Serbian and Romanian presidents meet

"In the meantime, the Romanian head of state visited Timočka Krajina in eastern Serbia in August 2009. "

He was there because Romania claims minority rights for Timok Romanians. The ones you call "vlachs". You can call them "vlachs", but then give them schools in "vlach" language and allow them to be represented in the parliament as "vlachs". We respect our serbian minority and that will not change in the future. But if Serbia ignores this issue you should not expect too much from your neighbours.

Serbia should respect the rights of the Romanian minority in the Timok Valley.

"We believe Serbia should become an EU member country and part of Euro-Atlantic integration as soon as possible," the Romanian president said after his meeting with President Boris Tadić.
--
Personally, I think Romania should start thinking about its future and integrate into the Euro-Asian structures. Romania is treated as a second-class country and abused by Euro-Atlantic powers. It would be nice to see this country regain its pride and face towards nations that respect it.

I personally respect & like Romania and hope that Serbia & Romania can remain friends just like they have throughout history.

I sincerely hope that Romanian minority in Serbia are treated well. I don't know of any mistreatment of the 'Vlachs' but I am not saying it happens and I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying I'd like to learn more..

Sorry but I haven't heard anything about Serbia abusing the rights of its romanian minority. Last time the EU commented on Serbias minority right issue it was positive. Therefore I don't understand what this is all about. Could it be that our romanian neighbours got their hopes up by the Kosovo UDI and want to grab a little piece of territory themselves?

Serbia should respect the rights of the Romanian minority in the Timok Valley.
(Mircea EU citizen, 1 November 2011 12:48)

sure thats fine,but have there been any major problems so far?

@Peggy and others:

The situation of Romanian-speaking population called "Vlachs" by Serbs is quite difficult to explain in a forum post. But I don't understand why you ask about proofs of persecution(?). Since when only those persecuted are allowed to demand legitimate rights (like usage of native language in Church)? Should the Romanians/Vlachs of Serbia be persecuted first, and only then they are supposed to demand attention to their rights? Or, if they do not demand openly such normal rights, then it would be OK for the Serbian state to keep quiet about the issue? I remember that nobody persecutes the Scots in UK, and still they gradually demanded rights for their people, so much that in 1997 they got their own Parliament... Is there a double standard in human rights, based on what part of Europe a certain people lives in?

I would like to point out that in Eastern Europe, the collapse of Communism did not mean, automatically, that each majority group started to respect the human rights of minorities, from the first minute of freedom. Certainly this was not the case of Romania, and for sure was not the case of ex-Iugoslavia or Serbia. Building a democratic society requires political will from the majority, plus time and dialogue. And that's exactly what Romania and Serbia are doing, through their presidents. Romania is not a perfect country, neither is Serbia. But things will move forward only if we discuss openly and fairly, as Mr. Tadic noticed.

As for the members of Romanian-speaking population living in Timoc Valley, they should be free to call themselves Romanians or Vlachs, whatever they like. If they consider themselves Romanians, they should have the status of national minority, as the Romanians in Voivodina have already. And Serbia should not try, in any way, to force them abandon their rights, because they want no separate country and they are loyal to the Serbian state. Also, any accusation of territorial claim from Romania towards Serbia is the ultimate nonsense! We do not have such suspicions towards Serbia, or Serbs living in Romania, therefore we hardly understand why Belgrade has a problem with the fact that Vlachs may want to be considered Romanians? Yes, we know that due to the Kosovo debacle, the national feelings of Serbs are quite sensitive, but how will help if Vlachs who consider themselves Romanians are kept without the right to conserve their identity and language, by refusing them the national minority status, as their brothers in Voivodina have?
So far, Romania has acted in a friendly, open and honest manner towards Serbia. This goes not only for politicians, but also for the Romanian media and the general public. I am one of the many Romanians who don't like president Basescu, but he was right: "those [Vlachs] who are of Romanian descent have the right to preserve their culture and language and this right should be respected". To me, it looks like a common-sense approach.

Last but not least, dear Westerners, please be more careful when you offer (as permanent reference) examples from "wonderful" countries like USA or Australia, whose history is full of abuses against indigenous populations (American Indians and Aboriginal Australians) or against large segments of their citizens (like African Americans in US), going up to second half of 20th century. You probably realize that we, the South-Eastern Europeans (or Balkan people, if you like) posting here, we are not some poor, uneducated peasants that need to be lectured about the "magnifique" past experience of Western powers. Speaking about peasants: while the serfdom was abolished by law in the Romanian Principalities of Wallachia (1746) and Moldavia (1749), and also in Serbia (1804), the British Parliament issued its Slavery Abolition Act only in 1833, and the "great" US of A terminated slavery only in 1865, by adopting the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution... And I am not even mentioning when Australian authorities started to recognize the human rights of Indigenous Australians!

We don`t want any inch of Serbian territory. The only thing we are asking for is that they get the same rights like other minorities in Serbia. Nothing more. They wold still be loyal citizens of Serbia and would have to respect the laws of their country. So we are not asking for something special.

"I can tell you one thing and that is that nobody gets their own language in Australia. Universities are in ONE LANGUAGE ONLY and that is English so you can speak whatever you like at home but you must use English when in public sector. Sure, there are interpreters but the official and only language of the country is English. Come here and claim your rights and then tell us that Australia is undemocratic and abuses it's minorities.
Try this in any other western country and see if you will be allowed to get a degree in any other language but the language of that country. Hey, go to America and study in Romanian and let's see how their universities treat their "minorities".
(Peggy, 1 November 2011 20:56)

Well, I would not deny that Australia is a democracy - at least, not nowadays Australia (to follow the steps of my fellow countryman Traian :)))
But in Romania, one may get a degree in Hungarian or German language(s), at the multicultural Babes-Bolyai University of Cluj, one of the main Transylvanian cities (and this is the second biggest University in Romania, after the one in Bucharest). And this is possible despite (or because) the fact that ethnic Hungarians are up to 5% of Romanian citizens, and Germans around (or less than) one percent. Also, in any municipality where a minority is making up more than 20% of the population, their language is used in public sector (administration, police, hospitals etc.). Of course, this is mainly the case of Hungarians living in two Transilvanian counties, Covasna and Harghita, were they are the vast majority.
I wonder, if Romania does that, and Australia does not, but Australia is a democracy (which is an undisputed fact), then how you would describe Romania - as a super-democracy - or uber-democracy, for German speakers :))))
You see, Ms. Australia, that's why I must agree with the above-mentioned Romanian colleague, Traian, that Westerners should take a break in lecturing us, simply because the West is not in the possession of the "absolute truth" or "the answer to all questions". At least, not when about OUR lands and people.

Last but not least: regarding our attitude towards the West - most of us we like the level of living (in terms of general development), but not necessary the values of the West. As Buddha said once, "there are many ways to reach Nirvana", and I personally think that the jury is still out on how good would be the Western approach in some places of Earth, like China or the Middle East countries.

Again to MikeC:
Be sure I am ROMANIAN, Serbs are just our neighbors. If you want to be respected, you need to respect others, ESPECIALLY Romanian minority from Serbia with the SAME CHRISTIANITY ORTHODOX FAITH-example: demolition of the Romanian Orthodox Church in Malainita, Timoc etc, etc, etc. Perhaps the former 130 Romanian gendarmes from KFOR in Kosovo must not interfere, when some albanians destroy Christian Orthodox churches -UNESCO monuments from Kosovo and Metohia??? But they save some churches and the civil population regarding with muslim albanians hordes bloodthirsty Christian.
Honor to the EU countries who have not recognized Kosovo muslim sting: CYPRUS, GREECE, ROMANIA, SLOVAKIA and SPAIN.

@Zoran:"Personally, I think Romania should start thinking about its future and integrate into the Euro-Asian structures. Romania is treated as a second-class country and abused by Euro-Atlantic powers. It would be nice to see this country regain its pride and face towards nations that respect it."

Well, ROMANIA is the seventh EU country as size and population, as well as one of the leading NATO members in Europe.Romania has troops in Afghanistan , Iraq, African countries etc. and together with Poland most troops in theaters of operations, except US,UK and France!!! In the near past 130 Romanian gendarmes from KFOR served in Kosovo and they save some churches and the civil population regarding with muslim albanians Christian(Orthodox churches -UNESCO monuments from Kosovo and Metohia).About the entry of Serbia in EU, that accession would normally be judged on the same terms of the eventual accession of Croatia in 2013-who needs the vote in 27 EU Parliaments as well as he favorable outcome in referendums in ALL 27 EU COUNTRIES!!!
Yes ZORAN, it is true EU decisions are taken mainly from Germany and France as well in NATO by US!!!You will see when you will be possible admitted like EU and NATO member.For example, in Romania new prices have increased by 300% since we entered the EU in 2007!!!We became a market for Western bad and expensive products and this will happen to you , too.I wish you all the best from Bucharest.

We became a market for Western bad and expensive products and this will happen to you , too.I wish you all the best from Bucharest.
(Romanian Warrior, 2 November 2011 08:38)
--
I don't think Serbia will ever join NATO (or Russia). Being neutral has served us better while we have plenty of friends in the unaligned movement. Personally, I don't think Serbia has any problems with Romania, perhaps some minor issues with minorities but I haven't heard of any. I consider Romania a good friend and I have visited the country and enjoyed it immensely. Unlike some Albanians here who disrespect your country, I can only recommend it and I have done so to many people in Serbia (internationals and locals).

The problem I noticed is that, as you mentioned, prices have skyrocketed, you are sending people to fight other peoples wars and you are disrespected by your "Western partners". As a Romanian described to me when I was there - during the communist times people had money but couldn't buy much. Now the shops are full but they don't have any money. Personally I believe that once the Euro-Asian structures develop, countries like Serbia and Romania can benefit from having both the money and affordability to prosper. We just have to open up to opportunities as they present themselves.

I also hope Romania considers the option be being neutral and not aligning herself with either Russia or NATO. That is a good way to stop the missiles pointing at your country. I know Romanians don't like Russia but you shouldn't really provoke unnecessary actions. It's not like they are occupying 15% of your territory.

Serbia should respect the rights of the Romanian minority in the Timok Valley.
(Mircea EU citizen, 1 November 2011 12:48)
=======================

Please explain how exactly is Serbia abusing the Romanian minority. It's one thing to make a sweeping accusation like this but another to actually put forward some facts.

If you want to know more about the problems of the Romanian minority in the Timok Valley of Serbia, read about the Romanian priest in Malajnica ( Malainita).

Zoran,

For Serbia there is no alternative to the EU.

Serbia should follow the example of Romania and join the EU as soon as possible.

Serbia is losing its sovereignty as the days before Russia signed the agreement with Serbia to the Russian military base in Nis which will never run away from there and Romania is now seeking the rights of Vlachs in Serbia ''so called new Vlachs minority in the Russian federation republic of Serbia''..... how absurd it or not ? This is the cost, in terms tha Serbia is paying the non-recognition of Kosovo...Romania condition that keeps Serbia side is that Serbia should recognize the new minority of Vlachs and its rights which is growing more and more every day in this country ... I would say that the wrong policy is destroing Serbia's severeignty without Kosovo.

Thank you !

Adrian, Serbia is a small country full of minorities. What do you suggest a country like that should do? Divide themselves into ten different micro countries and let everyone have their own language, police force, army and universities?
I can tell you one thing and that is that nobody gets their own language in Australia. Universities are in ONE LANGUAGE ONLY and that is English so you can speak whatever you like at home but you must use English when in public sector. Sure, there are interpreters but the official and only language of the country is English. Come here and claim your rights and then tell us that Australia is undemocratic and abuses it's minorities.
Try this in any other western country and see if you will be allowed to get a degree in any other language but the language of that country. Hey, go to America and study in Romanian and let's see how their universities treat their "minorities".

@MikeC “Could it be that our Romanian neighbors got their hopes up by the Kosovo UDI and want to grab a little piece of territory themselves?”
WHAT??? If you want to be respected, you need to respect others. ROMANIA is a model in EU for how WE treat minorities , Serbs including. Or do you think it's time to lose the last sincere friend in this area, WHO NEVER WANTED YOUR EARTH or from other ???Example:” Dark clouds of the Second World War gathered first over Romania, which was called Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina by the USSR on 28 June 1940. Romania was part of the Little Entente with Yugoslavia, Turkey and Czechoslovakia until 1938 - 1939, when Czechoslovakia disappeared from the map. In 1939, the division of Czechoslovakia, Romania was given the historical Maramures territory, but refused to take part in the rape. Similarly, the part of Banat from Serbia territory was given from GERMANY to ROMANIA, at the date on which Yugoslavia was invaded by the Germans in the spring of 1941. BUT MARSHAL ANTONESCU REFUSED, but he sent Hitler that if the Hungarian forces allied with Germany will enter in the Serbian Banat, the Romanians will come after them and drawing them fight them out. But before that, on 28 June 1940, when we received Soviet ultimatum, although we were allied with Yugoslavia and the Treaty provides that when Romania entered the war with another state and a third attack Romania, Yugoslavia is obliged to declare war like ally of ROMANIA at the third State. The inverse was true. Serbs have asked us not to jeopardize risking a war with the USSR, the only declared themselves ready to meet their commitments were Turks.”
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

"Who are you kidding, the Romanians were very anti semitic and supported Hitler.
(The Count of Kosova, 2 November 2011 06:31) "

REALLY???We ROMANIANS have built and Holocaust Memorial in Bucharest!!!!!, for jews and gypsies!!!!WHERE IS DISCRIMINATION against jews and gypsies in ROMANIA????This
is as well as the old adage who says: A REPEATED LIES risk of falling, for some, one Truth.Read historical documents, hypocritical albanian count of Kosova!Some Romanian territories was taken by force by Russia during WWII. This is why the Romanian Marshall Antonescu declared war to Russia in 1941 - to recover a Romanian territory. Read real history first, and then post. You learned history at the sovietic school of hodja, albanian count of kosovo .

BUT MARSHAL ANTONESCU REFUSED, but he sent Hitler that if the Hungarian forces allied with Germany will enter in the Serbian Banat, the Romanians will come after them and drawing them fight them out. But before that, on 28 June 1940, when we received Soviet ultimatum, although we were allied with Yugoslavia and the Treaty provides that when Romania entered the war with another state and a third attack Romania, Yugoslavia is obliged to declare war like ally of ROMANIA at the third State. The inverse was true. Serbs have asked us not to jeopardize risking a war with the USSR, the only declared themselves ready to meet their commitments were Turks.”
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
(Romanian Warrior, 1 November 2011 20:03)

Who are you kidding, the Romanians were very anti semitic and supported Hitler.

@ Peggy:
I wonder if you have fully read my previous comments: "in any [Romanian] municipality where a minority is making up more than 20% of the population, their language is used in public sector (administration, police, hospitals etc.)". There are three municipalities like this in Romania, at the border with Serbia. Also, for your information, based on official data issued by the Romanian and Serbian authorities (2002 censuses), in Serbia are living, roughly, 7 times more Romanians (or Vlachs considering themselves Romanians) than Serbs living in Romania. You may check the data on wikipedia.org. Sure, it is not a matter of numbers, but of principle, therefore we ask for nothing more that we give to others.

Also, FYI, all these efforts to accommodate minority rights in Central-Eastern Europe are the direct result of the Western governments pressures, immediately after the collapse of Communism. For Romania, as for other countries in the region, amending the national legislation and establishing provisions for the safekeeping of minorities' identity, language and culture were mandatory measures, in order to join Council of Europe, EU, NATO and OSCE (to name the most important international organizations interested in this topic).
Now, with all due respect, I will not consider your opinion as representative for the Western values and principles regarding the rights of minorities . However, it is funny to hear a Westerner saying what you say, after we and others in the region did our best (and mostly succeeded) in upgrading our laws and institutions in line with CoE/EU/OSCE recommendations. I remember how in 1992, while I was a young student at Bucharest University, they were two Swiss and one German MPs visiting our department, to explain how beautifully works the multicultural Western society in their countries. But I guess things are not so pretty anymore in either Switzerland or Germany, isn't?

PS 1: In my previous comment, I was not comparing Scotland with Romania, but the legitimate rights of Scottish population in UK with the rights of Romanian/Vlach population in Serbia. You don't need to twist or extract my sayings from the context, just for the sake of the argument. Maybe a better example would have been Catalonia - I spent a week in Barcelona recently, and I never heard once the word "Madrid". Now, this is nationalism! :)))

PS 2: It must be very interesting to be a citizen of a country where there is only one language and only one nation. I remember this was also Hitler's goal ("Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer"). I am not implying that your position is a Fascist one, but I would like to warn you that such black-and-white approach may be misleading. I quote you: “If you are a citizen of a particular country then you should accept that language as the only language because anything less is dividing people”. Are you sure? Then tens of countries in Europe and worldwide are on the brink of implosion from internal divisions! Also, keeping your native language or faith doesn’t mean that you are a “fifth column” member.
Maybe this is the case about Australia, or UK, or US, or other Western countries (maybe as an unfortunate outcome of 9/11). However, you may rest assured, when Romanians are emigrating in any of these, they do learn and speak the local language, because “when in Rome, you do as Romans do”. But this is the case for emigrants, not for historical ethnic minority groups.
Moreover, down here, in Balkans, we were so mixed by history that we have only one possibility: to consider each minority an asset, not a vulnerability for a country. We, Romanians, we consider ourselves lucky to have 16 minorities in our country, all of them enriching the culture and the society we all benefit from. We only hope that same is thought about ethnic Romanians living in other neighboring countries, especially in Serbia, the country&people we like the most from the region!

"Which of our values have you got a problem with? The main EU constitutional document (Lisbon Treaty) sets them out as "human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights".

Dear TC, it would be nice if these would really be the values governing the West. But I am afraid they're not.
Now, I make a distinction between common people and politicians, and I am sure many common Westerners like you, they really do believe that it is all about democracy and human rights. Unfortunately, simple Westerners are represented by Western politicians, and from what I've seen so far, the politicians believe only in money, or oil, or gas, or guns, or influence. For many of your leaders, this is all about. Such leaders embraced Ceausescu, Ghaddafi, Mubarak, Ben Ali and other dictators for decades; others, like Angela Merkel, they think only how to appease the Russians, for fear not to be charged more for gas imports. You know, Ceausescu was transported with the official carriage of the British Queen in 1978, when he visited London with full honors; Francois Mitterrand offered him a "de luxe" car as a gift. Why we should believe in the principles enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty if today, UK and France treat us as "second grade EU citizens"? Oh, excuse me, I think I get it: the EU and its principles (like freedom of movement for every body) were a good idea ONLY as long as millions of educated and hard-working Eastern Europeans would fill the jobs Westerners are fed-up with. And Kosovo was a good cause when the West needed to show it stays for justice, but somehow in the process, from "let's save the Albanians from Milosevic persecutions", it ended up in "let's make a new state in Europe, because we have too many Kosovo Albanian&Muslim refugees in our pretty countries and we need a place to dump them, and we have no time and no guts to impose a more balanced agreement between them and Serbs".

You may feel offended by my opinion, but we are affected on daily basis by the decisions made by your elected governments, therefore we cannot excuse their hypocrisy. And these are your leaders, therefore you are also responsible for their actions. So do not come in front of us like a knight in shinny armor, quoting from EU treaties, because (as an old saying goes) "we were not born yesterday".

I can tell you one thing and that is that nobody gets their own language in Australia. Universities are in ONE LANGUAGE ONLY and that is English so you can speak whatever you like at home but you must use English when in public sector.
(Peggy, 1 November 2011 20:56)

Dear Peggy, Australia is part of the evil West that supports the dismemberment of Serbia. So, I would not take Australia as an example of the correct way of doing things.

To Radu-Mihail P., of Romania,


Sorry, but there are two sides to this east/west discourse. As a westerner (and yes Peggy, that makes me from the "evil West") Come on, be a bit more discriminating. Which of our values have you got a problem with? The main EU constitutional document (Lisbon Treaty) sets them out as "human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights". I'd be the first to agree that these values are understood and implemented imperfectly, and in many different ways, but as values per se, which ones would you not subscribe to?

Dear Peggy, Australia is part of the evil West that supports the dismemberment of Serbia. So, I would not take Australia as an example of the correct way of doing things.
(icj1, 2 November 2011 02:10)
=======================

But you guys worship the west so why would you not try to mimic it?
You can't have it both ways. Either you adore the west and want the same conditions in Serbia or you don't.

"I remember that nobody persecutes the Scots in UK, and still they gradually demanded rights for their people, so much that in 1997 they got their own Parliament... Is there a double standard in human rights, based on what part of Europe a certain people lives in?"
=========================

Surely you are not comparing the Scottish in the UK and Romanians in Serbia.
Scotland is part of the UK while Romania is NOT a part of Serbia.
Huge difference.

@(Radu-Mihail P., of Romania,
Perhaps when you allow Serbian language to be accepted the same way as you allow others in Romania then you can ask for it in Serbia.
Until then, ask for your rights in the countries whose language you accept already.

Seriously, I think no country should allow another language to be accepted at the level some are in some countries in Europe.
Serbia already accepts Albanian.
If you are a citizen of a particular country then you should accept that language as the only language because anything less is dividing people.
One country, one language will do more to unite.
Everyone is free to speak whatever they like at home but the sense of belonging to a country should outstrip any allegiance to any foreign power.
I say the same for Serbs living anywhere else. Keep your language, religion and tradition but you cannot expect your host country to turn itself into fifty other countries just to make their minorities feel like they live some place else.

Serbia should respect the rights of the Romanian minority in the Timok Valley.

Sorry but I haven't heard anything about Serbia abusing the rights of its romanian minority. Last time the EU commented on Serbias minority right issue it was positive. Therefore I don't understand what this is all about. Could it be that our romanian neighbours got their hopes up by the Kosovo UDI and want to grab a little piece of territory themselves?

Serbia should respect the rights of the Romanian minority in the Timok Valley.
(Mircea EU citizen, 1 November 2011 12:48)

sure thats fine,but have there been any major problems so far?

Adrian, Serbia is a small country full of minorities. What do you suggest a country like that should do? Divide themselves into ten different micro countries and let everyone have their own language, police force, army and universities?
I can tell you one thing and that is that nobody gets their own language in Australia. Universities are in ONE LANGUAGE ONLY and that is English so you can speak whatever you like at home but you must use English when in public sector. Sure, there are interpreters but the official and only language of the country is English. Come here and claim your rights and then tell us that Australia is undemocratic and abuses it's minorities.
Try this in any other western country and see if you will be allowed to get a degree in any other language but the language of that country. Hey, go to America and study in Romanian and let's see how their universities treat their "minorities".

"In the meantime, the Romanian head of state visited Timočka Krajina in eastern Serbia in August 2009. "

He was there because Romania claims minority rights for Timok Romanians. The ones you call "vlachs". You can call them "vlachs", but then give them schools in "vlach" language and allow them to be represented in the parliament as "vlachs". We respect our serbian minority and that will not change in the future. But if Serbia ignores this issue you should not expect too much from your neighbours.

BUT MARSHAL ANTONESCU REFUSED, but he sent Hitler that if the Hungarian forces allied with Germany will enter in the Serbian Banat, the Romanians will come after them and drawing them fight them out. But before that, on 28 June 1940, when we received Soviet ultimatum, although we were allied with Yugoslavia and the Treaty provides that when Romania entered the war with another state and a third attack Romania, Yugoslavia is obliged to declare war like ally of ROMANIA at the third State. The inverse was true. Serbs have asked us not to jeopardize risking a war with the USSR, the only declared themselves ready to meet their commitments were Turks.”
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
(Romanian Warrior, 1 November 2011 20:03)

Who are you kidding, the Romanians were very anti semitic and supported Hitler.

I can tell you one thing and that is that nobody gets their own language in Australia. Universities are in ONE LANGUAGE ONLY and that is English so you can speak whatever you like at home but you must use English when in public sector.
(Peggy, 1 November 2011 20:56)

Dear Peggy, Australia is part of the evil West that supports the dismemberment of Serbia. So, I would not take Australia as an example of the correct way of doing things.

Dear Peggy, Australia is part of the evil West that supports the dismemberment of Serbia. So, I would not take Australia as an example of the correct way of doing things.
(icj1, 2 November 2011 02:10)
=======================

But you guys worship the west so why would you not try to mimic it?
You can't have it both ways. Either you adore the west and want the same conditions in Serbia or you don't.

Again to MikeC:
Be sure I am ROMANIAN, Serbs are just our neighbors. If you want to be respected, you need to respect others, ESPECIALLY Romanian minority from Serbia with the SAME CHRISTIANITY ORTHODOX FAITH-example: demolition of the Romanian Orthodox Church in Malainita, Timoc etc, etc, etc. Perhaps the former 130 Romanian gendarmes from KFOR in Kosovo must not interfere, when some albanians destroy Christian Orthodox churches -UNESCO monuments from Kosovo and Metohia??? But they save some churches and the civil population regarding with muslim albanians hordes bloodthirsty Christian.
Honor to the EU countries who have not recognized Kosovo muslim sting: CYPRUS, GREECE, ROMANIA, SLOVAKIA and SPAIN.

Serbia is losing its sovereignty as the days before Russia signed the agreement with Serbia to the Russian military base in Nis which will never run away from there and Romania is now seeking the rights of Vlachs in Serbia ''so called new Vlachs minority in the Russian federation republic of Serbia''..... how absurd it or not ? This is the cost, in terms tha Serbia is paying the non-recognition of Kosovo...Romania condition that keeps Serbia side is that Serbia should recognize the new minority of Vlachs and its rights which is growing more and more every day in this country ... I would say that the wrong policy is destroing Serbia's severeignty without Kosovo.

Thank you !

To Radu-Mihail P., of Romania,


Sorry, but there are two sides to this east/west discourse. As a westerner (and yes Peggy, that makes me from the "evil West") Come on, be a bit more discriminating. Which of our values have you got a problem with? The main EU constitutional document (Lisbon Treaty) sets them out as "human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights". I'd be the first to agree that these values are understood and implemented imperfectly, and in many different ways, but as values per se, which ones would you not subscribe to?

@MikeC “Could it be that our Romanian neighbors got their hopes up by the Kosovo UDI and want to grab a little piece of territory themselves?”
WHAT??? If you want to be respected, you need to respect others. ROMANIA is a model in EU for how WE treat minorities , Serbs including. Or do you think it's time to lose the last sincere friend in this area, WHO NEVER WANTED YOUR EARTH or from other ???Example:” Dark clouds of the Second World War gathered first over Romania, which was called Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina by the USSR on 28 June 1940. Romania was part of the Little Entente with Yugoslavia, Turkey and Czechoslovakia until 1938 - 1939, when Czechoslovakia disappeared from the map. In 1939, the division of Czechoslovakia, Romania was given the historical Maramures territory, but refused to take part in the rape. Similarly, the part of Banat from Serbia territory was given from GERMANY to ROMANIA, at the date on which Yugoslavia was invaded by the Germans in the spring of 1941. BUT MARSHAL ANTONESCU REFUSED, but he sent Hitler that if the Hungarian forces allied with Germany will enter in the Serbian Banat, the Romanians will come after them and drawing them fight them out. But before that, on 28 June 1940, when we received Soviet ultimatum, although we were allied with Yugoslavia and the Treaty provides that when Romania entered the war with another state and a third attack Romania, Yugoslavia is obliged to declare war like ally of ROMANIA at the third State. The inverse was true. Serbs have asked us not to jeopardize risking a war with the USSR, the only declared themselves ready to meet their commitments were Turks.”
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

We became a market for Western bad and expensive products and this will happen to you , too.I wish you all the best from Bucharest.
(Romanian Warrior, 2 November 2011 08:38)
--
I don't think Serbia will ever join NATO (or Russia). Being neutral has served us better while we have plenty of friends in the unaligned movement. Personally, I don't think Serbia has any problems with Romania, perhaps some minor issues with minorities but I haven't heard of any. I consider Romania a good friend and I have visited the country and enjoyed it immensely. Unlike some Albanians here who disrespect your country, I can only recommend it and I have done so to many people in Serbia (internationals and locals).

The problem I noticed is that, as you mentioned, prices have skyrocketed, you are sending people to fight other peoples wars and you are disrespected by your "Western partners". As a Romanian described to me when I was there - during the communist times people had money but couldn't buy much. Now the shops are full but they don't have any money. Personally I believe that once the Euro-Asian structures develop, countries like Serbia and Romania can benefit from having both the money and affordability to prosper. We just have to open up to opportunities as they present themselves.

I also hope Romania considers the option be being neutral and not aligning herself with either Russia or NATO. That is a good way to stop the missiles pointing at your country. I know Romanians don't like Russia but you shouldn't really provoke unnecessary actions. It's not like they are occupying 15% of your territory.

"We believe Serbia should become an EU member country and part of Euro-Atlantic integration as soon as possible," the Romanian president said after his meeting with President Boris Tadić.
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Personally, I think Romania should start thinking about its future and integrate into the Euro-Asian structures. Romania is treated as a second-class country and abused by Euro-Atlantic powers. It would be nice to see this country regain its pride and face towards nations that respect it.

@Zoran:"Personally, I think Romania should start thinking about its future and integrate into the Euro-Asian structures. Romania is treated as a second-class country and abused by Euro-Atlantic powers. It would be nice to see this country regain its pride and face towards nations that respect it."

Well, ROMANIA is the seventh EU country as size and population, as well as one of the leading NATO members in Europe.Romania has troops in Afghanistan , Iraq, African countries etc. and together with Poland most troops in theaters of operations, except US,UK and France!!! In the near past 130 Romanian gendarmes from KFOR served in Kosovo and they save some churches and the civil population regarding with muslim albanians Christian(Orthodox churches -UNESCO monuments from Kosovo and Metohia).About the entry of Serbia in EU, that accession would normally be judged on the same terms of the eventual accession of Croatia in 2013-who needs the vote in 27 EU Parliaments as well as he favorable outcome in referendums in ALL 27 EU COUNTRIES!!!
Yes ZORAN, it is true EU decisions are taken mainly from Germany and France as well in NATO by US!!!You will see when you will be possible admitted like EU and NATO member.For example, in Romania new prices have increased by 300% since we entered the EU in 2007!!!We became a market for Western bad and expensive products and this will happen to you , too.I wish you all the best from Bucharest.

If you want to know more about the problems of the Romanian minority in the Timok Valley of Serbia, read about the Romanian priest in Malajnica ( Malainita).

Zoran,

For Serbia there is no alternative to the EU.

Serbia should follow the example of Romania and join the EU as soon as possible.

"Who are you kidding, the Romanians were very anti semitic and supported Hitler.
(The Count of Kosova, 2 November 2011 06:31) "

REALLY???We ROMANIANS have built and Holocaust Memorial in Bucharest!!!!!, for jews and gypsies!!!!WHERE IS DISCRIMINATION against jews and gypsies in ROMANIA????This
is as well as the old adage who says: A REPEATED LIES risk of falling, for some, one Truth.Read historical documents, hypocritical albanian count of Kosova!Some Romanian territories was taken by force by Russia during WWII. This is why the Romanian Marshall Antonescu declared war to Russia in 1941 - to recover a Romanian territory. Read real history first, and then post. You learned history at the sovietic school of hodja, albanian count of kosovo .

@(Radu-Mihail P., of Romania,
Perhaps when you allow Serbian language to be accepted the same way as you allow others in Romania then you can ask for it in Serbia.
Until then, ask for your rights in the countries whose language you accept already.

Seriously, I think no country should allow another language to be accepted at the level some are in some countries in Europe.
Serbia already accepts Albanian.
If you are a citizen of a particular country then you should accept that language as the only language because anything less is dividing people.
One country, one language will do more to unite.
Everyone is free to speak whatever they like at home but the sense of belonging to a country should outstrip any allegiance to any foreign power.
I say the same for Serbs living anywhere else. Keep your language, religion and tradition but you cannot expect your host country to turn itself into fifty other countries just to make their minorities feel like they live some place else.

Serbia should respect the rights of the Romanian minority in the Timok Valley.
(Mircea EU citizen, 1 November 2011 12:48)
=======================

Please explain how exactly is Serbia abusing the Romanian minority. It's one thing to make a sweeping accusation like this but another to actually put forward some facts.

@Peggy and others:

The situation of Romanian-speaking population called "Vlachs" by Serbs is quite difficult to explain in a forum post. But I don't understand why you ask about proofs of persecution(?). Since when only those persecuted are allowed to demand legitimate rights (like usage of native language in Church)? Should the Romanians/Vlachs of Serbia be persecuted first, and only then they are supposed to demand attention to their rights? Or, if they do not demand openly such normal rights, then it would be OK for the Serbian state to keep quiet about the issue? I remember that nobody persecutes the Scots in UK, and still they gradually demanded rights for their people, so much that in 1997 they got their own Parliament... Is there a double standard in human rights, based on what part of Europe a certain people lives in?

I would like to point out that in Eastern Europe, the collapse of Communism did not mean, automatically, that each majority group started to respect the human rights of minorities, from the first minute of freedom. Certainly this was not the case of Romania, and for sure was not the case of ex-Iugoslavia or Serbia. Building a democratic society requires political will from the majority, plus time and dialogue. And that's exactly what Romania and Serbia are doing, through their presidents. Romania is not a perfect country, neither is Serbia. But things will move forward only if we discuss openly and fairly, as Mr. Tadic noticed.

As for the members of Romanian-speaking population living in Timoc Valley, they should be free to call themselves Romanians or Vlachs, whatever they like. If they consider themselves Romanians, they should have the status of national minority, as the Romanians in Voivodina have already. And Serbia should not try, in any way, to force them abandon their rights, because they want no separate country and they are loyal to the Serbian state. Also, any accusation of territorial claim from Romania towards Serbia is the ultimate nonsense! We do not have such suspicions towards Serbia, or Serbs living in Romania, therefore we hardly understand why Belgrade has a problem with the fact that Vlachs may want to be considered Romanians? Yes, we know that due to the Kosovo debacle, the national feelings of Serbs are quite sensitive, but how will help if Vlachs who consider themselves Romanians are kept without the right to conserve their identity and language, by refusing them the national minority status, as their brothers in Voivodina have?
So far, Romania has acted in a friendly, open and honest manner towards Serbia. This goes not only for politicians, but also for the Romanian media and the general public. I am one of the many Romanians who don't like president Basescu, but he was right: "those [Vlachs] who are of Romanian descent have the right to preserve their culture and language and this right should be respected". To me, it looks like a common-sense approach.

Last but not least, dear Westerners, please be more careful when you offer (as permanent reference) examples from "wonderful" countries like USA or Australia, whose history is full of abuses against indigenous populations (American Indians and Aboriginal Australians) or against large segments of their citizens (like African Americans in US), going up to second half of 20th century. You probably realize that we, the South-Eastern Europeans (or Balkan people, if you like) posting here, we are not some poor, uneducated peasants that need to be lectured about the "magnifique" past experience of Western powers. Speaking about peasants: while the serfdom was abolished by law in the Romanian Principalities of Wallachia (1746) and Moldavia (1749), and also in Serbia (1804), the British Parliament issued its Slavery Abolition Act only in 1833, and the "great" US of A terminated slavery only in 1865, by adopting the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution... And I am not even mentioning when Australian authorities started to recognize the human rights of Indigenous Australians!

"I remember that nobody persecutes the Scots in UK, and still they gradually demanded rights for their people, so much that in 1997 they got their own Parliament... Is there a double standard in human rights, based on what part of Europe a certain people lives in?"
=========================

Surely you are not comparing the Scottish in the UK and Romanians in Serbia.
Scotland is part of the UK while Romania is NOT a part of Serbia.
Huge difference.

I personally respect & like Romania and hope that Serbia & Romania can remain friends just like they have throughout history.

I sincerely hope that Romanian minority in Serbia are treated well. I don't know of any mistreatment of the 'Vlachs' but I am not saying it happens and I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying I'd like to learn more..

"Which of our values have you got a problem with? The main EU constitutional document (Lisbon Treaty) sets them out as "human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights".

Dear TC, it would be nice if these would really be the values governing the West. But I am afraid they're not.
Now, I make a distinction between common people and politicians, and I am sure many common Westerners like you, they really do believe that it is all about democracy and human rights. Unfortunately, simple Westerners are represented by Western politicians, and from what I've seen so far, the politicians believe only in money, or oil, or gas, or guns, or influence. For many of your leaders, this is all about. Such leaders embraced Ceausescu, Ghaddafi, Mubarak, Ben Ali and other dictators for decades; others, like Angela Merkel, they think only how to appease the Russians, for fear not to be charged more for gas imports. You know, Ceausescu was transported with the official carriage of the British Queen in 1978, when he visited London with full honors; Francois Mitterrand offered him a "de luxe" car as a gift. Why we should believe in the principles enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty if today, UK and France treat us as "second grade EU citizens"? Oh, excuse me, I think I get it: the EU and its principles (like freedom of movement for every body) were a good idea ONLY as long as millions of educated and hard-working Eastern Europeans would fill the jobs Westerners are fed-up with. And Kosovo was a good cause when the West needed to show it stays for justice, but somehow in the process, from "let's save the Albanians from Milosevic persecutions", it ended up in "let's make a new state in Europe, because we have too many Kosovo Albanian&Muslim refugees in our pretty countries and we need a place to dump them, and we have no time and no guts to impose a more balanced agreement between them and Serbs".

You may feel offended by my opinion, but we are affected on daily basis by the decisions made by your elected governments, therefore we cannot excuse their hypocrisy. And these are your leaders, therefore you are also responsible for their actions. So do not come in front of us like a knight in shinny armor, quoting from EU treaties, because (as an old saying goes) "we were not born yesterday".

We don`t want any inch of Serbian territory. The only thing we are asking for is that they get the same rights like other minorities in Serbia. Nothing more. They wold still be loyal citizens of Serbia and would have to respect the laws of their country. So we are not asking for something special.

"I can tell you one thing and that is that nobody gets their own language in Australia. Universities are in ONE LANGUAGE ONLY and that is English so you can speak whatever you like at home but you must use English when in public sector. Sure, there are interpreters but the official and only language of the country is English. Come here and claim your rights and then tell us that Australia is undemocratic and abuses it's minorities.
Try this in any other western country and see if you will be allowed to get a degree in any other language but the language of that country. Hey, go to America and study in Romanian and let's see how their universities treat their "minorities".
(Peggy, 1 November 2011 20:56)

Well, I would not deny that Australia is a democracy - at least, not nowadays Australia (to follow the steps of my fellow countryman Traian :)))
But in Romania, one may get a degree in Hungarian or German language(s), at the multicultural Babes-Bolyai University of Cluj, one of the main Transylvanian cities (and this is the second biggest University in Romania, after the one in Bucharest). And this is possible despite (or because) the fact that ethnic Hungarians are up to 5% of Romanian citizens, and Germans around (or less than) one percent. Also, in any municipality where a minority is making up more than 20% of the population, their language is used in public sector (administration, police, hospitals etc.). Of course, this is mainly the case of Hungarians living in two Transilvanian counties, Covasna and Harghita, were they are the vast majority.
I wonder, if Romania does that, and Australia does not, but Australia is a democracy (which is an undisputed fact), then how you would describe Romania - as a super-democracy - or uber-democracy, for German speakers :))))
You see, Ms. Australia, that's why I must agree with the above-mentioned Romanian colleague, Traian, that Westerners should take a break in lecturing us, simply because the West is not in the possession of the "absolute truth" or "the answer to all questions". At least, not when about OUR lands and people.

Last but not least: regarding our attitude towards the West - most of us we like the level of living (in terms of general development), but not necessary the values of the West. As Buddha said once, "there are many ways to reach Nirvana", and I personally think that the jury is still out on how good would be the Western approach in some places of Earth, like China or the Middle East countries.

@ Peggy:
I wonder if you have fully read my previous comments: "in any [Romanian] municipality where a minority is making up more than 20% of the population, their language is used in public sector (administration, police, hospitals etc.)". There are three municipalities like this in Romania, at the border with Serbia. Also, for your information, based on official data issued by the Romanian and Serbian authorities (2002 censuses), in Serbia are living, roughly, 7 times more Romanians (or Vlachs considering themselves Romanians) than Serbs living in Romania. You may check the data on wikipedia.org. Sure, it is not a matter of numbers, but of principle, therefore we ask for nothing more that we give to others.

Also, FYI, all these efforts to accommodate minority rights in Central-Eastern Europe are the direct result of the Western governments pressures, immediately after the collapse of Communism. For Romania, as for other countries in the region, amending the national legislation and establishing provisions for the safekeeping of minorities' identity, language and culture were mandatory measures, in order to join Council of Europe, EU, NATO and OSCE (to name the most important international organizations interested in this topic).
Now, with all due respect, I will not consider your opinion as representative for the Western values and principles regarding the rights of minorities . However, it is funny to hear a Westerner saying what you say, after we and others in the region did our best (and mostly succeeded) in upgrading our laws and institutions in line with CoE/EU/OSCE recommendations. I remember how in 1992, while I was a young student at Bucharest University, they were two Swiss and one German MPs visiting our department, to explain how beautifully works the multicultural Western society in their countries. But I guess things are not so pretty anymore in either Switzerland or Germany, isn't?

PS 1: In my previous comment, I was not comparing Scotland with Romania, but the legitimate rights of Scottish population in UK with the rights of Romanian/Vlach population in Serbia. You don't need to twist or extract my sayings from the context, just for the sake of the argument. Maybe a better example would have been Catalonia - I spent a week in Barcelona recently, and I never heard once the word "Madrid". Now, this is nationalism! :)))

PS 2: It must be very interesting to be a citizen of a country where there is only one language and only one nation. I remember this was also Hitler's goal ("Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer"). I am not implying that your position is a Fascist one, but I would like to warn you that such black-and-white approach may be misleading. I quote you: “If you are a citizen of a particular country then you should accept that language as the only language because anything less is dividing people”. Are you sure? Then tens of countries in Europe and worldwide are on the brink of implosion from internal divisions! Also, keeping your native language or faith doesn’t mean that you are a “fifth column” member.
Maybe this is the case about Australia, or UK, or US, or other Western countries (maybe as an unfortunate outcome of 9/11). However, you may rest assured, when Romanians are emigrating in any of these, they do learn and speak the local language, because “when in Rome, you do as Romans do”. But this is the case for emigrants, not for historical ethnic minority groups.
Moreover, down here, in Balkans, we were so mixed by history that we have only one possibility: to consider each minority an asset, not a vulnerability for a country. We, Romanians, we consider ourselves lucky to have 16 minorities in our country, all of them enriching the culture and the society we all benefit from. We only hope that same is thought about ethnic Romanians living in other neighboring countries, especially in Serbia, the country&people we like the most from the region!