Putin “still has majority support” in Russia

Bganon, "welcome back" from Moscow by the way Im sure you and your Otpor™ pals had a great time, trying to revive the good old days but to no avail apparently, under your rock it might be a permanent 90´s and NED still care for your funds,but Out here and especially in Russia, it´s not.

Do your math, 50.000 out of 12.000.000 citizens in Moscow is not even a p*ss in the ocean, rather the expected numbers of the same upper-middle/middle class on NEDs and Freedom house payroll you can see rally on US demand in the fashionable suburbs of Caracas,Veneuela, among the wealthy Miami Cubans or most recently in Theheran.Only diffrence is it took more time to buy them off. Maybe some thirsty fellows as well standing with a placate for a free night at the pub (yes, as in Belgrade where it all started, there has been such cases reported here to).

Get over it Bganon, Russia will continue to prosper and form it´s own non-anglo-american non-IMF "reformed"-neo-liberal economy definition of democracy to the benefit of the rest of the free world.

(bganon, 26 December 2011 01:43)


When one watches those manufactured videos-similar to those videos depicting Bin Ladden- when one sees palm tree lining streets in Moscow in December 2011 with Greek protesters hurling stones against the Russian police –only for Fox news to admit few days later to admit the made a mistake –one knows instinctively there is an agenda on Russia.

The West will do anything in its power for a pliable regime installed in Moscow, to allow the banksters access, to allow Western Companies access. But Putin knows the protests in his country are Western instigated and founded by US taxpayers Money and this is why he directly accused Hillary Clinton and the US of meddling with the Russian internal affairs.

You seem to confuse the people with Facebook and Twitter accounts with the majority of the Russian population.They voted for strong leaders in Putin’s party and the Communists which could easily form the next government in the next few years.

I have never said that Putin is a divine leader but as I said before one has to put things in perspective and compare the Russia of 1999 and the Russia of 2011.Even you can see the difference.

I am glad to see you expressing your opinion on the Russian elections and i wished you were as forthcoming on articles exposing the slaughter of the Iraqi,Afgani and Libyan people.

PM Vladimir Putin still has support of the majority in Russia, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told AFP Sunday after the biggest opposition protest yet against him.

B92

When the West tried to blackmail Russia during the South Ossetia crisis, it backfired spectacularly and in Ukraine the orange government imploded
with some of its architects languishing in prison.

The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London.

He may say it - it is his job to argue for Putin.

That does not mean that it is true!

What is definitely true is that the electoral system is not trusted and there has been a massive suppression of journalistic freedoms.
(Bob, 26 December 2011 05:11)

What is your job Bob?To advertise your pseudo-democratic credentials when the circumstances arise?Where was your comment when your country commited genocides in Iraq,Afnanistan,Pakistan and Libya?Where were you when the occupy movement was violently removed from their positions?What was your comment on Bill S1867 that allows the US military to detain US citizens without trial?

What was your comment when G W Bush stole the election in Florida in 2004? What was your comment on the fact the US is a two party system pseudo-democracy control by the corporatists as opposed to Russia's seven parties that took part in the last elections?

What was your comment on FREE JOURNALISM in US and UK when it's an established fact that one man Rupert (Hacker) Murdoch not only controls the media but decides which party is elected in government?

I can go on and on but until you have the decency to deal with the above points you have no legitimacy to criticise Russia for lack of democracy.

My point on Fox or Sky news is that if you look at their daily viewing this is running at millions and this is how people get a distorted view of various situations.Media is a powerful weapon in the hands of people with set agendas and Murdoch is the mouthpiece of the neocons in US.

You seem to judge China and Russia from the Western neo-liberal point of view which encompasses all the pseudo-human rights edifice but not from the point of view of the ordinary Chinese and Russians who fight for survival.

I am not saying that all Russians are satisfied with Putin and this as you rightly point out is reflected on his fall of support in the recent elections.This could also be due to the fact that a lot of Russians would like to see Putin taking a harder line against the West on various issues-Libya was the recent example.

I am not overplaying the foreign factors at all.Agence France-Presse (AFP)has recently claimed that NGOs such as US NED-funded Golos which regularly features columns by the jailed crooked oligarch Khodorkovsky had claimed well in advance of the Russian elections that the will be rigged.How did they know? They didn't,they were just trying to undermine the legitimacy of the elections.

Those NGOS are not relying on the actual evidence and their tactics are concentrated in manipulating public opinion and creating chaos.A good look at the events in Middle East will certify into that.

"PM Vladimir Putin still has support of the majority in Russia, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told AFP Sunday after the biggest opposition protest yet against him."

This might be true, but still it's not a reason to tolerate those severe election manipulations.

Or the honest Greek government!
BTW, where do you live ?
(metrod, 25 December 2011 16:55)

I have never said the Greek governments were honest but at least they are not involved in human and drugs trafficking like the Governments in Albania and Kosovo.

My opinions have nothing to do with where I live.You'll be surprised to know that I have lived in various parts of the World ranging from Asia to Western Europe and Greece but I have never pretended that I am anything else but Greek.

"The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London.
Leonidas"

Or the honest Greek government!
BTW, where do you live ?

Putin brought stability to Russia and stopped the rape of the country by western corporates.
(Leonidas, 25 December 2011 20:53

This is at least what you and your buddies in Russia want us and everybody else to believe. The truth is that this kind of statements 100% derive from the hate against the West. Yes, the West could not rape anymore the Russian economy (if you can call it like this). You need to be Russian to do this and this what continued to happen and still goes on. In Russia there are few very large corporations with an impressive turnover (and terrible efficiency), but that's it. There is no market for medium sized companies (backbone of all developed countries), even though there are very good products, such as produced in the Republic of Tatarstan. People in Russia with really good ideas simply leave Russia and become rich in the US, Israel, UK or else where. The system Putin just created (and preserved) a Kraken called rampant corruption. There is no security in Russia at all. Today you can be the hero of Russia and tomorrow you are in jail for being allegedly "Anti-Russian". Or vise versa, like the Kadyrow clan, which massacrated 10 000s of ethnic Russians.

And spare your breath about the 100 000 people on the streets. I'm not really mentioning them, but - like I said - the uncounted who want change but don't want to risk their lives and therefore simply leave Russia once and for all. Russia's demography is changing like no other country in the world. This is the real problem and the one who can change this, does not want to change it, Putin. Because he would have to confront his oligarchen buddies and his own cleptocratic system. Not even "God" Putin dares to touch it. It would not only mean the end of the system but also his own end. He is clever enough to recognize that and keeps things like they are.

yes because his opposition is deeply divided..but his popularity is far from it used to be...

PUTIN brought Russia from worst Yeltsin era without bullet being fired. Russia is still developing country-very rich. It is good to have different perspective but in peaceful manner. I am sure that there are many who wanted Russia in civil war then and now. Good example is Middle East and wars they are inn now, created by their so called "friends". Look how long it took Western countries to "have" democracy, but they want others to democratize over night.

And if it's not the majority, 'United Russia' still can manipulate the elections until Russia is 'united' :)
(J.Oker, 25 December 2011 19:41)

The funny thing is those who complain about election irregularities (pseudo-liberals) did very badly in the recent elections whereas the opposition communists didn't make a case of it at all.

bganon, 27 December 2011 02:27)

Your insistence about the so-called"concerns" of ordinary citizens baffles me.What are they? Every single independent statistic on Russia's GDP,living standards,life expectancy shows continued improvements since 1999.Unemployment rates dropped to 6.4% in October 2011.

Of course there areas that things will have to be improved and the legal system is the first area that comes in mind.Maybe more redistributionist policies could help to creates a more just society.

What does make you think that Putin is ideologically to the right of US neocons? Unlike the Nazi policies of the neocons all over the world I don't recall Putin either attacking or threatening othercountries.Instead one could see that Russia has fully engaged with the UN on every single world issue since Putin came into power.

I am not of the view that Putin should go on and on clinging into power but I can't see a viable alternative at present.

So what you are saying is that if Russia are to be exploited than at least by a Russian. Well, if that is the aim then mission completed. However, the majority which can leave Russia simply does and avoids going to those demonstrations. The demographic catastrophe has very simple reasons and above all of those reasons sits Putin.
(Berk., 25 December 2011 19:08)

Russia is not exploited by Putin.Russian companies are not his private domain and 30000 demonstrators are hardly an indication of Russians being dissatisfied with Putin but rather foreign induced.What the West wanted was for Russia to continue to be the wild west and open up all its resources for exploitation by western companies.Putin brought stability to Russia and stopped the rape of the country by western corporates.

The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London.
(Leonidas, 25 December 2011 15:58)

I am not really sure what kind of benefits would bring a true democracy in Russia for political spin doctors in places you did mention. Putin is THE Man these crooks can deal with; would be the majority of Russians asked - what they want would be far worse for the crooks. Putin is a sell-out, just a much more clever sell-out than Berisha Tadiqi.

Leonidas this same old story of a divine leader resisting western dogma and for that reason we should support him line is getting tedious.

Now I wonder if we took ourselves back 70 years or so how many people would express opinions like yours. Think about it, the biggest murderers and dominators upto that period was the UK with their empire, the French with their empire, Dutch with their previous empire. Now granted the Kaiser certainly went too far, but if you compare German crimes, measured against the British and French alone we can see the greater evil.

Besides, the Germans have been punished again and again, they have had territory taken away from them, made to pay financially until the pips squeak. Adolf Hitler was democratically elected by the German people, now I'm not saying that he's a democrat, but you can understand his position - he is just resisting domination of the west etc etc etc.

Forget that we know what Adolf did and forget about Greek animosity towards Germans, isn't it true that other things being equal that you (and others) would not condemn Adolf Hitler, even if Germans protested against him? Of course I'm sure you would oppose him, but at what stage? As a world leader at the time would you have been an appeaser? Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not calling you (or Putin) a nazi, its a question of wanting to see the world a certain way. You don't condemn somebody who might be bad for a country / other countries, because you first estimate that other countries are more evil.

What I can never understand is this viewpoint that always looks from the outside, that adopts a viewpoint based on that previous bias and not on the current evidence.

One cannot take this outside viewpoint. Instead one should look at what the leader in question is doing. In the case of Putin and Russia's economic progress I think there is more than a sense of good fotune going on there. Certainly think that Russia's economic growth would be even higher had he not concentrated wealth to the hands of a favoured few oligarchs. I think it fortunate that Putin has presided over Russia during the oil boom and that Putin has even benefitted from Yeltsin's reforms that the drunkard never did. Gorbachev was another case entirely having presided over the brek up of the Soviet Union. His place in history was never to continue long after that.

In turn I think that what we are seeing here is the beginning of the end of the Putin era. I don't think that the Russian people will stand for a(nother) lifetime President / Leader. I don't think they like his cringeworthy soviet era attempts to look brave, treating the Russian people like they are a bunch of peasants from the age of the Cold War.

No, I don't think that Putin will leave the stage anytime soon. What has simply happened is that Russia has put Putin on notice. He cannot take their support for granted any longer. I hope that this kick up the backside will promopt him to continue reforms and to cease communist era propoganda. At the same time he deserves a little bit of credit, although he shows himself to enjoy cult of personality, he is not a tyrant.

Leonidas

Nothing you say in your rant against me, or your suggested cricism of western journalism, government etc., does anything to actually undermine my point. All it does is confirm your anti-western predudices. Putin and Russia will not be the magic alternative you dream of .... but I guess that hope is what keeps you going.
(Bob, 27 December 2011 05:55)

Your lack of candour says more about you than it says about me.

The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London.
(Leonidas, 25 December 2011 15:58)

So what you are saying is that if Russia are to be exploited than at least by a Russian. Well, if that is the aim then mission completed. However, the majority which can leave Russia simply does and avoids going to those demonstrations. The demographic catastrophe has very simple reasons and above all of those reasons sits Putin.

I am not really sure what kind of benefits would bring a true democracy in Russia for political spin doctors in places you did mention. Putin is THE Man these crooks can deal with; would be the majority of Russians asked - what they want would be far worse for the crooks. Putin is a sell-out, just a much more clever sell-out than Berisha Tadiqi.
(Ataman, 25 December 2011 18:18)

There is no such a thing as a true Democracy and I am not saying that Putin is a true democrat. What I am saying is you have to put things into perspective and compare how things were under Yeltsin and how things are today.

Gorbachev and Yeltsin are not condemned in the Western press for their incompetence.They ailed to reform the Soviet Union into something better. Instead they sent it to the dogs of the Mafia and the beast of all out unregulated capitalism.

Leonidas, thats exactly my point. Instead of putting yourself in the shoes of the average Russian, you make reference to Fox news. Who cares what my 'enemy' thinks? Should we not do whats good for 'us', regardless?

As you probably know China is the new bogeyman in the US these days. The power elites in the US are upset that they are losing the economic war against China and are more than happy to let the public believe that China is the evil empire and that 'der tik our jerbs' as South Park would point out.

Does that automatically make China a 'good guy'. Of course not. Again who cares what the US thinks. What is important is that the Chinese government is the best government it can be for its citizens.

The protests in Russia are western instigated? I disagree. Certainly there is behind the scenes support, but instigation suggests that no Russians are disatisfied with Putins. Thats a complete nonsense.

In November when Putin tried to hold a communistic style speech at an MMA event he was boed. Was that instigated by foreigners? Was the vast drop in support of Putin in the recent elections due to foreign elements? You are overplaying foreign factors, as you quite often do.

I see the troll wtf, P.Rankster et al has returned assisted by his multiple votes trick. Oh no, deny it P.Rankster, you have never heard of wtf! You would never think so little of posters here to insult their intelligence by multiple voting!

It is funny though Mr Troll that you insist that those that attended the protest are upper middle class though, as some of those protesting appeared to support the communist party.

Now let me give you something to get over, most of the political opposition to Putin is from the Communists - who are not supporters of neo-liberalism, the US.. blah blah blah.

And I agree with you that Russia will continue to prosper. Where I differ with you is that you obviously support wealth in Russia being concentrated in the hands of the rich oligarchs and corrupt officials. I would like to see the wealth in Russia more fairly distributed and to see smaller Russian businessmen given a better chance.

"The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London."
(Leonidas, 25 December 2011 15:58)

And if it's not the majority, 'United Russia' still can manipulate the elections until Russia is 'united' :)

Leonidas you seem to think that because I disagree with your viewpoint I must automatically support the western neo-liberal viewpoint. Why is that?

Its like you are not reading my posts at all. I am talking about the concerns of average Russians. It is small businesses that must multiply and flourish in order for those ordinary Russians to prosper. Do you really think they are happy when they see money concentrated in the hands a pro-government billionaires?

And your interpretation of disatisfaction with Putin is not to do with the way that ordinary citizens have not seen much of the wealth increase in Russia? No, its because of national issues.

And the only Russian oligarch you seem to take issue with is one that Putin didn't like.

Leonidas that type of mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I have seen you comment on domestic US politics and you seem free to make judgements based on pretty sound logic. You seem in that case to be able to put yourself in the shoes of the average US citizen. You do not support or have understanding for US nationalistic elements. In the case of other countries you seem to think that doses of harder types of nationalism (of the type on the right of the Republican party) are a good thing.

wtf, P.Rankser et al, its better that you stick to the voting figures - you aren't capable of something of debate after all :)

Leonidas

Nothing you say in your rant against me, or your suggested cricism of western journalism, government etc., does anything to actually undermine my point. All it does is confirm your anti-western predudices. Putin and Russia will not be the magic alternative you dream of .... but I guess that hope is what keeps you going.

He may say it - it is his job to argue for Putin.

That does not mean that it is true!

What is definitely true is that the electoral system is not trusted and there has been a massive suppression of journalistic freedoms.

Leonidas I said that it seems that you seem to support a dose of right wing medicine in the case of non US countries, not Putin.

You interpreted Russian citizens disatisfaction in right wing (national) terms and advised Putin to be harder on the west. With relations with the west generally I think Putin is persuing the right course.

There is an increasing gap between the rich and poor and this gap is widening. The large majority of the new wealth that you spoke of is not 'trickling down' (awful words, awful economics) to the ordinary public. The statistics bear this out.

I can't see a viable alternative to Putin either and perhaps he is still the best man for the job. For me its not come to the stage where I believe he should go, it is possible for Putin to change course bearing in mind the poorer sections of the society. And you should'nt forget them either, poverty still exists in Russia.

Leonadies - candour? I think now that you are now getting back to abuse. Candidly, I stand by everything I said earlier.

It is good that Putin is being put under pressure. Questioning the respect he was previously given should help to remind him and another's that the democratic process is what gives representation to the people, and that corruption in all it's forms (not just electoral) is what steals freedoms from people.

The thing that defines democracy is not how people get elected, it is how they get replaced. Respect for the process that can remove them from power is what best defines a democratic politician. Respect for a free press, for the ballot box and for the will of the people.

Is this what defines Putin's politics?

I see the troll wtf, P.Rankster et al has returned assisted by his multiple votes trick. Oh no, deny it P.Rankster, you have never heard of wtf! You would never think so little of posters here to insult their intelligence by multiple voting!

It is funny though Mr Troll that you insist that those that attended the protest are upper middle class though, as some of those protesting appeared to support the communist party.

Now let me give you something to get over, most of the political opposition to Putin is from the Communists - who are not supporters of neo-liberalism, the US.. blah blah blah.

And I agree with you that Russia will continue to prosper. Where I differ with you is that you obviously support wealth in Russia being concentrated in the hands of the rich oligarchs and corrupt officials. I would like to see the wealth in Russia more fairly distributed and to see smaller Russian businessmen given a better chance.

Leonidas, thats exactly my point. Instead of putting yourself in the shoes of the average Russian, you make reference to Fox news. Who cares what my 'enemy' thinks? Should we not do whats good for 'us', regardless?

As you probably know China is the new bogeyman in the US these days. The power elites in the US are upset that they are losing the economic war against China and are more than happy to let the public believe that China is the evil empire and that 'der tik our jerbs' as South Park would point out.

Does that automatically make China a 'good guy'. Of course not. Again who cares what the US thinks. What is important is that the Chinese government is the best government it can be for its citizens.

The protests in Russia are western instigated? I disagree. Certainly there is behind the scenes support, but instigation suggests that no Russians are disatisfied with Putins. Thats a complete nonsense.

In November when Putin tried to hold a communistic style speech at an MMA event he was boed. Was that instigated by foreigners? Was the vast drop in support of Putin in the recent elections due to foreign elements? You are overplaying foreign factors, as you quite often do.

Putin brought stability to Russia and stopped the rape of the country by western corporates.
(Leonidas, 25 December 2011 20:53

This is at least what you and your buddies in Russia want us and everybody else to believe. The truth is that this kind of statements 100% derive from the hate against the West. Yes, the West could not rape anymore the Russian economy (if you can call it like this). You need to be Russian to do this and this what continued to happen and still goes on. In Russia there are few very large corporations with an impressive turnover (and terrible efficiency), but that's it. There is no market for medium sized companies (backbone of all developed countries), even though there are very good products, such as produced in the Republic of Tatarstan. People in Russia with really good ideas simply leave Russia and become rich in the US, Israel, UK or else where. The system Putin just created (and preserved) a Kraken called rampant corruption. There is no security in Russia at all. Today you can be the hero of Russia and tomorrow you are in jail for being allegedly "Anti-Russian". Or vise versa, like the Kadyrow clan, which massacrated 10 000s of ethnic Russians.

And spare your breath about the 100 000 people on the streets. I'm not really mentioning them, but - like I said - the uncounted who want change but don't want to risk their lives and therefore simply leave Russia once and for all. Russia's demography is changing like no other country in the world. This is the real problem and the one who can change this, does not want to change it, Putin. Because he would have to confront his oligarchen buddies and his own cleptocratic system. Not even "God" Putin dares to touch it. It would not only mean the end of the system but also his own end. He is clever enough to recognize that and keeps things like they are.

"The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London.
Leonidas"

Or the honest Greek government!
BTW, where do you live ?

yes because his opposition is deeply divided..but his popularity is far from it used to be...

"PM Vladimir Putin still has support of the majority in Russia, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told AFP Sunday after the biggest opposition protest yet against him."

This might be true, but still it's not a reason to tolerate those severe election manipulations.

PM Vladimir Putin still has support of the majority in Russia, his spokesman Dmitry Peskov told AFP Sunday after the biggest opposition protest yet against him.

B92

When the West tried to blackmail Russia during the South Ossetia crisis, it backfired spectacularly and in Ukraine the orange government imploded
with some of its architects languishing in prison.

The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London.

"The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London."
(Leonidas, 25 December 2011 15:58)

And if it's not the majority, 'United Russia' still can manipulate the elections until Russia is 'united' :)

The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London.
(Leonidas, 25 December 2011 15:58)

So what you are saying is that if Russia are to be exploited than at least by a Russian. Well, if that is the aim then mission completed. However, the majority which can leave Russia simply does and avoids going to those demonstrations. The demographic catastrophe has very simple reasons and above all of those reasons sits Putin.

He may say it - it is his job to argue for Putin.

That does not mean that it is true!

What is definitely true is that the electoral system is not trusted and there has been a massive suppression of journalistic freedoms.

Or the honest Greek government!
BTW, where do you live ?
(metrod, 25 December 2011 16:55)

I have never said the Greek governments were honest but at least they are not involved in human and drugs trafficking like the Governments in Albania and Kosovo.

My opinions have nothing to do with where I live.You'll be surprised to know that I have lived in various parts of the World ranging from Asia to Western Europe and Greece but I have never pretended that I am anything else but Greek.

The majority of Russians know that Putin is preferable to running things than the crooks of Wall Street,the IMF and the City of London.
(Leonidas, 25 December 2011 15:58)

I am not really sure what kind of benefits would bring a true democracy in Russia for political spin doctors in places you did mention. Putin is THE Man these crooks can deal with; would be the majority of Russians asked - what they want would be far worse for the crooks. Putin is a sell-out, just a much more clever sell-out than Berisha Tadiqi.

So what you are saying is that if Russia are to be exploited than at least by a Russian. Well, if that is the aim then mission completed. However, the majority which can leave Russia simply does and avoids going to those demonstrations. The demographic catastrophe has very simple reasons and above all of those reasons sits Putin.
(Berk., 25 December 2011 19:08)

Russia is not exploited by Putin.Russian companies are not his private domain and 30000 demonstrators are hardly an indication of Russians being dissatisfied with Putin but rather foreign induced.What the West wanted was for Russia to continue to be the wild west and open up all its resources for exploitation by western companies.Putin brought stability to Russia and stopped the rape of the country by western corporates.

Leonidas this same old story of a divine leader resisting western dogma and for that reason we should support him line is getting tedious.

Now I wonder if we took ourselves back 70 years or so how many people would express opinions like yours. Think about it, the biggest murderers and dominators upto that period was the UK with their empire, the French with their empire, Dutch with their previous empire. Now granted the Kaiser certainly went too far, but if you compare German crimes, measured against the British and French alone we can see the greater evil.

Besides, the Germans have been punished again and again, they have had territory taken away from them, made to pay financially until the pips squeak. Adolf Hitler was democratically elected by the German people, now I'm not saying that he's a democrat, but you can understand his position - he is just resisting domination of the west etc etc etc.

Forget that we know what Adolf did and forget about Greek animosity towards Germans, isn't it true that other things being equal that you (and others) would not condemn Adolf Hitler, even if Germans protested against him? Of course I'm sure you would oppose him, but at what stage? As a world leader at the time would you have been an appeaser? Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not calling you (or Putin) a nazi, its a question of wanting to see the world a certain way. You don't condemn somebody who might be bad for a country / other countries, because you first estimate that other countries are more evil.

What I can never understand is this viewpoint that always looks from the outside, that adopts a viewpoint based on that previous bias and not on the current evidence.

One cannot take this outside viewpoint. Instead one should look at what the leader in question is doing. In the case of Putin and Russia's economic progress I think there is more than a sense of good fotune going on there. Certainly think that Russia's economic growth would be even higher had he not concentrated wealth to the hands of a favoured few oligarchs. I think it fortunate that Putin has presided over Russia during the oil boom and that Putin has even benefitted from Yeltsin's reforms that the drunkard never did. Gorbachev was another case entirely having presided over the brek up of the Soviet Union. His place in history was never to continue long after that.

In turn I think that what we are seeing here is the beginning of the end of the Putin era. I don't think that the Russian people will stand for a(nother) lifetime President / Leader. I don't think they like his cringeworthy soviet era attempts to look brave, treating the Russian people like they are a bunch of peasants from the age of the Cold War.

No, I don't think that Putin will leave the stage anytime soon. What has simply happened is that Russia has put Putin on notice. He cannot take their support for granted any longer. I hope that this kick up the backside will promopt him to continue reforms and to cease communist era propoganda. At the same time he deserves a little bit of credit, although he shows himself to enjoy cult of personality, he is not a tyrant.

Leonidas

Nothing you say in your rant against me, or your suggested cricism of western journalism, government etc., does anything to actually undermine my point. All it does is confirm your anti-western predudices. Putin and Russia will not be the magic alternative you dream of .... but I guess that hope is what keeps you going.
(Bob, 27 December 2011 05:55)

Your lack of candour says more about you than it says about me.

(bganon, 26 December 2011 01:43)


When one watches those manufactured videos-similar to those videos depicting Bin Ladden- when one sees palm tree lining streets in Moscow in December 2011 with Greek protesters hurling stones against the Russian police –only for Fox news to admit few days later to admit the made a mistake –one knows instinctively there is an agenda on Russia.

The West will do anything in its power for a pliable regime installed in Moscow, to allow the banksters access, to allow Western Companies access. But Putin knows the protests in his country are Western instigated and founded by US taxpayers Money and this is why he directly accused Hillary Clinton and the US of meddling with the Russian internal affairs.

You seem to confuse the people with Facebook and Twitter accounts with the majority of the Russian population.They voted for strong leaders in Putin’s party and the Communists which could easily form the next government in the next few years.

I have never said that Putin is a divine leader but as I said before one has to put things in perspective and compare the Russia of 1999 and the Russia of 2011.Even you can see the difference.

I am glad to see you expressing your opinion on the Russian elections and i wished you were as forthcoming on articles exposing the slaughter of the Iraqi,Afgani and Libyan people.

He may say it - it is his job to argue for Putin.

That does not mean that it is true!

What is definitely true is that the electoral system is not trusted and there has been a massive suppression of journalistic freedoms.
(Bob, 26 December 2011 05:11)

What is your job Bob?To advertise your pseudo-democratic credentials when the circumstances arise?Where was your comment when your country commited genocides in Iraq,Afnanistan,Pakistan and Libya?Where were you when the occupy movement was violently removed from their positions?What was your comment on Bill S1867 that allows the US military to detain US citizens without trial?

What was your comment when G W Bush stole the election in Florida in 2004? What was your comment on the fact the US is a two party system pseudo-democracy control by the corporatists as opposed to Russia's seven parties that took part in the last elections?

What was your comment on FREE JOURNALISM in US and UK when it's an established fact that one man Rupert (Hacker) Murdoch not only controls the media but decides which party is elected in government?

I can go on and on but until you have the decency to deal with the above points you have no legitimacy to criticise Russia for lack of democracy.

bganon, 27 December 2011 02:27)

Your insistence about the so-called"concerns" of ordinary citizens baffles me.What are they? Every single independent statistic on Russia's GDP,living standards,life expectancy shows continued improvements since 1999.Unemployment rates dropped to 6.4% in October 2011.

Of course there areas that things will have to be improved and the legal system is the first area that comes in mind.Maybe more redistributionist policies could help to creates a more just society.

What does make you think that Putin is ideologically to the right of US neocons? Unlike the Nazi policies of the neocons all over the world I don't recall Putin either attacking or threatening othercountries.Instead one could see that Russia has fully engaged with the UN on every single world issue since Putin came into power.

I am not of the view that Putin should go on and on clinging into power but I can't see a viable alternative at present.

Leonidas I said that it seems that you seem to support a dose of right wing medicine in the case of non US countries, not Putin.

You interpreted Russian citizens disatisfaction in right wing (national) terms and advised Putin to be harder on the west. With relations with the west generally I think Putin is persuing the right course.

There is an increasing gap between the rich and poor and this gap is widening. The large majority of the new wealth that you spoke of is not 'trickling down' (awful words, awful economics) to the ordinary public. The statistics bear this out.

I can't see a viable alternative to Putin either and perhaps he is still the best man for the job. For me its not come to the stage where I believe he should go, it is possible for Putin to change course bearing in mind the poorer sections of the society. And you should'nt forget them either, poverty still exists in Russia.

And if it's not the majority, 'United Russia' still can manipulate the elections until Russia is 'united' :)
(J.Oker, 25 December 2011 19:41)

The funny thing is those who complain about election irregularities (pseudo-liberals) did very badly in the recent elections whereas the opposition communists didn't make a case of it at all.

Bganon, "welcome back" from Moscow by the way Im sure you and your Otpor™ pals had a great time, trying to revive the good old days but to no avail apparently, under your rock it might be a permanent 90´s and NED still care for your funds,but Out here and especially in Russia, it´s not.

Do your math, 50.000 out of 12.000.000 citizens in Moscow is not even a p*ss in the ocean, rather the expected numbers of the same upper-middle/middle class on NEDs and Freedom house payroll you can see rally on US demand in the fashionable suburbs of Caracas,Veneuela, among the wealthy Miami Cubans or most recently in Theheran.Only diffrence is it took more time to buy them off. Maybe some thirsty fellows as well standing with a placate for a free night at the pub (yes, as in Belgrade where it all started, there has been such cases reported here to).

Get over it Bganon, Russia will continue to prosper and form it´s own non-anglo-american non-IMF "reformed"-neo-liberal economy definition of democracy to the benefit of the rest of the free world.

My point on Fox or Sky news is that if you look at their daily viewing this is running at millions and this is how people get a distorted view of various situations.Media is a powerful weapon in the hands of people with set agendas and Murdoch is the mouthpiece of the neocons in US.

You seem to judge China and Russia from the Western neo-liberal point of view which encompasses all the pseudo-human rights edifice but not from the point of view of the ordinary Chinese and Russians who fight for survival.

I am not saying that all Russians are satisfied with Putin and this as you rightly point out is reflected on his fall of support in the recent elections.This could also be due to the fact that a lot of Russians would like to see Putin taking a harder line against the West on various issues-Libya was the recent example.

I am not overplaying the foreign factors at all.Agence France-Presse (AFP)has recently claimed that NGOs such as US NED-funded Golos which regularly features columns by the jailed crooked oligarch Khodorkovsky had claimed well in advance of the Russian elections that the will be rigged.How did they know? They didn't,they were just trying to undermine the legitimacy of the elections.

Those NGOS are not relying on the actual evidence and their tactics are concentrated in manipulating public opinion and creating chaos.A good look at the events in Middle East will certify into that.

Leonidas you seem to think that because I disagree with your viewpoint I must automatically support the western neo-liberal viewpoint. Why is that?

Its like you are not reading my posts at all. I am talking about the concerns of average Russians. It is small businesses that must multiply and flourish in order for those ordinary Russians to prosper. Do you really think they are happy when they see money concentrated in the hands a pro-government billionaires?

And your interpretation of disatisfaction with Putin is not to do with the way that ordinary citizens have not seen much of the wealth increase in Russia? No, its because of national issues.

And the only Russian oligarch you seem to take issue with is one that Putin didn't like.

Leonidas that type of mindset doesn't make any sense to me. I have seen you comment on domestic US politics and you seem free to make judgements based on pretty sound logic. You seem in that case to be able to put yourself in the shoes of the average US citizen. You do not support or have understanding for US nationalistic elements. In the case of other countries you seem to think that doses of harder types of nationalism (of the type on the right of the Republican party) are a good thing.

wtf, P.Rankser et al, its better that you stick to the voting figures - you aren't capable of something of debate after all :)

Leonidas

Nothing you say in your rant against me, or your suggested cricism of western journalism, government etc., does anything to actually undermine my point. All it does is confirm your anti-western predudices. Putin and Russia will not be the magic alternative you dream of .... but I guess that hope is what keeps you going.

PUTIN brought Russia from worst Yeltsin era without bullet being fired. Russia is still developing country-very rich. It is good to have different perspective but in peaceful manner. I am sure that there are many who wanted Russia in civil war then and now. Good example is Middle East and wars they are inn now, created by their so called "friends". Look how long it took Western countries to "have" democracy, but they want others to democratize over night.

I am not really sure what kind of benefits would bring a true democracy in Russia for political spin doctors in places you did mention. Putin is THE Man these crooks can deal with; would be the majority of Russians asked - what they want would be far worse for the crooks. Putin is a sell-out, just a much more clever sell-out than Berisha Tadiqi.
(Ataman, 25 December 2011 18:18)

There is no such a thing as a true Democracy and I am not saying that Putin is a true democrat. What I am saying is you have to put things into perspective and compare how things were under Yeltsin and how things are today.

Gorbachev and Yeltsin are not condemned in the Western press for their incompetence.They ailed to reform the Soviet Union into something better. Instead they sent it to the dogs of the Mafia and the beast of all out unregulated capitalism.

Leonadies - candour? I think now that you are now getting back to abuse. Candidly, I stand by everything I said earlier.

It is good that Putin is being put under pressure. Questioning the respect he was previously given should help to remind him and another's that the democratic process is what gives representation to the people, and that corruption in all it's forms (not just electoral) is what steals freedoms from people.

The thing that defines democracy is not how people get elected, it is how they get replaced. Respect for the process that can remove them from power is what best defines a democratic politician. Respect for a free press, for the ballot box and for the will of the people.

Is this what defines Putin's politics?