Tadić believes Holland will ratify SAA

You say that we are better off than all our neighbours, all the evidence points to the contrary. In which way is Serbia better off?
(bganon, 9 June 2011 15:37)
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Yes, and I base that on observation. I have travelled to all neighbouring countries (except Albania) and I cannot see that Serbia is any worse off. Mind you, that is after 10 years of economic sanctions and war. I was not very impressed with the countryside of Hungary or Bulgaria. How bleak can you get? Even the gypsies, in comparison, brightened up the Romanian countryside but when re-entering Serbia it is like life has finally returned. Actually, I was more impressed with Republika Srpska. Now that place seems to be doing better than Serbia.

Yes, we need loans for expansion, such as viable infrastructure projects but when it's used to finance an inefficient budget then the whole thing goes pear shaped. When our most valuable assets are stripped and we lose revenue to support that budget, we start getting into trouble. The western economic system see Serbia as prey and not a partner.

Tadic is one big fool. Instead of being brave and fixing the problems facing Serbia, he puts all of his eggs in one basket case called the EU. I am not surprised we are getting more and more protests.

This time i agree with Tadic, this was only a signal ..SAA ratification is i think a done deal because it doesnt mean nothing practical..but this is another signal.. [link] and this is a bloc of countries that probably in the future will stop any new WB entry...
(Luigi, 9 June 2011 10:13)
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I hope this is true Luigi. On thing many commentators on this site can agree on, be they Serbian, Albanian and others, is that Serbia doesn't belong in the EU. I'm glad there is much resistance there.

Bulgaria and Romania have so many restrictions on their "membership" that it isn't too different to what Serbia has, as a non-member. Essentially a free trade agreement and visa free travel.

I hope the Orthodox countries wake up and realise the EU is not for them.

Sure Tadic keep spinning

- many Serbians have awoken from this game of charades EU pretends to hold Serbia back Tadic does something just in time for presidential and parliament elections just so that the Tadic & the yellows hold onto power.

Beyond elections the result is no progress if not worse economic conditions for the vast majority while the yellow few scam ever more in EU company deals. Look no further than what has transpired with the FIAT deal - thousands of lost jobs rather than the promise/lies of thousands to be created, hundreds of millions of Euro's in debt held against Serbia for Loans that Fiat can spend who knows where and in the meantime all of what could have been a competitive of Fiats left a continued waste land nearly 4 years on. What happened to the 800 million Euro deal???

Bganon,
"On a micro level I don't understand the obsession with debt. Without the ability to take out a loan half the businesses running in the world would not exist. We are not all born into money, there has to be a way that individuals and countries can borrow in order to expand."

- eventually your debt far outweighs your capacity to develop due to interest payments taking more and more tax revenues and potentially leading to what is called bankruptcy - something that many EU countries are on the verge off which would lead to a domino effect knocking out much of the rest of the EU states. Think about it why there is such an obsession in the markets who are all betting on Greek defaults - currently it seems a sure bet! On the other hand one prominent country in the EU has continued too do well from this economic policy and would in a fabulous position with assets to purchase a many few Greek Islands at a handsome price when the time is ripe!

Zoran how much better off these countries are depends on what measurement you use.

We all know they have higher wages, but they also have a higher standard of living, better human development etc. The parameters used in these measurements includes health care, education, employment and many other factors.

Greece although highly indebted is invariably among the top 25 or so countries in the world. Debt is only one factor among many.

On a micro level I don't understand the obsession with debt. Without the ability to take out a loan half the businesses running in the world would not exist. We are not all born into money, there has to be a way that individuals and countries can borrow in order to expand.

You say that we are better off than all our neighbours, all the evidence points to the contrary. In which way is Serbia better off?

DD

Here's a list of key dates of Serbia's accession to the EU including thouse countries who have ratified the SAA (via wikipedia):

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Accession_of_Serbia_to_the_European_Union

2010-Jun-21: Spain ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2010-Jul-02: Malta ratifies Serbia's SAA.[72]

2010-Jul-16: Bulgaria ratifies Serbia's SAA.[73]

2010-Aug-19: Estonia ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2010-Sep-09: Slovakia ratifies Serbia's SAA.[74]

2010-Nov-16: Hungary ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2010-Nov-26: Cyprus ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2010-Dec-07: Slovenia ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-06: Italy ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-13: Austria ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-19: European Parliament ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-21: Luxembourg ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-26: Greece ratifies Serbia's SAA.[76]

2011-Jan-28: Czech Republic ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Feb-10: Germany ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Mar-01: United Kingdom ratifies Serbia's SAA.[77]

2011-Mar-03: Denmark ratifies Serbia's SAA[78][79]

2011-Mar-04: Portugal ratifies Serbia's SAA

2011-Apr-15: Sweden ratifies Serbia's SAA

2011-May-30: Latvia ratifies Serbia's SAA

why the rush to join the EU? A better name for the EU would be "Austerity Union". It seems Serbia believes the EU will automatically bring prosperity, but sadly, that is far from the case. Serbia would be better off harmonizing its laws with the EU but remaining out of the EU; that way, it would have complete control over its fiscal/monetary policy and not be a vassal, like Greece is, to Germany, France, and the European Central banks.

Whilst this is true Zoran it is also true that most non Serbians who don't want Serbia in the EU hold this position because they think it will harm Serbia economically and don't want Serbia to progress.
(bganon, 9 June 2011 12:36)
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What you say sounds more theoretical but in reality it hasn't worked out that way. For instance, after the Bosnian war, Federacija received the lions share of investments and funding but ended up much worse off than Republika Sprska. Look at our neighbours who are in the EU. How better off are they? How much debt do they have now compared to pre-membership? Romania had no debt but it now has over 100 billion. Does the average person live better in Hungary? What about Bulgaria? Some nice new roads but they still have potholes. Greece, well no comment. What has gone wrong?

After having a decade of sanctions, living through bombings and wars, we are still better off than all of our neighbours.

I believe too, but Serbia has to do more, much more.

On the other hand one prominent country in the EU has continued too do well from this economic policy and would in a fabulous position with assets to purchase a many few Greek Islands at a handsome price when the time is ripe!
(Principa, Gracanica, KiM, Srbija, 9 June 2011 17:33

I agree with you that the single market has benefited Germany more than any other country in the EU.The abolition of import duties has allowed German exports to destroy whatever indestry was left in the periphery. The Euro,since the launch of the Euro in 2002, has effectively become a German currency empire which is draining the resources of the Eurozone’s smaller economies.

The Mediterranean-trim are caught in a debt trap where their economies are suffering, they are incurring debt and must then impose austerity measures which further weaken their economies. Yet their economies will not grow so long as the Euro helps German manufacturers dominate the Eurozone.

Zoran personal experience isn't the best way of measuring. Statistics are more reliable indicators of comparing like with like.

I too have visited all neighbouring countries and it really depends where you go and what you are comparing with. Try comparing Kursumlija or Vranje and their surrounding areas with the large majority of similar sized Hungarian or Romanian towns / areas and things look very bleak indeed for Serbia. On the other hand if we compare Indjija or Zrenjanin to similar type towns in Hungary or Romania and we come out much better. However, the fact is that our bad areas are worse than theirs and in most cases their best areas are better than ours. If that wasn't the case Serbia would doing better economically than it is.

I have also travelled throughout Albania recently stopping in Durres and Tirana. It pains me to say it but the parts of Tirana I visited were cleaner than Belgrade. Certainly the disgusting graffiti that you see in Belgrade all over the place including people's homes and flats (not the art, but hooligans and right wing messages) is not present in Tirana. Durres too looked like it was making huge gains economically speaking.

The 'western' economic system is called capitalism Zoran. Its nothing to do with East and West. Capitalism doesn't care where you are from and doesn't choose particular prey - everything is prey if you want to see it that way. In other words everything is about profit. We know the system and who it serves. It is simple whilst nation states might conspire concerning east and west, capitalism cares not about anything apart from making a buck.

Princip thats not the case if one borrow's wisely. Many of the world's most succesfull business took out large loans in order to invest in their companies. Of course the creditors will enjoy taking your property if you can't pay them back, thats the nature of the beast.

Bankrupcy? What happens - somebody is declared bankrupt and starts again. A country defaults on its loans, after 5 years or so its like nothing even happened in international terms - unless you are a poor African state of course who are the countries that really have the odds stacked against them, if there is a conspiracy it is against them, not European countries that are bailed out and protected.

If you don't believe me go forward 5 years or so and see what the situation is in Spain, Portugal, Italy or Greece. This isn't the first debt inspired crisis we had and it won't be the last.

I believe it to Mr Tadiq, but let's hope it is not soon!

Tung

The bottom line is that Holland is not about to ratify SAA for Serbia. That is just bad Karma for Serbia. Nothing can be done about it. It is the Law of the Universe. Serbs you right. The only alternative if for Serbia to take a long term loan from their traditional ally Greece.

On the other hand, you seem to not understand the importance of having a single strong currency to better protect imports and exports against the dollar. Nixon did a nice trick at some point in the beginning of the 70's with the gold standard.

KU

Since you seem to understand that a strong currency helps exports can you explain how a strong euro will make the Greek,Portugese or Spanish tourist industry become competitive?

The truth is the Euro currency was designed on the German mark and on the demands of the German industry and not on the competitiveness of the Med countries.
Furthermore the costs of German re-unification were priced in the value of euro and this is why the cost of living exploded in all countries which introduced the currency.

Since you drew your attention on my criticism of US invasions and collateral damage around the world i'd like to see your point of view aired on B92 or are you afraid of uncle Joseph?

It is the unfortunate symptom of the abused prostitute that he believes somehow someday his pimp will come to love and respect him.

'On thing many commentators on this site can agree on, be they Serbian, Albanian and others, is that Serbia doesn't belong in the EU.'

Whilst this is true Zoran it is also true that most non Serbians who don't want Serbia in the EU hold this position because they think it will harm Serbia economically and don't want Serbia to progress.

In my opinion an in depth study should be made to assess the gains / losses of EU membership. There is enough empirical evidence out there of similar countries to Serbia - the impact on industries etc.

My suspicions of the EU are not ideological, rather based on maximum economic gain for the citizens of Serbia. If the citizens of Serbia gain from membership its a no brainer.

I too think the Dutch Parliament will ratify soon. This is a mere hiccup Why shouldn't Serbia join the main European economic organisation. Serbia is a European country after all! And i see a very creative and well educated work force when i visit Serbia everyyear. However small geographically Serbia is i know its people will punch above their weight, very similar to Ireland.

The 'western' economic system is called capitalism Zoran. Its nothing to do with East and West. Capitalism doesn't care where you are from and doesn't choose particular prey - everything is prey if you want to see it that way. In other words everything is about profit. We know the system and who it serves. It is simple whilst nation states might conspire concerning east and west, capitalism cares not about anything apart from making a buck.
(bganon, 9 June 2011 19:18)
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Please, stop changing your opinion like the wind. I know you think your opinion is consistent but it isn't. There is a sinister side to this "capitalism" that even you agreed to but you now paint it in a different light. Listen to what John Perkins has to say about it. Check -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA5bwYWvGtc

The situation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabilisation_and_Association_Process

Of course The Netherlands and the remaining countries that have not yet ratified their approval will allow Serbia to start proceedings and to join the EU.
This also counts for Croatia, Bosnia and Macedonia.
At this stage I am not so sure what is the path for Montenegro and Albania. There is still too much that needs to be done before they are ready for candidate status. However it is only a matter of time before they too will eventually be joining the EU club.
The EU is better off with a peaceful and prosperous region in the middle of Europe, we call the Balkan, then a region where war and devastation are always lurking because of a few nationalistic voices that preach hatred and intolerance.
The Balkan too is better off with the EU because the EU will bring stability, prosperity, security and opportunity to all, as well as protecting the democratic, human and religious rights of all citizens.
I know that what I just said will invoke plenty of rebuttals, i.e.;
What stability, the EU is falling apart! Which prosperity, there are more people living on the poverty line then before! What security, terrorists are running rampant! And, what opportunities are you talking about when countries like Spain, Portugal and Greece are seeing record unemployment levels!
All true arguments. However I am talking of the bigger picture. The EU is a union which tackles these problems unilaterally and with consensus. The EU fights crime and corruption. And the EU will not allow anyone to violate human and religious rights.
The EU is an institution, although not perfect, that encourages freedoms and democratic rights few countries, within the current system, experienced before they joined.
More than anything the EU is a deterrent and preventor of war, the very reason why it was established in the first place. Who can argue that this is not a good thing.

I have also travelled throughout Albania recently stopping in Durres and Tirana. It pains me to say it but the parts of Tirana I visited were cleaner than Belgrade. Certainly the disgusting graffiti that you see in Belgrade all over the place including people's homes and flats (not the art, but hooligans and right wing messages) is not present in Tirana. Durres too looked like it was making huge gains economically speaking.
(bganon, 9 June 2011 19:18)


Durrës and Tirana are not the right places to look at.
The right place is the Korçë or Pogradec region, in particular where oppressed Macedonians/Serbs live.
I was there and spoke with some. My recent pretty emotional appearance on B92 is the direct result of my personal experience a week and a half ago. You can guess, what kind experience it was.

P.S. this is not an experience an average tourist ought to have in Albania... certainly it was a trip almost literally speaking through a backdoor and in an area they expect Russian-Americans the least. Was an eye-opener.

To keep it positive: hope, Albania would do it better.

Unfortunately I went a long way from being an E.U. cheerleader almost at Mircea's level to where I am now. So I won't say that I would have any condition for Albania to join E.U. because that act would only harm them.

Visa-free + Schengen (like Norway or Swizerland or Iceland) + free trade is good enough.

I believe that after 10 years of stagnation in the 90's we have to move more quickly in the economic field. If there is a greater advantage from EU membership it should be taken, if not then we should remain out.
(bganon, 10 June 2011 14:04)
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And what are the advantages of joining the EU? If we can negotiate a free trade agreement and maintain visa free travel then what else is there? The risk of a brain drain once a member is quite high.

Zoran you are asking me? Surely you are more familiar with the advantages than I am, you are against EU membership - convinced we are better outside it. You must then surely have weighed the benefits against the drawbacks to make such a decision. Thus you must know all the advantages? If you don't know I really must say I can't understand somebody who makes their mind up on something without knowing the facts.

My position is that there should be a national debate and a study into the experience of similar countries.

The brain drain argument is well and good, but I'm willing to bet you haven't studied the stats on this one either. What about the proportion of brain drainers that return to their countries with money and experience (they are not all doing the worst jobs) collected in richer EU states?

Zoran if you are going to accuse me of changing position then have the good grace to show me how I've changed position.

As I've stated previously I am not a supporter of capitalism, mainly because of the inequality it creates.

The link you posted is an inevitable consequence of the capitalist system, and is part of the search for profit. The richest countries / corporations will inevitably use these tactics to try to monopolise resources to ensure future profits.

Now Zoran you seem to think that this is 'western' behaviour. What you don't seem to understand is that this is the behaviour of those in the ascendency. Once the east is dominant it will behave in exactly the same way. In fact this has already begun.

What to do about it? A start would be for governments to run something like a responsible economic program. Tell me Zoran, do you think that if Serbia doesn't join the EU, it will be protected from debt? You think that as long as Serbia doesn't join the EU it can't collapse as Greece has? The difference being of course that nobody would be there to bail out Serbia..

You have a personal desire to believe that things are not so bad in Serbia, or at least that things are no better in neighbouring countries, but thats all it is, its not the reality. There is no evidence to support your belief. It naturally follows if you have persuaded yourself that things are just as bad elsewhere that you don't want things to change.

I believe that after 10 years of stagnation in the 90's we have to move more quickly in the economic field. If there is a greater advantage from EU membership it should be taken, if not then we should remain out.

Ataman we are talking about different things in this case. I am talking about economics and development. As my basis for comparison I was using Belgrade, where I live and Novi Sad a prosperous town in Serbia I am very familiar with. The equivalent in Albania is Tirana, capital city and Durres, a prosperous Albanian town.

I admit I didn't see enough of either town outside the central areas, but at least I travelled by bus so I got the chance to see a lot of Albania and the outskirts of both towns. I know you are a pro when it comes to travel so it was like this - Bg - Ohrid, Ohrid - Struga, Struga - Durres, Durres - Tirana, Tirana - Skoplje. Stopped everwhere except Struga where I only hung around for a few hours for the bus.

Ridiculous that there is no direct flight from Bg to Tir but much better for learning about whats going on on the ground.

Yes I know things are bad in other areas... I was actually never a great supporter of EU, although in the early days as you know the EU was less about a capitalist club and more about social aspects (so don't be so hard on yourself) but I was never against the EU either. For me the EU is like voting for politicians, you choose it because it causes you less harm than the other one. Or you don't choose it because it causes more harm...

"it was a trip almost literally speaking through a backdoor"
(Ataman, 10 June 2011 12:01)
So you had an incident involving you and a donkey - you got what you asked for...Your adventure is not unlike the one of the two flocks of sheep which Don Quixote takes for two armies. He is stoned by the shepherds...
I suggest use of conventional means for tourism, no hidden agendas and normal behavior when traveling.
Good luck!

Zoran you don't seem to understand that what you or I see are not facts. Personal experience is important, but reality is far more important than opinion.

You remind me of the guy at school who when questioned about his friendship with the school bully says 'well he's alright with me'. The reality was that the bully was a scumbag, but the narrow opinion of that guy was that the bully was 'ok'. The truth was entirely different.

Of course there is life here - the question is what kind of life! All the evidence suggests that living standards are lower. Yes, Serbia in some ways remains a traditional society where family plays a more important role - which can plug the gap with some of the problems alluded to in living standards measurements, but its not enough to make up for collapsing schools or to the poor condition of state hospitals.

I would rather have higher living standards, its a no brainer.

This time i agree with Tadic, this was only a signal ..SAA ratification is i think a done deal because it doesnt mean nothing practical..but this is another signal.. http://www.euractiv.com/en/future-eu/bulgaria-romania-denied-schengen-entry-news-505471 and this is a bloc of countries that probably in the future will stop any new WB entry...

Interestingly the route was fairly close, at least it started and ended in Ohrid.
But I was not with the bus, I was the driver.

And the only thing really positive about Korçë is the new (some say ugly) cathedral...
I don't think, it's ugly. The buildings behind the cathedral are in disrepair, people did not look very happy in the area to say the least - and the prices were definitely higher than in Macedonia while the signs of poverty more numerous.

As for the minorities: I can testify, they DO exist. And quite more than what official Albania wants to tell us. After what you say I wonder, does the Albanian government keep the areas where Serbs and Macedonians live less developed by intent or just habitually giving them less priorities.

In any case I wouldn't be happy to live in Albania as Serb or Macedonian. According to some Albanians from Albania I spoke with in Kosovo - they aren't happy to live in Albania as Albanians either, can't blame them.

They want to live in the States instead (and used to). Wish them to realize their dream and go back to America soon.

Zoran you are asking me? Surely you are more familiar with the advantages than I am, you are against EU membership - convinced we are better outside it. You must then surely have weighed the benefits against the drawbacks to make such a decision. Thus you must know all the advantages? If you don't know I really must say I can't understand somebody who makes their mind up on something without knowing the facts.
(bganon, 10 June 2011 18:58)
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Of course I know, I have my experiences and opinion which I have expressed numerous times. I am one of few who have lived in the west and returned to Serbia. I can see that we have life here. People know what life is which many in the west and capitalist countries have forgotten. I was just asking for your opinion because it seems to be changing. Anyway, the grass is always greener on the other side right, unless you have experienced both sides.

Does anyone know where I can follow the countries that have ratified or not the SAA with the Republic of Serbia? Please, send the link :).

"The Euro,since the launch of the Euro in 2002, has effectively become a German currency empire which is draining the resources of the Eurozone’s smaller economies. "
(Leonidas, 9 June 2011 18:30)

Apparently, you are too young to remember or prone to forget the currency wars in Europe before the Euro. Billions lost by countries just out of pure speculations. The weakest ones (Greece, Italy among them) were the ones suffering the most. On the other hand, you seem to not understand the importance of having a single strong currency to better protect imports and exports against the dollar. Nixon did a nice trick at some point in the beginning of the 70's with the gold standard. European governments were shitting in their pants and chaos reigned supreme. Judging from your antiamerican positions, protection against the dollar should be good right? Plus, it is not like countries were forced to enter the Euro. There were precise criteria (Maastricht) to be able to get in. I agree that Greece should not have gone inside the Euro because it was not ready yet. Greece governments from what we hear around manipulated their books to get in. They lied. It is coming all back unfortunately to bite them. They could have stayed out and used the drachma. The Greek Central Bank would have been free to issue its own money and you would be dealing with astronomic inflation right now. You would see the prices of imports go up just because some people on Wall Street decide that today the drachma has 30% less value against the Euro and the Dollar than it had yesterday. But hey, who am I to show you some sense. It is those bad Germans' fault. They should have kept their Deutschemark. (Remember the mighty Deutschemark? At some point it was the only good currency used in Serbia.) Damn their high productivity.

I suggest use of conventional means for tourism, no hidden agendas and normal behavior when traveling.
Good luck!
(Mini Giraffe, 10 June 2011 21:16)

Miri-Giraffe - you welcome to join the group and even drive and show us Albania the way you like.

Zoran how much better off these countries are depends on what measurement you use.

We all know they have higher wages, but they also have a higher standard of living, better human development etc. The parameters used in these measurements includes health care, education, employment and many other factors.

Greece although highly indebted is invariably among the top 25 or so countries in the world. Debt is only one factor among many.

On a micro level I don't understand the obsession with debt. Without the ability to take out a loan half the businesses running in the world would not exist. We are not all born into money, there has to be a way that individuals and countries can borrow in order to expand.

You say that we are better off than all our neighbours, all the evidence points to the contrary. In which way is Serbia better off?

"The Euro,since the launch of the Euro in 2002, has effectively become a German currency empire which is draining the resources of the Eurozone’s smaller economies. "
(Leonidas, 9 June 2011 18:30)

Apparently, you are too young to remember or prone to forget the currency wars in Europe before the Euro. Billions lost by countries just out of pure speculations. The weakest ones (Greece, Italy among them) were the ones suffering the most. On the other hand, you seem to not understand the importance of having a single strong currency to better protect imports and exports against the dollar. Nixon did a nice trick at some point in the beginning of the 70's with the gold standard. European governments were shitting in their pants and chaos reigned supreme. Judging from your antiamerican positions, protection against the dollar should be good right? Plus, it is not like countries were forced to enter the Euro. There were precise criteria (Maastricht) to be able to get in. I agree that Greece should not have gone inside the Euro because it was not ready yet. Greece governments from what we hear around manipulated their books to get in. They lied. It is coming all back unfortunately to bite them. They could have stayed out and used the drachma. The Greek Central Bank would have been free to issue its own money and you would be dealing with astronomic inflation right now. You would see the prices of imports go up just because some people on Wall Street decide that today the drachma has 30% less value against the Euro and the Dollar than it had yesterday. But hey, who am I to show you some sense. It is those bad Germans' fault. They should have kept their Deutschemark. (Remember the mighty Deutschemark? At some point it was the only good currency used in Serbia.) Damn their high productivity.

You say that we are better off than all our neighbours, all the evidence points to the contrary. In which way is Serbia better off?
(bganon, 9 June 2011 15:37)
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Yes, and I base that on observation. I have travelled to all neighbouring countries (except Albania) and I cannot see that Serbia is any worse off. Mind you, that is after 10 years of economic sanctions and war. I was not very impressed with the countryside of Hungary or Bulgaria. How bleak can you get? Even the gypsies, in comparison, brightened up the Romanian countryside but when re-entering Serbia it is like life has finally returned. Actually, I was more impressed with Republika Srpska. Now that place seems to be doing better than Serbia.

Yes, we need loans for expansion, such as viable infrastructure projects but when it's used to finance an inefficient budget then the whole thing goes pear shaped. When our most valuable assets are stripped and we lose revenue to support that budget, we start getting into trouble. The western economic system see Serbia as prey and not a partner.

Tadic is one big fool. Instead of being brave and fixing the problems facing Serbia, he puts all of his eggs in one basket case called the EU. I am not surprised we are getting more and more protests.

I believe too, but Serbia has to do more, much more.

Of course The Netherlands and the remaining countries that have not yet ratified their approval will allow Serbia to start proceedings and to join the EU.
This also counts for Croatia, Bosnia and Macedonia.
At this stage I am not so sure what is the path for Montenegro and Albania. There is still too much that needs to be done before they are ready for candidate status. However it is only a matter of time before they too will eventually be joining the EU club.
The EU is better off with a peaceful and prosperous region in the middle of Europe, we call the Balkan, then a region where war and devastation are always lurking because of a few nationalistic voices that preach hatred and intolerance.
The Balkan too is better off with the EU because the EU will bring stability, prosperity, security and opportunity to all, as well as protecting the democratic, human and religious rights of all citizens.
I know that what I just said will invoke plenty of rebuttals, i.e.;
What stability, the EU is falling apart! Which prosperity, there are more people living on the poverty line then before! What security, terrorists are running rampant! And, what opportunities are you talking about when countries like Spain, Portugal and Greece are seeing record unemployment levels!
All true arguments. However I am talking of the bigger picture. The EU is a union which tackles these problems unilaterally and with consensus. The EU fights crime and corruption. And the EU will not allow anyone to violate human and religious rights.
The EU is an institution, although not perfect, that encourages freedoms and democratic rights few countries, within the current system, experienced before they joined.
More than anything the EU is a deterrent and preventor of war, the very reason why it was established in the first place. Who can argue that this is not a good thing.

'On thing many commentators on this site can agree on, be they Serbian, Albanian and others, is that Serbia doesn't belong in the EU.'

Whilst this is true Zoran it is also true that most non Serbians who don't want Serbia in the EU hold this position because they think it will harm Serbia economically and don't want Serbia to progress.

In my opinion an in depth study should be made to assess the gains / losses of EU membership. There is enough empirical evidence out there of similar countries to Serbia - the impact on industries etc.

My suspicions of the EU are not ideological, rather based on maximum economic gain for the citizens of Serbia. If the citizens of Serbia gain from membership its a no brainer.

Sure Tadic keep spinning

- many Serbians have awoken from this game of charades EU pretends to hold Serbia back Tadic does something just in time for presidential and parliament elections just so that the Tadic & the yellows hold onto power.

Beyond elections the result is no progress if not worse economic conditions for the vast majority while the yellow few scam ever more in EU company deals. Look no further than what has transpired with the FIAT deal - thousands of lost jobs rather than the promise/lies of thousands to be created, hundreds of millions of Euro's in debt held against Serbia for Loans that Fiat can spend who knows where and in the meantime all of what could have been a competitive of Fiats left a continued waste land nearly 4 years on. What happened to the 800 million Euro deal???

Bganon,
"On a micro level I don't understand the obsession with debt. Without the ability to take out a loan half the businesses running in the world would not exist. We are not all born into money, there has to be a way that individuals and countries can borrow in order to expand."

- eventually your debt far outweighs your capacity to develop due to interest payments taking more and more tax revenues and potentially leading to what is called bankruptcy - something that many EU countries are on the verge off which would lead to a domino effect knocking out much of the rest of the EU states. Think about it why there is such an obsession in the markets who are all betting on Greek defaults - currently it seems a sure bet! On the other hand one prominent country in the EU has continued too do well from this economic policy and would in a fabulous position with assets to purchase a many few Greek Islands at a handsome price when the time is ripe!

Whilst this is true Zoran it is also true that most non Serbians who don't want Serbia in the EU hold this position because they think it will harm Serbia economically and don't want Serbia to progress.
(bganon, 9 June 2011 12:36)
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What you say sounds more theoretical but in reality it hasn't worked out that way. For instance, after the Bosnian war, Federacija received the lions share of investments and funding but ended up much worse off than Republika Sprska. Look at our neighbours who are in the EU. How better off are they? How much debt do they have now compared to pre-membership? Romania had no debt but it now has over 100 billion. Does the average person live better in Hungary? What about Bulgaria? Some nice new roads but they still have potholes. Greece, well no comment. What has gone wrong?

After having a decade of sanctions, living through bombings and wars, we are still better off than all of our neighbours.

The bottom line is that Holland is not about to ratify SAA for Serbia. That is just bad Karma for Serbia. Nothing can be done about it. It is the Law of the Universe. Serbs you right. The only alternative if for Serbia to take a long term loan from their traditional ally Greece.

This time i agree with Tadic, this was only a signal ..SAA ratification is i think a done deal because it doesnt mean nothing practical..but this is another signal.. http://www.euractiv.com/en/future-eu/bulgaria-romania-denied-schengen-entry-news-505471 and this is a bloc of countries that probably in the future will stop any new WB entry...

I believe it to Mr Tadiq, but let's hope it is not soon!

Tung

I too think the Dutch Parliament will ratify soon. This is a mere hiccup Why shouldn't Serbia join the main European economic organisation. Serbia is a European country after all! And i see a very creative and well educated work force when i visit Serbia everyyear. However small geographically Serbia is i know its people will punch above their weight, very similar to Ireland.

DD

Here's a list of key dates of Serbia's accession to the EU including thouse countries who have ratified the SAA (via wikipedia):

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Accession_of_Serbia_to_the_European_Union

2010-Jun-21: Spain ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2010-Jul-02: Malta ratifies Serbia's SAA.[72]

2010-Jul-16: Bulgaria ratifies Serbia's SAA.[73]

2010-Aug-19: Estonia ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2010-Sep-09: Slovakia ratifies Serbia's SAA.[74]

2010-Nov-16: Hungary ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2010-Nov-26: Cyprus ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2010-Dec-07: Slovenia ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-06: Italy ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-13: Austria ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-19: European Parliament ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-21: Luxembourg ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Jan-26: Greece ratifies Serbia's SAA.[76]

2011-Jan-28: Czech Republic ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Feb-10: Germany ratifies Serbia's SAA.

2011-Mar-01: United Kingdom ratifies Serbia's SAA.[77]

2011-Mar-03: Denmark ratifies Serbia's SAA[78][79]

2011-Mar-04: Portugal ratifies Serbia's SAA

2011-Apr-15: Sweden ratifies Serbia's SAA

2011-May-30: Latvia ratifies Serbia's SAA

Zoran you are asking me? Surely you are more familiar with the advantages than I am, you are against EU membership - convinced we are better outside it. You must then surely have weighed the benefits against the drawbacks to make such a decision. Thus you must know all the advantages? If you don't know I really must say I can't understand somebody who makes their mind up on something without knowing the facts.
(bganon, 10 June 2011 18:58)
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Of course I know, I have my experiences and opinion which I have expressed numerous times. I am one of few who have lived in the west and returned to Serbia. I can see that we have life here. People know what life is which many in the west and capitalist countries have forgotten. I was just asking for your opinion because it seems to be changing. Anyway, the grass is always greener on the other side right, unless you have experienced both sides.

This time i agree with Tadic, this was only a signal ..SAA ratification is i think a done deal because it doesnt mean nothing practical..but this is another signal.. [link] and this is a bloc of countries that probably in the future will stop any new WB entry...
(Luigi, 9 June 2011 10:13)
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I hope this is true Luigi. On thing many commentators on this site can agree on, be they Serbian, Albanian and others, is that Serbia doesn't belong in the EU. I'm glad there is much resistance there.

Bulgaria and Romania have so many restrictions on their "membership" that it isn't too different to what Serbia has, as a non-member. Essentially a free trade agreement and visa free travel.

I hope the Orthodox countries wake up and realise the EU is not for them.

I have also travelled throughout Albania recently stopping in Durres and Tirana. It pains me to say it but the parts of Tirana I visited were cleaner than Belgrade. Certainly the disgusting graffiti that you see in Belgrade all over the place including people's homes and flats (not the art, but hooligans and right wing messages) is not present in Tirana. Durres too looked like it was making huge gains economically speaking.
(bganon, 9 June 2011 19:18)


Durrës and Tirana are not the right places to look at.
The right place is the Korçë or Pogradec region, in particular where oppressed Macedonians/Serbs live.
I was there and spoke with some. My recent pretty emotional appearance on B92 is the direct result of my personal experience a week and a half ago. You can guess, what kind experience it was.

P.S. this is not an experience an average tourist ought to have in Albania... certainly it was a trip almost literally speaking through a backdoor and in an area they expect Russian-Americans the least. Was an eye-opener.

To keep it positive: hope, Albania would do it better.

Unfortunately I went a long way from being an E.U. cheerleader almost at Mircea's level to where I am now. So I won't say that I would have any condition for Albania to join E.U. because that act would only harm them.

Visa-free + Schengen (like Norway or Swizerland or Iceland) + free trade is good enough.

Zoran if you are going to accuse me of changing position then have the good grace to show me how I've changed position.

As I've stated previously I am not a supporter of capitalism, mainly because of the inequality it creates.

The link you posted is an inevitable consequence of the capitalist system, and is part of the search for profit. The richest countries / corporations will inevitably use these tactics to try to monopolise resources to ensure future profits.

Now Zoran you seem to think that this is 'western' behaviour. What you don't seem to understand is that this is the behaviour of those in the ascendency. Once the east is dominant it will behave in exactly the same way. In fact this has already begun.

What to do about it? A start would be for governments to run something like a responsible economic program. Tell me Zoran, do you think that if Serbia doesn't join the EU, it will be protected from debt? You think that as long as Serbia doesn't join the EU it can't collapse as Greece has? The difference being of course that nobody would be there to bail out Serbia..

You have a personal desire to believe that things are not so bad in Serbia, or at least that things are no better in neighbouring countries, but thats all it is, its not the reality. There is no evidence to support your belief. It naturally follows if you have persuaded yourself that things are just as bad elsewhere that you don't want things to change.

I believe that after 10 years of stagnation in the 90's we have to move more quickly in the economic field. If there is a greater advantage from EU membership it should be taken, if not then we should remain out.

Ataman we are talking about different things in this case. I am talking about economics and development. As my basis for comparison I was using Belgrade, where I live and Novi Sad a prosperous town in Serbia I am very familiar with. The equivalent in Albania is Tirana, capital city and Durres, a prosperous Albanian town.

I admit I didn't see enough of either town outside the central areas, but at least I travelled by bus so I got the chance to see a lot of Albania and the outskirts of both towns. I know you are a pro when it comes to travel so it was like this - Bg - Ohrid, Ohrid - Struga, Struga - Durres, Durres - Tirana, Tirana - Skoplje. Stopped everwhere except Struga where I only hung around for a few hours for the bus.

Ridiculous that there is no direct flight from Bg to Tir but much better for learning about whats going on on the ground.

Yes I know things are bad in other areas... I was actually never a great supporter of EU, although in the early days as you know the EU was less about a capitalist club and more about social aspects (so don't be so hard on yourself) but I was never against the EU either. For me the EU is like voting for politicians, you choose it because it causes you less harm than the other one. Or you don't choose it because it causes more harm...

Zoran you are asking me? Surely you are more familiar with the advantages than I am, you are against EU membership - convinced we are better outside it. You must then surely have weighed the benefits against the drawbacks to make such a decision. Thus you must know all the advantages? If you don't know I really must say I can't understand somebody who makes their mind up on something without knowing the facts.

My position is that there should be a national debate and a study into the experience of similar countries.

The brain drain argument is well and good, but I'm willing to bet you haven't studied the stats on this one either. What about the proportion of brain drainers that return to their countries with money and experience (they are not all doing the worst jobs) collected in richer EU states?

The situation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabilisation_and_Association_Process

Zoran personal experience isn't the best way of measuring. Statistics are more reliable indicators of comparing like with like.

I too have visited all neighbouring countries and it really depends where you go and what you are comparing with. Try comparing Kursumlija or Vranje and their surrounding areas with the large majority of similar sized Hungarian or Romanian towns / areas and things look very bleak indeed for Serbia. On the other hand if we compare Indjija or Zrenjanin to similar type towns in Hungary or Romania and we come out much better. However, the fact is that our bad areas are worse than theirs and in most cases their best areas are better than ours. If that wasn't the case Serbia would doing better economically than it is.

I have also travelled throughout Albania recently stopping in Durres and Tirana. It pains me to say it but the parts of Tirana I visited were cleaner than Belgrade. Certainly the disgusting graffiti that you see in Belgrade all over the place including people's homes and flats (not the art, but hooligans and right wing messages) is not present in Tirana. Durres too looked like it was making huge gains economically speaking.

The 'western' economic system is called capitalism Zoran. Its nothing to do with East and West. Capitalism doesn't care where you are from and doesn't choose particular prey - everything is prey if you want to see it that way. In other words everything is about profit. We know the system and who it serves. It is simple whilst nation states might conspire concerning east and west, capitalism cares not about anything apart from making a buck.

Princip thats not the case if one borrow's wisely. Many of the world's most succesfull business took out large loans in order to invest in their companies. Of course the creditors will enjoy taking your property if you can't pay them back, thats the nature of the beast.

Bankrupcy? What happens - somebody is declared bankrupt and starts again. A country defaults on its loans, after 5 years or so its like nothing even happened in international terms - unless you are a poor African state of course who are the countries that really have the odds stacked against them, if there is a conspiracy it is against them, not European countries that are bailed out and protected.

If you don't believe me go forward 5 years or so and see what the situation is in Spain, Portugal, Italy or Greece. This isn't the first debt inspired crisis we had and it won't be the last.

Does anyone know where I can follow the countries that have ratified or not the SAA with the Republic of Serbia? Please, send the link :).

Interestingly the route was fairly close, at least it started and ended in Ohrid.
But I was not with the bus, I was the driver.

And the only thing really positive about Korçë is the new (some say ugly) cathedral...
I don't think, it's ugly. The buildings behind the cathedral are in disrepair, people did not look very happy in the area to say the least - and the prices were definitely higher than in Macedonia while the signs of poverty more numerous.

As for the minorities: I can testify, they DO exist. And quite more than what official Albania wants to tell us. After what you say I wonder, does the Albanian government keep the areas where Serbs and Macedonians live less developed by intent or just habitually giving them less priorities.

In any case I wouldn't be happy to live in Albania as Serb or Macedonian. According to some Albanians from Albania I spoke with in Kosovo - they aren't happy to live in Albania as Albanians either, can't blame them.

They want to live in the States instead (and used to). Wish them to realize their dream and go back to America soon.

"it was a trip almost literally speaking through a backdoor"
(Ataman, 10 June 2011 12:01)
So you had an incident involving you and a donkey - you got what you asked for...Your adventure is not unlike the one of the two flocks of sheep which Don Quixote takes for two armies. He is stoned by the shepherds...
I suggest use of conventional means for tourism, no hidden agendas and normal behavior when traveling.
Good luck!

I suggest use of conventional means for tourism, no hidden agendas and normal behavior when traveling.
Good luck!
(Mini Giraffe, 10 June 2011 21:16)

Miri-Giraffe - you welcome to join the group and even drive and show us Albania the way you like.

Zoran you don't seem to understand that what you or I see are not facts. Personal experience is important, but reality is far more important than opinion.

You remind me of the guy at school who when questioned about his friendship with the school bully says 'well he's alright with me'. The reality was that the bully was a scumbag, but the narrow opinion of that guy was that the bully was 'ok'. The truth was entirely different.

Of course there is life here - the question is what kind of life! All the evidence suggests that living standards are lower. Yes, Serbia in some ways remains a traditional society where family plays a more important role - which can plug the gap with some of the problems alluded to in living standards measurements, but its not enough to make up for collapsing schools or to the poor condition of state hospitals.

I would rather have higher living standards, its a no brainer.

It is the unfortunate symptom of the abused prostitute that he believes somehow someday his pimp will come to love and respect him.

why the rush to join the EU? A better name for the EU would be "Austerity Union". It seems Serbia believes the EU will automatically bring prosperity, but sadly, that is far from the case. Serbia would be better off harmonizing its laws with the EU but remaining out of the EU; that way, it would have complete control over its fiscal/monetary policy and not be a vassal, like Greece is, to Germany, France, and the European Central banks.

On the other hand one prominent country in the EU has continued too do well from this economic policy and would in a fabulous position with assets to purchase a many few Greek Islands at a handsome price when the time is ripe!
(Principa, Gracanica, KiM, Srbija, 9 June 2011 17:33

I agree with you that the single market has benefited Germany more than any other country in the EU.The abolition of import duties has allowed German exports to destroy whatever indestry was left in the periphery. The Euro,since the launch of the Euro in 2002, has effectively become a German currency empire which is draining the resources of the Eurozone’s smaller economies.

The Mediterranean-trim are caught in a debt trap where their economies are suffering, they are incurring debt and must then impose austerity measures which further weaken their economies. Yet their economies will not grow so long as the Euro helps German manufacturers dominate the Eurozone.

The 'western' economic system is called capitalism Zoran. Its nothing to do with East and West. Capitalism doesn't care where you are from and doesn't choose particular prey - everything is prey if you want to see it that way. In other words everything is about profit. We know the system and who it serves. It is simple whilst nation states might conspire concerning east and west, capitalism cares not about anything apart from making a buck.
(bganon, 9 June 2011 19:18)
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Please, stop changing your opinion like the wind. I know you think your opinion is consistent but it isn't. There is a sinister side to this "capitalism" that even you agreed to but you now paint it in a different light. Listen to what John Perkins has to say about it. Check -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA5bwYWvGtc

On the other hand, you seem to not understand the importance of having a single strong currency to better protect imports and exports against the dollar. Nixon did a nice trick at some point in the beginning of the 70's with the gold standard.

KU

Since you seem to understand that a strong currency helps exports can you explain how a strong euro will make the Greek,Portugese or Spanish tourist industry become competitive?

The truth is the Euro currency was designed on the German mark and on the demands of the German industry and not on the competitiveness of the Med countries.
Furthermore the costs of German re-unification were priced in the value of euro and this is why the cost of living exploded in all countries which introduced the currency.

Since you drew your attention on my criticism of US invasions and collateral damage around the world i'd like to see your point of view aired on B92 or are you afraid of uncle Joseph?

I believe that after 10 years of stagnation in the 90's we have to move more quickly in the economic field. If there is a greater advantage from EU membership it should be taken, if not then we should remain out.
(bganon, 10 June 2011 14:04)
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And what are the advantages of joining the EU? If we can negotiate a free trade agreement and maintain visa free travel then what else is there? The risk of a brain drain once a member is quite high.