up' when there is video evidence of attrocities which Oric bragged about to western reporters. Do you think O.J. Simpson would be walking around freely today if there were video evidence of himself murdering Nicole Brown? Your argument is laughable.
I will tell you the real reason why that disgusting war criminal Oric was released. Because the NATO war criminals (who control that kangaroo court) do not want the truth to get out - the truth is that Oric's beheading of Serbs, his brutal killings of women and children in the villages around Srebrenica, is the very reason that the revenge killings by the Serbs happened! I might add that the Serbs did not ever kill women and children, and were only looking for revenge for their friends and relatives who were mutilated by Oric and his gang of war criminals. This is the truth about Srebrenica, and it would shed light on the sham, the lie, tha is repeated in the western media that Srebrenica is genocide. The west uses the Srebrenica genocide to hammer the Serbs over the head with, and force Serbia into concessions, and push the propoganda that the Serbs are evil and the Bosnian muslims/Croats/albanians are all angels. The Srebrenica gives the NATO war criminals leverage over Serbia, and if Naser Oric was actually found guilty then it would show the world that he was the actual cause of what happened in Srebrenica, and it would show the world that muslim militia in Bosnia was full of fanatics, jihadists, and war criminals. If you would like to know more truth about what actually happened in the 90's, feel free to ask Bob. You're not going to get it from CNN. The truth will set you free.
Cheers!!

However, take the point that there is another perspective that says those murders should not go unpunished.
(Bob, 20 January 2012 14:37)

I agree, murdurere should not go unpunished. Therefore, the initiators of the illegal and criminal bombing of Serbia for 78 days around the clock should not go unpunished, right Bob? Madeline Albright, Wesley Clark, Tony Bliar, Bombardier Bill Clinton, Javier Solana....Why are they not even tried at the Hague despite overwhelming evidence. Cluster bombs in market places, bombing power plants, cigarette factories, murdering janitors and make-up staff at the RTS building, poisoning Serbia with depleted uranium, bombing every civilian target imaginable.....you name it, they bombed it and killed thousands of innocents all based on teh fake and orchestrated 'Racak massacre' which everyone knows is a sham.
Yes, but the Hague will never try these people will they Bob, because the Hague was created by these very same war criminals. These are show trials Bob, this is a kangaroo court, and it has nothing to do with truth and justice - this is a fact. I know it because they released the man who is responsible for this:
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=232
Quit spreading lies and propoganda that the Hague is fair and just, anyone with half a brain can see that it is a court run by NATO war criminals who are scared to death of the truth getting out.

Bob,

Again, you avoided the question. Again, I am asking, if your Hague is impartial as you claim, then why did they release a war criminal like Naser Oric, with such clear and overwhelming evidence? Answer the question please. I don't want another long winded diatribe about the war and its causes. I just want a simple answer from you on the Oric case.
Cheers!!

Dragan, you should stop wasting your time trying to get a direct answer to a direct question they cannot answer without admitting things.
They all know how to ridicule and ask questions but when they are asked they avoid and quickly either change subject or ask more questions.

Yes, they are very, very frustrating.

Bob, you are not pro Serb, you clearly stated you are for selective justice against Serbs. If you were pro Serb you would also be pro truth and pro justice, which you clearly are not. Fortunately there are good, honest, decent Americans that exist like Ron Paul, and they are not all brainwashed and simplistic like you. There is hope. I do feel sorry for you and your ilk.
Cheers!!

Bob says "Your defence of Serbia harms Serbia,"

Sure, let's keep attacking Serbia and that will be very beneficial to Serbia.
Why don't we just keep piling more and more accusations for the more we pile the better we are projecting Serbian image.

. You seem to think killing journalists is ok by the Geneva convention?
(Dragan, 21 January 2012 16:19)
======================================

Of course Danilo thinks it's OK, as long as the are Serbs.
We all know what the Serb haters think here so trying to get through to hem is impossible. They are not here to debate and try to see the other side but only to keep accusing and inflaming by distortion of truth and lies.

Bob, thanks for admitting that the Hague executes 'selective justice'. You seem to think that is ok, but it is clearly not ok. It is the reason that it is a sham, a kangaroo court, and these are show trials. You also have the simplistic view that Milosevic is responsible for everything. Not a word about the holocaust denier Tudjman, who was reinstituting Ustashe policies in Croatia, and there is proof that the Croats were planning for war for years before. At least you have exposed yourself for what you are, which is an anti-Serb one sided blowhard, who likes to ignore the facts and apply 'selective justice' when it suits him. People like you are the reason everyone hates Americans. Yugoslavia was a disaster because of people like you - with stupid, short sighted, simplistic, and one sided policies. You seem to have ignored any atrocities against Serbs in your argument, as if they didn't exist, and as if Jasenoac didn't happen. You probably think the other US sponsored genocide, Operation Storm, is ok. You are pathetic. History will show that the West had disastrous leaders in the 90's who caused an absolute mess with their anti-Serb policies. Until this changes, it will remain a mess.

Danilo,
So if a robber warns you that he is going to rob your house tomorrow, and you stay to defend it and he kills you, you are the one responsible? Another ridiculous, and laughable argument. Only a simpleton fool would blame Milosevic for the murder of the RTS staff, and not blame the war criminals dropping the bombs. You seem to think killing journalists is ok by the Geneva convention?