Victims of Operation Storm remembered

So, let me understand the Serb position:
1) Serbs make war to seize Croatian territory to create a Greater Serbia
2) They ethnically cleanse (expell, kill and rape) the non Serb population; read Croatians
3) Croatia liberates the area in a defensive war with minimal material damage and loss of life (especially when compared to similar Serb conquests like Vukovar, Sarajevo etc.)
4) BUT the Serbs are ordered by their own leaders to evacuate the area
Hmmm...and now the Serbs want to return and receive compensation? How is this fair, moral or justified? Considering that these people are Serbs, I would have thought that being back in Serbia their homeland/motherland to which they have through pledged their faith and alligence (by deeds, support, spiritual, and material) they would finally feel at "home" and be happy to be in their ancestral lands finally.

...the Republic of Serb Krajina...

Which republic?

Strange, when it comes to Kosovo, Serbian newspapers try to put the word "province" as much as possible, even it sounds weird. And now look at this.

Anyway, this phantom republic has been destroyed. So who cares...

Sunman

1 Serbs were already living in that territory in majority of cases, it was their homeland
2 Serbs lost their jobs in state institutions and were discriminated against throughtout Tudjman's Croatia. Further we saw that in Slavonia and beyond before the war started Serbs were murdered
3 Croatian forces committed war crimes in Krajina and in other areas which is well documented
4 Serbs left Croatia because they feared for their lives, not just because Belgrade advised them to leave

Nowadays being a Serb is already a crime but times they are changing ! Very likely when we mark 20-th or 30-th anniversary of our defeat there will be a man of will in Serbia to stop the bacchanalia and replay the game. Hopefully my country will be by the side to return the Orthodox lands. Things may also change much sooner than one can expect today. Then the ustashists and the bosniashists and the usashits will pay for everything. Revenge is a cold dish isn't it ?

Today there are not ''republic of srpska'' in Croatia wich would hinder it's EU integration and positiv devolpment. Look at Bosnia it dosent even have a goverment

Few Serb criminals pick up arms and a little war was started.

However when Croatian army got training and better arms somehow the odds changed. Croatian artillery could reach Belgrade now, and Belgrade's political elite of that time let the Serb people from Croatia down. Yugoslav army didn't fight back but run away. And B92 was forced of air.

Why, is the big question Serbian people should ask themselves and ask for archives to be made public on B92 web site.

This is too bad for the Serbs but they have started that war and they lost it, and the loss includes Krajina.

What a stunning range of ignorant comments on show!

Before any fighting took place:

1) Tudjman rehabilitated the Ustasha war crimnals and many came home from latin america and elsewhere and had face time on tv;

2) Many serbs were forced to sign a 'Domovina' (sp?), a legal declaration of their loyalty to the 'state of croatia' on pain of being fired, pensions axed and being kicked out of their homes. I doubt any of you geniuses have seen one, but only serbs and other 'unreliable' non-croats were forced to sign. This still happend to many as anyone who knows non-pure croats (aka 'Yugoslavs') who live in Zagreb know;

3) Tudjman and his cronies backed the creation of the neo-Ustashi HOS paramilitary units who went in to the countryside and started attacking the serbs there with much help from 'neighbors'. Again, long before the serbs reacted;

4) Croatia only became legally recognized after the 'Badinter Commission' which was a western european legal bs to cover their asses so that they could intervene in the SFRY.

There's plenty more, but why bother? You golory in your world war two heroics and you deny the killing of over 700,000 serbs, jews and gypsies in your camps that even sicked the nazis.

We have to addmit that if operation Storm wouldn't have happened,Croatia will be like Bosnia,an unstable state and they should forget the EU integration.
So Croatians had two choise to shut up and make Croatia a state like Bonsia where Serbia(30% of population controls 50% of the country) does whatever they want,or to fight and make a stable Croatia well development state entering the EU.
They did the right thing.
You talk to serbs only after the show of the force, otherwise you will end up be their slaves like bosnians are.

ZZ I think you have a spelling error! Not ZZ but SS...
For sure you're an ustashist-f...t!
You're free to comment, but your mind is dark and smell evil.
I'm not Serbian neither from Balkans but as I followed the history the Croatia didn't change. Austro-Hungarian, hitler's ally now again US-Germany's puppet. And I hope you did forget that US was and still is behind all the operations against Serbs. Is not in vain that Croatia has the Germany's and Austria's backing regardless how evil you are.

Let me address the points by bganon:
1) Serbs were already living in that territory in majority of cases, it was their homeland.
Ok, then respect it. Why rebell against Croatia and create a Greater Serbia. Croatia even asked for EC assistance to help guarantee Serbs rights as citizens of Croatia. No matter what ethnic group you are from, you have to be citizens of the state you are in.
2 Serbs lost their jobs in state institutions and were discriminated against throughtout Tudjman's Croatia. Further we saw that in Slavonia and beyond before the war started Serbs were murdered
Croatian police were ambushed and killed, not Serbs murdered. Moreover, Serbs in Slavonia received arms from the JNA and Serb nationalist groups to prepare for war, not to participate as a citizens of a sovereign Croatia. Also poeple lose their jobs all the time. It is interesting that Serbs in Croatia had occupied the majority of management / leadership positions well beyond their proporational share of population. Yugosalvia was really Greater Serbia.
3 Croatian forces committed war crimes in Krajina and in other areas which is well documented
I don't condone any crimes, but these crimes were no where near the scale or brutality of what the Serbs initiated. Unfortunately they were committed out of retalliation; action, reaction. The war never should have happened.
4 Serbs left Croatia because they feared for their lives, not just because Belgrade advised them to leave
They left Croatia because of fear true...but the fear was based on guilt and failure of the Greater Serbia project. By choosing war the Serbs turned against Croatia, and now that the area was liberated and back in Croatian hands the Serbs chose not to live in Croatia. Terrible things occurred during the war (a war which was preventable and never should have happened)in the quest for a Greater Serbia.
(bganon, 4 August 2011 16:02)

Bganon

1 So were Croats: don't pretend this was some homogeneous Serb territory: 36% of those in "Krajina" territory were Croats in 1991; by 1992, that number dropped to 7%. Serbs on the otherhand, went from 52% to 88% in that time period.
2 Same thing happened to Croats under Milosevic, Babic, and Hadzic.
3 Serbian forces committed far more horrific war crimes throughout 1991-95 such as leveling Vukovar, Ovcara massacre, Skabrnja massacre, Kijevo expulsion, Dubrovnik bombing, Erdut murders, Sibenik attack, Saborsko massacre, Siroka Kula massacre, Bacin massacre, Vocin massacre, Bruska massacre, just a few to look up. The time period and amount far outweigh August 1995 crimes
4 Why did they fear for their lives? Because they spent 5 years fighting against and killing the very people who were now coming to take back the land? Because they knew the army was full of very angry and vengeful Croatian soldiers, many whose towns were affected by the war and family members/friends were killed?

Look, I'm not saying war is fair. It's not. The fact of the matter remains this: Croatians see their side of the story, Serbians see their own. Croats don't care about Serb suffering because they view it as either revenge or an unfortunate incident in an otherwise brilliant military operation. Serbs don't care about Croat suffering because they deserved it after WWII, or Serbs were still so frightened they had to do anything to make sure Croats dont kill them first.

Zena, remember Croatia, Bosnian Muslim and kalbos never own anything. They have never fought their own war. They needed the help of. The world powers to bail their ass's out of their losing wars with the Serbs.

Shame on all those who drove out the ancestors of Nikola Tesla from their historic homeland. These people knew the darkness in your hearts, your past deeds, and took up arms to try to prevent what happened to them. They were right all along . Before you get all emotional about your power and strength, remember that it’s easy to fight when all the big boys are helping you. Retired US generals, Nato bombs and satellite spy photos might not always be there for you.

To some, it’s a phantom republic, to them it was their home. For this reason, the issue will never die no matter what. The desired policy for expelling Serbs has a long tradition in some Croat circles.

I’ll reply to “Sunman” as he seems to be the most articulate of the croat contributors.
Serbs did not take your Croat territory. If they live there and are the largest ethnic group in that area, then according to your own logic (re; Kosovo) it is not Croat territory.
Overly generous Pre war Banovina’s where consolidated into present day borders
by your native son and post ww2 dictator, Tito.
Serbs wanted the same right of sucession from Croatia as Croats did from Yugo.
The initial provocations began with Tudjmans rhetoric followed by mass firings from government jobs followed by withholding of pensions followed by police initiated harassment. This was intended to give the Serb population notice of what to expect. Given the history from 1942-45, what should they have done?
Using the term defensive to describe “Storm” is perverse. There was no “minimal” here. When you enter into thousands dead and hundreds of thousands ethnically cleansed, the expression “minimal” ca only be followed by cynical.The lines were stagnant at that time and UN mediation was constant. Solutions could have been found without the killing of so many innocent civilians. I can’t understand how one has the heart to kill all those elderly folks. If the killing and mistreatment of elderly and innocent Croatians in Vukovar was wrong as well. Why then is this not?
So if Serbs ordered an evacuation, then the did it to themselves? And pray tell, why would they be ordering such an evacuation? With artillery shells falling all around them, I’d say someone is certainly motivating you.
Their ancestral lands are where they have lived for the past five centuries. Why shouldn’t they stay and keep their faith. You shouldn’t be forced to abandon your home, whether in Medak or Gospic or Vukovar or wherever. If they take your land to build a highway, you get paid. If they take your land by gunpoint, you get your land back and you get compensation. There are no winners here.
I have found that many Croats, especially emigres will only consider issues in terms of black and white. Meaning Croats or Croatia never does anything wrong. Croat soldier never got a parking ticket let alone killed someone. Any kind of fraternization with the enemy was prohibited. All roads led to independence and only that. Brotherhood and Unity was for those stupid Serbs to follow while Croats held dances and bake sales, waiting for that glorious day of freedom. The fact is, many Serbs are happy too. Being the masters of one own house is preferable for all. It’s too hard to build a state with a cancer within and a fifth column that has turned on you in the past. I’ll stand by my nations history and let time be the judge.

...the Republic of Serb Krajina...

Which republic?

Strange, when it comes to Kosovo, Serbian newspapers try to put the word "province" as much as possible, even it sounds weird. And now look at this.

Anyway, this phantom republic has been destroyed. So who cares...
(Guest, 4 August 2011, 12:31)

"So who cares"is the one question You most likely wont have the answer to in this life. However,in this life you just might could learn that in this world of sorrow,no grins last for long.Things always change,nothing stays the same,and shit happens. My advice to all deluded sinners that I meet is the usual: Make it right with the Lord and your neighbors,or ...

Hmmm...and now the Serbs want to return and receive compensation? How is this fair, moral or justified? Considering that these people are Serbs, I would have thought that being back in Serbia their homeland/motherland to which they have through pledged their faith and alligence (by deeds, support, spiritual, and material) they would finally feel at "home" and be happy to be in their ancestral lands finally.
(Sunman, 4 August 2011 13:38)

Because home's home. A lot of the Serbs in that region (including my ancestors) had lived there for centuries, since the times when the Austrian Empire set up the military frontier for protection against the Ottoman Empire. My family had relatively little to do with Serbia. Besides, tell that to my frail and ill grandparents who, fearful of potential retaliatory attacks by Croatian forces following the defeat of the Republika Srpska Krajina, had no choice but to pack up their things and leave the homes that they had lived in for their entire lives for relative safety, along with thousands of others weak and elderly people who were simply added onto the victim list of the tragedy of the '90s.

On the other hand, though, that wouldn't have happened had the Republika Srpska Krajina not taken up arms against Croatia. Remember, defence usually means that you're being attacked, and apart from isolated incidents by nationalists in the lead up to Croatian independence (like there aren't Serbs who act like idiots), there was no attempt to "cleanse" the Serbs from Croatia. Taking their label out of the Constitution doesn't count.

Visit croatia, the only ethnically pure "nation" in Europe.

Yes the Serbs were betrayed by the remaining Yugo government. But Croatia wad trying to create a greater Croatia out of Bosnia also. As for operation storm, leave it to the croatians of that time to attack a retreating army and defenseless civilians being ethnically cleaned from their homes.

Any murder of civilians has to be remembered and prosecuted, on ALL SIDES. Having said that, the apparent Serbian position on the "krajina" is both immature and hypocritical. According to UNSCR Resolution 753, any territory occupied by the "krajina" was recognized under international law as Croatia. As a member of the UN, Croatia received the right to full sovereignty of it's internationally recognized territory. "Krajina", which btw was never recognized as anything more than an illegal occupation, refused to negotiate and therefore had to be dealt with in military means, no different than Kosovo in 1999. So when Serbia enforces international law in Kosovo in 1999 that was legitimate, but when Croatia rightfully enforced international law during it's recovery of it's own recognized territory...it's not? Pot calling the kettle back? Does international law selectively chose who gets sovereignty? I would like to know.

ZZ - Immigrants should be citizens of the country they immigrated to. I understand the history of the region. Serbs cite WWII, and Croats will cite that other provocative events and situations that threatened there lives and freedom by Serbs; to whom do we assign the original sin; as Croat I believe my country is sacred and people living there of any ethnicity should be part of the country and contribute to its integrity and sovereignty; that means being a citizen and not a traitor or a 'fifth' colunm of another colonizing country. There is lot of 'bad-blood' between Croats and Serbs, unfortunately. If you think about it we could and may still be great neighnours and partners, but only through mutual respect. There was a chance for a peacefull solution, but it didn't come to pass. My issue is that Greater Serbia ideology has never been reputiated and seriously examined as a driving force of the war. We as a region and people need a truth and reconciliation commission to help Below is an excerpt of a recent article:

"Operation Storm marked the end of the war in Croatia, created conditions for the peaceful reintegration of the Danube River Region in the east, spared Bosnia's Bihac from the fate of Srebrenica, and enabled the return of refugees and displaced persons.

The 5 August 1995 liberation of the southern town of Knin carried special significance because this town had been the centre and symbol of the Serb rebellion since the summer of 1990.

The rebellion began with the blocking of roads with logs and in time turned into brutal attacks on Croatian towns and villages and the killing and expulsion of non-Serbs. The local Serbs were helped by the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA), while troops and weaponry also came from Serbia and Montenegro.

The Serbs said they were rebelling because they were in danger, but time and events showed that the reason for the rebellion was the creation of a Greater Serbia through the creation of a self-styled statelet, the Republic of Serb Krajina, and the ethnic cleansing of occupied parts of Croatia.

Years of attempts to peacefully reintegrate those areas had proved futile. In Geneva, only a day before Operation Storm was launched, representatives of rebel Serbs rejected yet another offer by the Croatian authorities to settle the problem peacefully."

Marcus, as they were being expelled from their lands the fascist Croatian army shelled them as the retreated. Killing civilians.

Strictly speaking Croatia didn't have right to separate in the border of former Croatian republic of YU because it had Serbian enclaves which didn't want to separate. BTW former YU Croatia was republic of two peoples - Croats and Serbs, so opinions of both of them should have counted when such important issue as separation from YU was under consideration.

So when Serbia enforces international law in Kosovo in 1999 that was legitimate, but when Croatia rightfully enforced international law during it's recovery of it's own recognized territory...it's not? Pot calling the kettle back? Does international law selectively chose who gets sovereignty? I would like to know.
(Marcus, 4 August 2011 21:40)

You want to play semantics, here is the difference – any country has the right to enforce its laws, but it has no right to use unreasonable or excessive force let alone murder unarmed civilians. In Kosovo it was mostly paramilitrtary units that went on a burning spree but they were far and few between them – not the army, but it was the Croatian army that shelled or ran over civilians with tanks that was the problem. The Croats were so proud of this fact they filmed their actions – hello!!!!!

If you want another lecture in law contact me anytime

We have to addmit that if operation Storm wouldn't have happened,Croatia will be like Bosnia,an unstable state and they should forget the EU integration.
So Croatians had two choise to shut up and make Croatia a state like Bonsia where Serbia(30% of population controls 50% of the country) does whatever they want,or to fight and make a stable Croatia well development state entering the EU.
They did the right thing.
You talk to serbs only after the show of the force, otherwise you will end up be their slaves like bosnians are.
(Mirel from Albania, 4 August 2011 17:21)

So you agree that a state has rights to make ethnic cleaning in the sake of stability. Good. Do you believe all states have such rights or only Croatia?

Marcus, as they were being expelled from their lands the fascist Croatian army shelled them as the retreated. Killing civilians.
(Dennis, 4 August 2011 22:58)

Oh, so now the UN member nation are fascists? Source please? So what were Mladic, Babic, and Milosevic? Tree-huggers?


Oh yeah, poor innocent civilians. I'm sure they weren't setting up log revolutions or burning Catholic churches for the last 5 years. Where was the brave RSK army that Baja Mali Knindza always sang about? Don't tell me they collapsed in less than 24 hours and ran away!

Thank You Mara,
Now we are talking about mutual distrust and fear. Absolutely at the heart of the matter. Would you agree that foreign meddling didn't help and how do the two sides get past that. In the end both sides were able to justify their mistrust and fear by what happened on the ground. The ultimate
question I think is who gained by it all?

Incredible how many non-serb posters come on to these sites to spew their venom (especially after operation Storm, the largest ethnic cleasing event since WWII). You must think they're getting paid to sit by their computers and write this stuff.

To all the Croatian deniers that nothing was wrong with operation storm.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/apr/15/croatian-general-jailed-war-crimes

"a landmark verdict that incriminated the entire Zagreb political leadership of the time for waging a campaign of terror, bombing and murder aimed at ridding the country of its large Serbian minority."

The entire ex-yu conflict is complicated and full of hypocrisy and interest. The simpleton non-serb posters try to make the situation black and white. Not taking away from other ethnic group legitimate claims, to say Serbian claims are less legitimate is deplorable and shows you are not someone worth wasting breathe on debating with.

It is really funny, almost all Serbs I know react the same way initially when I advocate for Operation Storm. And yet how different your tune would change if I copy and pasted my initial "International Law" argument but replaced "UNSCR 753" with "UNSCR 1244" and "krajina" with "Kosovo".
;)

So when Serbia enforces international law in Kosovo in 1999 that was legitimate, but when Croatia rightfully enforced international law during it's recovery of it's own recognized territory...it's not? Pot calling the kettle back? Does international law selectively chose who gets sovereignty? I would like to know.
(Marcus, 4 August 2011 21:40)

Marcus, as far as I understand you supported Serbian attempt to enforce international law in Kosovo in 1999 - am I right?

The problem is that Serbia lost both Krajina and Kosovo and now it is a victim side of the war, which will be awaiting for favorable conditions to restore justice somehow.

IMHO Krajina was abandoned by Serbian forces in exchange of Republica Srpska in Bosnia.

Sunmam you are delusional

lets get the croatian postion start a war in the balkans because of unfinished business in ww2 didnt kill eoungh serbs then and lost the war.So start a new war as a result create a country that never existed in history on stealing serbian Krajina and the coast which is historically italian. Suman are you kidding only croatia got a new country with the support of the USA dont worry about serbia you dont have a chance to kill us again start worrying how you are going to pay back USA and Germany

Oh you Croatians, for shame. While their were tensions all around and a war was going on (people die, sieges happen, things that one doesn't normally experience occur) you chose the wrong side.You alingned yourself with Islamo-Facists and against a people defending Christianity. A religion you choose to worship (with its minor descrepincies and differences). Why you basically sided with the Terrorists to achieve a mere status as a state is beyond me. Now with us Christians divided they can attempt to destroy us one at a time. We would have been much stronger had we collaborated in defending Jugoslavia, our land, as we had done with the Austrians, Bulgars, and Ottomans (Note: Not the Nazi's, you sided with them while we tried our best to defeat our interal and external wars vs. Communism, Bulgaria, Ottoman Empire, Germany, Italy, and more recently Nato and the rest of the world) .I wish we could have made amends but I see this can never happen. We could have had the best sports teams in the world (for what thats worth), the strongest miltary, the best Country, we would have shown the world the true face of Christendom but you were comfortable within the confines of your own ignorance. It would have been better if you stuck with us, but now we despise each other and the greater enemy of the "Parasite". While this would be a dream world, together with Crna Gora, Macedonia, Slovenia we would be the best. Instead we let our own personal interests and foreign evil doers interfere, weaken us and tear us apart. A tradgedy worth of a Shakespear play.

So, let me understand the Serb position:
1) Serbs make war to seize Croatian territory to create a Greater Serbia
2) They ethnically cleanse (expell, kill and rape) the non Serb population; read Croatians
3) Croatia liberates the area in a defensive war with minimal material damage and loss of life (especially when compared to similar Serb conquests like Vukovar, Sarajevo etc.)
4) BUT the Serbs are ordered by their own leaders to evacuate the area
Hmmm...and now the Serbs want to return and receive compensation? How is this fair, moral or justified? Considering that these people are Serbs, I would have thought that being back in Serbia their homeland/motherland to which they have through pledged their faith and alligence (by deeds, support, spiritual, and material) they would finally feel at "home" and be happy to be in their ancestral lands finally.

...the Republic of Serb Krajina...

Which republic?

Strange, when it comes to Kosovo, Serbian newspapers try to put the word "province" as much as possible, even it sounds weird. And now look at this.

Anyway, this phantom republic has been destroyed. So who cares...

This is too bad for the Serbs but they have started that war and they lost it, and the loss includes Krajina.

Few Serb criminals pick up arms and a little war was started.

However when Croatian army got training and better arms somehow the odds changed. Croatian artillery could reach Belgrade now, and Belgrade's political elite of that time let the Serb people from Croatia down. Yugoslav army didn't fight back but run away. And B92 was forced of air.

Why, is the big question Serbian people should ask themselves and ask for archives to be made public on B92 web site.

Shame on all those who drove out the ancestors of Nikola Tesla from their historic homeland. These people knew the darkness in your hearts, your past deeds, and took up arms to try to prevent what happened to them. They were right all along . Before you get all emotional about your power and strength, remember that it’s easy to fight when all the big boys are helping you. Retired US generals, Nato bombs and satellite spy photos might not always be there for you.

To some, it’s a phantom republic, to them it was their home. For this reason, the issue will never die no matter what. The desired policy for expelling Serbs has a long tradition in some Croat circles.

I’ll reply to “Sunman” as he seems to be the most articulate of the croat contributors.
Serbs did not take your Croat territory. If they live there and are the largest ethnic group in that area, then according to your own logic (re; Kosovo) it is not Croat territory.
Overly generous Pre war Banovina’s where consolidated into present day borders
by your native son and post ww2 dictator, Tito.
Serbs wanted the same right of sucession from Croatia as Croats did from Yugo.
The initial provocations began with Tudjmans rhetoric followed by mass firings from government jobs followed by withholding of pensions followed by police initiated harassment. This was intended to give the Serb population notice of what to expect. Given the history from 1942-45, what should they have done?
Using the term defensive to describe “Storm” is perverse. There was no “minimal” here. When you enter into thousands dead and hundreds of thousands ethnically cleansed, the expression “minimal” ca only be followed by cynical.The lines were stagnant at that time and UN mediation was constant. Solutions could have been found without the killing of so many innocent civilians. I can’t understand how one has the heart to kill all those elderly folks. If the killing and mistreatment of elderly and innocent Croatians in Vukovar was wrong as well. Why then is this not?
So if Serbs ordered an evacuation, then the did it to themselves? And pray tell, why would they be ordering such an evacuation? With artillery shells falling all around them, I’d say someone is certainly motivating you.
Their ancestral lands are where they have lived for the past five centuries. Why shouldn’t they stay and keep their faith. You shouldn’t be forced to abandon your home, whether in Medak or Gospic or Vukovar or wherever. If they take your land to build a highway, you get paid. If they take your land by gunpoint, you get your land back and you get compensation. There are no winners here.
I have found that many Croats, especially emigres will only consider issues in terms of black and white. Meaning Croats or Croatia never does anything wrong. Croat soldier never got a parking ticket let alone killed someone. Any kind of fraternization with the enemy was prohibited. All roads led to independence and only that. Brotherhood and Unity was for those stupid Serbs to follow while Croats held dances and bake sales, waiting for that glorious day of freedom. The fact is, many Serbs are happy too. Being the masters of one own house is preferable for all. It’s too hard to build a state with a cancer within and a fifth column that has turned on you in the past. I’ll stand by my nations history and let time be the judge.

Yes the Serbs were betrayed by the remaining Yugo government. But Croatia wad trying to create a greater Croatia out of Bosnia also. As for operation storm, leave it to the croatians of that time to attack a retreating army and defenseless civilians being ethnically cleaned from their homes.

Today there are not ''republic of srpska'' in Croatia wich would hinder it's EU integration and positiv devolpment. Look at Bosnia it dosent even have a goverment

We have to addmit that if operation Storm wouldn't have happened,Croatia will be like Bosnia,an unstable state and they should forget the EU integration.
So Croatians had two choise to shut up and make Croatia a state like Bonsia where Serbia(30% of population controls 50% of the country) does whatever they want,or to fight and make a stable Croatia well development state entering the EU.
They did the right thing.
You talk to serbs only after the show of the force, otherwise you will end up be their slaves like bosnians are.

Visit croatia, the only ethnically pure "nation" in Europe.

Sunman

1 Serbs were already living in that territory in majority of cases, it was their homeland
2 Serbs lost their jobs in state institutions and were discriminated against throughtout Tudjman's Croatia. Further we saw that in Slavonia and beyond before the war started Serbs were murdered
3 Croatian forces committed war crimes in Krajina and in other areas which is well documented
4 Serbs left Croatia because they feared for their lives, not just because Belgrade advised them to leave

Let me address the points by bganon:
1) Serbs were already living in that territory in majority of cases, it was their homeland.
Ok, then respect it. Why rebell against Croatia and create a Greater Serbia. Croatia even asked for EC assistance to help guarantee Serbs rights as citizens of Croatia. No matter what ethnic group you are from, you have to be citizens of the state you are in.
2 Serbs lost their jobs in state institutions and were discriminated against throughtout Tudjman's Croatia. Further we saw that in Slavonia and beyond before the war started Serbs were murdered
Croatian police were ambushed and killed, not Serbs murdered. Moreover, Serbs in Slavonia received arms from the JNA and Serb nationalist groups to prepare for war, not to participate as a citizens of a sovereign Croatia. Also poeple lose their jobs all the time. It is interesting that Serbs in Croatia had occupied the majority of management / leadership positions well beyond their proporational share of population. Yugosalvia was really Greater Serbia.
3 Croatian forces committed war crimes in Krajina and in other areas which is well documented
I don't condone any crimes, but these crimes were no where near the scale or brutality of what the Serbs initiated. Unfortunately they were committed out of retalliation; action, reaction. The war never should have happened.
4 Serbs left Croatia because they feared for their lives, not just because Belgrade advised them to leave
They left Croatia because of fear true...but the fear was based on guilt and failure of the Greater Serbia project. By choosing war the Serbs turned against Croatia, and now that the area was liberated and back in Croatian hands the Serbs chose not to live in Croatia. Terrible things occurred during the war (a war which was preventable and never should have happened)in the quest for a Greater Serbia.
(bganon, 4 August 2011 16:02)

Zena, remember Croatia, Bosnian Muslim and kalbos never own anything. They have never fought their own war. They needed the help of. The world powers to bail their ass's out of their losing wars with the Serbs.

So when Serbia enforces international law in Kosovo in 1999 that was legitimate, but when Croatia rightfully enforced international law during it's recovery of it's own recognized territory...it's not? Pot calling the kettle back? Does international law selectively chose who gets sovereignty? I would like to know.
(Marcus, 4 August 2011 21:40)

You want to play semantics, here is the difference – any country has the right to enforce its laws, but it has no right to use unreasonable or excessive force let alone murder unarmed civilians. In Kosovo it was mostly paramilitrtary units that went on a burning spree but they were far and few between them – not the army, but it was the Croatian army that shelled or ran over civilians with tanks that was the problem. The Croats were so proud of this fact they filmed their actions – hello!!!!!

If you want another lecture in law contact me anytime

Marcus, as they were being expelled from their lands the fascist Croatian army shelled them as the retreated. Killing civilians.

Strictly speaking Croatia didn't have right to separate in the border of former Croatian republic of YU because it had Serbian enclaves which didn't want to separate. BTW former YU Croatia was republic of two peoples - Croats and Serbs, so opinions of both of them should have counted when such important issue as separation from YU was under consideration.

Bganon

1 So were Croats: don't pretend this was some homogeneous Serb territory: 36% of those in "Krajina" territory were Croats in 1991; by 1992, that number dropped to 7%. Serbs on the otherhand, went from 52% to 88% in that time period.
2 Same thing happened to Croats under Milosevic, Babic, and Hadzic.
3 Serbian forces committed far more horrific war crimes throughout 1991-95 such as leveling Vukovar, Ovcara massacre, Skabrnja massacre, Kijevo expulsion, Dubrovnik bombing, Erdut murders, Sibenik attack, Saborsko massacre, Siroka Kula massacre, Bacin massacre, Vocin massacre, Bruska massacre, just a few to look up. The time period and amount far outweigh August 1995 crimes
4 Why did they fear for their lives? Because they spent 5 years fighting against and killing the very people who were now coming to take back the land? Because they knew the army was full of very angry and vengeful Croatian soldiers, many whose towns were affected by the war and family members/friends were killed?

Look, I'm not saying war is fair. It's not. The fact of the matter remains this: Croatians see their side of the story, Serbians see their own. Croats don't care about Serb suffering because they view it as either revenge or an unfortunate incident in an otherwise brilliant military operation. Serbs don't care about Croat suffering because they deserved it after WWII, or Serbs were still so frightened they had to do anything to make sure Croats dont kill them first.

Marcus, as they were being expelled from their lands the fascist Croatian army shelled them as the retreated. Killing civilians.
(Dennis, 4 August 2011 22:58)

Oh, so now the UN member nation are fascists? Source please? So what were Mladic, Babic, and Milosevic? Tree-huggers?


Oh yeah, poor innocent civilians. I'm sure they weren't setting up log revolutions or burning Catholic churches for the last 5 years. Where was the brave RSK army that Baja Mali Knindza always sang about? Don't tell me they collapsed in less than 24 hours and ran away!

ZZ I think you have a spelling error! Not ZZ but SS...
For sure you're an ustashist-f...t!
You're free to comment, but your mind is dark and smell evil.
I'm not Serbian neither from Balkans but as I followed the history the Croatia didn't change. Austro-Hungarian, hitler's ally now again US-Germany's puppet. And I hope you did forget that US was and still is behind all the operations against Serbs. Is not in vain that Croatia has the Germany's and Austria's backing regardless how evil you are.

Nowadays being a Serb is already a crime but times they are changing ! Very likely when we mark 20-th or 30-th anniversary of our defeat there will be a man of will in Serbia to stop the bacchanalia and replay the game. Hopefully my country will be by the side to return the Orthodox lands. Things may also change much sooner than one can expect today. Then the ustashists and the bosniashists and the usashits will pay for everything. Revenge is a cold dish isn't it ?

ZZ - Immigrants should be citizens of the country they immigrated to. I understand the history of the region. Serbs cite WWII, and Croats will cite that other provocative events and situations that threatened there lives and freedom by Serbs; to whom do we assign the original sin; as Croat I believe my country is sacred and people living there of any ethnicity should be part of the country and contribute to its integrity and sovereignty; that means being a citizen and not a traitor or a 'fifth' colunm of another colonizing country. There is lot of 'bad-blood' between Croats and Serbs, unfortunately. If you think about it we could and may still be great neighnours and partners, but only through mutual respect. There was a chance for a peacefull solution, but it didn't come to pass. My issue is that Greater Serbia ideology has never been reputiated and seriously examined as a driving force of the war. We as a region and people need a truth and reconciliation commission to help Below is an excerpt of a recent article:

"Operation Storm marked the end of the war in Croatia, created conditions for the peaceful reintegration of the Danube River Region in the east, spared Bosnia's Bihac from the fate of Srebrenica, and enabled the return of refugees and displaced persons.

The 5 August 1995 liberation of the southern town of Knin carried special significance because this town had been the centre and symbol of the Serb rebellion since the summer of 1990.

The rebellion began with the blocking of roads with logs and in time turned into brutal attacks on Croatian towns and villages and the killing and expulsion of non-Serbs. The local Serbs were helped by the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA), while troops and weaponry also came from Serbia and Montenegro.

The Serbs said they were rebelling because they were in danger, but time and events showed that the reason for the rebellion was the creation of a Greater Serbia through the creation of a self-styled statelet, the Republic of Serb Krajina, and the ethnic cleansing of occupied parts of Croatia.

Years of attempts to peacefully reintegrate those areas had proved futile. In Geneva, only a day before Operation Storm was launched, representatives of rebel Serbs rejected yet another offer by the Croatian authorities to settle the problem peacefully."

What a stunning range of ignorant comments on show!

Before any fighting took place:

1) Tudjman rehabilitated the Ustasha war crimnals and many came home from latin america and elsewhere and had face time on tv;

2) Many serbs were forced to sign a 'Domovina' (sp?), a legal declaration of their loyalty to the 'state of croatia' on pain of being fired, pensions axed and being kicked out of their homes. I doubt any of you geniuses have seen one, but only serbs and other 'unreliable' non-croats were forced to sign. This still happend to many as anyone who knows non-pure croats (aka 'Yugoslavs') who live in Zagreb know;

3) Tudjman and his cronies backed the creation of the neo-Ustashi HOS paramilitary units who went in to the countryside and started attacking the serbs there with much help from 'neighbors'. Again, long before the serbs reacted;

4) Croatia only became legally recognized after the 'Badinter Commission' which was a western european legal bs to cover their asses so that they could intervene in the SFRY.

There's plenty more, but why bother? You golory in your world war two heroics and you deny the killing of over 700,000 serbs, jews and gypsies in your camps that even sicked the nazis.

Incredible how many non-serb posters come on to these sites to spew their venom (especially after operation Storm, the largest ethnic cleasing event since WWII). You must think they're getting paid to sit by their computers and write this stuff.

To all the Croatian deniers that nothing was wrong with operation storm.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/apr/15/croatian-general-jailed-war-crimes

"a landmark verdict that incriminated the entire Zagreb political leadership of the time for waging a campaign of terror, bombing and murder aimed at ridding the country of its large Serbian minority."

The entire ex-yu conflict is complicated and full of hypocrisy and interest. The simpleton non-serb posters try to make the situation black and white. Not taking away from other ethnic group legitimate claims, to say Serbian claims are less legitimate is deplorable and shows you are not someone worth wasting breathe on debating with.

Thank You Mara,
Now we are talking about mutual distrust and fear. Absolutely at the heart of the matter. Would you agree that foreign meddling didn't help and how do the two sides get past that. In the end both sides were able to justify their mistrust and fear by what happened on the ground. The ultimate
question I think is who gained by it all?

It is really funny, almost all Serbs I know react the same way initially when I advocate for Operation Storm. And yet how different your tune would change if I copy and pasted my initial "International Law" argument but replaced "UNSCR 753" with "UNSCR 1244" and "krajina" with "Kosovo".
;)

...the Republic of Serb Krajina...

Which republic?

Strange, when it comes to Kosovo, Serbian newspapers try to put the word "province" as much as possible, even it sounds weird. And now look at this.

Anyway, this phantom republic has been destroyed. So who cares...
(Guest, 4 August 2011, 12:31)

"So who cares"is the one question You most likely wont have the answer to in this life. However,in this life you just might could learn that in this world of sorrow,no grins last for long.Things always change,nothing stays the same,and shit happens. My advice to all deluded sinners that I meet is the usual: Make it right with the Lord and your neighbors,or ...

Any murder of civilians has to be remembered and prosecuted, on ALL SIDES. Having said that, the apparent Serbian position on the "krajina" is both immature and hypocritical. According to UNSCR Resolution 753, any territory occupied by the "krajina" was recognized under international law as Croatia. As a member of the UN, Croatia received the right to full sovereignty of it's internationally recognized territory. "Krajina", which btw was never recognized as anything more than an illegal occupation, refused to negotiate and therefore had to be dealt with in military means, no different than Kosovo in 1999. So when Serbia enforces international law in Kosovo in 1999 that was legitimate, but when Croatia rightfully enforced international law during it's recovery of it's own recognized territory...it's not? Pot calling the kettle back? Does international law selectively chose who gets sovereignty? I would like to know.

We have to addmit that if operation Storm wouldn't have happened,Croatia will be like Bosnia,an unstable state and they should forget the EU integration.
So Croatians had two choise to shut up and make Croatia a state like Bonsia where Serbia(30% of population controls 50% of the country) does whatever they want,or to fight and make a stable Croatia well development state entering the EU.
They did the right thing.
You talk to serbs only after the show of the force, otherwise you will end up be their slaves like bosnians are.
(Mirel from Albania, 4 August 2011 17:21)

So you agree that a state has rights to make ethnic cleaning in the sake of stability. Good. Do you believe all states have such rights or only Croatia?

Hmmm...and now the Serbs want to return and receive compensation? How is this fair, moral or justified? Considering that these people are Serbs, I would have thought that being back in Serbia their homeland/motherland to which they have through pledged their faith and alligence (by deeds, support, spiritual, and material) they would finally feel at "home" and be happy to be in their ancestral lands finally.
(Sunman, 4 August 2011 13:38)

Because home's home. A lot of the Serbs in that region (including my ancestors) had lived there for centuries, since the times when the Austrian Empire set up the military frontier for protection against the Ottoman Empire. My family had relatively little to do with Serbia. Besides, tell that to my frail and ill grandparents who, fearful of potential retaliatory attacks by Croatian forces following the defeat of the Republika Srpska Krajina, had no choice but to pack up their things and leave the homes that they had lived in for their entire lives for relative safety, along with thousands of others weak and elderly people who were simply added onto the victim list of the tragedy of the '90s.

On the other hand, though, that wouldn't have happened had the Republika Srpska Krajina not taken up arms against Croatia. Remember, defence usually means that you're being attacked, and apart from isolated incidents by nationalists in the lead up to Croatian independence (like there aren't Serbs who act like idiots), there was no attempt to "cleanse" the Serbs from Croatia. Taking their label out of the Constitution doesn't count.

Oh you Croatians, for shame. While their were tensions all around and a war was going on (people die, sieges happen, things that one doesn't normally experience occur) you chose the wrong side.You alingned yourself with Islamo-Facists and against a people defending Christianity. A religion you choose to worship (with its minor descrepincies and differences). Why you basically sided with the Terrorists to achieve a mere status as a state is beyond me. Now with us Christians divided they can attempt to destroy us one at a time. We would have been much stronger had we collaborated in defending Jugoslavia, our land, as we had done with the Austrians, Bulgars, and Ottomans (Note: Not the Nazi's, you sided with them while we tried our best to defeat our interal and external wars vs. Communism, Bulgaria, Ottoman Empire, Germany, Italy, and more recently Nato and the rest of the world) .I wish we could have made amends but I see this can never happen. We could have had the best sports teams in the world (for what thats worth), the strongest miltary, the best Country, we would have shown the world the true face of Christendom but you were comfortable within the confines of your own ignorance. It would have been better if you stuck with us, but now we despise each other and the greater enemy of the "Parasite". While this would be a dream world, together with Crna Gora, Macedonia, Slovenia we would be the best. Instead we let our own personal interests and foreign evil doers interfere, weaken us and tear us apart. A tradgedy worth of a Shakespear play.

So when Serbia enforces international law in Kosovo in 1999 that was legitimate, but when Croatia rightfully enforced international law during it's recovery of it's own recognized territory...it's not? Pot calling the kettle back? Does international law selectively chose who gets sovereignty? I would like to know.
(Marcus, 4 August 2011 21:40)

Marcus, as far as I understand you supported Serbian attempt to enforce international law in Kosovo in 1999 - am I right?

The problem is that Serbia lost both Krajina and Kosovo and now it is a victim side of the war, which will be awaiting for favorable conditions to restore justice somehow.

IMHO Krajina was abandoned by Serbian forces in exchange of Republica Srpska in Bosnia.

Sunmam you are delusional

lets get the croatian postion start a war in the balkans because of unfinished business in ww2 didnt kill eoungh serbs then and lost the war.So start a new war as a result create a country that never existed in history on stealing serbian Krajina and the coast which is historically italian. Suman are you kidding only croatia got a new country with the support of the USA dont worry about serbia you dont have a chance to kill us again start worrying how you are going to pay back USA and Germany