"Partition possible solution for Kosovo problem"

Since Serbs of the North desire partition, the Albanians of Presheva and Bujanov harbor no wish to be part of Serbia either. The same token should also apply there.

Adriatic, i fully agree with you. Also Krajina Serbs should get their land back, secede from Croatia, join republika Srpska, and then all together join Serbia.
All those states were formed by cleansing Serbs after all, isn't it?
Do you agree?

RS was created on the back of the biggest European massacre since WW2. so essentialy, you'd be rewarding genocide
(adriatik, 5 October 2011 13:51)

Kinda like Kosovo independence is rewarding terrorism?

Big No for partition of Kosovo. The whole Kosovo is a province of Serbia. The Kosovo Albanians can still have a special autonomous status or a Sub-State for their own but still under Serbia.

adriatik

Hey Einstein!

Presevo is a part of Serbia and not Kosovo. Let's partition the North of Kosovo first and then you can consider Presevo.

Better yer, why don't you go up there and take it from Serbia.

When your done taking Serbia's territory you can proceed with taking some of Montenegro's, Macedonia's and Greece.

I think that Albanians will soon be in the middle of a war with everyone of it's Balkan neighbours and this war will relocate many Albanians from europe.

Kosovo is under question and not other Serbia`s territory - make it clear to urself. We are currently not talking of albanian cleptoparasitism in other places...

Neither USA nor EU wants another Republica Srpska in the Balkans so nope you can forget about it. Borders will not change and if Serbs in northern Kosova get some sort of special status then Albanians in Presheva, Medvegja and Bujanoc must get same thing. Serbia should worry about Sandzak and Hungarians in northern Vojvodina instead of already lost battle with Kosova militarily and politically.

Adriatiku - so Gračanica, Štrpce, Novo Brdo, Parteš, Klokot, Ranilug and serbian historical heritage (Velika Hoča, Patriarchate of Peć, Visoki Dečani, Bogorodica Ljeviška) will also back to Serbia.

Adriatik - Do not compare the incomparable. While Serbia is a member state of the UN and the OSCE with defined and accordingly accepted and garantueed borders, Kosovo is a territory ruled in accordance with WSCR 1244 and its status not finally decided upon. Its shape and status needs to be clarified between Pristina and Belgrade - in negotiations facilitated by UN and EU. You may not like it and apparently it is difficult for you to understand it, but still some rules and regulations developed in the course of the process of civilization apply.

So why K-Alb should agree in something that they get nothing in return?
(Mirel from Albania, 5 October 2011 15:55)

Why is Serbia being asked/forced to agree to UDI when they will get nothing in return?

Since Serbs of the North desire partition, the Albanians of Presheva and Bujanov harbor no wish to be part of Serbia either. The same token should also apply there.
(adriatik, 5 October 2011 11:10)

Not gonna happen. The Presevo area of Serbia is not internationally disputed and is recognized by every single country in the world as being part of Serbia. Northern Kosovo, however is open to partition for exactly the reasons Presevo is not.

You guys should be happy with what you got.

The reality is Kosovo is far from a sovereign state. However, the reality also is that Serbia does not control 80% of Kosovo. Obviously there is a deadlock between Belgrade and Pristina. Serbia rules Northern Kosovo and a few Southern Serbian Enclaves which makes up about 20% of Kosovo and the Albanians have compelte authority over 80% of Kosovo. This deadlock is preventing both sides from moving on. Serbia wants to retain control of the Serbian Majority Enclaves and Holy Sites while Albanians want full independence for Kosovo. I believe partition is the only solution for breaking this deadlock, otherwise it will continue.
The partition of Kosovo should however not be limited to Northern Kosovo but should be extended to including the Serbian enclaves and holy sites in the south and also the presevo valley where Albanians are a majority.

I beleive Serbia should be allowed to keep 5 Enclaves under its Sovereingty and Territorial Integrity. They are:

1.Ibarski Kolasin: This would include Leposavic, Zvecan, Zubin Potok, and Northern Mitrovica
2.Metohija: This would include Gorazdevac, the Pec Patriarchate, Belo Polje, the area north and west of the city of Decani, and the Decani Monastery.
3. Gracanica: This would include the municipality of Gracanica and the Gazimestan Battlefield and parts of Obilic were Serbs lived before the 1999 exodus.
4. Sar Planina: This would include Strpce, the South eastern part of the municipality of Prizren, and the Serbian quarter of the city of Prizren.
5. Nov Brdo: THis would include the Novo Brdo municipality and Ranilug Municipality.

The Albanians should get full independence for the rest of Kosovo and have it recognized by Serbia fully. Kosovo would also recieve the entire Presevo municipality, half of the bujanovac municipality, and the small portion of medvedja where albanians make up the majority. The Albanians will also keep all of the major cities and mining/economic complexes in Kosovo.

This is a good plan because it allows Serbia to retain control of the Serbian enclaves and areas where the serbian IDPs can go back too. it also allows Serbia to retain control of its most important holy sites like the Pec Patriarchate, the Decani monastery, Gracanica Monastery, Bogordica Ljeviska, and the Gazimestan Battlefield. For the Albanians this is also a good plan. They keep all of the Albanian populated areas, all the major cities, and all of the economic/mining complexes. They also recieve the Presevo valley where Albanians live.

The deadlock needs to be broken, otherwise neither side willl get what they want. Serbia will not control all of Kosovo, and the Albanians will never legitimize Kosovo on the international stage.

adriatik-and RS joins Serbia and there we are (perhaps an informal confederation to start with). Shake hands and get on with improving the lives of our citizens. The religious and historical sites must be protected so the churches and graveyards are not desecrated anymore than they have been already. And Thaci goes to the Hague.

@PRO-SERBIA

We had self-rulender Serbia, you revoked it in 1989. now you want to give back what you took away eh? forget it, too late for that.

Presheva & Bujanova are the same principle. Serbs of Kosovo do not want to be part of the new state. Fine. Albanians of Presheva & Co have ZERO wish to be part of Serbia. so land swap.

RS to join with Serbia. bad idea. RS was created on the back of the biggest European massacre since WW2. so essentialy, you'd be rewarding genocide

Ben - With notorious criminals like Thaci, Ceku und Haradinaj as leaders Kosovo will never become member of the EU - neither of the UN and OSCE. And it will not be recognized by a majority of UN member states - neither by all EU countries. And as long as Kosovo is not a recognized state in the international community and its institutions as aforementioned you cannot compare it to internationally recognized states like Serbia or Macedonia. Will you ever understand? So,if you want to move yourself even further away from your dreams just continue to threaten with your gunmen in "Kosova", Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro - and vote by majority again and again for mafiosi and war criminals and continue to erect monuments of terrorists and war lords at each corner of "Kosova". Thanks God more and more Europeans are soooo tired of all of this...

Adriatic,
RS was built on the deaths of 4,000 children and women innocent victims in the srebrenica/bratunac region, whose butcher Naser Oric is free (or selling . That is true.
By your logic, Serbia should get Bosnia and Croatia as well.

RS to join with Serbia. bad idea. RS was created on the back of the biggest European massacre since WW2. so essentialy, you'd be rewarding genocide
(adriatik, 5 October 2011 13:51)

LOL and what then are we rewarding Albanians with "Presheva"? Laziness? Failed uprising? No no my diaspora friend, the topic is Kosovo. Not Presevo, not Sandzak, not Vojvodina, not RS, and not even Northern Epirus. It's Kosovo, why? Because as everyone has been saying for years, Kosovo is a "sui generis" case :)

No new borders? I agree. Then the West must immediatelly stop illegal (yes, illegal) Kosovo 'independence'.

No double standards!

No contry questions Serbia suverenity, while Kosovo isn't recognized as independent state by majority of world countries.
(aaayyy, 5 October 2011 17:36)

That's not correct. 80+ countries have said they recognize Kosovo's independence. About 20 have said they don't recognize Kosovo's independence. About 90 have not said anything.
(icj1, 6 October 2011 02:56)

Those countries which haven't said anything, haven't recognized Kosovo by default.

think that Albanians will soon be in the middle of a war with everyone of it's Balkan neighbours and this war will relocate many Albanians from europe.
(Another Canadina Serb, 5 October 2011 12:31)


A.C.S.,

Is that why you ended up in Canada?

Presheva & Bujanova are the same principle. Serbs of Kosovo do not want to be part of the new state. Fine. Albanians of Presheva & Co have ZERO wish to be part of Serbia. so land swap.

(adriatik, 5 October 2011 13:51)

You speak as if Serbia and so called independent Kosovo have got the same status, but their statuses are different. No contry questions Serbia suverenity, while Kosovo isn't recognized as independent state by majority of world countries.

The best solution is for Kosovo to have autonomy under 1244.

In my view, 1244 is in the breach because of the udi and Serbia therefore has the legal right to re-invade and regain its own territory at some stage. That cannot happen for a long time I agree, but Serbia will not therefore give up on the possibility of eventually regaining control over its own province. There is no guarantee that the international protection will be there forever. The future is a long time. Things will break one day.

The logic is very simple: there are problems in north Kosova so Kosova needs to be partitioned.

Now Alabanins in Presheva valley need to create problems to Serbia as Serbs are doing to Kosova so Serbia can be partitioned as well.

Same applies to Macedonia: Albanians should quit their loyalty to Macedonia and behave as Serbs in north Kosova.

This is what EU is saying and we all want to be part of EU. Draskovic is right.

Swaps of territory can be negotiated between two sovereign states. It happens all the time, although mostly at a much smaller scale (some hectars here, some hectars there...) and not involving populations. However, if Serbia and Kosovo mutually agree on a land swap, who could contradict? But yes, Belgrade must then be prepared to speak to - and finally recognise - the authorities in Pristina.

The Count of Kosova

I was born and raised in Canada.

My parents left Serbia in 1965 because there were too many Albanians moving into Yugoslavia.

"We had self-rulender Serbia, you revoked it in 1989. now you want to give back what you took away eh? forget it, too late for that."

Which albanians used to ethincally cleanse serbs and carry out a demographic war. Funny how albanian births have dropped off since NATO came to your rescue. BTW, Kosovo's status was decreased from 'autonomous' to 'semi-autonomous', it was not 'abolished'.

As for swaps of land, it would only encourage the albanians to take more and without a doubt make demands on FYROM, like a fat kid in a sweet shop.

icj-correct me if Im wrong. The ICJ declared that declaring independence is not illegal. So the North can declare independence as well.

"The Austrian politician is convinced that the delineation of new frontiers in Kosovo and Metohija would not pose new problems for the region, but, as he put it, if everyone agrees on the matter, it would additionally and permanently stabilize the Balkans."

An agreed partition is the best option for this mess, together with full recognition of the remaining parts of Kosovo as an own state by Serbia (which implies that all other states in the world who refuse to recognize an UDI-created Kosovo would recognize Kosovo, too). A problem could be the worsening situation for the remaining Serbs in the southern enclaves, but that issue should be dealt with in connection with the Albanian minorities in Presevo. In the worst case scenario, a population/area swap could happen between Presevo and the southern enclaves in Kosovo, after the north remains/(re-)joins Serbia.

The problem is that all the serb politicans(except Jovanivich) are saying that even if they get the North or exchange territory with Kosova,Serbia never will recognise Kosova.

Serbia Constitution defines Kosova as integral part of Serbia.

So why K-Alb should agree in something that they get nothing in return?

As I have said here before, a 3 way partition is another option.

1. To Crna Gora - Pec and Decani
2. Serbia retakes the north and Mitrovica
3. Albania takes the rest and bilateral agreement with Belgrade on holy sites and status of minorities overseen by both governments and UN/EU.

While I read the comments from Serbian fellows in this forum, I can realise that unfortunately, there is no change between them and Slobodan stances when it comes to Kosova.
As Milosevic in 1989 refuzed to accept the reality on the ground and strip albanians the authonomy and refuse to give it back,he lost all the support he had in the West and albanians rushed and got the support from former Serbian supporters.Also if he could have offered to albanians the partition of Kosovo I am pretty sure that they will accepted that, and a war and thousands of lifes would be saved.
Today, we have the same story,serbs refuze to accept that Kosova is a de facto a state and continue to stall and make K-Alb lifes more difficult.Instead of offering to albanians a swap of territories with the condition of formal recognision of Kosova,they are telling different stories,Tadic,Jeremic,Dacic,Kostunica or Nikolic are talking like kids and not like farsighted politicians.There offers varies from ingnore all Albanians(Kostunica) to partition(Dacic and Tadic),but even those dont offer a formal recognision of Kosova after the partition but they say Never.Furthermore, to close everything that can bring a compromise they put in the Constitution that Kosova is integral part of Serbia and living NO ROOM for a real compromise.
My advice to serbians:
First change the Constitution, than you can talk to albanians about e real or "creative" lasting solution.Till than, sorry but every attempt for negotiations will fail.

Swaps of territory can be negotiated between two sovereign states. It happens all the time, although mostly at a much smaller scale (some hectars here, some hectars there...) and not involving populations. However, if Serbia and Kosovo mutually agree on a land swap, who could contradict? But yes, Belgrade must then be prepared to speak to - and finally recognise - the authorities in Pristina.
(Tinka, 5 October 2011 15:42)

If Serbia recognizes Kosovo now as a whole as sovereign state then which motivation will Prishtina have to negotiate Kosovo partition?
But Serbia can negotiate Kosovo partition as a condition of kosovo recognition.

There is a low - if region in the process of separation has got compact enclaves which don't want to separate it has right to stay within its original state.

serbia and so-called independent Kosovo don't have the same state - all of the world countries recognized Serbia, while the majority of world community doesn't recognize Kosovo. Yes, US and a lot of European countries did recognize, but let me inform you that there are a lot of other countries in the world.

adriatik..you mean Germany should not have been reunited because of the actual/ factual genocide of WW2? I don't recall genocide conviction against Serbia for that matter or RS? From what I recall, some convictions against a few individuals of crimes against humanity if we want to be technical about it. To bad you had to many gay Dutch soldiers defending the bosnian army, obviously it didn't work out to well.

Back to the point of Germany, here you have a country which gas, slaughtered, murdered, cleansed.. 6 million jews, 20 million Russians, 1 million Serbs, 3 million Polish and countless others? Yet, after only 60, seems like you have conveniently forgotten what TRUE genocide really is? Oh ya, let's not forget, Croatia was the right hand extension of Father Adolf in the Balkans, lusting in the murder of Serbs and non croats. Yet, the killing of 6,000 muslim soldiers who lost in a battle is tearing out you soul...boo hoo. Get over it. At least we seperated the male terrorists from women and children...those croat and german buddies of yours didn't care and slaughterd any and all.

So YES, Repbulic or Srpska should eventually be independent, and hopefull join with Serbia as GREATER SERBIA, to offset albanian and mulsim expansionism in southern Europe.

@Rose-tinted History

Total and utter garbage. Read ANY and I do mean ANY book on the history of Kosovo written by a non Serb or a non Albanian and they ALL assert that Kosovo was a majority Albanian populated area for at least the last 300 years. Its odd to me how collectively brainwashed the Serb contributers of this forum are. Some even believe that Kosovo was 90% until 1942!!!! Even time travel couldn't cure you, thats how indoctrinated you all are.

Put it this way, Kosovo Independence has been recognized by the US, EU, Australia, Canada (Hello Canadian Serb) and all the countries that share cultural and political values that can be termed WESTERN. With this recongition has come the VALIDITY of the current Kosovo borders as well. So guess what, land swaps WILL have to be agreed with Prishtina, whether you on thsese forums like it or not. So its either Presheva or nothing.

As I have said here before, a 3 way partition is another option.

1. To Crna Gora - Pec and Decani
2. Serbia retakes the north and Mitrovica
3. Albania takes the rest and bilateral agreement with Belgrade on holy sites and status of minorities overseen by both governments and UN/EU.
(Niall O'Doherty, 5 October 2011 17:41)


Umm Mr. Nial or whatever your Serbian name actually is,

If Pec and Decani regions goes to Montenegro as you say, then the whole MN demographics will change. There's over 250k+ Albanians in that district. If it went to MN then over 30% of MN will be Albanian. It will be another Macedonia where a lot of policies are dictated by Albanians. You think they want that? So stop with your possible senseless scenarios.

"The logic is very simple: there are problems in north Kosova so Kosova needs to be partitioned.
Now Alabanins in Presheva valley need to create problems to Serbia as Serbs are doing to Kosova so Serbia can be partitioned as well.
...
This is what EU is saying and we all want to be part of EU. Draskovic is right."

(ben, 5 October 2011 15:33)
Yes, it sounds very simple, but exactly by that simple logic, Serbia has been partitioned and Kosovo has been created.

Those countries which haven't said anything, haven't recognized Kosovo by default.
(aaayyy, 6 October 2011 18:54)
=======================
Do you know how many ties I have said the same thing here but the Albanians are still repeating the same old c**p.
It's like when you are going for a loan at the bank. You haven't been approved but you are boasting of how you bought that house.
If there is no YES then you must treat it as a NO.

You are wasting your time trying to explain this. Nobody on the Albanian side is capable of understanding it.

The current situation in Kosovo won't change. Agree to status quo and move on. Serbs still loose since the entire Kosovo province is Serbian land but it will be more acceptable then haveing Albanians invade northern Kosovo.

Total and utter garbage. Read ANY and I do mean ANY book on the history of Kosovo written by a non Serb or a non Albanian and they ALL assert that Kosovo was a majority Albanian populated area for at least the last 300 years. Its odd to me how collectively brainwashed the Serb contributers of this forum are. Some even believe that Kosovo was 90% until 1942!!!! Even time travel couldn't cure you, thats how indoctrinated you all are.
(adriatik, 5 October 2011 22:07)


Don't waste your time... That is similar to the propoganda about Kosovo's UDI being a violation of 1244. Serbs believed that repeating it ad nauseam for 2 years would actually make it true but then they got a rude awakening from the ICJ.

@adriatik - That was Milosevic's time. Milosevic is gone already. for sure not all Serbs agree on what he had done in the past. the point is The Kosovo Albanians will never win a UN seat and even an EU Seat. that's why there should be a Win-Win solution. Kosovo Albanian areas of Kosovo province can be a "Sub-State" of Serbia. which will enjoy genuine autonomy. hahahaah Presevo and Bujanovic is a different case and must not be link to Kosovo.

but let me inform you that there are a lot of other countries in the world.
(aaayyy, 5 October 2011 18:00)

Of course, but the last time I checked Serbia was still in Europe... Not sure if it moved in Africa recently :)
(icj1, 6 October 2011 02:58)

So what? The fact that Spain, Slovakia, Greece haven't recognized Kosovo is more important for Serbia than US not recognizing Kosovo, was it your point?

If i were the Kalbs, i would be looking to cut a deal asap. I think the tide is slowly turning. The Americans are fed up, the EU are broke, China and Russia are beginning to assert themselves (rightfully) at the UN and the recognitions have just not come. Everyone in the intl community wants there to be a deal, except those who got us into this almighty mess from the start. Let's partition and get on with our lives. Who knows, over time, we may even be able to converse in a civilised manner.

Anonymous-what you smokin'?

Adriatic, i fully agree with you. Also Krajina Serbs should get their land back, secede from Croatia, join republika Srpska, and then all together join Serbia.
All those states were formed by cleansing Serbs after all, isn't it?
Do you agree?
(Pyrros, 5 October 2011 11:54)


Absolutely! If you want, you can also take Hungary, Bulgaria and Slovenia.... Albanians in Kosovo couldn't care less

Didn't the west and Albania argue that Kosovo is a unique case? If so, how can they now make the argument that if Kosovo disintegrates, then Preshevo, or other parts will/ should too?

Never mentioned the last 300 years, since 1945 will do. The population censuses are there for all to read. Typical albanian, responds with an answer to a different question than the one posed and makes the rest of it up. In some ways it is sad that you all didn't live under Enver Hoxa instead in his paradise. Instead, it is a professional career of benefit fraud.

No contry questions Serbia suverenity, while Kosovo isn't recognized as independent state by majority of world countries.
(aaayyy, 5 October 2011 17:36)

That's not correct. 80+ countries have said they recognize Kosovo's independence. About 20 have said they don't recognize Kosovo's independence. About 90 have not said anything.

alban- i disagree. China IS unhappy with the way Serbia has been treated by NATO. I would never presume that Kosovo is a priority for them, but they are not as platonic as you would like to believe. As they have grown richer, the Chinese have begun to express their frustration with western meddling in other countries affairs and Serbia is a part of that. They would not go to war over kosovo certainly, but there are other ways they can support Serbia, and they are doing it.

but let me inform you that there are a lot of other countries in the world.
(aaayyy, 5 October 2011 18:00)

Of course, but the last time I checked Serbia was still in Europe... Not sure if it moved in Africa recently :)

Let's say there is a swap in territory, who gets the name?
Does what is being let go remain Kosovo or the part which remains with Serbia?
Who is going to claim the name or are we going to have the same situation as Macdonia-Greece argument?

"China is unhappy at the way Serbia has been treated is it? Why? Do the Chinese share a cultural bond the Serbs? Is it because China has designs in the Balkans? Chinese trade with the US is or far more importance to them then Serbia's grievance over Kosovo. It's the same thing for the US incidentally. They care more about their relationship with China than they ever will about Albanians in Kosovo...with good reason too"
(adriatik, 7 October 2011 12:50)

Kosovo with its not even 2 million people is a flyspeck on the global map. The problem China as well as several other countries have with Kosovo is the acceptance of a unilateral change of borders by some ethnic minorities - nothing more, nothing less. It's not about care for Serbia. And unlike some supporters of conspriacy theries think, Camp Bondsteel is a flyspeck on the map of US bases, too.

Why is Serbia being asked/forced to agree to UDI when they will get nothing in return?
(UK, 5 October 2011 18:50)

Well, then don't agree. So Kosovo will not have the recognition of Serbia, the same way it does not have the recognition of, say, Vietnam.

Aura

You overestimate how much China cares about Kosovo. Allow me to tell you, it cares very little for it

Nothing i can say to you other than we'll have to agree to disagree. China is unhappy at the way Serbia has been treated is it? Why? Do the Chinese share a cultural bond the Serbs? Is it because China has designs in the Balkans? Chinese trade with the US is or far more importance to them then Serbia's grievance over Kosovo. It's the same thing for the US incidentally. They care more about their relationship with China than they ever will about Albanians in Kosovo...with good reason too

No new borders? I agree. Then the West must immediatelly stop illegal (yes, illegal) Kosovo 'independence'.

No double standards!
(Ron, 6 October 2011 14:08)

Illegal according to what law ?

icj-correct me if Im wrong. The ICJ declared that declaring independence is not illegal. So the North can declare independence as well.
(Aura, 6 October 2011 18:16)

Well, you forgot some details - the ICJ did not make that sweeping opinion. The ICJ said something much more specific. It said that it was not illegal for a specific entity (Kosovo) to declare independence on a specific date (18 Feb. 2008). It did not say anything about Kosovo's UDI of 1991 or the, eventual, N. Kosovo UDI or for the UDI of anybody else.

the reason for that is that the international law that applies to the N. Kosovo is slightly different and it very possible that a N. Kosovo UDI is illegal under international law because the applicable norms are different.

Those countries which haven't said anything, haven't recognized Kosovo by default.
(aaayyy, 6 October 2011 18:54)

How do you know that ? If we ask a country "do you recognize Kosovo still as part of Serbia ?" and they don't say anything, should we take that as a "Yes" or a "No" or a nothing ?

That's why Serbia continues to loose because it makes false assumptions...

If there is no YES then you must treat it as a NO.

You are wasting your time trying to explain this. Nobody on the Albanian side is capable of understanding it.
(Peggy, 6 October 2011 22:08)

So Peggy, according to you, if we ask a country "do you recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia?" and they don't say anything, then we must treat it as a "No". That's great... I think Albanians in Kosovo would fully agree with you Peggy :)

China and Russia are beginning to assert themselves (rightfully) at the UN and the recognitions have just not come.
(Aura, 7 October 2011 11:15)

Good for them... (even though don't tell that to Russian and the Chinese because they would be offended - they think they were always major players at the UN)

Not sure though what that has to do with Kosovo or the topic being discussed here ?!

Since Serbs of the North desire partition, the Albanians of Presheva and Bujanov harbor no wish to be part of Serbia either. The same token should also apply there.

but let me inform you that there are a lot of other countries in the world.
(aaayyy, 5 October 2011 18:00)

Of course, but the last time I checked Serbia was still in Europe... Not sure if it moved in Africa recently :)

Why is Serbia being asked/forced to agree to UDI when they will get nothing in return?
(UK, 5 October 2011 18:50)

Well, then don't agree. So Kosovo will not have the recognition of Serbia, the same way it does not have the recognition of, say, Vietnam.

Big No for partition of Kosovo. The whole Kosovo is a province of Serbia. The Kosovo Albanians can still have a special autonomous status or a Sub-State for their own but still under Serbia.

but let me inform you that there are a lot of other countries in the world.
(aaayyy, 5 October 2011 18:00)

Of course, but the last time I checked Serbia was still in Europe... Not sure if it moved in Africa recently :)
(icj1, 6 October 2011 02:58)

So what? The fact that Spain, Slovakia, Greece haven't recognized Kosovo is more important for Serbia than US not recognizing Kosovo, was it your point?

Neither USA nor EU wants another Republica Srpska in the Balkans so nope you can forget about it. Borders will not change and if Serbs in northern Kosova get some sort of special status then Albanians in Presheva, Medvegja and Bujanoc must get same thing. Serbia should worry about Sandzak and Hungarians in northern Vojvodina instead of already lost battle with Kosova militarily and politically.

adriatik

Hey Einstein!

Presevo is a part of Serbia and not Kosovo. Let's partition the North of Kosovo first and then you can consider Presevo.

Better yer, why don't you go up there and take it from Serbia.

When your done taking Serbia's territory you can proceed with taking some of Montenegro's, Macedonia's and Greece.

I think that Albanians will soon be in the middle of a war with everyone of it's Balkan neighbours and this war will relocate many Albanians from europe.

@PRO-SERBIA

We had self-rulender Serbia, you revoked it in 1989. now you want to give back what you took away eh? forget it, too late for that.

Presheva & Bujanova are the same principle. Serbs of Kosovo do not want to be part of the new state. Fine. Albanians of Presheva & Co have ZERO wish to be part of Serbia. so land swap.

RS to join with Serbia. bad idea. RS was created on the back of the biggest European massacre since WW2. so essentialy, you'd be rewarding genocide

While I read the comments from Serbian fellows in this forum, I can realise that unfortunately, there is no change between them and Slobodan stances when it comes to Kosova.
As Milosevic in 1989 refuzed to accept the reality on the ground and strip albanians the authonomy and refuse to give it back,he lost all the support he had in the West and albanians rushed and got the support from former Serbian supporters.Also if he could have offered to albanians the partition of Kosovo I am pretty sure that they will accepted that, and a war and thousands of lifes would be saved.
Today, we have the same story,serbs refuze to accept that Kosova is a de facto a state and continue to stall and make K-Alb lifes more difficult.Instead of offering to albanians a swap of territories with the condition of formal recognision of Kosova,they are telling different stories,Tadic,Jeremic,Dacic,Kostunica or Nikolic are talking like kids and not like farsighted politicians.There offers varies from ingnore all Albanians(Kostunica) to partition(Dacic and Tadic),but even those dont offer a formal recognision of Kosova after the partition but they say Never.Furthermore, to close everything that can bring a compromise they put in the Constitution that Kosova is integral part of Serbia and living NO ROOM for a real compromise.
My advice to serbians:
First change the Constitution, than you can talk to albanians about e real or "creative" lasting solution.Till than, sorry but every attempt for negotiations will fail.

RS was created on the back of the biggest European massacre since WW2. so essentialy, you'd be rewarding genocide
(adriatik, 5 October 2011 13:51)

Kinda like Kosovo independence is rewarding terrorism?

Kosovo is under question and not other Serbia`s territory - make it clear to urself. We are currently not talking of albanian cleptoparasitism in other places...

Adriatik - Do not compare the incomparable. While Serbia is a member state of the UN and the OSCE with defined and accordingly accepted and garantueed borders, Kosovo is a territory ruled in accordance with WSCR 1244 and its status not finally decided upon. Its shape and status needs to be clarified between Pristina and Belgrade - in negotiations facilitated by UN and EU. You may not like it and apparently it is difficult for you to understand it, but still some rules and regulations developed in the course of the process of civilization apply.

Adriatic,
RS was built on the deaths of 4,000 children and women innocent victims in the srebrenica/bratunac region, whose butcher Naser Oric is free (or selling . That is true.
By your logic, Serbia should get Bosnia and Croatia as well.

adriatik-and RS joins Serbia and there we are (perhaps an informal confederation to start with). Shake hands and get on with improving the lives of our citizens. The religious and historical sites must be protected so the churches and graveyards are not desecrated anymore than they have been already. And Thaci goes to the Hague.

No contry questions Serbia suverenity, while Kosovo isn't recognized as independent state by majority of world countries.
(aaayyy, 5 October 2011 17:36)

That's not correct. 80+ countries have said they recognize Kosovo's independence. About 20 have said they don't recognize Kosovo's independence. About 90 have not said anything.

Total and utter garbage. Read ANY and I do mean ANY book on the history of Kosovo written by a non Serb or a non Albanian and they ALL assert that Kosovo was a majority Albanian populated area for at least the last 300 years. Its odd to me how collectively brainwashed the Serb contributers of this forum are. Some even believe that Kosovo was 90% until 1942!!!! Even time travel couldn't cure you, thats how indoctrinated you all are.
(adriatik, 5 October 2011 22:07)


Don't waste your time... That is similar to the propoganda about Kosovo's UDI being a violation of 1244. Serbs believed that repeating it ad nauseam for 2 years would actually make it true but then they got a rude awakening from the ICJ.

The logic is very simple: there are problems in north Kosova so Kosova needs to be partitioned.

Now Alabanins in Presheva valley need to create problems to Serbia as Serbs are doing to Kosova so Serbia can be partitioned as well.

Same applies to Macedonia: Albanians should quit their loyalty to Macedonia and behave as Serbs in north Kosova.

This is what EU is saying and we all want to be part of EU. Draskovic is right.

Adriatic, i fully agree with you. Also Krajina Serbs should get their land back, secede from Croatia, join republika Srpska, and then all together join Serbia.
All those states were formed by cleansing Serbs after all, isn't it?
Do you agree?

think that Albanians will soon be in the middle of a war with everyone of it's Balkan neighbours and this war will relocate many Albanians from europe.
(Another Canadina Serb, 5 October 2011 12:31)


A.C.S.,

Is that why you ended up in Canada?

The Count of Kosova

I was born and raised in Canada.

My parents left Serbia in 1965 because there were too many Albanians moving into Yugoslavia.

Anonymous-what you smokin'?

Since Serbs of the North desire partition, the Albanians of Presheva and Bujanov harbor no wish to be part of Serbia either. The same token should also apply there.
(adriatik, 5 October 2011 11:10)

Not gonna happen. The Presevo area of Serbia is not internationally disputed and is recognized by every single country in the world as being part of Serbia. Northern Kosovo, however is open to partition for exactly the reasons Presevo is not.

You guys should be happy with what you got.

"The Austrian politician is convinced that the delineation of new frontiers in Kosovo and Metohija would not pose new problems for the region, but, as he put it, if everyone agrees on the matter, it would additionally and permanently stabilize the Balkans."

An agreed partition is the best option for this mess, together with full recognition of the remaining parts of Kosovo as an own state by Serbia (which implies that all other states in the world who refuse to recognize an UDI-created Kosovo would recognize Kosovo, too). A problem could be the worsening situation for the remaining Serbs in the southern enclaves, but that issue should be dealt with in connection with the Albanian minorities in Presevo. In the worst case scenario, a population/area swap could happen between Presevo and the southern enclaves in Kosovo, after the north remains/(re-)joins Serbia.

RS to join with Serbia. bad idea. RS was created on the back of the biggest European massacre since WW2. so essentialy, you'd be rewarding genocide
(adriatik, 5 October 2011 13:51)

LOL and what then are we rewarding Albanians with "Presheva"? Laziness? Failed uprising? No no my diaspora friend, the topic is Kosovo. Not Presevo, not Sandzak, not Vojvodina, not RS, and not even Northern Epirus. It's Kosovo, why? Because as everyone has been saying for years, Kosovo is a "sui generis" case :)

The problem is that all the serb politicans(except Jovanivich) are saying that even if they get the North or exchange territory with Kosova,Serbia never will recognise Kosova.

Serbia Constitution defines Kosova as integral part of Serbia.

So why K-Alb should agree in something that they get nothing in return?

Ben - With notorious criminals like Thaci, Ceku und Haradinaj as leaders Kosovo will never become member of the EU - neither of the UN and OSCE. And it will not be recognized by a majority of UN member states - neither by all EU countries. And as long as Kosovo is not a recognized state in the international community and its institutions as aforementioned you cannot compare it to internationally recognized states like Serbia or Macedonia. Will you ever understand? So,if you want to move yourself even further away from your dreams just continue to threaten with your gunmen in "Kosova", Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro - and vote by majority again and again for mafiosi and war criminals and continue to erect monuments of terrorists and war lords at each corner of "Kosova". Thanks God more and more Europeans are soooo tired of all of this...

Adriatiku - so Gračanica, Štrpce, Novo Brdo, Parteš, Klokot, Ranilug and serbian historical heritage (Velika Hoča, Patriarchate of Peć, Visoki Dečani, Bogorodica Ljeviška) will also back to Serbia.

@Rose-tinted History

Total and utter garbage. Read ANY and I do mean ANY book on the history of Kosovo written by a non Serb or a non Albanian and they ALL assert that Kosovo was a majority Albanian populated area for at least the last 300 years. Its odd to me how collectively brainwashed the Serb contributers of this forum are. Some even believe that Kosovo was 90% until 1942!!!! Even time travel couldn't cure you, thats how indoctrinated you all are.

Put it this way, Kosovo Independence has been recognized by the US, EU, Australia, Canada (Hello Canadian Serb) and all the countries that share cultural and political values that can be termed WESTERN. With this recongition has come the VALIDITY of the current Kosovo borders as well. So guess what, land swaps WILL have to be agreed with Prishtina, whether you on thsese forums like it or not. So its either Presheva or nothing.

Swaps of territory can be negotiated between two sovereign states. It happens all the time, although mostly at a much smaller scale (some hectars here, some hectars there...) and not involving populations. However, if Serbia and Kosovo mutually agree on a land swap, who could contradict? But yes, Belgrade must then be prepared to speak to - and finally recognise - the authorities in Pristina.

As I have said here before, a 3 way partition is another option.

1. To Crna Gora - Pec and Decani
2. Serbia retakes the north and Mitrovica
3. Albania takes the rest and bilateral agreement with Belgrade on holy sites and status of minorities overseen by both governments and UN/EU.

adriatik..you mean Germany should not have been reunited because of the actual/ factual genocide of WW2? I don't recall genocide conviction against Serbia for that matter or RS? From what I recall, some convictions against a few individuals of crimes against humanity if we want to be technical about it. To bad you had to many gay Dutch soldiers defending the bosnian army, obviously it didn't work out to well.

Back to the point of Germany, here you have a country which gas, slaughtered, murdered, cleansed.. 6 million jews, 20 million Russians, 1 million Serbs, 3 million Polish and countless others? Yet, after only 60, seems like you have conveniently forgotten what TRUE genocide really is? Oh ya, let's not forget, Croatia was the right hand extension of Father Adolf in the Balkans, lusting in the murder of Serbs and non croats. Yet, the killing of 6,000 muslim soldiers who lost in a battle is tearing out you soul...boo hoo. Get over it. At least we seperated the male terrorists from women and children...those croat and german buddies of yours didn't care and slaughterd any and all.

So YES, Repbulic or Srpska should eventually be independent, and hopefull join with Serbia as GREATER SERBIA, to offset albanian and mulsim expansionism in southern Europe.

Adriatic, i fully agree with you. Also Krajina Serbs should get their land back, secede from Croatia, join republika Srpska, and then all together join Serbia.
All those states were formed by cleansing Serbs after all, isn't it?
Do you agree?
(Pyrros, 5 October 2011 11:54)


Absolutely! If you want, you can also take Hungary, Bulgaria and Slovenia.... Albanians in Kosovo couldn't care less

"We had self-rulender Serbia, you revoked it in 1989. now you want to give back what you took away eh? forget it, too late for that."

Which albanians used to ethincally cleanse serbs and carry out a demographic war. Funny how albanian births have dropped off since NATO came to your rescue. BTW, Kosovo's status was decreased from 'autonomous' to 'semi-autonomous', it was not 'abolished'.

As for swaps of land, it would only encourage the albanians to take more and without a doubt make demands on FYROM, like a fat kid in a sweet shop.

So why K-Alb should agree in something that they get nothing in return?
(Mirel from Albania, 5 October 2011 15:55)

Why is Serbia being asked/forced to agree to UDI when they will get nothing in return?

Presheva & Bujanova are the same principle. Serbs of Kosovo do not want to be part of the new state. Fine. Albanians of Presheva & Co have ZERO wish to be part of Serbia. so land swap.

(adriatik, 5 October 2011 13:51)

You speak as if Serbia and so called independent Kosovo have got the same status, but their statuses are different. No contry questions Serbia suverenity, while Kosovo isn't recognized as independent state by majority of world countries.

Swaps of territory can be negotiated between two sovereign states. It happens all the time, although mostly at a much smaller scale (some hectars here, some hectars there...) and not involving populations. However, if Serbia and Kosovo mutually agree on a land swap, who could contradict? But yes, Belgrade must then be prepared to speak to - and finally recognise - the authorities in Pristina.
(Tinka, 5 October 2011 15:42)

If Serbia recognizes Kosovo now as a whole as sovereign state then which motivation will Prishtina have to negotiate Kosovo partition?
But Serbia can negotiate Kosovo partition as a condition of kosovo recognition.

There is a low - if region in the process of separation has got compact enclaves which don't want to separate it has right to stay within its original state.

serbia and so-called independent Kosovo don't have the same state - all of the world countries recognized Serbia, while the majority of world community doesn't recognize Kosovo. Yes, US and a lot of European countries did recognize, but let me inform you that there are a lot of other countries in the world.

The reality is Kosovo is far from a sovereign state. However, the reality also is that Serbia does not control 80% of Kosovo. Obviously there is a deadlock between Belgrade and Pristina. Serbia rules Northern Kosovo and a few Southern Serbian Enclaves which makes up about 20% of Kosovo and the Albanians have compelte authority over 80% of Kosovo. This deadlock is preventing both sides from moving on. Serbia wants to retain control of the Serbian Majority Enclaves and Holy Sites while Albanians want full independence for Kosovo. I believe partition is the only solution for breaking this deadlock, otherwise it will continue.
The partition of Kosovo should however not be limited to Northern Kosovo but should be extended to including the Serbian enclaves and holy sites in the south and also the presevo valley where Albanians are a majority.

I beleive Serbia should be allowed to keep 5 Enclaves under its Sovereingty and Territorial Integrity. They are:

1.Ibarski Kolasin: This would include Leposavic, Zvecan, Zubin Potok, and Northern Mitrovica
2.Metohija: This would include Gorazdevac, the Pec Patriarchate, Belo Polje, the area north and west of the city of Decani, and the Decani Monastery.
3. Gracanica: This would include the municipality of Gracanica and the Gazimestan Battlefield and parts of Obilic were Serbs lived before the 1999 exodus.
4. Sar Planina: This would include Strpce, the South eastern part of the municipality of Prizren, and the Serbian quarter of the city of Prizren.
5. Nov Brdo: THis would include the Novo Brdo municipality and Ranilug Municipality.

The Albanians should get full independence for the rest of Kosovo and have it recognized by Serbia fully. Kosovo would also recieve the entire Presevo municipality, half of the bujanovac municipality, and the small portion of medvedja where albanians make up the majority. The Albanians will also keep all of the major cities and mining/economic complexes in Kosovo.

This is a good plan because it allows Serbia to retain control of the Serbian enclaves and areas where the serbian IDPs can go back too. it also allows Serbia to retain control of its most important holy sites like the Pec Patriarchate, the Decani monastery, Gracanica Monastery, Bogordica Ljeviska, and the Gazimestan Battlefield. For the Albanians this is also a good plan. They keep all of the Albanian populated areas, all the major cities, and all of the economic/mining complexes. They also recieve the Presevo valley where Albanians live.

The deadlock needs to be broken, otherwise neither side willl get what they want. Serbia will not control all of Kosovo, and the Albanians will never legitimize Kosovo on the international stage.

@adriatik - That was Milosevic's time. Milosevic is gone already. for sure not all Serbs agree on what he had done in the past. the point is The Kosovo Albanians will never win a UN seat and even an EU Seat. that's why there should be a Win-Win solution. Kosovo Albanian areas of Kosovo province can be a "Sub-State" of Serbia. which will enjoy genuine autonomy. hahahaah Presevo and Bujanovic is a different case and must not be link to Kosovo.

The current situation in Kosovo won't change. Agree to status quo and move on. Serbs still loose since the entire Kosovo province is Serbian land but it will be more acceptable then haveing Albanians invade northern Kosovo.

Didn't the west and Albania argue that Kosovo is a unique case? If so, how can they now make the argument that if Kosovo disintegrates, then Preshevo, or other parts will/ should too?

As I have said here before, a 3 way partition is another option.

1. To Crna Gora - Pec and Decani
2. Serbia retakes the north and Mitrovica
3. Albania takes the rest and bilateral agreement with Belgrade on holy sites and status of minorities overseen by both governments and UN/EU.
(Niall O'Doherty, 5 October 2011 17:41)


Umm Mr. Nial or whatever your Serbian name actually is,

If Pec and Decani regions goes to Montenegro as you say, then the whole MN demographics will change. There's over 250k+ Albanians in that district. If it went to MN then over 30% of MN will be Albanian. It will be another Macedonia where a lot of policies are dictated by Albanians. You think they want that? So stop with your possible senseless scenarios.

Never mentioned the last 300 years, since 1945 will do. The population censuses are there for all to read. Typical albanian, responds with an answer to a different question than the one posed and makes the rest of it up. In some ways it is sad that you all didn't live under Enver Hoxa instead in his paradise. Instead, it is a professional career of benefit fraud.

No new borders? I agree. Then the West must immediatelly stop illegal (yes, illegal) Kosovo 'independence'.

No double standards!

Those countries which haven't said anything, haven't recognized Kosovo by default.
(aaayyy, 6 October 2011 18:54)

How do you know that ? If we ask a country "do you recognize Kosovo still as part of Serbia ?" and they don't say anything, should we take that as a "Yes" or a "No" or a nothing ?

That's why Serbia continues to loose because it makes false assumptions...

If there is no YES then you must treat it as a NO.

You are wasting your time trying to explain this. Nobody on the Albanian side is capable of understanding it.
(Peggy, 6 October 2011 22:08)

So Peggy, according to you, if we ask a country "do you recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia?" and they don't say anything, then we must treat it as a "No". That's great... I think Albanians in Kosovo would fully agree with you Peggy :)

China and Russia are beginning to assert themselves (rightfully) at the UN and the recognitions have just not come.
(Aura, 7 October 2011 11:15)

Good for them... (even though don't tell that to Russian and the Chinese because they would be offended - they think they were always major players at the UN)

Not sure though what that has to do with Kosovo or the topic being discussed here ?!

Nothing i can say to you other than we'll have to agree to disagree. China is unhappy at the way Serbia has been treated is it? Why? Do the Chinese share a cultural bond the Serbs? Is it because China has designs in the Balkans? Chinese trade with the US is or far more importance to them then Serbia's grievance over Kosovo. It's the same thing for the US incidentally. They care more about their relationship with China than they ever will about Albanians in Kosovo...with good reason too

The best solution is for Kosovo to have autonomy under 1244.

In my view, 1244 is in the breach because of the udi and Serbia therefore has the legal right to re-invade and regain its own territory at some stage. That cannot happen for a long time I agree, but Serbia will not therefore give up on the possibility of eventually regaining control over its own province. There is no guarantee that the international protection will be there forever. The future is a long time. Things will break one day.

"The logic is very simple: there are problems in north Kosova so Kosova needs to be partitioned.
Now Alabanins in Presheva valley need to create problems to Serbia as Serbs are doing to Kosova so Serbia can be partitioned as well.
...
This is what EU is saying and we all want to be part of EU. Draskovic is right."

(ben, 5 October 2011 15:33)
Yes, it sounds very simple, but exactly by that simple logic, Serbia has been partitioned and Kosovo has been created.

icj-correct me if Im wrong. The ICJ declared that declaring independence is not illegal. So the North can declare independence as well.

No contry questions Serbia suverenity, while Kosovo isn't recognized as independent state by majority of world countries.
(aaayyy, 5 October 2011 17:36)

That's not correct. 80+ countries have said they recognize Kosovo's independence. About 20 have said they don't recognize Kosovo's independence. About 90 have not said anything.
(icj1, 6 October 2011 02:56)

Those countries which haven't said anything, haven't recognized Kosovo by default.

If i were the Kalbs, i would be looking to cut a deal asap. I think the tide is slowly turning. The Americans are fed up, the EU are broke, China and Russia are beginning to assert themselves (rightfully) at the UN and the recognitions have just not come. Everyone in the intl community wants there to be a deal, except those who got us into this almighty mess from the start. Let's partition and get on with our lives. Who knows, over time, we may even be able to converse in a civilised manner.

Aura

You overestimate how much China cares about Kosovo. Allow me to tell you, it cares very little for it

Those countries which haven't said anything, haven't recognized Kosovo by default.
(aaayyy, 6 October 2011 18:54)
=======================
Do you know how many ties I have said the same thing here but the Albanians are still repeating the same old c**p.
It's like when you are going for a loan at the bank. You haven't been approved but you are boasting of how you bought that house.
If there is no YES then you must treat it as a NO.

You are wasting your time trying to explain this. Nobody on the Albanian side is capable of understanding it.

Let's say there is a swap in territory, who gets the name?
Does what is being let go remain Kosovo or the part which remains with Serbia?
Who is going to claim the name or are we going to have the same situation as Macdonia-Greece argument?

alban- i disagree. China IS unhappy with the way Serbia has been treated by NATO. I would never presume that Kosovo is a priority for them, but they are not as platonic as you would like to believe. As they have grown richer, the Chinese have begun to express their frustration with western meddling in other countries affairs and Serbia is a part of that. They would not go to war over kosovo certainly, but there are other ways they can support Serbia, and they are doing it.

"China is unhappy at the way Serbia has been treated is it? Why? Do the Chinese share a cultural bond the Serbs? Is it because China has designs in the Balkans? Chinese trade with the US is or far more importance to them then Serbia's grievance over Kosovo. It's the same thing for the US incidentally. They care more about their relationship with China than they ever will about Albanians in Kosovo...with good reason too"
(adriatik, 7 October 2011 12:50)

Kosovo with its not even 2 million people is a flyspeck on the global map. The problem China as well as several other countries have with Kosovo is the acceptance of a unilateral change of borders by some ethnic minorities - nothing more, nothing less. It's not about care for Serbia. And unlike some supporters of conspriacy theries think, Camp Bondsteel is a flyspeck on the map of US bases, too.

No new borders? I agree. Then the West must immediatelly stop illegal (yes, illegal) Kosovo 'independence'.

No double standards!
(Ron, 6 October 2011 14:08)

Illegal according to what law ?

icj-correct me if Im wrong. The ICJ declared that declaring independence is not illegal. So the North can declare independence as well.
(Aura, 6 October 2011 18:16)

Well, you forgot some details - the ICJ did not make that sweeping opinion. The ICJ said something much more specific. It said that it was not illegal for a specific entity (Kosovo) to declare independence on a specific date (18 Feb. 2008). It did not say anything about Kosovo's UDI of 1991 or the, eventual, N. Kosovo UDI or for the UDI of anybody else.

the reason for that is that the international law that applies to the N. Kosovo is slightly different and it very possible that a N. Kosovo UDI is illegal under international law because the applicable norms are different.