LGBT community holds protest in Belgrade

I'm glad to see the LGBT out there. Unfortunately, they've got a long and difficult battle ahead of them in Serbia, but they should keep fighting. Blacks were still slaves in the US up until 1863 and now we see a rather different picture. Jews were slaughtered in the millions 70 years ago but how many in Europe would support such a policy today?
Things change. One day, the world will come to its senses and accept people regardless of their sexual orientation.

Homophobes like SCP UK will probably never change, and I can only hope that the authorities will learn to keep such individuals far, far away where they can do no harm. Let them dwell in their sad little world.

SCP UK,

the idea of a protest is not to intimidate, but to make people aware of your position.

Danilo, somehow I dont think the beatles were singing about gays, afterall none of them were gay.

SCP,

You really do have a humour deficiency, don't you?

@Danilo, no my sense of humour is absolutely fine I just think yours is rather strange.

@Nenad, yeh so keeping people like me away as far as possible is really democractic isnt it. To suggest that this opinion of the Serbian people will just "change" is utterly naive. There is no way you can compare black slavery and the Holocaust with this issue, it is just a completely inappropriate and extreme comparison. With such an issue you cannot simply just change minds. In the countries where gay rights thrive is not to say that their populations suddenly at one point in time changed their minds over the issue, rather political correctness began to persecute people, so people whose opinions are against the issue are kept quiet, as is done in the UK where one can barely express patriotic or strong cultural views without having offended someone and thus ending up in court. Those who do "change their minds" are so fickle minded that they swallow BS from the media, and this media helps to influence children so they grow up thinking in such a way, thus often contradicting their parents' teachings. In a country like Serbia where culture is still very strong political correctness will not prevail, thus allowing western established gay rights organizations to fail.
(SCP UK, 19 October 2011 20:42)

Just so we're clear here. The protest is over a climate of extreme violence against Gay Serbs by Orthodox inspired skinheads. The police and judiciary in Serbia send the message that violence against Gays will be tolerated because they refuse to prosecute and jail (for any significant time period) anyone for violent attacks and terrorism against Gay Serbs. And don't think that its just Gays that are 'under the gun' in Belgrade. The Serbian Orthodox/Nationalist movement has a shopping list and a history of recent and extreme violence against a long list of ethnic/sexual minorities combined with official sanction of that violence in their nullification of basic protections for those groups.

Does Serbia today equate to Nazi Germany of 1942? No. It is no better than Alabama in 1960, however. Just like Alabama of 1960, there are people opposed to the violence and repression and brutality of the state/Church/Klan/nationalist/whites attempting to prevent minorities from exercising (very) basic civil rights. Those Serbs opposed to violent thuggery and sharia (albeit Orthodox Sharia) and police nullification of their duty should start to speak before Serbia gets more of a reputation that offends massive numbers of people in the larger world. And yes, the entire civilized democratic world is disgusted by violent attacks on Gays. You don't have to personally support homosexuality to be civilized. You have to support their right to speak and exist publically without discrimination and violence. Unfortunately, many in the Serbia power structure and their allied youth thugs haven't figured that out yet.

SCP UK is whining about persecution of Orthodoxers by Gays??? Because Serbia is being criticized because a group that cannot hold a peaceful march going 100 feet in a public park without being attacked by Orthodox thugs? Because people are getting stabbed on the streets simply for wearing a shirt saying "I support Gay rights"?

I think that SCP UK may be a potential threat to the Gay community in the UK and should be investigated by the Immigration Bureau. Not because he hates Gays, but because he apparently thinks that violence is an acceptable solution to those who engage in peaceful speech that he disagrees with.

@ SPC UK

I suggest looking on the web for old Tom in Lazybrook before you decide to interact with him.

Old Tom has been around for a long time visiting numerous web sites. He appeared on B92 because the gay pride parade was canceled in Belgrade. As examples...

Tom in Lazybrook says:
Havana Times
May 15, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Ok..So Cuba’s Gays got a march today. But Cuba is still so anti-Gay that there isn’t ONE SINGLE GAY BAR on the entire island

Tom in Lazybrook says:
Baltic Reports
May 6, 2010 at 6:46 am "Lithuania is a fascist state...Your nation is a failure as a democracy. It is a failure as an economy. It is a failure period."

Comment by Tom in Lazybrook — May 3, 2009
GayPatriot
And if you don’t speak to this, I don’t want to hear you whining because you don’t get called for comment on Gay issues. Because you were silent on a major Gay news story.
(Roger7, 20 October 2011 22:44)

Congrats Roger, you know how to google! Yes that is me. You can find me calling out Jamaica, Russia, Lithuania, Moldova, Uganda, Serbia, Slovakia, Georgia, and multiple cases calling out local governments in the USA for their anti-Gay behavior. Of course, I'm on here because Serbia lets terrorism thrive against Gay people. I'm a Gay man from Texas. I'm not Serbian, nor Albanian, nor Kosovar, nor Orthodox, nor Bosniak, etc. When Serbia offends the world, you get worldwide condemnation. I'm completely consistent. We will certainly bring up the situation in Split at the EU and we will ensure that Montenegro, Macedonia, Kosova, and Albania have Gay Pride parades before they get to join prestigious organizations like the EU. The point I would like Serbians who have an open mind about these issues to understand that there are people outside of Serbia who are deeply offended by the states behavior. And this issue is greater than Serbia. If Serbia can defy the EU and the COE, then Bulgaria and Romania might decide to backslide on their commitments as well.

By the way Lithuania just scrapped the anti-Gay law we were upset with. After the Gay community demanded that the EP pull a Section 21 on them. And has now had a Gay Pride Parade. And will have one from here on out. And the homophobe in the Seimas can't do anything about it unless they want to rejoin Russia. By the way, that's the same EP that will be voting on any accession to the EU for Serbia. Congrats on the candidate status. You won't be a member until you start jailing those committing violence against Gays for significant terms and your police forces actually protect the basic rights of Gay Serbs to assemble and protest on the streets of Belgrade even if the Irinej doesn't like what they have to say. We've also been very successful in Slovakia as well. Even Jamaica is having to clean up its act (baby steps, but steps nonetheless) as a result of a never ending campaign to make Jamaica OWN its record. And we intend to make Serbia OWN its' record to. We can't force Serbia to allow Gays to hold Pride Parades as is their right under Serbian law and their accession accords to the Council of Europe. But we will continue to ensure that Serbia's violations are publicized every time Serbia wishes to sweep it under the rug. Its not finished until Serbia's Gays get to march or Serbia is expelled from the COE like Belarus.

We call out right wingers and left wingers. If you ban our freedom of speech, petition, protest, assembly, association, and expression, we will never let you guys forget it.

But back to the subject at hand. Serbia refuses to prosecute and jail anyone for physical violence against Gay Serbs. Again, no one is going to jail over attempted murder. This stabbing can only be understood within the context of a government and society that feels that violence against Gays is acceptable and should not be considered a serious problem. Crime is committed against Gays with total and complete impugnity. No one has gone to jail for any significant time over the rioting last year. No one will go to jail over the use of terrorist threats to deny minorities their very basic human rights. The police are engaged in 1950's Alabama-style collusion with the right wing mobs seeking to use violence to keep minorities "in their place".
Roger, I don't think you can win an argument on Gay rights on its merits. Neiter can Patriarch Irinej or Dveri or SCP UK. That's why you seek to keep Gay people from making their arguments in public as they see fit. Because you've got no effective response to counter our arguments. Keep googling buddy.

-I'm glad to see the LGBT out there. Unfortunately, they've got a long and difficult battle ahead of them in Serbia, but they should keep fighting. Blacks were still slaves in the US up until 1863 and now we see a rather different picture. Jews were slaughtered in the millions 70 years ago but how many in Europe would support such a policy today?
Things change. One day, the world will come to its senses and accept people regardless of their sexual orientation. (nenad)-

Thanks Nenad, i appreciate yr support. the homophobes/ultra nationalists don't own the site/country/balkans. they just think they do.

it is really disgusting to defend homophobia and attacks ag. lgbt people based on "democratic, majority" principles. what a bizarre perversion of democratic values. they have no clue. minority rights are meaningless for them, and that is a friggin dangerous situation.

i pretty much compare the situation for lgbt people in the balkans to the 1950s in the US. Of course that is a gross generalization, and somewhat a-historic. but it is pretty backwards and reactionary, and also highly colored by conservative (Radical) religious principles, so to speak. what they call religion.
there is religion (the church), there is widespread prejudice, ever present threat (or reality) of violence, but... there is precious little conscience. a very dangerous situation.

anyway,i am so proud of our lgbt activists in serbia, who refuse to take no for an answer. such courage, in the face of such danger, oppression, indifference (at best.) they really deserve our greatest support.

as i've written many times, it is easy enough for us in the west to write, to fight (online), to protest (usually), but there it is always a threat to life and limb, esp.ly for lgbt people.

we will overcome, but it will take time and a LOT of work.

ciao! roberto frisco

@ SPC UK

I suggest looking on the web for old Tom in Lazybrook before you decide to interact with him.

Old Tom has been around for a long time visiting numerous web sites. He appeared on B92 because the gay pride parade was canceled in Belgrade. As examples...

Tom in Lazybrook says:
Havana Times
May 15, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Ok..So Cuba’s Gays got a march today. But Cuba is still so anti-Gay that there isn’t ONE SINGLE GAY BAR on the entire island

Tom in Lazybrook says:
Baltic Reports
May 6, 2010 at 6:46 am "Lithuania is a fascist state...Your nation is a failure as a democracy. It is a failure as an economy. It is a failure period."

Comment by Tom in Lazybrook — May 3, 2009
GayPatriot
And if you don’t speak to this, I don’t want to hear you whining because you don’t get called for comment on Gay issues. Because you were silent on a major Gay news story.

LOL as if the gays are going to intimidate anyone with their 'its enough' protest. Why even are they holding it in the same time and place as a road workers protest? this will only rubbish the road workers' protest.

Poor narrow minded homoextremist.I am myself catholic and a frequent visitor to Belgrade(although thanks god straight)and the only thing i meet there is endless hospitality which I never experianced in Texas for example.You are bigger panicmongrel than morally bankrupt brainwashing zion-yankee media.Also the nice tall dinaric type serbian girls are real miracle as opposed to Mc donalds and GM-food eating overweight women from Houston(no wonder that so many turn gays over there).Otherwise your bloodthirsty wish to punnish everyone who is against gay clown parades is so similar to that overpunishing instinct the Hitlerists had in 1941 when they executed 100 civilians for every killed german soldier.
(szemi, 20 October 2011 20:23)

So, wishing that Serbia punish those stabbing people because they are wearing a shirt that supports Gay rights is equal to being a Nazi? Or demanding that Serbia be held accountable for its refusal to abide by its' own constitution and its Council of Europe accords? Or demanding that the police force protect the rights of minorities instead of colluding with criminal groups that see to use violence or the threat of violence to keep a minorities from assembling on the streets?

Might I suggest you seriously read some history of Germany in the 1930's before you eqauate my comments demanding that Serbia honor its' constitution and its COE accesion accords by protecting minorities with Nazism. And no. Serbia isn't quite Germany of 1933. But it is more like Alabama of the 1950's.

"Zion-Yankee media"? What does Israel have to do with this? By the way, that phrasing might be construed as the language of an anti-Semite. If that is your intent, I wouldn't be surprised.

Look, Serbia is in direct and continuing violation of its consitution, its accession accords to the Council of Europe which Serbia has signed under its' own accord. We intend to remind Serbia of that at every opporutunity until Serbia either changes its laws to be like Belarus or follows the rule of law.

See you at the next Gay Pride in Belgrade. It will be soon.

Kisses

XOXO.

@Danilo, no my sense of humour is absolutely fine I just think yours is rather strange.

@Nenad, yeh so keeping people like me away as far as possible is really democractic isnt it. To suggest that this opinion of the Serbian people will just "change" is utterly naive. There is no way you can compare black slavery and the Holocaust with this issue, it is just a completely inappropriate and extreme comparison. With such an issue you cannot simply just change minds. In the countries where gay rights thrive is not to say that their populations suddenly at one point in time changed their minds over the issue, rather political correctness began to persecute people, so people whose opinions are against the issue are kept quiet, as is done in the UK where one can barely express patriotic or strong cultural views without having offended someone and thus ending up in court. Those who do "change their minds" are so fickle minded that they swallow BS from the media, and this media helps to influence children so they grow up thinking in such a way, thus often contradicting their parents' teachings. In a country like Serbia where culture is still very strong political correctness will not prevail, thus allowing western established gay rights organizations to fail.

;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM02WcvlKn0

So you speak of democracy and allowing gays to protest, yet when I speak my mind I am to be investigated and so on. People like you really make me sick with your double standards, typical of western liberal types like yourself. Heres a piece of advice, (and for the record I am a Serb) keep your noses in your own nations, for when you come to Serbia and try to tell Serbs how their society ought to be you are going to end up in much more danger than any gay person. There is nothing worse than someone from another country lecturing a society and a nation that has nothing to do with them.
(SCP UK, 20 October 2011 14:40)

You endorse judicial nullification of laws protecting Gays from violence and cheerlead (or worse) the banning of their unquestionable right to hold a Gay Pride Parade in their national capital, even if skinhead thugs in the police and the Orthodox Church don't want it. Free speech means free speech, even if you don't like it. You have the double standard, not I.

Thanks for your protestation that 'you really don't hate Gay people who don't ever assert themselves or demand redress of grievences'. I don't believe you.

However, you don't have a right to live/work/travel to other countries to promote views contrary to that governments'. And to cheerlead the violation of human rights. Or your support of the culture of impunity (fostered by your Internal Minstry and your police) which results in banning of Gay speech and stabbing of Gay people in your capital. Or your blaming Gay people for the violence as its their fault that they DARE speak up for themselves. Its not a double standard. You have free speech in your own nation (Serbia). Serbia can ban foreign Gays from entering their nation (like Russia - whose citizens have issues with visas). However, if they did so, they can kiss the Schengen goodbye. I don't have a right to a UK visa. Neither do you. You are a guest in their nation. You'd be wise to remember that and perhaps to ask yourself WHY you are in Britian right now (paying taxes to help NATO by the way). How does Serbia create an economy that allows for its' citizens to stay in Serbia? By having skinhead thugs run amok all over your capital without appropriate correction by your police and judciary? Extreme violence against religous and sexual minorities? Religious interference in the political framework? Basically, if one isn't straight, white, and Orthodox, you aren't welcome in Serbia (and you might be in physical danger. Do you think this is going to help foreign investment in Serbia?

@jgj

Their position is well known to everyone, and it is almost completely reject. On the other hand though their protest wont change peoples minds, gay culture will never fully infiltrate Serbian society.

Basically, if one isn't straight, white, and Orthodox, you aren't welcome in Serbia (and you might be in physical danger. Do you think this is going to help foreign investment in Serbia?
(Tom in Lazybrook, 20 October 2011 18:59)
Poor narrow minded homoextremist.I am myself catholic and a frequent visitor to Belgrade(although thanks god straight)and the only thing i meet there is endless hospitality which I never experianced in Texas for example.You are bigger panicmongrel than morally bankrupt brainwashing zion-yankee media.Also the nice tall dinaric type serbian girls are real miracle as opposed to Mc donalds and GM-food eating overweight women from Houston(no wonder that so many turn gays over there).Otherwise your bloodthirsty wish to punnish everyone who is against gay clown parades is so similar to that overpunishing instinct the Hitlerists had in 1941 when they executed 100 civilians for every killed german soldier.

SCP UK

So, That means that you're as Serbian as I am.

SCP UK wrote: "Also you might want to hold back a little on your view of a gay pride parade next year, as we saw it was banned in 2009, authorised in 2010, but banned again in 2011, and there is a reason why, dont think that in a year or even many years Serbs will just change their minds."

Could you expand a bit on WHY it was "banned"?

Was it perhaps, because the Serbian state can not guarantee the safety of its citizens in the middle of the capital?

If that was the case, then I strongly suggest you direct your attention and ire at that issue. After all, pProviding safety for ALL its citizens is one of the fundamental things a state is about.

--
Jan Andersen (DK)

@Roger7, thank you very much for provding me with that information.

@Tom in Lazybrook,
To shut you up, the reason I am in the UK is because I was born here, to a family who ended up here in fear of execution from communists after WWII, so while I have all rights in the UK with UK citizenship, as a Serb and with close relatives who fought for the Serbian people with their lives, I have full legitimacy to comment on Serbian issues, you on the other hand with the lack of ties with Serbia do not. It is clear thanks to Roger7 that you spend and waste your life commenting, ranting, moaning and most likely crying about the fact that not every country in the world accepts gay culture as it is in various western societies, I typed your alias into google myself and your constant ranting is evident. I have no more reason to debate with the likes of you, where it is in fact not a debate but me having to defend myself to an absolute nobody, take my advice and get a life.

@Tom in lazybrook,

I would suggest that surely by living in Texas there are problems with gay rights you have to sort out before you think on the international scale. Afterall you act like I am some minority view in Serbia which will be pushed aside by the victorious majority, where as I am in fact in the vast majority and voice that opinion, to think you and your activist friends can come and make changes to our country is an utter joke. The more I hear from you I in fact begin to laugh as opposed to get annoyed. And I have news for you about EU membership, trying to threaten Serbs by saying that we wont get EU membership if we dont kneel to your demands is only an incentive to continue holding the views that we do, because I have news for you, the vast majority of the Serbian population is against EU membership. Also you might want to hold back a little on your view of a gay pride parade next year, as we saw it was banned in 2009, authorised in 2010, but banned again in 2011, and there is a reason why, dont think that in a year or even many years Serbs will just change their minds.

So finally, you are free to voice your opinion, although I may hugely disagree I cannot stop you from saying something, however the second you try and change our laws when you are not even a Serbian citizen, you will be met with great anger if you ever step foot in Serbia.
(SCP UK, 21 October 2011 14:40)

In Texas, like Serbia, we don't have Gay marriage. Unlike Serbia, Gay Texans are able to adovocate for our cause. We have massive Gay Pride Parades, the mayor of the largest city in Texas is an out lesbian, the sheriff of Dallas is a Lesbian, and out Gays serve as popularly elected officals in many cities and counties (even school boards) in the state. Every police force in Texas takes crimes against Gays seriously and in the infrequent cases where crimes occur, very long prision sentences are the rule. In Serbia, violence against Gays goes unpunished.

I understand that there are many Serbs, perhaps even a majority, that hate Gay people. That is irrelevant. Democracy only works when even those that are unpopular have the same rights to the public arena to make their arguments as they see fit. Even if you don't like what they have to say. It may also be the case that many Serbs may wish for the police to assualt Gay people or protect those that do simply due to animosity. That also is not consistent with basic human rights for minorities.

You don't understand. If Serbia isn't serious about change, I don't want them in the EU. Because having Serbia in the EU and in abrogation of their accession accords creates an opening for other Eastern European countries to abrogate their human rights obligations as well. I'm not threatening Serbia. I'm stating fact. No Gay Pride. No EU. No jail for those committing terrorist acts or terrorist threats against minorities. No EU. If Serbia chooses to pursue the Belarus model of government and economy, that's something that they can do. But they can't do it in the Council of Europe or the EU.

Justice delayed is justice denied. I suggest that in the event of a ban next year, that Parada Ponosa simply announce that they will apply for a Gay Pride Permit the next weekend. And keep doing so until Serbia allows it to go forward without violence (or arrests and jails with long sentences those committing violence against them).

I'm not asking or demanding that Serbia CHANGE their laws. I'm simply insisting that Serbia OBEY its own constitution and accession accords to the Council of Europe.

See you at Gay Pride Belgrade next year.

@Tom in lazybrook,

For you to call me a threat to the UK gay community and calls for me to be investigated are utterly outrageous. First of all, who in the world are you to make such a call? Secondly you clearly have my point of view all wrong, that you think I am in favour of violence against gays, this is totally incorrect, violence only tarnishes people on my side of the argument so for that reason and that I believe its wrong to violently abuse them I am against violence. I have encountered gays during my life time, such as having some gay teachers in school, who I respected for being modest about their sexuality, and not parading it. If I was such a threat I would have by your calculations have assaulted many gay people, I have not and would never do such a thing.

So you speak of democracy and allowing gays to protest, yet when I speak my mind I am to be investigated and so on. People like you really make me sick with your double standards, typical of western liberal types like yourself. Heres a piece of advice, (and for the record I am a Serb) keep your noses in your own nations, for when you come to Serbia and try to tell Serbs how their society ought to be you are going to end up in much more danger than any gay person. There is nothing worse than someone from another country lecturing a society and a nation that has nothing to do with them.

@Tom in lazybrook,

I would suggest that surely by living in Texas there are problems with gay rights you have to sort out before you think on the international scale. Afterall you act like I am some minority view in Serbia which will be pushed aside by the victorious majority, where as I am in fact in the vast majority and voice that opinion, to think you and your activist friends can come and make changes to our country is an utter joke. The more I hear from you I in fact begin to laugh as opposed to get annoyed. And I have news for you about EU membership, trying to threaten Serbs by saying that we wont get EU membership if we dont kneel to your demands is only an incentive to continue holding the views that we do, because I have news for you, the vast majority of the Serbian population is against EU membership. Also you might want to hold back a little on your view of a gay pride parade next year, as we saw it was banned in 2009, authorised in 2010, but banned again in 2011, and there is a reason why, dont think that in a year or even many years Serbs will just change their minds.

So finally, you are free to voice your opinion, although I may hugely disagree I cannot stop you from saying something, however the second you try and change our laws when you are not even a Serbian citizen, you will be met with great anger if you ever step foot in Serbia.

@Tom:

I appreciate your articulate passion on this matter.

However, you should realize, that for people like SCP "Serbia will never join the EU" is a rather impotent threat. People like SCP don't want Serbia to join the EU. They'd rather discriminate against gays than join the EU.

LOL as if the gays are going to intimidate anyone with their 'its enough' protest. Why even are they holding it in the same time and place as a road workers protest? this will only rubbish the road workers' protest.

@jgj

Their position is well known to everyone, and it is almost completely reject. On the other hand though their protest wont change peoples minds, gay culture will never fully infiltrate Serbian society.

;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM02WcvlKn0

SCP,

You really do have a humour deficiency, don't you?

@Danilo, no my sense of humour is absolutely fine I just think yours is rather strange.

@Nenad, yeh so keeping people like me away as far as possible is really democractic isnt it. To suggest that this opinion of the Serbian people will just "change" is utterly naive. There is no way you can compare black slavery and the Holocaust with this issue, it is just a completely inappropriate and extreme comparison. With such an issue you cannot simply just change minds. In the countries where gay rights thrive is not to say that their populations suddenly at one point in time changed their minds over the issue, rather political correctness began to persecute people, so people whose opinions are against the issue are kept quiet, as is done in the UK where one can barely express patriotic or strong cultural views without having offended someone and thus ending up in court. Those who do "change their minds" are so fickle minded that they swallow BS from the media, and this media helps to influence children so they grow up thinking in such a way, thus often contradicting their parents' teachings. In a country like Serbia where culture is still very strong political correctness will not prevail, thus allowing western established gay rights organizations to fail.

Poor narrow minded homoextremist.I am myself catholic and a frequent visitor to Belgrade(although thanks god straight)and the only thing i meet there is endless hospitality which I never experianced in Texas for example.You are bigger panicmongrel than morally bankrupt brainwashing zion-yankee media.Also the nice tall dinaric type serbian girls are real miracle as opposed to Mc donalds and GM-food eating overweight women from Houston(no wonder that so many turn gays over there).Otherwise your bloodthirsty wish to punnish everyone who is against gay clown parades is so similar to that overpunishing instinct the Hitlerists had in 1941 when they executed 100 civilians for every killed german soldier.
(szemi, 20 October 2011 20:23)

So, wishing that Serbia punish those stabbing people because they are wearing a shirt that supports Gay rights is equal to being a Nazi? Or demanding that Serbia be held accountable for its refusal to abide by its' own constitution and its Council of Europe accords? Or demanding that the police force protect the rights of minorities instead of colluding with criminal groups that see to use violence or the threat of violence to keep a minorities from assembling on the streets?

Might I suggest you seriously read some history of Germany in the 1930's before you eqauate my comments demanding that Serbia honor its' constitution and its COE accesion accords by protecting minorities with Nazism. And no. Serbia isn't quite Germany of 1933. But it is more like Alabama of the 1950's.

"Zion-Yankee media"? What does Israel have to do with this? By the way, that phrasing might be construed as the language of an anti-Semite. If that is your intent, I wouldn't be surprised.

Look, Serbia is in direct and continuing violation of its consitution, its accession accords to the Council of Europe which Serbia has signed under its' own accord. We intend to remind Serbia of that at every opporutunity until Serbia either changes its laws to be like Belarus or follows the rule of law.

See you at the next Gay Pride in Belgrade. It will be soon.

Kisses

XOXO.

@Tom in lazybrook,

For you to call me a threat to the UK gay community and calls for me to be investigated are utterly outrageous. First of all, who in the world are you to make such a call? Secondly you clearly have my point of view all wrong, that you think I am in favour of violence against gays, this is totally incorrect, violence only tarnishes people on my side of the argument so for that reason and that I believe its wrong to violently abuse them I am against violence. I have encountered gays during my life time, such as having some gay teachers in school, who I respected for being modest about their sexuality, and not parading it. If I was such a threat I would have by your calculations have assaulted many gay people, I have not and would never do such a thing.

So you speak of democracy and allowing gays to protest, yet when I speak my mind I am to be investigated and so on. People like you really make me sick with your double standards, typical of western liberal types like yourself. Heres a piece of advice, (and for the record I am a Serb) keep your noses in your own nations, for when you come to Serbia and try to tell Serbs how their society ought to be you are going to end up in much more danger than any gay person. There is nothing worse than someone from another country lecturing a society and a nation that has nothing to do with them.

Basically, if one isn't straight, white, and Orthodox, you aren't welcome in Serbia (and you might be in physical danger. Do you think this is going to help foreign investment in Serbia?
(Tom in Lazybrook, 20 October 2011 18:59)
Poor narrow minded homoextremist.I am myself catholic and a frequent visitor to Belgrade(although thanks god straight)and the only thing i meet there is endless hospitality which I never experianced in Texas for example.You are bigger panicmongrel than morally bankrupt brainwashing zion-yankee media.Also the nice tall dinaric type serbian girls are real miracle as opposed to Mc donalds and GM-food eating overweight women from Houston(no wonder that so many turn gays over there).Otherwise your bloodthirsty wish to punnish everyone who is against gay clown parades is so similar to that overpunishing instinct the Hitlerists had in 1941 when they executed 100 civilians for every killed german soldier.

Danilo, somehow I dont think the beatles were singing about gays, afterall none of them were gay.

SCP UK,

the idea of a protest is not to intimidate, but to make people aware of your position.

I'm glad to see the LGBT out there. Unfortunately, they've got a long and difficult battle ahead of them in Serbia, but they should keep fighting. Blacks were still slaves in the US up until 1863 and now we see a rather different picture. Jews were slaughtered in the millions 70 years ago but how many in Europe would support such a policy today?
Things change. One day, the world will come to its senses and accept people regardless of their sexual orientation.

Homophobes like SCP UK will probably never change, and I can only hope that the authorities will learn to keep such individuals far, far away where they can do no harm. Let them dwell in their sad little world.

@Roger7, thank you very much for provding me with that information.

@Tom in Lazybrook,
To shut you up, the reason I am in the UK is because I was born here, to a family who ended up here in fear of execution from communists after WWII, so while I have all rights in the UK with UK citizenship, as a Serb and with close relatives who fought for the Serbian people with their lives, I have full legitimacy to comment on Serbian issues, you on the other hand with the lack of ties with Serbia do not. It is clear thanks to Roger7 that you spend and waste your life commenting, ranting, moaning and most likely crying about the fact that not every country in the world accepts gay culture as it is in various western societies, I typed your alias into google myself and your constant ranting is evident. I have no more reason to debate with the likes of you, where it is in fact not a debate but me having to defend myself to an absolute nobody, take my advice and get a life.

@ SPC UK

I suggest looking on the web for old Tom in Lazybrook before you decide to interact with him.

Old Tom has been around for a long time visiting numerous web sites. He appeared on B92 because the gay pride parade was canceled in Belgrade. As examples...

Tom in Lazybrook says:
Havana Times
May 15, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Ok..So Cuba’s Gays got a march today. But Cuba is still so anti-Gay that there isn’t ONE SINGLE GAY BAR on the entire island

Tom in Lazybrook says:
Baltic Reports
May 6, 2010 at 6:46 am "Lithuania is a fascist state...Your nation is a failure as a democracy. It is a failure as an economy. It is a failure period."

Comment by Tom in Lazybrook — May 3, 2009
GayPatriot
And if you don’t speak to this, I don’t want to hear you whining because you don’t get called for comment on Gay issues. Because you were silent on a major Gay news story.
(Roger7, 20 October 2011 22:44)

Congrats Roger, you know how to google! Yes that is me. You can find me calling out Jamaica, Russia, Lithuania, Moldova, Uganda, Serbia, Slovakia, Georgia, and multiple cases calling out local governments in the USA for their anti-Gay behavior. Of course, I'm on here because Serbia lets terrorism thrive against Gay people. I'm a Gay man from Texas. I'm not Serbian, nor Albanian, nor Kosovar, nor Orthodox, nor Bosniak, etc. When Serbia offends the world, you get worldwide condemnation. I'm completely consistent. We will certainly bring up the situation in Split at the EU and we will ensure that Montenegro, Macedonia, Kosova, and Albania have Gay Pride parades before they get to join prestigious organizations like the EU. The point I would like Serbians who have an open mind about these issues to understand that there are people outside of Serbia who are deeply offended by the states behavior. And this issue is greater than Serbia. If Serbia can defy the EU and the COE, then Bulgaria and Romania might decide to backslide on their commitments as well.

By the way Lithuania just scrapped the anti-Gay law we were upset with. After the Gay community demanded that the EP pull a Section 21 on them. And has now had a Gay Pride Parade. And will have one from here on out. And the homophobe in the Seimas can't do anything about it unless they want to rejoin Russia. By the way, that's the same EP that will be voting on any accession to the EU for Serbia. Congrats on the candidate status. You won't be a member until you start jailing those committing violence against Gays for significant terms and your police forces actually protect the basic rights of Gay Serbs to assemble and protest on the streets of Belgrade even if the Irinej doesn't like what they have to say. We've also been very successful in Slovakia as well. Even Jamaica is having to clean up its act (baby steps, but steps nonetheless) as a result of a never ending campaign to make Jamaica OWN its record. And we intend to make Serbia OWN its' record to. We can't force Serbia to allow Gays to hold Pride Parades as is their right under Serbian law and their accession accords to the Council of Europe. But we will continue to ensure that Serbia's violations are publicized every time Serbia wishes to sweep it under the rug. Its not finished until Serbia's Gays get to march or Serbia is expelled from the COE like Belarus.

We call out right wingers and left wingers. If you ban our freedom of speech, petition, protest, assembly, association, and expression, we will never let you guys forget it.

But back to the subject at hand. Serbia refuses to prosecute and jail anyone for physical violence against Gay Serbs. Again, no one is going to jail over attempted murder. This stabbing can only be understood within the context of a government and society that feels that violence against Gays is acceptable and should not be considered a serious problem. Crime is committed against Gays with total and complete impugnity. No one has gone to jail for any significant time over the rioting last year. No one will go to jail over the use of terrorist threats to deny minorities their very basic human rights. The police are engaged in 1950's Alabama-style collusion with the right wing mobs seeking to use violence to keep minorities "in their place".
Roger, I don't think you can win an argument on Gay rights on its merits. Neiter can Patriarch Irinej or Dveri or SCP UK. That's why you seek to keep Gay people from making their arguments in public as they see fit. Because you've got no effective response to counter our arguments. Keep googling buddy.

@ SPC UK

I suggest looking on the web for old Tom in Lazybrook before you decide to interact with him.

Old Tom has been around for a long time visiting numerous web sites. He appeared on B92 because the gay pride parade was canceled in Belgrade. As examples...

Tom in Lazybrook says:
Havana Times
May 15, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Ok..So Cuba’s Gays got a march today. But Cuba is still so anti-Gay that there isn’t ONE SINGLE GAY BAR on the entire island

Tom in Lazybrook says:
Baltic Reports
May 6, 2010 at 6:46 am "Lithuania is a fascist state...Your nation is a failure as a democracy. It is a failure as an economy. It is a failure period."

Comment by Tom in Lazybrook — May 3, 2009
GayPatriot
And if you don’t speak to this, I don’t want to hear you whining because you don’t get called for comment on Gay issues. Because you were silent on a major Gay news story.

@Tom in lazybrook,

I would suggest that surely by living in Texas there are problems with gay rights you have to sort out before you think on the international scale. Afterall you act like I am some minority view in Serbia which will be pushed aside by the victorious majority, where as I am in fact in the vast majority and voice that opinion, to think you and your activist friends can come and make changes to our country is an utter joke. The more I hear from you I in fact begin to laugh as opposed to get annoyed. And I have news for you about EU membership, trying to threaten Serbs by saying that we wont get EU membership if we dont kneel to your demands is only an incentive to continue holding the views that we do, because I have news for you, the vast majority of the Serbian population is against EU membership. Also you might want to hold back a little on your view of a gay pride parade next year, as we saw it was banned in 2009, authorised in 2010, but banned again in 2011, and there is a reason why, dont think that in a year or even many years Serbs will just change their minds.

So finally, you are free to voice your opinion, although I may hugely disagree I cannot stop you from saying something, however the second you try and change our laws when you are not even a Serbian citizen, you will be met with great anger if you ever step foot in Serbia.

So you speak of democracy and allowing gays to protest, yet when I speak my mind I am to be investigated and so on. People like you really make me sick with your double standards, typical of western liberal types like yourself. Heres a piece of advice, (and for the record I am a Serb) keep your noses in your own nations, for when you come to Serbia and try to tell Serbs how their society ought to be you are going to end up in much more danger than any gay person. There is nothing worse than someone from another country lecturing a society and a nation that has nothing to do with them.
(SCP UK, 20 October 2011 14:40)

You endorse judicial nullification of laws protecting Gays from violence and cheerlead (or worse) the banning of their unquestionable right to hold a Gay Pride Parade in their national capital, even if skinhead thugs in the police and the Orthodox Church don't want it. Free speech means free speech, even if you don't like it. You have the double standard, not I.

Thanks for your protestation that 'you really don't hate Gay people who don't ever assert themselves or demand redress of grievences'. I don't believe you.

However, you don't have a right to live/work/travel to other countries to promote views contrary to that governments'. And to cheerlead the violation of human rights. Or your support of the culture of impunity (fostered by your Internal Minstry and your police) which results in banning of Gay speech and stabbing of Gay people in your capital. Or your blaming Gay people for the violence as its their fault that they DARE speak up for themselves. Its not a double standard. You have free speech in your own nation (Serbia). Serbia can ban foreign Gays from entering their nation (like Russia - whose citizens have issues with visas). However, if they did so, they can kiss the Schengen goodbye. I don't have a right to a UK visa. Neither do you. You are a guest in their nation. You'd be wise to remember that and perhaps to ask yourself WHY you are in Britian right now (paying taxes to help NATO by the way). How does Serbia create an economy that allows for its' citizens to stay in Serbia? By having skinhead thugs run amok all over your capital without appropriate correction by your police and judciary? Extreme violence against religous and sexual minorities? Religious interference in the political framework? Basically, if one isn't straight, white, and Orthodox, you aren't welcome in Serbia (and you might be in physical danger. Do you think this is going to help foreign investment in Serbia?

SCP UK wrote: "Also you might want to hold back a little on your view of a gay pride parade next year, as we saw it was banned in 2009, authorised in 2010, but banned again in 2011, and there is a reason why, dont think that in a year or even many years Serbs will just change their minds."

Could you expand a bit on WHY it was "banned"?

Was it perhaps, because the Serbian state can not guarantee the safety of its citizens in the middle of the capital?

If that was the case, then I strongly suggest you direct your attention and ire at that issue. After all, pProviding safety for ALL its citizens is one of the fundamental things a state is about.

--
Jan Andersen (DK)

@Tom in lazybrook,

I would suggest that surely by living in Texas there are problems with gay rights you have to sort out before you think on the international scale. Afterall you act like I am some minority view in Serbia which will be pushed aside by the victorious majority, where as I am in fact in the vast majority and voice that opinion, to think you and your activist friends can come and make changes to our country is an utter joke. The more I hear from you I in fact begin to laugh as opposed to get annoyed. And I have news for you about EU membership, trying to threaten Serbs by saying that we wont get EU membership if we dont kneel to your demands is only an incentive to continue holding the views that we do, because I have news for you, the vast majority of the Serbian population is against EU membership. Also you might want to hold back a little on your view of a gay pride parade next year, as we saw it was banned in 2009, authorised in 2010, but banned again in 2011, and there is a reason why, dont think that in a year or even many years Serbs will just change their minds.

So finally, you are free to voice your opinion, although I may hugely disagree I cannot stop you from saying something, however the second you try and change our laws when you are not even a Serbian citizen, you will be met with great anger if you ever step foot in Serbia.
(SCP UK, 21 October 2011 14:40)

In Texas, like Serbia, we don't have Gay marriage. Unlike Serbia, Gay Texans are able to adovocate for our cause. We have massive Gay Pride Parades, the mayor of the largest city in Texas is an out lesbian, the sheriff of Dallas is a Lesbian, and out Gays serve as popularly elected officals in many cities and counties (even school boards) in the state. Every police force in Texas takes crimes against Gays seriously and in the infrequent cases where crimes occur, very long prision sentences are the rule. In Serbia, violence against Gays goes unpunished.

I understand that there are many Serbs, perhaps even a majority, that hate Gay people. That is irrelevant. Democracy only works when even those that are unpopular have the same rights to the public arena to make their arguments as they see fit. Even if you don't like what they have to say. It may also be the case that many Serbs may wish for the police to assualt Gay people or protect those that do simply due to animosity. That also is not consistent with basic human rights for minorities.

You don't understand. If Serbia isn't serious about change, I don't want them in the EU. Because having Serbia in the EU and in abrogation of their accession accords creates an opening for other Eastern European countries to abrogate their human rights obligations as well. I'm not threatening Serbia. I'm stating fact. No Gay Pride. No EU. No jail for those committing terrorist acts or terrorist threats against minorities. No EU. If Serbia chooses to pursue the Belarus model of government and economy, that's something that they can do. But they can't do it in the Council of Europe or the EU.

Justice delayed is justice denied. I suggest that in the event of a ban next year, that Parada Ponosa simply announce that they will apply for a Gay Pride Permit the next weekend. And keep doing so until Serbia allows it to go forward without violence (or arrests and jails with long sentences those committing violence against them).

I'm not asking or demanding that Serbia CHANGE their laws. I'm simply insisting that Serbia OBEY its own constitution and accession accords to the Council of Europe.

See you at Gay Pride Belgrade next year.

@Tom:

I appreciate your articulate passion on this matter.

However, you should realize, that for people like SCP "Serbia will never join the EU" is a rather impotent threat. People like SCP don't want Serbia to join the EU. They'd rather discriminate against gays than join the EU.

@Danilo, no my sense of humour is absolutely fine I just think yours is rather strange.

@Nenad, yeh so keeping people like me away as far as possible is really democractic isnt it. To suggest that this opinion of the Serbian people will just "change" is utterly naive. There is no way you can compare black slavery and the Holocaust with this issue, it is just a completely inappropriate and extreme comparison. With such an issue you cannot simply just change minds. In the countries where gay rights thrive is not to say that their populations suddenly at one point in time changed their minds over the issue, rather political correctness began to persecute people, so people whose opinions are against the issue are kept quiet, as is done in the UK where one can barely express patriotic or strong cultural views without having offended someone and thus ending up in court. Those who do "change their minds" are so fickle minded that they swallow BS from the media, and this media helps to influence children so they grow up thinking in such a way, thus often contradicting their parents' teachings. In a country like Serbia where culture is still very strong political correctness will not prevail, thus allowing western established gay rights organizations to fail.
(SCP UK, 19 October 2011 20:42)

Just so we're clear here. The protest is over a climate of extreme violence against Gay Serbs by Orthodox inspired skinheads. The police and judiciary in Serbia send the message that violence against Gays will be tolerated because they refuse to prosecute and jail (for any significant time period) anyone for violent attacks and terrorism against Gay Serbs. And don't think that its just Gays that are 'under the gun' in Belgrade. The Serbian Orthodox/Nationalist movement has a shopping list and a history of recent and extreme violence against a long list of ethnic/sexual minorities combined with official sanction of that violence in their nullification of basic protections for those groups.

Does Serbia today equate to Nazi Germany of 1942? No. It is no better than Alabama in 1960, however. Just like Alabama of 1960, there are people opposed to the violence and repression and brutality of the state/Church/Klan/nationalist/whites attempting to prevent minorities from exercising (very) basic civil rights. Those Serbs opposed to violent thuggery and sharia (albeit Orthodox Sharia) and police nullification of their duty should start to speak before Serbia gets more of a reputation that offends massive numbers of people in the larger world. And yes, the entire civilized democratic world is disgusted by violent attacks on Gays. You don't have to personally support homosexuality to be civilized. You have to support their right to speak and exist publically without discrimination and violence. Unfortunately, many in the Serbia power structure and their allied youth thugs haven't figured that out yet.

SCP UK is whining about persecution of Orthodoxers by Gays??? Because Serbia is being criticized because a group that cannot hold a peaceful march going 100 feet in a public park without being attacked by Orthodox thugs? Because people are getting stabbed on the streets simply for wearing a shirt saying "I support Gay rights"?

I think that SCP UK may be a potential threat to the Gay community in the UK and should be investigated by the Immigration Bureau. Not because he hates Gays, but because he apparently thinks that violence is an acceptable solution to those who engage in peaceful speech that he disagrees with.

-I'm glad to see the LGBT out there. Unfortunately, they've got a long and difficult battle ahead of them in Serbia, but they should keep fighting. Blacks were still slaves in the US up until 1863 and now we see a rather different picture. Jews were slaughtered in the millions 70 years ago but how many in Europe would support such a policy today?
Things change. One day, the world will come to its senses and accept people regardless of their sexual orientation. (nenad)-

Thanks Nenad, i appreciate yr support. the homophobes/ultra nationalists don't own the site/country/balkans. they just think they do.

it is really disgusting to defend homophobia and attacks ag. lgbt people based on "democratic, majority" principles. what a bizarre perversion of democratic values. they have no clue. minority rights are meaningless for them, and that is a friggin dangerous situation.

i pretty much compare the situation for lgbt people in the balkans to the 1950s in the US. Of course that is a gross generalization, and somewhat a-historic. but it is pretty backwards and reactionary, and also highly colored by conservative (Radical) religious principles, so to speak. what they call religion.
there is religion (the church), there is widespread prejudice, ever present threat (or reality) of violence, but... there is precious little conscience. a very dangerous situation.

anyway,i am so proud of our lgbt activists in serbia, who refuse to take no for an answer. such courage, in the face of such danger, oppression, indifference (at best.) they really deserve our greatest support.

as i've written many times, it is easy enough for us in the west to write, to fight (online), to protest (usually), but there it is always a threat to life and limb, esp.ly for lgbt people.

we will overcome, but it will take time and a LOT of work.

ciao! roberto frisco

SCP UK

So, That means that you're as Serbian as I am.