Montenegro's Statistical Office announced that a recent census showed that 44.9 percent of the country's inhabitants declared themselves as Montenegrins.
very ridiculous all this. One thing is sure all these serbs living around all former Yougoslavia are for these new countries an obstacle for national identity.
The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
Tung
Ciao
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 12 July 2011 22:44)
-- Oh dear. I sincerely hope this is another attempt at someone posing as our friend from frisco and not the real deal.
The official fact is that Montenegro has more people speaking "Serbian" than "Montenegrin", though the latter is 97-99% similar to the former. The official fact is that the so-called Montenegrin Orthodox Church is not canonicaly recognized by any Orthodox Church and is largely, if not entirely, regarded as a politicaly-oriented institution designed to push certain state-sponsored narratives and identities from Podgorica.
If this really is roberto, you seriously need to stick to talking about things you have at least some clue about.
I talked to the current Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, and he told me that the so-called Montenegrin Church supported by Milo Đukanović is non-canonical, unrecognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch and therfore unrecognized by all canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches worldwide.
Dung.
(Roger7, 13 July 2011 14:49)
We should be thankful to God that by His Law while the New Yorker Obersturmbahnführer of Arrow-Cross and the Sanfranciscan SS Standartenführer can move in together - they can't have offspring.
This is the highest wisdom of creation and it underscores God's existence.
I talked to the current Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, and he told me that the so-called Montenegrin Church supported by Milo Đukanović is non-canonical, unrecognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch and therfore unrecognized by all canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches worldwide.
I met Miraš Dedeić, I believe he wants to be called ah, Metropolitan Mihailo, in the states in the 70s (true story). I remember him to be tall, very thin and a chain smoker. The guy should have never cheated on his wife while living in Italy. The canonical church took his collar away long before he proclaimed himself a bishop of some non-canonical so-called church.
Miraš Dedeić needs to sell his used mitre at a second-hand store and move into Đukanović's house.
Ataman,
Not entirely sure what you are rambling about, or what Roberto has got to do with any of it, but if your point is simply that most people have multiple identities, then yes, that's true.
(balkanico, 13 July 2011 11:34)
Aha - and statistics + politics can twist that true fact as they like. Plus idiots like Captain Frisco can drop-by and write some disturbing "facts" without slightest knowledge what they write about and pretend to be an important person (in the reality: an autistic nobody with over-blown ego and BDSM fetish... craving to be beaten into Mother Earth again and again). Well, at least his fetish is satisfied here.
Ataman,
Not entirely sure what you are rambling about, or what Roberto has got to do with any of it, but if your point is simply that most people have multiple identities, then yes, that's true.
The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
Tung
Ciao
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 12 July 2011 22:44)
Said someone who can't distinguish Serbian written in Latinica and Albanian and who never crossed himself in his life. Little test:
a) Is ekavian or iekavian spoken in Montenegro?
b) Do Montenegrins cross left-to-right or right-to-left?
Just answer these. If you can, than the next fact you should know - the "Montenegrin" identity the way it is exposed to the public now was invented by Milo Dukanovic, the same guy who was Milosevic right hand and who is responsible for bombardment of Dubrovnik. Nice people you support.
Otherwise I was thinking, you spoke to Dalai Lama, Putin and Obama in Podgorica - why would you meet some lesser names like Natasa Kandic?
The FIRST step in enthnic ,cultural , religious persaonl identity , is that the individual MUST be the first to accept that identity . You cannot force an identity onto any person(s). If a mojority of persons in Montenegro DO NOT consider themselves to be Serbian , then a majority of persons ARE NOT Serbian - this is not rocket science.
Again I ask , what part of this proven simple fact do you not understand?
(truthiness, 12 July 2011 22:59)
One of the problem with that is if a group has ties to a smaller entity first and to a larger entity and there is no clear definition, what is what.
That Montenegrins consider themself Montenegrin first and only than Serbs is well-known. The problem is that the "Montenegrin" or "Serb" can be twisted according the daily politics and so the statistics.
That people who have nothing to do with either meddling into that subject is even more worrisome: suddenly, that classic little difference became elevated to a level what does tickle phantasy of Roberto-likes. Just because some political twists for liking of American political elite certain Montenegrin politicians do - that makes the entire group a "positive, friendly ethnic group" versus the essentially same group ("Serbs") who have different leadership. Hence, a new ethnic group is born in the head of the Roberto-like imbeciles. The ways of Montenegrin ethnic existence are independent of his phantasies.
The most interesting data, compared to the census in 2003, is that while there has been only a small (less than 4%) decrease in those who consider themselves first and foremost as Serbs, there has been a sharp drop (20%) of those those who refer to their language as Serbian. If anything, this show that the chauvenist attempts at trying to deny the people who do not have a strong Serb identity the right to call the language by the name of their national identity, have failed miserably.
True propaganda from the spin doctors of the BLGD regime.. Not a bit better than Milosevic.
I talked to my friend Natasha Kandic in Podgorica last month and she said that pressure must be applied to Serbia to stop fabricating lies about Montenegros independence. The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
it seems quite remarkable that there is so much depth to the collective selective arguments offered here.
simply because a person speaks a particular 'mother tongue' does not presuppose that they are from that ethnic group. Example : I am from Australia , I speak english, the only language I speak fluently , but make no mistake , I am NOT English (wonderful people that they are tho)- therefore any argument that says a person is defined as an ethnic group by the language they speak is non existant.
The FIRST step in enthnic ,cultural , religious persaonl identity , is that the individual MUST be the first to accept that identity . You cannot force an identity onto any person(s). If a mojority of persons in Montenegro DO NOT consider themselves to be Serbian , then a majority of persons ARE NOT Serbian - this is not rocket science.
Again I ask , what part of this proven simple fact do you not understand?
Muslims don't have to be Bosnian. Duh.
(BS Artist, 12 July 2011 17:35)
Yes they do actually. Because anyone who uses "Bosnian" as a nationality is Muslim. It's a fabricated term as is Bosniaks. This was because simply calling them "Muslims" would imply what we knew all along, they are only Islamicized-Serbs who converted when the Turks came to the Balkans. Tito gives "Bosnian s" a separate national program (as with "Montenegrins") and gives Bosnia republic status.
As far as this census goes, the key thing here is that most of the citizens say they speak Serbian. This worries Djukanovic & his team because they are the successors to this fabrication of a nation state. This is exactly why the Serbian Orthodox Church is being harassed in Montenegro and Djukanovic keeps making statements supporting the fabricated Orthodox church in Montenegro, that the world doesn't recognize, and people in Montenegro themselves don't.
People have for generations called themselves a "Bosanac" or a "Crno Gorac". It just identifies what region you come from, never did it determine your nationality.
The statistical FACTS are majority of people in MNTE say they speak Serbian and the Serbian Orthodox Church is the most trusted institution in the country.
Montenegro will willingly, and happily integrate into Serbia as countries in Europe start to default. Only difference, if I were Serbia I'd only offer Vojvodina type autonomy but not republic status. The country needs to stay as "Serbia" and nothing else.
It seems for me, people do not use the word "Serb" the same way.
Regardless, all of them - be they "Dalmatinci" or from Valjevo - they do speak the same language and have a lot of common things in their character and habits and beyond reasonable doubt originated from largely same area (south-west of Poland) good 1500 years ago.
Now if a Dalmatinac decides to call himself a "wooden elf" - than it can be respected, but from my point of view that does not make him a thin, green humanoid creature with pointy ears living up in the woods of Sherwood Forest. So he is a "wooden elf" for himself but I will call him privately a "Serbo-Croat" with some "hihihihi" grin and at least for me the case is closed.
It should be a harsh reality to the Montenegrin flip-flop politicians that lots of Serbs live in Montenegro. The number of the constituent Serbs has declined since previous census due to the pressure that citizens, who declared themselves as Serbs, suffer. They are in a sort of a dodge ball. I would welcome a fact that the world at last seems willing to exercise its so-called duty to protect national and civil rights of people when their own governments exert compulsion.As for the Montenegrin politicians’ mantra as regards Kosovo’s secession that Serbia should not escape from reality,I also suggest that the reality is that Serbian is spoken by the majority of citizens in MG and the Serbs should have their political and territorial autonomy.
I could consider myself to be an alien of Martian ethnicity, but it still doesn't take away the fact that my ethnic heritage is actually Serbian, no matter what I call myself. Differences between Serbian and Montenegrin culture and "ethnicity" are akin to the differences between Albanian culture and Kosovar Albanian culture... Which aren't significant (I'll be honest - I don't know anything about the cultural differences between Albanians in Albania and Kosovo, so if they are quite large, then I apologise). If all the Kosovar Albanians were to declare themselves in a census to be "Kosovar", would you still not deny the fact that anthropologically, they are Albanian?
Granted, we DO live in a society based on free speech and the freedom of choice (well, I do, anyway), so people have the right to call themselves whatever they like. At the same time, though, the idea that Montenegrins are Serbs is not a nationalist or irredentist ploy - it's widely accepted to be true.
To this truthiness character
If ethnic declaration is what determines their identity, then I wonder what kind of politics the Montenegrins who speak Serbian (it seems that close to half of the self-declared Montenegrins, speak no Montenegrin language) - afterall Croats and Muslims wouldn't declare themselves Serb speakers.
Apparently selective deafness is not the only feature of nationaists , now it appears selective sight is also an apparent feature.
Please READ the following sentence as quoted from B92.......
"According to this, 28.77 of Montenegro's citizens said they were Serbs."
Ergo , 71.23% are NOT Serbians.
Let me state this very clearlly and slowlllllyyyyy. Montenegrins DO NOT consider themselves to be serbs. What part of the above statment is not clear to you.
Talk about denial.
(truthiness, 12 July 2011 15:40) really are you sure about that well i am Montenegrin but Serb like all and that's why almost 45% speak Serbian hey ,next time you should read and understand mr. albanian what you are reading and those 4.5% that never took the census were serbs so just worry about the 35% none albanians in albania and not about montengro or anywhere else.
Apparently selective deafness is not the only feature of nationaists , now it appears selective sight is also an apparent feature.
Please READ the following sentence as quoted from B92.......
"According to this, 28.77 of Montenegro's citizens said they were Serbs."
Ergo , 71.23% are NOT Serbians.
Let me state this very clearlly and slowlllllyyyyy. Montenegrins DO NOT consider themselves to be serbs. What part of the above statment is not clear to you.
"Beside Montenegrins and Serbs, other ethnicities include Albanians (4.91 percent), Bosniaks (8.65 percent), Muslims (3.31 percent), Roma (1.01 percent), and Croats (0.92 percent). "
If I convert to Buddhism - will I become a new ethnic element than? Can I apply for some extra money based on that? And how about Croats who convert to Shamanism?
Questions, questions. The best country on Planet Earth regarding minority policies is Russia by the way - hands down. I am not joking, you can declare yourself wooden elf or a dwarf, even an archmage (as an ethnic element).
Buddhist Wooden Elf does look pretty good for me, so I may try that in Montenegro, hope I can get some extra money and buy a house close to the beach.
that's all good and it shows that motenegrins are Serbs because 44% say they spoke serbian so that just shows they live in montengro but speak serbian and are serbs and it shows that over 4% never took the census which they were serbs so thats done and in more news it shows more and more of Montenegro want to be closer to their big brother serbia which makes sense and look at the albanians they have fallen from 5.8 to 4.9% wow they are finally thinking of making kids if they could afford it and not let them live in the streets.
Montenegrins are Serbs,even if they call themselves Montenegrins,so no problem with that!
I like the fact that the Albanian population has decreased from 5,5% to 4,9% in a decade,therever they are they produce trouble and chaos with their ultranationalist Greater Albanian dreams!
Montenegrins are Serbs,even if they call themselves Montenegrins,so no problem with that!
I like the fact that the Albanian population has decreased from 5,5% to 4,9% in a decade,therever they are they produce trouble and chaos with their ultranationalist Greater Albanian dreams!
that's all good and it shows that motenegrins are Serbs because 44% say they spoke serbian so that just shows they live in montengro but speak serbian and are serbs and it shows that over 4% never took the census which they were serbs so thats done and in more news it shows more and more of Montenegro want to be closer to their big brother serbia which makes sense and look at the albanians they have fallen from 5.8 to 4.9% wow they are finally thinking of making kids if they could afford it and not let them live in the streets.
I could consider myself to be an alien of Martian ethnicity, but it still doesn't take away the fact that my ethnic heritage is actually Serbian, no matter what I call myself. Differences between Serbian and Montenegrin culture and "ethnicity" are akin to the differences between Albanian culture and Kosovar Albanian culture... Which aren't significant (I'll be honest - I don't know anything about the cultural differences between Albanians in Albania and Kosovo, so if they are quite large, then I apologise). If all the Kosovar Albanians were to declare themselves in a census to be "Kosovar", would you still not deny the fact that anthropologically, they are Albanian?
Granted, we DO live in a society based on free speech and the freedom of choice (well, I do, anyway), so people have the right to call themselves whatever they like. At the same time, though, the idea that Montenegrins are Serbs is not a nationalist or irredentist ploy - it's widely accepted to be true.
"Beside Montenegrins and Serbs, other ethnicities include Albanians (4.91 percent), Bosniaks (8.65 percent), Muslims (3.31 percent), Roma (1.01 percent), and Croats (0.92 percent). "
If I convert to Buddhism - will I become a new ethnic element than? Can I apply for some extra money based on that? And how about Croats who convert to Shamanism?
Questions, questions. The best country on Planet Earth regarding minority policies is Russia by the way - hands down. I am not joking, you can declare yourself wooden elf or a dwarf, even an archmage (as an ethnic element).
Buddhist Wooden Elf does look pretty good for me, so I may try that in Montenegro, hope I can get some extra money and buy a house close to the beach.
Apparently selective deafness is not the only feature of nationaists , now it appears selective sight is also an apparent feature.
Please READ the following sentence as quoted from B92.......
"According to this, 28.77 of Montenegro's citizens said they were Serbs."
Ergo , 71.23% are NOT Serbians.
Let me state this very clearlly and slowlllllyyyyy. Montenegrins DO NOT consider themselves to be serbs. What part of the above statment is not clear to you.
To this truthiness character
If ethnic declaration is what determines their identity, then I wonder what kind of politics the Montenegrins who speak Serbian (it seems that close to half of the self-declared Montenegrins, speak no Montenegrin language) - afterall Croats and Muslims wouldn't declare themselves Serb speakers.
Muslims don't have to be Bosnian. Duh.
(BS Artist, 12 July 2011 17:35)
Yes they do actually. Because anyone who uses "Bosnian" as a nationality is Muslim. It's a fabricated term as is Bosniaks. This was because simply calling them "Muslims" would imply what we knew all along, they are only Islamicized-Serbs who converted when the Turks came to the Balkans. Tito gives "Bosnian s" a separate national program (as with "Montenegrins") and gives Bosnia republic status.
As far as this census goes, the key thing here is that most of the citizens say they speak Serbian. This worries Djukanovic & his team because they are the successors to this fabrication of a nation state. This is exactly why the Serbian Orthodox Church is being harassed in Montenegro and Djukanovic keeps making statements supporting the fabricated Orthodox church in Montenegro, that the world doesn't recognize, and people in Montenegro themselves don't.
People have for generations called themselves a "Bosanac" or a "Crno Gorac". It just identifies what region you come from, never did it determine your nationality.
The statistical FACTS are majority of people in MNTE say they speak Serbian and the Serbian Orthodox Church is the most trusted institution in the country.
Montenegro will willingly, and happily integrate into Serbia as countries in Europe start to default. Only difference, if I were Serbia I'd only offer Vojvodina type autonomy but not republic status. The country needs to stay as "Serbia" and nothing else.
Apparently selective deafness is not the only feature of nationaists , now it appears selective sight is also an apparent feature.
Please READ the following sentence as quoted from B92.......
"According to this, 28.77 of Montenegro's citizens said they were Serbs."
Ergo , 71.23% are NOT Serbians.
Let me state this very clearlly and slowlllllyyyyy. Montenegrins DO NOT consider themselves to be serbs. What part of the above statment is not clear to you.
Talk about denial.
(truthiness, 12 July 2011 15:40) really are you sure about that well i am Montenegrin but Serb like all and that's why almost 45% speak Serbian hey ,next time you should read and understand mr. albanian what you are reading and those 4.5% that never took the census were serbs so just worry about the 35% none albanians in albania and not about montengro or anywhere else.
It should be a harsh reality to the Montenegrin flip-flop politicians that lots of Serbs live in Montenegro. The number of the constituent Serbs has declined since previous census due to the pressure that citizens, who declared themselves as Serbs, suffer. They are in a sort of a dodge ball. I would welcome a fact that the world at last seems willing to exercise its so-called duty to protect national and civil rights of people when their own governments exert compulsion.As for the Montenegrin politicians’ mantra as regards Kosovo’s secession that Serbia should not escape from reality,I also suggest that the reality is that Serbian is spoken by the majority of citizens in MG and the Serbs should have their political and territorial autonomy.
The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
Tung
Ciao
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 12 July 2011 22:44)
Said someone who can't distinguish Serbian written in Latinica and Albanian and who never crossed himself in his life. Little test:
a) Is ekavian or iekavian spoken in Montenegro?
b) Do Montenegrins cross left-to-right or right-to-left?
Just answer these. If you can, than the next fact you should know - the "Montenegrin" identity the way it is exposed to the public now was invented by Milo Dukanovic, the same guy who was Milosevic right hand and who is responsible for bombardment of Dubrovnik. Nice people you support.
Otherwise I was thinking, you spoke to Dalai Lama, Putin and Obama in Podgorica - why would you meet some lesser names like Natasa Kandic?
I talked to the current Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, and he told me that the so-called Montenegrin Church supported by Milo Đukanović is non-canonical, unrecognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch and therfore unrecognized by all canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches worldwide.
I met Miraš Dedeić, I believe he wants to be called ah, Metropolitan Mihailo, in the states in the 70s (true story). I remember him to be tall, very thin and a chain smoker. The guy should have never cheated on his wife while living in Italy. The canonical church took his collar away long before he proclaimed himself a bishop of some non-canonical so-called church.
Miraš Dedeić needs to sell his used mitre at a second-hand store and move into Đukanović's house.
It seems for me, people do not use the word "Serb" the same way.
Regardless, all of them - be they "Dalmatinci" or from Valjevo - they do speak the same language and have a lot of common things in their character and habits and beyond reasonable doubt originated from largely same area (south-west of Poland) good 1500 years ago.
Now if a Dalmatinac decides to call himself a "wooden elf" - than it can be respected, but from my point of view that does not make him a thin, green humanoid creature with pointy ears living up in the woods of Sherwood Forest. So he is a "wooden elf" for himself but I will call him privately a "Serbo-Croat" with some "hihihihi" grin and at least for me the case is closed.
The FIRST step in enthnic ,cultural , religious persaonl identity , is that the individual MUST be the first to accept that identity . You cannot force an identity onto any person(s). If a mojority of persons in Montenegro DO NOT consider themselves to be Serbian , then a majority of persons ARE NOT Serbian - this is not rocket science.
Again I ask , what part of this proven simple fact do you not understand?
(truthiness, 12 July 2011 22:59)
One of the problem with that is if a group has ties to a smaller entity first and to a larger entity and there is no clear definition, what is what.
That Montenegrins consider themself Montenegrin first and only than Serbs is well-known. The problem is that the "Montenegrin" or "Serb" can be twisted according the daily politics and so the statistics.
That people who have nothing to do with either meddling into that subject is even more worrisome: suddenly, that classic little difference became elevated to a level what does tickle phantasy of Roberto-likes. Just because some political twists for liking of American political elite certain Montenegrin politicians do - that makes the entire group a "positive, friendly ethnic group" versus the essentially same group ("Serbs") who have different leadership. Hence, a new ethnic group is born in the head of the Roberto-like imbeciles. The ways of Montenegrin ethnic existence are independent of his phantasies.
The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
Tung
Ciao
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 12 July 2011 22:44)
-- Oh dear. I sincerely hope this is another attempt at someone posing as our friend from frisco and not the real deal.
The official fact is that Montenegro has more people speaking "Serbian" than "Montenegrin", though the latter is 97-99% similar to the former. The official fact is that the so-called Montenegrin Orthodox Church is not canonicaly recognized by any Orthodox Church and is largely, if not entirely, regarded as a politicaly-oriented institution designed to push certain state-sponsored narratives and identities from Podgorica.
If this really is roberto, you seriously need to stick to talking about things you have at least some clue about.
Ataman,
Not entirely sure what you are rambling about, or what Roberto has got to do with any of it, but if your point is simply that most people have multiple identities, then yes, that's true.
(balkanico, 13 July 2011 11:34)
Aha - and statistics + politics can twist that true fact as they like. Plus idiots like Captain Frisco can drop-by and write some disturbing "facts" without slightest knowledge what they write about and pretend to be an important person (in the reality: an autistic nobody with over-blown ego and BDSM fetish... craving to be beaten into Mother Earth again and again). Well, at least his fetish is satisfied here.
I talked to the current Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, and he told me that the so-called Montenegrin Church supported by Milo Đukanović is non-canonical, unrecognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch and therfore unrecognized by all canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches worldwide.
Dung.
(Roger7, 13 July 2011 14:49)
We should be thankful to God that by His Law while the New Yorker Obersturmbahnführer of Arrow-Cross and the Sanfranciscan SS Standartenführer can move in together - they can't have offspring.
This is the highest wisdom of creation and it underscores God's existence.
it seems quite remarkable that there is so much depth to the collective selective arguments offered here.
simply because a person speaks a particular 'mother tongue' does not presuppose that they are from that ethnic group. Example : I am from Australia , I speak english, the only language I speak fluently , but make no mistake , I am NOT English (wonderful people that they are tho)- therefore any argument that says a person is defined as an ethnic group by the language they speak is non existant.
The FIRST step in enthnic ,cultural , religious persaonl identity , is that the individual MUST be the first to accept that identity . You cannot force an identity onto any person(s). If a mojority of persons in Montenegro DO NOT consider themselves to be Serbian , then a majority of persons ARE NOT Serbian - this is not rocket science.
Again I ask , what part of this proven simple fact do you not understand?
Ataman,
Not entirely sure what you are rambling about, or what Roberto has got to do with any of it, but if your point is simply that most people have multiple identities, then yes, that's true.
True propaganda from the spin doctors of the BLGD regime.. Not a bit better than Milosevic.
I talked to my friend Natasha Kandic in Podgorica last month and she said that pressure must be applied to Serbia to stop fabricating lies about Montenegros independence. The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
The most interesting data, compared to the census in 2003, is that while there has been only a small (less than 4%) decrease in those who consider themselves first and foremost as Serbs, there has been a sharp drop (20%) of those those who refer to their language as Serbian. If anything, this show that the chauvenist attempts at trying to deny the people who do not have a strong Serb identity the right to call the language by the name of their national identity, have failed miserably.
very ridiculous all this. One thing is sure all these serbs living around all former Yougoslavia are for these new countries an obstacle for national identity.
Apparently selective deafness is not the only feature of nationaists , now it appears selective sight is also an apparent feature.
Please READ the following sentence as quoted from B92.......
"According to this, 28.77 of Montenegro's citizens said they were Serbs."
Ergo , 71.23% are NOT Serbians.
Let me state this very clearlly and slowlllllyyyyy. Montenegrins DO NOT consider themselves to be serbs. What part of the above statment is not clear to you.
Montenegrins are Serbs,even if they call themselves Montenegrins,so no problem with that!
I like the fact that the Albanian population has decreased from 5,5% to 4,9% in a decade,therever they are they produce trouble and chaos with their ultranationalist Greater Albanian dreams!
that's all good and it shows that motenegrins are Serbs because 44% say they spoke serbian so that just shows they live in montengro but speak serbian and are serbs and it shows that over 4% never took the census which they were serbs so thats done and in more news it shows more and more of Montenegro want to be closer to their big brother serbia which makes sense and look at the albanians they have fallen from 5.8 to 4.9% wow they are finally thinking of making kids if they could afford it and not let them live in the streets.
True propaganda from the spin doctors of the BLGD regime.. Not a bit better than Milosevic.
I talked to my friend Natasha Kandic in Podgorica last month and she said that pressure must be applied to Serbia to stop fabricating lies about Montenegros independence. The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
I could consider myself to be an alien of Martian ethnicity, but it still doesn't take away the fact that my ethnic heritage is actually Serbian, no matter what I call myself. Differences between Serbian and Montenegrin culture and "ethnicity" are akin to the differences between Albanian culture and Kosovar Albanian culture... Which aren't significant (I'll be honest - I don't know anything about the cultural differences between Albanians in Albania and Kosovo, so if they are quite large, then I apologise). If all the Kosovar Albanians were to declare themselves in a census to be "Kosovar", would you still not deny the fact that anthropologically, they are Albanian?
Granted, we DO live in a society based on free speech and the freedom of choice (well, I do, anyway), so people have the right to call themselves whatever they like. At the same time, though, the idea that Montenegrins are Serbs is not a nationalist or irredentist ploy - it's widely accepted to be true.
Apparently selective deafness is not the only feature of nationaists , now it appears selective sight is also an apparent feature.
Please READ the following sentence as quoted from B92.......
"According to this, 28.77 of Montenegro's citizens said they were Serbs."
Ergo , 71.23% are NOT Serbians.
Let me state this very clearlly and slowlllllyyyyy. Montenegrins DO NOT consider themselves to be serbs. What part of the above statment is not clear to you.
Talk about denial.
(truthiness, 12 July 2011 15:40) really are you sure about that well i am Montenegrin but Serb like all and that's why almost 45% speak Serbian hey ,next time you should read and understand mr. albanian what you are reading and those 4.5% that never took the census were serbs so just worry about the 35% none albanians in albania and not about montengro or anywhere else.
The most interesting data, compared to the census in 2003, is that while there has been only a small (less than 4%) decrease in those who consider themselves first and foremost as Serbs, there has been a sharp drop (20%) of those those who refer to their language as Serbian. If anything, this show that the chauvenist attempts at trying to deny the people who do not have a strong Serb identity the right to call the language by the name of their national identity, have failed miserably.
"Beside Montenegrins and Serbs, other ethnicities include Albanians (4.91 percent), Bosniaks (8.65 percent), Muslims (3.31 percent), Roma (1.01 percent), and Croats (0.92 percent). "
If I convert to Buddhism - will I become a new ethnic element than? Can I apply for some extra money based on that? And how about Croats who convert to Shamanism?
Questions, questions. The best country on Planet Earth regarding minority policies is Russia by the way - hands down. I am not joking, you can declare yourself wooden elf or a dwarf, even an archmage (as an ethnic element).
Buddhist Wooden Elf does look pretty good for me, so I may try that in Montenegro, hope I can get some extra money and buy a house close to the beach.
Muslims don't have to be Bosnian. Duh.
(BS Artist, 12 July 2011 17:35)
Yes they do actually. Because anyone who uses "Bosnian" as a nationality is Muslim. It's a fabricated term as is Bosniaks. This was because simply calling them "Muslims" would imply what we knew all along, they are only Islamicized-Serbs who converted when the Turks came to the Balkans. Tito gives "Bosnian s" a separate national program (as with "Montenegrins") and gives Bosnia republic status.
As far as this census goes, the key thing here is that most of the citizens say they speak Serbian. This worries Djukanovic & his team because they are the successors to this fabrication of a nation state. This is exactly why the Serbian Orthodox Church is being harassed in Montenegro and Djukanovic keeps making statements supporting the fabricated Orthodox church in Montenegro, that the world doesn't recognize, and people in Montenegro themselves don't.
People have for generations called themselves a "Bosanac" or a "Crno Gorac". It just identifies what region you come from, never did it determine your nationality.
The statistical FACTS are majority of people in MNTE say they speak Serbian and the Serbian Orthodox Church is the most trusted institution in the country.
Montenegro will willingly, and happily integrate into Serbia as countries in Europe start to default. Only difference, if I were Serbia I'd only offer Vojvodina type autonomy but not republic status. The country needs to stay as "Serbia" and nothing else.
it seems quite remarkable that there is so much depth to the collective selective arguments offered here.
simply because a person speaks a particular 'mother tongue' does not presuppose that they are from that ethnic group. Example : I am from Australia , I speak english, the only language I speak fluently , but make no mistake , I am NOT English (wonderful people that they are tho)- therefore any argument that says a person is defined as an ethnic group by the language they speak is non existant.
The FIRST step in enthnic ,cultural , religious persaonl identity , is that the individual MUST be the first to accept that identity . You cannot force an identity onto any person(s). If a mojority of persons in Montenegro DO NOT consider themselves to be Serbian , then a majority of persons ARE NOT Serbian - this is not rocket science.
Again I ask , what part of this proven simple fact do you not understand?
The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
Tung
Ciao
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 12 July 2011 22:44)
Said someone who can't distinguish Serbian written in Latinica and Albanian and who never crossed himself in his life. Little test:
a) Is ekavian or iekavian spoken in Montenegro?
b) Do Montenegrins cross left-to-right or right-to-left?
Just answer these. If you can, than the next fact you should know - the "Montenegrin" identity the way it is exposed to the public now was invented by Milo Dukanovic, the same guy who was Milosevic right hand and who is responsible for bombardment of Dubrovnik. Nice people you support.
Otherwise I was thinking, you spoke to Dalai Lama, Putin and Obama in Podgorica - why would you meet some lesser names like Natasa Kandic?
It should be a harsh reality to the Montenegrin flip-flop politicians that lots of Serbs live in Montenegro. The number of the constituent Serbs has declined since previous census due to the pressure that citizens, who declared themselves as Serbs, suffer. They are in a sort of a dodge ball. I would welcome a fact that the world at last seems willing to exercise its so-called duty to protect national and civil rights of people when their own governments exert compulsion.As for the Montenegrin politicians’ mantra as regards Kosovo’s secession that Serbia should not escape from reality,I also suggest that the reality is that Serbian is spoken by the majority of citizens in MG and the Serbs should have their political and territorial autonomy.
To this truthiness character
If ethnic declaration is what determines their identity, then I wonder what kind of politics the Montenegrins who speak Serbian (it seems that close to half of the self-declared Montenegrins, speak no Montenegrin language) - afterall Croats and Muslims wouldn't declare themselves Serb speakers.
It seems for me, people do not use the word "Serb" the same way.
Regardless, all of them - be they "Dalmatinci" or from Valjevo - they do speak the same language and have a lot of common things in their character and habits and beyond reasonable doubt originated from largely same area (south-west of Poland) good 1500 years ago.
Now if a Dalmatinac decides to call himself a "wooden elf" - than it can be respected, but from my point of view that does not make him a thin, green humanoid creature with pointy ears living up in the woods of Sherwood Forest. So he is a "wooden elf" for himself but I will call him privately a "Serbo-Croat" with some "hihihihi" grin and at least for me the case is closed.
The FIRST step in enthnic ,cultural , religious persaonl identity , is that the individual MUST be the first to accept that identity . You cannot force an identity onto any person(s). If a mojority of persons in Montenegro DO NOT consider themselves to be Serbian , then a majority of persons ARE NOT Serbian - this is not rocket science.
Again I ask , what part of this proven simple fact do you not understand?
(truthiness, 12 July 2011 22:59)
One of the problem with that is if a group has ties to a smaller entity first and to a larger entity and there is no clear definition, what is what.
That Montenegrins consider themself Montenegrin first and only than Serbs is well-known. The problem is that the "Montenegrin" or "Serb" can be twisted according the daily politics and so the statistics.
That people who have nothing to do with either meddling into that subject is even more worrisome: suddenly, that classic little difference became elevated to a level what does tickle phantasy of Roberto-likes. Just because some political twists for liking of American political elite certain Montenegrin politicians do - that makes the entire group a "positive, friendly ethnic group" versus the essentially same group ("Serbs") who have different leadership. Hence, a new ethnic group is born in the head of the Roberto-like imbeciles. The ways of Montenegrin ethnic existence are independent of his phantasies.
Ataman,
Not entirely sure what you are rambling about, or what Roberto has got to do with any of it, but if your point is simply that most people have multiple identities, then yes, that's true.
I talked to the current Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, and he told me that the so-called Montenegrin Church supported by Milo Đukanović is non-canonical, unrecognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch and therfore unrecognized by all canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches worldwide.
I met Miraš Dedeić, I believe he wants to be called ah, Metropolitan Mihailo, in the states in the 70s (true story). I remember him to be tall, very thin and a chain smoker. The guy should have never cheated on his wife while living in Italy. The canonical church took his collar away long before he proclaimed himself a bishop of some non-canonical so-called church.
Miraš Dedeić needs to sell his used mitre at a second-hand store and move into Đukanović's house.
Ataman,
Not entirely sure what you are rambling about, or what Roberto has got to do with any of it, but if your point is simply that most people have multiple identities, then yes, that's true.
(balkanico, 13 July 2011 11:34)
Aha - and statistics + politics can twist that true fact as they like. Plus idiots like Captain Frisco can drop-by and write some disturbing "facts" without slightest knowledge what they write about and pretend to be an important person (in the reality: an autistic nobody with over-blown ego and BDSM fetish... craving to be beaten into Mother Earth again and again). Well, at least his fetish is satisfied here.
I talked to the current Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, and he told me that the so-called Montenegrin Church supported by Milo Đukanović is non-canonical, unrecognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch and therfore unrecognized by all canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches worldwide.
Dung.
(Roger7, 13 July 2011 14:49)
We should be thankful to God that by His Law while the New Yorker Obersturmbahnführer of Arrow-Cross and the Sanfranciscan SS Standartenführer can move in together - they can't have offspring.
This is the highest wisdom of creation and it underscores God's existence.
very ridiculous all this. One thing is sure all these serbs living around all former Yougoslavia are for these new countries an obstacle for national identity.
The official fact is that the language spoken in Montenegro is Montenegrin and that the official church is the Montenegrin church.
Tung
Ciao
Roberto from Frisco
(Roberto, 12 July 2011 22:44)
-- Oh dear. I sincerely hope this is another attempt at someone posing as our friend from frisco and not the real deal.
The official fact is that Montenegro has more people speaking "Serbian" than "Montenegrin", though the latter is 97-99% similar to the former. The official fact is that the so-called Montenegrin Orthodox Church is not canonicaly recognized by any Orthodox Church and is largely, if not entirely, regarded as a politicaly-oriented institution designed to push certain state-sponsored narratives and identities from Podgorica.
If this really is roberto, you seriously need to stick to talking about things you have at least some clue about.
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