Tadić: Serbia supports Bosnia’s integrity

"However, I am still a little puzzled how any Bosnian official can claim that Muslums in Serbia (many referring to themselves as Bosniaks today) are somehow ethnic Bosnians, in the same way as Bosnian Serbs are ethnic Serbs."
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Are you for real? How can you possibly ask that question?
So what do you call Orthodox people in Bosnia or Croatia?

I was born in Sarajevo and I consider myself Serbian. Are you telling me that I don't know who and what I am and you are going to teach me?

Bgannon, you are sounding more ridiculous every day.

I'm glad that Tadic is continuing improving regional relations, it is one of the few spheres where has enjoyed success.

However, I am still a little puzzled how any Bosnian official can claim that Muslums in Serbia (many referring to themselves as Bosniaks today) are somehow ethnic Bosnians, in the same way as Bosnian Serbs are ethnic Serbs.

It stinks a little of ethnic politics.

I suppose this is the point at which Lenard will give me a lecture about Serbian guilt / responsiblity for this and that (even though Bosnia has decorated Tadic with a medal).

Sometimes I wonder if we managed to resolve our issues between ourselves what our embittered complainers would do with their lives. I suppose they would complain about something else, or they may finally realise that they themselves have a problem that needs to be dealt with...

"Bgannon, you are sounding more ridiculous every day."

Agree but not surprised. How could possibly a hardcore Otpor™ fanatic sound otherwise? She, like the rest of the western remote-controlled Otpor™-zombies must convince themselves everyday, they did the right thing. Reality wouldn´t occur to them even if they where hit by a train (which they where but apparently never recovered).

Bakir's remarks are telling and it's unheard of since 1990 for a Muslim leader to stress commonalities with Serbia. Tadic is hated by Muslim chauvinists in BiH and frankly so is Bakir. The fact is that BiH & Serbia have too much in common to be seperate states.

Peggy so you don't agree with me that Bosniaks / Slav Muslums in Serbia should consider Serbia their country and not Bosnia?

I'm baffled, next you will be telling me that Sandzak has to right to seccede to Bosnia.

Since you made such a comment about religion being fixed to ethnic group let me ask you something, I have a female Serbian friend who married an Irishman who is catholic from a traditional family. They asked that she convert to cathlocism which she did.

Is she now a Croat?

Or how about a (fictional, but I'm sure it must have happened) Croatian female marrying a Russian who asks her for conversion. Is she now a Serb?

How is it then, that in western societies religion is a personal choice and according to you a Serb must be Orthodox and a Croat Catholic?

Those are some very backward ideas you have there Peggy. An Australian can choose one's religion but a Serb / Croat cannot, or if they do they change ethnic group automatically???

I can tell you only factually what you are Peggy. If you have Serbian citizenship then you are Serbian, if you are a Serb ethnically then you are Serb. If you have Bosnian nationality for example you are Bosnian (Serb).

I am glad to see that bganon agrees with Dr. Vojislav Seselj. Seselj is right when he says that Croats are catholicized Serbs, and Bosnian muslims are converted muslim Serbs. Emir Kusturica is a fine example of a Serb who knows his roots. Way to go bganon, you are seeing the light girl!
Cheers!!

I don´t think Peggy misunderstood anything at all.

For all "Bganon" and other Otpor™ remote controlled people care, they may be Serbs by birth(hard to deny), but miraculously reborn Anglo-American "enlightened ones" (Herrenvolk) baptised by the "humanitarian bombs" (the holy hand-grenades of Antioch) which NATO mercifully unleashed to start the "birth pangs of "democrasy" in our dark corner of the world. They are the choosen ones to lead the uneducated and back-warded infidels to a prosperous NWO, or so they think. It is a quite futile quest to argue with such people but good luck anyway.....

Bosnia as a sovereign state is somewhat of a joke, one only needs to travel from Croatia then into Bosnia and onto Serbia to see that these countries are the same. What kind of a country exists under the dictatorship of a UN high representative, and a rotating Bosnian presidency? The fact that Serbs, Muslims and Croats pretty much all vote for parties which represent their ethnic group is proof that Bosnia is a country in which there is still bitterness. Republika Srpska should be a part of Serbia, it is what they want but the West will never allow it. Just as the Croats would love to annex Hercegovina and other Croat populated areas, and if the Muslims had it how they truly desire then Bosnia would be dominated by them, but of course that would be tragic. The only Muslim identity is the fact that they are Muslim, nothing else separates them from Serbs, yet they waged war for nothing, even under the Serbian monarchy before WWII the Muslims were treated well and this meant for less tension between them and Serbs. But then they went and tarnished it all in the 90s.

I sincerely believe the Bosnain Muslims feel they have much more in common with Serbs and would actually welcome a significant rapprochement.
When are the muslims and the Crooats going to admit that they made mistakes too and that serbs have suffered also. It would make everything so much easier. I guess their s*** doesn't stink though.

Once again bganon I agree with everything you write. And while I also find myself agreeing with Peggy more often than not, you're right on target with your premises of ethnicity and constructed identities. For myself, I've never really understood the fascination with the recent label of "Bosniak", which seems to be a political identity less than 10 years old. I always thought Muslims in Sandzak as simply "Muslim Serbs", and I know a good number of "Muslim Serbs" in both Novi Pazar and Belgrade.

Lenard, nice to know you're never one to disappoint with your incomprehensible rants as well. I just scanned through it. Usual yelling at traffic nonsense that bears no coherent thought. Keep up the good fight. Maybe with the Power of Christ you'll one day reach that pot of gold.

B92 wouldn't be the same without you guys :)

Most Bosniaks certainly did for most of Tito's Yugoslavia, and would do again, I am sure, if real reconciliation would take place.

Unfortunately, there's a stiff competition in national denial in this region...

If the average Croat would be more willing to acknowledge the massmurding and unspoken cruelty that prominent members of their nation (including clergy) carried out in their name against their Serb neighbours during WWII, it would probably be conducive for more average Serbs to acknowledge the disproportionate crimes carried out in their name in BiH.


I sincerely believe the Bosnain Muslims feel they have much more in common with Serbs and would actually welcome a significant rapprochement.
When are the muslims and the Crooats going to admit that they made mistakes too and that serbs have suffered also. It would make everything so much easier. I guess their s*** doesn't stink though.
(Wimby, 6 July 2011 16:10)

A lot of horse manure Serbian President Boris Tadić is spreading it thick. A lot of double talk with huge heapings of subterfuge do people learn. Isa 59:4 No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil. Isa 59:6 Their deeds are evil deeds, and acts of violence are in their hands. Isa 59:7 Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways. Isa 59:8 The way of peace they do not know; there is no justice in their paths. They have turned them into crooked roads; no one who walks in them will know peace. Isa 59:14 So justice is driven back, and righteousness stands at a distance; truth has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter. Isa 59:15 Truth is nowhere to be found, and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey. The LORD looked and was displeased that there was no justice.

Tadic is a Political Clown(Budala).

Arn.Sweden.

Bgannon - I thought Peggy just misunderstood your point, but your return fire seems to underline her criticism.
So let's get this straight - in your world view, there is no such thing as a minority?? If you are a citizen of a certain country that's all that counts? That is definetly wrong.
Should we all have once been refered to as "Orthodox Ottomans" or "Orthodox Austrians"? Hillarious. When the Nazis occupied the Balkans did we all suddenly become "Germans"? Please, let's get real.
States come and go, but national feeling is something deeper than that. It's real and denying it (even brotherhood and unity style) is not the way to go (look at what happened to us all).
Even in the SFRJ only a few percent of people declared themselves as "Yugoslavs" - what exactly were the rest? Traitors?
You get my point right?
Agree that religion and ethnicity are not tied, but to claim ethnicity and citizenship are is even more flimsy.
If a Sandzak slavic muslim wants to call themselves a "Serbian Muslim" or a "Bozniak" or a "Ninja Turtle" - so be it, it's their right. They are still entitled to a Serbian passport regardless as that is a seperate matter.
If someone asks me "what are you?" I reply "Krajina Serb" not a "Croat" - that will never change, let me assure you.

A-Cganon (troll with mulitple monickers) - apparantly Mr Troll in your reality Milosevic was good for Serbia and Serbs?

What an ignorant fool you are!

Get rid of Milosevic again? Hell yes. My only regret is that the treacherous, thieving moron wasn't voted out sooner.

Now tell me a story about how patriotic Milosevic was - yeah you won't. Your philosophy consists of criticism with no clue what to do concerning any of the problems faced in the world today.

Clueless and too cowardly to put forward your own opinons and a troll to boot. Your parents must have raised you well.

Peggy so you don't agree with me that Bosniaks / Slav Muslums in Serbia should consider Serbia their country and not Bosnia?

I'm baffled, next you will be telling me that Sandzak has to right to seccede to Bosnia
===================================

I will never tell you or anyone else that Sandzak should secede from Serbia or any other part of Serbia to secede. Please don't try to twist what I was saying.

I am simply saying that just because an Orthodox Slav lives in Croatia it doesn't make him Croatian but a Serb.
Yes, he doesn't have a Serbian citizenship and cannot say he is from Serbia but nevertheless he is still a Serb just like me who was born in Sarajevo. When asked I always say Serbian and never Bosnian because to say you are Bosnian (or Bosniak like they say now) you imply you are Muslim.

I don't think too many people who are Orthodox or Catholic Slavs born there would say they are anything but Serbs or Croats.

Now as far as someone changing religion from Orthodox Slav to Catholic because they have married one I don't believe that they can call themselves Serbs any longer because our identity IS connected to our religion. We are not like the Americans or Australians who are only connected to a citizenship by being born there. Just ask any Croat also to explain it to you.

Suggesting that her non-Otpor opponents are cheating with the vote in one form or another wouldn´t help "Bganon´s" case very much i´m afraid, even if this site is VERY Otpor-friendly (NB! joke, haha)...

I havn´t seen anyone else here, so furiously obsest with getting thumb´s up for every silly comment. Maybe she lock herself up in her room and stay there for the rest of the day if you turn her down, so please, im full of empathy and want everybody to feel fine, give her "my" thumbs up but don´t encourage "Otporism" or any ísm with an F in the front too much, we have seen enough of that.

I am not surprise thet Serbian president he is on visit to Bosnja&Croatia every so often,??
Peapel don't you understand they you all are same,,, language same tradition exept religion, that's what saperait you,,,
who cares of the dead peapel, even today as is stand BIsnia is on brink of greater Serbia,wich is good for Serbian peaple,

bganon,
Milosevic was indeed awful, an extremely corrupt individual who lost Krajina and Kosovo, indeed he had to go. What you otporists implemented after he went was barely better, the only difference in that the DS dont even bother to try and cover up the fact that they are sellouts. One evil was replaced by another.

Peggy,

before you go all-out hysterical about the both rational and common-sensical points raised by bganon, look up the difference between ethnicity (commonality in DNA) and nationality (commonality in identity).

bganon is simply pointing to the obivous that Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs in BiH are generally all ethnic Slavs (commonality in DNA), divided into different nationalities (as institutionalised imagined communities) with different sets of shared core components for identity (historical narrative, religion, customs etc). So, while a Bosnian Serb from Banja Luka may feel more of a national affinity for a Russian Orthodox from Tikhvin, he would find closer ethnic brothers among the Bosniaks in Tuzla in terms of shared DNA. In BiH, to paraphrase Churchill, it is really about one people divided by the same language...

If you like, you can compare this with the Nordic countries, where the Scandinavian nations (shared ethnic background, but different national identities evolved over centuries) would be the equivalents of the Slavs, with the Finns as the Albanians (different ethnic and linguistic group).

"However, I am still a little puzzled how any Bosnian official can claim that Muslums in Serbia (many referring to themselves as Bosniaks today) are somehow ethnic Bosnians, in the same way as Bosnian Serbs are ethnic Serbs."
===…==

Are you for real? How can you possibly ask that question?
So what do you call Orthodox people in Bosnia or Croatia?

I was born in Sarajevo and I consider myself Serbian. Are you telling me that I don't know who and what I am and you are going to teach me?

Bgannon, you are sounding more ridiculous every day.
(Peggy, 6 July 2011 14:49)

bganon is simply pointing to the obivous that Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs in BiH are generally all ethnic Slavs (commonality in DNA), Wrong in Bosnia Croatians have 73% DNA R1A http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Graphics/Haplogroup_I.png&imgrefurl=http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Lyon/LyonDNA-results-I1.html&usg=__9InthBiwQ5DzaEgepkHvoEaf_-w=&h=600&w=776&sz=968&hl=en&start=18&zoom=1&tbnid=SV0b-66EGd_k_M:&tbnh=167&tbnw=216&ei=GaEUTtzjFKTliAL51qXeDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dr1a%2Bhaplogroup%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D520%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=837&vpy=216&dur=63&hovh=197&hovw=255&tx=118&ty=148&page=2&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:18&biw=1280&bih=520 the only ones that have those high proportions are the Norwegian ,Swedes ,Danes yes the Serbs have the Slavic high DNA with a mixture of Thracian ,Dacian ,Albanian. Genetics & Anthropology

Anthropologically, the craniometrical measurements made on the Croat population show Croats from Croatia are predominantly dolichocephalic, suggesting that they are more prone to dolichocephalic sub-racial types such as Nordic and Mediterranean than brachycephalic ones like Alpine and Dinaric.[36]

Croats from the northern regions generally have blonde-brown hair, and lighter eye colours, similar to the pigmentation of surrounding peoples such as Slovenians, Bosnians and Austrians. Croats from Dalmatia and Herzegovina generally have slightly darker hair, and higher incidence of brown eyes, although lighter hair and eyes are also common.

Genetically, on the Y chromosome line, a majority (>85%) of Croats belong to one of the three major European Y-DNA haplogroups - Haplogroup I (45%), Haplogroup R1a (27%) and Haplogroup R1b (13%).[37]

Later neolithic lineages which originated in the Middle East and brought agriculture to Europe, are present in surprisingly low numbers. The haplogroups J, E and T constitute together about 13% - significantly lower than other populations in the region.[37] The dominant presence of haplogroup I is rather interesting. This group exists only in Europe and is fairly widespread, but in relatively small percentages. Its frequency in the western Balkans is very high and the only population that has similar levels of the I group are the Scandinavians.[38] Haplogroup I among Croatians is divided in two major subdivisions[37] - I2a1 (33%), typical for the populations of eastern Adriatic and the Balkans, and I1 (9%), typical for north-western Europeans. Haplogroup I is believed to have weathered the last glacial maximum in the western Balkans, migrating north as the ice sheets retreated.

There are a number of relevant conclusions that can be drawn from the genetic data.

First of all it gives strong support to the theory that the region of modern day Croatia served as a refuge for northern populations during the last glacial maximum (LGM). The eastern Adriatic coast was much further south. The northern and western parts of that sea were steppes and plains, while the modern Croatian islands (rich in Paleolithic archeological sites) were hills and mountains. After the LGM, the offspring of these survivors (haplogroup I) repopulated much of central-eastern and southeastern Europe. Those who remained in the Balkans were the direct male-line ancestors of about 45% of modern day Croats in Croatia and 73% Croats in Herzegovina.[37]

It can be said that the Croats are "the most European people", as no other people have such a high share of this major (and probably the only) Paleolithic European haplogroup.

The second conclusion that can be drawn is that the theory of an Iranian origin[clarification needed]. Nonetheless Modern-day Iranians have a significantly different haplogroup distribution, although Iranic communities have lived in eastern Europe for centuries. The low frequency of Anatolian haplogroups suggests that agriculture spread into the region of Croatia primarily by way of cultural contact.[39]

And the third conclusion from the genetic evidence points to the fact Croats are genetically heterogeneous, pointing to a high degree of mixing of newly arrived medieval migrant tribes (such as Slavs) with the indigenous populations that were already present in the region of modern day Croatia.[40] Hence, most modern day Croats are directly descended from the original European population of the region who have lived in the territory by other names, such as Illyrians, and their forebears. These original inhabitants also served an important role in re-populating Europe after the last ice age

I wonder what roberto has to say about this:

I have nothing against "Bosnians",they are Serbs who in the Middle Ages under the Turks took Islam for 15% lower taxes,many Muslim collegueas of mine even know what saint their family tree was worshipping and making "Slava" to not too long ago!

But side by side please,with everyone having their historical territories inside Bosnia where they can feel free and not be in fear of being overwhelmed!

Look what Muslim Albanians are doing in Kosovo to Christians!

Bganon - I still think you are confused on this topic.
Let me put it this way - if you suddenly moved to Japan and adopted Japanese citizenship - would you still feel Serbian or would you, with the stroke of a pen, now "feel" Japanese? The passport says Japan - by your logic you are Japanese, so it's goodbye cevape and rakija and hello sushi and sake... or is that just being a bit too simplistic?
It is completely normal (and that includes Western countries) to be a citizen of this or that country, but "feel" Serbian (or whatever).
Now, do I feel Serbia to be "my country" - sure, why not, plenty of family there. If one day Serbia included Knin, I'd be happy about it. If one day Serbia dissapeared altogther for some reason, not so happy - but the main thing is - I am "Serbian" - no matter what the momentary geopolitical map says.
PS: Prior to 2006 were you Serbian or a Serbian-Montenegrin? :) Ok, enough with the examples..

Commentator I asked you about Serbia being your country because I have some close friends from Krajina who live in Belgrade and they don't feel that Serbia is their country. In fact in some moments they rather resent Serbia, and from their perspective I don't blame them.

They were happy living in Croatia, as Krajinan Serbs and they don't live here by choice. On top of that, some of them feel resented by Serbian Serbs, or simply don't like the way of life here.

Of course they don't feel Croatian, but they don't feel Serbian either. They have Serbian citizenship now, but they feel stateless in some way.

If I moved to Japan and took out Japanese nationality then I would be able to call myself a citizen of Japan. That wouldn't make me feel Japanese though, unless I was obsessed with Japan to begin with perhaps and loved the culture. But its a different example to compare say feeling Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian with feeling Serbian or Japanese. We all know there is precious little difference in the culture / values of Serbs, Croats and Bosnians.

Well I don't think that Serbia will ever include Knin, at some point its possible that the area will have real autonomy. Let me ask you this then if Krajina was given country status would you still consider yourself Serbian? (I don't mean Serb) Isn't feeling Serbian is only a substitute for how you really feel?

Prior to 2006 I was Serbian, of course. But prior to that I was Jugoslav, that is, a believer in the equality of all peoples in the former Jugoslavija. That is without the red philosophy and without tolerance for nationalism that tore the entire country to pieces.

Anon you know my trolish friend it would be much appreciated if you could stick to one monicker when mounting personal attacks upon me. I know you can't help the multiple votes thing. But please continue discrediting yourself. People aren't stupid, they can see they can see when one person is making different posts, even when they make deliberate mistakes in language to muddy the waters.
Regular visitors can see when a strange number of votes are made. It doesn't take a detective to work out that wtf, Go East, all those anons in this thread are the same person.

Like I said, you are nothing more than an underhand coward.

It is a quite futile quest to argue with such people (A-Zganon). Spoken like a true loser my trolish friend. I knew you didn't have the guts to back up your suggestion that Milosevic was good for Serbia.

Good luck with the multiple voting thing, perhaps it will change peoples minds!

SCP you are confusing two things in your statement. The battle was to get rid of that scumbag Milosevic, what came after was upto the Serbian people, all of us. Yes we have failed but I do not accept that the evil we are currently experiencing was worse that what we had under Milosevic.

Those who forced out Milosevic are not responsible for what we have today, that is the choice of the Serbian people.

Commentator I do not claim that ethnicity and citizenship are tied. One can be a member of any ethnic group on the planet and be a citizen of a completely different country where that ethnicity is not represented at all.

But ok, it is the right of anybody to call themselves what they want. However, in life there are opinions, versions of this and that. At the same time there is truth. I can tell people I am martian, but in fact I am Serbian. It says so on my passport and its the way I feel, even though I have other blood.

I think its a bit much for you to talk about traitors for saying they are something else. You know by now that this is the talk of some other scoundrel and not my opinion.

OK so lets get really honest here you mentioned national feeling. Do you consider Serbia your country? I don't believe you do. The (sad) fact is that you have been left without a state. If it were upto me that would never had happened in the first place. Its completely natural that the only thing you have is to identify with is your ethnic group. However, you know that you have about as much in common with Serbs of Serbia as you do with Croats (Serbophobia aside) in Croatia. The only real kinship / ethnic group is that of Krajinan. I get that, but if I'm wrong then correct me.

Peggy don't even try to move behind the US / Australian non native argument. There are hundreds of thousands of native British / French / Germans / Spanish / Italians who have changed religion. Now what makes Serbs and Croats special that changing one's religion changes their ethnic group? Why can western Europeans change religion and Serbs / Croat not do so? Its utterly backward thinking. Why do you insist in denying the rights of Serbs and Croats to change their religion and to maintain their identity?

And you want me to talk to some primitive Croat to persuade me how he was raised to believe that Croats cannot be anything other than Catholic and Serbs must be Orthodox?

In Serbia Bosnian Serbs will call themselves Bosnians or Serbs interchangebly. Serbians refer to Bosnian Serbs as Bosnians. I don't think there is any shame or loss in saying where one is from. Were I from Bosnia I would have no problem in saying this.

Bgannon, do you feel Serbian or Yugoslav?

You are so desperately trying to muddy the waters. If you take a man from Belgrade and put him in Nis he would feel out of place. Now that's just a minor example. Anyone moving from their area would feel like they needed to adjust and fit in. I feel that Australia is my home and I would not feel comfortable anywhere else in the world but guess what, I feel that I am a Serb no matter where I feel my home is. Your home is where you grew up, went to school, made all your friends, got married and had children and grew old.

Now all this is geographical and not whether you feel like you are a Serb or not.
Do you and people of Serbia feel that only you have exclusive rights on being Serbs and the rest of us should feel Bosnian, Croatian, Slovenian etc?
This sort of arrogance will only bring Serbia down. Being Serbian is a matter of being not geography.

Once upon a time we had Yugoslavia and most felt like they were Yugoslav. Now you are telling them they should feel whatever their new borders tell them.

Who do you think you are?

Bgannon, you are the one sticking to western values here and how chaning one's religion will still keep you English or whatever.

Most of the world will keep their race regardless of which country they now live in.
It's mainly the English people who are in agreement with you.

Ask any Idnian or Chinese and they will tell you that they are still Indian or Chinese even after so many generations and not what their passport tells them.
Many Chinese live in Malaysia, Vietnam etc. but they are still Chinese by race. Same with Indians. I personally know Indians from South Africa. They are fourth generation Indians there but guess what, they are still Indian.

Serbian religion is tightly connected to Serbian race. THIS IS A FACT. Get over it.

Neither "country" is getting in the EU as it dissolves before our eyes. No serious person doubts the EU is already finished. Dividing up the American creation known temporarily as Bosnia-Hercoz or whatever is inevitable. Get over it. It is rather comical that as Tadic blubbers about unity, the Scots vote for independence, the Catalans vote for independence....

Peggy there is nothing factual about your claim that somebody who converts to another religion loses their ethnic / cultural identity. That is utterly ridiculous.

As for English people agreeing with me, I don't have a clue how on earth you can know that. There are people from every country on earth who have converted to another religion and it is insulting to suggest that they lose their ethnicity changes as a result of such a change. Perhaps some of those people feel insulted by your position?

The alternative is that you only believe that Serbs, Croats etc, out of the whole planet lose their ethnicity from a change in religion. What makes us so special??? Or is it a select few countries, but others not... Clearly either it applies to all, or not at all.

Its clear that you NEED for religion to be tightly connected to race. Why is only a question you can answer.

Peggy as I've said to you before there is a difference between being a Serb and being Serbian. Yes I completely accept that you are a Serb and that this is fixed. However, factually or legally you are not Serbian unless you are at least tied to Serbia in some way, or legally / factually have a Serbian passport.

No, Serbians certainly don't have the right to exclude other Serbs from calling themselves Serbs. However, Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia living in Serbia in the main feel that Serbia is not their country.

Its all a superfluous argument for me really, it doesn't matter if you accept the reality or not. As far as I can see you almost have a tribal view of the Serb(ian) 'body', which is sadly outdated.

Somebody with a strong sense of personal / individual identity won't be too concerned about lables of this kind. In the end, as I said before, one is free to call oneself what one wants.

'Croats are catholicized Serbs...'

I agree with you, Dragan, and I would add that Serbs are orthodox Croats, just as Bosniaks are islamicised Serbs and Croats, and Montenegrins are Serbs who have forgotten the fact.

They are all Yugoslavs, ethnically and linguistically the same and only divided because of the geopolitical interests of outside powers who care nothing for the peoples of the Balkans beyond how far they can use them.

That is why, however impossible it may seem to anyone at the moment, a new, non-aligned Yugoslavia, with its administrative capital in Sarajevo, is the only long term way out of this mess and back into genuine stability.

@(bganon and others.

Because of bad Serbian politics and anti serb politics from foreigners we are where we are today.
Listen, croats dont talk about it but the 1857 Census of Austria show a 10% Italian and 88,5% SERBIAN population in Dalmatia!!

But...
At the beginning of the 20th C Zagreb made some treaties that all Catholics in Croatia are CROATS Including: Germans,Hungarians, Slovens And Serbians.
and Serbs ACCEPTED that.
Furthermore, Muslims had no identity, they where mostly Serbian and some croats, but you can be a Croat if you are CATHOLIC and you can be a Serb if you are ORTHODOX so Muslims are not, that was a mistake...

Then in 1915 if serbia accepted the London treaty , then they could have made friends of Germany and Italy, guess what they made enemies of them, a second chance in WW2 Prince Paul signed the pact with Germany, (English sponsored protests in Belgrade mad a end to it, the consequences where 700000 killed Serbians by the Croat nazis.
again yugoslav politics made Montenegrins, Yugoslavs and Muslims out of serbs.

And about DNA, in eastern Germany live Serbs (SORBS), they have different DNA then Balkan Serbs, but their name is the same!!

In the past the name Serb/Slav meant the same
so we are all one people, but some of them dont want to be Serbian but hey that's their problem,

I wonder why...

Seriously, are you saying that all Slavs are/were actually Serb?


In the past the name Serb/Slav meant the same
so we are all one people, but some of them dont want to be Serbian but hey that's their problem,
(mick, 7 July 2011 12:34)

SRB, BiH, MNE, and HR are four countries divided by religions. If Christianity (in all of is putrid forms), Islam, and to a lesser extent, Judaism hadn't spread to this region, everyone would have been way better off...

Bgannon, try this experiment. Ask the Croats, Albanians, Hungarians and all the other ethnic minorities in Serbia if they feel they are Serbian and all will be clear to you.

You will see that others feel the same way as I do. Ask any Chinese in any part of the world beside China if they are anything else but Chinese or Indian like I stated previously.

You can project your wishes all you like but they won't be come fact.
Why do you want make further divisions among Serbs than aleady exist?
Isn't Montenegro enough for you? Do you want to force others not to feel connection to Serbia as well?

I will tell you something you are obviously too ignorant to know. All Serbs here in Australia regardless where they come from, including my daughters who were born here cheer for Djokovic. My girls have worn Serbian caps when we were at Australian Open. Why do you think that is? Is it because they feel no connection to Serbia? None of us have Serbian citizenships or passports and yet we all dressed in Serbian colours and cheered for our tennis players. Yes, OUR tennis players not just yours.

Don't you dare tell me not to feel connected to Serbia. You want all our support from diaspora and money sent but we are not allowed to feel Serbian.

It's people like you who are dividing us.

Bgannon, here is Cvetkovic's statement:


The Serbs living abroad are Serbia's ambassadors, and the government wishes to establish an even better economic, cultural and political cooperation with them, the prime minister stated.
==============================

Would you mind telling him to clarity this because according to you unless you are tied to Serbia via a passport or birth you have no business associating yourself with that country.

The rest of us Serbs are not Serbian. I think he needs to know that.

A lot of horse manure Serbian President Boris Tadić is spreading it thick. A lot of double talk with huge heapings of subterfuge do people learn. Isa 59:4 No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil. Isa 59:6 Their deeds are evil deeds, and acts of violence are in their hands. Isa 59:7 Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways. Isa 59:8 The way of peace they do not know; there is no justice in their paths. They have turned them into crooked roads; no one who walks in them will know peace. Isa 59:14 So justice is driven back, and righteousness stands at a distance; truth has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter. Isa 59:15 Truth is nowhere to be found, and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey. The LORD looked and was displeased that there was no justice.

I'm glad that Tadic is continuing improving regional relations, it is one of the few spheres where has enjoyed success.

However, I am still a little puzzled how any Bosnian official can claim that Muslums in Serbia (many referring to themselves as Bosniaks today) are somehow ethnic Bosnians, in the same way as Bosnian Serbs are ethnic Serbs.

It stinks a little of ethnic politics.

I suppose this is the point at which Lenard will give me a lecture about Serbian guilt / responsiblity for this and that (even though Bosnia has decorated Tadic with a medal).

Sometimes I wonder if we managed to resolve our issues between ourselves what our embittered complainers would do with their lives. I suppose they would complain about something else, or they may finally realise that they themselves have a problem that needs to be dealt with...

bganon is simply pointing to the obivous that Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs in BiH are generally all ethnic Slavs (commonality in DNA), Wrong in Bosnia Croatians have 73% DNA R1A http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Graphics/Haplogroup_I.png&imgrefurl=http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Lyon/LyonDNA-results-I1.html&usg=__9InthBiwQ5DzaEgepkHvoEaf_-w=&h=600&w=776&sz=968&hl=en&start=18&zoom=1&tbnid=SV0b-66EGd_k_M:&tbnh=167&tbnw=216&ei=GaEUTtzjFKTliAL51qXeDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dr1a%2Bhaplogroup%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D520%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=837&vpy=216&dur=63&hovh=197&hovw=255&tx=118&ty=148&page=2&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:18&biw=1280&bih=520 the only ones that have those high proportions are the Norwegian ,Swedes ,Danes yes the Serbs have the Slavic high DNA with a mixture of Thracian ,Dacian ,Albanian. Genetics & Anthropology

Anthropologically, the craniometrical measurements made on the Croat population show Croats from Croatia are predominantly dolichocephalic, suggesting that they are more prone to dolichocephalic sub-racial types such as Nordic and Mediterranean than brachycephalic ones like Alpine and Dinaric.[36]

Croats from the northern regions generally have blonde-brown hair, and lighter eye colours, similar to the pigmentation of surrounding peoples such as Slovenians, Bosnians and Austrians. Croats from Dalmatia and Herzegovina generally have slightly darker hair, and higher incidence of brown eyes, although lighter hair and eyes are also common.

Genetically, on the Y chromosome line, a majority (>85%) of Croats belong to one of the three major European Y-DNA haplogroups - Haplogroup I (45%), Haplogroup R1a (27%) and Haplogroup R1b (13%).[37]

Later neolithic lineages which originated in the Middle East and brought agriculture to Europe, are present in surprisingly low numbers. The haplogroups J, E and T constitute together about 13% - significantly lower than other populations in the region.[37] The dominant presence of haplogroup I is rather interesting. This group exists only in Europe and is fairly widespread, but in relatively small percentages. Its frequency in the western Balkans is very high and the only population that has similar levels of the I group are the Scandinavians.[38] Haplogroup I among Croatians is divided in two major subdivisions[37] - I2a1 (33%), typical for the populations of eastern Adriatic and the Balkans, and I1 (9%), typical for north-western Europeans. Haplogroup I is believed to have weathered the last glacial maximum in the western Balkans, migrating north as the ice sheets retreated.

There are a number of relevant conclusions that can be drawn from the genetic data.

First of all it gives strong support to the theory that the region of modern day Croatia served as a refuge for northern populations during the last glacial maximum (LGM). The eastern Adriatic coast was much further south. The northern and western parts of that sea were steppes and plains, while the modern Croatian islands (rich in Paleolithic archeological sites) were hills and mountains. After the LGM, the offspring of these survivors (haplogroup I) repopulated much of central-eastern and southeastern Europe. Those who remained in the Balkans were the direct male-line ancestors of about 45% of modern day Croats in Croatia and 73% Croats in Herzegovina.[37]

It can be said that the Croats are "the most European people", as no other people have such a high share of this major (and probably the only) Paleolithic European haplogroup.

The second conclusion that can be drawn is that the theory of an Iranian origin[clarification needed]. Nonetheless Modern-day Iranians have a significantly different haplogroup distribution, although Iranic communities have lived in eastern Europe for centuries. The low frequency of Anatolian haplogroups suggests that agriculture spread into the region of Croatia primarily by way of cultural contact.[39]

And the third conclusion from the genetic evidence points to the fact Croats are genetically heterogeneous, pointing to a high degree of mixing of newly arrived medieval migrant tribes (such as Slavs) with the indigenous populations that were already present in the region of modern day Croatia.[40] Hence, most modern day Croats are directly descended from the original European population of the region who have lived in the territory by other names, such as Illyrians, and their forebears. These original inhabitants also served an important role in re-populating Europe after the last ice age

A-Cganon (troll with mulitple monickers) - apparantly Mr Troll in your reality Milosevic was good for Serbia and Serbs?

What an ignorant fool you are!

Get rid of Milosevic again? Hell yes. My only regret is that the treacherous, thieving moron wasn't voted out sooner.

Now tell me a story about how patriotic Milosevic was - yeah you won't. Your philosophy consists of criticism with no clue what to do concerning any of the problems faced in the world today.

Clueless and too cowardly to put forward your own opinons and a troll to boot. Your parents must have raised you well.

Peggy so you don't agree with me that Bosniaks / Slav Muslums in Serbia should consider Serbia their country and not Bosnia?

I'm baffled, next you will be telling me that Sandzak has to right to seccede to Bosnia.

Since you made such a comment about religion being fixed to ethnic group let me ask you something, I have a female Serbian friend who married an Irishman who is catholic from a traditional family. They asked that she convert to cathlocism which she did.

Is she now a Croat?

Or how about a (fictional, but I'm sure it must have happened) Croatian female marrying a Russian who asks her for conversion. Is she now a Serb?

How is it then, that in western societies religion is a personal choice and according to you a Serb must be Orthodox and a Croat Catholic?

Those are some very backward ideas you have there Peggy. An Australian can choose one's religion but a Serb / Croat cannot, or if they do they change ethnic group automatically???

I can tell you only factually what you are Peggy. If you have Serbian citizenship then you are Serbian, if you are a Serb ethnically then you are Serb. If you have Bosnian nationality for example you are Bosnian (Serb).

Tadic is a Political Clown(Budala).

Arn.Sweden.

It is a quite futile quest to argue with such people (A-Zganon). Spoken like a true loser my trolish friend. I knew you didn't have the guts to back up your suggestion that Milosevic was good for Serbia.

Good luck with the multiple voting thing, perhaps it will change peoples minds!

SCP you are confusing two things in your statement. The battle was to get rid of that scumbag Milosevic, what came after was upto the Serbian people, all of us. Yes we have failed but I do not accept that the evil we are currently experiencing was worse that what we had under Milosevic.

Those who forced out Milosevic are not responsible for what we have today, that is the choice of the Serbian people.

Commentator I do not claim that ethnicity and citizenship are tied. One can be a member of any ethnic group on the planet and be a citizen of a completely different country where that ethnicity is not represented at all.

But ok, it is the right of anybody to call themselves what they want. However, in life there are opinions, versions of this and that. At the same time there is truth. I can tell people I am martian, but in fact I am Serbian. It says so on my passport and its the way I feel, even though I have other blood.

I think its a bit much for you to talk about traitors for saying they are something else. You know by now that this is the talk of some other scoundrel and not my opinion.

OK so lets get really honest here you mentioned national feeling. Do you consider Serbia your country? I don't believe you do. The (sad) fact is that you have been left without a state. If it were upto me that would never had happened in the first place. Its completely natural that the only thing you have is to identify with is your ethnic group. However, you know that you have about as much in common with Serbs of Serbia as you do with Croats (Serbophobia aside) in Croatia. The only real kinship / ethnic group is that of Krajinan. I get that, but if I'm wrong then correct me.

Peggy don't even try to move behind the US / Australian non native argument. There are hundreds of thousands of native British / French / Germans / Spanish / Italians who have changed religion. Now what makes Serbs and Croats special that changing one's religion changes their ethnic group? Why can western Europeans change religion and Serbs / Croat not do so? Its utterly backward thinking. Why do you insist in denying the rights of Serbs and Croats to change their religion and to maintain their identity?

And you want me to talk to some primitive Croat to persuade me how he was raised to believe that Croats cannot be anything other than Catholic and Serbs must be Orthodox?

In Serbia Bosnian Serbs will call themselves Bosnians or Serbs interchangebly. Serbians refer to Bosnian Serbs as Bosnians. I don't think there is any shame or loss in saying where one is from. Were I from Bosnia I would have no problem in saying this.

"However, I am still a little puzzled how any Bosnian official can claim that Muslums in Serbia (many referring to themselves as Bosniaks today) are somehow ethnic Bosnians, in the same way as Bosnian Serbs are ethnic Serbs."
================================

Are you for real? How can you possibly ask that question?
So what do you call Orthodox people in Bosnia or Croatia?

I was born in Sarajevo and I consider myself Serbian. Are you telling me that I don't know who and what I am and you are going to teach me?

Bgannon, you are sounding more ridiculous every day.

Peggy,

before you go all-out hysterical about the both rational and common-sensical points raised by bganon, look up the difference between ethnicity (commonality in DNA) and nationality (commonality in identity).

bganon is simply pointing to the obivous that Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs in BiH are generally all ethnic Slavs (commonality in DNA), divided into different nationalities (as institutionalised imagined communities) with different sets of shared core components for identity (historical narrative, religion, customs etc). So, while a Bosnian Serb from Banja Luka may feel more of a national affinity for a Russian Orthodox from Tikhvin, he would find closer ethnic brothers among the Bosniaks in Tuzla in terms of shared DNA. In BiH, to paraphrase Churchill, it is really about one people divided by the same language...

If you like, you can compare this with the Nordic countries, where the Scandinavian nations (shared ethnic background, but different national identities evolved over centuries) would be the equivalents of the Slavs, with the Finns as the Albanians (different ethnic and linguistic group).

"However, I am still a little puzzled how any Bosnian official can claim that Muslums in Serbia (many referring to themselves as Bosniaks today) are somehow ethnic Bosnians, in the same way as Bosnian Serbs are ethnic Serbs."
===…==

Are you for real? How can you possibly ask that question?
So what do you call Orthodox people in Bosnia or Croatia?

I was born in Sarajevo and I consider myself Serbian. Are you telling me that I don't know who and what I am and you are going to teach me?

Bgannon, you are sounding more ridiculous every day.
(Peggy, 6 July 2011 14:49)

"Bgannon, you are sounding more ridiculous every day."

Agree but not surprised. How could possibly a hardcore Otpor™ fanatic sound otherwise? She, like the rest of the western remote-controlled Otpor™-zombies must convince themselves everyday, they did the right thing. Reality wouldn´t occur to them even if they where hit by a train (which they where but apparently never recovered).

I am not surprise thet Serbian president he is on visit to Bosnja&Croatia every so often,??
Peapel don't you understand they you all are same,,, language same tradition exept religion, that's what saperait you,,,
who cares of the dead peapel, even today as is stand BIsnia is on brink of greater Serbia,wich is good for Serbian peaple,

Commentator I asked you about Serbia being your country because I have some close friends from Krajina who live in Belgrade and they don't feel that Serbia is their country. In fact in some moments they rather resent Serbia, and from their perspective I don't blame them.

They were happy living in Croatia, as Krajinan Serbs and they don't live here by choice. On top of that, some of them feel resented by Serbian Serbs, or simply don't like the way of life here.

Of course they don't feel Croatian, but they don't feel Serbian either. They have Serbian citizenship now, but they feel stateless in some way.

If I moved to Japan and took out Japanese nationality then I would be able to call myself a citizen of Japan. That wouldn't make me feel Japanese though, unless I was obsessed with Japan to begin with perhaps and loved the culture. But its a different example to compare say feeling Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian with feeling Serbian or Japanese. We all know there is precious little difference in the culture / values of Serbs, Croats and Bosnians.

Well I don't think that Serbia will ever include Knin, at some point its possible that the area will have real autonomy. Let me ask you this then if Krajina was given country status would you still consider yourself Serbian? (I don't mean Serb) Isn't feeling Serbian is only a substitute for how you really feel?

Prior to 2006 I was Serbian, of course. But prior to that I was Jugoslav, that is, a believer in the equality of all peoples in the former Jugoslavija. That is without the red philosophy and without tolerance for nationalism that tore the entire country to pieces.

Anon you know my trolish friend it would be much appreciated if you could stick to one monicker when mounting personal attacks upon me. I know you can't help the multiple votes thing. But please continue discrediting yourself. People aren't stupid, they can see they can see when one person is making different posts, even when they make deliberate mistakes in language to muddy the waters.
Regular visitors can see when a strange number of votes are made. It doesn't take a detective to work out that wtf, Go East, all those anons in this thread are the same person.

Like I said, you are nothing more than an underhand coward.

Bakir's remarks are telling and it's unheard of since 1990 for a Muslim leader to stress commonalities with Serbia. Tadic is hated by Muslim chauvinists in BiH and frankly so is Bakir. The fact is that BiH & Serbia have too much in common to be seperate states.

Bosnia as a sovereign state is somewhat of a joke, one only needs to travel from Croatia then into Bosnia and onto Serbia to see that these countries are the same. What kind of a country exists under the dictatorship of a UN high representative, and a rotating Bosnian presidency? The fact that Serbs, Muslims and Croats pretty much all vote for parties which represent their ethnic group is proof that Bosnia is a country in which there is still bitterness. Republika Srpska should be a part of Serbia, it is what they want but the West will never allow it. Just as the Croats would love to annex Hercegovina and other Croat populated areas, and if the Muslims had it how they truly desire then Bosnia would be dominated by them, but of course that would be tragic. The only Muslim identity is the fact that they are Muslim, nothing else separates them from Serbs, yet they waged war for nothing, even under the Serbian monarchy before WWII the Muslims were treated well and this meant for less tension between them and Serbs. But then they went and tarnished it all in the 90s.

I am glad to see that bganon agrees with Dr. Vojislav Seselj. Seselj is right when he says that Croats are catholicized Serbs, and Bosnian muslims are converted muslim Serbs. Emir Kusturica is a fine example of a Serb who knows his roots. Way to go bganon, you are seeing the light girl!
Cheers!!

Once again bganon I agree with everything you write. And while I also find myself agreeing with Peggy more often than not, you're right on target with your premises of ethnicity and constructed identities. For myself, I've never really understood the fascination with the recent label of "Bosniak", which seems to be a political identity less than 10 years old. I always thought Muslims in Sandzak as simply "Muslim Serbs", and I know a good number of "Muslim Serbs" in both Novi Pazar and Belgrade.

Lenard, nice to know you're never one to disappoint with your incomprehensible rants as well. I just scanned through it. Usual yelling at traffic nonsense that bears no coherent thought. Keep up the good fight. Maybe with the Power of Christ you'll one day reach that pot of gold.

B92 wouldn't be the same without you guys :)

Most Bosniaks certainly did for most of Tito's Yugoslavia, and would do again, I am sure, if real reconciliation would take place.

Unfortunately, there's a stiff competition in national denial in this region...

If the average Croat would be more willing to acknowledge the massmurding and unspoken cruelty that prominent members of their nation (including clergy) carried out in their name against their Serb neighbours during WWII, it would probably be conducive for more average Serbs to acknowledge the disproportionate crimes carried out in their name in BiH.


I sincerely believe the Bosnain Muslims feel they have much more in common with Serbs and would actually welcome a significant rapprochement.
When are the muslims and the Crooats going to admit that they made mistakes too and that serbs have suffered also. It would make everything so much easier. I guess their s*** doesn't stink though.
(Wimby, 6 July 2011 16:10)

I sincerely believe the Bosnain Muslims feel they have much more in common with Serbs and would actually welcome a significant rapprochement.
When are the muslims and the Crooats going to admit that they made mistakes too and that serbs have suffered also. It would make everything so much easier. I guess their s*** doesn't stink though.

Bgannon - I thought Peggy just misunderstood your point, but your return fire seems to underline her criticism.
So let's get this straight - in your world view, there is no such thing as a minority?? If you are a citizen of a certain country that's all that counts? That is definetly wrong.
Should we all have once been refered to as "Orthodox Ottomans" or "Orthodox Austrians"? Hillarious. When the Nazis occupied the Balkans did we all suddenly become "Germans"? Please, let's get real.
States come and go, but national feeling is something deeper than that. It's real and denying it (even brotherhood and unity style) is not the way to go (look at what happened to us all).
Even in the SFRJ only a few percent of people declared themselves as "Yugoslavs" - what exactly were the rest? Traitors?
You get my point right?
Agree that religion and ethnicity are not tied, but to claim ethnicity and citizenship are is even more flimsy.
If a Sandzak slavic muslim wants to call themselves a "Serbian Muslim" or a "Bozniak" or a "Ninja Turtle" - so be it, it's their right. They are still entitled to a Serbian passport regardless as that is a seperate matter.
If someone asks me "what are you?" I reply "Krajina Serb" not a "Croat" - that will never change, let me assure you.

SRB, BiH, MNE, and HR are four countries divided by religions. If Christianity (in all of is putrid forms), Islam, and to a lesser extent, Judaism hadn't spread to this region, everyone would have been way better off...

I wonder why...

Seriously, are you saying that all Slavs are/were actually Serb?


In the past the name Serb/Slav meant the same
so we are all one people, but some of them dont want to be Serbian but hey that's their problem,
(mick, 7 July 2011 12:34)

Peggy there is nothing factual about your claim that somebody who converts to another religion loses their ethnic / cultural identity. That is utterly ridiculous.

As for English people agreeing with me, I don't have a clue how on earth you can know that. There are people from every country on earth who have converted to another religion and it is insulting to suggest that they lose their ethnicity changes as a result of such a change. Perhaps some of those people feel insulted by your position?

The alternative is that you only believe that Serbs, Croats etc, out of the whole planet lose their ethnicity from a change in religion. What makes us so special??? Or is it a select few countries, but others not... Clearly either it applies to all, or not at all.

Its clear that you NEED for religion to be tightly connected to race. Why is only a question you can answer.

Peggy as I've said to you before there is a difference between being a Serb and being Serbian. Yes I completely accept that you are a Serb and that this is fixed. However, factually or legally you are not Serbian unless you are at least tied to Serbia in some way, or legally / factually have a Serbian passport.

No, Serbians certainly don't have the right to exclude other Serbs from calling themselves Serbs. However, Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia living in Serbia in the main feel that Serbia is not their country.

Its all a superfluous argument for me really, it doesn't matter if you accept the reality or not. As far as I can see you almost have a tribal view of the Serb(ian) 'body', which is sadly outdated.

Somebody with a strong sense of personal / individual identity won't be too concerned about lables of this kind. In the end, as I said before, one is free to call oneself what one wants.

Peggy so you don't agree with me that Bosniaks / Slav Muslums in Serbia should consider Serbia their country and not Bosnia?

I'm baffled, next you will be telling me that Sandzak has to right to seccede to Bosnia
===================================

I will never tell you or anyone else that Sandzak should secede from Serbia or any other part of Serbia to secede. Please don't try to twist what I was saying.

I am simply saying that just because an Orthodox Slav lives in Croatia it doesn't make him Croatian but a Serb.
Yes, he doesn't have a Serbian citizenship and cannot say he is from Serbia but nevertheless he is still a Serb just like me who was born in Sarajevo. When asked I always say Serbian and never Bosnian because to say you are Bosnian (or Bosniak like they say now) you imply you are Muslim.

I don't think too many people who are Orthodox or Catholic Slavs born there would say they are anything but Serbs or Croats.

Now as far as someone changing religion from Orthodox Slav to Catholic because they have married one I don't believe that they can call themselves Serbs any longer because our identity IS connected to our religion. We are not like the Americans or Australians who are only connected to a citizenship by being born there. Just ask any Croat also to explain it to you.

Suggesting that her non-Otpor opponents are cheating with the vote in one form or another wouldn´t help "Bganon´s" case very much i´m afraid, even if this site is VERY Otpor-friendly (NB! joke, haha)...

I havn´t seen anyone else here, so furiously obsest with getting thumb´s up for every silly comment. Maybe she lock herself up in her room and stay there for the rest of the day if you turn her down, so please, im full of empathy and want everybody to feel fine, give her "my" thumbs up but don´t encourage "Otporism" or any ísm with an F in the front too much, we have seen enough of that.

Bgannon, do you feel Serbian or Yugoslav?

You are so desperately trying to muddy the waters. If you take a man from Belgrade and put him in Nis he would feel out of place. Now that's just a minor example. Anyone moving from their area would feel like they needed to adjust and fit in. I feel that Australia is my home and I would not feel comfortable anywhere else in the world but guess what, I feel that I am a Serb no matter where I feel my home is. Your home is where you grew up, went to school, made all your friends, got married and had children and grew old.

Now all this is geographical and not whether you feel like you are a Serb or not.
Do you and people of Serbia feel that only you have exclusive rights on being Serbs and the rest of us should feel Bosnian, Croatian, Slovenian etc?
This sort of arrogance will only bring Serbia down. Being Serbian is a matter of being not geography.

Once upon a time we had Yugoslavia and most felt like they were Yugoslav. Now you are telling them they should feel whatever their new borders tell them.

Who do you think you are?

Bgannon, you are the one sticking to western values here and how chaning one's religion will still keep you English or whatever.

Most of the world will keep their race regardless of which country they now live in.
It's mainly the English people who are in agreement with you.

Ask any Idnian or Chinese and they will tell you that they are still Indian or Chinese even after so many generations and not what their passport tells them.
Many Chinese live in Malaysia, Vietnam etc. but they are still Chinese by race. Same with Indians. I personally know Indians from South Africa. They are fourth generation Indians there but guess what, they are still Indian.

Serbian religion is tightly connected to Serbian race. THIS IS A FACT. Get over it.

Neither "country" is getting in the EU as it dissolves before our eyes. No serious person doubts the EU is already finished. Dividing up the American creation known temporarily as Bosnia-Hercoz or whatever is inevitable. Get over it. It is rather comical that as Tadic blubbers about unity, the Scots vote for independence, the Catalans vote for independence....

@(bganon and others.

Because of bad Serbian politics and anti serb politics from foreigners we are where we are today.
Listen, croats dont talk about it but the 1857 Census of Austria show a 10% Italian and 88,5% SERBIAN population in Dalmatia!!

But...
At the beginning of the 20th C Zagreb made some treaties that all Catholics in Croatia are CROATS Including: Germans,Hungarians, Slovens And Serbians.
and Serbs ACCEPTED that.
Furthermore, Muslims had no identity, they where mostly Serbian and some croats, but you can be a Croat if you are CATHOLIC and you can be a Serb if you are ORTHODOX so Muslims are not, that was a mistake...

Then in 1915 if serbia accepted the London treaty , then they could have made friends of Germany and Italy, guess what they made enemies of them, a second chance in WW2 Prince Paul signed the pact with Germany, (English sponsored protests in Belgrade mad a end to it, the consequences where 700000 killed Serbians by the Croat nazis.
again yugoslav politics made Montenegrins, Yugoslavs and Muslims out of serbs.

And about DNA, in eastern Germany live Serbs (SORBS), they have different DNA then Balkan Serbs, but their name is the same!!

In the past the name Serb/Slav meant the same
so we are all one people, but some of them dont want to be Serbian but hey that's their problem,

I wonder what roberto has to say about this:

I have nothing against "Bosnians",they are Serbs who in the Middle Ages under the Turks took Islam for 15% lower taxes,many Muslim collegueas of mine even know what saint their family tree was worshipping and making "Slava" to not too long ago!

But side by side please,with everyone having their historical territories inside Bosnia where they can feel free and not be in fear of being overwhelmed!

Look what Muslim Albanians are doing in Kosovo to Christians!

I don´t think Peggy misunderstood anything at all.

For all "Bganon" and other Otpor™ remote controlled people care, they may be Serbs by birth(hard to deny), but miraculously reborn Anglo-American "enlightened ones" (Herrenvolk) baptised by the "humanitarian bombs" (the holy hand-grenades of Antioch) which NATO mercifully unleashed to start the "birth pangs of "democrasy" in our dark corner of the world. They are the choosen ones to lead the uneducated and back-warded infidels to a prosperous NWO, or so they think. It is a quite futile quest to argue with such people but good luck anyway.....

Bganon - I still think you are confused on this topic.
Let me put it this way - if you suddenly moved to Japan and adopted Japanese citizenship - would you still feel Serbian or would you, with the stroke of a pen, now "feel" Japanese? The passport says Japan - by your logic you are Japanese, so it's goodbye cevape and rakija and hello sushi and sake... or is that just being a bit too simplistic?
It is completely normal (and that includes Western countries) to be a citizen of this or that country, but "feel" Serbian (or whatever).
Now, do I feel Serbia to be "my country" - sure, why not, plenty of family there. If one day Serbia included Knin, I'd be happy about it. If one day Serbia dissapeared altogther for some reason, not so happy - but the main thing is - I am "Serbian" - no matter what the momentary geopolitical map says.
PS: Prior to 2006 were you Serbian or a Serbian-Montenegrin? :) Ok, enough with the examples..

bganon,
Milosevic was indeed awful, an extremely corrupt individual who lost Krajina and Kosovo, indeed he had to go. What you otporists implemented after he went was barely better, the only difference in that the DS dont even bother to try and cover up the fact that they are sellouts. One evil was replaced by another.

'Croats are catholicized Serbs...'

I agree with you, Dragan, and I would add that Serbs are orthodox Croats, just as Bosniaks are islamicised Serbs and Croats, and Montenegrins are Serbs who have forgotten the fact.

They are all Yugoslavs, ethnically and linguistically the same and only divided because of the geopolitical interests of outside powers who care nothing for the peoples of the Balkans beyond how far they can use them.

That is why, however impossible it may seem to anyone at the moment, a new, non-aligned Yugoslavia, with its administrative capital in Sarajevo, is the only long term way out of this mess and back into genuine stability.

Bgannon, try this experiment. Ask the Croats, Albanians, Hungarians and all the other ethnic minorities in Serbia if they feel they are Serbian and all will be clear to you.

You will see that others feel the same way as I do. Ask any Chinese in any part of the world beside China if they are anything else but Chinese or Indian like I stated previously.

You can project your wishes all you like but they won't be come fact.
Why do you want make further divisions among Serbs than aleady exist?
Isn't Montenegro enough for you? Do you want to force others not to feel connection to Serbia as well?

I will tell you something you are obviously too ignorant to know. All Serbs here in Australia regardless where they come from, including my daughters who were born here cheer for Djokovic. My girls have worn Serbian caps when we were at Australian Open. Why do you think that is? Is it because they feel no connection to Serbia? None of us have Serbian citizenships or passports and yet we all dressed in Serbian colours and cheered for our tennis players. Yes, OUR tennis players not just yours.

Don't you dare tell me not to feel connected to Serbia. You want all our support from diaspora and money sent but we are not allowed to feel Serbian.

It's people like you who are dividing us.

Bgannon, here is Cvetkovic's statement:


The Serbs living abroad are Serbia's ambassadors, and the government wishes to establish an even better economic, cultural and political cooperation with them, the prime minister stated.
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Would you mind telling him to clarity this because according to you unless you are tied to Serbia via a passport or birth you have no business associating yourself with that country.

The rest of us Serbs are not Serbian. I think he needs to know that.