Serbia arrests remaining Hague fugitive

Goran Hadžić was leader of the Krajina Serbs. The Krajina Serbs lived on land that miserable Croats like Lenard claim to be part of Croatia. The Krajina Serbs have now been exterminated by Croats armed and aided by both the Nazis and NATO.

Now one of the victims of this holocaust is to be “tried” for war crimes.

While they are at it, they should also arrest some elderly Jews for littering German streets with shards of glass from their broken shop windows following Kristallnacht.

Lenard, you are some piece of work.
Does anything ever satisfy you? I think you would not rest until all Serbs are exterminated throughout the world.
So much evil and venom inside one person.

Thankyou Michael Thomas for your very good comment. Your sarcasm was biting....
Unfortunately, you are spot on (and as a Krajina Serb I know first hand).
How my people who have been wiped out in the cruelest way over the last 100 years and are now remembered as the "agressors" (!) whilst the Croats celebrate this latest crime openly as the "homeland war" with no negative comments from the EU is beyond me .... it really makes you wonder what exactly the "European perspective" is.
Lenard and other Croats - at least have the decency to stop naming streets after Tudjman, Starcevic, Budak and other tormentors in town where Serbs are still found!
What's next - dig up bodies of dead Serbs from cemeteries and "send them back to Serbia"?
This is why "Croatia" will never be a real country for me .... a truly pitiful place.
Let's hope Josipovic at least makes a bit of a difference.

Danilo - that same constitution says that SR Croatia is the nation of Serbs and Croats (as constituent nations) .... that's what you Croats signed up for.
When you unilaterally changed us to a "minority" and decided to make SR Croatia a mini NDH for Croats only - all bets were off (obviously). Isn't it funny how nationalist Croats love quoting some things from Yugoslav history, but then on the other hand say that Yugoslavia is some evil Serb-Commie-UDBA-Chetnik creation on the other?
Can't have it both ways my friends......

Like I said few days ago Serbia made a deal Goran Hadžić monetary and take care of his family financially so he dose not open his mouth. So Moran will not tell how Serbia was involved totally in planed criminal war aggression on the other republics. Just like with Ratko what a pitiful state Serbia is hiding war criminals all these years and all its horrendous criminality. Greater Serbia has still thousands of criminals those two butchers did not do it alone that is fore sure all those heinous crimes.
(Lenard, 20 July 2011 10:23)

Have any evidence? Guess not. There goes another one of your propaganda pieces

Note also that Germany still has a Nazi executioner wanted by the Hague that it refuses to extradict

Nada Sakic, the sadistic Jasenovac guardien of the KZ Stara Gradiska, died this year peacefully in Croatia, after having been protected for years by all "democratic" croatian governments. Her specialities: butcher serbian children and kill pregnant serbian women by jumping on her pregnant body and/or by starving them to death. Her sadistic husband, dinko sakic, was sentenced to 20 years in Croatia, nevertheless finished his life in semi liberty and was buried in 2008 with state honour in his original ustasa uniform!
And now all this TamTam because of Goran Hadzic who protected all the serbian population of just this kind of neofascist Croatians. And Croatia is fit for Europe...!

Lenard, are people who butcher little childre also as disgusting for you like Goran Hadzic?

Why hello there Lenard the Iranian Croat!

I guess this means that you are not a fan of Mladic like i am.

It's too bad Mladic was captured as he would have been a great contibutor and neighbour of Croatia.

Who's your daddy Lenard?

Like I said few days ago Serbia made a deal Goran Hadžić monetary and take care of his family financially so he dose not open his mouth. So Moran will not tell how Serbia was involved totally in planed criminal war aggression on the other republics. Just like with Ratko what a pitiful state Serbia is hiding war criminals all these years and all its horrendous criminality. Greater Serbia has still thousands of criminals those two butchers did not do it alone that is fore sure all those heinous crimes.

Excellent news as this now wraps up the last of Serbia's obligations to the ICTY. Unfortunately the thread has already become a back-and-forth spitting match among the usual suspects. But that's pretty much what I expected them to do so no surprise there. The only surprise I have to say is DimTuc whom I would have imagined had a better knowledge of the 1990 Croatian Constitution in which Croatia was first and foremost a state of the Croatian "nation" and only secondarily afterwards for other minorities. A clever way for Tudjman to disenfranchise a long-standing Serb community and push them towards open protest and later withdrawal from political participation.

http://www.sabor.hr/Default.aspx?art=2405&sec=729

In any event congratulations to Serbia for a job well done!

Michael.

Krajna isn't part of Croatia because "miserable Croats think it is". Krajna is part of Croatia because the Jugoslav constitution of the 1970s (to which Serbia was a signatory) says it is.

Danilo, be careful about using the Yugoslav Constitution to support Croat claims to Krajina.

The Yugoslav Constitution gave Yugoslav Republics the right to secede only if all other Yugoslav Republics and its two Autonomous Provinces agreed with that secession.

Croatia broke the Yugoslav Constitution and loyal Yugoslavs in the territory of the Yugoslav Republic of Croatia (mostly Krajina Serbs, but also some loyal Croats) were right to defend Yugoslavia and its Constitution and resist the Croatia’s German-backed rebellion.

Goran Hadžić was a loyal Yugoslav and that is why he is being persecuted.

Goran Hadzic was not a loyal Yugoslav as MT puts it. He was a crook who made his way to the top by befriending the right people.

I don't put Hadzic in the same category of Ratko Mladic. Hadzic was devious, he was a thief, he liked to dabble in politics, work for the regime or mafia figures.

As far as I'm concerned its good riddance to this piece of dirt. The only pity is he wasn't packed off sooner.

His family say that they have been living on EUR 300 a month, whilst he has in his possession many stolen pieces of art which he had been slowly selling and living comfortably.... That says it all really.

Michael,

Hadzic's indictment is the following:


* Count 1: PERSECUTION of Croats and other non-Serbs, on political, racial, and religious grounds
* Counts 2-4: EXTERMINATION AND MURDER of hundreds of Croats and non-Serbs, including 264 taken from Vukovar hospital and shot
* Counts 5-9: IMPRISONMENT, TORTURE, INHUMANE ACTS AND CRUEL TREATMENT against thousands of detainees, in camps where torture, starvation and sexual assault were common
* Counts 10-11: DEPORTATION, FORCIBLE TRANSFER of up to 90,000 Croats and non-Serbs from parts of Croatia
* Counts 12-14: WANTON DESTRUCTION, PLUNDER OF PUBLIC OR PRIVATE PROPERTY including homes and religious and cultural buildings



Strange. I don't see "being a loyal yugoslav" on that list anywhere.

While they are at it, they should also arrest some elderly Jews for littering German streets with shards of glass from their broken shop windows following Kristallnacht.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 11:49)

If you like old WW2 comparisons, then better use this one: Czech, Polish, Russian (feel free to add some more countries) authorities should arrest people who expelled 100.000s of Germans from their homes following the Nazi agression.

From an Australian of Croatian Serb heritage, well done! The EU can't always complain about Serbia's "lack of co-operation with the Hague" now. ;)

Look what the cat dragged in...(hope this time they didn't have to shoot some recruits who happened to see him in places where he officially hasn't been)
Next stop: recognition of Kosovo's independence. But no, I have forgotten that you would never bow to the EU's pressure since you are proud, independent, chosen etc. etc. ...

Good shot for Serbia !

To paraphase, "Croatia" is now for the Croatians and Serbs from now on are no more important here than Croatia's Bulgarian minority (?!? was there even one Bulgarian living in SR Croatia at the time!)
(commentator, 20 July 2011 15:54)

Wrong paraphrase. It's not about 'importance' at all. According to the population census from 1991, about 78% have been Croats, about 12% Serbs. Surely this describes a minority, what else? The Hungarians in Serbia/Vojvodina are a national minority as well. Are they less important citizens than Serbs? Nonsense!

It is a good move from Serbia. Although Serbian negotiations were on-going with all criminals (like Kardzic, Mladic and now Hadzic) for 16 yrs. Serbia needs some positive points in order to get the EU candidate status soon.

At the end of the day these common criminals in Serbia but considered great heroes in Belgrade will face at least some justice. Since there is no death penalty these criminals will be enjoying the times together with war-criminal-gang friends all of which populate Hague city.

It is a shame but at the same time relief Serbia that Balkan is about to honour the international obligation towards the International Tribunal.

For Serbia to become accepted as civilised country with some minor ethics is to do 2 things:

1. Apologise and offer reparations
2. Recognise Kosovo

interesting story about Kelmendi clan... that illustrates commentator kelmendi objectivity

http://balkan-spezial.blogspot.com/2010/03/die-super-mafia-im-balkan-des-naser.html


and to creative rationality

For Serbia to become accepted as civilised country with some minor ethics is to do 2 things:

1. Demand apologise from nazi croats, muslims and alnaians in KiM reparations
2. take back Kosovo


cheers

Oh. I'm a Croat now. Last week I was Albanian.

You're talking about a status of a people within a nation, not the borders of the nation itself. A bit of a different topic.

Here it is DimTuc ... it's a straight quote and Serbs were demoted to minority... trust this clears things up.

"Republic of Croatia is hereby established as the nation state of the Croatian nation and the state of the members of its national minorities: Serbs, Czechs, Slovaks, Italians, Hungarians, Jews, Germans, Austrians, Ukrainians, Rusyns, Bosniaks, Slovenians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Russians, Bulgarians, Poles, Roma, Romanians, Turks, Vlachs, Albanians and others...."

To paraphase, "Croatia" is now for the Croatians and Serbs from now on are no more important here than Croatia's Bulgarian minority (?!? was there even one Bulgarian living in SR Croatia at the time!) ... no offense to Bulgarians ... but who is kidding who? This was designed to start a war.
Thanks very much Tudjman - mission accomplished.

Unofficial reports suggest that he was arrested on Wednesday morning near the village of Krušedol, on Mt. Fruška Gora, north of Belgrade.

"north of Belgrade"
This is proof that Serbian goverment protected these monsters, till it became so obvious and presserure from Western countries.
Better late than never, but Serbia will not get any points at all.

"This is proof that Serbian goverment protected these monsters, till it became so obvious and presserure from Western countries.
Better late than never, but Serbia will not get any points at all."
(Agim Kelmendi, 20 July 2011 12:33)

Strange kind of 'proof' this is. But yes, it's unlikely that Serbian government didn't know about their whereabouts. But there are even worse things going on in the Balkans: There is a 'state' where former 'freedom fighters' (a.k.a. war criminals) are not only protected by the government, but they are part of the government, even nowadays after (manipulated) elections. Hopefully, there will be a 'better late then never' for these shady characters, too

Geez Bgannon, you seem to know everything about everyone. Who are you?
Is there any more defenders of Serbs you would like to spit on?

Unofficial reports suggest that he was arrested on Wednesday morning near the village of Krušedol, on Mt. Fruška Gora, north of Belgrade.

"north of Belgrade"
This is proof that Serbian goverment protected these monsters, till it became so obvious and presserure from Western countries.
Better late than never, but Serbia will not get any points at all.
(Agim Kelmendi, 20 July 2011 12:33)

Please explain why this is proof, we'd all love to know, also explain why the Serbian government would bother protecting Hadzic

There’s always whom or what to betray ! So I wonder who or what's gonna be the next ? T’s a rather annoying habit which may become chronicle. There were times when Russia was betraying all it’s friends worldwide. But even then we never gave up our own citizens and besides our Boris is gone !

Oh, forgot to add - Great Move Serbia!!

@ Lenard, I recently found a Duga magazine, issue September 1991,
There I read that Tudjman, expelled over 100000 Serbs, from Croatia! in 2 months time,
And that was 1991 September!

So pls stop your BS , the problem lies in that Serbs are very tolerant to wards other people and thats the downfall of Serbia, If serbs where like you(lenard) and tudjman..... then croatia would be Serbia today my friend!

On topic, Finnaly Also hadzic is caught, The question is: what has Serbia to do next I am sure that the EU will find something that Serbia needs to fulfil....

I don't buy this rubbish and never will- so dear EU bureaucrats stop with pathetic theatre pls.
(ben, 20 July 2011 15:18)

As an EU citizen, I'll say this: come on in Serbia - if you choose to join (and there are reasons why one wouldn't want to) you'll be most welcome!

As an EU citizen, I'll say this: come on in Serbia - if you choose to join (and there are reasons why one wouldn't want to) you'll be most welcome!
(The Brit, 20 July 2011 16:47)
***
Have I missed something? Since when are you the official EU-spokesperson?
As an EU citizen: Serbia, you are most unwelcome!!!
Do you really think that in the current situation (the Balkan beggar Greece sucking the EU dry)there will be any further enlargement? After Croatia the doors will be closely sealed.

"that same constitution says that SR Croatia is the nation of Serbs and Croats (as constituent nations) .... that's what you Croats signed up for. When you unilaterally changed us to a "minority" "

In other words, you, like all the other Serbs who parrot this statement because they read someone else make it, have never read the new 1990 Croatian constitution. Go on, dare you. Quote the bit that turns Serbs into a minority rather than nation.

and who gave milosevic the right to print his own money and take autonomies away, how many times did serbs break the yugo constitution.we didnt have to obey the yugo constitution, because nobody did, and it was all thanks to milosevic. yugoslavia was a lawless land.

Congratulations!

This is called arrest of convenience or should I say Serbian joke.

The government in belgrade knew where he was and they just kept it secret. This is what I saw on wikipedia website. Nenad Čanak, the leader of the League of Social Democrats of Vojvodina, claimed in 2006 that Hadžić was hiding in a monastery somewhere on the Fruška Gora mountain.

If person is not deeply familiar wit the subject ,it should not comment at all. Don’t forget that in second world war more than million Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and other antifascists were killed by knife by Croatian forces called ustasa, they where supporting and helping Germans . They did not spare anybody, from babies to old people. Even German soldiers could not believe that somebody can comit such a crime as kill the whole village and burn in Orthodox Church .Italian forces could not watch those massacres and they save lot of families. Some time latter Croatians tried to do that again ,but this time Serbs did not want to die, and they fight for life.

Peggy people at this forum know that I have a low tolerance for stupidity, trolling and extreme right wing thinking.

The ones I have offended are guilty of one of those three at some point. But I've been stupid or wrong before as well, and I'm willing to revise my opinion.

However, John Laughland from the reactionary right is not really somebody I respect. He hates the EU with such a rabid passion that his viewpoint is not suprising, nor is it suprising that he supported Milosevic, Mladic etc. In the British context he is a political idiot and in the Serbian context the same is true.

By the way if you want to see another right wing perspective you can find RT interview with Srdja Trifkovic on the same subject, which I've already watched.

Not to say that some of their points aren't valid, but that does not detract from my assertation that Hadzic is a war profiteering criminal. That Hadzic was a member of the Communist Party (before Sloba), that Hadzic then became a member of Ivica Racans Social Democratic Party in Croatia. Can you believe that???

What kind of sick opportunist goes from brotherhood and unity, to implicitly supporting Croatian independence and then goes to Serb nationalist. And he managed all of this in a timescale of less than 5 years...

I'll tell you what kind, a scumbag who believes in nothing but personal material profit. The wars of the former Jugoslavija were littered with such men and I'm truly sorry I have nothing good to say about them. I will at least point out when people are not guilty of such actions (Mladic for example was not a thief).

So I really can't help it if it upsets you when I point out these truths. But like I say every time to you, stop me, deny what I write, tell me I'm wrong and correct my facts.

Rather than try to do that you just get upset or to shift the focus elsewhere.

Trust me when I say that I'm sick of these sick, corrupt men and at least we won't have to talk about them any more now. Their heyday was in the 90's, the average joe couldn't touch them then.

And now does anybody really expect us to shed a tear?

Lenard, are people who butcher little childre also as disgusting for you like Goran Hadzic?
(German, 20 July 2011 17:49) Sure are they are No 1 disgusting list they did not get away with anything. Now a eternity of hell waits for them all the mambo jumbo of the Pope ,Cardinals and Priests will not get them out. Mat 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Priests, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Peggy I suspect I know more about Hadzic than you do.
Is there anybody else you'd like to defend without knowing anything about them or what they have done? Who is the naieve one here?

Facts can't be changed by wishing something else is true.

Peggy the man is a criminal, of course he deserves to be in a jail cell.

Did you notice that Serbia showed any intent to prosecute the man by raising charges against him?

In other words like others he would have got away with it had the Hague not raised charges against him.

At the end of the day Hadzic was there for himself when it counted. And when it counted the most (ethnic cleasning of Serbs from Croatia) he had fled the scene like the coward he was.

Serbia is using her war criminals as bargain chip with the EU for her integration into the same EU.

This theatre is disgusting, disloyal and ridiculous.

Arresting these guys for which there is plenty of evidence for them to be trailed is simply an ordinary job for a normal country - for Serbia this should be counted as exceptional and brilliant work that needs a special reward??

no way.

I don't buy this rubbish and never will- so dear EU bureaucrats stop with pathetic theatre pls.

Croatia broke the Yugoslav Constitution and loyal Yugoslavs in the territory of the Yugoslav Republic of Croatia (mostly Krajina Serbs, but also some loyal Croats) were right to defend Yugoslavia and its Constitution and resist the Croatia’s German-backed rebellion.

Goran Hadžić was a loyal Yugoslav and that is why he is being persecuted.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 13:45)

"Oh, no! The Republic of Croatia is now independent, I guess that means that we (Serbs) are definitely going to be persecuted now, even though our only evidence stems from the fact that there was a genocidal conflict some 45 years ago, despite the fact that Croatia's independence is backed by the United States and Germany, meaning that their laws and treatment of minorities would reflect that in their own countries (pretty stringent and generally fair)! Let's take up arms, brethren!" - Croatian Serbs, 1991.

Anyone who quotes the Bible to spread hate is not working with both oars in the water.

Wrong paraphrase. It's not about 'importance' at all. According to the population census from 1991, about 78% have been Croats, about 12% Serbs. Surely this describes a minority, what else? The Hungarians in Serbia/Vojvodina are a national minority as well. Are they less important citizens than Serbs? Nonsense!
(Analyst, 20 July 2011 18:05)

Yes, but just because the Serbs lost their status as a special minority doesn't mean that they're going to be ethnically-cleansed, or lose all of their rights as human beings. My mother still kept her job as a doctor in a hospital in Zagreb despite the constitutional changes - she only left once the conflict which the people who were purported to "represent her" started.

And people wonder why Operation Storm took place. Maybe if the Republika Srpska Krajina didn't take up arms against the Republic of Croatia, my family would still be living in Croatia, and not as refugees!

I love it when big Serbs from the diaspora (who probably don't even speak Serbian well) start "teaching serbian" to those they disagree with in Serbia.

Someone should write a play.

It could be a hit in Belgrade.

The Yugoslav Constitution gave Yugoslav Republics the right to secede only if all other Yugoslav Republics and its two Autonomous Provinces agreed with that secession.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 13:45)

I don't understand Serbian very well and may have missed it... Can you please cite the article of the 1974 SFRY Constitution which states what you said ?



Croatia broke the Yugoslav Constitution and loyal Yugoslavs in the territory of the Yugoslav Republic of Croatia (mostly Krajina Serbs, but also some loyal Croats) were right to defend Yugoslavia and its Constitution and resist the Croatia’s German-backed rebellion.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 13:45)

Did anybody complain to the SFRY Constitutional Court that Croatia violated and SFRY Constitution and, if so, what was the Courts decision. I'm asking because nobody of the people you mentioned was empowered to decide on the consitutionality of what Croatia did.



Goran Hadžić was a loyal Yugoslav and that is why he is being persecuted.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 13:45)

That's not what the indictment says. The indictement speaks about alleged murder, torture, etc. Being a loyal Yugoslav is not a license to (allegedly) committ the above acts.

(Danilo, 21 July 2011 18:43)

According to you Serbs in Croatia were not persecuted and deserved no independence!
According to you Albanians in Serbia were persecuted and deserved independence!

You are a self hating wimp,people like you would have collected peasents in WW2 to be executed by Germans...
And because of "Serbs" like you who AUTOMATICALLY,whenever something occurs between Serbs and others,turn against fellow Serbs and ALWAYS,ALWAYS take the side of our enemies WE ARE IN THIS MESS AS A NATION!

THAT IS THE REASON FOR THE SITUATION WE AS A NATION FACE!

When we could have chosen a national state of Serbia in 1945 with clear ethnic boundaries and an integration into the West and could have solved all territorial questions people like you choose Yugoslavia wich was fatal for Serb interests!

Have you EVER,EVER seen a Croat or Albanian take sides against his nation,even when they knew perfectly that their position was immoral?
No,because they have resolve and are united and FANATICAL in pursuing their national interests ,thats why they get things done!

BY selling out fellow Serbs you Belgradians WILL ACHIEVE NOTHING,i come every year to Belgrade and it is in a more catastrophic situation than in the 90s,except if you have connections to the treacherous DS party...

DimTuc,

The way I see it, the wording of the Croatian Constitution was ambiguous enough to allow Tudjman, or more likely his supporters, the ability of disenfranchising Serbian communities from Croatian. The term "constitutional nationalism" was one that academic sources applied to Tudjman's type of national populism in the early 1990s in which a member of the Croatian "nation", which includes anyone in Croatia, the region, or around the world, that meets the ethno-religious qualifications of being "Croat" could enjoy full rights and benefits in the new Croatian state. Conversely, a non-Croat citizen of Croatia, in this case the Croatian Serbs, were downgraded in pay, job opportunities, and representation. So Croat ex-pats come back and are given jobs that were taken away from native Serb communities.

Something I note was very similar to Milosevic's policy of eliminating Kosovo's autonomy and disenfranchising the Albanian community. It all starts with economic discrepancies and disenfranchisement, which leads to the radicalization of politics.

So of course those Serbs who had a job, or better yet some form of job security, in SFRJ and now suddenly don't in the newly independent Croatia, are most likely going to resist Tudjman's policies. Coupled with his foolish romanticism with anything smacking of Croatian independence - including the NDH of all things! - the hastily organized RSK easily found willing adherents. I personally can't blame them for joining.

Now does this justify the crimes committed afterwards? Absolutely not, and there's a major problem with both Serb and Croatian nationalists in trying to equate what I think is the justifiable creation of RSK into the seige of Vukovar. One does not logically lead to the other. In any event, Croats see RSK as a rejection by Serbs to be loyal Croatian citizens, justified by Vukovar, and Serbs see RSK as a form of organized defense against what basically amounted to state-sponsored apartheid and ethnocentrism in Zagreb, justified first by Tudjman's rhetoric and later by Operation Storm.

But again, this is unrelated to Hadzic and any crimes he might be associated with in the civil war that ensued afterwards. Gotovina met his fate, just as Hadzic should meet his.

Note also that Germany still has a Nazi executioner wanted by the Hague that it refuses to extradict
(New Zealander, 20 July 2011 12:07)

Germany does not have an international legal obligation to extradite him. Serbia on the other hand does as do all other states in regards to ICTY.

All states have an international legal obligation to arrest and extradite person indicted by the ICTY because the UNSC, which Serbia so much loves, has said so. If ICTY indictes the Nazi executioner, than Germany will also extrdite him to the ICTY.
(icj1, 21 July 2011 04:28)

I'm not arguing in Hadzic's defense, nor am I a Serb, only I see it pointless that some countries have to extridict their war criminals while others do not

Peggy wrote:
At the end of the day Oric was there for his people when it counted the most. He doesn't deserve the Hauge.
(Peggy, 22 July 2011 09:25)

As with Hadzic?

Peggy why are you fixated upon before the war? He was a war profiteer during the war. As I pointed out he started as a Jugoslav, then became an advocate of Croatian independence, then became a Serb nationalist.

The reason he had no ideology was because he was going wherever the money was. What he did? Oh stealing, weapons trading with all sides, illegally appropriating oil / petrol and then selling to all sides the usual criminal activities. He was also morally guilty of turning tail as soon as Croatian forces got stronger. These are the things that are clear. I'm not an expert on his wartime activities, but no doubt if it helped his 'financial interests' he would have been willing to order a massacre or two.

What you appear incapable of understanding is the relationship between a lack of morality / criminality and capablity to carry out war crimes. There is a distinct relationship between the two, as history has shown us.

So although I proclaim Hadzic guilty of no morality, of being a thief and being beneath contempt, I don't proclaim him guilty of war crimes - yet. No doubt you find him innocent of war crimes before having even read the charge sheet right?

The poor guy was just defending his people right? Thats a good one, really!

Peggy I suspect I know more about Hadzic than you do.
Is there anybody else you'd like to defend without knowing anything about them or what they have done? Who is the naieve one here?

Facts can't be changed by wishing something else is true.
(bganon, 21 July 2011 00:45)
===============================

I don't think anyone is naive here. You certainly are not naive but what you are is debatable.
You seem to think that you are of superior intellect and know everything about everyone.
No wonder both Serbs and Albanians get hostile towards you. I can only hope that there aren't too many like you in Serbia.

Ivan-you're the joke. Your posts are hilarious and always make me chuckle.

Facts can't be changed by wishing something else is true.
(bganon, 21 July 2011 00:45)
===========================
Here are some facts for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJmOqWCAnV8&feature=related

Listen carefully, you just might learn something. I know, I know, you think you know it all but humour me.

Bganon, I understand you have your views and prejudices like the rest of us and I understnad what you are trying to say.
Nevertheless, all that you said about Hadzic does not quality him to be handed over to Hague and that was my main point.
If he was this or that he should be tried for those crimes in Serbia but what has that got to do with the Hague?

I was trying to point out exactly what that court is and how it is not suitable to Serbs to be sent there.
You have your opinions on certain people and you won't accept anything they say because of them but that again doesn't mean that they are wrong.

At the end of the day Hadzic was there for his people when it counted the most.
He doesn't deserve the Hauge.

No "Analyst" it is not nonsense, this change was not designed to simply reflect that Serbs were less than 50% of the population - but to railroad thru "independence". The situation in Croatia demanded a consensus between Serbs and Croats on the future of "Croatia" (in the same way as Bosnia needs consensus between Serbs, Croats and Bozniaks, regardless of the numbers of each group). That was the purpose of the old constitution and the idea of "nation" rather than "minority".
The Croats changed it so they didn't need to ask the Serbs about the fate of "their country".
All of this could have been sensibly negotiated over a number of years if it was dealt with calmly and with sensitivity to Serb fears (the last independent Croat state exterminated 100,000s of Serbs within living memory).
But no, it all got rushed thru in a matter of months at the prompting of foreign players and the Croat Ustasa diaspora. They wanted a war, they got one, and worst of all, they got away with all this whilst Serbs got all the blame.
Maybe in the "mainstream media" and in Ustasa history books - but never in my mind.

PS: If I'm right, Albanians were around 15% of Serbia's population overall .... so what's the problem if Serbia said "Serbia is for the Serbians and we will tolerate minorities like the Albanians and the rest" ? ... you have a problem with that? Albs are less than 50% in Serbia. Why don't they just get over it and accept the "will of the majority"?

Mike and Commentator

thank you for your comments. The problem seems to be how to translate a particular phrase in the constitution; or a subtle change in the constitution at a later date. Because here is another reading of that passage:

"the Republic of Croatia is hereby established as the national state of the Croatian people and a state of members of other *nations and minorities* who are its citizens Serbs, Muslims, Slovenes, Czechs, Slovaks, Italians, Hungarians, Jews and others, who are guaranteed equality with citizens of Croatian nationality"
(http://preambleconstitution.blogspot.com/2010/07/preamble-constitution-of-croatia.html)

I've seen this "nations and minorities" translation many times, whereas you quote the translation "national minorities." Perhaps someone needs to clear that up from the Croatian, or perhaps there was a nasty little amendment after 1995?

Clearly, the translation I have here deems the Serbs, as the first on the list, a "nation" as opposed to the following "minorities"; there is no other way of reading it.

Comentator, you ask what about if serbis said the same about Albanians etc. I assume you are being ironic. The whole point is that the new Serbian constitution of 1990 - released some months befoe the new Croatian constitution - did precisely that: Serbia became the state of the Serbian nation and various "minorities," into which category not only the large Albanian population had to fit, but even more scandalously, this simply wiped away the whole issue of Kosovo's constitutional high level autonomy, one of the may acts of Milosevic which destroyed the Yugoslav federation.

Croatia merely copied the Serbian constituion a few months later, if your translation is the correct one. It copied another thing by the way. Serbia's new 1990 constitution also declared Serbia independent. Read it and check.

BY selling out fellow Serbs you Belgradians WILL ACHIEVE NOTHING,i come every year to Belgrade and it is in a more catastrophic situation than in the 90s,except if you have connections to the treacherous DS party...
(CG, 22 July 2011 01:20
=========================

My thoughts exactly. What the hell have Serbs like bganon achieved?
Nothing. All that is going to be achieved here is EU will make more demands until Serbia is fragmanted and nothing left. Exactly what Albanians and Croats have been saying for years.
I still can't believe that bganon thinks that Hadzic deserves Hague for some crimes he committed BEFORE the war.
If majority of Serbs are like this then Serbia will disappear and deserve it.

Don't forget that Goran Hadzic was a ranking officer and member of a terrorist force that was guilty of an illegal occupation of the territory of an internationally recognized sovereign state. How is Serbia ever going to claim Kosovo while not enforcing the same set of standards everywhere else? If the pursuit of international law justifies the Serb crackdown in Kosovo in 1999 then you have no right to complain when other nations do the same. Good job to the Serbian authorities for arresting this criminal! A new dawn in relations in the Balkans might be around the corner now that this ICTY mess is on its way out.

As with Hadzic?
(balkanico, 22 July 2011 11:12)
======================

NO, Oric was murdering Serbs around Srebrenica left, right and centre and bragging about it. Hadzic was not.
Anyway, why waste time with people who have their own agenda here.

Bganon, are you for real. Now you are being ridiculous.

Whatever crimes Hadzic may or may have not done it's not something that Hauge should be concerned with. You are talking about crimes before the war. How the hell is this a Hague problem?
So all the drug dealers, people smugglets etc should be sent to Hague.
If Serbia did not show any interest in prosecuting this man then feel free to write to Bruno and ask him why but you are so off the mark with this Hague BS.

So go on, do tell us how is what you said he did BEFORE the war a matter for the Hague?

Note also that Germany still has a Nazi executioner wanted by the Hague that it refuses to extradict
(New Zealander, 20 July 2011 12:07)

Germany does not have an international legal obligation to extradite him. Serbia on the other hand does as do all other states in regards to ICTY.

All states have an international legal obligation to arrest and extradite person indicted by the ICTY because the UNSC, which Serbia so much loves, has said so. If ICTY indictes the Nazi executioner, than Germany will also extrdite him to the ICTY.

I was right! The 1990 constitution is here: http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/hr01000_.html and includes the formulation "nations and minorities". So Serbs were not relegated to "minority" status in 1990. However, there were amendments in 1997, 2000 and 2001, and one of them changed this formulation to "national minorities" as in http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/hr00000_.html, not sure which amendment, but I suspect 1997 when Tudjman was triumphant after storm.

now that the last serb wanted is arressted. the hague can start arresting croatian war criminals, the KLA the bosnian muslim terrorist groups then move on to the USA and UK and the murder of IRAQ and afghan citizens right? i mean you cant invade a soverign terrority murder its people steal its natural resources oh yes you can if its Serbia.

I'm not arguing in Hadzic's defense, nor am I a Serb, only I see it pointless that some countries have to extridict their war criminals while others do not
(New Zealander, 21 July 2011 11:04)

Serbia, too, does not have to extradite its nationals, unless they are indicted by ICTY. The same is true for all other countries, too. They have to extradite if somebody is indicted by ICTY. There is no special treatment for anybody. Not sure what you see as pointless in this.

So although I proclaim Hadzic guilty of no morality, of being a thief and being beneath contempt, I don't proclaim him guilty of war crimes - yet. No doubt you find him innocent of war crimes before having even read the charge sheet right?

The poor guy was just defending his people right? Thats a good one, really!
(bganon, 22 July 2011 17:45)
===============================

I do not find him guilty or innocent of anything. All I asked was how committing crimes BEFORE the war entitled him to be tried in the Hague.
You are the one who is fixated on all sorts of crimes he committed BEFORE the war and all I want to know is how this justifies Hague trial.

That's all but you seem to go on and on and on about his guilt in things he sould be tried for in Serbia.

So don't twist what I am saying. Are you saying he led the Croats during that civil war? If you are then yes, he did not defend his people.

Peggy wrote:
At the end of the day Oric was there for his people when it counted the most. He doesn't deserve the Hauge.
(Peggy, 22 July 2011 09:25)

===========================

I never wrote this. Who is using my name?

now that the last serb wanted is arressted. the hague can start arresting croatian war criminals, the KLA the bosnian muslim terrorist groups then move on to the USA and UK and the murder of IRAQ and afghan citizens right? i mean you cant invade a soverign terrority murder its people steal its natural resources oh yes you can if its Serbia.
(mia, 23 July 2011 02:40)
===========================

You can if it's Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lybia. The US doesn't go in unless there is something in it for the US.
It's all done in the name of humanitarian intervention and anyone who has studies International Relations knows exacty what humanitarian intervention means.

They have already had Oric and Haradinaj and Ganjic but none of them have been found guilty of anything. They DON'T WANT THEM.
They are only interested in finding Serbs guilty of most of the crimes and the most horrible crimes in order to justify their part in the war and them starting the war by proxy.

Maybe one day when BRIC becomes the next power we might have some hope of justice. Until then the only justice that Serbs can count on is the heavenly one.

Like I said few days ago Serbia made a deal Goran Hadžić monetary and take care of his family financially so he dose not open his mouth. So Moran will not tell how Serbia was involved totally in planed criminal war aggression on the other republics. Just like with Ratko what a pitiful state Serbia is hiding war criminals all these years and all its horrendous criminality. Greater Serbia has still thousands of criminals those two butchers did not do it alone that is fore sure all those heinous crimes.

It is a good move from Serbia. Although Serbian negotiations were on-going with all criminals (like Kardzic, Mladic and now Hadzic) for 16 yrs. Serbia needs some positive points in order to get the EU candidate status soon.

At the end of the day these common criminals in Serbia but considered great heroes in Belgrade will face at least some justice. Since there is no death penalty these criminals will be enjoying the times together with war-criminal-gang friends all of which populate Hague city.

It is a shame but at the same time relief Serbia that Balkan is about to honour the international obligation towards the International Tribunal.

For Serbia to become accepted as civilised country with some minor ethics is to do 2 things:

1. Apologise and offer reparations
2. Recognise Kosovo

Unofficial reports suggest that he was arrested on Wednesday morning near the village of Krušedol, on Mt. Fruška Gora, north of Belgrade.

"north of Belgrade"
This is proof that Serbian goverment protected these monsters, till it became so obvious and presserure from Western countries.
Better late than never, but Serbia will not get any points at all.

Goran Hadžić was leader of the Krajina Serbs. The Krajina Serbs lived on land that miserable Croats like Lenard claim to be part of Croatia. The Krajina Serbs have now been exterminated by Croats armed and aided by both the Nazis and NATO.

Now one of the victims of this holocaust is to be “tried” for war crimes.

While they are at it, they should also arrest some elderly Jews for littering German streets with shards of glass from their broken shop windows following Kristallnacht.

Danilo, be careful about using the Yugoslav Constitution to support Croat claims to Krajina.

The Yugoslav Constitution gave Yugoslav Republics the right to secede only if all other Yugoslav Republics and its two Autonomous Provinces agreed with that secession.

Croatia broke the Yugoslav Constitution and loyal Yugoslavs in the territory of the Yugoslav Republic of Croatia (mostly Krajina Serbs, but also some loyal Croats) were right to defend Yugoslavia and its Constitution and resist the Croatia’s German-backed rebellion.

Goran Hadžić was a loyal Yugoslav and that is why he is being persecuted.

Goran Hadzic was not a loyal Yugoslav as MT puts it. He was a crook who made his way to the top by befriending the right people.

I don't put Hadzic in the same category of Ratko Mladic. Hadzic was devious, he was a thief, he liked to dabble in politics, work for the regime or mafia figures.

As far as I'm concerned its good riddance to this piece of dirt. The only pity is he wasn't packed off sooner.

His family say that they have been living on EUR 300 a month, whilst he has in his possession many stolen pieces of art which he had been slowly selling and living comfortably.... That says it all really.

Lenard, you are some piece of work.
Does anything ever satisfy you? I think you would not rest until all Serbs are exterminated throughout the world.
So much evil and venom inside one person.

Why hello there Lenard the Iranian Croat!

I guess this means that you are not a fan of Mladic like i am.

It's too bad Mladic was captured as he would have been a great contibutor and neighbour of Croatia.

Who's your daddy Lenard?

interesting story about Kelmendi clan... that illustrates commentator kelmendi objectivity

http://balkan-spezial.blogspot.com/2010/03/die-super-mafia-im-balkan-des-naser.html


and to creative rationality

For Serbia to become accepted as civilised country with some minor ethics is to do 2 things:

1. Demand apologise from nazi croats, muslims and alnaians in KiM reparations
2. take back Kosovo


cheers

Geez Bgannon, you seem to know everything about everyone. Who are you?
Is there any more defenders of Serbs you would like to spit on?

Congratulations!

Michael.

Krajna isn't part of Croatia because "miserable Croats think it is". Krajna is part of Croatia because the Jugoslav constitution of the 1970s (to which Serbia was a signatory) says it is.

Danilo - that same constitution says that SR Croatia is the nation of Serbs and Croats (as constituent nations) .... that's what you Croats signed up for.
When you unilaterally changed us to a "minority" and decided to make SR Croatia a mini NDH for Croats only - all bets were off (obviously). Isn't it funny how nationalist Croats love quoting some things from Yugoslav history, but then on the other hand say that Yugoslavia is some evil Serb-Commie-UDBA-Chetnik creation on the other?
Can't have it both ways my friends......

This is called arrest of convenience or should I say Serbian joke.

I don't buy this rubbish and never will- so dear EU bureaucrats stop with pathetic theatre pls.
(ben, 20 July 2011 15:18)

As an EU citizen, I'll say this: come on in Serbia - if you choose to join (and there are reasons why one wouldn't want to) you'll be most welcome!

Excellent news as this now wraps up the last of Serbia's obligations to the ICTY. Unfortunately the thread has already become a back-and-forth spitting match among the usual suspects. But that's pretty much what I expected them to do so no surprise there. The only surprise I have to say is DimTuc whom I would have imagined had a better knowledge of the 1990 Croatian Constitution in which Croatia was first and foremost a state of the Croatian "nation" and only secondarily afterwards for other minorities. A clever way for Tudjman to disenfranchise a long-standing Serb community and push them towards open protest and later withdrawal from political participation.

http://www.sabor.hr/Default.aspx?art=2405&sec=729

In any event congratulations to Serbia for a job well done!

From an Australian of Croatian Serb heritage, well done! The EU can't always complain about Serbia's "lack of co-operation with the Hague" now. ;)

"that same constitution says that SR Croatia is the nation of Serbs and Croats (as constituent nations) .... that's what you Croats signed up for. When you unilaterally changed us to a "minority" "

In other words, you, like all the other Serbs who parrot this statement because they read someone else make it, have never read the new 1990 Croatian constitution. Go on, dare you. Quote the bit that turns Serbs into a minority rather than nation.

Thankyou Michael Thomas for your very good comment. Your sarcasm was biting....
Unfortunately, you are spot on (and as a Krajina Serb I know first hand).
How my people who have been wiped out in the cruelest way over the last 100 years and are now remembered as the "agressors" (!) whilst the Croats celebrate this latest crime openly as the "homeland war" with no negative comments from the EU is beyond me .... it really makes you wonder what exactly the "European perspective" is.
Lenard and other Croats - at least have the decency to stop naming streets after Tudjman, Starcevic, Budak and other tormentors in town where Serbs are still found!
What's next - dig up bodies of dead Serbs from cemeteries and "send them back to Serbia"?
This is why "Croatia" will never be a real country for me .... a truly pitiful place.
Let's hope Josipovic at least makes a bit of a difference.

Serbia is using her war criminals as bargain chip with the EU for her integration into the same EU.

This theatre is disgusting, disloyal and ridiculous.

Arresting these guys for which there is plenty of evidence for them to be trailed is simply an ordinary job for a normal country - for Serbia this should be counted as exceptional and brilliant work that needs a special reward??

no way.

I don't buy this rubbish and never will- so dear EU bureaucrats stop with pathetic theatre pls.

Here it is DimTuc ... it's a straight quote and Serbs were demoted to minority... trust this clears things up.

"Republic of Croatia is hereby established as the nation state of the Croatian nation and the state of the members of its national minorities: Serbs, Czechs, Slovaks, Italians, Hungarians, Jews, Germans, Austrians, Ukrainians, Rusyns, Bosniaks, Slovenians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Russians, Bulgarians, Poles, Roma, Romanians, Turks, Vlachs, Albanians and others...."

To paraphase, "Croatia" is now for the Croatians and Serbs from now on are no more important here than Croatia's Bulgarian minority (?!? was there even one Bulgarian living in SR Croatia at the time!) ... no offense to Bulgarians ... but who is kidding who? This was designed to start a war.
Thanks very much Tudjman - mission accomplished.

Look what the cat dragged in...(hope this time they didn't have to shoot some recruits who happened to see him in places where he officially hasn't been)
Next stop: recognition of Kosovo's independence. But no, I have forgotten that you would never bow to the EU's pressure since you are proud, independent, chosen etc. etc. ...

Oh. I'm a Croat now. Last week I was Albanian.

You're talking about a status of a people within a nation, not the borders of the nation itself. A bit of a different topic.

Unofficial reports suggest that he was arrested on Wednesday morning near the village of Krušedol, on Mt. Fruška Gora, north of Belgrade.

"north of Belgrade"
This is proof that Serbian goverment protected these monsters, till it became so obvious and presserure from Western countries.
Better late than never, but Serbia will not get any points at all.
(Agim Kelmendi, 20 July 2011 12:33)

Please explain why this is proof, we'd all love to know, also explain why the Serbian government would bother protecting Hadzic

If person is not deeply familiar wit the subject ,it should not comment at all. Don’t forget that in second world war more than million Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and other antifascists were killed by knife by Croatian forces called ustasa, they where supporting and helping Germans . They did not spare anybody, from babies to old people. Even German soldiers could not believe that somebody can comit such a crime as kill the whole village and burn in Orthodox Church .Italian forces could not watch those massacres and they save lot of families. Some time latter Croatians tried to do that again ,but this time Serbs did not want to die, and they fight for life.

Good shot for Serbia !

Like I said few days ago Serbia made a deal Goran Hadžić monetary and take care of his family financially so he dose not open his mouth. So Moran will not tell how Serbia was involved totally in planed criminal war aggression on the other republics. Just like with Ratko what a pitiful state Serbia is hiding war criminals all these years and all its horrendous criminality. Greater Serbia has still thousands of criminals those two butchers did not do it alone that is fore sure all those heinous crimes.
(Lenard, 20 July 2011 10:23)

Have any evidence? Guess not. There goes another one of your propaganda pieces

Note also that Germany still has a Nazi executioner wanted by the Hague that it refuses to extradict

There’s always whom or what to betray ! So I wonder who or what's gonna be the next ? T’s a rather annoying habit which may become chronicle. There were times when Russia was betraying all it’s friends worldwide. But even then we never gave up our own citizens and besides our Boris is gone !

Michael,

Hadzic's indictment is the following:


* Count 1: PERSECUTION of Croats and other non-Serbs, on political, racial, and religious grounds
* Counts 2-4: EXTERMINATION AND MURDER of hundreds of Croats and non-Serbs, including 264 taken from Vukovar hospital and shot
* Counts 5-9: IMPRISONMENT, TORTURE, INHUMANE ACTS AND CRUEL TREATMENT against thousands of detainees, in camps where torture, starvation and sexual assault were common
* Counts 10-11: DEPORTATION, FORCIBLE TRANSFER of up to 90,000 Croats and non-Serbs from parts of Croatia
* Counts 12-14: WANTON DESTRUCTION, PLUNDER OF PUBLIC OR PRIVATE PROPERTY including homes and religious and cultural buildings



Strange. I don't see "being a loyal yugoslav" on that list anywhere.

Oh, forgot to add - Great Move Serbia!!

Lenard, are people who butcher little childre also as disgusting for you like Goran Hadzic?
(German, 20 July 2011 17:49) Sure are they are No 1 disgusting list they did not get away with anything. Now a eternity of hell waits for them all the mambo jumbo of the Pope ,Cardinals and Priests will not get them out. Mat 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Priests, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Peggy I suspect I know more about Hadzic than you do.
Is there anybody else you'd like to defend without knowing anything about them or what they have done? Who is the naieve one here?

Facts can't be changed by wishing something else is true.
(bganon, 21 July 2011 00:45)
===============================

I don't think anyone is naive here. You certainly are not naive but what you are is debatable.
You seem to think that you are of superior intellect and know everything about everyone.
No wonder both Serbs and Albanians get hostile towards you. I can only hope that there aren't too many like you in Serbia.

While they are at it, they should also arrest some elderly Jews for littering German streets with shards of glass from their broken shop windows following Kristallnacht.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 11:49)

If you like old WW2 comparisons, then better use this one: Czech, Polish, Russian (feel free to add some more countries) authorities should arrest people who expelled 100.000s of Germans from their homes following the Nazi agression.

The government in belgrade knew where he was and they just kept it secret. This is what I saw on wikipedia website. Nenad Čanak, the leader of the League of Social Democrats of Vojvodina, claimed in 2006 that Hadžić was hiding in a monastery somewhere on the Fruška Gora mountain.

and who gave milosevic the right to print his own money and take autonomies away, how many times did serbs break the yugo constitution.we didnt have to obey the yugo constitution, because nobody did, and it was all thanks to milosevic. yugoslavia was a lawless land.

@ Lenard, I recently found a Duga magazine, issue September 1991,
There I read that Tudjman, expelled over 100000 Serbs, from Croatia! in 2 months time,
And that was 1991 September!

So pls stop your BS , the problem lies in that Serbs are very tolerant to wards other people and thats the downfall of Serbia, If serbs where like you(lenard) and tudjman..... then croatia would be Serbia today my friend!

On topic, Finnaly Also hadzic is caught, The question is: what has Serbia to do next I am sure that the EU will find something that Serbia needs to fulfil....

BY selling out fellow Serbs you Belgradians WILL ACHIEVE NOTHING,i come every year to Belgrade and it is in a more catastrophic situation than in the 90s,except if you have connections to the treacherous DS party...
(CG, 22 July 2011 01:20
=========================

My thoughts exactly. What the hell have Serbs like bganon achieved?
Nothing. All that is going to be achieved here is EU will make more demands until Serbia is fragmanted and nothing left. Exactly what Albanians and Croats have been saying for years.
I still can't believe that bganon thinks that Hadzic deserves Hague for some crimes he committed BEFORE the war.
If majority of Serbs are like this then Serbia will disappear and deserve it.

Anyone who quotes the Bible to spread hate is not working with both oars in the water.

As with Hadzic?
(balkanico, 22 July 2011 11:12)
======================

NO, Oric was murdering Serbs around Srebrenica left, right and centre and bragging about it. Hadzic was not.
Anyway, why waste time with people who have their own agenda here.

Bganon, are you for real. Now you are being ridiculous.

Whatever crimes Hadzic may or may have not done it's not something that Hauge should be concerned with. You are talking about crimes before the war. How the hell is this a Hague problem?
So all the drug dealers, people smugglets etc should be sent to Hague.
If Serbia did not show any interest in prosecuting this man then feel free to write to Bruno and ask him why but you are so off the mark with this Hague BS.

So go on, do tell us how is what you said he did BEFORE the war a matter for the Hague?

Nada Sakic, the sadistic Jasenovac guardien of the KZ Stara Gradiska, died this year peacefully in Croatia, after having been protected for years by all "democratic" croatian governments. Her specialities: butcher serbian children and kill pregnant serbian women by jumping on her pregnant body and/or by starving them to death. Her sadistic husband, dinko sakic, was sentenced to 20 years in Croatia, nevertheless finished his life in semi liberty and was buried in 2008 with state honour in his original ustasa uniform!
And now all this TamTam because of Goran Hadzic who protected all the serbian population of just this kind of neofascist Croatians. And Croatia is fit for Europe...!

Lenard, are people who butcher little childre also as disgusting for you like Goran Hadzic?

As an EU citizen, I'll say this: come on in Serbia - if you choose to join (and there are reasons why one wouldn't want to) you'll be most welcome!
(The Brit, 20 July 2011 16:47)
***
Have I missed something? Since when are you the official EU-spokesperson?
As an EU citizen: Serbia, you are most unwelcome!!!
Do you really think that in the current situation (the Balkan beggar Greece sucking the EU dry)there will be any further enlargement? After Croatia the doors will be closely sealed.

Peggy I suspect I know more about Hadzic than you do.
Is there anybody else you'd like to defend without knowing anything about them or what they have done? Who is the naieve one here?

Facts can't be changed by wishing something else is true.

(Danilo, 21 July 2011 18:43)

According to you Serbs in Croatia were not persecuted and deserved no independence!
According to you Albanians in Serbia were persecuted and deserved independence!

You are a self hating wimp,people like you would have collected peasents in WW2 to be executed by Germans...
And because of "Serbs" like you who AUTOMATICALLY,whenever something occurs between Serbs and others,turn against fellow Serbs and ALWAYS,ALWAYS take the side of our enemies WE ARE IN THIS MESS AS A NATION!

THAT IS THE REASON FOR THE SITUATION WE AS A NATION FACE!

When we could have chosen a national state of Serbia in 1945 with clear ethnic boundaries and an integration into the West and could have solved all territorial questions people like you choose Yugoslavia wich was fatal for Serb interests!

Have you EVER,EVER seen a Croat or Albanian take sides against his nation,even when they knew perfectly that their position was immoral?
No,because they have resolve and are united and FANATICAL in pursuing their national interests ,thats why they get things done!

BY selling out fellow Serbs you Belgradians WILL ACHIEVE NOTHING,i come every year to Belgrade and it is in a more catastrophic situation than in the 90s,except if you have connections to the treacherous DS party...

"This is proof that Serbian goverment protected these monsters, till it became so obvious and presserure from Western countries.
Better late than never, but Serbia will not get any points at all."
(Agim Kelmendi, 20 July 2011 12:33)

Strange kind of 'proof' this is. But yes, it's unlikely that Serbian government didn't know about their whereabouts. But there are even worse things going on in the Balkans: There is a 'state' where former 'freedom fighters' (a.k.a. war criminals) are not only protected by the government, but they are part of the government, even nowadays after (manipulated) elections. Hopefully, there will be a 'better late then never' for these shady characters, too

Croatia broke the Yugoslav Constitution and loyal Yugoslavs in the territory of the Yugoslav Republic of Croatia (mostly Krajina Serbs, but also some loyal Croats) were right to defend Yugoslavia and its Constitution and resist the Croatia’s German-backed rebellion.

Goran Hadžić was a loyal Yugoslav and that is why he is being persecuted.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 13:45)

"Oh, no! The Republic of Croatia is now independent, I guess that means that we (Serbs) are definitely going to be persecuted now, even though our only evidence stems from the fact that there was a genocidal conflict some 45 years ago, despite the fact that Croatia's independence is backed by the United States and Germany, meaning that their laws and treatment of minorities would reflect that in their own countries (pretty stringent and generally fair)! Let's take up arms, brethren!" - Croatian Serbs, 1991.

No "Analyst" it is not nonsense, this change was not designed to simply reflect that Serbs were less than 50% of the population - but to railroad thru "independence". The situation in Croatia demanded a consensus between Serbs and Croats on the future of "Croatia" (in the same way as Bosnia needs consensus between Serbs, Croats and Bozniaks, regardless of the numbers of each group). That was the purpose of the old constitution and the idea of "nation" rather than "minority".
The Croats changed it so they didn't need to ask the Serbs about the fate of "their country".
All of this could have been sensibly negotiated over a number of years if it was dealt with calmly and with sensitivity to Serb fears (the last independent Croat state exterminated 100,000s of Serbs within living memory).
But no, it all got rushed thru in a matter of months at the prompting of foreign players and the Croat Ustasa diaspora. They wanted a war, they got one, and worst of all, they got away with all this whilst Serbs got all the blame.
Maybe in the "mainstream media" and in Ustasa history books - but never in my mind.

PS: If I'm right, Albanians were around 15% of Serbia's population overall .... so what's the problem if Serbia said "Serbia is for the Serbians and we will tolerate minorities like the Albanians and the rest" ? ... you have a problem with that? Albs are less than 50% in Serbia. Why don't they just get over it and accept the "will of the majority"?

Facts can't be changed by wishing something else is true.
(bganon, 21 July 2011 00:45)
===========================
Here are some facts for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJmOqWCAnV8&feature=related

Listen carefully, you just might learn something. I know, I know, you think you know it all but humour me.

I love it when big Serbs from the diaspora (who probably don't even speak Serbian well) start "teaching serbian" to those they disagree with in Serbia.

Someone should write a play.

It could be a hit in Belgrade.

Don't forget that Goran Hadzic was a ranking officer and member of a terrorist force that was guilty of an illegal occupation of the territory of an internationally recognized sovereign state. How is Serbia ever going to claim Kosovo while not enforcing the same set of standards everywhere else? If the pursuit of international law justifies the Serb crackdown in Kosovo in 1999 then you have no right to complain when other nations do the same. Good job to the Serbian authorities for arresting this criminal! A new dawn in relations in the Balkans might be around the corner now that this ICTY mess is on its way out.

Wrong paraphrase. It's not about 'importance' at all. According to the population census from 1991, about 78% have been Croats, about 12% Serbs. Surely this describes a minority, what else? The Hungarians in Serbia/Vojvodina are a national minority as well. Are they less important citizens than Serbs? Nonsense!
(Analyst, 20 July 2011 18:05)

Yes, but just because the Serbs lost their status as a special minority doesn't mean that they're going to be ethnically-cleansed, or lose all of their rights as human beings. My mother still kept her job as a doctor in a hospital in Zagreb despite the constitutional changes - she only left once the conflict which the people who were purported to "represent her" started.

And people wonder why Operation Storm took place. Maybe if the Republika Srpska Krajina didn't take up arms against the Republic of Croatia, my family would still be living in Croatia, and not as refugees!

Mike and Commentator

thank you for your comments. The problem seems to be how to translate a particular phrase in the constitution; or a subtle change in the constitution at a later date. Because here is another reading of that passage:

"the Republic of Croatia is hereby established as the national state of the Croatian people and a state of members of other *nations and minorities* who are its citizens Serbs, Muslims, Slovenes, Czechs, Slovaks, Italians, Hungarians, Jews and others, who are guaranteed equality with citizens of Croatian nationality"
(http://preambleconstitution.blogspot.com/2010/07/preamble-constitution-of-croatia.html)

I've seen this "nations and minorities" translation many times, whereas you quote the translation "national minorities." Perhaps someone needs to clear that up from the Croatian, or perhaps there was a nasty little amendment after 1995?

Clearly, the translation I have here deems the Serbs, as the first on the list, a "nation" as opposed to the following "minorities"; there is no other way of reading it.

Comentator, you ask what about if serbis said the same about Albanians etc. I assume you are being ironic. The whole point is that the new Serbian constitution of 1990 - released some months befoe the new Croatian constitution - did precisely that: Serbia became the state of the Serbian nation and various "minorities," into which category not only the large Albanian population had to fit, but even more scandalously, this simply wiped away the whole issue of Kosovo's constitutional high level autonomy, one of the may acts of Milosevic which destroyed the Yugoslav federation.

Croatia merely copied the Serbian constituion a few months later, if your translation is the correct one. It copied another thing by the way. Serbia's new 1990 constitution also declared Serbia independent. Read it and check.

Peggy people at this forum know that I have a low tolerance for stupidity, trolling and extreme right wing thinking.

The ones I have offended are guilty of one of those three at some point. But I've been stupid or wrong before as well, and I'm willing to revise my opinion.

However, John Laughland from the reactionary right is not really somebody I respect. He hates the EU with such a rabid passion that his viewpoint is not suprising, nor is it suprising that he supported Milosevic, Mladic etc. In the British context he is a political idiot and in the Serbian context the same is true.

By the way if you want to see another right wing perspective you can find RT interview with Srdja Trifkovic on the same subject, which I've already watched.

Not to say that some of their points aren't valid, but that does not detract from my assertation that Hadzic is a war profiteering criminal. That Hadzic was a member of the Communist Party (before Sloba), that Hadzic then became a member of Ivica Racans Social Democratic Party in Croatia. Can you believe that???

What kind of sick opportunist goes from brotherhood and unity, to implicitly supporting Croatian independence and then goes to Serb nationalist. And he managed all of this in a timescale of less than 5 years...

I'll tell you what kind, a scumbag who believes in nothing but personal material profit. The wars of the former Jugoslavija were littered with such men and I'm truly sorry I have nothing good to say about them. I will at least point out when people are not guilty of such actions (Mladic for example was not a thief).

So I really can't help it if it upsets you when I point out these truths. But like I say every time to you, stop me, deny what I write, tell me I'm wrong and correct my facts.

Rather than try to do that you just get upset or to shift the focus elsewhere.

Trust me when I say that I'm sick of these sick, corrupt men and at least we won't have to talk about them any more now. Their heyday was in the 90's, the average joe couldn't touch them then.

And now does anybody really expect us to shed a tear?

To paraphase, "Croatia" is now for the Croatians and Serbs from now on are no more important here than Croatia's Bulgarian minority (?!? was there even one Bulgarian living in SR Croatia at the time!)
(commentator, 20 July 2011 15:54)

Wrong paraphrase. It's not about 'importance' at all. According to the population census from 1991, about 78% have been Croats, about 12% Serbs. Surely this describes a minority, what else? The Hungarians in Serbia/Vojvodina are a national minority as well. Are they less important citizens than Serbs? Nonsense!

Note also that Germany still has a Nazi executioner wanted by the Hague that it refuses to extradict
(New Zealander, 20 July 2011 12:07)

Germany does not have an international legal obligation to extradite him. Serbia on the other hand does as do all other states in regards to ICTY.

All states have an international legal obligation to arrest and extradite person indicted by the ICTY because the UNSC, which Serbia so much loves, has said so. If ICTY indictes the Nazi executioner, than Germany will also extrdite him to the ICTY.

Bganon, I understand you have your views and prejudices like the rest of us and I understnad what you are trying to say.
Nevertheless, all that you said about Hadzic does not quality him to be handed over to Hague and that was my main point.
If he was this or that he should be tried for those crimes in Serbia but what has that got to do with the Hague?

I was trying to point out exactly what that court is and how it is not suitable to Serbs to be sent there.
You have your opinions on certain people and you won't accept anything they say because of them but that again doesn't mean that they are wrong.

At the end of the day Hadzic was there for his people when it counted the most.
He doesn't deserve the Hauge.

Peggy wrote:
At the end of the day Oric was there for his people when it counted the most. He doesn't deserve the Hauge.
(Peggy, 22 July 2011 09:25)

As with Hadzic?

Peggy the man is a criminal, of course he deserves to be in a jail cell.

Did you notice that Serbia showed any intent to prosecute the man by raising charges against him?

In other words like others he would have got away with it had the Hague not raised charges against him.

At the end of the day Hadzic was there for himself when it counted. And when it counted the most (ethnic cleasning of Serbs from Croatia) he had fled the scene like the coward he was.

The Yugoslav Constitution gave Yugoslav Republics the right to secede only if all other Yugoslav Republics and its two Autonomous Provinces agreed with that secession.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 13:45)

I don't understand Serbian very well and may have missed it... Can you please cite the article of the 1974 SFRY Constitution which states what you said ?



Croatia broke the Yugoslav Constitution and loyal Yugoslavs in the territory of the Yugoslav Republic of Croatia (mostly Krajina Serbs, but also some loyal Croats) were right to defend Yugoslavia and its Constitution and resist the Croatia’s German-backed rebellion.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 13:45)

Did anybody complain to the SFRY Constitutional Court that Croatia violated and SFRY Constitution and, if so, what was the Courts decision. I'm asking because nobody of the people you mentioned was empowered to decide on the consitutionality of what Croatia did.



Goran Hadžić was a loyal Yugoslav and that is why he is being persecuted.
(Michael Thomas, 20 July 2011 13:45)

That's not what the indictment says. The indictement speaks about alleged murder, torture, etc. Being a loyal Yugoslav is not a license to (allegedly) committ the above acts.

Ivan-you're the joke. Your posts are hilarious and always make me chuckle.

Note also that Germany still has a Nazi executioner wanted by the Hague that it refuses to extradict
(New Zealander, 20 July 2011 12:07)

Germany does not have an international legal obligation to extradite him. Serbia on the other hand does as do all other states in regards to ICTY.

All states have an international legal obligation to arrest and extradite person indicted by the ICTY because the UNSC, which Serbia so much loves, has said so. If ICTY indictes the Nazi executioner, than Germany will also extrdite him to the ICTY.
(icj1, 21 July 2011 04:28)

I'm not arguing in Hadzic's defense, nor am I a Serb, only I see it pointless that some countries have to extridict their war criminals while others do not

I was right! The 1990 constitution is here: http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/hr01000_.html and includes the formulation "nations and minorities". So Serbs were not relegated to "minority" status in 1990. However, there were amendments in 1997, 2000 and 2001, and one of them changed this formulation to "national minorities" as in http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/hr00000_.html, not sure which amendment, but I suspect 1997 when Tudjman was triumphant after storm.

DimTuc,

The way I see it, the wording of the Croatian Constitution was ambiguous enough to allow Tudjman, or more likely his supporters, the ability of disenfranchising Serbian communities from Croatian. The term "constitutional nationalism" was one that academic sources applied to Tudjman's type of national populism in the early 1990s in which a member of the Croatian "nation", which includes anyone in Croatia, the region, or around the world, that meets the ethno-religious qualifications of being "Croat" could enjoy full rights and benefits in the new Croatian state. Conversely, a non-Croat citizen of Croatia, in this case the Croatian Serbs, were downgraded in pay, job opportunities, and representation. So Croat ex-pats come back and are given jobs that were taken away from native Serb communities.

Something I note was very similar to Milosevic's policy of eliminating Kosovo's autonomy and disenfranchising the Albanian community. It all starts with economic discrepancies and disenfranchisement, which leads to the radicalization of politics.

So of course those Serbs who had a job, or better yet some form of job security, in SFRJ and now suddenly don't in the newly independent Croatia, are most likely going to resist Tudjman's policies. Coupled with his foolish romanticism with anything smacking of Croatian independence - including the NDH of all things! - the hastily organized RSK easily found willing adherents. I personally can't blame them for joining.

Now does this justify the crimes committed afterwards? Absolutely not, and there's a major problem with both Serb and Croatian nationalists in trying to equate what I think is the justifiable creation of RSK into the seige of Vukovar. One does not logically lead to the other. In any event, Croats see RSK as a rejection by Serbs to be loyal Croatian citizens, justified by Vukovar, and Serbs see RSK as a form of organized defense against what basically amounted to state-sponsored apartheid and ethnocentrism in Zagreb, justified first by Tudjman's rhetoric and later by Operation Storm.

But again, this is unrelated to Hadzic and any crimes he might be associated with in the civil war that ensued afterwards. Gotovina met his fate, just as Hadzic should meet his.

Peggy why are you fixated upon before the war? He was a war profiteer during the war. As I pointed out he started as a Jugoslav, then became an advocate of Croatian independence, then became a Serb nationalist.

The reason he had no ideology was because he was going wherever the money was. What he did? Oh stealing, weapons trading with all sides, illegally appropriating oil / petrol and then selling to all sides the usual criminal activities. He was also morally guilty of turning tail as soon as Croatian forces got stronger. These are the things that are clear. I'm not an expert on his wartime activities, but no doubt if it helped his 'financial interests' he would have been willing to order a massacre or two.

What you appear incapable of understanding is the relationship between a lack of morality / criminality and capablity to carry out war crimes. There is a distinct relationship between the two, as history has shown us.

So although I proclaim Hadzic guilty of no morality, of being a thief and being beneath contempt, I don't proclaim him guilty of war crimes - yet. No doubt you find him innocent of war crimes before having even read the charge sheet right?

The poor guy was just defending his people right? Thats a good one, really!

now that the last serb wanted is arressted. the hague can start arresting croatian war criminals, the KLA the bosnian muslim terrorist groups then move on to the USA and UK and the murder of IRAQ and afghan citizens right? i mean you cant invade a soverign terrority murder its people steal its natural resources oh yes you can if its Serbia.

I'm not arguing in Hadzic's defense, nor am I a Serb, only I see it pointless that some countries have to extridict their war criminals while others do not
(New Zealander, 21 July 2011 11:04)

Serbia, too, does not have to extradite its nationals, unless they are indicted by ICTY. The same is true for all other countries, too. They have to extradite if somebody is indicted by ICTY. There is no special treatment for anybody. Not sure what you see as pointless in this.

So although I proclaim Hadzic guilty of no morality, of being a thief and being beneath contempt, I don't proclaim him guilty of war crimes - yet. No doubt you find him innocent of war crimes before having even read the charge sheet right?

The poor guy was just defending his people right? Thats a good one, really!
(bganon, 22 July 2011 17:45)
===============================

I do not find him guilty or innocent of anything. All I asked was how committing crimes BEFORE the war entitled him to be tried in the Hague.
You are the one who is fixated on all sorts of crimes he committed BEFORE the war and all I want to know is how this justifies Hague trial.

That's all but you seem to go on and on and on about his guilt in things he sould be tried for in Serbia.

So don't twist what I am saying. Are you saying he led the Croats during that civil war? If you are then yes, he did not defend his people.

Peggy wrote:
At the end of the day Oric was there for his people when it counted the most. He doesn't deserve the Hauge.
(Peggy, 22 July 2011 09:25)

===========================

I never wrote this. Who is using my name?

now that the last serb wanted is arressted. the hague can start arresting croatian war criminals, the KLA the bosnian muslim terrorist groups then move on to the USA and UK and the murder of IRAQ and afghan citizens right? i mean you cant invade a soverign terrority murder its people steal its natural resources oh yes you can if its Serbia.
(mia, 23 July 2011 02:40)
===========================

You can if it's Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lybia. The US doesn't go in unless there is something in it for the US.
It's all done in the name of humanitarian intervention and anyone who has studies International Relations knows exacty what humanitarian intervention means.

They have already had Oric and Haradinaj and Ganjic but none of them have been found guilty of anything. They DON'T WANT THEM.
They are only interested in finding Serbs guilty of most of the crimes and the most horrible crimes in order to justify their part in the war and them starting the war by proxy.

Maybe one day when BRIC becomes the next power we might have some hope of justice. Until then the only justice that Serbs can count on is the heavenly one.