Students from elementary and high schools in the town of Kosovska Mitrovica today gathered to protest against demands to abolish Serbian institutions in Kosovo.
I thought your post was very well written and put together. except for this part. Think about it I am assuming you are talking about the incident a couple of days ago. But think about it. According to the story it was a single rock, it was not reported that a group of people were gathered and throwing multiple rocks, common sense tells you that the rock was thrown and the perpetrator either ran or dashed behind something, no one reported seeing who through the rock. So what is the logical thing any police force would do other than open an investigation?
Arrest all Albanians within the area? that was the tactics in the 90's wasn't it?
While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car.
But the automatic assumption that this was an act committed by an Albanian means Serbia has not moved beyond the prejudices of the past. Think about it.
(Think about it., 7 September 2011 13:04)
Well, I was actually talking about another incident which happened a few months ago which saw more than a couple of rocks being thrown at some bus full of Serbs heading towards a cemetery, on Djurdjevdan or some other occasion - it doesn't really matter, to be frank. The fact is, considering that a lot of the policemen who are now a part of the KPS fought for the KLA in the late '90s, I don't 'think' that their treatment of Serbs would be completely objective. I'm not stating that as a fact, I just think that it's a fair assumption, since a lot of Albanians in Kosovo would be apprehensive and suspicious of anything Serbian, since the '90s wasn't that far long ago. Besides, that was honestly more of a blanket statement rather than anything else, and the point of my post had more to do with using a breach of the R2P as justification for independence.
But, I agree with you on the part about Serbs and Albanians failing to move beyond past prejudices. It's just unfortunate and sad that it's a problem plaguing almost every ethnicity in the Balkans.
---
stephan,
not to be nitpicky, but i was wondering if your conclusion of how kosovar albanians were treated in the 90's by the serbian government is based upon firsthand knowledge or what you've read on internet or news paper, watched on televised news, and listened to hearsay. i ask this because if that is the case, i would ask you to either accept both sides of the story, 1990's serbs bad against albanians, and 2000s albanians bad against serbs (or both stories) as equally valid.
note, i'm not trying to spur an angry reaction, just wondering if you have the same fundemental understanding of both sides, but have a different level of acceptance.
(mirium, 7 September 2011 15:35)
Oh, I try to act and think as objectively as possible, without giving any specific preference to Serbs or Albanians. But to answer your question, pretty much everything I hear about Kosovo (both Serbs against Albanians, and Albanians against Serbs) is second-hand information. I've never been to Kosovo, so I'm not really prepared to make any bold declarations such as "Oh, Serbs are being ethnically-cleansed from Kosovo" based off a few comments by commenters on B92, and demographic statistics of Kosovo over a couple of decades, plus news articles. I just try and remain objective, and impart what knowledge I have of politics and the region to the scenario in discussion - in this case, the right to protect which every government is entrusted to, and when this right is breached.
---
Stefan,
From legal perspective Kosovo isn't independent since it wasn't recognized by United Nations as such. So Kosovo North Serbs have rights to behave as citisens of Serbia.
(aaayyy, 7 September 2011 15:38)
I agree with you. But honestly, one's personal opinion on the validity of Kosovo's independence doesn't really matter in this case, which is why I think it's somewhat irrelevant to even talk about it. The broad message of my post was merely to point out one of the justifications which the Kosovar Albanians used in declaring independence - that Yugoslavia (and, thus, Serbia) breached the right to protect the Albanian minority in Yugoslavia, hence giving them the right to make a sovereign decision, as the Prishtina authorities were elected by the (Albanian) people of Kosovo. If Kosovo ever was to be fully accepted as a state by pretty much everyone on the planet (including Serbia - this is purely hypothetical), and if the Serbs in Northern Kosovo ever wanted to separate, then they only would do so if the Kosovar authorities breached that same right to protect which the Yugoslav authorities breached in the '90s.
The main legal argument which the Kosovar authorities put forward was to do with the fact that the Yugoslav government breached the right to rule over the Albanians of Kosovo because of the accused war crimes in the Kosovo War. Hence, they believe that they have the right to declare independence from the Serbs, since in international law, serious human rights-abuses constitute breaching your representation of people.
(Stefan, 7 September 2011 11:51)
You got it all wrong. The ICJ never said that the Albanians had a right to declare independence because of human rights violations. Only one ICJ judge supported that position. There is no international law that gives the right to independence if human rights are violated.
The main arguments of the Albanians was that there is no provision in international law or 1244 which prohibited the Kosovo's UDI in Feb 2008 and hence the UDI is in accordance with international law. The ICJ agreed with that - end of the story.
Its very funny that you bring the subject of propaganda,especially when your "government" kindly likes to brush over the fact that it is composed of members of a former terrorist organization,that it alone is responsible for over a third of civilian deaths during the kosovo civil war and that their "state" processes 80 percent of the world illigale heroin trade.
Yes i am sure the students truly want to live in such a place...
From legal perspective Kosovo isn't independent since it wasn't recognized by United Nations as such. So Kosovo North Serbs have rights to behave as citisens of Serbia.
stephan,
not to be nitpicky, but i was wondering if your conclusion of how kosovar albanians were treated in the 90's by the serbian government is based upon firsthand knowledge or what you've read on internet or news paper, watched on televised news, and listened to hearsay. i ask this because if that is the case, i would ask you to either accept both sides of the story, 1990's serbs bad against albanians, and 2000s albanians bad against serbs (or both stories) as equally valid.
note, i'm not trying to spur an angry reaction, just wondering if you have the same fundemental understanding of both sides, but have a different level of acceptance.
Winston, I support you man, unfortunately the N. KiM Serbs don't. If they wanted nothing to do with Albanians in Kosovo, the N. KiM would have declared independence from Kosovo.
(icj1, 7 September 2011 02:55)
icj1,
US/NATO said that Kosovo division is out of question.
"While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car. "
(Think about it., 7 September 2011 13:04)
The usual denial. In a similar case, there have been even perpetrators arrested - they only didn't get punish properly, as far as I know. If Kosovo would care, then the prosecutors would accuse the perpetrators for attempted murder and severely endangering traffic on roads, plus calling it an ethnic motivated crime. In normal countries, criminals who act like that and are caught can get into prison for some years. About the 'rock' flying up from a car driving in front of you: These are usually little pebbles, and surely not 'rocks' or 'stones' or bricks.
, although the police forces representing Pristina have, time and time again, basically shown that they couldn't care any less about how Serbs live (a bus full of Serbs is stoned under their own Kosovar escort, yet they have to open an investigation as to who the perpetrators were... Really?), none of their actions really constitute grave human rights breaches.
(Stefan, 7 September 2011 11:51)
I thought your post was very well written and put together. except for this part. Think about it I am assuming you are talking about the incident a couple of days ago. But think about it. According to the story it was a single rock, it was not reported that a group of people were gathered and throwing multiple rocks, common sense tells you that the rock was thrown and the perpetrator either ran or dashed behind something, no one reported seeing who through the rock. So what is the logical thing any police force would do other than open an investigation?
Arrest all Albanians within the area? that was the tactics in the 90's wasn't it?
While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car.
But the automatic assumption that this was an act committed by an Albanian means Serbia has not moved beyond the prejudices of the past. Think about it.
Was this not what the Albanians proclaimed as the basis of their UDI? Why souldn't the Serbs in KiM be allowed the same?
(Winston, 6 September 2011 18:53)
The main legal argument which the Kosovar authorities put forward was to do with the fact that the Yugoslav government breached the right to rule over the Albanians of Kosovo because of the accused war crimes in the Kosovo War. Hence, they believe that they have the right to declare independence from the Serbs, since in international law, serious human rights-abuses constitute breaching your representation of people. The same argument was used by those supporting the Libyan rebels against al-Qaddafi, not to mention the rebels themselves, and also explains why they've received such vehement international support (even from the Russians).
So, from a legal perspective, again, Serbs in Northern Kosovo won't really have that opportunity unless the Pristina authorities start committing atrocities against the Serbs akin to what the Yugoslav security forces did in the late '90s - i.e., denying them the right to be educated in their own language, forced evictions, killings, whatever.
I'm not going to make any comments about these labels like "terrorists" which the Albanians like using to describe Serbs in Northern Kosovo fighting for their own rights (which is exactly what Albanians all over Kosovo did for pretty much the entire existence of Yugoslavia, so they have no right to complain), since I've never been to Northern Kosovo, and my knowledge of the treatment of Serbs is a result of my own research on the internet, and through hearsay. But from what I can tell, although the police forces representing Pristina have, time and time again, basically shown that they couldn't care any less about how Serbs live (a bus full of Serbs is stoned under their own Kosovar escort, yet they have to open an investigation as to who the perpetrators were... Really?), none of their actions really constitute grave human rights breaches. Most of the stuff done to Serbs in Kosovo are done by nationalist thugs, who are probably unemployed bums who have nothing better to do in life then exert their financial frustrations on people of a different ethnicity. They're in surplus across the Balkans, though, so I don't think it's exclusively an Albanian problem (they just don't know what subtle means).
I really don't understand the arguments put forward by Albanians when it comes to northern Kosovo. The reality is very simple; The people in northern Kosovo (much due to the Kosovo conflict) have been enjoying a much higher standard of living than that of their southern neighbours (inluding Serbs south of the Ibar). And no matter what their bound to enjoy a better standard of living as part of Serbian than those they would enjoy as citizens of Kosovo.In addition, despite the media frenzy of late and despite the apparant complete lack of authority in northern Kosovo criminal activity there is not more or less than that south of river Ibar.
Kosovo should have its own state; Yes, Milosevic and his cronies have committed crimes against their own (then) citizens and therefore these citizens (Albanians) must have the right not to be ruled by the same authority. However, if people south of the river Ibar have this right then the same should be applied to Serbs in the north.
Kosovo is and will never be a multi-ethnic society. Kosovars tolerate the existence of other ethnic groups (ie Roma,Bosniaks, Turks) so long as they remain silent and accept that Kosovo is in essence an Albanian state. For the Albanian commentators? Does Kosovo have the means and the will to provide Serbs with education in their own language? And are Kosovo institutions mature enough to produce education material (ie history books) that will also be accepted by the other ethnic groups in Kosovo? I think you already know the answer to this question.
The international presence in Kosovo has sacrificed the chance to assist in the creation of a modern and democratic state in order to maintain peace and order with the host population. Indepedent Kosovo is small, with no economy or economic prospects run by a very small but powerfull group of people that have vested interestes in keeping it underdeveloped. They are the ones who fought for Kosovo to be indepedent but if they were true patriots they should have let democracy and pluralism grow. As a prominant diplomat in Pristina said- Kosovo is too small to evade the struggling grip of its "founders."
The recent action in the north was a carefully calculated action taken by Thaqi to restore his popularity and it worked. Yes, of course Kosovo institutions want to extend their authority in the north but why did Thaqi act when he did? People might ignore the fact that his government was put under pressure over corruption and one of his closest party allies (Limaj)was under investigation by EULEX (a warrant was issued on the day or a day before the action in the north started). The patriotic card (ie lets make this unruly Serbs in the north capitulate to our authority) was bound to pay off and it did. The majority of Kosovo Albanians know that they are being ruled by a corrupt political elite that is struggling any descending voice and any chance for a better future. But taking action against the parennial enemy was always going to unite them under the flag of the state and of course the government. Natiolism is always a winner especially in the Balkans. Thaqi's actions diverted attention from the internal debate in Kosovo over corruption and the bad press that his government has been getting for "drugging" Kosovo into negotiations with Serbia without a plan and desired outcomes. He is def. the winner of this mess. PDK's popularity and his own has been restored. The family of the deceased police officer and all the other people who have suffered from his actions are the victims.
To the Serbian commentators? Does the government in Belgrade have a strategy over Kosovo and over northern Kosovo in particular? Yes Kosovo for a lot of Serbs is the heart of Serbia. But as I said before Milosevic pulled that heart out and the body must now learn to live without it. Yes the government is under immense pressure from the Church and other nationalist groups to keep a hard stance over Kosovo. But the south of Kosovo is lost. Everyone knows about his and tough as it may be for those Serbs living south of the river Ibar the only solution is to either integrate into Kosovo institutions (which is already hapenning) or leave. In order to gain visa libarisation the Serbian government accepted that people living in Kosovo are not its citizens. Serbs in Kosovo were excluded from getting the same passports as other "true" Serbs. Is this an action of a state that fights to keep Kosovo within its borders? I think we all know the answer is obvious. Maybe the time has now come for an open and honest dialogue in Serbia over Kosovo and what should Serbia's pursuits there be? In my own personal opinion (and of course this does not matter much) Serbia should accept a compromise that guarantees the autonomy and protection of the cultural and religious sites south of the river Ibar and insist on a special status for the north. Given the current balance of power in the international arena anything more than that (ie northern Kosovo reunited with Serbia) is not a realistic expectation.This would imply that Belgrade recognises an indepedent Kosovo but would also ensure that the rights of Serbs living there are protected.
"@winston ,kosovo had these borders for decades , what borders do serbs in Mitrovica have ?"
(tony, 6 September 2011 22:26)
Yes, but keep in mind that the 'borders' of Kosovo were simply set by Tito after WWII. The goal was to have a more or less ethnic balanced Kosovo, and NOT to draw borders along ethnic lines. Since it was an 'internal border', it had no meaning at all. The 'historical Kosovo' (the area referred to as 'Kosovo' in centuries before) was totally different. So to claim that these 'Kosovo borders' are historic and a reason to claim this area for a state of 'Kosovo' is utter nonsense. As stupid as 'Macedonians' claim to be the decendants of Alexander the Great
Unbelievable and outrageous, in civilised countries, schools are no go area for politicians let alone criminal structures. Using children as pawns is pathetic.
Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
You know, a blogger on B92 mentioned long time ago, "A protest can be read by the people's faces"..
You can clearly see that these kids aren't being forced into anything. It's a wonderful thing. The young Albanians should learn a thing or two about peaceful protests.
Unlike the earlier 80's Pristina demonstrations by Albanian students, who were clearly pushing for a nationalist agenda taught from their households. This was far more worse than now.
what it does it take for you serbs to understand that Kosovo does not recognize belgrade's criminals and terrorist "parallel" structures?
Thanks,
(KOSO, 6 September 2011 17:56)
Sorry Koso....These kids were born in the province of Kosovo..They're not going anywhere. In fact, if you didn't force them out in '04, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Blame yourselves.
Serbs everywhere should blame themselfs for voting for Milosevic 20 years ago and countinued to support him for years , so it serb nation`s fault !!
(tony, 6 September 2011 22:26)
I'm sorry tony, Milosevic died a while back ago..He was a mere spot in Balkan history.
But yes, i agree, Serbs should be angered that they allowed the communists to rule..
For you see, during Milosevic's time, Serbian flags weren't allowed. Look closely at the picture. You don't see anything dealing with the stupid "brotherhood" star on them..
Thank goodness the real flag is back!!!!
Chalk one up for democracy Tony.
There wouldn't have been a Milosevic if the Albos from Kosovo didn't give reason for it..
I do not understand why it is so hard for Albanians to understand that the Serbs in N. KiM do not acknowledge Pristina's UDI, and want nothing to do with them - just like Albanians in other parts of KiM rejected Belgrade. Do Albanians feel that the Serbs do not have the same right to choose?
(Winston, 6 September 2011 16:41)
Winston, I support you man, unfortunately the N. KiM Serbs don't. If they wanted nothing to do with Albanians in Kosovo, the N. KiM would have declared independence from Kosovo.
Another shot at cheap propaganda. Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
History repeating. Didn't Kosovo Albanians students protest and had their own secret/private schools and universities because they didn't agree to the scholar system Serbia wanted to impose on them? It's easy to recognize for everone: It's all the same s**t, only with different roles. Thaci, the perfect son in mind of Milosevic!
If those kids would leave for a second their parental and govermental propaganda asside, then they should just ask the previous generation to what desaster that behaviour led.
@winston ,kosovo had these borders for decades , what borders do serbs in Mitrovica have ? serbs in Mitrovica can not choose what they want to do because then we can ask Albanians in Montenegro,Macedonia,Southern Serbia so where does that lead to ? lets just ask all nationalities Turks, Roma,Bosnians ,Hungarians,Croats in serbia as well ? serbs in Mitrovica need to shut up end live within Kosovo and use all the right that they have , Serbs everywhere should blame themselfs for voting for Milosevic 20 years ago and countinued to support him for years , so it serb nation`s fault !!
Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
Yes - if that Thaçi is a "nobody". We could even agree on that, except that it is far more dangerous man for the region than to be merely a "nobody".
Because - guess what - the schools, too, are part of these "parallel structures". In the fact, the strongest ones. If you say "down with the parallel structures" you also say "down with the Serbian school curriculum". I can imagine, this is precisely Thaçi's goal - because schools are more dangerous for him than some politicians.
I am sorry, you did not know that - it's not apparent at first because much more is said about the politics than about the schools. But now you probably got the idea. I would not financially support any politician simply because I do not trust any of them. At the moment schools and hospitals and libraries are affected - the situation is very different.
The most useful would be to leave these alone - they do not disturb anyone. But if you touch these, earlier or later the hell will go lose and no EULEX or KFOR can do much - these aren't set up to fight with civilians.
Koso, who labelled the authorities in N. KiM as terrorist and parallel structures? Was it Pristina? As far as I can see, this is just back and forth "Yes we are, no you aren't" statements from the Serbs and Albanians. Why not just allow the people to decide that live there? Was this not what the Albanians proclaimed as the basis of their UDI? Why souldn't the Serbs in KiM be allowed the same? There are many that claim that the thugs in Pristina are terrorists, actually the CIA did too at one time, and that their structures are illegal. Who is right?
their teachers and parents are saying that while they could be driven out of their schools by force, they can't be driven out of their homes. We will organize classes in private houses, but education institutions will remain a part of the education system of the Republic of Serbia no matter the cost," said Stojčetović.
Another shot at cheap propaganda. Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
They are not poor people, Agim, but students and teachers that do not want to be governed by people that have usurped their country. I do not understand why it is so hard for Albanians to understand that the Serbs in N. KiM do not acknowledge Pristina's UDI, and want nothing to do with them - just like Albanians in other parts of KiM rejected Belgrade. Do Albanians feel that the Serbs do not have the same right to choose?
Reading the proud and courageous words of these young people was truly inspiring. They know who they are and they are spiritually healthy. Some young Serbs unfortunately think that having such humiliating spectacles as foreign-imposed "gay parades" or surrendering Kosovo makes them into "westerners". Never. It makes you into spineless shoe-shine boys that will never win or deserve anyone's respect....or get in the EU!!!
They are not poor people, Agim, but students and teachers that do not want to be governed by people that have usurped their country. I do not understand why it is so hard for Albanians to understand that the Serbs in N. KiM do not acknowledge Pristina's UDI, and want nothing to do with them - just like Albanians in other parts of KiM rejected Belgrade. Do Albanians feel that the Serbs do not have the same right to choose?
their teachers and parents are saying that while they could be driven out of their schools by force, they can't be driven out of their homes. We will organize classes in private houses, but education institutions will remain a part of the education system of the Republic of Serbia no matter the cost," said Stojčetović.
Another shot at cheap propaganda. Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
Reading the proud and courageous words of these young people was truly inspiring. They know who they are and they are spiritually healthy. Some young Serbs unfortunately think that having such humiliating spectacles as foreign-imposed "gay parades" or surrendering Kosovo makes them into "westerners". Never. It makes you into spineless shoe-shine boys that will never win or deserve anyone's respect....or get in the EU!!!
Koso, who labelled the authorities in N. KiM as terrorist and parallel structures? Was it Pristina? As far as I can see, this is just back and forth "Yes we are, no you aren't" statements from the Serbs and Albanians. Why not just allow the people to decide that live there? Was this not what the Albanians proclaimed as the basis of their UDI? Why souldn't the Serbs in KiM be allowed the same? There are many that claim that the thugs in Pristina are terrorists, actually the CIA did too at one time, and that their structures are illegal. Who is right?
Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
Yes - if that Thaçi is a "nobody". We could even agree on that, except that it is far more dangerous man for the region than to be merely a "nobody".
Because - guess what - the schools, too, are part of these "parallel structures". In the fact, the strongest ones. If you say "down with the parallel structures" you also say "down with the Serbian school curriculum". I can imagine, this is precisely Thaçi's goal - because schools are more dangerous for him than some politicians.
I am sorry, you did not know that - it's not apparent at first because much more is said about the politics than about the schools. But now you probably got the idea. I would not financially support any politician simply because I do not trust any of them. At the moment schools and hospitals and libraries are affected - the situation is very different.
The most useful would be to leave these alone - they do not disturb anyone. But if you touch these, earlier or later the hell will go lose and no EULEX or KFOR can do much - these aren't set up to fight with civilians.
@winston ,kosovo had these borders for decades , what borders do serbs in Mitrovica have ? serbs in Mitrovica can not choose what they want to do because then we can ask Albanians in Montenegro,Macedonia,Southern Serbia so where does that lead to ? lets just ask all nationalities Turks, Roma,Bosnians ,Hungarians,Croats in serbia as well ? serbs in Mitrovica need to shut up end live within Kosovo and use all the right that they have , Serbs everywhere should blame themselfs for voting for Milosevic 20 years ago and countinued to support him for years , so it serb nation`s fault !!
If those kids would leave for a second their parental and govermental propaganda asside, then they should just ask the previous generation to what desaster that behaviour led.
I really don't understand the arguments put forward by Albanians when it comes to northern Kosovo. The reality is very simple; The people in northern Kosovo (much due to the Kosovo conflict) have been enjoying a much higher standard of living than that of their southern neighbours (inluding Serbs south of the Ibar). And no matter what their bound to enjoy a better standard of living as part of Serbian than those they would enjoy as citizens of Kosovo.In addition, despite the media frenzy of late and despite the apparant complete lack of authority in northern Kosovo criminal activity there is not more or less than that south of river Ibar.
Kosovo should have its own state; Yes, Milosevic and his cronies have committed crimes against their own (then) citizens and therefore these citizens (Albanians) must have the right not to be ruled by the same authority. However, if people south of the river Ibar have this right then the same should be applied to Serbs in the north.
Kosovo is and will never be a multi-ethnic society. Kosovars tolerate the existence of other ethnic groups (ie Roma,Bosniaks, Turks) so long as they remain silent and accept that Kosovo is in essence an Albanian state. For the Albanian commentators? Does Kosovo have the means and the will to provide Serbs with education in their own language? And are Kosovo institutions mature enough to produce education material (ie history books) that will also be accepted by the other ethnic groups in Kosovo? I think you already know the answer to this question.
The international presence in Kosovo has sacrificed the chance to assist in the creation of a modern and democratic state in order to maintain peace and order with the host population. Indepedent Kosovo is small, with no economy or economic prospects run by a very small but powerfull group of people that have vested interestes in keeping it underdeveloped. They are the ones who fought for Kosovo to be indepedent but if they were true patriots they should have let democracy and pluralism grow. As a prominant diplomat in Pristina said- Kosovo is too small to evade the struggling grip of its "founders."
The recent action in the north was a carefully calculated action taken by Thaqi to restore his popularity and it worked. Yes, of course Kosovo institutions want to extend their authority in the north but why did Thaqi act when he did? People might ignore the fact that his government was put under pressure over corruption and one of his closest party allies (Limaj)was under investigation by EULEX (a warrant was issued on the day or a day before the action in the north started). The patriotic card (ie lets make this unruly Serbs in the north capitulate to our authority) was bound to pay off and it did. The majority of Kosovo Albanians know that they are being ruled by a corrupt political elite that is struggling any descending voice and any chance for a better future. But taking action against the parennial enemy was always going to unite them under the flag of the state and of course the government. Natiolism is always a winner especially in the Balkans. Thaqi's actions diverted attention from the internal debate in Kosovo over corruption and the bad press that his government has been getting for "drugging" Kosovo into negotiations with Serbia without a plan and desired outcomes. He is def. the winner of this mess. PDK's popularity and his own has been restored. The family of the deceased police officer and all the other people who have suffered from his actions are the victims.
To the Serbian commentators? Does the government in Belgrade have a strategy over Kosovo and over northern Kosovo in particular? Yes Kosovo for a lot of Serbs is the heart of Serbia. But as I said before Milosevic pulled that heart out and the body must now learn to live without it. Yes the government is under immense pressure from the Church and other nationalist groups to keep a hard stance over Kosovo. But the south of Kosovo is lost. Everyone knows about his and tough as it may be for those Serbs living south of the river Ibar the only solution is to either integrate into Kosovo institutions (which is already hapenning) or leave. In order to gain visa libarisation the Serbian government accepted that people living in Kosovo are not its citizens. Serbs in Kosovo were excluded from getting the same passports as other "true" Serbs. Is this an action of a state that fights to keep Kosovo within its borders? I think we all know the answer is obvious. Maybe the time has now come for an open and honest dialogue in Serbia over Kosovo and what should Serbia's pursuits there be? In my own personal opinion (and of course this does not matter much) Serbia should accept a compromise that guarantees the autonomy and protection of the cultural and religious sites south of the river Ibar and insist on a special status for the north. Given the current balance of power in the international arena anything more than that (ie northern Kosovo reunited with Serbia) is not a realistic expectation.This would imply that Belgrade recognises an indepedent Kosovo but would also ensure that the rights of Serbs living there are protected.
Was this not what the Albanians proclaimed as the basis of their UDI? Why souldn't the Serbs in KiM be allowed the same?
(Winston, 6 September 2011 18:53)
The main legal argument which the Kosovar authorities put forward was to do with the fact that the Yugoslav government breached the right to rule over the Albanians of Kosovo because of the accused war crimes in the Kosovo War. Hence, they believe that they have the right to declare independence from the Serbs, since in international law, serious human rights-abuses constitute breaching your representation of people. The same argument was used by those supporting the Libyan rebels against al-Qaddafi, not to mention the rebels themselves, and also explains why they've received such vehement international support (even from the Russians).
So, from a legal perspective, again, Serbs in Northern Kosovo won't really have that opportunity unless the Pristina authorities start committing atrocities against the Serbs akin to what the Yugoslav security forces did in the late '90s - i.e., denying them the right to be educated in their own language, forced evictions, killings, whatever.
I'm not going to make any comments about these labels like "terrorists" which the Albanians like using to describe Serbs in Northern Kosovo fighting for their own rights (which is exactly what Albanians all over Kosovo did for pretty much the entire existence of Yugoslavia, so they have no right to complain), since I've never been to Northern Kosovo, and my knowledge of the treatment of Serbs is a result of my own research on the internet, and through hearsay. But from what I can tell, although the police forces representing Pristina have, time and time again, basically shown that they couldn't care any less about how Serbs live (a bus full of Serbs is stoned under their own Kosovar escort, yet they have to open an investigation as to who the perpetrators were... Really?), none of their actions really constitute grave human rights breaches. Most of the stuff done to Serbs in Kosovo are done by nationalist thugs, who are probably unemployed bums who have nothing better to do in life then exert their financial frustrations on people of a different ethnicity. They're in surplus across the Balkans, though, so I don't think it's exclusively an Albanian problem (they just don't know what subtle means).
Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
You know, a blogger on B92 mentioned long time ago, "A protest can be read by the people's faces"..
You can clearly see that these kids aren't being forced into anything. It's a wonderful thing. The young Albanians should learn a thing or two about peaceful protests.
Unlike the earlier 80's Pristina demonstrations by Albanian students, who were clearly pushing for a nationalist agenda taught from their households. This was far more worse than now.
what it does it take for you serbs to understand that Kosovo does not recognize belgrade's criminals and terrorist "parallel" structures?
Thanks,
(KOSO, 6 September 2011 17:56)
Sorry Koso....These kids were born in the province of Kosovo..They're not going anywhere. In fact, if you didn't force them out in '04, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Blame yourselves.
Serbs everywhere should blame themselfs for voting for Milosevic 20 years ago and countinued to support him for years , so it serb nation`s fault !!
(tony, 6 September 2011 22:26)
I'm sorry tony, Milosevic died a while back ago..He was a mere spot in Balkan history.
But yes, i agree, Serbs should be angered that they allowed the communists to rule..
For you see, during Milosevic's time, Serbian flags weren't allowed. Look closely at the picture. You don't see anything dealing with the stupid "brotherhood" star on them..
Thank goodness the real flag is back!!!!
Chalk one up for democracy Tony.
There wouldn't have been a Milosevic if the Albos from Kosovo didn't give reason for it..
"@winston ,kosovo had these borders for decades , what borders do serbs in Mitrovica have ?"
(tony, 6 September 2011 22:26)
Yes, but keep in mind that the 'borders' of Kosovo were simply set by Tito after WWII. The goal was to have a more or less ethnic balanced Kosovo, and NOT to draw borders along ethnic lines. Since it was an 'internal border', it had no meaning at all. The 'historical Kosovo' (the area referred to as 'Kosovo' in centuries before) was totally different. So to claim that these 'Kosovo borders' are historic and a reason to claim this area for a state of 'Kosovo' is utter nonsense. As stupid as 'Macedonians' claim to be the decendants of Alexander the Great
, although the police forces representing Pristina have, time and time again, basically shown that they couldn't care any less about how Serbs live (a bus full of Serbs is stoned under their own Kosovar escort, yet they have to open an investigation as to who the perpetrators were... Really?), none of their actions really constitute grave human rights breaches.
(Stefan, 7 September 2011 11:51)
I thought your post was very well written and put together. except for this part. Think about it I am assuming you are talking about the incident a couple of days ago. But think about it. According to the story it was a single rock, it was not reported that a group of people were gathered and throwing multiple rocks, common sense tells you that the rock was thrown and the perpetrator either ran or dashed behind something, no one reported seeing who through the rock. So what is the logical thing any police force would do other than open an investigation?
Arrest all Albanians within the area? that was the tactics in the 90's wasn't it?
While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car.
But the automatic assumption that this was an act committed by an Albanian means Serbia has not moved beyond the prejudices of the past. Think about it.
From legal perspective Kosovo isn't independent since it wasn't recognized by United Nations as such. So Kosovo North Serbs have rights to behave as citisens of Serbia.
Another shot at cheap propaganda. Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
History repeating. Didn't Kosovo Albanians students protest and had their own secret/private schools and universities because they didn't agree to the scholar system Serbia wanted to impose on them? It's easy to recognize for everone: It's all the same s**t, only with different roles. Thaci, the perfect son in mind of Milosevic!
I do not understand why it is so hard for Albanians to understand that the Serbs in N. KiM do not acknowledge Pristina's UDI, and want nothing to do with them - just like Albanians in other parts of KiM rejected Belgrade. Do Albanians feel that the Serbs do not have the same right to choose?
(Winston, 6 September 2011 16:41)
Winston, I support you man, unfortunately the N. KiM Serbs don't. If they wanted nothing to do with Albanians in Kosovo, the N. KiM would have declared independence from Kosovo.
"While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car. "
(Think about it., 7 September 2011 13:04)
The usual denial. In a similar case, there have been even perpetrators arrested - they only didn't get punish properly, as far as I know. If Kosovo would care, then the prosecutors would accuse the perpetrators for attempted murder and severely endangering traffic on roads, plus calling it an ethnic motivated crime. In normal countries, criminals who act like that and are caught can get into prison for some years. About the 'rock' flying up from a car driving in front of you: These are usually little pebbles, and surely not 'rocks' or 'stones' or bricks.
Unbelievable and outrageous, in civilised countries, schools are no go area for politicians let alone criminal structures. Using children as pawns is pathetic.
stephan,
not to be nitpicky, but i was wondering if your conclusion of how kosovar albanians were treated in the 90's by the serbian government is based upon firsthand knowledge or what you've read on internet or news paper, watched on televised news, and listened to hearsay. i ask this because if that is the case, i would ask you to either accept both sides of the story, 1990's serbs bad against albanians, and 2000s albanians bad against serbs (or both stories) as equally valid.
note, i'm not trying to spur an angry reaction, just wondering if you have the same fundemental understanding of both sides, but have a different level of acceptance.
Winston, I support you man, unfortunately the N. KiM Serbs don't. If they wanted nothing to do with Albanians in Kosovo, the N. KiM would have declared independence from Kosovo.
(icj1, 7 September 2011 02:55)
icj1,
US/NATO said that Kosovo division is out of question.
Its very funny that you bring the subject of propaganda,especially when your "government" kindly likes to brush over the fact that it is composed of members of a former terrorist organization,that it alone is responsible for over a third of civilian deaths during the kosovo civil war and that their "state" processes 80 percent of the world illigale heroin trade.
Yes i am sure the students truly want to live in such a place...
The main legal argument which the Kosovar authorities put forward was to do with the fact that the Yugoslav government breached the right to rule over the Albanians of Kosovo because of the accused war crimes in the Kosovo War. Hence, they believe that they have the right to declare independence from the Serbs, since in international law, serious human rights-abuses constitute breaching your representation of people.
(Stefan, 7 September 2011 11:51)
You got it all wrong. The ICJ never said that the Albanians had a right to declare independence because of human rights violations. Only one ICJ judge supported that position. There is no international law that gives the right to independence if human rights are violated.
The main arguments of the Albanians was that there is no provision in international law or 1244 which prohibited the Kosovo's UDI in Feb 2008 and hence the UDI is in accordance with international law. The ICJ agreed with that - end of the story.
I thought your post was very well written and put together. except for this part. Think about it I am assuming you are talking about the incident a couple of days ago. But think about it. According to the story it was a single rock, it was not reported that a group of people were gathered and throwing multiple rocks, common sense tells you that the rock was thrown and the perpetrator either ran or dashed behind something, no one reported seeing who through the rock. So what is the logical thing any police force would do other than open an investigation?
Arrest all Albanians within the area? that was the tactics in the 90's wasn't it?
While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car.
But the automatic assumption that this was an act committed by an Albanian means Serbia has not moved beyond the prejudices of the past. Think about it.
(Think about it., 7 September 2011 13:04)
Well, I was actually talking about another incident which happened a few months ago which saw more than a couple of rocks being thrown at some bus full of Serbs heading towards a cemetery, on Djurdjevdan or some other occasion - it doesn't really matter, to be frank. The fact is, considering that a lot of the policemen who are now a part of the KPS fought for the KLA in the late '90s, I don't 'think' that their treatment of Serbs would be completely objective. I'm not stating that as a fact, I just think that it's a fair assumption, since a lot of Albanians in Kosovo would be apprehensive and suspicious of anything Serbian, since the '90s wasn't that far long ago. Besides, that was honestly more of a blanket statement rather than anything else, and the point of my post had more to do with using a breach of the R2P as justification for independence.
But, I agree with you on the part about Serbs and Albanians failing to move beyond past prejudices. It's just unfortunate and sad that it's a problem plaguing almost every ethnicity in the Balkans.
---
stephan,
not to be nitpicky, but i was wondering if your conclusion of how kosovar albanians were treated in the 90's by the serbian government is based upon firsthand knowledge or what you've read on internet or news paper, watched on televised news, and listened to hearsay. i ask this because if that is the case, i would ask you to either accept both sides of the story, 1990's serbs bad against albanians, and 2000s albanians bad against serbs (or both stories) as equally valid.
note, i'm not trying to spur an angry reaction, just wondering if you have the same fundemental understanding of both sides, but have a different level of acceptance.
(mirium, 7 September 2011 15:35)
Oh, I try to act and think as objectively as possible, without giving any specific preference to Serbs or Albanians. But to answer your question, pretty much everything I hear about Kosovo (both Serbs against Albanians, and Albanians against Serbs) is second-hand information. I've never been to Kosovo, so I'm not really prepared to make any bold declarations such as "Oh, Serbs are being ethnically-cleansed from Kosovo" based off a few comments by commenters on B92, and demographic statistics of Kosovo over a couple of decades, plus news articles. I just try and remain objective, and impart what knowledge I have of politics and the region to the scenario in discussion - in this case, the right to protect which every government is entrusted to, and when this right is breached.
---
Stefan,
From legal perspective Kosovo isn't independent since it wasn't recognized by United Nations as such. So Kosovo North Serbs have rights to behave as citisens of Serbia.
(aaayyy, 7 September 2011 15:38)
I agree with you. But honestly, one's personal opinion on the validity of Kosovo's independence doesn't really matter in this case, which is why I think it's somewhat irrelevant to even talk about it. The broad message of my post was merely to point out one of the justifications which the Kosovar Albanians used in declaring independence - that Yugoslavia (and, thus, Serbia) breached the right to protect the Albanian minority in Yugoslavia, hence giving them the right to make a sovereign decision, as the Prishtina authorities were elected by the (Albanian) people of Kosovo. If Kosovo ever was to be fully accepted as a state by pretty much everyone on the planet (including Serbia - this is purely hypothetical), and if the Serbs in Northern Kosovo ever wanted to separate, then they only would do so if the Kosovar authorities breached that same right to protect which the Yugoslav authorities breached in the '90s.
their teachers and parents are saying that while they could be driven out of their schools by force, they can't be driven out of their homes. We will organize classes in private houses, but education institutions will remain a part of the education system of the Republic of Serbia no matter the cost," said Stojčetović.
Another shot at cheap propaganda. Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
They are not poor people, Agim, but students and teachers that do not want to be governed by people that have usurped their country. I do not understand why it is so hard for Albanians to understand that the Serbs in N. KiM do not acknowledge Pristina's UDI, and want nothing to do with them - just like Albanians in other parts of KiM rejected Belgrade. Do Albanians feel that the Serbs do not have the same right to choose?
@winston ,kosovo had these borders for decades , what borders do serbs in Mitrovica have ? serbs in Mitrovica can not choose what they want to do because then we can ask Albanians in Montenegro,Macedonia,Southern Serbia so where does that lead to ? lets just ask all nationalities Turks, Roma,Bosnians ,Hungarians,Croats in serbia as well ? serbs in Mitrovica need to shut up end live within Kosovo and use all the right that they have , Serbs everywhere should blame themselfs for voting for Milosevic 20 years ago and countinued to support him for years , so it serb nation`s fault !!
Reading the proud and courageous words of these young people was truly inspiring. They know who they are and they are spiritually healthy. Some young Serbs unfortunately think that having such humiliating spectacles as foreign-imposed "gay parades" or surrendering Kosovo makes them into "westerners". Never. It makes you into spineless shoe-shine boys that will never win or deserve anyone's respect....or get in the EU!!!
If those kids would leave for a second their parental and govermental propaganda asside, then they should just ask the previous generation to what desaster that behaviour led.
Unbelievable and outrageous, in civilised countries, schools are no go area for politicians let alone criminal structures. Using children as pawns is pathetic.
Koso, who labelled the authorities in N. KiM as terrorist and parallel structures? Was it Pristina? As far as I can see, this is just back and forth "Yes we are, no you aren't" statements from the Serbs and Albanians. Why not just allow the people to decide that live there? Was this not what the Albanians proclaimed as the basis of their UDI? Why souldn't the Serbs in KiM be allowed the same? There are many that claim that the thugs in Pristina are terrorists, actually the CIA did too at one time, and that their structures are illegal. Who is right?
Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
Yes - if that Thaçi is a "nobody". We could even agree on that, except that it is far more dangerous man for the region than to be merely a "nobody".
Because - guess what - the schools, too, are part of these "parallel structures". In the fact, the strongest ones. If you say "down with the parallel structures" you also say "down with the Serbian school curriculum". I can imagine, this is precisely Thaçi's goal - because schools are more dangerous for him than some politicians.
I am sorry, you did not know that - it's not apparent at first because much more is said about the politics than about the schools. But now you probably got the idea. I would not financially support any politician simply because I do not trust any of them. At the moment schools and hospitals and libraries are affected - the situation is very different.
The most useful would be to leave these alone - they do not disturb anyone. But if you touch these, earlier or later the hell will go lose and no EULEX or KFOR can do much - these aren't set up to fight with civilians.
Another shot at cheap propaganda. Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
History repeating. Didn't Kosovo Albanians students protest and had their own secret/private schools and universities because they didn't agree to the scholar system Serbia wanted to impose on them? It's easy to recognize for everone: It's all the same s**t, only with different roles. Thaci, the perfect son in mind of Milosevic!
"@winston ,kosovo had these borders for decades , what borders do serbs in Mitrovica have ?"
(tony, 6 September 2011 22:26)
Yes, but keep in mind that the 'borders' of Kosovo were simply set by Tito after WWII. The goal was to have a more or less ethnic balanced Kosovo, and NOT to draw borders along ethnic lines. Since it was an 'internal border', it had no meaning at all. The 'historical Kosovo' (the area referred to as 'Kosovo' in centuries before) was totally different. So to claim that these 'Kosovo borders' are historic and a reason to claim this area for a state of 'Kosovo' is utter nonsense. As stupid as 'Macedonians' claim to be the decendants of Alexander the Great
I really don't understand the arguments put forward by Albanians when it comes to northern Kosovo. The reality is very simple; The people in northern Kosovo (much due to the Kosovo conflict) have been enjoying a much higher standard of living than that of their southern neighbours (inluding Serbs south of the Ibar). And no matter what their bound to enjoy a better standard of living as part of Serbian than those they would enjoy as citizens of Kosovo.In addition, despite the media frenzy of late and despite the apparant complete lack of authority in northern Kosovo criminal activity there is not more or less than that south of river Ibar.
Kosovo should have its own state; Yes, Milosevic and his cronies have committed crimes against their own (then) citizens and therefore these citizens (Albanians) must have the right not to be ruled by the same authority. However, if people south of the river Ibar have this right then the same should be applied to Serbs in the north.
Kosovo is and will never be a multi-ethnic society. Kosovars tolerate the existence of other ethnic groups (ie Roma,Bosniaks, Turks) so long as they remain silent and accept that Kosovo is in essence an Albanian state. For the Albanian commentators? Does Kosovo have the means and the will to provide Serbs with education in their own language? And are Kosovo institutions mature enough to produce education material (ie history books) that will also be accepted by the other ethnic groups in Kosovo? I think you already know the answer to this question.
The international presence in Kosovo has sacrificed the chance to assist in the creation of a modern and democratic state in order to maintain peace and order with the host population. Indepedent Kosovo is small, with no economy or economic prospects run by a very small but powerfull group of people that have vested interestes in keeping it underdeveloped. They are the ones who fought for Kosovo to be indepedent but if they were true patriots they should have let democracy and pluralism grow. As a prominant diplomat in Pristina said- Kosovo is too small to evade the struggling grip of its "founders."
The recent action in the north was a carefully calculated action taken by Thaqi to restore his popularity and it worked. Yes, of course Kosovo institutions want to extend their authority in the north but why did Thaqi act when he did? People might ignore the fact that his government was put under pressure over corruption and one of his closest party allies (Limaj)was under investigation by EULEX (a warrant was issued on the day or a day before the action in the north started). The patriotic card (ie lets make this unruly Serbs in the north capitulate to our authority) was bound to pay off and it did. The majority of Kosovo Albanians know that they are being ruled by a corrupt political elite that is struggling any descending voice and any chance for a better future. But taking action against the parennial enemy was always going to unite them under the flag of the state and of course the government. Natiolism is always a winner especially in the Balkans. Thaqi's actions diverted attention from the internal debate in Kosovo over corruption and the bad press that his government has been getting for "drugging" Kosovo into negotiations with Serbia without a plan and desired outcomes. He is def. the winner of this mess. PDK's popularity and his own has been restored. The family of the deceased police officer and all the other people who have suffered from his actions are the victims.
To the Serbian commentators? Does the government in Belgrade have a strategy over Kosovo and over northern Kosovo in particular? Yes Kosovo for a lot of Serbs is the heart of Serbia. But as I said before Milosevic pulled that heart out and the body must now learn to live without it. Yes the government is under immense pressure from the Church and other nationalist groups to keep a hard stance over Kosovo. But the south of Kosovo is lost. Everyone knows about his and tough as it may be for those Serbs living south of the river Ibar the only solution is to either integrate into Kosovo institutions (which is already hapenning) or leave. In order to gain visa libarisation the Serbian government accepted that people living in Kosovo are not its citizens. Serbs in Kosovo were excluded from getting the same passports as other "true" Serbs. Is this an action of a state that fights to keep Kosovo within its borders? I think we all know the answer is obvious. Maybe the time has now come for an open and honest dialogue in Serbia over Kosovo and what should Serbia's pursuits there be? In my own personal opinion (and of course this does not matter much) Serbia should accept a compromise that guarantees the autonomy and protection of the cultural and religious sites south of the river Ibar and insist on a special status for the north. Given the current balance of power in the international arena anything more than that (ie northern Kosovo reunited with Serbia) is not a realistic expectation.This would imply that Belgrade recognises an indepedent Kosovo but would also ensure that the rights of Serbs living there are protected.
Winston, I support you man, unfortunately the N. KiM Serbs don't. If they wanted nothing to do with Albanians in Kosovo, the N. KiM would have declared independence from Kosovo.
(icj1, 7 September 2011 02:55)
icj1,
US/NATO said that Kosovo division is out of question.
Who is forcing the students and teachers from their schools? Nobody, but the liers from Belgrade have brainwashed these poore people.
(Agim Kelmendi, 6 September 2011 16:13)
You know, a blogger on B92 mentioned long time ago, "A protest can be read by the people's faces"..
You can clearly see that these kids aren't being forced into anything. It's a wonderful thing. The young Albanians should learn a thing or two about peaceful protests.
Unlike the earlier 80's Pristina demonstrations by Albanian students, who were clearly pushing for a nationalist agenda taught from their households. This was far more worse than now.
what it does it take for you serbs to understand that Kosovo does not recognize belgrade's criminals and terrorist "parallel" structures?
Thanks,
(KOSO, 6 September 2011 17:56)
Sorry Koso....These kids were born in the province of Kosovo..They're not going anywhere. In fact, if you didn't force them out in '04, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Blame yourselves.
Serbs everywhere should blame themselfs for voting for Milosevic 20 years ago and countinued to support him for years , so it serb nation`s fault !!
(tony, 6 September 2011 22:26)
I'm sorry tony, Milosevic died a while back ago..He was a mere spot in Balkan history.
But yes, i agree, Serbs should be angered that they allowed the communists to rule..
For you see, during Milosevic's time, Serbian flags weren't allowed. Look closely at the picture. You don't see anything dealing with the stupid "brotherhood" star on them..
Thank goodness the real flag is back!!!!
Chalk one up for democracy Tony.
There wouldn't have been a Milosevic if the Albos from Kosovo didn't give reason for it..
Was this not what the Albanians proclaimed as the basis of their UDI? Why souldn't the Serbs in KiM be allowed the same?
(Winston, 6 September 2011 18:53)
The main legal argument which the Kosovar authorities put forward was to do with the fact that the Yugoslav government breached the right to rule over the Albanians of Kosovo because of the accused war crimes in the Kosovo War. Hence, they believe that they have the right to declare independence from the Serbs, since in international law, serious human rights-abuses constitute breaching your representation of people. The same argument was used by those supporting the Libyan rebels against al-Qaddafi, not to mention the rebels themselves, and also explains why they've received such vehement international support (even from the Russians).
So, from a legal perspective, again, Serbs in Northern Kosovo won't really have that opportunity unless the Pristina authorities start committing atrocities against the Serbs akin to what the Yugoslav security forces did in the late '90s - i.e., denying them the right to be educated in their own language, forced evictions, killings, whatever.
I'm not going to make any comments about these labels like "terrorists" which the Albanians like using to describe Serbs in Northern Kosovo fighting for their own rights (which is exactly what Albanians all over Kosovo did for pretty much the entire existence of Yugoslavia, so they have no right to complain), since I've never been to Northern Kosovo, and my knowledge of the treatment of Serbs is a result of my own research on the internet, and through hearsay. But from what I can tell, although the police forces representing Pristina have, time and time again, basically shown that they couldn't care any less about how Serbs live (a bus full of Serbs is stoned under their own Kosovar escort, yet they have to open an investigation as to who the perpetrators were... Really?), none of their actions really constitute grave human rights breaches. Most of the stuff done to Serbs in Kosovo are done by nationalist thugs, who are probably unemployed bums who have nothing better to do in life then exert their financial frustrations on people of a different ethnicity. They're in surplus across the Balkans, though, so I don't think it's exclusively an Albanian problem (they just don't know what subtle means).
"While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car. "
(Think about it., 7 September 2011 13:04)
The usual denial. In a similar case, there have been even perpetrators arrested - they only didn't get punish properly, as far as I know. If Kosovo would care, then the prosecutors would accuse the perpetrators for attempted murder and severely endangering traffic on roads, plus calling it an ethnic motivated crime. In normal countries, criminals who act like that and are caught can get into prison for some years. About the 'rock' flying up from a car driving in front of you: These are usually little pebbles, and surely not 'rocks' or 'stones' or bricks.
stephan,
not to be nitpicky, but i was wondering if your conclusion of how kosovar albanians were treated in the 90's by the serbian government is based upon firsthand knowledge or what you've read on internet or news paper, watched on televised news, and listened to hearsay. i ask this because if that is the case, i would ask you to either accept both sides of the story, 1990's serbs bad against albanians, and 2000s albanians bad against serbs (or both stories) as equally valid.
note, i'm not trying to spur an angry reaction, just wondering if you have the same fundemental understanding of both sides, but have a different level of acceptance.
From legal perspective Kosovo isn't independent since it wasn't recognized by United Nations as such. So Kosovo North Serbs have rights to behave as citisens of Serbia.
I do not understand why it is so hard for Albanians to understand that the Serbs in N. KiM do not acknowledge Pristina's UDI, and want nothing to do with them - just like Albanians in other parts of KiM rejected Belgrade. Do Albanians feel that the Serbs do not have the same right to choose?
(Winston, 6 September 2011 16:41)
Winston, I support you man, unfortunately the N. KiM Serbs don't. If they wanted nothing to do with Albanians in Kosovo, the N. KiM would have declared independence from Kosovo.
, although the police forces representing Pristina have, time and time again, basically shown that they couldn't care any less about how Serbs live (a bus full of Serbs is stoned under their own Kosovar escort, yet they have to open an investigation as to who the perpetrators were... Really?), none of their actions really constitute grave human rights breaches.
(Stefan, 7 September 2011 11:51)
I thought your post was very well written and put together. except for this part. Think about it I am assuming you are talking about the incident a couple of days ago. But think about it. According to the story it was a single rock, it was not reported that a group of people were gathered and throwing multiple rocks, common sense tells you that the rock was thrown and the perpetrator either ran or dashed behind something, no one reported seeing who through the rock. So what is the logical thing any police force would do other than open an investigation?
Arrest all Albanians within the area? that was the tactics in the 90's wasn't it?
While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car.
But the automatic assumption that this was an act committed by an Albanian means Serbia has not moved beyond the prejudices of the past. Think about it.
Its very funny that you bring the subject of propaganda,especially when your "government" kindly likes to brush over the fact that it is composed of members of a former terrorist organization,that it alone is responsible for over a third of civilian deaths during the kosovo civil war and that their "state" processes 80 percent of the world illigale heroin trade.
Yes i am sure the students truly want to live in such a place...
The main legal argument which the Kosovar authorities put forward was to do with the fact that the Yugoslav government breached the right to rule over the Albanians of Kosovo because of the accused war crimes in the Kosovo War. Hence, they believe that they have the right to declare independence from the Serbs, since in international law, serious human rights-abuses constitute breaching your representation of people.
(Stefan, 7 September 2011 11:51)
You got it all wrong. The ICJ never said that the Albanians had a right to declare independence because of human rights violations. Only one ICJ judge supported that position. There is no international law that gives the right to independence if human rights are violated.
The main arguments of the Albanians was that there is no provision in international law or 1244 which prohibited the Kosovo's UDI in Feb 2008 and hence the UDI is in accordance with international law. The ICJ agreed with that - end of the story.
I thought your post was very well written and put together. except for this part. Think about it I am assuming you are talking about the incident a couple of days ago. But think about it. According to the story it was a single rock, it was not reported that a group of people were gathered and throwing multiple rocks, common sense tells you that the rock was thrown and the perpetrator either ran or dashed behind something, no one reported seeing who through the rock. So what is the logical thing any police force would do other than open an investigation?
Arrest all Albanians within the area? that was the tactics in the 90's wasn't it?
While you do not directly say you know it was an Albanian responsible you have implied it.
Ever driven down a road and a rock fly up and hit your windshield from a car or truck in front of you? If not, I doubt you have ever driven a car.
But the automatic assumption that this was an act committed by an Albanian means Serbia has not moved beyond the prejudices of the past. Think about it.
(Think about it., 7 September 2011 13:04)
Well, I was actually talking about another incident which happened a few months ago which saw more than a couple of rocks being thrown at some bus full of Serbs heading towards a cemetery, on Djurdjevdan or some other occasion - it doesn't really matter, to be frank. The fact is, considering that a lot of the policemen who are now a part of the KPS fought for the KLA in the late '90s, I don't 'think' that their treatment of Serbs would be completely objective. I'm not stating that as a fact, I just think that it's a fair assumption, since a lot of Albanians in Kosovo would be apprehensive and suspicious of anything Serbian, since the '90s wasn't that far long ago. Besides, that was honestly more of a blanket statement rather than anything else, and the point of my post had more to do with using a breach of the R2P as justification for independence.
But, I agree with you on the part about Serbs and Albanians failing to move beyond past prejudices. It's just unfortunate and sad that it's a problem plaguing almost every ethnicity in the Balkans.
---
stephan,
not to be nitpicky, but i was wondering if your conclusion of how kosovar albanians were treated in the 90's by the serbian government is based upon firsthand knowledge or what you've read on internet or news paper, watched on televised news, and listened to hearsay. i ask this because if that is the case, i would ask you to either accept both sides of the story, 1990's serbs bad against albanians, and 2000s albanians bad against serbs (or both stories) as equally valid.
note, i'm not trying to spur an angry reaction, just wondering if you have the same fundemental understanding of both sides, but have a different level of acceptance.
(mirium, 7 September 2011 15:35)
Oh, I try to act and think as objectively as possible, without giving any specific preference to Serbs or Albanians. But to answer your question, pretty much everything I hear about Kosovo (both Serbs against Albanians, and Albanians against Serbs) is second-hand information. I've never been to Kosovo, so I'm not really prepared to make any bold declarations such as "Oh, Serbs are being ethnically-cleansed from Kosovo" based off a few comments by commenters on B92, and demographic statistics of Kosovo over a couple of decades, plus news articles. I just try and remain objective, and impart what knowledge I have of politics and the region to the scenario in discussion - in this case, the right to protect which every government is entrusted to, and when this right is breached.
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Stefan,
From legal perspective Kosovo isn't independent since it wasn't recognized by United Nations as such. So Kosovo North Serbs have rights to behave as citisens of Serbia.
(aaayyy, 7 September 2011 15:38)
I agree with you. But honestly, one's personal opinion on the validity of Kosovo's independence doesn't really matter in this case, which is why I think it's somewhat irrelevant to even talk about it. The broad message of my post was merely to point out one of the justifications which the Kosovar Albanians used in declaring independence - that Yugoslavia (and, thus, Serbia) breached the right to protect the Albanian minority in Yugoslavia, hence giving them the right to make a sovereign decision, as the Prishtina authorities were elected by the (Albanian) people of Kosovo. If Kosovo ever was to be fully accepted as a state by pretty much everyone on the planet (including Serbia - this is purely hypothetical), and if the Serbs in Northern Kosovo ever wanted to separate, then they only would do so if the Kosovar authorities breached that same right to protect which the Yugoslav authorities breached in the '90s.
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