Germany: No going back on Greek bailout

"The Greeks have many good grounds to vote for the package," he told the German daily newspaper Die Welt. "But there's a lot of frustration and resignation in Greece. If the Greeks actually vote no, the consequences are unforeseeable."

B92

One is sick and tired of German politicians griping about having to fund bailout packages for Greece and the media stoking the fires of self-righteous nationalism. For a start, the German taxpayer has as yet not paid a single euro. The funds are guarantees, intended to reassure private investors that eurozone states will not default which come at a premium.Germany borrows those guarantees from the ECB at 2% and lends them to Greece,Ireland and Portugal at nearly 6%.Not bad business at all.

Secondly,the Greek bailout package was also a bailout of German – and French – banks, who had stacks of Greek bonds in their vaults, and of German investors, who held and hold all sorts of "financial products" in which high-yield (because risky) Greek, Irish, and Portuguese bonds play a large role.

Thirdly, Germany has done pretty well from the single currency with the costs of German reunification priced in the value of euro and Germany's exporters have also profited by encouraging and lending the Southern Europeans to buy their products.

Fourthly, it's not the Germans who are feeling the pain of the currency crisis. It's the Greeks and the Irish with their hands tied up and who are facing years of austerity to compensate for the profligate ways of the past.

Germany and France have known for well over a decade that Greece had financial problems, however it didn't stop them from allowing Greece to join the single currency,it also didn't stop Germany and France selling billions of Euros worth of armaments to Greece over the years and certainly didn't stop Goldman Sacks doing some extrememly creative financial accounting on behalf of Greece's corrupt politicians.

Greece should default and get out of the single currency.However unpleasant short-term consequences for the Greeks it's a hundred times better than being caged in a superstate in perpetuity presided over by a fourth Reich.

Gee Denis, I wonder how it is that these Greeks survived for centuries without EU assistance? It's going be armaggedon if they get no EU money!! Run for the hills!! Please...
All joking aside, the Greek people did not vote for Merkel, or Sarkozy, or some other unelected wanker in Brussels. They voted for Pappandreu. This is the dictatorial nature of the EU, where you have Germans trying to dictate how others shall live. If German and French banks are stupid enough to lend their money to these 'lazy' Mediterranen countries as you call them, then they are stupid and they should go bankrupt. It was their choice. That's called a free market.
If Greek people want retirement at 57, strong labour unions, long lunches, then that is their choice, and nobody else's choice. That's called democracy, which was invented in Greece, bye the way. The EU is going down. I can't wait for Merkel to try to push the same crap on Berlusconi, and then to see the reaction of the Italian public. It won't be pretty. The Titanic is sinking. Let's party!!

I hope Greece holds the referendum, and I hope they vote to get out of the German run EU. This is not a bailout of Greece that is being offered, it's a bailout of the French and German banks, while the Greeks would have to suffer even more austerity measures, after already cutting pretty much everything from their budget.
I say let the German and French banks sink, and give them the middle finger. They gambled with their taxpayers money, and they lost. Greek citizens should not have to take orders from someone in Berlin who is going to tell them when their retirement age is. Hitler couldn't do it militarily, and now it's not working economicaly either.
I'm amazed at the arrogance of some commentators. Let me remind these people that many of those same Euros that were pumped into Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland were spent on German cars and machinery. Where is your thank you for that?

if things were at all near fair in this fairytale land of europe, germany would have to pay greece wwii reparations. simply returning the gold that was taken from greece would easily cover all the bad bets that eurozone's best and brightest banksters (gamblers) made. the greek opposition has a valid point about the return of stolen gold and germany should acecpt that fact. they took it, did whatever the hell they wanted with it over the past 60 years, perhaps collecting mass amounts of wealth all the time, on someone elses stolen property...
greece should just walk away from the phoney debt.

I hope Greece holds the referendum, and I hope they vote to get out of the German run EU. This is not a bailout of Greece that is being offered, it's a bailout of the French and German banks, while the Greeks would have to suffer even more austerity measures, after already cutting pretty much everything from their budget.
I say let the German and French banks sink, and give them the middle finger. They gambled with their taxpayers money, and they lost. Greek citizens should not have to take orders from someone in Berlin who is going to tell them when their retirement age is. Hitler couldn't do it militarily, and now it's not working economicaly either.
I'm amazed at the arrogance of some commentators. Let me remind these people that many of those same Euros that were pumped into Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland were spent on German cars and machinery. Where is your thank you for that?
(Dragan, 3 November 2011 15:04)

So Greeks would not like to take orders from Germany and France but they of course would take their money in a heartbeat. In fact Germany has been bailing out Greece since 1821 from the time of Prince Otto.
Greeks would work till 57, take 5 weeks vacation, promote a "nanny state", pay no taxes etc, and take no responsibility for it. If this is not disgusting I don't know what is.

If Greece spent the money to buy German machinery they today would have been well suited to compete in the world markets, because German machinery is one of the best, and Greek productivity would have been up to the standards. But they spent the money in Olympic games, to glorify Greece status and the gamble failed.

If Greece says "no" they will literally have no money to pay wages and pensions, let alone other gov expenditures from army, to firefighters. It can't borrow anymore money from anyone, which means that the whole state will come to a crumble. Further Germany and France will only be stupid not to kick Greece out of EU.

What you seem to not udnerstand is that this is about saving Greece, not the western banks. Germany and France can bail out their banks just like US did, the question is what is Greece going to do without western money?Oh yes I know, they will protest and strike against it .... what a joke.

@ albs mcse don't worry about Greece you albanians like to mindle in everybody's affairs the eu Will be bankrupt soon. power to the people......

greece borrowed money it new it could not repay and had choices to not borrow
greeks get paid a bonus to show up for work (unions)
rich greeks dont support greece, all there money is ofshore (tax)
1% of greeks hold greek bonds (trust)
the world gave greece the benefit of the doubt

For a start, the German taxpayer has as yet not paid a single euro. The funds are guarantees"

Mighty ungrateful no? They are funds from German pensions and German bank deposits the ones you spent on stupid stuff. No guarantees, but money that will be gone.

30 years of free money from EU too and still ungrateful.

as denis said:
"Well here it goes same old mambo jumbo about WWII. First that was not Greece's gold to start with. Only in the 1830's Great Powers gave some 60 milion francs (over $120B in todays currency) to Greece to build it into anything close to a modern state"...
within that statement Greece is given gold. once something is given to you it is yours, as per the definition of the words. furthermore, extrapolating from your logic, nobody's gold is theirs. it was someones else who gave it to them, unless they actually found it in the pebbles of a river, or other places one might find gold.
normally things that are sold or given are no longer things that are owned by the previous owner, and are effectively owned by the new owner as per the agreement of giving or selling the goods in question.

furthermore you seem to think that the western nations of europe recieved nothing in return for this gold. perhaps those fabulous beaches on the north sea would have been a better place to summer than the agean. perhaps the western world's model of politics, namely the greatest political invention ever as per the western mouth pieces, is of some value. perhaps the centuries long effective border on, around or near greece that seperated the europeans from the ottomans, notice the bismarks, the francs and so forth all enjoyed relative peace on their land while the peasants of the balkans fought to keep europe safe.
there are many many ways that the value of a nation is calculated.
furthermore to all of this air fairy stuff, it was the eurozone banks, chalked full of the best and brightest banking minds throughout the lands of europe that saw it fir to offer lower than reasonable loans, en masse to nations such as greece, italy, spain, portugal, and ireland. these discount bargain bin loans were very bad decisions by the so-called best. this class of the best, after realizing that they made the mistakes are now punishing others without bringing the lash upon their own backs. it would be reasonable to accept that greece and the others pay their debts back iff (if and only if) the experts take on similar levels of responsibility.
consider the simplified example of you lending me money. say i have gainful employment and am making a good amount of money. i need some extra money to purchase something large. you would wisely consider my financial portfolio before determing how much i can borrow and what the appropriate pay-back schedule is. this is how it should go. now consider that i have lost my job, and have been without one for 2 years now, i have very little if any liquid savings and my assests are limited. if you loan me money to purchase something that is out of my means, even with the loan, and expect me to pay back at a vigourous schedule i wonder how much of that decision is your own fault -- if i was lending money to a broke client i would assume all failures of that client to pay back said loan would weigh on my shoulders as well as the clients as it is i who claim to be the lender/expert and i should have taken all the steps to ensure my due-diligence in the matter.

again it was and is greece's gold. it was given to them
and the loans that were poorly handed out should weigh partially on the lender's shoulders and not just the reciever of the loan.

I didn't know that the " referendum " is the new blackmail.

if things were at all near fair in this fairytale land of europe, germany would have to pay greece wwii reparations. simply returning the gold that was taken from greece would easily cover all the bad bets that eurozone's best and brightest banksters (gamblers) made. the greek opposition has a valid point about the return of stolen gold and germany should acecpt that fact. they took it, did whatever the hell they wanted with it over the past 60 years, perhaps collecting mass amounts of wealth all the time, on someone elses stolen property...
greece should just walk away from the phoney debt.
(tis all about the gold, 3 November 2011 19:38)

Well here it goes same old mambo jumbo about WWII. First that was not Greece's gold to start with. Only in the 1830's Great Powers gave some 60 milion francs (over $120B in todays currency) to Greece to build it into anything close to a modern state. They even sent Prince Otto to rule Greece
After that again England, Russia and France poured billions to Greece to keep it up to date. Greece suffered less then many other nations in WWII but they are the ones who b**** the most. After WWII Greece also received $billions from Marshall plan, and yet it still blows the same old hole of the same old pipe of WWII....how disgusting.
Further they sheltered Greece by including it in NATO, otherwise now it would have been a Turkish province Greece is a big nothing without the west pampering them and bailing them out. Their roads, thier army, their tourism, hospitals, .... their well being is all sponsored and paid for by the west.

Funny part how pervertly this parasitic failure of Greece is twisted to accuse the others who are actually helping it survive. I actually hope the agreement doesnt go through, so they can suffer the fruits of their arrogance and lazyness.

I hope Greece holds the referendum, and I hope they vote to get out of the German run EU. This is not a bailout of Greece that is being offered, it's a bailout of the French and German banks, while the Greeks would have to suffer even more austerity measures, after already cutting pretty much everything from their budget.
I say let the German and French banks sink, and give them the middle finger. They gambled with their taxpayers money, and they lost. Greek citizens should not have to take orders from someone in Berlin who is going to tell them when their retirement age is. Hitler couldn't do it militarily, and now it's not working economicaly either.
I'm amazed at the arrogance of some commentators. Let me remind these people that many of those same Euros that were pumped into Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland were spent on German cars and machinery. Where is your thank you for that?
(Dragan, 3 November 2011 15:04)

So Greeks would not like to take orders from Germany and France but they of course would take their money in a heartbeat. In fact Germany has been bailing out Greece since 1821 from the time of Prince Otto.
Greeks would work till 57, take 5 weeks vacation, promote a "nanny state", pay no taxes etc, and take no responsibility for it. If this is not disgusting I don't know what is.

If Greece spent the money to buy German machinery they today would have been well suited to compete in the world markets, because German machinery is one of the best, and Greek productivity would have been up to the standards. But they spent the money in Olympic games, to glorify Greece status and the gamble failed.

If Greece says "no" they will literally have no money to pay wages and pensions, let alone other gov expenditures from army, to firefighters. It can't borrow anymore money from anyone, which means that the whole state will come to a crumble. Further Germany and France will only be stupid not to kick Greece out of EU.

What you seem to not udnerstand is that this is about saving Greece, not the western banks. Germany and France can bail out their banks just like US did, the question is what is Greece going to do without western money?Oh yes I know, they will protest and strike against it .... what a joke.

"The Greeks have many good grounds to vote for the package," he told the German daily newspaper Die Welt. "But there's a lot of frustration and resignation in Greece. If the Greeks actually vote no, the consequences are unforeseeable."

B92

One is sick and tired of German politicians griping about having to fund bailout packages for Greece and the media stoking the fires of self-righteous nationalism. For a start, the German taxpayer has as yet not paid a single euro. The funds are guarantees, intended to reassure private investors that eurozone states will not default which come at a premium.Germany borrows those guarantees from the ECB at 2% and lends them to Greece,Ireland and Portugal at nearly 6%.Not bad business at all.

Secondly,the Greek bailout package was also a bailout of German – and French – banks, who had stacks of Greek bonds in their vaults, and of German investors, who held and hold all sorts of "financial products" in which high-yield (because risky) Greek, Irish, and Portuguese bonds play a large role.

Thirdly, Germany has done pretty well from the single currency with the costs of German reunification priced in the value of euro and Germany's exporters have also profited by encouraging and lending the Southern Europeans to buy their products.

Fourthly, it's not the Germans who are feeling the pain of the currency crisis. It's the Greeks and the Irish with their hands tied up and who are facing years of austerity to compensate for the profligate ways of the past.

Germany and France have known for well over a decade that Greece had financial problems, however it didn't stop them from allowing Greece to join the single currency,it also didn't stop Germany and France selling billions of Euros worth of armaments to Greece over the years and certainly didn't stop Goldman Sacks doing some extrememly creative financial accounting on behalf of Greece's corrupt politicians.

Greece should default and get out of the single currency.However unpleasant short-term consequences for the Greeks it's a hundred times better than being caged in a superstate in perpetuity presided over by a fourth Reich.

greece borrowed money it new it could not repay and had choices to not borrow
greeks get paid a bonus to show up for work (unions)
rich greeks dont support greece, all there money is ofshore (tax)
1% of greeks hold greek bonds (trust)
the world gave greece the benefit of the doubt

I didn't know that the " referendum " is the new blackmail.

@ albs mcse don't worry about Greece you albanians like to mindle in everybody's affairs the eu Will be bankrupt soon. power to the people......

if things were at all near fair in this fairytale land of europe, germany would have to pay greece wwii reparations. simply returning the gold that was taken from greece would easily cover all the bad bets that eurozone's best and brightest banksters (gamblers) made. the greek opposition has a valid point about the return of stolen gold and germany should acecpt that fact. they took it, did whatever the hell they wanted with it over the past 60 years, perhaps collecting mass amounts of wealth all the time, on someone elses stolen property...
greece should just walk away from the phoney debt.
(tis all about the gold, 3 November 2011 19:38)

Well here it goes same old mambo jumbo about WWII. First that was not Greece's gold to start with. Only in the 1830's Great Powers gave some 60 milion francs (over $120B in todays currency) to Greece to build it into anything close to a modern state. They even sent Prince Otto to rule Greece
After that again England, Russia and France poured billions to Greece to keep it up to date. Greece suffered less then many other nations in WWII but they are the ones who b**** the most. After WWII Greece also received $billions from Marshall plan, and yet it still blows the same old hole of the same old pipe of WWII....how disgusting.
Further they sheltered Greece by including it in NATO, otherwise now it would have been a Turkish province Greece is a big nothing without the west pampering them and bailing them out. Their roads, thier army, their tourism, hospitals, .... their well being is all sponsored and paid for by the west.

Funny part how pervertly this parasitic failure of Greece is twisted to accuse the others who are actually helping it survive. I actually hope the agreement doesnt go through, so they can suffer the fruits of their arrogance and lazyness.

Gee Denis, I wonder how it is that these Greeks survived for centuries without EU assistance? It's going be armaggedon if they get no EU money!! Run for the hills!! Please...
All joking aside, the Greek people did not vote for Merkel, or Sarkozy, or some other unelected wanker in Brussels. They voted for Pappandreu. This is the dictatorial nature of the EU, where you have Germans trying to dictate how others shall live. If German and French banks are stupid enough to lend their money to these 'lazy' Mediterranen countries as you call them, then they are stupid and they should go bankrupt. It was their choice. That's called a free market.
If Greek people want retirement at 57, strong labour unions, long lunches, then that is their choice, and nobody else's choice. That's called democracy, which was invented in Greece, bye the way. The EU is going down. I can't wait for Merkel to try to push the same crap on Berlusconi, and then to see the reaction of the Italian public. It won't be pretty. The Titanic is sinking. Let's party!!

if things were at all near fair in this fairytale land of europe, germany would have to pay greece wwii reparations. simply returning the gold that was taken from greece would easily cover all the bad bets that eurozone's best and brightest banksters (gamblers) made. the greek opposition has a valid point about the return of stolen gold and germany should acecpt that fact. they took it, did whatever the hell they wanted with it over the past 60 years, perhaps collecting mass amounts of wealth all the time, on someone elses stolen property...
greece should just walk away from the phoney debt.

I hope Greece holds the referendum, and I hope they vote to get out of the German run EU. This is not a bailout of Greece that is being offered, it's a bailout of the French and German banks, while the Greeks would have to suffer even more austerity measures, after already cutting pretty much everything from their budget.
I say let the German and French banks sink, and give them the middle finger. They gambled with their taxpayers money, and they lost. Greek citizens should not have to take orders from someone in Berlin who is going to tell them when their retirement age is. Hitler couldn't do it militarily, and now it's not working economicaly either.
I'm amazed at the arrogance of some commentators. Let me remind these people that many of those same Euros that were pumped into Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland were spent on German cars and machinery. Where is your thank you for that?

For a start, the German taxpayer has as yet not paid a single euro. The funds are guarantees"

Mighty ungrateful no? They are funds from German pensions and German bank deposits the ones you spent on stupid stuff. No guarantees, but money that will be gone.

30 years of free money from EU too and still ungrateful.

as denis said:
"Well here it goes same old mambo jumbo about WWII. First that was not Greece's gold to start with. Only in the 1830's Great Powers gave some 60 milion francs (over $120B in todays currency) to Greece to build it into anything close to a modern state"...
within that statement Greece is given gold. once something is given to you it is yours, as per the definition of the words. furthermore, extrapolating from your logic, nobody's gold is theirs. it was someones else who gave it to them, unless they actually found it in the pebbles of a river, or other places one might find gold.
normally things that are sold or given are no longer things that are owned by the previous owner, and are effectively owned by the new owner as per the agreement of giving or selling the goods in question.

furthermore you seem to think that the western nations of europe recieved nothing in return for this gold. perhaps those fabulous beaches on the north sea would have been a better place to summer than the agean. perhaps the western world's model of politics, namely the greatest political invention ever as per the western mouth pieces, is of some value. perhaps the centuries long effective border on, around or near greece that seperated the europeans from the ottomans, notice the bismarks, the francs and so forth all enjoyed relative peace on their land while the peasants of the balkans fought to keep europe safe.
there are many many ways that the value of a nation is calculated.
furthermore to all of this air fairy stuff, it was the eurozone banks, chalked full of the best and brightest banking minds throughout the lands of europe that saw it fir to offer lower than reasonable loans, en masse to nations such as greece, italy, spain, portugal, and ireland. these discount bargain bin loans were very bad decisions by the so-called best. this class of the best, after realizing that they made the mistakes are now punishing others without bringing the lash upon their own backs. it would be reasonable to accept that greece and the others pay their debts back iff (if and only if) the experts take on similar levels of responsibility.
consider the simplified example of you lending me money. say i have gainful employment and am making a good amount of money. i need some extra money to purchase something large. you would wisely consider my financial portfolio before determing how much i can borrow and what the appropriate pay-back schedule is. this is how it should go. now consider that i have lost my job, and have been without one for 2 years now, i have very little if any liquid savings and my assests are limited. if you loan me money to purchase something that is out of my means, even with the loan, and expect me to pay back at a vigourous schedule i wonder how much of that decision is your own fault -- if i was lending money to a broke client i would assume all failures of that client to pay back said loan would weigh on my shoulders as well as the clients as it is i who claim to be the lender/expert and i should have taken all the steps to ensure my due-diligence in the matter.

again it was and is greece's gold. it was given to them
and the loans that were poorly handed out should weigh partially on the lender's shoulders and not just the reciever of the loan.