Tadić: Solution for Kosovo in international arena

Serbia has to deal with his past. I have tried to tell the Serbians here on this site a few times, that they should try to approach the problems they are facing after the awful and inexcuble Milosovic year in a simlar way to find peace with themselves and with their neighbors. Nothing but a full and open discussion in the serbian society will help. All nationlistic views and fingerpointing won't help. Kids in school have to learn that what happened back than and understand it was wrong and inexcusable. They have to learn about the massacres of Screbriniza, and so many other wrong and horrible things which were conducted in the name of a greater Serbia. That is how Germany approached their past, and it made it a better country, where anything like what they did in the past can never happen again. The same approach can only help Serbia to overcome its past and find find a new and better future.

Well Dragan, I strongly object to your repeated false accusations on this site that I have an albanien lover. This is pretty low, and to come up with false crap like that speaks for itself. How low do you want to go, and it disqualifies anything u want to say. I at least have the courage to show my real name here, and you hide behind some probabbly false name. and I strongly object to this kind of journalistic behaviour. Me as a german, who is fully aware of what was done in the name of the country I was borne in, and who condemns the unspeakable crime committed by Germany, also have the right to try and show other nationalities whos governments did similar things that there is a way out of this dilema, and that is deal with it in an open way. Face your past, and learn something from it. That is all I am trying to say. I am not in any way against Serbia or Serbians, I just want to help them to find peace with themselves and their neighbors, and comments like yours Dragan show that some people still have to learn a lot.

Willi Pfaff, 11 January 2012 11:18)

You’re comparing Serbs with the Germans, a people who caused the death of 50 million and SYSTEMATICALLY exterminated “subhumans” such as Jews, Slavs, Roma and other” racially impure”.
The Germans killed all undesirables, men, women, children, young and old – ALL . They even had death camps to speed up the process and left no one alive, now that is GENOCIDE mate.
In Kosovo NATO killed more Albanians dropping bombs everywhere and then blaming Milosevic for those deaths. NATO did’nt give a s… about the population as they were dying for the greater good.
These westerns who believe everything the media tell them and they think they are experts. Why don’t we see your media playing over and over Donald Rumsfeld on TV every night where his is shaking hands with Saddam Hussein and giving him chemicals to kill the Kurds?????
Wake up and stop posting nonsense.
(sj, 11 January 2012 12:15)

well, SJ, try to rember that the genoside conducted in the name of Serbia all over the balcans was the first time that anything like that happened in Europe since WWII. Screbrinca, and a lot more is comaparable to what the Germans did in WWII, even to point how they tried to depose of the people they killed. Rember what happened at the Trepco mines. I don't want to blame all the serbian people, because they follwed the some madman, just like the Germans did, and I do not want to put it on the same level as what the Germans did either, because that certainly was a lot worse, but it still is comparable. That is what the serbian public should start realizing, and it would help them to go on living in peace with itself and its neighbors.

sj

He said Serbs have to face up to their crimes and admit them. Many on this forum deny Srebrencia ever happened. Many deny that the Albanians of Kosovo were expelled at gun point in their hundreds of thousands. Many flat out reject that the Banja Luka republic was engaged in systematic ethnic cleansing of its Croat inhabitants. These are all well documented cases of crimes committed by Serbs in the name of Serbia (for many here Mladic is a hero still). Its true, sorry

Special guarantees for Serbs? What for? Should they be given more rights than other people now? They will be given the same legal rights as any other citizen of Kosovo. What kind of special guarantees do they want? Do the Albanians in Presheva enjoy special guarantees? Did the Albanians of Kosovo enjoy special rights during the 90's? Special guarantees....deary me

BELGRADE -- Serbian President Boris Tadić says the Kosovo problem needs a creative solution that would satisfy interests of Serbs, Albanians and interests of great powers. Boris the interests of great powers is for the Albanians bend over and you kiss them wear the sun don't shine. You Serbs had your chances and blew them royally murderously genocidaly. Nobody trusts the Serbs anymore it is out of sheer human civility that your neighbours try to get along with Serbs Serbia. Any thing else Serbia and Serbs try will not wash people have learned their lesson so well from Serbia's criminal war pogroms. With Serb inspired and Serbian orchestrated planed by destroying ,murdering ,ethnic cleansing ,raping ,stealing ,coveting etc. Maybe in a 100 years or sooner if the Serbs show genuine repentance and change of character now all your neighbours international community are on guard and rightfully so. By Serbs true actions ,deeds we only now get subterfuge lies thievery and continuation of your past Serb criminal leadership. In to the present Serb leadership well documented definitely not earned your close neighbours trust.

Willi Pfaf - as a German with albanian lovers you are the last person on earth to accuse the Serbs of some 'genocide'. The Serbs are in fact the victims of genocide at the hands of those you support. It seems you like to accuse the victims of genocide of war crimes, this way you hide the truth of what really happened - Operation Storm, and the systematic ethnic cleansing of every Serbian citizen from Kosovo by your albanian friends. Quit spreading your hate propoganda on here, the Trepca mine shaft story was proven to be pure garbage. You should be ashamed.

Another day, another anti Serbian rant eh Lenard?

Let me make one clear to you. I am a Serbian citizen and I certainly don't repent to the likes of you. Why? Because you, a nationalist, regardless of nationality, are the one that should be repenting to me, because it was you, your mirror image in Serbia, Croatia etc that bears responsiblity for what happened in the first place in the former Jugoslavija.

The majority of oridinary people in the former Jugoslavija were not nationalists and we were driven to war by leaders and the hysterical cheerleaders , nationalist cheerleaders. You are obsessed with Serbs, obsessed with the past, obsessed with the idea of being a victim, obsessed with the idea of villans and angels - exactly the type of thinking that got us into the mess. I, who opposed this thinking all along, believe there is little difference between people, think that we should look to the future and work to the mutual benefit of all the people living in the Balkans. Despite the past, we have a bond, and owe it to our children to move forward and not to encourage hatred and ethnic stereotyping.

As for Tadic's statement, I don't particularly believe it. He is probably just saying all of this to do his usual thing - to try to keep the internationals happy. Of course by doing this not only does he make nobody happy, but worse than that it appears he does not believe in any thing.

BELGRADE -- Serbian President Boris Tadić says the Kosovo problem needs a creative solution that would satisfy interests of Serbs, Albanians and interests of great powers. Boris the interests of great powers is for the Albanians bend over and you kiss them wear the sun don't shine. You Serbs had your chances and blew them royally murderously genocidaly. Nobody trusts the Serbs anymore it is out of sheer human civility that your neighbours try to get along with Serbs Serbia. Any thing else Serbia and Serbs try will not wash people have learned their lesson so well from Serbia's criminal war pogroms. With Serb inspired and Serbian orchestrated planed by destroying ,murdering ,ethnic cleansing ,raping ,stealing ,coveting etc. Maybe in a 100 years or sooner if the Serbs show genuine repentance and change of character now all your neighbours international community are on guard and rightfully so. By Serbs true actions ,deeds we only now get subterfuge lies thievery and continuation of your past Serb criminal leadership. In to the present Serb leadership well documented definitely not earned your close neighbours trust.
(Lenard, 11 January 2012 10:24)

Ah put a sock in it Lenard will you for God's sake. When it comes to lecturing others about human rights, war crimes, repetence and reconciliation, Croatian nationalists like you are the last people in the world to start pointing the finger. Need I remind everyone about the 'exploits' of the NDH and Operation Storm.

“We need to find allies in this process. This problem has been internationalized and so we need to find a solution in the international field. The Kosovo issue is essentially decided by the great powers, the members of the Security Council, plus Germany,” Tadić told weekly Nedeljnik. '

Is that what Merkel told you to say ? Why Germany? This is sovereign Serbian soil, and we have most of the world on our side. Germany is responsible for unspeakable war crimes on Serbian soil, so they should not even be allowed to have an army, and should definitely not have been allowed back on Serbian soil. To say that Germaany should have a say in what happens in Kosovo is high treason by Tadic and his yellow traitors. This is an internal matter, because Kosovo is Serbia under international law. Tadic's treason gets more desperate day by day. It's like watching a slow train wreck.

Garbage...even if true...it is immaterial. Wasn't there a recent protest in Presheva valley about granting the use of Albanian languages in schools? Why don't you grant them special rights about that? Wasn't a man sentenced for 10 days in prison for bringing down a Serbian flag on 28 Novemeber? Why don't you give them special rights about that? Special for Serbs? Forget it, equal rights yes, special rights...why?

Ivan

Explain to me why there were bodies of dead Albanians found INSIDE Serbia proper. Go ahead. It is becasue of attitudes like yours that we want nothing to do with Serbia, they actually have the nerve to accuse people of faking deaths, griviences and sufferings. I'm glad that the bloody hand of Serbia is off from Kosovo for good., Yeah, Albanian sufferings were staged, Serb ones on the other hand are genuine

'How low do you want to go, and it disqualifies anything u want to say.'

I am not the one accusing a nation of a fictitious 'genocide'. A human being can not go lower than to accuse the victims of genocide, of that very same crime. You have gone as low as possible.

'Me as a german, who is fully aware of what was done in the name of the country I was borne in, and who condemns the unspeakable crime committed by Germany, also have the right to try and show other nationalities whos governments did similar things that there is a way out of this dilema, and that is deal with it in an open way. Face your past, and learn something from it. That is all I am trying to say. I am not in any way against Serbia or Serbians, I just want to help them to find peace with themselves and their neighbors,..'

Oh really? I have not seen you criticize Croats, albanians, or Bosnian muslims once on here, and they are guilty of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and war crimes (Operation Storm, Medak Pocket, Bratunac, 2004 pogrom....), this is fact. People like you, who are basicaly anti-Serb hate mongers, I refuse to take seriously. You have no facts to back up your accusations of 'genocide'. You simply spread NATO lies and propoganda, and when someone like me spread the truth, you get offended. Too bad, the truth hurts Willi. I'm not going to stop spreading the truth, so deal with it.
Cheers!!

(Ivan, 11 January 2012 15:30)

There are several mass graves containing K-Albanian bodies including women and children, the latest one found in Rudnica with 250 bodies in it. Many other massacres are well documented including Suva Reka Pizza shop massacre, Izsbica massacre, Meja massacre, Vučitrn massacre etc. Many war criminals were "convicted" by Serbia itself.

Not that you care anyway, but at least have some integrity and honor not to lie so bluntly.

“Because of the errors and crimes in which were our countrymen were among the actors, our country has for years been the pillar of shame and has had to struggle for the legitimization of its national interests,” Tadić pointed out.

As of today, I worry about the fate of Tadic, since he is publicly admitting that Serbs were the main actors that committed crimes.

(Willi Pfaff, 11 January 2012 11:18)

You’re comparing Serbs with the Germans, a people who caused the death of 50 million and SYSTEMATICALLY exterminated “subhumans” such as Jews, Slavs, Roma and other” racially impure”.
The Germans killed all undesirables, men, women, children, young and old – ALL . They even had death camps to speed up the process and left no one alive, now that is GENOCIDE mate.
In Kosovo NATO killed more Albanians dropping bombs everywhere and then blaming Milosevic for those deaths. NATO did’nt give a s… about the population as they were dying for the greater good.
These westerns who believe everything the media tell them and they think they are experts. Why don’t we see your media playing over and over Donald Rumsfeld on TV every night where his is shaking hands with Saddam Hussein and giving him chemicals to kill the Kurds?????
Wake up and stop posting nonsense.

This is funny. Seems that our albanians brothers in Kosova have fought more for the serbian rights that for their own, according to this "solution" presented here by Tadic. If the Tadic condtions was ever to be accepted, this will mean that albanians rights in Kosovo will be seriuosly endangered. Because the serbs there together with Serbia would have much more control of Kosovo than albanians themselves. So this is another attempt by serbian authorities to undermine and destroy Kosovo indipendence and statehood. Serbian main goal as always, is to DESTROY Kosovo statehood, and not to find a solution that satisfies both albanians and serbs. So to put it simply ,Serbia is still living in the past. The tactics adopted by the serbs even today are the same as they used to be at the begining of the Yugoslav wars, like: blocking roads, dehumanizing the adversary, presenting him to the local serbs as a monster who is ready to come and eat them up, in order to instill fear and make them much more obedient to Belgarde authority. This happened in Croatia, where the croats were presented as ustashis that wanted to kill all serbs living inside Crotia. So under this false propoganda serbs started to raise barricades and arm themselves. And the only solutions for them to feel secure was : to be indipendent. Returning to Kosovo don't you find some similarities?? They have raised barricades, and want people to think, that all albanins are monsters that want to kill them. Even when Thaci sent his police to take two checkpoints in the north, it was presented to the serbian opinion, as Thaci intent was to take over the "NORTH" and make ethnic cleansing of all the serbs there. This is what Dacic said and was threatening "WAR". Even today a lot of people think that accepting Pishtina's institutions would mean, that albanians will come over there and expell them and run their lives too. This is RIDICULOUS.. Serbia should grou up, make peace first with herslef than with her neighbours.

cheers..

You can not find a solution when your country have commited genocide and know you acting like nothing has happend.

This means , you are recognizing the UDI.
Good job Mr . Tadic , i knew the time will come one day !

Nikolle, albanians in the valley don't have to fear geting killed when leaving their home.

"Tadić: Solution for Kosovo lies in international arena"

And domestically to your own citizens since the 90's.

Willi,

Telling people to come to terms with the past is one thing. *How* people come to terms with the past is another story. You're upset because a group of Serbs either deny or downplay Srebrenica, or even justify it as a form of self-defence from another group. Croats do the same thing with Operation Storm - a recognized crime against humanity that the Croatian state still regards as a moment of national liberation and in which the previous government went almost as far as glorifying. Where's your condemnation there? Albanians continue to deny or downplay ethnic attacks on Serbs in Kosovo both before and after 1999, or justify attacks as some sort of revenge against past aggression. Crimes against ordinary Serbs continue to go unsolved. Where's your condemnation there? In all these cases, we have one group of people interpreting a crime through the lens of self-victimhood which is perpetuated through some form of state-sponsored memory. If you're going to lay blame on one group for failing to come to terms with its past, you're going to have to blame all of them because one group's perpetuation of an ethnocentric memory fuels justification for everyone else's.

As far as your desire to single out Serbs, I'm not sure about the company you keep or the Serbs you communicate with. If it's primarily on internet sites like this, you're wasting your time with nationalists. As for me who has spent a lot of time in Serbia and has dozens of Serbian friends, I can assure you that "coming to terms with the past" is more active there than in Croatia, Bosnia, or Kosovo, where self-victimization is still a politically active discourse and Serbs serve as useful scapegoats to blame whenever problems arise. Whether or not Tadic's words here are true, it's a testament to Serbia wanting a practical solution to Kosovo unlike maximalist demands that continue to come from elsewhere.

So what are your suggestions for "coming to terms with the past"? How would you introduce steps for a society to realize this? Wagging the finger and chastising will not work. Singling out only one problem and believing it's the endemic chimaera is little more than you being angry at something you have no idea of solving. If you have some suggestions, I'm sure more than a few of us would be interested in reading about it.

How things are going in Serbia very soon Tadic will say the same about Sandzak, Presheva Valley, Vojvodina, etc.

Nikolle,

Kosovo is a part of Serbia.

Just because you think you are independent does not make it reality.

Serbs would get special rights because we are being intimidated, murdered and antagonised, not to mention vandalism of our monasteries & houses.

Do you think Kosovo is a peaceful place right now and Serbs are safe?

Albanians are safe in Kosovo because they make up over 90% of the population. Serbs are NOT safe and therefore need to be given protection and special rights.

Noone said the Albanians will not be given rights, but they don't need the same special rights the Serbs need because they are not living in fear of attacks like we are.

If you want to go & talk about the past and start saying how horrible Serbs are etc then fine, but have you forgotten what the KLA stands for?? What about the Vetevendosje??

Stop being ridiculous and saying "no special rights"... until you learn to examine & analyse the status quo I don't expect you to be rational in your postings.

As for Lenard, you have so much hatred in your blood that I don't believe there is a hope for your rehabilitation.

No country nor their people in the Kosovo conflict were innocent. Crimes were & still are being committed on both sides.

trizoo

You really are talking our of your...Serbs are not murdered daily, nor are they harassed. They have gone into some sort of self imposed exclusion. The Arthisari plan grants Serbs far more rights than Albanians have EVER enjoyed in Kosovo or Serbia. What Serbs of Kosovo want is for Belgrade to make the rules. Well forget it, that day is as lost as India is lost to Britain. How do you give someone 'special' rights? What does that even mean? The right to speak Serbian? Ditto, they have that. The right to observer Christmas? Ditto, they have that. The Kosovat government can't guarantee that individual members of the public won't commit crimes, neither can the Serbian officials promise that to the Prehsva Albanians, all they can do, is when crimes are committed, its perpetraitors brought to justice. That's it. What spexcial rights do they want? Gov. subsidies? Believe it or not, they enjoy that too (much to my chagrin). They are given equal rights, nothing more, nothing less. I repeat, if its speacial rights they want, give the Albanians the rights to be educated in their ethinc tounge, *a right enjoyed by the Serbs in Kosovo(

When were albanians murdered daily? What the hell are you talking about? What genocide? There have been several forensic officials, in particular from Norway that have already said that the mass graves in Kosovo were staged. That did not ever even happen. Did alot of kla fighters die? You bet they did. But there were no "mass graves" found. Genocide is the best propaganda tool available, thats why people like WILLI PFAFF, and NIKOLLE use thoser word and talk about thinkgs like that. Thats what their bosses at their respective propaganda agencies like to see. There are many agents of that nature on this website, i think we all should be aware of this. Im not joking either this is a definite fact. watch out for others MIRI, KOSO, and several others. if you dont think so think about this, why are they on a belgrade based website constantly? If they are so die hard albanian, dont you think they would read a pristina based website? Wouldnt they want to hear about what their people aare doing?

Sounds alot like a renamed Ahtisaari Plan to me. Its beginning to look a lot like Christmas every where I go.

Willi Pfaff,

Tell me than if Serbia in the 90's acted like Germany of WWII, why then is Serbia being asked to give 15% of it's territory and Germany didn't lose a square inch?

It looks like another regular day at B92 with fraudulous voting, Albanians and their followers dumping their rants en masse, and a few brave Serbs who have not abandoned B92 yet trying to spread some common sense against a tsunami of ignorance and hate. My best bet: 100 poor comments in the next two hours.

Mike,

Thanks for your open and honest comments to what I said here today, and you obviously also read some of my previous comments. I condemn nationalism, close mindlessness, fascism, and bigotry in any society, no matter where it is found. I am very well aware of acts against humanity in all the Balkan countries, before and after the wars which took place during the 90’s. An act of violence can’t be justified with an counter act violence, I completely agree with you on that. I personally have never been to Serbia, but know the rest of the Balkan countries pretty well, and also read quite a bit about the history and the more current political and social developments. What Serbians should realize is that they were the aggressors in these wars, and are responsible for what happened during that time, just like Germany is and was responsible for WWII with all it’s pain, suffering and the mass murder which took place back than. Srebrenica simply was the biggest mass slaughter in the European history since WWII, and the BBC documentary, which I assume you have seen as well, shows it all. It shows Karadzic and Mladic talking openly about getting rid of all the Moslems, it shows how people were put on trucks and being taken to the killing fields, and it shows the mass graves, and than there are still so many people denying it ever happened. I trust you when you say, that there is a growing awareness in the Serbian society of their recent history, but it most certainly is not shown very strongly on web sites like this one. It also isn’t reflected in the countries politics, and when the Serbian interior minister talks about war, well another war over Kosovo, my alarm bells start ringing. They also start ringing when I hear Tadic making comments like he did in Kosovo a few days ago, (well, he does it all the time) or see how the 20th anniversary of the Rupublic of Srpska is celebrated with not a word about what happened in the war.
As to your question about coming to terms with your own countries past I can only first repeat what I have been saying here all along. Reflect on it in an open way, leave nationalism out of it, learn to say, yes, my country did something wrong, was involved in acts against humanity, and I do not ever want this to happen again. Kids in school have to learn this, and I think the German approach could be a way on how to do it in Serbia as well. It is also necessary to stop lying to the Serbian people and make them aware of the fact that Kosovo will never be part of Serbia again, and stop this nonsense about Kosovo being the cradle of Serbian society. A few monasteries build in the Middle Ages don’t make it the cradle of the Serbian society. Instead the Belgrade politicians should promote exchange programs between schools in Kosovo and Serbia, so the kids learn to respect each other and start building a common future side by side in hopefully free European context. Start programs which bring the people closer together again, make them understand each others pains which were inflicted by the other side, and start a common healing process. This is just in short what I would like to say to you Mike, and I still left out a lot. But a beginning needs to be made, and that requires reflection on all sides.

That is how Germany approached their past, and it made it a better country, where anything like what they did in the past can never happen again.
(Willi Pfaff, 11 January 2012 11:18)

So Germany should never again try to design Balkan map, since Germany's ability to do it proved to be very low.

You're upset because a group of Serbs either deny or downplay Srebrenica, or even justify it as a form of self-defence from another group. Croats do the same thing with Operation Storm - a recognized crime against humanity that the Croatian state still regards as a moment of national liberation and in which the previous government went almost as far as glorifying. (Mike, 11 January 2012 19:06) Their go the Serbs on their tirades comparing Croatian Liberation Operation Storm of its own internationally recognized territory. From duped minority Serb of Croatia by Grater Belgrade Serbia criminal war pogroms. Croatians unarmed civilians that were summarily executed in the thousands and two thousand still missing to this day many kidnapped to Serbia never returned from their. Murdered ethnic cleansed in 30% of Croatian brutally war criminally occupied territory of Croatia. With 99% Croatians and many other peoples nationalities even Serbs who didn't prescribe to Grater Serbia evil pogroms were targeted by criminal Serbs and their leadership read it for your self http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vukovar . What the Serbs did criminally and supported is truly pathetic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rzQq846Yn8&feature=related yes we protected our beautiful Croatia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hCazYqft-Y&NR=1 our homes and family that God gave us from wicked vile evil. Then we went in to Bosnia to Stop the genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mistral at the invitation of Bosnia government and majority of it peoples. To stop the murderous genocide ethnic cleansing to make imperfect peace to say the least. We didn't carve out territory in Bosnia like the Serbs murderously did and claim it.

NIKOLLE, a forensic analyst says the mass graves are staged, ill take her word for it. These things never happened NEVER! But since the k. albanians have been trying for decades to seceed and become albania, they needed to stage eevnts like mass graves in order to assure international support for their "independence". The americans taught them how to do this, they know exactly how to paint the picture they want in the media. I do find it funny that you had no comments on you working for a propaganda agencie, already the second time i accused you and you totally ignore it. They must not want you addressing that over there at ruder finn. Either way you are a big time extremist and your comments, now that i know for sure you are being paid to say the thing you do, are irrelavent. alabanians live in Serbia, dont contribute a damn thing, and then want to steal the land they are living on. SOunds really classy doesnt it. Oh and please dont rebuttle about how serbs committed genocide blah blah blah blah, cause if that was ture, BELIEVE ME BBC would have it all over the news. THERE ARE 0 albanian MASS GRAVES

Ivan

Explain to me why there were bodies of dead Albanians found INSIDE Serbia proper. Go ahead. It is becasue of attitudes like yours that we want nothing to do with Serbia, they actually have the nerve to accuse people of faking deaths, griviences and sufferings. I'm glad that the bloody hand of Serbia is off from Kosovo for good., Yeah, Albanian sufferings were staged, Serb ones on the other hand are genuine
(Nikolle, 11 January 2012 16:09)

Hi Nikolle,

Passionate albanian muslim lover you happen to be! Ok so you and all your Albanian followers answer me this..

The medicus case, kidnapping innocent civilians and organ trafficing from 1998-2008..maybe happening as we speak/write..????????.dont say no evidence...u sound ignorant and stupid

Because of "attitudes like yours"...what, r u high?..Your albanian people kept coming (truck loads and much more) into Kosovo,Yugo. ever since Tito came to power in 1945. Serbian people alowed you to freely come and multiply...u Albos had it all...all special rights...so much rights that you became majority and then decided to steal kosovo from the serbs, with the help of Germans/Nato...Ofcourse...

I will not even speak of horrific crimes committed by the SS Albanian Nazis during WW2....100's of thousands of innocent Jews, Roma and Serbs murdered, slaughtred under Albanian Nazi knifes....

500 years of torture, rape, mutrder of serbs under Turkish muslim control...

And you speak of some suffering and lack of rights of Presevo Albanian community....your arguments, just like German,Will P. r weak...both of you belong to fachist nations that continue to devalue serbian suffering....your nations committed more murder than all the other nations world wide together, for as long as mankind has existed....

And nikolle, know this...Serbian hand will never ever leave Kosovo...You maybe won this battle right now, but the war is just starting...Serbs dont trust EU, NATO and EU r sinking slowly but surly, Russia,China (serbian friends)lending money to USA....hahaha, its a known fact.....and Nikolle...u talk too much

Timber Wolf

MIKEC well said, couldnt have said it better.

Willi,

I appreciate your response and I'm glad to see that despite a number of positions you have that I disagree with, there is more common ground we share. First of all, there is still a considerable degree of close minded nationalism and bigotry in the Balkans, as in any society, as you say. Increasingly, it is shown on Internet sites like this, of which I used to participate a lot more in but grew tired of the repetitive insults and self-righteous grandstanding far too many posters were making (many of whom live in Western Europe and North America where distance in both time and geography from the region has filtered opinions).

Secondly, I appreciate your response in articulating how "coming to terms with the past" can be implemented but in regards to the German model, as I'm sure you know, it wasn't immediately undertaken. In fact, if memory serves me, "coming to terms with the past" in Germany only started around the late 1960s. Before that, there was a concerted effort by the Bonn government to disassociate with National Socialism by pointing to the Nuremburg Trials and washing their hands of the matter, similar to how Belgrade has looked at the ICTY. A number of Nazi officials remained untried, and more than a few continued work in government. – something that was incredibly embarrassing once word got out. For the rest of society, the past was basically buried in an “out of sight out of mind” approach as Germans wanted to get on with their lives. Now the same patterns can be seen in the former Yugoslavia to an extent as each society knows clearly what was committed in their name. Some, as I said, openly glorify it. Others deny it. Others find excuses for it. And you can find lots of that here. Many just want to forget because, well, that's reality. Does that solve the problem? No. But does it implicate an entire society for failing to atone for the past? It should not because just as we can't blame all Germans for the Holocaust, so too can't we blame all Serbs for Srebrenica, or Croats for Operation Storm, or Albanians for being part of UCK. If anyone is ever expecting Serbs, Croats, Albanians, or anyone to one day wake up, realize their guilt and beat their chests begging for forgiveness, they’re in for a long wait because the vast majority of these people just don’t think about it in the same way Americans don’t think about slavery, or Jim Crow laws, or electing George W. Bush to a second term in office. In my opinion, a better way at "coming to terms with the past" involves three critical steps:

a) The past needs to be de-toxified; in that emotions, which can clearly define memory, need to be limited to direct perpetrators and not an entire group. To continue to ascribe collective guilt never brings any society around. There’s more to Germany than the Third Reich, just as there’s far more to Serbia than Milosevic, or Croatia to Tudjman.

b) The past needs to be objectified. Multiple sides committed multiple crimes against humanity in YU in the 1990s, yet multiple sides were victims of those crimes. If, as you rightly say you are "very well aware of acts against humanity in all the Balkan countries, before and after the wars which took place during the 90’s", it is in fact a recognition of a civil war and blame cannot be put on one group alone. To do so automatically jeopardizes reconciliation in that it minimizes the victims on one side and ignores the crimes committed by the other. There are indeed atrocities committed by Serbs in the name of Serbia, and there are also atrocities committed against Serbs not because of what they did, but because they’re Serbs. You can insert any other national group into that same sentence.

c) Reconciliation must be systemic and mutual. Too often have I seen "monuments" in Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia appear to be more interested in politicizing their own dead and demonizing an "other" than commemorating the general act of violence. While no side goes so far as to glorify their own war criminals (HDZ as the recent exclusion but that was more for political points by a dying party), I really don't think there is any sort of understanding that all sides suffered during the 1990s; rather one side's commemoration of loss is commemorated as an act of self-defense, and these narratives are reinforced over the years through insular historical memories. Serbian school textbooks barely mention Srebrenica just as Croatian textbooks go into vivid detail about Vukovar, but fail to mention the expulsion of Serbs in Storm. This itself is a fascinating (if depressing) study on reconciliation.

As for your opinions on Kosovo, I would caution against some of your interpretations of Tadic, Dacic et al. To be honest, I don't listen to any statements from Belgrade or Pristina officials anymore as much of what they say is irrelevant and for internal consumption. Thaci can posture all he wants, but he knows the K-Serbs will never be under his control. Likewise, Belgrade can say whatever it wants about Kosovo being a part of its territory, but when was the last time Belgrade had any political weight in areas outside the Serb enclaves (which even there appears to be losing influence). Tadic’s statements were of no surprise but I fail in seeing how that was political or offensive. Moreover, I fail to see how that could be interpreted as destabilizing to Albanian spheres of influence in Kosovo of which Belgrade has all but ceased trying to regain control.

I would also caution you against being that dismissive about Kosovo as part of Serbian identity. Yes, aside from a few key monasteries there's little there today. But it is part of that identity and to simply say "get over it" never works. I've been to Kosovo have seen the active Serb communities in Mitrovica and Gracanica, both of which operate outside Pristina’s jurisdiction and still look to Belgrade for legitimacy. I do feel that Kosovo has indeed distracted Serbia from more pressing issues like the economy, employment, and corruption (three things all my friends in Belgrade will tell you are far more important than what happens in Kosovo), but unfortunately the Kosovo issue has remained an open issue due to irresponsible policies by Washington and others that simply felt Belgrade would just have to "deal with it". Nearly four years into its so-called independence and the stalemate remains. Belgrade has been incredibly flexible over what basically amounts to an illegitimate recognition of self-proclaimed sovereignty outside formal international arbitration and deliberation, so for all that Belgrade lost and for all that Serb grievances have been ignored, I think Tadic deserves a break for continuing to support what glaciers of Serbian authority remain in Kosovo.

In any event, you've raised a number of issues that can certainly serve as starting points of reconciliation in the region. Like I said, I agree that nationalism and close mindedness has stymied progress on all sides, but the best way of defusing these problems across the board and once and for all, is collective engagement and mutual reconciliation.

Apologies for the long post, but you were nice enough to take the time to reply to me, I felt you deserved no less.

One more thing I would say is definitely go to Serbia. I've been there numerous times and have loved every moment of it. Belgrade and Novi Sad are amazing cities, the people are incredibly friendly and helpful (even when they know I'm an American), and I've made some incredibly good friends there who are eager to show you as much of their country outside the CNN-lens as possible. You can't judge a place if you haven't been there and only going to other places in the Balkans while just reading about Serbia gives you an incredibly lopsided view. I guarantee you that you'll have a wonderful time. Everyone who's been there loves it!

Cheers,

The Kosovo issue was brought to a vote in the United Nations and then you capitulated!!

Lenard is that from the Franjo Tudjman history book?
You need professional help really. Above all you need to make up your mind whether you are Bosnian or Croatian and once you have made up your mind, you need to face the fact that Croatia tried to annex parts of Bosnia to Croatia

'We didn't carve out territory in Bosnia like the Serbs murderously did and claim it.'

Yes, thats exactly what you did. There is a name for all that all historians and observers know - Herceg Bosna. Domestic and international groups recorded the illegal stationing of Croatian troops within Bosnian territory and the war crimes Croats committed against Bosnian Muslums.

In fact Bosnia could quite easily seek reperations against Croatia, oh how that would confuse you, whose side would you be on? How convinient for you to blame everything of the Serbs so you can avoid difficult issues...

It looks like another regular day at B92 with fraudulous voting, Albanians and their followers dumping their rants en masse, and a few brave Serbs who have not abandoned B92 yet trying to spread some common sense against a tsunami of ignorance and hate. My best bet: 100 poor comments in the next two hours.
(Milan, 11 January 2012 16:28)
========================

Milan, it is getting increasingly difficult to come to this site and be confronted by so many Albanian hateful and obviously untrue statements which B92 allows through.
People like Roberto and ICJ are obviously here only to irritate but their comments are constantly posted.
Many others are just annoying because they keep going on and on and on about the same old how Kosovo is independent because Yugoslavia broke up and Serbia did not succeed it.
B92 has become Albanian playground. You could not say anything of the sort about any Albanian site so Serbs are constantly subjected to this frustration without an alternative.
It's really very sad.

well, SJ, try to rember that the genoside conducted in the name of Serbia all over the balcans was the first time that anything like that happened in Europe since WWII. Screbrinca, and a lot more is comaparable to what the Germans did in WWII, even to point how they tried to depose of the people they killed. Rember what happened at the Trepco mines. I don't want to blame all the serbian people, because they follwed the some madman, just like the Germans did, and I do not want to put it on the same level as what the Germans did either, because that certainly was a lot worse, but it still is comparable. That is what the serbian public should start realizing, and it would help them to go on living in peace with itself and its neighbors.
(Willi Pfaff, 11 January 2012 13:08)


Unfortunately some eager B92 editor removed my original comment on Srebrenica. I stated that “Srebrenica is a MYTH”. As genocide means wiping out all then why did Mladic release old men, women and children?????? The Germans gave the true definition to genocide as they killed men, women and children regardless of age. So please stop paraphrasing the term your media is happy to peddle.

The memorial in Potocari have supposedly names of all killed at Srebrenica, but what is not told is that some of those on that monument are still alive today; others have names of those killed in offensives around Tusla and Sarajevo.

On the Trepco mines “…. after the war UN forensic experts went in and recovered and identified a little over 2,000 bodies (including Serbs)”. It was a fraud!!!!!

Yes there were crimes committed by Serbs but genocide is a tad too rich for any thinking person.

The problem with people like you is you believe everything they tell you on TV. Think about it; if I started a media campaign that said over and over again that Willi Pfaff is stupid would you believe it after a couple of years? Joseph Goebbels said that if you yell out a lie long enough and loud enough it becomes the truth regardless of the facts.

You have never been to these places but all of a sudden you have come out as an expert and all based on information being fed from western media sources.

I see no reply on my statement “Why don’t we see your media playing over and over Donald Rumsfeld on TV every night where his is shaking hands with Saddam Hussein and giving him chemicals to kill the Kurds?????”


He said Serbs have to face up to their crimes and admit them. Many on this forum deny Srebrencia ever happened. Many deny that the Albanians of Kosovo were expelled at gun point in their hundreds of thousands. Many flat out reject that the Banja Luka republic was engaged in systematic ethnic cleansing of its Croat inhabitants. These are all well documented cases of crimes committed by Serbs in the name of Serbia (for many here Mladic is a hero still). Its true, sorry
(Jonathan, 11 January 2012 12:47)

Wow the Serbs expelled the Croats. Is that it? Is that all you can say on the subject? What about the Croats expelling the Serbs??? Hmm?? Oh no that never happened it’s only the evil Serbs.

My favourite media story was the emaciated “prisoner” behind barbed wires and the western media feeding frenzy about concentration camps. It turned out that this guy was only waiting for transport to a Red Cross camp as a displaced person. Even the western TV presenter went to great pains to try and correct the story but to no avail – she was there and saw it all.

Yes some Albanians were expelled, but you are aware that there were 1.9 million of them in Kosovo and the vast majority were not touched? But maybe not as TV did not tell you that one. Then the pictures of Albanians walking on railways lines – of course carefully choreographed to bring up images of Auschwitz.

I’m not here to paint a saintly picture about the Serbs as some crimes were committed but what has been laid at our doorstep are outright lies.

Take a deep breath and get away from you TV. The west murdered 150 000 Iraqis during the last war and not a peep from people like you, so go and tell someone who cares about your ideas.

As far as Maldic is concerned he is a hero to me.

B92 has become Albanian playground. You could not say anything of the sort about any Albanian site so Serbs are constantly subjected to this frustration without an alternative.
It's really very sad.
(Peggy, 12 January 2012 10:06)

If Kosovo was Serbia, K-Albanians were Serbian citizens. You being against them posting their comments here, proves only your twisted mindset.

And now try to solve the "eternal question" here: If the K-Albanians are (according to you and others) Serbian citizens, why would you be against comments posted by your fellow Serbian citizens?

sj

That without a doubt is the biggest pile of garbage I have EVER read. What are you going to tell me next, WW2 was acted in Berlin studios? I whole heartedly stand by what I said, Serbs deny the evils that were done in their name. This is done as a defense mechanism or because of shame. It is a basic Freudian trick, do not accept reality and believe a lie. Frankly it scares me that a nation should wallow so deep in lies over something that could quite clearly help the advancement of its mental make up. Denials of the massacres of Srebrenica, Kosovo, Banja Luka are the same as denying Nazis were war criminals. Germans, however gruesome and horrid their past is, accept it and fight, time for Serbs to do the same. p.s. that Mladic should be a hero to you is disgusting

Yes some Albanians were expelled, but you are aware that there were 1.9 million of them in Kosovo and the vast majority were not touched?
As far as Maldic is concerned he is a hero to me.
(sj, 11 January 2012 23:27)
Some Albanians!!! You are right no Albanian arrive in Malaysia when you live. So no Albanian was expelled.
I didn’t read carefully your post, didn’t you mention that Albanian go way afraid from NATO bombardment?
SJ, if this fantastic scenarios that you tell us was not the opinion of a lot of Serbs, I’d had a lot of fun with your posts, but seeing that are a lot of Serbs with this theories for me is a drama first for Serbia itself than for entire Balkan. I have a non realistic hope that you write this BS with different nicknames.

Sadly B92 has decided not to publish my comment that was addressed to you and Canadian Serb. I will say this though, your own government (that is the Serb gov.) announced the uncovering of mass graves containing Albanianj bodies inside Serbia proper. If you believe that the people you cote for lied to you, then do not vote in the upcoming elections. Your way of dealing with the crimes committed in your peoples name is to deny them, good luck with that. I will repeat however, I want nothing to do with a nation that point blank refuses to acknowledge the despicable acts committed in its name and its because of that that you will NEVER EVER control Kosovo again


First of all, they were very adimat in saying that there were no mass graves. So you making up that they did means nothing. What about atrocities committed by albanians? Why arent any of your generals in the hague? Seems we have owned up to all of our crimes, but albanians play some innocent victim. YOU ARE A PART OF THE LARGEST DRUG DEALING SOCIETY IN THE WORLD WHERE DO YOU GET OFF TALKING ABOUT MORALS. AND BY THE WAY KOSOVO IS STILL SERBIA!

bganon many Croatians apposed Herceg Bosna formation in parliament and on the street. Susak the Croatian defence minister trouble maker from Herzegovina pushed for it extreme elements and his small far rite clique. In the end they lost most of their support of the people and their nonsense evil plans fell threw. Bosnia has a good case they should take it to court definitely I have no problem with it most Croatians regret what happened. bganon you are just trying to score some cheep points with the majority far rite Serbs that don't like your middle thinking. They deny excuse worst war crimes and the massive Serb complicity of well over 90% of the horrendous crimes committed by Serbs and indicted. Also of Serbia's criminal war planing Grater Serbia territorial ambitions execution that rears its ugly head to often in the region. Only now it knows it will get its stuffing kicked if it tries those evil programs again. Today's Serbia more of the same also its "leadership" with a lot of under the radar subterfuge and stealing never wants to live up to its good potential thinks crimes will pay. Like God says what you sow that is what you will reap.

"Tadić: Solution for Kosovo in international arena"

He forgot Serbia was TKO'd in that "arena" back in 1999!

Willi Pfaff,

In addition to my earlier post, when Israel went into action against Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006, the EU was its strongest critic.

The then Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, in a rage stated:

“where do they get the right to lecture Israel, he demanded recalling NATO airstrikes in Kosovo”?

European countries killed 10,000 civilians, he charged,” and none of these countries had been the target of missiles”.

Naturally they blamed all of those deaths on poor old Slobo Milosevic.

It’s during times like that when little trade secrets are let loose much like Putin recently stating that it was the US forces that killed Gaddafi not the insurgents. The US was not happy about this piece of information being given to the world.

"What Serbians should realize is that they were the aggressors in these wars, and are responsible for what happened during that time, just like Germany is and was responsible for WWII with all it’s pain"
(Willi Pfaff)


Why were they the aggressors? Germany was clear aggressor, it attacked lands for which it had ABSOLUTELY NO legitimate claims, while it was much more complicated with Serbia.

And about Germany's will to do with the past - sorry, but repentance coming from losers isn't worth much.

No, Mr Tadic, the Serbs have been oppressed for far too long, yet again! The solution is FREEDOM! And, Mr Tadic you are an obstacle. It is time to get out of way and let the real Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija to do "negotiations".

LENARD, first off learn to speak. Second you are completely distorting and mis representing everything you say. Nothing truthful ever comes out of you. Your political analysis is ridiculous. Time and time again you talk about Serb atrocities that have already been proven false. There are no mass graves, there was no genocide and there was no ethnic cleansing. Albanians left Kosovo under the instruction of nato. This is a good way to avoid casualties for albanians and at the same time allows nato to say the Serbs are ethnic cleansing Kosovo. The truth cannot be stopped and the lies are running out for Thaci and his regime. Soon the other 35% of the world that doesnt know whats going on in south Kosovo(drug trafficking, Organ harvesting, and human trafficking). You have a lot of nerve talking about the brutality of serbs and owning up to the past AFTER ALL ALBANIA WAS AN AXIS POWER IN WW2! When they slaughtered all christians in the area, wheres the owning up to that?

Lenard sometimes you behave as if you have a split personality. One time saying 'We didn't carve out territory in Bosnia like the Serbs murderously did and claim it.' and the next time admitting that Croatia did this - although you try to get out of it by saying the Croatian people didn't support it. Well, if they didn't support it, they had the chance to vote for other parties and policies didn't they?

I don't remember seeing mass protests in Zagreb against annexing Bosnia to Croatia. On the contrary instead Tudjman and Milosevic were happy to meet and divide Bosnia. Strangely enough though I do remember small protests in Belgrade against Bosnian Serb policy. I do remember Milosevic calling the bombing of Sarajevo cowardly. I do remember Milosevic cutting links with Bosnian Serb leaders and imposing some sanctions. Of course part of this was just politiking and / or to prove to internationals that Belgrade and Pale policy were different. But despite that I don't remember Zagreb condeming elements of Herceg Bosna and the Boban regime in Bosnia (until later when Boban became a liability).

You want to continue to play the war crimes record? For how long - 20 years, 50 years, 1000 years? Good luck with that. I've made my position clear on this issue and I'm not going to become obsessed with one issue.

Yes, as you sow, so shall you reap. You keep sowing nationalism and bitterness and you shall reap misery and unhappiness. I will keep sowing reconciliation and moderation and I hope we will all reap a better future.

Ivan

Sadly B92 has decided not to publish my comment that was addressed to you and Canadian Serb. I will say this though, your own government (that is the Serb gov.) announced the uncovering of mass graves containing Albanianj bodies inside Serbia proper. If you believe that the people you cote for lied to you, then do not vote in the upcoming elections. Your way of dealing with the crimes committed in your peoples name is to deny them, good luck with that. I will repeat however, I want nothing to do with a nation that point blank refuses to acknowledge the despicable acts committed in its name and its because of that that you will NEVER EVER control Kosovo again

Mike,
"Belgrade has been incredibly flexible over what basically amounts to an illegitimate recognition of self-proclaimed sovereignty outside formal international arbitration and deliberation"

Mike, did you miss all that went on at the ICJ?
About coming to terms with the past, since you say that you have mostly been to Serbia and mostly have Serbian friends, don't you think your comparisons are void? You are comparing people you have met and know very well (Serbs) with people you don't know very well (Croats, Albanians, Bosniaks). How do you think that type of comparison can be convincing? Aren't you assuming things? Also, do you think coming to terms with the past is more visible in those countries that have a lot of past to come to terms with? I mean, a large percentage of the Hague indictees is ex Serbian government officials, wouldn't you say Serbian society has a lot more past to come to terms with than the other neighboring societies? And that entails that more is expected of Serbia in this regard than its neighbors.

Nikolle,

Please do some research (honestly) about murders of Serbians in Kosovo since 1999. Please tell me that they are not bashings, assaults and murders in Kosovo of Serbians because of their ethnicity.

How can you say we have the 'right' to speak Serbian in Kosovo? Of course we do, it is our home for longer than Albanians.

How many mosques have been destructed in Kosovo since 1999??? Then answer me how many orthodox churches have been destructed since 1999???

Perhaps you might conclude on which side is intimidating the other?

How many Albanian houses have been broken into and robbed in recent times? Then answer me how many Serbian houses in Kosovo have been broken into and robbed??

Just a simple google search... I'm sure you can spread the references among various sources thus enabling you to stop calling it all PROPAGANDA.

You are closed minded and ignorant and therefore the majority of people who read your posts will switch off after the first few 'hate' sentences.

If you take a step back and put yourself in the shoes of the other side (for once) rationally then you might teach yourself some things.

PS: Presevo & Sandak are not going anywhere and the ethnic Albanians who live there can just keep kicking up a fuss & protesting as much as they want but the best option is to move back to Albania. You emigrated to our land and not vice-versa.

Most places where Albanians emigrate they urge more rights etc.

Serbs are urging more rights in their own country of Kosovo.

There is a big difference.

And now try to solve the "eternal question" here: If the K-Albanians are (according to you and others) Serbian citizens, why would you be against comments posted by your fellow Serbian citizens?
(the egg or the hen?, 12 January 2012 11:24)
=============================
We definitely see k Albanians as citizens of Serbia but the ones posting here do not see themselves as that and I would imagine live outside Kosovo. You see yourselves as Albanians so don't get upset if I don't see you as Serbian citizens.

You think you are so clever with this chicken and the egg thing.

Willi Pfaf - as a German with albanian lovers you are the last person on earth to accuse the Serbs of some 'genocide'. The Serbs are in fact the victims of genocide at the hands of those you support. It seems you like to accuse the victims of genocide of war crimes, this way you hide the truth of what really happened - Operation Storm, and the systematic ethnic cleansing of every Serbian citizen from Kosovo by your albanian friends. Quit spreading your hate propoganda on here, the Trepca mine shaft story was proven to be pure garbage. You should be ashamed.

(Willi Pfaff, 11 January 2012 11:18)

You’re comparing Serbs with the Germans, a people who caused the death of 50 million and SYSTEMATICALLY exterminated “subhumans” such as Jews, Slavs, Roma and other” racially impure”.
The Germans killed all undesirables, men, women, children, young and old – ALL . They even had death camps to speed up the process and left no one alive, now that is GENOCIDE mate.
In Kosovo NATO killed more Albanians dropping bombs everywhere and then blaming Milosevic for those deaths. NATO did’nt give a s… about the population as they were dying for the greater good.
These westerns who believe everything the media tell them and they think they are experts. Why don’t we see your media playing over and over Donald Rumsfeld on TV every night where his is shaking hands with Saddam Hussein and giving him chemicals to kill the Kurds?????
Wake up and stop posting nonsense.

BELGRADE -- Serbian President Boris Tadić says the Kosovo problem needs a creative solution that would satisfy interests of Serbs, Albanians and interests of great powers. Boris the interests of great powers is for the Albanians bend over and you kiss them wear the sun don't shine. You Serbs had your chances and blew them royally murderously genocidaly. Nobody trusts the Serbs anymore it is out of sheer human civility that your neighbours try to get along with Serbs Serbia. Any thing else Serbia and Serbs try will not wash people have learned their lesson so well from Serbia's criminal war pogroms. With Serb inspired and Serbian orchestrated planed by destroying ,murdering ,ethnic cleansing ,raping ,stealing ,coveting etc. Maybe in a 100 years or sooner if the Serbs show genuine repentance and change of character now all your neighbours international community are on guard and rightfully so. By Serbs true actions ,deeds we only now get subterfuge lies thievery and continuation of your past Serb criminal leadership. In to the present Serb leadership well documented definitely not earned your close neighbours trust.

BELGRADE -- Serbian President Boris Tadić says the Kosovo problem needs a creative solution that would satisfy interests of Serbs, Albanians and interests of great powers. Boris the interests of great powers is for the Albanians bend over and you kiss them wear the sun don't shine. You Serbs had your chances and blew them royally murderously genocidaly. Nobody trusts the Serbs anymore it is out of sheer human civility that your neighbours try to get along with Serbs Serbia. Any thing else Serbia and Serbs try will not wash people have learned their lesson so well from Serbia's criminal war pogroms. With Serb inspired and Serbian orchestrated planed by destroying ,murdering ,ethnic cleansing ,raping ,stealing ,coveting etc. Maybe in a 100 years or sooner if the Serbs show genuine repentance and change of character now all your neighbours international community are on guard and rightfully so. By Serbs true actions ,deeds we only now get subterfuge lies thievery and continuation of your past Serb criminal leadership. In to the present Serb leadership well documented definitely not earned your close neighbours trust.
(Lenard, 11 January 2012 10:24)

Ah put a sock in it Lenard will you for God's sake. When it comes to lecturing others about human rights, war crimes, repetence and reconciliation, Croatian nationalists like you are the last people in the world to start pointing the finger. Need I remind everyone about the 'exploits' of the NDH and Operation Storm.

“We need to find allies in this process. This problem has been internationalized and so we need to find a solution in the international field. The Kosovo issue is essentially decided by the great powers, the members of the Security Council, plus Germany,” Tadić told weekly Nedeljnik. '

Is that what Merkel told you to say ? Why Germany? This is sovereign Serbian soil, and we have most of the world on our side. Germany is responsible for unspeakable war crimes on Serbian soil, so they should not even be allowed to have an army, and should definitely not have been allowed back on Serbian soil. To say that Germaany should have a say in what happens in Kosovo is high treason by Tadic and his yellow traitors. This is an internal matter, because Kosovo is Serbia under international law. Tadic's treason gets more desperate day by day. It's like watching a slow train wreck.

When were albanians murdered daily? What the hell are you talking about? What genocide? There have been several forensic officials, in particular from Norway that have already said that the mass graves in Kosovo were staged. That did not ever even happen. Did alot of kla fighters die? You bet they did. But there were no "mass graves" found. Genocide is the best propaganda tool available, thats why people like WILLI PFAFF, and NIKOLLE use thoser word and talk about thinkgs like that. Thats what their bosses at their respective propaganda agencies like to see. There are many agents of that nature on this website, i think we all should be aware of this. Im not joking either this is a definite fact. watch out for others MIRI, KOSO, and several others. if you dont think so think about this, why are they on a belgrade based website constantly? If they are so die hard albanian, dont you think they would read a pristina based website? Wouldnt they want to hear about what their people aare doing?

Nikolle, albanians in the valley don't have to fear geting killed when leaving their home.

Well Dragan, I strongly object to your repeated false accusations on this site that I have an albanien lover. This is pretty low, and to come up with false crap like that speaks for itself. How low do you want to go, and it disqualifies anything u want to say. I at least have the courage to show my real name here, and you hide behind some probabbly false name. and I strongly object to this kind of journalistic behaviour. Me as a german, who is fully aware of what was done in the name of the country I was borne in, and who condemns the unspeakable crime committed by Germany, also have the right to try and show other nationalities whos governments did similar things that there is a way out of this dilema, and that is deal with it in an open way. Face your past, and learn something from it. That is all I am trying to say. I am not in any way against Serbia or Serbians, I just want to help them to find peace with themselves and their neighbors, and comments like yours Dragan show that some people still have to learn a lot.

Special guarantees for Serbs? What for? Should they be given more rights than other people now? They will be given the same legal rights as any other citizen of Kosovo. What kind of special guarantees do they want? Do the Albanians in Presheva enjoy special guarantees? Did the Albanians of Kosovo enjoy special rights during the 90's? Special guarantees....deary me

Serbia has to deal with his past. I have tried to tell the Serbians here on this site a few times, that they should try to approach the problems they are facing after the awful and inexcuble Milosovic year in a simlar way to find peace with themselves and with their neighbors. Nothing but a full and open discussion in the serbian society will help. All nationlistic views and fingerpointing won't help. Kids in school have to learn that what happened back than and understand it was wrong and inexcusable. They have to learn about the massacres of Screbriniza, and so many other wrong and horrible things which were conducted in the name of a greater Serbia. That is how Germany approached their past, and it made it a better country, where anything like what they did in the past can never happen again. The same approach can only help Serbia to overcome its past and find find a new and better future.

Willi Pfaff, 11 January 2012 11:18)

You’re comparing Serbs with the Germans, a people who caused the death of 50 million and SYSTEMATICALLY exterminated “subhumans” such as Jews, Slavs, Roma and other” racially impure”.
The Germans killed all undesirables, men, women, children, young and old – ALL . They even had death camps to speed up the process and left no one alive, now that is GENOCIDE mate.
In Kosovo NATO killed more Albanians dropping bombs everywhere and then blaming Milosevic for those deaths. NATO did’nt give a s… about the population as they were dying for the greater good.
These westerns who believe everything the media tell them and they think they are experts. Why don’t we see your media playing over and over Donald Rumsfeld on TV every night where his is shaking hands with Saddam Hussein and giving him chemicals to kill the Kurds?????
Wake up and stop posting nonsense.
(sj, 11 January 2012 12:15)

well, SJ, try to rember that the genoside conducted in the name of Serbia all over the balcans was the first time that anything like that happened in Europe since WWII. Screbrinca, and a lot more is comaparable to what the Germans did in WWII, even to point how they tried to depose of the people they killed. Rember what happened at the Trepco mines. I don't want to blame all the serbian people, because they follwed the some madman, just like the Germans did, and I do not want to put it on the same level as what the Germans did either, because that certainly was a lot worse, but it still is comparable. That is what the serbian public should start realizing, and it would help them to go on living in peace with itself and its neighbors.

Another day, another anti Serbian rant eh Lenard?

Let me make one clear to you. I am a Serbian citizen and I certainly don't repent to the likes of you. Why? Because you, a nationalist, regardless of nationality, are the one that should be repenting to me, because it was you, your mirror image in Serbia, Croatia etc that bears responsiblity for what happened in the first place in the former Jugoslavija.

The majority of oridinary people in the former Jugoslavija were not nationalists and we were driven to war by leaders and the hysterical cheerleaders , nationalist cheerleaders. You are obsessed with Serbs, obsessed with the past, obsessed with the idea of being a victim, obsessed with the idea of villans and angels - exactly the type of thinking that got us into the mess. I, who opposed this thinking all along, believe there is little difference between people, think that we should look to the future and work to the mutual benefit of all the people living in the Balkans. Despite the past, we have a bond, and owe it to our children to move forward and not to encourage hatred and ethnic stereotyping.

As for Tadic's statement, I don't particularly believe it. He is probably just saying all of this to do his usual thing - to try to keep the internationals happy. Of course by doing this not only does he make nobody happy, but worse than that it appears he does not believe in any thing.

“Because of the errors and crimes in which were our countrymen were among the actors, our country has for years been the pillar of shame and has had to struggle for the legitimization of its national interests,” Tadić pointed out.

As of today, I worry about the fate of Tadic, since he is publicly admitting that Serbs were the main actors that committed crimes.

'How low do you want to go, and it disqualifies anything u want to say.'

I am not the one accusing a nation of a fictitious 'genocide'. A human being can not go lower than to accuse the victims of genocide, of that very same crime. You have gone as low as possible.

'Me as a german, who is fully aware of what was done in the name of the country I was borne in, and who condemns the unspeakable crime committed by Germany, also have the right to try and show other nationalities whos governments did similar things that there is a way out of this dilema, and that is deal with it in an open way. Face your past, and learn something from it. That is all I am trying to say. I am not in any way against Serbia or Serbians, I just want to help them to find peace with themselves and their neighbors,..'

Oh really? I have not seen you criticize Croats, albanians, or Bosnian muslims once on here, and they are guilty of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and war crimes (Operation Storm, Medak Pocket, Bratunac, 2004 pogrom....), this is fact. People like you, who are basicaly anti-Serb hate mongers, I refuse to take seriously. You have no facts to back up your accusations of 'genocide'. You simply spread NATO lies and propoganda, and when someone like me spread the truth, you get offended. Too bad, the truth hurts Willi. I'm not going to stop spreading the truth, so deal with it.
Cheers!!

Nikolle,

Kosovo is a part of Serbia.

Just because you think you are independent does not make it reality.

Serbs would get special rights because we are being intimidated, murdered and antagonised, not to mention vandalism of our monasteries & houses.

Do you think Kosovo is a peaceful place right now and Serbs are safe?

Albanians are safe in Kosovo because they make up over 90% of the population. Serbs are NOT safe and therefore need to be given protection and special rights.

Noone said the Albanians will not be given rights, but they don't need the same special rights the Serbs need because they are not living in fear of attacks like we are.

If you want to go & talk about the past and start saying how horrible Serbs are etc then fine, but have you forgotten what the KLA stands for?? What about the Vetevendosje??

Stop being ridiculous and saying "no special rights"... until you learn to examine & analyse the status quo I don't expect you to be rational in your postings.

As for Lenard, you have so much hatred in your blood that I don't believe there is a hope for your rehabilitation.

No country nor their people in the Kosovo conflict were innocent. Crimes were & still are being committed on both sides.

Garbage...even if true...it is immaterial. Wasn't there a recent protest in Presheva valley about granting the use of Albanian languages in schools? Why don't you grant them special rights about that? Wasn't a man sentenced for 10 days in prison for bringing down a Serbian flag on 28 Novemeber? Why don't you give them special rights about that? Special for Serbs? Forget it, equal rights yes, special rights...why?

It looks like another regular day at B92 with fraudulous voting, Albanians and their followers dumping their rants en masse, and a few brave Serbs who have not abandoned B92 yet trying to spread some common sense against a tsunami of ignorance and hate. My best bet: 100 poor comments in the next two hours.

Ivan

Explain to me why there were bodies of dead Albanians found INSIDE Serbia proper. Go ahead. It is becasue of attitudes like yours that we want nothing to do with Serbia, they actually have the nerve to accuse people of faking deaths, griviences and sufferings. I'm glad that the bloody hand of Serbia is off from Kosovo for good., Yeah, Albanian sufferings were staged, Serb ones on the other hand are genuine

Sounds alot like a renamed Ahtisaari Plan to me. Its beginning to look a lot like Christmas every where I go.

How things are going in Serbia very soon Tadic will say the same about Sandzak, Presheva Valley, Vojvodina, etc.

Ivan

Explain to me why there were bodies of dead Albanians found INSIDE Serbia proper. Go ahead. It is becasue of attitudes like yours that we want nothing to do with Serbia, they actually have the nerve to accuse people of faking deaths, griviences and sufferings. I'm glad that the bloody hand of Serbia is off from Kosovo for good., Yeah, Albanian sufferings were staged, Serb ones on the other hand are genuine
(Nikolle, 11 January 2012 16:09)

Hi Nikolle,

Passionate albanian muslim lover you happen to be! Ok so you and all your Albanian followers answer me this..

The medicus case, kidnapping innocent civilians and organ trafficing from 1998-2008..maybe happening as we speak/write..????????.dont say no evidence...u sound ignorant and stupid

Because of "attitudes like yours"...what, r u high?..Your albanian people kept coming (truck loads and much more) into Kosovo,Yugo. ever since Tito came to power in 1945. Serbian people alowed you to freely come and multiply...u Albos had it all...all special rights...so much rights that you became majority and then decided to steal kosovo from the serbs, with the help of Germans/Nato...Ofcourse...

I will not even speak of horrific crimes committed by the SS Albanian Nazis during WW2....100's of thousands of innocent Jews, Roma and Serbs murdered, slaughtred under Albanian Nazi knifes....

500 years of torture, rape, mutrder of serbs under Turkish muslim control...

And you speak of some suffering and lack of rights of Presevo Albanian community....your arguments, just like German,Will P. r weak...both of you belong to fachist nations that continue to devalue serbian suffering....your nations committed more murder than all the other nations world wide together, for as long as mankind has existed....

And nikolle, know this...Serbian hand will never ever leave Kosovo...You maybe won this battle right now, but the war is just starting...Serbs dont trust EU, NATO and EU r sinking slowly but surly, Russia,China (serbian friends)lending money to USA....hahaha, its a known fact.....and Nikolle...u talk too much

Timber Wolf

sj

He said Serbs have to face up to their crimes and admit them. Many on this forum deny Srebrencia ever happened. Many deny that the Albanians of Kosovo were expelled at gun point in their hundreds of thousands. Many flat out reject that the Banja Luka republic was engaged in systematic ethnic cleansing of its Croat inhabitants. These are all well documented cases of crimes committed by Serbs in the name of Serbia (for many here Mladic is a hero still). Its true, sorry

This means , you are recognizing the UDI.
Good job Mr . Tadic , i knew the time will come one day !

NIKOLLE, a forensic analyst says the mass graves are staged, ill take her word for it. These things never happened NEVER! But since the k. albanians have been trying for decades to seceed and become albania, they needed to stage eevnts like mass graves in order to assure international support for their "independence". The americans taught them how to do this, they know exactly how to paint the picture they want in the media. I do find it funny that you had no comments on you working for a propaganda agencie, already the second time i accused you and you totally ignore it. They must not want you addressing that over there at ruder finn. Either way you are a big time extremist and your comments, now that i know for sure you are being paid to say the thing you do, are irrelavent. alabanians live in Serbia, dont contribute a damn thing, and then want to steal the land they are living on. SOunds really classy doesnt it. Oh and please dont rebuttle about how serbs committed genocide blah blah blah blah, cause if that was ture, BELIEVE ME BBC would have it all over the news. THERE ARE 0 albanian MASS GRAVES

trizoo

You really are talking our of your...Serbs are not murdered daily, nor are they harassed. They have gone into some sort of self imposed exclusion. The Arthisari plan grants Serbs far more rights than Albanians have EVER enjoyed in Kosovo or Serbia. What Serbs of Kosovo want is for Belgrade to make the rules. Well forget it, that day is as lost as India is lost to Britain. How do you give someone 'special' rights? What does that even mean? The right to speak Serbian? Ditto, they have that. The right to observer Christmas? Ditto, they have that. The Kosovat government can't guarantee that individual members of the public won't commit crimes, neither can the Serbian officials promise that to the Prehsva Albanians, all they can do, is when crimes are committed, its perpetraitors brought to justice. That's it. What spexcial rights do they want? Gov. subsidies? Believe it or not, they enjoy that too (much to my chagrin). They are given equal rights, nothing more, nothing less. I repeat, if its speacial rights they want, give the Albanians the rights to be educated in their ethinc tounge, *a right enjoyed by the Serbs in Kosovo(

Willi Pfaff,

Tell me than if Serbia in the 90's acted like Germany of WWII, why then is Serbia being asked to give 15% of it's territory and Germany didn't lose a square inch?

(Ivan, 11 January 2012 15:30)

There are several mass graves containing K-Albanian bodies including women and children, the latest one found in Rudnica with 250 bodies in it. Many other massacres are well documented including Suva Reka Pizza shop massacre, Izsbica massacre, Meja massacre, Vučitrn massacre etc. Many war criminals were "convicted" by Serbia itself.

Not that you care anyway, but at least have some integrity and honor not to lie so bluntly.

Willi,

Telling people to come to terms with the past is one thing. *How* people come to terms with the past is another story. You're upset because a group of Serbs either deny or downplay Srebrenica, or even justify it as a form of self-defence from another group. Croats do the same thing with Operation Storm - a recognized crime against humanity that the Croatian state still regards as a moment of national liberation and in which the previous government went almost as far as glorifying. Where's your condemnation there? Albanians continue to deny or downplay ethnic attacks on Serbs in Kosovo both before and after 1999, or justify attacks as some sort of revenge against past aggression. Crimes against ordinary Serbs continue to go unsolved. Where's your condemnation there? In all these cases, we have one group of people interpreting a crime through the lens of self-victimhood which is perpetuated through some form of state-sponsored memory. If you're going to lay blame on one group for failing to come to terms with its past, you're going to have to blame all of them because one group's perpetuation of an ethnocentric memory fuels justification for everyone else's.

As far as your desire to single out Serbs, I'm not sure about the company you keep or the Serbs you communicate with. If it's primarily on internet sites like this, you're wasting your time with nationalists. As for me who has spent a lot of time in Serbia and has dozens of Serbian friends, I can assure you that "coming to terms with the past" is more active there than in Croatia, Bosnia, or Kosovo, where self-victimization is still a politically active discourse and Serbs serve as useful scapegoats to blame whenever problems arise. Whether or not Tadic's words here are true, it's a testament to Serbia wanting a practical solution to Kosovo unlike maximalist demands that continue to come from elsewhere.

So what are your suggestions for "coming to terms with the past"? How would you introduce steps for a society to realize this? Wagging the finger and chastising will not work. Singling out only one problem and believing it's the endemic chimaera is little more than you being angry at something you have no idea of solving. If you have some suggestions, I'm sure more than a few of us would be interested in reading about it.

That is how Germany approached their past, and it made it a better country, where anything like what they did in the past can never happen again.
(Willi Pfaff, 11 January 2012 11:18)

So Germany should never again try to design Balkan map, since Germany's ability to do it proved to be very low.

"Tadić: Solution for Kosovo lies in international arena"

And domestically to your own citizens since the 90's.

You're upset because a group of Serbs either deny or downplay Srebrenica, or even justify it as a form of self-defence from another group. Croats do the same thing with Operation Storm - a recognized crime against humanity that the Croatian state still regards as a moment of national liberation and in which the previous government went almost as far as glorifying. (Mike, 11 January 2012 19:06) Their go the Serbs on their tirades comparing Croatian Liberation Operation Storm of its own internationally recognized territory. From duped minority Serb of Croatia by Grater Belgrade Serbia criminal war pogroms. Croatians unarmed civilians that were summarily executed in the thousands and two thousand still missing to this day many kidnapped to Serbia never returned from their. Murdered ethnic cleansed in 30% of Croatian brutally war criminally occupied territory of Croatia. With 99% Croatians and many other peoples nationalities even Serbs who didn't prescribe to Grater Serbia evil pogroms were targeted by criminal Serbs and their leadership read it for your self http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vukovar . What the Serbs did criminally and supported is truly pathetic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rzQq846Yn8&feature=related yes we protected our beautiful Croatia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hCazYqft-Y&NR=1 our homes and family that God gave us from wicked vile evil. Then we went in to Bosnia to Stop the genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mistral at the invitation of Bosnia government and majority of it peoples. To stop the murderous genocide ethnic cleansing to make imperfect peace to say the least. We didn't carve out territory in Bosnia like the Serbs murderously did and claim it.

You can not find a solution when your country have commited genocide and know you acting like nothing has happend.

well, SJ, try to rember that the genoside conducted in the name of Serbia all over the balcans was the first time that anything like that happened in Europe since WWII. Screbrinca, and a lot more is comaparable to what the Germans did in WWII, even to point how they tried to depose of the people they killed. Rember what happened at the Trepco mines. I don't want to blame all the serbian people, because they follwed the some madman, just like the Germans did, and I do not want to put it on the same level as what the Germans did either, because that certainly was a lot worse, but it still is comparable. That is what the serbian public should start realizing, and it would help them to go on living in peace with itself and its neighbors.
(Willi Pfaff, 11 January 2012 13:08)


Unfortunately some eager B92 editor removed my original comment on Srebrenica. I stated that “Srebrenica is a MYTH”. As genocide means wiping out all then why did Mladic release old men, women and children?????? The Germans gave the true definition to genocide as they killed men, women and children regardless of age. So please stop paraphrasing the term your media is happy to peddle.

The memorial in Potocari have supposedly names of all killed at Srebrenica, but what is not told is that some of those on that monument are still alive today; others have names of those killed in offensives around Tusla and Sarajevo.

On the Trepco mines “…. after the war UN forensic experts went in and recovered and identified a little over 2,000 bodies (including Serbs)”. It was a fraud!!!!!

Yes there were crimes committed by Serbs but genocide is a tad too rich for any thinking person.

The problem with people like you is you believe everything they tell you on TV. Think about it; if I started a media campaign that said over and over again that Willi Pfaff is stupid would you believe it after a couple of years? Joseph Goebbels said that if you yell out a lie long enough and loud enough it becomes the truth regardless of the facts.

You have never been to these places but all of a sudden you have come out as an expert and all based on information being fed from western media sources.

I see no reply on my statement “Why don’t we see your media playing over and over Donald Rumsfeld on TV every night where his is shaking hands with Saddam Hussein and giving him chemicals to kill the Kurds?????”


He said Serbs have to face up to their crimes and admit them. Many on this forum deny Srebrencia ever happened. Many deny that the Albanians of Kosovo were expelled at gun point in their hundreds of thousands. Many flat out reject that the Banja Luka republic was engaged in systematic ethnic cleansing of its Croat inhabitants. These are all well documented cases of crimes committed by Serbs in the name of Serbia (for many here Mladic is a hero still). Its true, sorry
(Jonathan, 11 January 2012 12:47)

Wow the Serbs expelled the Croats. Is that it? Is that all you can say on the subject? What about the Croats expelling the Serbs??? Hmm?? Oh no that never happened it’s only the evil Serbs.

My favourite media story was the emaciated “prisoner” behind barbed wires and the western media feeding frenzy about concentration camps. It turned out that this guy was only waiting for transport to a Red Cross camp as a displaced person. Even the western TV presenter went to great pains to try and correct the story but to no avail – she was there and saw it all.

Yes some Albanians were expelled, but you are aware that there were 1.9 million of them in Kosovo and the vast majority were not touched? But maybe not as TV did not tell you that one. Then the pictures of Albanians walking on railways lines – of course carefully choreographed to bring up images of Auschwitz.

I’m not here to paint a saintly picture about the Serbs as some crimes were committed but what has been laid at our doorstep are outright lies.

Take a deep breath and get away from you TV. The west murdered 150 000 Iraqis during the last war and not a peep from people like you, so go and tell someone who cares about your ideas.

As far as Maldic is concerned he is a hero to me.

Willi,

I appreciate your response and I'm glad to see that despite a number of positions you have that I disagree with, there is more common ground we share. First of all, there is still a considerable degree of close minded nationalism and bigotry in the Balkans, as in any society, as you say. Increasingly, it is shown on Internet sites like this, of which I used to participate a lot more in but grew tired of the repetitive insults and self-righteous grandstanding far too many posters were making (many of whom live in Western Europe and North America where distance in both time and geography from the region has filtered opinions).

Secondly, I appreciate your response in articulating how "coming to terms with the past" can be implemented but in regards to the German model, as I'm sure you know, it wasn't immediately undertaken. In fact, if memory serves me, "coming to terms with the past" in Germany only started around the late 1960s. Before that, there was a concerted effort by the Bonn government to disassociate with National Socialism by pointing to the Nuremburg Trials and washing their hands of the matter, similar to how Belgrade has looked at the ICTY. A number of Nazi officials remained untried, and more than a few continued work in government. – something that was incredibly embarrassing once word got out. For the rest of society, the past was basically buried in an “out of sight out of mind” approach as Germans wanted to get on with their lives. Now the same patterns can be seen in the former Yugoslavia to an extent as each society knows clearly what was committed in their name. Some, as I said, openly glorify it. Others deny it. Others find excuses for it. And you can find lots of that here. Many just want to forget because, well, that's reality. Does that solve the problem? No. But does it implicate an entire society for failing to atone for the past? It should not because just as we can't blame all Germans for the Holocaust, so too can't we blame all Serbs for Srebrenica, or Croats for Operation Storm, or Albanians for being part of UCK. If anyone is ever expecting Serbs, Croats, Albanians, or anyone to one day wake up, realize their guilt and beat their chests begging for forgiveness, they’re in for a long wait because the vast majority of these people just don’t think about it in the same way Americans don’t think about slavery, or Jim Crow laws, or electing George W. Bush to a second term in office. In my opinion, a better way at "coming to terms with the past" involves three critical steps:

a) The past needs to be de-toxified; in that emotions, which can clearly define memory, need to be limited to direct perpetrators and not an entire group. To continue to ascribe collective guilt never brings any society around. There’s more to Germany than the Third Reich, just as there’s far more to Serbia than Milosevic, or Croatia to Tudjman.

b) The past needs to be objectified. Multiple sides committed multiple crimes against humanity in YU in the 1990s, yet multiple sides were victims of those crimes. If, as you rightly say you are "very well aware of acts against humanity in all the Balkan countries, before and after the wars which took place during the 90’s", it is in fact a recognition of a civil war and blame cannot be put on one group alone. To do so automatically jeopardizes reconciliation in that it minimizes the victims on one side and ignores the crimes committed by the other. There are indeed atrocities committed by Serbs in the name of Serbia, and there are also atrocities committed against Serbs not because of what they did, but because they’re Serbs. You can insert any other national group into that same sentence.

c) Reconciliation must be systemic and mutual. Too often have I seen "monuments" in Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia appear to be more interested in politicizing their own dead and demonizing an "other" than commemorating the general act of violence. While no side goes so far as to glorify their own war criminals (HDZ as the recent exclusion but that was more for political points by a dying party), I really don't think there is any sort of understanding that all sides suffered during the 1990s; rather one side's commemoration of loss is commemorated as an act of self-defense, and these narratives are reinforced over the years through insular historical memories. Serbian school textbooks barely mention Srebrenica just as Croatian textbooks go into vivid detail about Vukovar, but fail to mention the expulsion of Serbs in Storm. This itself is a fascinating (if depressing) study on reconciliation.

As for your opinions on Kosovo, I would caution against some of your interpretations of Tadic, Dacic et al. To be honest, I don't listen to any statements from Belgrade or Pristina officials anymore as much of what they say is irrelevant and for internal consumption. Thaci can posture all he wants, but he knows the K-Serbs will never be under his control. Likewise, Belgrade can say whatever it wants about Kosovo being a part of its territory, but when was the last time Belgrade had any political weight in areas outside the Serb enclaves (which even there appears to be losing influence). Tadic’s statements were of no surprise but I fail in seeing how that was political or offensive. Moreover, I fail to see how that could be interpreted as destabilizing to Albanian spheres of influence in Kosovo of which Belgrade has all but ceased trying to regain control.

I would also caution you against being that dismissive about Kosovo as part of Serbian identity. Yes, aside from a few key monasteries there's little there today. But it is part of that identity and to simply say "get over it" never works. I've been to Kosovo have seen the active Serb communities in Mitrovica and Gracanica, both of which operate outside Pristina’s jurisdiction and still look to Belgrade for legitimacy. I do feel that Kosovo has indeed distracted Serbia from more pressing issues like the economy, employment, and corruption (three things all my friends in Belgrade will tell you are far more important than what happens in Kosovo), but unfortunately the Kosovo issue has remained an open issue due to irresponsible policies by Washington and others that simply felt Belgrade would just have to "deal with it". Nearly four years into its so-called independence and the stalemate remains. Belgrade has been incredibly flexible over what basically amounts to an illegitimate recognition of self-proclaimed sovereignty outside formal international arbitration and deliberation, so for all that Belgrade lost and for all that Serb grievances have been ignored, I think Tadic deserves a break for continuing to support what glaciers of Serbian authority remain in Kosovo.

In any event, you've raised a number of issues that can certainly serve as starting points of reconciliation in the region. Like I said, I agree that nationalism and close mindedness has stymied progress on all sides, but the best way of defusing these problems across the board and once and for all, is collective engagement and mutual reconciliation.

Apologies for the long post, but you were nice enough to take the time to reply to me, I felt you deserved no less.

One more thing I would say is definitely go to Serbia. I've been there numerous times and have loved every moment of it. Belgrade and Novi Sad are amazing cities, the people are incredibly friendly and helpful (even when they know I'm an American), and I've made some incredibly good friends there who are eager to show you as much of their country outside the CNN-lens as possible. You can't judge a place if you haven't been there and only going to other places in the Balkans while just reading about Serbia gives you an incredibly lopsided view. I guarantee you that you'll have a wonderful time. Everyone who's been there loves it!

Cheers,

This is funny. Seems that our albanians brothers in Kosova have fought more for the serbian rights that for their own, according to this "solution" presented here by Tadic. If the Tadic condtions was ever to be accepted, this will mean that albanians rights in Kosovo will be seriuosly endangered. Because the serbs there together with Serbia would have much more control of Kosovo than albanians themselves. So this is another attempt by serbian authorities to undermine and destroy Kosovo indipendence and statehood. Serbian main goal as always, is to DESTROY Kosovo statehood, and not to find a solution that satisfies both albanians and serbs. So to put it simply ,Serbia is still living in the past. The tactics adopted by the serbs even today are the same as they used to be at the begining of the Yugoslav wars, like: blocking roads, dehumanizing the adversary, presenting him to the local serbs as a monster who is ready to come and eat them up, in order to instill fear and make them much more obedient to Belgarde authority. This happened in Croatia, where the croats were presented as ustashis that wanted to kill all serbs living inside Crotia. So under this false propoganda serbs started to raise barricades and arm themselves. And the only solutions for them to feel secure was : to be indipendent. Returning to Kosovo don't you find some similarities?? They have raised barricades, and want people to think, that all albanins are monsters that want to kill them. Even when Thaci sent his police to take two checkpoints in the north, it was presented to the serbian opinion, as Thaci intent was to take over the "NORTH" and make ethnic cleansing of all the serbs there. This is what Dacic said and was threatening "WAR". Even today a lot of people think that accepting Pishtina's institutions would mean, that albanians will come over there and expell them and run their lives too. This is RIDICULOUS.. Serbia should grou up, make peace first with herslef than with her neighbours.

cheers..

Sadly B92 has decided not to publish my comment that was addressed to you and Canadian Serb. I will say this though, your own government (that is the Serb gov.) announced the uncovering of mass graves containing Albanianj bodies inside Serbia proper. If you believe that the people you cote for lied to you, then do not vote in the upcoming elections. Your way of dealing with the crimes committed in your peoples name is to deny them, good luck with that. I will repeat however, I want nothing to do with a nation that point blank refuses to acknowledge the despicable acts committed in its name and its because of that that you will NEVER EVER control Kosovo again


First of all, they were very adimat in saying that there were no mass graves. So you making up that they did means nothing. What about atrocities committed by albanians? Why arent any of your generals in the hague? Seems we have owned up to all of our crimes, but albanians play some innocent victim. YOU ARE A PART OF THE LARGEST DRUG DEALING SOCIETY IN THE WORLD WHERE DO YOU GET OFF TALKING ABOUT MORALS. AND BY THE WAY KOSOVO IS STILL SERBIA!

MIKEC well said, couldnt have said it better.

bganon many Croatians apposed Herceg Bosna formation in parliament and on the street. Susak the Croatian defence minister trouble maker from Herzegovina pushed for it extreme elements and his small far rite clique. In the end they lost most of their support of the people and their nonsense evil plans fell threw. Bosnia has a good case they should take it to court definitely I have no problem with it most Croatians regret what happened. bganon you are just trying to score some cheep points with the majority far rite Serbs that don't like your middle thinking. They deny excuse worst war crimes and the massive Serb complicity of well over 90% of the horrendous crimes committed by Serbs and indicted. Also of Serbia's criminal war planing Grater Serbia territorial ambitions execution that rears its ugly head to often in the region. Only now it knows it will get its stuffing kicked if it tries those evil programs again. Today's Serbia more of the same also its "leadership" with a lot of under the radar subterfuge and stealing never wants to live up to its good potential thinks crimes will pay. Like God says what you sow that is what you will reap.

"What Serbians should realize is that they were the aggressors in these wars, and are responsible for what happened during that time, just like Germany is and was responsible for WWII with all it’s pain"
(Willi Pfaff)


Why were they the aggressors? Germany was clear aggressor, it attacked lands for which it had ABSOLUTELY NO legitimate claims, while it was much more complicated with Serbia.

And about Germany's will to do with the past - sorry, but repentance coming from losers isn't worth much.

The Kosovo issue was brought to a vote in the United Nations and then you capitulated!!

"Tadić: Solution for Kosovo in international arena"

He forgot Serbia was TKO'd in that "arena" back in 1999!

Lenard is that from the Franjo Tudjman history book?
You need professional help really. Above all you need to make up your mind whether you are Bosnian or Croatian and once you have made up your mind, you need to face the fact that Croatia tried to annex parts of Bosnia to Croatia

'We didn't carve out territory in Bosnia like the Serbs murderously did and claim it.'

Yes, thats exactly what you did. There is a name for all that all historians and observers know - Herceg Bosna. Domestic and international groups recorded the illegal stationing of Croatian troops within Bosnian territory and the war crimes Croats committed against Bosnian Muslums.

In fact Bosnia could quite easily seek reperations against Croatia, oh how that would confuse you, whose side would you be on? How convinient for you to blame everything of the Serbs so you can avoid difficult issues...

Yes some Albanians were expelled, but you are aware that there were 1.9 million of them in Kosovo and the vast majority were not touched?
As far as Maldic is concerned he is a hero to me.
(sj, 11 January 2012 23:27)
Some Albanians!!! You are right no Albanian arrive in Malaysia when you live. So no Albanian was expelled.
I didn’t read carefully your post, didn’t you mention that Albanian go way afraid from NATO bombardment?
SJ, if this fantastic scenarios that you tell us was not the opinion of a lot of Serbs, I’d had a lot of fun with your posts, but seeing that are a lot of Serbs with this theories for me is a drama first for Serbia itself than for entire Balkan. I have a non realistic hope that you write this BS with different nicknames.

It looks like another regular day at B92 with fraudulous voting, Albanians and their followers dumping their rants en masse, and a few brave Serbs who have not abandoned B92 yet trying to spread some common sense against a tsunami of ignorance and hate. My best bet: 100 poor comments in the next two hours.
(Milan, 11 January 2012 16:28)
========================

Milan, it is getting increasingly difficult to come to this site and be confronted by so many Albanian hateful and obviously untrue statements which B92 allows through.
People like Roberto and ICJ are obviously here only to irritate but their comments are constantly posted.
Many others are just annoying because they keep going on and on and on about the same old how Kosovo is independent because Yugoslavia broke up and Serbia did not succeed it.
B92 has become Albanian playground. You could not say anything of the sort about any Albanian site so Serbs are constantly subjected to this frustration without an alternative.
It's really very sad.

B92 has become Albanian playground. You could not say anything of the sort about any Albanian site so Serbs are constantly subjected to this frustration without an alternative.
It's really very sad.
(Peggy, 12 January 2012 10:06)

If Kosovo was Serbia, K-Albanians were Serbian citizens. You being against them posting their comments here, proves only your twisted mindset.

And now try to solve the "eternal question" here: If the K-Albanians are (according to you and others) Serbian citizens, why would you be against comments posted by your fellow Serbian citizens?

LENARD, first off learn to speak. Second you are completely distorting and mis representing everything you say. Nothing truthful ever comes out of you. Your political analysis is ridiculous. Time and time again you talk about Serb atrocities that have already been proven false. There are no mass graves, there was no genocide and there was no ethnic cleansing. Albanians left Kosovo under the instruction of nato. This is a good way to avoid casualties for albanians and at the same time allows nato to say the Serbs are ethnic cleansing Kosovo. The truth cannot be stopped and the lies are running out for Thaci and his regime. Soon the other 35% of the world that doesnt know whats going on in south Kosovo(drug trafficking, Organ harvesting, and human trafficking). You have a lot of nerve talking about the brutality of serbs and owning up to the past AFTER ALL ALBANIA WAS AN AXIS POWER IN WW2! When they slaughtered all christians in the area, wheres the owning up to that?

No, Mr Tadic, the Serbs have been oppressed for far too long, yet again! The solution is FREEDOM! And, Mr Tadic you are an obstacle. It is time to get out of way and let the real Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija to do "negotiations".

Nikolle,

Please do some research (honestly) about murders of Serbians in Kosovo since 1999. Please tell me that they are not bashings, assaults and murders in Kosovo of Serbians because of their ethnicity.

How can you say we have the 'right' to speak Serbian in Kosovo? Of course we do, it is our home for longer than Albanians.

How many mosques have been destructed in Kosovo since 1999??? Then answer me how many orthodox churches have been destructed since 1999???

Perhaps you might conclude on which side is intimidating the other?

How many Albanian houses have been broken into and robbed in recent times? Then answer me how many Serbian houses in Kosovo have been broken into and robbed??

Just a simple google search... I'm sure you can spread the references among various sources thus enabling you to stop calling it all PROPAGANDA.

You are closed minded and ignorant and therefore the majority of people who read your posts will switch off after the first few 'hate' sentences.

If you take a step back and put yourself in the shoes of the other side (for once) rationally then you might teach yourself some things.

PS: Presevo & Sandak are not going anywhere and the ethnic Albanians who live there can just keep kicking up a fuss & protesting as much as they want but the best option is to move back to Albania. You emigrated to our land and not vice-versa.

Most places where Albanians emigrate they urge more rights etc.

Serbs are urging more rights in their own country of Kosovo.

There is a big difference.

sj

That without a doubt is the biggest pile of garbage I have EVER read. What are you going to tell me next, WW2 was acted in Berlin studios? I whole heartedly stand by what I said, Serbs deny the evils that were done in their name. This is done as a defense mechanism or because of shame. It is a basic Freudian trick, do not accept reality and believe a lie. Frankly it scares me that a nation should wallow so deep in lies over something that could quite clearly help the advancement of its mental make up. Denials of the massacres of Srebrenica, Kosovo, Banja Luka are the same as denying Nazis were war criminals. Germans, however gruesome and horrid their past is, accept it and fight, time for Serbs to do the same. p.s. that Mladic should be a hero to you is disgusting

Mike,

Thanks for your open and honest comments to what I said here today, and you obviously also read some of my previous comments. I condemn nationalism, close mindlessness, fascism, and bigotry in any society, no matter where it is found. I am very well aware of acts against humanity in all the Balkan countries, before and after the wars which took place during the 90’s. An act of violence can’t be justified with an counter act violence, I completely agree with you on that. I personally have never been to Serbia, but know the rest of the Balkan countries pretty well, and also read quite a bit about the history and the more current political and social developments. What Serbians should realize is that they were the aggressors in these wars, and are responsible for what happened during that time, just like Germany is and was responsible for WWII with all it’s pain, suffering and the mass murder which took place back than. Srebrenica simply was the biggest mass slaughter in the European history since WWII, and the BBC documentary, which I assume you have seen as well, shows it all. It shows Karadzic and Mladic talking openly about getting rid of all the Moslems, it shows how people were put on trucks and being taken to the killing fields, and it shows the mass graves, and than there are still so many people denying it ever happened. I trust you when you say, that there is a growing awareness in the Serbian society of their recent history, but it most certainly is not shown very strongly on web sites like this one. It also isn’t reflected in the countries politics, and when the Serbian interior minister talks about war, well another war over Kosovo, my alarm bells start ringing. They also start ringing when I hear Tadic making comments like he did in Kosovo a few days ago, (well, he does it all the time) or see how the 20th anniversary of the Rupublic of Srpska is celebrated with not a word about what happened in the war.
As to your question about coming to terms with your own countries past I can only first repeat what I have been saying here all along. Reflect on it in an open way, leave nationalism out of it, learn to say, yes, my country did something wrong, was involved in acts against humanity, and I do not ever want this to happen again. Kids in school have to learn this, and I think the German approach could be a way on how to do it in Serbia as well. It is also necessary to stop lying to the Serbian people and make them aware of the fact that Kosovo will never be part of Serbia again, and stop this nonsense about Kosovo being the cradle of Serbian society. A few monasteries build in the Middle Ages don’t make it the cradle of the Serbian society. Instead the Belgrade politicians should promote exchange programs between schools in Kosovo and Serbia, so the kids learn to respect each other and start building a common future side by side in hopefully free European context. Start programs which bring the people closer together again, make them understand each others pains which were inflicted by the other side, and start a common healing process. This is just in short what I would like to say to you Mike, and I still left out a lot. But a beginning needs to be made, and that requires reflection on all sides.

Ivan

Sadly B92 has decided not to publish my comment that was addressed to you and Canadian Serb. I will say this though, your own government (that is the Serb gov.) announced the uncovering of mass graves containing Albanianj bodies inside Serbia proper. If you believe that the people you cote for lied to you, then do not vote in the upcoming elections. Your way of dealing with the crimes committed in your peoples name is to deny them, good luck with that. I will repeat however, I want nothing to do with a nation that point blank refuses to acknowledge the despicable acts committed in its name and its because of that that you will NEVER EVER control Kosovo again

Willi Pfaff,

In addition to my earlier post, when Israel went into action against Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006, the EU was its strongest critic.

The then Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, in a rage stated:

“where do they get the right to lecture Israel, he demanded recalling NATO airstrikes in Kosovo”?

European countries killed 10,000 civilians, he charged,” and none of these countries had been the target of missiles”.

Naturally they blamed all of those deaths on poor old Slobo Milosevic.

It’s during times like that when little trade secrets are let loose much like Putin recently stating that it was the US forces that killed Gaddafi not the insurgents. The US was not happy about this piece of information being given to the world.

And now try to solve the "eternal question" here: If the K-Albanians are (according to you and others) Serbian citizens, why would you be against comments posted by your fellow Serbian citizens?
(the egg or the hen?, 12 January 2012 11:24)
=============================
We definitely see k Albanians as citizens of Serbia but the ones posting here do not see themselves as that and I would imagine live outside Kosovo. You see yourselves as Albanians so don't get upset if I don't see you as Serbian citizens.

You think you are so clever with this chicken and the egg thing.

Mike,
"Belgrade has been incredibly flexible over what basically amounts to an illegitimate recognition of self-proclaimed sovereignty outside formal international arbitration and deliberation"

Mike, did you miss all that went on at the ICJ?
About coming to terms with the past, since you say that you have mostly been to Serbia and mostly have Serbian friends, don't you think your comparisons are void? You are comparing people you have met and know very well (Serbs) with people you don't know very well (Croats, Albanians, Bosniaks). How do you think that type of comparison can be convincing? Aren't you assuming things? Also, do you think coming to terms with the past is more visible in those countries that have a lot of past to come to terms with? I mean, a large percentage of the Hague indictees is ex Serbian government officials, wouldn't you say Serbian society has a lot more past to come to terms with than the other neighboring societies? And that entails that more is expected of Serbia in this regard than its neighbors.

Lenard sometimes you behave as if you have a split personality. One time saying 'We didn't carve out territory in Bosnia like the Serbs murderously did and claim it.' and the next time admitting that Croatia did this - although you try to get out of it by saying the Croatian people didn't support it. Well, if they didn't support it, they had the chance to vote for other parties and policies didn't they?

I don't remember seeing mass protests in Zagreb against annexing Bosnia to Croatia. On the contrary instead Tudjman and Milosevic were happy to meet and divide Bosnia. Strangely enough though I do remember small protests in Belgrade against Bosnian Serb policy. I do remember Milosevic calling the bombing of Sarajevo cowardly. I do remember Milosevic cutting links with Bosnian Serb leaders and imposing some sanctions. Of course part of this was just politiking and / or to prove to internationals that Belgrade and Pale policy were different. But despite that I don't remember Zagreb condeming elements of Herceg Bosna and the Boban regime in Bosnia (until later when Boban became a liability).

You want to continue to play the war crimes record? For how long - 20 years, 50 years, 1000 years? Good luck with that. I've made my position clear on this issue and I'm not going to become obsessed with one issue.

Yes, as you sow, so shall you reap. You keep sowing nationalism and bitterness and you shall reap misery and unhappiness. I will keep sowing reconciliation and moderation and I hope we will all reap a better future.