26

Tuesday, 03.01.2012.

11:15

Iran criticized for performing missile tests

The U.S., France and Israel have all criticized Iran for its decision to test-fire two long-range missiles on Monday.

Izvor: Beta

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26 Komentari

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Jebadiah

pre 12 godina

Ben,
though I appriciate your view point and undedrstand where you're coming from I do not think that you're being fair to the current situation at all. you ask who is threatening Iran's existance. I'm surprised by that rhetorical question, but I will answer in clear form. USA and Europe and Isreal are threatening Iran's existance. The act of impossing sanctions is a clear threat to a nations existence. The invasion of soverign national airspace is easily construde as a threat to national soverignty and existence. There very existence is being threatened and it is outragesous that you claim the opposite.
Ben, in 1945+ UK and France could not develop these technologies without sacrificing quality of life for their citizens. They had developed these weapons prior to completing the rebuilding of their nations. They opted to protect their nations under some artifical threat from Stalin. No one was threatening Paris, yet De Gual decided to build weapons of offensive force instead of helping the everyday needs of his people. This seems very similar to the Iranian situation. London was in rubble yet the British government saw it fight to continue their maintenance (or attempted maintenance as it ended up) of world supremacy. They bitterly defeneded their currency and right to weapons while building up a welfare state the likes communisim could almost be shocked with.
We've seen images flashing across the world of the police oppression in USA, UK, France, Russia, China and Iran (to mention simply 6 offenders) over the past year. These nations are less interested in helping the people than the people think. In all of these nations. If the people choose to mobilize against the elected ruling class, the people will, and have, been silenced.
The fact that Iran is surrounded by instability give more credence to its inalieanable right to existence and self defence. Iran speaks of retaliation, where Isreal, USA and France speak of initiation.
I can except that many people believe that these western european nations are democracies, but alas all they are a variations of a republic with representative democraticly elected officials. this is what we've now learned to call democracy. However I ask you if you let the people of France and UK cast their opinions would the nation have done what it has done, would those countries still be on the same path? Consider this with respect to the transfer of citizens taxes into privateers banks? However it is a known fact that Iranian tax dollars have been used to help the impoverished people of that country. In fact what the west likes to call a farcical election last year during the failed green revolution was predicted by no less than 3 US ngo pollsters a week prior to the election. A certain degree of fraud is possibile (no more or less than classic 2000 Floridian fraud likely) by the trend of the rural voters outweighed that of the urban ones. And for this the west deems this nation undemocratic.
Sure Iran supplies what we call terrorists in the west, with weapons. We supply what they call terrorists with weapons. That seems to be a wash if one considers all forms of government (especially those elected by the citizenry) to be equal.

Just to be fair, prior to 1979 when the western puppet regime was in power in Iran the west was providing them with the technolgy to create nuclear weapons. The volatilty of the region hasn't become much less or more since then. Iran's standard of living hasn't changed much with respect to other nations of the world, or region yet we still wanted them to have these weapons. Ask yourself why that was.
What we call premptive actions Iran considers to be terroristic.

From a purely militaristic perspective it would have been irresponsible for any nation to defend itself from an agressor according to what I'm interpreting from you. You say it is irresponsible for Iran to do so. They should feed their people (unlike the millions starving daily in the USA -- AKA richest nation in the world). The should home their people (millions homeless in the states too). They should forget about defending their national identity and allow a new master to rule the people. That is what you're saying isn't it? So why did France resist? Why did Britain resist? Why was Canada brought into a war an ocean away? Why did America resist Japanese movements?
Iran is under threat. They have been under threat. They are currently facing warlike actions directed against them.

I'd rather we all got along, but I know that there is not point in even wasting dream time with such a notion. Baring some miraculous event I think it is ideally fair that we are all able to defend ourselves.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

Mr ben - use your head - I quote -

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.
(Arn.Sweden., 4 January 2012 11:59)

those canons can shoot just over 20km meaning you would get the radiation back. so not very smart.

Comment -

- Against the wind - very clever.

They would have been used at the Seashores.

Why do you think Nuces was developed to be used in 155mm canons at all ?
for the purpose of getting the Radiation back ?.

By Mr Ben.

Arn.Sweden.

ben

pre 12 godina

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.
(Arn.Sweden., 4 January 2012 11:59)

those canons can shoot just over 20km meaning you would get the radiation back. so not very smart. that's why i gave them 2 months :)

strictly technologically speaking about the nuke it is not even that technological challenge. even Yugo had developed uranium able to arm 10 A-bombs. Even Enver Hoxha's national institute of nuclear physics in collaboration with Chinese allegedly reported some progress... i guess Romanians, Czechs and others could and most likely have done something similar...

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

To the signature - ben - !.

What do you think how long will be needed for Italy or Spain or Holland or Sweden to develop that technology?? given them 2 months and they are ready...

Comment -

Sweden could assemble a Nuce in a couple of Hours,
already in the 50ties,
if a threath from the former Sovjet union would occur.

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.

ben

pre 12 godina

(jebadiah, 3 January 2012 22:27)
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 20:24)

Jebadiah:

1. I don't think you can compare the France and UK of 1945 with Iran. You are right that both of these countries had no nuclear capacities at that time but they were allowed to obtain that technology. The difference is that both of these countries UK and France just got out of a danger to be obliterated from Nazis, thus their need for protection was understandable. you also should know that France decided to develop her nuclear program when De Gaul asked: are we sure that US will protect us if Russians nuke Paris??? Who is threatening Iran's existence today??? NO ONE. full stop.

2. UK and France are developed countries technologically, economically and are proved democracies. This cannot be said about Iran. UK and France can develop this technology without sacrificing the life quality of their citizens, and they can develop that technology without anyone's help.

3. Japan doesn't have nuclear arms but it can develop it in 3 hours as Japanese were threatening just 2-3 years ago after the tensions with China over that island... Same goes for Germany. The military power comes from technological/economical development and Iran is way behind. It has or should have other priorities. What do you think how long will be needed for Italy or Spain or Holland or Sweden to develop that technology?? given them 2 months and they are ready...

4. UK and France have neighbors which are proved democracies and their political system is extremely stable. Iran is surrounded by non stable states and hostile. Iran's neighbors on the other hand view Iran as unstable and hostile. Thus nuclear weapons in highly unstable and hostile region are dangerous for that region itself in first place.

5. Israel. Israels existence is openly threatened from many sides and would most likely become reality had they not have that deterrent force. On the other hand Israel is doing nothing to calm and make appear these threats as stupid. On the contrary, with their arrogance and stupidity Israelis are just increasing that sentiment. The paradox is why US and EU are not making clear to Israel that they cannot allow and support anymore (as de facto are doing it in this past 50 years) the obliteration of the Palestinian nation?? It's inhuman and unfair. But from who do you expected to do that from Santorum or Gingrich?? they are total priks. thus that problem is still on the table. However this does not legitimize Iran to develop nuclear weapons for the reasons i mentioned above.

this is how i see this thing. Iran is irresponsible, above all to her citizens and then the citizens of the neighboring countries.

you deserve what you seek

pre 12 godina

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!
(ivan, 3 January 2012 19:43)

And you believe with the US and Israel out of the way, Iran is going ot live in peace and harmony beside their Orthodox brothers. Its a shame a whole world would have to be damned for you to get a glimpse at what you wish for.

sj

pre 12 godina

Personally I’d love to the US, Israel and anyone else attack Iran and see how they go. The problem is Israel is so full of its own BS that it lives on another planet – it will attack but big brother has to come to the rescue.
The world has changed a lot since the days of the 1990s. The US now has a debt that is well in excess of its GDP and it could not even in their wildest dreams prosecute a war for very long otherwise it would go bankrupt. As far as China getting involved, well they can always pull out their $800 billion and watch the US disappear down the rabbit hole forever.
Since the Iraq and Afghanistan debacle the US is not in any position to carry out a long-term war plus Iran can close the Persian Gulf complete with the US sixth fleet in dry dock in Bahrain. Iran can destroy all the oils fields in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and even with the large reserves held by the US these will not be enough to keep it going for very long without rationing and we all know how the Americans are all used to rationing of petrol. This is called cutting your nose off to spit your face.
Any rational person would ask why is the US doing this? Is it for the benefit of its citizens?
It not for the benefit of its citizens except a few – the ones who have already greatly benefitted form the Iraq war such as Halliburton et al. The US has now reached a point where its politicians have been bought lock stock and barrel and they represent only the corporations and no one else.
There are rumors going around that the US has a list of overseas bases it has to close just to keep its head above water and if I was an Albanian I’d be very worried because it is also rumored that Camp Bondsteel is one of those on the list. But if it’s not on this list it’s definitely on the next – happy new year.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!
(ivan, 3 January 2012 19:43)

Comment -

Israel has the Guts to strike Iran and Israel will if the US drags Her Feet.

The rest of your post is craap according to my opinion.

Arn.Sweden.

Arn.Swede.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

(Arn.Sweden., 3 January 2012 15:00
You lost me there.Sorry I can't follow.
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 16:28)

Comment -

Theoretically we live in a free world,
and any Nation can use that Freedom according to their choise.

Whom of the Big Powers of the World do you chose to rule in it according to their Choise ?

If not the US -
It would probably have been Nazi-Germany togheter with Facist Italy and Japan.

Do you thik anybody else would be a better choise than the US ?

Communist China ? - Islam - ? or have you any suggestion - ?.

If you want to understand World-Politic of Today,
you Must know History of Yesterday.

But Yes -
The US has done wery serious Misstakes the Last Decades,
led by the Usefull Idiots as Clinton and Now Obama,
as according to me,
the biggest Political Jerks in the Political History of the US.

If you dont understand this dont bother.

Arn.Sweden.

jebadiah

pre 12 godina

ben, according to your comment:

What Iran is doing is hugely irresponsible. Why would a country with less than 70 million people with huge economic problems would want to invest in nuclear weapons and develop offensive capacities that would make them a major player internationally???

consider way back when, when france and uk were seated as permanent members of unsc. they were both well under 70 million people. both countries had crumbled economies and yet they were given this privilage and more so the right (as it would be a right according to you) to develop offensive nuclear weapons. why were these two small (even for that time) nations, with no economic hope allowed to become major international players?
why were the french and english allowed (and continue to be allowed) to make these weapons? why is isreal (barely 5 million people) allowed to secretly build these weapons?

it is irresponsible of every holder of nuclear weapons, those that stockpile them, those that use, have used or continue to threaten to use them. without nuclear weapons anywhere there is no threat, but those that have them up the ante and continue to hang that fact over the heads of those that don't. the responsibility of a national defense division is to do what is necessary to defend their nation, and when a nation is being openly threatened with santions (an act of war), cyber attacks and physical attacks it is prudent to defend yourself. the only known defense to nuclear (and other high potentcy weapons) is to put everything into a MAD field of play.

i dislike the use and notion of nukes as much as the next guy, but its hard to blame those trying to catch up. it is those that are setting the standard that should be looked at.
without creating a massive military industrial complex (us/russia/china/uk/france/germany/etc...) they wouldn't be able to sell these high tech weapons on the market. those weapons wouldn't make it to the nations we call our enemies and we wouldn't need to escalate our defensive positions. but alas everyone escalates their weaponry in order to create a deturant against those that are already highly sophisticated and have shown their true thirst for everything that isn't theirs.

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

(ben, 3 January 2012 18:44)

Where to you see in my posting any mentioning of a pan-orthodox project? I mentioned China getting involved for the simple reason that since they get a big chunk of their energy needs from Iran it follows that they will refuse any sanctions against their oil exports.

China's domestic problems pale in comparison to the problems facing the West.A country with little debt,$4 trillion in reserves and as much invested buying quality assets all over the world.

I have never been a fan of nuclear weapons and I wished that countries spent their citizens taxes on bettering their lives instead on nuclear missiles and other weapons.However we're not living in a sane world and Iran's decision to proceed with developing them has more to do with bargaining power than actually using them.

Your approach to Iran is not even-handed.You're against them developing the nukes but at the same time you're totally silent on the fact that Israel are in possession of approximately 200 of them.If the nukes provide security for Israel they would also provide security for Iran.But the nukes are a false smokescreen in the current phase of Israel/US/Iran sabre rattling.The real prize is regime change.

winston

pre 12 godina

Let's just change the NWO. I can live with that. I know Iranians, and they are great people - probably a lot better than a lot of Westerners. Why should the USA rule the world forever? They are not nice, anymore.

szemi

pre 12 godina

What is your comments on the article?Have you got one?Are you capable of having one?If not STFU and stop engaging in personal attacks.
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 16:26)

Albanians and arguments do not go hand in hand as you must have noticed already.And our paste and copy kid is the best example.

szemi

pre 12 godina

sorry my racist friend Iranians are not Arabs.
(mark, 3 January 2012 15:21)



Neither are azeris mr "wisdom"
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=72100

ivan

pre 12 godina

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!

ben

pre 12 godina

(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 12:20)

following your link

http://thespiritoftruth.blogspot.com/2010/12/why-is-china-building-empty-cities.html

click on the 14min video...
it seems China will have plenty of homework before going out and helping out anyone: Iran or Serbia...

combined with high inflation signs that China is experiencing now i think your pan-orthodox project will crumble before living a single day.

What Iran is doing is hugely irresponsible. Why would a country with less than 70 million people with huge economic problems would want to invest in nuclear weapons and develop offensive capacities that would make them a major player internationally???

If Iran thinks that they can do that today and play a big boy with nukes who would then tomorrow have the courage to say to Saudis or Egyptians or Turks or Nigerians not to do the same?? If every average country in the world develops nuclear weapons how safe this world would be???

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

ol Leonadis you are a siily boy.
(marak, 3 January 2012 14:55

Hi Marak

What is your comments on the article?Have you got one?Are you capable of having one?If not STFU and stop engaging in personal attacks.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

To Leonidas.

Neither China or Russia can do anything to protect Iran this time,
Iran would not be invaded though.
The Coming Military strike against Iran will be conducted with Nuces, Cruise Missiles and Airstrikes only.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+38&version=KJ21

China/Magog will likely seize the opportunity to attack Taiwan,
but fail and have to submit to Japan/Gog.

You will have to wait another 3-5 years for the 3rd World War in Ezekiel above to comense.

Arn.Sweden.

winston

pre 12 godina

Iran tests a missile, which I believe it has the right to do, and the hypocrite nations are out in full force. "How dare a country but the USA and its allies test fire a rocket"? Never mind that the USA has been irradiating the South Pacific with it's nuclear weapons testing for decades. Can someone please explain to me why America believes it has a God given right to do whatever it wants in the world, and no one else does?

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

Can someone please explain to me why America believes it has a God given right to do whatever it wants in the world, and no one else does?
(winston, 3 January 2012 15:02)

Comment -

First of all -

dont you think even China, Russia,Germany and Japan do want to do what they want in the world ?

If - whom would prevent them from doing that?.

Read your History - sombody will rule the World - there is no Power - Vacum - and take your pic as to whom will do it.

No One is perfect.

Arn.Sweden.

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

One can see clearly the Obama-Sarkozi-Barak scumbag team trying to drum up as much neo-con jingoism as possible in their War preparations against Iran.When Iran is invaded (illegally)the Middle East will be turned into one war zone from Morrocco to Pakistan and could possibly involve Russia and China.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/china-will-not-hesitate-protect-iran-even-third-world-war

winston

pre 12 godina

Iran tests a missile, which I believe it has the right to do, and the hypocrite nations are out in full force. "How dare a country but the USA and its allies test fire a rocket"? Never mind that the USA has been irradiating the South Pacific with it's nuclear weapons testing for decades. Can someone please explain to me why America believes it has a God given right to do whatever it wants in the world, and no one else does?

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

One can see clearly the Obama-Sarkozi-Barak scumbag team trying to drum up as much neo-con jingoism as possible in their War preparations against Iran.When Iran is invaded (illegally)the Middle East will be turned into one war zone from Morrocco to Pakistan and could possibly involve Russia and China.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/china-will-not-hesitate-protect-iran-even-third-world-war

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

ol Leonadis you are a siily boy.
(marak, 3 January 2012 14:55

Hi Marak

What is your comments on the article?Have you got one?Are you capable of having one?If not STFU and stop engaging in personal attacks.

ben

pre 12 godina

(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 12:20)

following your link

http://thespiritoftruth.blogspot.com/2010/12/why-is-china-building-empty-cities.html

click on the 14min video...
it seems China will have plenty of homework before going out and helping out anyone: Iran or Serbia...

combined with high inflation signs that China is experiencing now i think your pan-orthodox project will crumble before living a single day.

What Iran is doing is hugely irresponsible. Why would a country with less than 70 million people with huge economic problems would want to invest in nuclear weapons and develop offensive capacities that would make them a major player internationally???

If Iran thinks that they can do that today and play a big boy with nukes who would then tomorrow have the courage to say to Saudis or Egyptians or Turks or Nigerians not to do the same?? If every average country in the world develops nuclear weapons how safe this world would be???

ivan

pre 12 godina

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!

szemi

pre 12 godina

What is your comments on the article?Have you got one?Are you capable of having one?If not STFU and stop engaging in personal attacks.
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 16:26)

Albanians and arguments do not go hand in hand as you must have noticed already.And our paste and copy kid is the best example.

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

(ben, 3 January 2012 18:44)

Where to you see in my posting any mentioning of a pan-orthodox project? I mentioned China getting involved for the simple reason that since they get a big chunk of their energy needs from Iran it follows that they will refuse any sanctions against their oil exports.

China's domestic problems pale in comparison to the problems facing the West.A country with little debt,$4 trillion in reserves and as much invested buying quality assets all over the world.

I have never been a fan of nuclear weapons and I wished that countries spent their citizens taxes on bettering their lives instead on nuclear missiles and other weapons.However we're not living in a sane world and Iran's decision to proceed with developing them has more to do with bargaining power than actually using them.

Your approach to Iran is not even-handed.You're against them developing the nukes but at the same time you're totally silent on the fact that Israel are in possession of approximately 200 of them.If the nukes provide security for Israel they would also provide security for Iran.But the nukes are a false smokescreen in the current phase of Israel/US/Iran sabre rattling.The real prize is regime change.

sj

pre 12 godina

Personally I’d love to the US, Israel and anyone else attack Iran and see how they go. The problem is Israel is so full of its own BS that it lives on another planet – it will attack but big brother has to come to the rescue.
The world has changed a lot since the days of the 1990s. The US now has a debt that is well in excess of its GDP and it could not even in their wildest dreams prosecute a war for very long otherwise it would go bankrupt. As far as China getting involved, well they can always pull out their $800 billion and watch the US disappear down the rabbit hole forever.
Since the Iraq and Afghanistan debacle the US is not in any position to carry out a long-term war plus Iran can close the Persian Gulf complete with the US sixth fleet in dry dock in Bahrain. Iran can destroy all the oils fields in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and even with the large reserves held by the US these will not be enough to keep it going for very long without rationing and we all know how the Americans are all used to rationing of petrol. This is called cutting your nose off to spit your face.
Any rational person would ask why is the US doing this? Is it for the benefit of its citizens?
It not for the benefit of its citizens except a few – the ones who have already greatly benefitted form the Iraq war such as Halliburton et al. The US has now reached a point where its politicians have been bought lock stock and barrel and they represent only the corporations and no one else.
There are rumors going around that the US has a list of overseas bases it has to close just to keep its head above water and if I was an Albanian I’d be very worried because it is also rumored that Camp Bondsteel is one of those on the list. But if it’s not on this list it’s definitely on the next – happy new year.

szemi

pre 12 godina

sorry my racist friend Iranians are not Arabs.
(mark, 3 January 2012 15:21)



Neither are azeris mr "wisdom"
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=72100

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

Can someone please explain to me why America believes it has a God given right to do whatever it wants in the world, and no one else does?
(winston, 3 January 2012 15:02)

Comment -

First of all -

dont you think even China, Russia,Germany and Japan do want to do what they want in the world ?

If - whom would prevent them from doing that?.

Read your History - sombody will rule the World - there is no Power - Vacum - and take your pic as to whom will do it.

No One is perfect.

Arn.Sweden.

winston

pre 12 godina

Let's just change the NWO. I can live with that. I know Iranians, and they are great people - probably a lot better than a lot of Westerners. Why should the USA rule the world forever? They are not nice, anymore.

jebadiah

pre 12 godina

ben, according to your comment:

What Iran is doing is hugely irresponsible. Why would a country with less than 70 million people with huge economic problems would want to invest in nuclear weapons and develop offensive capacities that would make them a major player internationally???

consider way back when, when france and uk were seated as permanent members of unsc. they were both well under 70 million people. both countries had crumbled economies and yet they were given this privilage and more so the right (as it would be a right according to you) to develop offensive nuclear weapons. why were these two small (even for that time) nations, with no economic hope allowed to become major international players?
why were the french and english allowed (and continue to be allowed) to make these weapons? why is isreal (barely 5 million people) allowed to secretly build these weapons?

it is irresponsible of every holder of nuclear weapons, those that stockpile them, those that use, have used or continue to threaten to use them. without nuclear weapons anywhere there is no threat, but those that have them up the ante and continue to hang that fact over the heads of those that don't. the responsibility of a national defense division is to do what is necessary to defend their nation, and when a nation is being openly threatened with santions (an act of war), cyber attacks and physical attacks it is prudent to defend yourself. the only known defense to nuclear (and other high potentcy weapons) is to put everything into a MAD field of play.

i dislike the use and notion of nukes as much as the next guy, but its hard to blame those trying to catch up. it is those that are setting the standard that should be looked at.
without creating a massive military industrial complex (us/russia/china/uk/france/germany/etc...) they wouldn't be able to sell these high tech weapons on the market. those weapons wouldn't make it to the nations we call our enemies and we wouldn't need to escalate our defensive positions. but alas everyone escalates their weaponry in order to create a deturant against those that are already highly sophisticated and have shown their true thirst for everything that isn't theirs.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!
(ivan, 3 January 2012 19:43)

Comment -

Israel has the Guts to strike Iran and Israel will if the US drags Her Feet.

The rest of your post is craap according to my opinion.

Arn.Sweden.

Jebadiah

pre 12 godina

Ben,
though I appriciate your view point and undedrstand where you're coming from I do not think that you're being fair to the current situation at all. you ask who is threatening Iran's existance. I'm surprised by that rhetorical question, but I will answer in clear form. USA and Europe and Isreal are threatening Iran's existance. The act of impossing sanctions is a clear threat to a nations existence. The invasion of soverign national airspace is easily construde as a threat to national soverignty and existence. There very existence is being threatened and it is outragesous that you claim the opposite.
Ben, in 1945+ UK and France could not develop these technologies without sacrificing quality of life for their citizens. They had developed these weapons prior to completing the rebuilding of their nations. They opted to protect their nations under some artifical threat from Stalin. No one was threatening Paris, yet De Gual decided to build weapons of offensive force instead of helping the everyday needs of his people. This seems very similar to the Iranian situation. London was in rubble yet the British government saw it fight to continue their maintenance (or attempted maintenance as it ended up) of world supremacy. They bitterly defeneded their currency and right to weapons while building up a welfare state the likes communisim could almost be shocked with.
We've seen images flashing across the world of the police oppression in USA, UK, France, Russia, China and Iran (to mention simply 6 offenders) over the past year. These nations are less interested in helping the people than the people think. In all of these nations. If the people choose to mobilize against the elected ruling class, the people will, and have, been silenced.
The fact that Iran is surrounded by instability give more credence to its inalieanable right to existence and self defence. Iran speaks of retaliation, where Isreal, USA and France speak of initiation.
I can except that many people believe that these western european nations are democracies, but alas all they are a variations of a republic with representative democraticly elected officials. this is what we've now learned to call democracy. However I ask you if you let the people of France and UK cast their opinions would the nation have done what it has done, would those countries still be on the same path? Consider this with respect to the transfer of citizens taxes into privateers banks? However it is a known fact that Iranian tax dollars have been used to help the impoverished people of that country. In fact what the west likes to call a farcical election last year during the failed green revolution was predicted by no less than 3 US ngo pollsters a week prior to the election. A certain degree of fraud is possibile (no more or less than classic 2000 Floridian fraud likely) by the trend of the rural voters outweighed that of the urban ones. And for this the west deems this nation undemocratic.
Sure Iran supplies what we call terrorists in the west, with weapons. We supply what they call terrorists with weapons. That seems to be a wash if one considers all forms of government (especially those elected by the citizenry) to be equal.

Just to be fair, prior to 1979 when the western puppet regime was in power in Iran the west was providing them with the technolgy to create nuclear weapons. The volatilty of the region hasn't become much less or more since then. Iran's standard of living hasn't changed much with respect to other nations of the world, or region yet we still wanted them to have these weapons. Ask yourself why that was.
What we call premptive actions Iran considers to be terroristic.

From a purely militaristic perspective it would have been irresponsible for any nation to defend itself from an agressor according to what I'm interpreting from you. You say it is irresponsible for Iran to do so. They should feed their people (unlike the millions starving daily in the USA -- AKA richest nation in the world). The should home their people (millions homeless in the states too). They should forget about defending their national identity and allow a new master to rule the people. That is what you're saying isn't it? So why did France resist? Why did Britain resist? Why was Canada brought into a war an ocean away? Why did America resist Japanese movements?
Iran is under threat. They have been under threat. They are currently facing warlike actions directed against them.

I'd rather we all got along, but I know that there is not point in even wasting dream time with such a notion. Baring some miraculous event I think it is ideally fair that we are all able to defend ourselves.

you deserve what you seek

pre 12 godina

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!
(ivan, 3 January 2012 19:43)

And you believe with the US and Israel out of the way, Iran is going ot live in peace and harmony beside their Orthodox brothers. Its a shame a whole world would have to be damned for you to get a glimpse at what you wish for.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

To Leonidas.

Neither China or Russia can do anything to protect Iran this time,
Iran would not be invaded though.
The Coming Military strike against Iran will be conducted with Nuces, Cruise Missiles and Airstrikes only.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+38&version=KJ21

China/Magog will likely seize the opportunity to attack Taiwan,
but fail and have to submit to Japan/Gog.

You will have to wait another 3-5 years for the 3rd World War in Ezekiel above to comense.

Arn.Sweden.

ben

pre 12 godina

(jebadiah, 3 January 2012 22:27)
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 20:24)

Jebadiah:

1. I don't think you can compare the France and UK of 1945 with Iran. You are right that both of these countries had no nuclear capacities at that time but they were allowed to obtain that technology. The difference is that both of these countries UK and France just got out of a danger to be obliterated from Nazis, thus their need for protection was understandable. you also should know that France decided to develop her nuclear program when De Gaul asked: are we sure that US will protect us if Russians nuke Paris??? Who is threatening Iran's existence today??? NO ONE. full stop.

2. UK and France are developed countries technologically, economically and are proved democracies. This cannot be said about Iran. UK and France can develop this technology without sacrificing the life quality of their citizens, and they can develop that technology without anyone's help.

3. Japan doesn't have nuclear arms but it can develop it in 3 hours as Japanese were threatening just 2-3 years ago after the tensions with China over that island... Same goes for Germany. The military power comes from technological/economical development and Iran is way behind. It has or should have other priorities. What do you think how long will be needed for Italy or Spain or Holland or Sweden to develop that technology?? given them 2 months and they are ready...

4. UK and France have neighbors which are proved democracies and their political system is extremely stable. Iran is surrounded by non stable states and hostile. Iran's neighbors on the other hand view Iran as unstable and hostile. Thus nuclear weapons in highly unstable and hostile region are dangerous for that region itself in first place.

5. Israel. Israels existence is openly threatened from many sides and would most likely become reality had they not have that deterrent force. On the other hand Israel is doing nothing to calm and make appear these threats as stupid. On the contrary, with their arrogance and stupidity Israelis are just increasing that sentiment. The paradox is why US and EU are not making clear to Israel that they cannot allow and support anymore (as de facto are doing it in this past 50 years) the obliteration of the Palestinian nation?? It's inhuman and unfair. But from who do you expected to do that from Santorum or Gingrich?? they are total priks. thus that problem is still on the table. However this does not legitimize Iran to develop nuclear weapons for the reasons i mentioned above.

this is how i see this thing. Iran is irresponsible, above all to her citizens and then the citizens of the neighboring countries.

Arn.Swede.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

(Arn.Sweden., 3 January 2012 15:00
You lost me there.Sorry I can't follow.
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 16:28)

Comment -

Theoretically we live in a free world,
and any Nation can use that Freedom according to their choise.

Whom of the Big Powers of the World do you chose to rule in it according to their Choise ?

If not the US -
It would probably have been Nazi-Germany togheter with Facist Italy and Japan.

Do you thik anybody else would be a better choise than the US ?

Communist China ? - Islam - ? or have you any suggestion - ?.

If you want to understand World-Politic of Today,
you Must know History of Yesterday.

But Yes -
The US has done wery serious Misstakes the Last Decades,
led by the Usefull Idiots as Clinton and Now Obama,
as according to me,
the biggest Political Jerks in the Political History of the US.

If you dont understand this dont bother.

Arn.Sweden.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

To the signature - ben - !.

What do you think how long will be needed for Italy or Spain or Holland or Sweden to develop that technology?? given them 2 months and they are ready...

Comment -

Sweden could assemble a Nuce in a couple of Hours,
already in the 50ties,
if a threath from the former Sovjet union would occur.

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.

ben

pre 12 godina

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.
(Arn.Sweden., 4 January 2012 11:59)

those canons can shoot just over 20km meaning you would get the radiation back. so not very smart. that's why i gave them 2 months :)

strictly technologically speaking about the nuke it is not even that technological challenge. even Yugo had developed uranium able to arm 10 A-bombs. Even Enver Hoxha's national institute of nuclear physics in collaboration with Chinese allegedly reported some progress... i guess Romanians, Czechs and others could and most likely have done something similar...

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

Mr ben - use your head - I quote -

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.
(Arn.Sweden., 4 January 2012 11:59)

those canons can shoot just over 20km meaning you would get the radiation back. so not very smart.

Comment -

- Against the wind - very clever.

They would have been used at the Seashores.

Why do you think Nuces was developed to be used in 155mm canons at all ?
for the purpose of getting the Radiation back ?.

By Mr Ben.

Arn.Sweden.

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

One can see clearly the Obama-Sarkozi-Barak scumbag team trying to drum up as much neo-con jingoism as possible in their War preparations against Iran.When Iran is invaded (illegally)the Middle East will be turned into one war zone from Morrocco to Pakistan and could possibly involve Russia and China.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/china-will-not-hesitate-protect-iran-even-third-world-war

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

ol Leonadis you are a siily boy.
(marak, 3 January 2012 14:55

Hi Marak

What is your comments on the article?Have you got one?Are you capable of having one?If not STFU and stop engaging in personal attacks.

ben

pre 12 godina

(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 12:20)

following your link

http://thespiritoftruth.blogspot.com/2010/12/why-is-china-building-empty-cities.html

click on the 14min video...
it seems China will have plenty of homework before going out and helping out anyone: Iran or Serbia...

combined with high inflation signs that China is experiencing now i think your pan-orthodox project will crumble before living a single day.

What Iran is doing is hugely irresponsible. Why would a country with less than 70 million people with huge economic problems would want to invest in nuclear weapons and develop offensive capacities that would make them a major player internationally???

If Iran thinks that they can do that today and play a big boy with nukes who would then tomorrow have the courage to say to Saudis or Egyptians or Turks or Nigerians not to do the same?? If every average country in the world develops nuclear weapons how safe this world would be???

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

To Leonidas.

Neither China or Russia can do anything to protect Iran this time,
Iran would not be invaded though.
The Coming Military strike against Iran will be conducted with Nuces, Cruise Missiles and Airstrikes only.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+38&version=KJ21

China/Magog will likely seize the opportunity to attack Taiwan,
but fail and have to submit to Japan/Gog.

You will have to wait another 3-5 years for the 3rd World War in Ezekiel above to comense.

Arn.Sweden.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!
(ivan, 3 January 2012 19:43)

Comment -

Israel has the Guts to strike Iran and Israel will if the US drags Her Feet.

The rest of your post is craap according to my opinion.

Arn.Sweden.

ivan

pre 12 godina

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!

winston

pre 12 godina

Iran tests a missile, which I believe it has the right to do, and the hypocrite nations are out in full force. "How dare a country but the USA and its allies test fire a rocket"? Never mind that the USA has been irradiating the South Pacific with it's nuclear weapons testing for decades. Can someone please explain to me why America believes it has a God given right to do whatever it wants in the world, and no one else does?

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

Can someone please explain to me why America believes it has a God given right to do whatever it wants in the world, and no one else does?
(winston, 3 January 2012 15:02)

Comment -

First of all -

dont you think even China, Russia,Germany and Japan do want to do what they want in the world ?

If - whom would prevent them from doing that?.

Read your History - sombody will rule the World - there is no Power - Vacum - and take your pic as to whom will do it.

No One is perfect.

Arn.Sweden.

Arn.Swede.

pre 12 godina

I Quote -

(Arn.Sweden., 3 January 2012 15:00
You lost me there.Sorry I can't follow.
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 16:28)

Comment -

Theoretically we live in a free world,
and any Nation can use that Freedom according to their choise.

Whom of the Big Powers of the World do you chose to rule in it according to their Choise ?

If not the US -
It would probably have been Nazi-Germany togheter with Facist Italy and Japan.

Do you thik anybody else would be a better choise than the US ?

Communist China ? - Islam - ? or have you any suggestion - ?.

If you want to understand World-Politic of Today,
you Must know History of Yesterday.

But Yes -
The US has done wery serious Misstakes the Last Decades,
led by the Usefull Idiots as Clinton and Now Obama,
as according to me,
the biggest Political Jerks in the Political History of the US.

If you dont understand this dont bother.

Arn.Sweden.

ben

pre 12 godina

(jebadiah, 3 January 2012 22:27)
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 20:24)

Jebadiah:

1. I don't think you can compare the France and UK of 1945 with Iran. You are right that both of these countries had no nuclear capacities at that time but they were allowed to obtain that technology. The difference is that both of these countries UK and France just got out of a danger to be obliterated from Nazis, thus their need for protection was understandable. you also should know that France decided to develop her nuclear program when De Gaul asked: are we sure that US will protect us if Russians nuke Paris??? Who is threatening Iran's existence today??? NO ONE. full stop.

2. UK and France are developed countries technologically, economically and are proved democracies. This cannot be said about Iran. UK and France can develop this technology without sacrificing the life quality of their citizens, and they can develop that technology without anyone's help.

3. Japan doesn't have nuclear arms but it can develop it in 3 hours as Japanese were threatening just 2-3 years ago after the tensions with China over that island... Same goes for Germany. The military power comes from technological/economical development and Iran is way behind. It has or should have other priorities. What do you think how long will be needed for Italy or Spain or Holland or Sweden to develop that technology?? given them 2 months and they are ready...

4. UK and France have neighbors which are proved democracies and their political system is extremely stable. Iran is surrounded by non stable states and hostile. Iran's neighbors on the other hand view Iran as unstable and hostile. Thus nuclear weapons in highly unstable and hostile region are dangerous for that region itself in first place.

5. Israel. Israels existence is openly threatened from many sides and would most likely become reality had they not have that deterrent force. On the other hand Israel is doing nothing to calm and make appear these threats as stupid. On the contrary, with their arrogance and stupidity Israelis are just increasing that sentiment. The paradox is why US and EU are not making clear to Israel that they cannot allow and support anymore (as de facto are doing it in this past 50 years) the obliteration of the Palestinian nation?? It's inhuman and unfair. But from who do you expected to do that from Santorum or Gingrich?? they are total priks. thus that problem is still on the table. However this does not legitimize Iran to develop nuclear weapons for the reasons i mentioned above.

this is how i see this thing. Iran is irresponsible, above all to her citizens and then the citizens of the neighboring countries.

ben

pre 12 godina

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.
(Arn.Sweden., 4 January 2012 11:59)

those canons can shoot just over 20km meaning you would get the radiation back. so not very smart. that's why i gave them 2 months :)

strictly technologically speaking about the nuke it is not even that technological challenge. even Yugo had developed uranium able to arm 10 A-bombs. Even Enver Hoxha's national institute of nuclear physics in collaboration with Chinese allegedly reported some progress... i guess Romanians, Czechs and others could and most likely have done something similar...

szemi

pre 12 godina

What is your comments on the article?Have you got one?Are you capable of having one?If not STFU and stop engaging in personal attacks.
(Leonidas, 3 January 2012 16:26)

Albanians and arguments do not go hand in hand as you must have noticed already.And our paste and copy kid is the best example.

szemi

pre 12 godina

sorry my racist friend Iranians are not Arabs.
(mark, 3 January 2012 15:21)



Neither are azeris mr "wisdom"
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=72100

winston

pre 12 godina

Let's just change the NWO. I can live with that. I know Iranians, and they are great people - probably a lot better than a lot of Westerners. Why should the USA rule the world forever? They are not nice, anymore.

Jebadiah

pre 12 godina

Ben,
though I appriciate your view point and undedrstand where you're coming from I do not think that you're being fair to the current situation at all. you ask who is threatening Iran's existance. I'm surprised by that rhetorical question, but I will answer in clear form. USA and Europe and Isreal are threatening Iran's existance. The act of impossing sanctions is a clear threat to a nations existence. The invasion of soverign national airspace is easily construde as a threat to national soverignty and existence. There very existence is being threatened and it is outragesous that you claim the opposite.
Ben, in 1945+ UK and France could not develop these technologies without sacrificing quality of life for their citizens. They had developed these weapons prior to completing the rebuilding of their nations. They opted to protect their nations under some artifical threat from Stalin. No one was threatening Paris, yet De Gual decided to build weapons of offensive force instead of helping the everyday needs of his people. This seems very similar to the Iranian situation. London was in rubble yet the British government saw it fight to continue their maintenance (or attempted maintenance as it ended up) of world supremacy. They bitterly defeneded their currency and right to weapons while building up a welfare state the likes communisim could almost be shocked with.
We've seen images flashing across the world of the police oppression in USA, UK, France, Russia, China and Iran (to mention simply 6 offenders) over the past year. These nations are less interested in helping the people than the people think. In all of these nations. If the people choose to mobilize against the elected ruling class, the people will, and have, been silenced.
The fact that Iran is surrounded by instability give more credence to its inalieanable right to existence and self defence. Iran speaks of retaliation, where Isreal, USA and France speak of initiation.
I can except that many people believe that these western european nations are democracies, but alas all they are a variations of a republic with representative democraticly elected officials. this is what we've now learned to call democracy. However I ask you if you let the people of France and UK cast their opinions would the nation have done what it has done, would those countries still be on the same path? Consider this with respect to the transfer of citizens taxes into privateers banks? However it is a known fact that Iranian tax dollars have been used to help the impoverished people of that country. In fact what the west likes to call a farcical election last year during the failed green revolution was predicted by no less than 3 US ngo pollsters a week prior to the election. A certain degree of fraud is possibile (no more or less than classic 2000 Floridian fraud likely) by the trend of the rural voters outweighed that of the urban ones. And for this the west deems this nation undemocratic.
Sure Iran supplies what we call terrorists in the west, with weapons. We supply what they call terrorists with weapons. That seems to be a wash if one considers all forms of government (especially those elected by the citizenry) to be equal.

Just to be fair, prior to 1979 when the western puppet regime was in power in Iran the west was providing them with the technolgy to create nuclear weapons. The volatilty of the region hasn't become much less or more since then. Iran's standard of living hasn't changed much with respect to other nations of the world, or region yet we still wanted them to have these weapons. Ask yourself why that was.
What we call premptive actions Iran considers to be terroristic.

From a purely militaristic perspective it would have been irresponsible for any nation to defend itself from an agressor according to what I'm interpreting from you. You say it is irresponsible for Iran to do so. They should feed their people (unlike the millions starving daily in the USA -- AKA richest nation in the world). The should home their people (millions homeless in the states too). They should forget about defending their national identity and allow a new master to rule the people. That is what you're saying isn't it? So why did France resist? Why did Britain resist? Why was Canada brought into a war an ocean away? Why did America resist Japanese movements?
Iran is under threat. They have been under threat. They are currently facing warlike actions directed against them.

I'd rather we all got along, but I know that there is not point in even wasting dream time with such a notion. Baring some miraculous event I think it is ideally fair that we are all able to defend ourselves.

Leonidas

pre 12 godina

(ben, 3 January 2012 18:44)

Where to you see in my posting any mentioning of a pan-orthodox project? I mentioned China getting involved for the simple reason that since they get a big chunk of their energy needs from Iran it follows that they will refuse any sanctions against their oil exports.

China's domestic problems pale in comparison to the problems facing the West.A country with little debt,$4 trillion in reserves and as much invested buying quality assets all over the world.

I have never been a fan of nuclear weapons and I wished that countries spent their citizens taxes on bettering their lives instead on nuclear missiles and other weapons.However we're not living in a sane world and Iran's decision to proceed with developing them has more to do with bargaining power than actually using them.

Your approach to Iran is not even-handed.You're against them developing the nukes but at the same time you're totally silent on the fact that Israel are in possession of approximately 200 of them.If the nukes provide security for Israel they would also provide security for Iran.But the nukes are a false smokescreen in the current phase of Israel/US/Iran sabre rattling.The real prize is regime change.

jebadiah

pre 12 godina

ben, according to your comment:

What Iran is doing is hugely irresponsible. Why would a country with less than 70 million people with huge economic problems would want to invest in nuclear weapons and develop offensive capacities that would make them a major player internationally???

consider way back when, when france and uk were seated as permanent members of unsc. they were both well under 70 million people. both countries had crumbled economies and yet they were given this privilage and more so the right (as it would be a right according to you) to develop offensive nuclear weapons. why were these two small (even for that time) nations, with no economic hope allowed to become major international players?
why were the french and english allowed (and continue to be allowed) to make these weapons? why is isreal (barely 5 million people) allowed to secretly build these weapons?

it is irresponsible of every holder of nuclear weapons, those that stockpile them, those that use, have used or continue to threaten to use them. without nuclear weapons anywhere there is no threat, but those that have them up the ante and continue to hang that fact over the heads of those that don't. the responsibility of a national defense division is to do what is necessary to defend their nation, and when a nation is being openly threatened with santions (an act of war), cyber attacks and physical attacks it is prudent to defend yourself. the only known defense to nuclear (and other high potentcy weapons) is to put everything into a MAD field of play.

i dislike the use and notion of nukes as much as the next guy, but its hard to blame those trying to catch up. it is those that are setting the standard that should be looked at.
without creating a massive military industrial complex (us/russia/china/uk/france/germany/etc...) they wouldn't be able to sell these high tech weapons on the market. those weapons wouldn't make it to the nations we call our enemies and we wouldn't need to escalate our defensive positions. but alas everyone escalates their weaponry in order to create a deturant against those that are already highly sophisticated and have shown their true thirst for everything that isn't theirs.

you deserve what you seek

pre 12 godina

Let's not get into a frenzy, there will be no war. The US does not have the guts to face Iran. The latter is a formidable opponent. Personally, I would love to see this go down. I believe that if you take out the US and Israel from the equation, you have world peace. These are the only two countries in the world that have been an obstacle to peace. Go for it Iran!!!!
(ivan, 3 January 2012 19:43)

And you believe with the US and Israel out of the way, Iran is going ot live in peace and harmony beside their Orthodox brothers. Its a shame a whole world would have to be damned for you to get a glimpse at what you wish for.

sj

pre 12 godina

Personally I’d love to the US, Israel and anyone else attack Iran and see how they go. The problem is Israel is so full of its own BS that it lives on another planet – it will attack but big brother has to come to the rescue.
The world has changed a lot since the days of the 1990s. The US now has a debt that is well in excess of its GDP and it could not even in their wildest dreams prosecute a war for very long otherwise it would go bankrupt. As far as China getting involved, well they can always pull out their $800 billion and watch the US disappear down the rabbit hole forever.
Since the Iraq and Afghanistan debacle the US is not in any position to carry out a long-term war plus Iran can close the Persian Gulf complete with the US sixth fleet in dry dock in Bahrain. Iran can destroy all the oils fields in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and even with the large reserves held by the US these will not be enough to keep it going for very long without rationing and we all know how the Americans are all used to rationing of petrol. This is called cutting your nose off to spit your face.
Any rational person would ask why is the US doing this? Is it for the benefit of its citizens?
It not for the benefit of its citizens except a few – the ones who have already greatly benefitted form the Iraq war such as Halliburton et al. The US has now reached a point where its politicians have been bought lock stock and barrel and they represent only the corporations and no one else.
There are rumors going around that the US has a list of overseas bases it has to close just to keep its head above water and if I was an Albanian I’d be very worried because it is also rumored that Camp Bondsteel is one of those on the list. But if it’s not on this list it’s definitely on the next – happy new year.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

To the signature - ben - !.

What do you think how long will be needed for Italy or Spain or Holland or Sweden to develop that technology?? given them 2 months and they are ready...

Comment -

Sweden could assemble a Nuce in a couple of Hours,
already in the 50ties,
if a threath from the former Sovjet union would occur.

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.

Arn.Sweden.

pre 12 godina

Mr ben - use your head - I quote -

They would have been used in 155mm canons.

Arn.Sweden.
(Arn.Sweden., 4 January 2012 11:59)

those canons can shoot just over 20km meaning you would get the radiation back. so not very smart.

Comment -

- Against the wind - very clever.

They would have been used at the Seashores.

Why do you think Nuces was developed to be used in 155mm canons at all ?
for the purpose of getting the Radiation back ?.

By Mr Ben.

Arn.Sweden.