Mladić postpones entering plea at Hague Tribunal

Long live General Mladic! If it was not for him there would be no Serbs in Bosnia now. Generale Republika te voli.

FOUND THIS...
Yasushi Akashi, former UN Representative in Bosnia, admitted in the Washington Times of 1 November 1995, that "it is a fact that the Bosnian government forces have used the 'safe areas' of not only Srebrenica, but Sarajevo, Tuzla, Bihac, Gorazde for training, recuperation and refurbishing their troops." In other words, the so-called safe areas were used as military posts to train Mujahedin fighters from Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Turkey and the entire Islamic world, free to commit their treachery by attacking Serbian villages and returning like thieves in the night back to the safety of their UN protectors who conveniently looked the other way to these violations. Prior to the events at Srebrenica, these "Holy Warriors of Islam" had attacked 42 surrounding Serbian villages and over 3,000 Serbian villagers had been slaughtered without fear of being reprimanded or punished by the UN. Yet, when Serbs were provoked to retaliate against these Muslim assaults from these so-called "safe-areas," they were condemned by the entire world.

I took the time to listen to the tribunal hearing and I have to admit that Mladic is not a well man, but hey why have that come in the way of a good show trial. Mladic has nothing to answer for but the fact that he was smarter than all the western windbags put together. For those doubters have a good look at your political and military leadership from the west and tell me who would you say is not only a patriot but would not sell his people short. No such creature exists in the land of Oz– they would sell you and your loved ones quicker than you can say New York.
Mladic loves his people and they will sing songs about him but who will sing about Bill Clinton or Wesley Clarke. Not even their grandchildren; in one generation they will disappear from collective memory.
Mladic can barely speak but the show must go on to prove to the world that the US and their crawlers were right. Little wonder the west is despised.

Zoran don't bother trying to use logic with bganon. The fact that muslims inside Sarajevo were firing at Serbs from beside hospitals, schools, hotels...which Lewis MacKenzie and many other UN Generals confirmed, in order to draw return fire and blame the Serbs for 'shelling civilians', fall deaf on the ears of brainwashed otporists like bganon.

Mladic is a HERO, pure and simple!
It was sad and infuriating to see such a great man, in his twilight years humiliated on international TV!
It’s totally insane to accuse Mladic, who was defending his homeland and people from slaughter at the hands of blood thirsty murderers and Islamic terrorists as a criminal!

The so called, international war crimes tribunal in the Hague has proven time and time again that it is nothing more than a Kangaroo court!
It lacks any kind or legitimacy or moral credibility!
It is total insult to fairness and justice!

The real criminals are Clinton, Blair, Albright, Clark and Bush and yet, these creatures are conveniently immune from prosecution!
Only in a sick and corrupt world can these heinous individuals go around killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people through bombings and sanctions and have the audacity to say that they are spreading freedom and democracy!
This kind of reality only exists in the mind of a schizophrenic!

Mladic is a great man!
He is a man of morals and integrity!
A quality that is totally lacking and foreign to the "Hague"
Despite of his ailing health and their shameful attempts at public humiliation, Mladic will stand tall.
After all, he has faced and survived far, far worse!

I'm sure that Predrag is quite capable of answering why he believes a man that bombs civilians is a hero.
(bganon, 3 June 2011 15:16)

Lets be clear here.
This was a "WAR" and in wars, civilians die!
You just need to look at the heroic actions by the US and the UK to see that they have no issues with bombing innocent civilians, all in the name of freedom and democracy!

Secondly:
It was the Muslims who refused to allow the civilian population of Sarajevo to leave the city, under the pretence that they were saving it from ethnic cleansing!
I have a feeling that the civilian population would have view it differently!

Journalists from CNN, BBC etc were all free to come and go into this human zoo and stay at the Holiday Inn, whilst the innocent civilians were far more useful as targets, human shields and propaganda tools all for the convenience of the hungry western media.

Thirdly:
Lets not forget that there was a large Serbian population in Sarajevo who were also being targeted by Muslim snipers, so please, lets not be so naive and simplistic as to believe that this was a war of good and evil.

Mladic did not extend the war.
The Bosnian Serb army had the power to wipe out all of Bosnia if they had chosen to do so.
It was NATO who was insisting on arming and supplying the Muslim terrorists that prolonged the conflict!

And one final note.
The Bosnian Muslims were often accused by the peace keepers of shelling their own people to gain attention and manipulate the world media in order to gain sympathy and NATO intervention.
Even the bombing in the Sarajevo market place was highly disputed!

I stand by my original post
Mladic was a hero.
He was defending HIS LAND and HIS PEOPLE from extermination!

Mladić is facing 11 counts of genocide, crimes against humanity and other war crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1992 until 1995.
--
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7478738/Gay-Dutch-soldiers-responsible-for-Srebrenica-massacre-says-US-general.html

According to this US general and former NATO commander, he knows who is responsible for Srebrenica.

Serbs have suffered immensely because of him, and the 4000 Serbs killed around Srebrenica would be alive if he had accepted the agreement in 1993 toi end the war. Read a bit about this.
(LOGICAL, 3 June 2011 13:59)
--
I am reading about it in the NIOD Institute report http://www.srebrenica.nl/Pages/OOR/23/379.bGFuZz1OTA.html but this wasn't reported by CNN and BBC. They had another agenda.
==
On 6 May Muslim fighters from Srebrenica launched a counterattack on the Serbs in this town. Goran Zekic was murdered on 8 May 1992. The Serbs allege that this was the work of a Muslim police officer in Srebrenica, Hakija Meholjic. This murder heralded the exodus of Serbs from Srebrenica, an event that was observed to occur on numerous occasions in the Bosnian conflict following the death of a prominent local figure. This exodus received added impetus in the form of two other Muslims, Naser Oric and Zulfo Tursonovic, who had assumed the role of commanders and who began to attack surrounding villages inhabited by Serbs and then advanced on Srebrenica.

Overall, Muslim fighters from Srebrenica attacked 79 Serbian places in the districts of Srebrenica and Bratunac. They followed a certain pattern. Initially, Serbs were driven out of ethnically mixed towns. Then Serbian hamlets surrounded by Muslim towns were attacked and finally the remaining Serbian settlements were overrun. The residents were murdered, their homes were plundered and burnt down or blown up. There was a preference to launch these attacks on Serbian public holidays (those of Saint Joris, Saint Vitus and the Blessed Peter, and Christmas Day), probably because least resistance was expected. Yet it simultaneously contributed to the development of profound Serbian grievances. Many of these attacks were bloody in nature. For example, the victims had their throats slit, they were assaulted with pitchforks or they were set on fire.

Zoran did you really post a link to a report saying that Dutch gays are responsible for Srebrenica?

Wow, talk about scraping the barrel...

Predrag, please explain to me how a man in charge of an army can be great and yet day in day out order attacks on civilians in a town (Sarajevo) for months and years. And please explain to me the purpose of those attacks bearing in mind that Bosnian Serb forces never made any serious attempt to take Sarajevo.

Morals and integrity is obviously something you are lacking if you think that attacks on civilians are justified.

bganon,
Listen troll, I have better things to do with my time than manipulate vote counts. that is something you and your albanian friends do all day, since you have nothing better to do. I take pleasure in dismantling your illogical arguments, for which you seem to have no intelligent response, only name calling.
Cheers!

It is alleged that former Bosnian Serb Army commander General Ratko Mladic was treated at a Belgrade hospital two years ago,

General Mladic’s Lawyer showed the Associated Press news agency a document purportedly showing General Mladic that his client underwent surgery and chemotherapy; however, the authenticity of the document cannot be checked.

Serbian Defence Minister Dragan Sutanovac said: “I really do not believe in that story, but we will investigate it.”

General Mladic’s Lawyer told the Media that he had only been sent the hospital document on Monday, a day before General Mladic was flown out to the Netherlands.

General Mladic’s Lawyer alleges that a man called him on the phone, asking if he was interested in a document that could prevent Ratko Mladic’s extradition to The Hague.

General Mladic’s arrest is considered Crucial to the Serbian Government plans to Recognize an Independent Kosovo, under the guise of joining the European Union, and was planned after the Puppet Serbian Government stole the last Election.

America, and the Leading European Union Countries, along with a Compliant Serbian Government want to give the World the notion that the Serbs are such bad People, and because of that lie, the Kosovo Albanians deserve to be Independent.

America and the European Union have installed their Preferred Clients in the Serbian Government, and they are following the Script to convince or pressure the Serbian People to give up Kosovo.

The scheme of the Anglo-American Empire is to try to convince the Serbian People that they are so bad, that if they only give up Kosovo, then they could possibly even begin to make slight amends.

I believe that it is possible that Mladic is a Secret Muslim Modern Day Janissary who was, and who continues to Secretly work for a Foreign Government.

It seems just so convenient that Hospital Records are produced or faked, but not destroyed during the Presence of the current Serbian Government, and I wonder if Mladic will say either truthfully of falsely that he attended that Hospital for treatment in 2009.

Speak up President Boris Tadic, and speak Up you Serbian Parliamentarians, and tell the World the True Facts.

We know that the current Serbian President is from Sarajevo, the Capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is also known as Janissary City to some People.

Zoran, well if the accusation of Dutch gays in the substance of the article for defending Ratko Mladic it is scraping of the barrel. No question. If you don't believe it then why on earth post it?

Equally I'm sure that Predrag is quite capable of answering why he believes a man that bombs civilians is a hero.

At the same time you are obviously not capable of reading what I wrote. I was talking about Sarajevo, not Srebrenica. If you must answer questions put to somebody else then at least answer the right question.

So now that you have volunteered, don't be shy, (why) do you think that the bombardment of Sarajevo was justified and do you think that targetting civilians whether Bosnian Serb, Croat, Muslum was likely a war crime?

Of course I don't really expect to get a straight answer from you. More likely you will do your usual cocking a deaf 'un, or hide behind somebody else's opinion.

And yet you will state an opinion for NATO attacks on civilians as a war crime (and rightly so). Smells a bit like hypocricy.

According to this US general and former NATO commander, he knows who is responsible for Srebrenica.
(Zoran, 3 June 2011 11:34)
Yes, he explicitly said the Serbs were the perpetrators of the crime. The Dutch peacekeepers failed to stop it.
Are you trying to place more blame on the Dutch or NATO.
The "you failed to stop me from butchering those people so you are to blame not me" is not going to fly in any cirlces except those who wish to blame others for their sins.

Mladic did not want the judges to read the indictment. Me Mladic has to understand that he is not the one who gives the orders now.

And, again, the usual delaying tactics which worked so well for Milosevic. Makes some sense for an old and ill (according to himself) guy, delaying the verdict as long as possible and then dying before the it happens.

@ Predrag
If he is such a hero of yours, why dont you go testify at the Hague for all the good things he has done?

"Predrag, thanks for giving me a 'real' reason for the bombardment of Sarajevo. But that isn't much of a reason either. It can't be the fault of the attacked for not retreating. The responsiblity for an attack lies with the ones doing the attacking. I mean is it the fault of those people at that market in Nis that they were killed by NATO. They should have stayed at home would be your argument, its absurd.
'The Bosnian Serb army had the power to wipe out all of Bosnia if they had chosen to do so.'
Right, I see, which is why they DIDN'T do that.
(bganon, 3 June 2011 19:07)"

Your missing the point here.
Sarajevo was not a Muslim town that was invaded by Serbs.
Serbs made up about 40% of the population.
This was their city, just as much as it was Muslim.
Almost half of Sarajevo was in Serbian control. They were not attacking, they were defending their homes!
Just because the Serbs had bigger guns doesn't mean their cause was not justified, or their right to live in their own homes is somehow mean to be an act of genocide!
Today Sarajevo has a 5% Serbian population.
So you tell me, who were the ones that were ethnically cleansed?
Where are the rights of the Serbian population who are now unable to live in their own homes because of Islamic aggression?

As for cease fires, they were broken by the Muslims just as often as they were broken by the Serbs.

And yes, in the beginning of the war the Serbs had the fire power to level Bosnia, But that was not their intention.
If it wasnt for the interference of NATO who were supplying the Muslims and Croats as well as bombing the Serbs, the war would have ended much, much sooner

Here are pictures to remember the Serbian humanitarian mission by. Look at the love shared with Bosnian Muslims just because of their religion. War Criminals cannot escape the long arm of justice. The last set of photos at the bottom of the blog, show a Serb policeman executing a civilian. The policeman was later captured by a team of US NAVY SEALS. You can run but you cant hide forever.

http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2011/03/bosnian-genocide-pictures-are-worth.html
(The Truth Chicago, 3 June 2011 17:49) I remember that the Serbian photographer sent out the photographs to the Hague and to the world press. Then he had to flee for his life to Holland with the Serbian counter "intelligence" trying to murder him their to stop him from testifying. The Serbian intelligence bozos were caught. That was one of the few of the 10s of thousands gruesome murders of unarmed civilians children ,women ,men caught on film. The criminally so called "Srpska" should be abolished their are thousands of those kind of perpetrators in Srpska aka Greater Serbia running around free. Making a living hell for the victimized refugees trying to return to their homes and their country.

I am sure that Mladic will find much to squeal about.

Squealing is all that is left him really. A hobby to keep him entertained for the rest of his life.

The trial will be fair, but he will play silly games to delay it and to try to impress his diminishing band of supporters.

He would be a better man if he would at least show some contrition - but don't wait for it, because it won't happen.

Here are pictures to remember the Serbian humanitarian mission by. Look at the love shared with Bosnian Muslims just because of their religion. War Criminals cannot escape the long arm of justice. The last set of photos at the bottom of the blog, show a Serb policeman executing a civilian. The policeman was later captured by a team of US NAVY SEALS. You can run but you cant hide forever.

http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2011/03/bosnian-genocide-pictures-are-worth.html

Predrag you are using tired arguments. Because one time in history Serbs accounted for 40% of the population that justifies bombing it? I mean what you think its like some recipie for a dish which means that Serbs should have got 40% of the cake of Sarajevo?

Newsflash, they were bombing more than 40% of Sarajevo. And how about some sources and dates for your figures - that 40% is referring to 1921 right? Why the hell 1921??? Half of Sarajevo was in Serbian control you say, when was that exactly?

If you are talking about ordinary Serbs living in Sarajevo trying to defend their rights you would be right, but we are not talking about them, we are talking about the Bosnian Serbs bombing everybody from the safety of the hills. Takes some guts to do that! And just because I'm critical of them does not mean that ordinary Serbs, Muslums and Croats don't have the right to live in peace. I criticise any force that attacks civilians. My cousin took part in the bombardment of Sarajevo, he is from Travnik. He was conscripted and had to fight, but at the time we argued about it. These days he doesn't believe in what he did, but I tell him that at least he had no choice, so to not be hard on himself.

Where do you get your figures that Sarajevo has a 5% Serb population today? Actually I have a couple of Serb friends living in Sarajevo, they are able to live in their homes without problems so I'm not sure what you are talking about. Sarajevo is much better than most places in Bosnia where many villages have been cleansed of one nationality or the other, but Sarajevo was bombed the most. In fact its not Sarajevans (and it never was) who spread the most hate in Bosnia, it was invariably people that came from outside Sarajevo that caused the problems.

Dragan run along and get back to manipulating the vote count. If you think that others haven't noticed that you are one of the many childish trolls operating on this site, think again.

Hint, if you want to do the multiple vote thing then don't do it all at once, becuase it looks obvious to regular posters. But well done because I will single you out for the same treatment I give wtf for multiple voting and personal attacks.

Zoran I see, so Sarajevo was bombarded because there was no peace agreement in place? Thats a weighty argument. Belgrade was bombarded because there was no agreement with NATO in place. Poor NATO, its the fault of the fact there was no agreement!

Of course civilians get attacked, but day in day out for months and years on end on one town? Well its an outrage, isn't it? Are you going to tell me it was ok that NATO bombed Serbia because civilians get attacked in war? Thats what happens in wars, why should we complain?

Hmm I'm a selective justice supporter. I condemn NATO bombing of civilians in Serbia, I condemn Bosnian Serb attacking of civilians in Sarajevo. You condemn NATO bombadment, but tell me that the bombardment of Sarajevo is ok, because its war and oh because there was no ceasfire - LOL, that is a gem!
Damn it we deserved to be bombed in Belgrade because we didn't sign Rambouillet! My God, Zoran really...

On the other hand you know very well that I support all war crimes being brought to justice, but you lyingly accuse me of supporting selective justice. I can only think you tell such lies when I have been so consistent, to cover up your double standards when comparing NATO crimes to those of Bosnian Serb forces.

Predrag, thanks for giving me a 'real' reason for the bombardment of Sarajevo. But that isn't much of a reason either. It can't be the fault of the attacked for not retreating. The responsiblity for an attack lies with the ones doing the attacking. I mean is it the fault of those people at that market in Nis that they were killed by NATO. They should have stayed at home would be your argument, its absurd.

'The Bosnian Serb army had the power to wipe out all of Bosnia if they had chosen to do so.'

Right, I see, which is why they DIDN'T do that.

Mladic forces did what racial and religious fanatics always do and went too far. And it also turned out that the Serbian gunmen were not “crack” forces or “elite” troops at all, but a sordid militia with an unbroken record of victory against civilians. Moreover, Mladic was a director and organizer of the mass slaughters at Srebrenica and Zepa (as of the obscene bombardment of the open city of Sarajevo), and not a mere follower of orders. The monstrous character of Mladic and his movement needed no exaggeration. To this day, a lot of people do not understand how much misery and chaos and suffering it purposely inflicted. Srebrenica is one of the best-documented atrocities in modern history. We have everything, from real-time satellite surveillance (shamefully available to the United States even as the butchery was going on) to film and video taken by the perpetrators, including Mladic himself. The production of this material in court will, one hopes, wipe any potential grin from his face and destroy the propaganda image of the simple patriotic man at arms. Though there is something faintly satisfying about this clichéd outcome — the figure of energetic evil reduced to a husk of exhausted banality

Zoran, well if the accusation of Dutch gays in the substance of the article for defending Ratko Mladic it is scraping of the barrel. No question. If you don't believe it then why on earth post it?

At the same time you are obviously not capable of reading what I wrote. I was talking about Sarajevo, not Srebrenica. If you must answer questions put to somebody else then at least answer the right question.

So now that you have volunteered, don't be shy, (why) do you think that the bombardment of Sarajevo was justified and do you think that targetting civilians whether Bosnian Serb, Croat, Muslum was likely a war crime?
(bganon, 3 June 2011 15:16)
--
Oh dear, let me repeat, do you think I believe gay Dutch soldiers are responsible or that the US/NATO have looneys testifying to congress? No point going any further on that one.

And I did answer the right question, perhaps you didn't get it, which I can't understand how because it was repeated three times. Let me help :)

The reason Sarajevo was being attacked was because a ceasefire was not in place in *all* of BiH (that includes Sarajevo). The Serbians were attempting to get a ceasefire in *all* of BiH but that was constantly opposed. That is what the report from the Netherlands is stating. If there is no ceasefire then there are attacks. Pretty obvious isn't it? There was a war, that's what happens in wars and that is the justification.

What do you think, civilians don't get attacked? Please show me a war where civilians haven't been attacked. Do you think people don't take out revenge? It happens on all sides, in all wars and in fact, it is the nature of humans. Depending on the spin, some people call it a war crime while others call it collateral damage. The justification has many branches but it all leads to the same root, and that is *fear*.

Now the problem you have is that you are a selective justice supporter. You think it's fine to have show trials of one side but the other gets away with war crimes. You support a system that doesn't promote truth but rather revenge and hate. A system that forces people to lie and cover up crimes.

Now tell me honestly, has the NATO court helped the process of reconciliation or has it ensured the divisions remain strong and wide? Perhaps you can use the comments here as an indication?

Predrag,you should cope with the fact that your so called hero is detained at the Hague. For your own sake you should forget about Mladic and move on with your life.

It´s funny to see how the otporist narcissist Bganon´s self esteem heavily depends on the ratings she get´s from her pals on this site. If things not going her way she accuses every opponent of "manipulating"...

Forget about the 90´s and get yourself a life IRL Bganon, its 2011 now and Otpor is soooo out.

one thing's for sure. All the kooks will come out of the wood-work now.

If you give me your address, I will surely send you 3 tin foil hats. It looks like you need them badly.
(Jan Andersen (DK), 3 June 2011 18:46)

Rather try to buy hats for your dannish friends.It is summer and danes exposed to direct sunshine look like boiled crabs.

Zoran did you really post a link to a report saying that Dutch gays are responsible for Srebrenica?

Wow, talk about scraping the barrel...

Predrag, please explain to me how a man in charge of an army can be great and yet day in day out order attacks on civilians in a town (Sarajevo) for months and years. And please explain to me the purpose of those attacks bearing in mind that Bosnian Serb forces never made any serious attempt to take Sarajevo.

Morals and integrity is obviously something you are lacking if you think that attacks on civilians are justified.
(bganon, 3 June 2011 13:52)
--
Yes bganon, in case it wasn't obvious, I linked to a news article that reported the opinion of a US general and NATO commander. Please explain why I'm scraping the barrel? Do you think I believe gay Dutch soldiers are responsible or that the US/NATO have looneys testifying to the US congress? I'll let you figure that out.

Did you want an answer to your question to Predrag? Did you ever read the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation report on Srebrenica? It is very long actually(nearly 4000 pages) and admittedly I haven't read it in full but let me post some parts here. You can find the full report here -> http://www.srebrenica.nl/Pages/OOR/23/379.bGFuZz1OTA.html

I quote (starting at page 952. We are in March/April 1993):

Morillon's primary problem in the first phase was acquiring VRS cooperation in a ceasefire. The VRS did not want to consider the situation in Srebrenica separately from the situation in Bosnia as a whole. The Bosnian-Serb army had been trying to achieve a ceasefire for all of Bosnia since November 1992, but according to the VRS every agreement had not lasted long because of ABiH infractions.

The VRS attack on Srebrenica would stop - according to Milovanovic who was speaking for Mladic - as soon as the ABiH stopped its attack on Ilijas near Sarajevo and the offensive from Tuzla in the direction of Eastern Bosnia.

Four days later Mladic's deputy, General Gvero, repeated to Morillon that he was only willing to consider a ceasefire for all of Bosnia. He was opposed to 'tactical ceasefires for [the] convenience of [the] Muslims'.

The recurrent theme of the discussion was the Bosnian-Serb accusation emphasized by Mladic that the UN chose the side of the Bosnian Muslims and had no sympathy for the fate of the Serbian civilians in Muslim areas.
--
Lots of interesting reading. So far it demonstrates the UN and Muslims were in cahoots with each other using Bosnian Muslims as a sacrifice for NATO intervention.

"Where do you get your figures that Sarajevo has a 5% Serb population today? Actually I have a couple of Serb friends living in Sarajevo, they are able to live in their homes without problems so I'm not sure what you are talking about."
==================================

Ok so a couple of your friends living in Sarajevo makes more than 5%. Is this what you are trying to say?
Don't get off the track now. The discussion was about 5% Serbs living in Sarajevo and not whether your friends are living in peace or not.
So Bgannon, tell us, what is the percentage of Serbs living in Sarajevo and what was it before the war? You seem to know all the answers. I would love to hear from you how many Serbs live in Sarajevo today. Your own statistics.

Now I was born in Sarajevo and I have family there too. I can be just as expert as you then. I really don't know because we don't get into that. My family is struggling to survive there. Their problems are not how many Serbs are left but how they are going to survive at all.
I do know, however, that all the friends my parents had there are either gone from Sarajevo or dead. What are we going to conclude from this?

Predrag, a bit of logic please. Mladic is far from beeing a great man. Because of him, the war that could have finished in 1993 was prolonged to 1995. Serbs have suffered immensely because of him, and the 4000 Serbs killed around Srebrenica would be alive if he had accepted the agreement in 1993 toi end the war. Read a bit about this.

Just looked at Mladic's appearance at The Hague. During the reading of the indictment, at times I could see shame on his face for what has been done while he was commander in chief. I am anxious to hear him on all points of the indictment.

Just seen Col Bob Stuart have a bitch fit about Mladic on BBC News... it was rather amusing.

However I hope Mladic has a fair trial and pays for his crimes.

Just looked at Mladic's appearance at The Hague. During the reading of the indictment, at times I could see shame on his face for what has been done while he was commander in chief. I am anxious to hear him on all points of the indictment.
(LOGICAL, 3 June 2011 14:52)

You need your eyes checked. He had a stroke brought on by brain tumor not shame as you claim. He said he was proud of his work to defend his people.

"Now tell me honestly, has the NATO court helped the process of reconciliation or has it ensured the divisions remain strong and wide? Perhaps you can use the comments here as an indication?"
(Zoran, 3 June 2011 17:54)

Of course it has helped the process of reconciliation. As has the capture and trial of Karadzic. Maybe not for you but for others you don't know, Mladic is hated equally by Serbs I know and by Muslims I know. Both sides were happy. The comments here are a false indication, they cannot be used. Especially your comments cannot be used. According to your comments, gayness kills people.

Peggy it was Predrag that was quoting statistics I wanted to know what statistics they were and what year they were from - surely you can't disagree with that?

I don't have access to any population statistics beyond what you have access to, very likely if we were to look them up we would agree on a number. I suppose the only difficulty would be to work out in the past what percentage of 'Jugoslavs' were Serbs, Muslums etc. The reason why I brought up the topic is that it does seem as if Predrag is repeating a figure he heard somewhere. Far better to be specific if one is making a claim.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know that Sarajevo is suffering from severe problems, even though for some reason the official statistics show that the monthly wage of the average Bosanian is higher than the average Serbian wage.

If you have explanations / estimates then I'm all ears.

Zoran - what alternative was there, well call me old fashioned but if I was attacking a town as a general I would target military installations. Of course this is a tactic of war that has been seen before - although Sarajevo is considered the longest seige in modern history, but that doesn't mean that the murder of civilians is in any way acceptible.

'Now since we didn't accept that, well NATO bombed Serbia and as a consequence of war, civilians died'

Thats the most philosphical I've ever heard you on NATO. If I had said to you in this forum when talking about the murder of Serbian civlians 'war happens' you would have got extremely upset, so would I if somebody said that to me by the way. Usually you are foaming at the mouth on anything to do with NATO.

My point is that I've heard you condemn NATO any amount of times for killing civilians (and again rightly so) but you have never condemned the murder of civilians in Sarajevo mainly by Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslums.

I support all war crimes being tried in front of an impartial court. I don't believe in selective justice, never have. Thats clear.

'Who said it was OK to bomb Sarajevo?'
I condemn the bombardment of Sarajevo and Belgrade and the targetting of civilians in war. Do you?

Aleksandar Aleksic told the judges that he had informed his client about the indictment and that he was convinced that Mladic unerstood it.

Oh really? He understands the indictment? I seriously doubt that. The video footage posted by the Hague would lead one to belive that Mladic wasn't sure if he had even seen indictment -- let alone that he understood it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yKu0If_zk7I

Apparently he's had three strokes. His brain is toast. At the end of the hearing he told the judges, "I do not fear any journalists or any people or any nation or any ethnicity. I defended my people and my country, not Ratko Mladic. Now I am defending myself and I'm defending Ratko Mladic before you. Mr. Orie, I was treated with fairness and dignity except for the procedure and I have to say that that bothers me it really irritates me and when I see the balaclavas worn by those people I don't like that and I'd rather be killed by a policeman either here or in the United States or anywhere. If they were to kill me Ratko Mladic so that it can be reported in the press fine, but I can tell you I defended my country, I am Ratko Mladic. I did not kill Croats as Croats, and I'm not killing anyone either in Libya or in Africa. I was just defending my country... [microphone cut off by judge Orie]"

After seeing him today, it's obvious that he's mentally unable to recall what happened a couple days ago let alone details from the war 18 years ago. He can't defend himself. They shouldn't even bother with the trial under these circumstances. He may be physically present in the room, but his brain is clearly gone. Essentially, this amounts to a trial in absentia.

(bganon, 3 June 2011 19:07)
Zoran I see, so Sarajevo was bombarded because there was no peace agreement in place? Thats a weighty argument. Belgrade was bombarded because there was no agreement with NATO in place. Poor NATO, its the fault of the fact there was no agreement!
--
Of course that is the case. Why do you think people/nations go to war? Because they agree or disagree? Please come out of the clouds.
==
Of course civilians get attacked, but day in day out for months and years on end on one town? Well its an outrage, isn't it? Are you going to tell me it was ok that NATO bombed Serbia because civilians get attacked in war? Thats what happens in wars, why should we complain?
--
Laying siege is a military tactic. Not a very nice one but there was war. What alternative was there? Overrun Sarajevo, displace everyone and have a humanitarian catastrophe? Remember, it has already been acknowledged that Serbians were seeking a ceasefire for the whole of BiH. If the other side was concerned for lives then why didn't they agree? They only wanted to do what benefited their position - winning control over BiH and since they couldn't do it themselves they needed NATO to intervene, which could only be done if there was a humanitarian catastrophe.

Your question about NATO does not make sense. My point is that NATO bombed Serbia because we did not agree with them (i.e. give KiM independence and have all of Serbia occupied by NATO). Now since we didn't accept that, well NATO bombed Serbia and as a consequence of war, civilians died. NATO killed thousands of civilians, Serbians, Albanians and others. They called it collateral damage while others call it a war crime. In fact, without a UN mandate and since you are so into law and "justice", it was an illegal attack.
==
Hmm I'm a selective justice supporter. I condemn NATO bombing of civilians in Serbia, I condemn Bosnian Serb attacking of civilians in Sarajevo. You condemn NATO bombadment, but tell me that the bombardment of Sarajevo is ok, because its war and oh because there was no ceasfire - LOL, that is a gem!
Damn it we deserved to be bombed in Belgrade because we didn't sign Rambouillet! My God, Zoran really...
--
Please tell me, are you feeling dizzy with the spin going on in your head? Who said it was OK to bomb Sarajevo? I am saying that is a consequence of war. Bombings happen in wars, civilians die in wars. Isn't that obvious? War is evil and when it starts, the cycle of violence begins. Cause and effect, you hurt me and I'll hurt you. You kill my family and I'll kill yours. What about all of the Serbian civilians that died in that war. Sounds like you don't give a damn because the western media didn't care either. That is why you are a selective justice supporter. You talk about Sarajevo only. The West reported about BiH civilians only because they needed sympathy to justify NATO action.

Why was war started in the first place? At the time Germany was blamed for premature recognition but since Germany is in the west and a NATO member, it couldn't be blamed for long. That's why they blamed Milosevic, to hide their own failings.
==
On the other hand you know very well that I support all war crimes being brought to justice, but you lyingly accuse me of supporting selective justice. I can only think you tell such lies when I have been so consistent, to cover up your double standards when comparing NATO crimes to those of Bosnian Serb forces.
--
Sorry, you are a selective justice supporter. You have admitted yourself that delays in Seselj's case are intentional to keep him out of Serbian politics. You justify that in your own mind, because you hate him, but that proves the NATO court is political. You only have to check the statistics to see the bias against Serbians and anyone who knows this and still supports it also supports selective justice.

You, roberto, Top, Nenad, Bob and many others here are selective justice supporters. I can assure you, that will keep divisions open for much longer than necessary.

Zoran, as much as I agree with you on many of your points, there is no point in debating with certain liberal types who have commented here. You could produce the best evidence to them and they would choose to ignore it. It comes from people who probably had they been caught up in the war they would have cowardly ran away. The situation they now find themselves in is that they are deluded by the whole EU dream, and so selfishly would betray any man who had the guts to fight for their people. In Britain where I live that is what is missing from this country, a bit of good old patriotism, and as a Serb I recieve all kinds of comments from English people and other westerners about Balkan affairs, who feel qualified to comment on such issues where they lack the knowledge, their knowledge is limited to what they watch on the evening news and I get the impresseion that many comments here are of the same nature.

This comment provides some additional explanation for those who may not have detected the subtle aspects of the alleged Mladic Hospital Treatments, and the alleged Hospital Records.

The first thing to know is that any Lawyer even with below average Intelligence would know that the only thing that would have prevented General Ratko Mladic from going to The Hague was if he was dead.

It is interesting how this man that allegedly phoned General Ratko Mladic’s Lawyer was probably looking for Money if the phone call took place.

General Ratko Mladic’s Lawyer should have contacted the Police, and had the man questioned and probably charged with Stealing Hospital Records.

The other thing that is suspicious is that the current Serbian Puppet Government wanted to make it look like they helped General Ratko Mladic, and so there was no way they could ever have betrayed him.

It would be interesting to know what Mladic says, but we have no way to know if he will tell the truth or tell a lie about attending the Hospital for treatment.

The Serbian Government says that they will investigate it, but these investigations will want to portray themselves as Patriots, even if the are Subservient to the EU as most people think.

It seems just so convenient that Hospital Records are produced or faked, but not destroyed during the Presence of the current Serbian Government, and I wonder if Mladic will say either truthfully or falsely that he attended that Hospital for treatment in 2009.

Another reason is that the Serbian Government may have wanted to Deliberately be stained with allegation that they are Protecting War Criminals and Butchers. If the Serbian Government is a Puppet, then it only wants the Portrayal of the Serbian People the way NATO wants it, because they want to give up Kosovo to join the European Union.

There was plenty of time to ask General Ratko Mladic if he had attended that Hospital for Treatment in 2009, and his Lawyers can ask him to answer that Question and give us his reply.

Perhaps the Serbian Government and their Foreign Overlords need to infer that General Ratkjo Mladic is a Liar, because they do not want his Testimony to be accepted at The Hague.

The European Union Foreign Affairs Representative Catherine Ashton said that having been briefed on the details of the capture, she was certain that the fact that the arrest operation took place on the day of her visit to Belgrade was pUrE cOiNcIdEnCe.

There are of course other pure conveniences at work here, but I thought that I would mention those that I am aware of.

It is clear who the perpetrators and who the victims were during the Bosnian war. And Mladic won't change this verdict. He will only permit the ICTY to show the world and the Serbs who really Mladic is: not a hero but a psychopath killer. Just as Goran Jelisic, commander at the Brcko Camp, who called himself, with pride, the «Serb Adolf». As Mladic was proud to be called the «Serb Napoleon».

This selection of pictures should be presented on Serb TV 24 hours every day to show the Serbs what was achieved in their name.

@Yet Another J S

If you give me your address, I will surely send you 3 tin foil hats. It looks like you need them badly.

--To this day, a lot of people do not understand how much misery and chaos and suffering it purposely inflicted. Srebrenica is one of the best-documented atrocities in modern history. We have everything, from real-time satellite surveillance (shamefully available to the United States even as the butchery was going on) to film and video taken by the perpetrators, including Mladic himself. The production of this material in court will, one hopes, wipe any potential grin from his face and destroy the propaganda image of the simple patriotic man at arms. Though there is something faintly satisfying about this clichéd outcome — the figure of energetic evil reduced to a husk of exhausted banality
(The Truth Chicago, 3 June 2011 15:54)--


this man really was, and is a monster -- that's not an overstatement. The whole issue of "banality" -- commonplace, trite? that's what hannah arendt said of eichmann: the banality of evil. I don't see banal, but i sure as hell see evil.

i thought about eichmann when mladic was "found" (when they stopped harboring him); eichmann was on the run for 15 years, and also protected by special interests. he was responsible for the rounding up and murdering of at least 100's of thousands of civilians, mainly jews, and he worked with a vengeance. mladic was very similar, but in a different terrain, focused mainly on non-serbs. though some serb civilians were also killed in the serb-led bombardments, siege, snipers, etc.

eichmannn was tried in jerusalem, found guilty and executed in 1962, which i actually remember. it was quite the news story back then. i sincerely believe the same should happen with mladic and karadzic in the hague, but they're too "civilized."

the other and obvious disturbing phenomenon is the great and widespread support for mladic carried on (here and elsewhere) by many serbian extreme nationalists. not all serbs! but way too many. "noz, zica, srebrenica!" Knife -- wire -- Srebrenica. can you imagine?! and this is supposed to be considered part of the normal discourse. and can you imagine what all of serbia's (non-serb) neighbors are thinking: mladic harbored for 16 years, and then when he is FINALLY picked up and extradited, 1,000s and thousands of serbs, in serbia, in "RS" and showing their support for him; laughing in the face of genocide.but at least they are "honest." we know what they are thinking, wishing...

tung. roberto frisco

Isn't it amazing how his arm seemed to gradually get better during the session!

Also, wasn't it condescending of him to show a 'little person' sign to the woman who made a sign to cut his throat?

I think his pompous reaction shows that there is more than enough mental capacity for him to be able to be tried, and quite likely enough stupidity in the man that he will condemn himself by just the things he says during the trial.

I am glad he is in the Hague, but I have to say that I am already getting bored with seeing him - I do not intend giving it so much attention from now on.

As for him defending Serbia? What nonsense. NO THANKS. Serbia does not need his type of person and never did. Serbia deserves better than that - it does not have to be loyal to murderers like him or to his supporters.

According to your comments, gayness kills people.
(KU, 3 June 2011 20:00)
--
Wrong again. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. That came from a US general and NATO commander testifying to congress. I didn't say it.

Of course it has helped the process of reconciliation. As has the capture and trial of Karadzic. Maybe not for you but for others you don't know, Mladic is hated equally by Serbs I know and by Muslims I know.
(KU, 3 June 2011 20:00)
--
You talk about helping the process of reconciliation but then say Mladic is hated equally. Well, as I mentioned, it is the selective justice process that promotes hate and not reconciliation. If we followed the path of truth and reconciliation then we would be talking about truth, forgiveness and remorse but not hate.

Time is a natural healer, which is assisted by truth whereas hate (fear) slows it down.

Mladic is a HERO, pure and simple!
It was sad and infuriating to see such a great man, in his twilight years humiliated on international TV!
It’s totally insane to accuse Mladic, who was defending his homeland and people from slaughter at the hands of blood thirsty murderers and Islamic terrorists as a criminal!

The so called, international war crimes tribunal in the Hague has proven time and time again that it is nothing more than a Kangaroo court!
It lacks any kind or legitimacy or moral credibility!
It is total insult to fairness and justice!

The real criminals are Clinton, Blair, Albright, Clark and Bush and yet, these creatures are conveniently immune from prosecution!
Only in a sick and corrupt world can these heinous individuals go around killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people through bombings and sanctions and have the audacity to say that they are spreading freedom and democracy!
This kind of reality only exists in the mind of a schizophrenic!

Mladic is a great man!
He is a man of morals and integrity!
A quality that is totally lacking and foreign to the "Hague"
Despite of his ailing health and their shameful attempts at public humiliation, Mladic will stand tall.
After all, he has faced and survived far, far worse!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 12:44)


He was not a hero, not at all. Also if he was defending his homeland why would he have unarmed boys and old men killed? Why would he shell towns and cities where women and children were killed? Why would he have snipers shooting at unarmed civilians? Why would he have people beheaded? We would he forcibly remove people from their homes? Why would he have UN peacekeepers taken hostage? What is heroic about any of this? This goes far beyond defending your homeland. Where were Mladic's morals when this happened?

Many Bosnian Serbs were just defending their homeland during the Bosnia War, however Mladic was not one of these people. Unfortunately the likes of Mladic have given many honourable brave Bosnian Serbs who were just defending their homelands a bad name. I think that is a shame. War Crimes were committed by all parties in the Yugoslav Wars, if you have committed a war crime then you deserved to be tried; regardless if you're a Bosniak, Croat or a Serb. No-one is above the law.

However where I will agree with you is that I too would like to see Blair and Bush in the Hague for War Crimes.

(bganon, 4 June 2011 14:33)
Zoran - what alternative was there, well call me old fashioned but if I was attacking a town as a general I would target military installations. Of course this is a tactic of war that has been seen before - although Sarajevo is considered the longest seige in modern history, but that doesn't mean that the murder of civilians is in any way acceptible.
--
Unfortunately civilians are targeted in war by accident and intentionally. It is done for revenge, used to instil fear and pressure a population. NATO does it, the Israeli forces do it as well as all sides in the Balkan conflicts.

While Sarajevo may have been under siege it also had supplies coming in so presumably it wasn't the most severe siege in modern history. I suspect the tactic there was to hold down a large number of Muslim fighters.
==
'Now since we didn't accept that, well NATO bombed Serbia and as a consequence of war, civilians died'

Thats the most philosphical I've ever heard you on NATO. If I had said to you in this forum when talking about the murder of Serbian civlians 'war happens' you would have got extremely upset, so would I if somebody said that to me by the way. Usually you are foaming at the mouth on anything to do with NATO.
--
Yes, I am against NATO (obviously) but first and foremost I am against war. Unfortunately it seems the West is now entering a perpetual state of war and I can't see it getting better any time soon.
==
My point is that I've heard you condemn NATO any amount of times for killing civilians (and again rightly so) but you have never condemned the murder of civilians in Sarajevo mainly by Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslums.

I support all war crimes being tried in front of an impartial court. I don't believe in selective justice, never have. Thats clear.
--
The NATO court is not impartial but you support Mladic being there.
==
'Who said it was OK to bomb Sarajevo?'
I condemn the bombardment of Sarajevo and Belgrade and the targetting of civilians in war. Do you?
--
LOL, did you need permission from your employer to write that?

So you've never heard me condemn the bombing of Sarajevo? Well, why should I? We have heard an unfair amount of press coverage regarding the Bosnian Muslim side but very little condemnation of crimes committed against Serbians. It is time for some balance and for the whole truth to be heard, not just selective stories that suit geopolitical agendas.

Now, back to your question, I have on numerous occasions condemned *all* crimes committed by *all* sides and condemned the killing of all innocent civilians in the Balkans and around the world. Why is Sarajevo or Belgrade more important than Baghdad, Palestine or even Tripoli?

Now who are the war mongers in this world? Who is starting all of these wars? Who is responsible for this mess?

"This was a "WAR" and in wars, civilians die! "

Therefore, targeting civilians is moral and just.

Mladic is not humilated by anything how can he be when he does not recognize the Hague the humilated people are the serbian government and people they threw him to the wolves and the world sees that. this is not about justice this all poltics serbs want in the EU Bosnian muslims want Bosnia KLA want Kosovo. Mladic is not about these games he is a man of action uncomfortable in the Hague of course he is not A MAN OF POLTICS BUT A MAN WHO STOOD TO PROTECT HIS PEOPLE AND HE IS PAYING FOR THAT THIS THE LESSON FOR SERBIA WHO WILL STAND FOR SERBS AGAIN WHEN THIS IS THE CONSEQUENCE.

According to this US general and former NATO commander, he knows who is responsible for Srebrenica.
(Zoran, 3 June 2011 11:34)

Yeah, exactly, the Serbs. As the General said, they "marched the Muslims off and executed them"

Lets be clear here.
This was a "WAR" and in wars, civilians die!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Yes, but they have to die in accordance with the rules of the war. If they don’t die in accordance with those rules, the ones who killed them, go to trial. War has rules; we are not in medieval times.



You just need to look at the heroic actions by the US and the UK to see that they have no issues with bombing innocent civilians, all in the name of freedom and democracy!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Bombing innocent civilians is not always a war crime. You need to put some additional elements to make it a crime.



Secondly:
It was the Muslims who refused to allow the civilian population of Sarajevo to leave the city, under the pretence that they were saving it from ethnic cleansing!
I have a feeling that the civilian population would have view it differently!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

That is immaterial for the criminal responsibility of those who were bombing.



Thirdly:
Lets not forget that there was a large Serbian population in Sarajevo who were also being targeted by Muslim snipers, so please, lets not be so naive and simplistic as to believe that this was a war of good and evil.
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Sure, they should go to trial as well if the facts are as you say.



Mladic did not extend the war.
The Bosnian Serb army had the power to wipe out all of Bosnia if they had chosen to do so.
It was NATO who was insisting on arming and supplying the Muslim terrorists that prolonged the conflict!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Oh yeah, I see it now… Bosnia’s muslims are still there due to the magnanimity and mercy of Mladic (because he chose not to wipe them out)

Dude do you understand what you are saying ?! Your saying if somebody tries to kill you, don't resist otherwise you'll prolong the fight for your life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1



And one final note.
The Bosnian Muslims were often accused by the peace keepers of shelling their own people to gain attention and manipulate the world media in order to gain sympathy and NATO intervention.
Even the bombing in the Sarajevo market place was highly disputed!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Whoever did it should be prosecuted if the facts are as you say.



I stand by my original post
Mladic was a hero.
He was defending HIS LAND and HIS PEOPLE from extermination!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Of course, your hero… But he is also an alleged international criminal as indicted by a tribunal set up by Russia, China, US, UK, France and other states.

«After seeing him today, it's obvious that he's mentally ...»

At least ke nows that he is GENERAL Ratko Mladic and that he is well known worldwide, just as Michael Jackson and the Beatles.

He remembers quite well what happened and he will tell the tribunal.

Yes RSA we do remember Jugoslavija, but come on, it can never be like that again. Ok this 'communism' kept people together, but only with an iron fist dictatorship, the reason why the war was so bad was because the true feelings of people were released when they had the chance. We cannot live together, the real bitterness was due to what the Croats and Muslims did to the Serbs in WWII. Serbs cannot forgive people who dont apologise so there is nobody Serbs can forgive, why is it always Serbs that have to apologise? As is the Serbs are the only criminals, give me a break.

Is not it unjust and preposterous to see the generals of the defeated armies always before war crime tribunals? The winner is always pardoned some will agree and justify.

But if any court assumes to be the servant of law (such as the ICJ), how is it that it allows this to happen?

For instance, the support given to the many rebels in the Balkans, which the Balkan suffers from, and their foreign German & American instructors…do you, the reader, psychologically understand where they are right now, right in this instance?

Do you like the less equal people in this world think that… that is where they should be (!)?

You know, they have also killed many innocent people, often out of inner physiological urgers, mostly very brutally and but also because of evilness that was blown into their minds, by psychopath instructors.

Think about how just this approach and those who adopt it is.
This is how I will remember all this.
How will you remember all this, my friend?

Thank you,
D.Parmenion from the Republic of Macedonia, Bratindol.
For the less equal: D.Parmenion from god knows where.

The NATO court is not impartial but you support Mladic being there.
(Zoran, 4 June 2011 18:58)

First, it is not a NATO court because Russia and China are not part of Nato (as far as I know, at least, but you can illuminate us if you know otherwise).


Second, do you have any evidence that the court is not impartial ?

None of this would be necessary if all the nations of the former Jugoslavia just accepted each others differences and lived together as you did before all the nationalistic idiocy took hold. Does no one remember Jugoslavia??

According to Zoran's logic, no court is impartial:

The Hague is 'biased' because there are more Serbs accused and convicted thatn other.

Probably US courts are not impartial, because more black people are sent to prison than white people.

And, in general, no court in the world is impartial, because most accused criminals are male. What a bias, what a discrimination!!!

Mladic is a HERO, pure and simple!
It was sad and infuriating to see such a great man, in his twilight years humiliated on international TV!
It’s totally insane to accuse Mladic, who was defending his homeland and people from slaughter at the hands of blood thirsty murderers and Islamic terrorists as a criminal!

The so called, international war crimes tribunal in the Hague has proven time and time again that it is nothing more than a Kangaroo court!
It lacks any kind or legitimacy or moral credibility!
It is total insult to fairness and justice!

The real criminals are Clinton, Blair, Albright, Clark and Bush and yet, these creatures are conveniently immune from prosecution!
Only in a sick and corrupt world can these heinous individuals go around killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people through bombings and sanctions and have the audacity to say that they are spreading freedom and democracy!
This kind of reality only exists in the mind of a schizophrenic!

Mladic is a great man!
He is a man of morals and integrity!
A quality that is totally lacking and foreign to the "Hague"
Despite of his ailing health and their shameful attempts at public humiliation, Mladic will stand tall.
After all, he has faced and survived far, far worse!

Zoran did you really post a link to a report saying that Dutch gays are responsible for Srebrenica?

Wow, talk about scraping the barrel...

Predrag, please explain to me how a man in charge of an army can be great and yet day in day out order attacks on civilians in a town (Sarajevo) for months and years. And please explain to me the purpose of those attacks bearing in mind that Bosnian Serb forces never made any serious attempt to take Sarajevo.

Morals and integrity is obviously something you are lacking if you think that attacks on civilians are justified.

bganon,
Listen troll, I have better things to do with my time than manipulate vote counts. that is something you and your albanian friends do all day, since you have nothing better to do. I take pleasure in dismantling your illogical arguments, for which you seem to have no intelligent response, only name calling.
Cheers!

I'm sure that Predrag is quite capable of answering why he believes a man that bombs civilians is a hero.
(bganon, 3 June 2011 15:16)

Lets be clear here.
This was a "WAR" and in wars, civilians die!
You just need to look at the heroic actions by the US and the UK to see that they have no issues with bombing innocent civilians, all in the name of freedom and democracy!

Secondly:
It was the Muslims who refused to allow the civilian population of Sarajevo to leave the city, under the pretence that they were saving it from ethnic cleansing!
I have a feeling that the civilian population would have view it differently!

Journalists from CNN, BBC etc were all free to come and go into this human zoo and stay at the Holiday Inn, whilst the innocent civilians were far more useful as targets, human shields and propaganda tools all for the convenience of the hungry western media.

Thirdly:
Lets not forget that there was a large Serbian population in Sarajevo who were also being targeted by Muslim snipers, so please, lets not be so naive and simplistic as to believe that this was a war of good and evil.

Mladic did not extend the war.
The Bosnian Serb army had the power to wipe out all of Bosnia if they had chosen to do so.
It was NATO who was insisting on arming and supplying the Muslim terrorists that prolonged the conflict!

And one final note.
The Bosnian Muslims were often accused by the peace keepers of shelling their own people to gain attention and manipulate the world media in order to gain sympathy and NATO intervention.
Even the bombing in the Sarajevo market place was highly disputed!

I stand by my original post
Mladic was a hero.
He was defending HIS LAND and HIS PEOPLE from extermination!

Mladic did not want the judges to read the indictment. Me Mladic has to understand that he is not the one who gives the orders now.

Predrag you are using tired arguments. Because one time in history Serbs accounted for 40% of the population that justifies bombing it? I mean what you think its like some recipie for a dish which means that Serbs should have got 40% of the cake of Sarajevo?

Newsflash, they were bombing more than 40% of Sarajevo. And how about some sources and dates for your figures - that 40% is referring to 1921 right? Why the hell 1921??? Half of Sarajevo was in Serbian control you say, when was that exactly?

If you are talking about ordinary Serbs living in Sarajevo trying to defend their rights you would be right, but we are not talking about them, we are talking about the Bosnian Serbs bombing everybody from the safety of the hills. Takes some guts to do that! And just because I'm critical of them does not mean that ordinary Serbs, Muslums and Croats don't have the right to live in peace. I criticise any force that attacks civilians. My cousin took part in the bombardment of Sarajevo, he is from Travnik. He was conscripted and had to fight, but at the time we argued about it. These days he doesn't believe in what he did, but I tell him that at least he had no choice, so to not be hard on himself.

Where do you get your figures that Sarajevo has a 5% Serb population today? Actually I have a couple of Serb friends living in Sarajevo, they are able to live in their homes without problems so I'm not sure what you are talking about. Sarajevo is much better than most places in Bosnia where many villages have been cleansed of one nationality or the other, but Sarajevo was bombed the most. In fact its not Sarajevans (and it never was) who spread the most hate in Bosnia, it was invariably people that came from outside Sarajevo that caused the problems.

Zoran, well if the accusation of Dutch gays in the substance of the article for defending Ratko Mladic it is scraping of the barrel. No question. If you don't believe it then why on earth post it?

Equally I'm sure that Predrag is quite capable of answering why he believes a man that bombs civilians is a hero.

At the same time you are obviously not capable of reading what I wrote. I was talking about Sarajevo, not Srebrenica. If you must answer questions put to somebody else then at least answer the right question.

So now that you have volunteered, don't be shy, (why) do you think that the bombardment of Sarajevo was justified and do you think that targetting civilians whether Bosnian Serb, Croat, Muslum was likely a war crime?

Of course I don't really expect to get a straight answer from you. More likely you will do your usual cocking a deaf 'un, or hide behind somebody else's opinion.

And yet you will state an opinion for NATO attacks on civilians as a war crime (and rightly so). Smells a bit like hypocricy.

Zoran don't bother trying to use logic with bganon. The fact that muslims inside Sarajevo were firing at Serbs from beside hospitals, schools, hotels...which Lewis MacKenzie and many other UN Generals confirmed, in order to draw return fire and blame the Serbs for 'shelling civilians', fall deaf on the ears of brainwashed otporists like bganon.

Long live General Mladic! If it was not for him there would be no Serbs in Bosnia now. Generale Republika te voli.

It is alleged that former Bosnian Serb Army commander General Ratko Mladic was treated at a Belgrade hospital two years ago,

General Mladic’s Lawyer showed the Associated Press news agency a document purportedly showing General Mladic that his client underwent surgery and chemotherapy; however, the authenticity of the document cannot be checked.

Serbian Defence Minister Dragan Sutanovac said: “I really do not believe in that story, but we will investigate it.”

General Mladic’s Lawyer told the Media that he had only been sent the hospital document on Monday, a day before General Mladic was flown out to the Netherlands.

General Mladic’s Lawyer alleges that a man called him on the phone, asking if he was interested in a document that could prevent Ratko Mladic’s extradition to The Hague.

General Mladic’s arrest is considered Crucial to the Serbian Government plans to Recognize an Independent Kosovo, under the guise of joining the European Union, and was planned after the Puppet Serbian Government stole the last Election.

America, and the Leading European Union Countries, along with a Compliant Serbian Government want to give the World the notion that the Serbs are such bad People, and because of that lie, the Kosovo Albanians deserve to be Independent.

America and the European Union have installed their Preferred Clients in the Serbian Government, and they are following the Script to convince or pressure the Serbian People to give up Kosovo.

The scheme of the Anglo-American Empire is to try to convince the Serbian People that they are so bad, that if they only give up Kosovo, then they could possibly even begin to make slight amends.

I believe that it is possible that Mladic is a Secret Muslim Modern Day Janissary who was, and who continues to Secretly work for a Foreign Government.

It seems just so convenient that Hospital Records are produced or faked, but not destroyed during the Presence of the current Serbian Government, and I wonder if Mladic will say either truthfully of falsely that he attended that Hospital for treatment in 2009.

Speak up President Boris Tadic, and speak Up you Serbian Parliamentarians, and tell the World the True Facts.

We know that the current Serbian President is from Sarajevo, the Capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is also known as Janissary City to some People.

I am sure that Mladic will find much to squeal about.

Squealing is all that is left him really. A hobby to keep him entertained for the rest of his life.

The trial will be fair, but he will play silly games to delay it and to try to impress his diminishing band of supporters.

He would be a better man if he would at least show some contrition - but don't wait for it, because it won't happen.

"Predrag, thanks for giving me a 'real' reason for the bombardment of Sarajevo. But that isn't much of a reason either. It can't be the fault of the attacked for not retreating. The responsiblity for an attack lies with the ones doing the attacking. I mean is it the fault of those people at that market in Nis that they were killed by NATO. They should have stayed at home would be your argument, its absurd.
'The Bosnian Serb army had the power to wipe out all of Bosnia if they had chosen to do so.'
Right, I see, which is why they DIDN'T do that.
(bganon, 3 June 2011 19:07)"

Your missing the point here.
Sarajevo was not a Muslim town that was invaded by Serbs.
Serbs made up about 40% of the population.
This was their city, just as much as it was Muslim.
Almost half of Sarajevo was in Serbian control. They were not attacking, they were defending their homes!
Just because the Serbs had bigger guns doesn't mean their cause was not justified, or their right to live in their own homes is somehow mean to be an act of genocide!
Today Sarajevo has a 5% Serbian population.
So you tell me, who were the ones that were ethnically cleansed?
Where are the rights of the Serbian population who are now unable to live in their own homes because of Islamic aggression?

As for cease fires, they were broken by the Muslims just as often as they were broken by the Serbs.

And yes, in the beginning of the war the Serbs had the fire power to level Bosnia, But that was not their intention.
If it wasnt for the interference of NATO who were supplying the Muslims and Croats as well as bombing the Serbs, the war would have ended much, much sooner

Mladić is facing 11 counts of genocide, crimes against humanity and other war crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1992 until 1995.
--
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7478738/Gay-Dutch-soldiers-responsible-for-Srebrenica-massacre-says-US-general.html

According to this US general and former NATO commander, he knows who is responsible for Srebrenica.

I took the time to listen to the tribunal hearing and I have to admit that Mladic is not a well man, but hey why have that come in the way of a good show trial. Mladic has nothing to answer for but the fact that he was smarter than all the western windbags put together. For those doubters have a good look at your political and military leadership from the west and tell me who would you say is not only a patriot but would not sell his people short. No such creature exists in the land of Oz– they would sell you and your loved ones quicker than you can say New York.
Mladic loves his people and they will sing songs about him but who will sing about Bill Clinton or Wesley Clarke. Not even their grandchildren; in one generation they will disappear from collective memory.
Mladic can barely speak but the show must go on to prove to the world that the US and their crawlers were right. Little wonder the west is despised.

This comment provides some additional explanation for those who may not have detected the subtle aspects of the alleged Mladic Hospital Treatments, and the alleged Hospital Records.

The first thing to know is that any Lawyer even with below average Intelligence would know that the only thing that would have prevented General Ratko Mladic from going to The Hague was if he was dead.

It is interesting how this man that allegedly phoned General Ratko Mladic’s Lawyer was probably looking for Money if the phone call took place.

General Ratko Mladic’s Lawyer should have contacted the Police, and had the man questioned and probably charged with Stealing Hospital Records.

The other thing that is suspicious is that the current Serbian Puppet Government wanted to make it look like they helped General Ratko Mladic, and so there was no way they could ever have betrayed him.

It would be interesting to know what Mladic says, but we have no way to know if he will tell the truth or tell a lie about attending the Hospital for treatment.

The Serbian Government says that they will investigate it, but these investigations will want to portray themselves as Patriots, even if the are Subservient to the EU as most people think.

It seems just so convenient that Hospital Records are produced or faked, but not destroyed during the Presence of the current Serbian Government, and I wonder if Mladic will say either truthfully or falsely that he attended that Hospital for treatment in 2009.

Another reason is that the Serbian Government may have wanted to Deliberately be stained with allegation that they are Protecting War Criminals and Butchers. If the Serbian Government is a Puppet, then it only wants the Portrayal of the Serbian People the way NATO wants it, because they want to give up Kosovo to join the European Union.

There was plenty of time to ask General Ratko Mladic if he had attended that Hospital for Treatment in 2009, and his Lawyers can ask him to answer that Question and give us his reply.

Perhaps the Serbian Government and their Foreign Overlords need to infer that General Ratkjo Mladic is a Liar, because they do not want his Testimony to be accepted at The Hague.

The European Union Foreign Affairs Representative Catherine Ashton said that having been briefed on the details of the capture, she was certain that the fact that the arrest operation took place on the day of her visit to Belgrade was pUrE cOiNcIdEnCe.

There are of course other pure conveniences at work here, but I thought that I would mention those that I am aware of.

Serbs have suffered immensely because of him, and the 4000 Serbs killed around Srebrenica would be alive if he had accepted the agreement in 1993 toi end the war. Read a bit about this.
(LOGICAL, 3 June 2011 13:59)
--
I am reading about it in the NIOD Institute report http://www.srebrenica.nl/Pages/OOR/23/379.bGFuZz1OTA.html but this wasn't reported by CNN and BBC. They had another agenda.
==
On 6 May Muslim fighters from Srebrenica launched a counterattack on the Serbs in this town. Goran Zekic was murdered on 8 May 1992. The Serbs allege that this was the work of a Muslim police officer in Srebrenica, Hakija Meholjic. This murder heralded the exodus of Serbs from Srebrenica, an event that was observed to occur on numerous occasions in the Bosnian conflict following the death of a prominent local figure. This exodus received added impetus in the form of two other Muslims, Naser Oric and Zulfo Tursonovic, who had assumed the role of commanders and who began to attack surrounding villages inhabited by Serbs and then advanced on Srebrenica.

Overall, Muslim fighters from Srebrenica attacked 79 Serbian places in the districts of Srebrenica and Bratunac. They followed a certain pattern. Initially, Serbs were driven out of ethnically mixed towns. Then Serbian hamlets surrounded by Muslim towns were attacked and finally the remaining Serbian settlements were overrun. The residents were murdered, their homes were plundered and burnt down or blown up. There was a preference to launch these attacks on Serbian public holidays (those of Saint Joris, Saint Vitus and the Blessed Peter, and Christmas Day), probably because least resistance was expected. Yet it simultaneously contributed to the development of profound Serbian grievances. Many of these attacks were bloody in nature. For example, the victims had their throats slit, they were assaulted with pitchforks or they were set on fire.

Zoran, well if the accusation of Dutch gays in the substance of the article for defending Ratko Mladic it is scraping of the barrel. No question. If you don't believe it then why on earth post it?

At the same time you are obviously not capable of reading what I wrote. I was talking about Sarajevo, not Srebrenica. If you must answer questions put to somebody else then at least answer the right question.

So now that you have volunteered, don't be shy, (why) do you think that the bombardment of Sarajevo was justified and do you think that targetting civilians whether Bosnian Serb, Croat, Muslum was likely a war crime?
(bganon, 3 June 2011 15:16)
--
Oh dear, let me repeat, do you think I believe gay Dutch soldiers are responsible or that the US/NATO have looneys testifying to congress? No point going any further on that one.

And I did answer the right question, perhaps you didn't get it, which I can't understand how because it was repeated three times. Let me help :)

The reason Sarajevo was being attacked was because a ceasefire was not in place in *all* of BiH (that includes Sarajevo). The Serbians were attempting to get a ceasefire in *all* of BiH but that was constantly opposed. That is what the report from the Netherlands is stating. If there is no ceasefire then there are attacks. Pretty obvious isn't it? There was a war, that's what happens in wars and that is the justification.

What do you think, civilians don't get attacked? Please show me a war where civilians haven't been attacked. Do you think people don't take out revenge? It happens on all sides, in all wars and in fact, it is the nature of humans. Depending on the spin, some people call it a war crime while others call it collateral damage. The justification has many branches but it all leads to the same root, and that is *fear*.

Now the problem you have is that you are a selective justice supporter. You think it's fine to have show trials of one side but the other gets away with war crimes. You support a system that doesn't promote truth but rather revenge and hate. A system that forces people to lie and cover up crimes.

Now tell me honestly, has the NATO court helped the process of reconciliation or has it ensured the divisions remain strong and wide? Perhaps you can use the comments here as an indication?

Zoran did you really post a link to a report saying that Dutch gays are responsible for Srebrenica?

Wow, talk about scraping the barrel...

Predrag, please explain to me how a man in charge of an army can be great and yet day in day out order attacks on civilians in a town (Sarajevo) for months and years. And please explain to me the purpose of those attacks bearing in mind that Bosnian Serb forces never made any serious attempt to take Sarajevo.

Morals and integrity is obviously something you are lacking if you think that attacks on civilians are justified.
(bganon, 3 June 2011 13:52)
--
Yes bganon, in case it wasn't obvious, I linked to a news article that reported the opinion of a US general and NATO commander. Please explain why I'm scraping the barrel? Do you think I believe gay Dutch soldiers are responsible or that the US/NATO have looneys testifying to the US congress? I'll let you figure that out.

Did you want an answer to your question to Predrag? Did you ever read the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation report on Srebrenica? It is very long actually(nearly 4000 pages) and admittedly I haven't read it in full but let me post some parts here. You can find the full report here -> http://www.srebrenica.nl/Pages/OOR/23/379.bGFuZz1OTA.html

I quote (starting at page 952. We are in March/April 1993):

Morillon's primary problem in the first phase was acquiring VRS cooperation in a ceasefire. The VRS did not want to consider the situation in Srebrenica separately from the situation in Bosnia as a whole. The Bosnian-Serb army had been trying to achieve a ceasefire for all of Bosnia since November 1992, but according to the VRS every agreement had not lasted long because of ABiH infractions.

The VRS attack on Srebrenica would stop - according to Milovanovic who was speaking for Mladic - as soon as the ABiH stopped its attack on Ilijas near Sarajevo and the offensive from Tuzla in the direction of Eastern Bosnia.

Four days later Mladic's deputy, General Gvero, repeated to Morillon that he was only willing to consider a ceasefire for all of Bosnia. He was opposed to 'tactical ceasefires for [the] convenience of [the] Muslims'.

The recurrent theme of the discussion was the Bosnian-Serb accusation emphasized by Mladic that the UN chose the side of the Bosnian Muslims and had no sympathy for the fate of the Serbian civilians in Muslim areas.
--
Lots of interesting reading. So far it demonstrates the UN and Muslims were in cahoots with each other using Bosnian Muslims as a sacrifice for NATO intervention.

Dragan run along and get back to manipulating the vote count. If you think that others haven't noticed that you are one of the many childish trolls operating on this site, think again.

Hint, if you want to do the multiple vote thing then don't do it all at once, becuase it looks obvious to regular posters. But well done because I will single you out for the same treatment I give wtf for multiple voting and personal attacks.

Zoran I see, so Sarajevo was bombarded because there was no peace agreement in place? Thats a weighty argument. Belgrade was bombarded because there was no agreement with NATO in place. Poor NATO, its the fault of the fact there was no agreement!

Of course civilians get attacked, but day in day out for months and years on end on one town? Well its an outrage, isn't it? Are you going to tell me it was ok that NATO bombed Serbia because civilians get attacked in war? Thats what happens in wars, why should we complain?

Hmm I'm a selective justice supporter. I condemn NATO bombing of civilians in Serbia, I condemn Bosnian Serb attacking of civilians in Sarajevo. You condemn NATO bombadment, but tell me that the bombardment of Sarajevo is ok, because its war and oh because there was no ceasfire - LOL, that is a gem!
Damn it we deserved to be bombed in Belgrade because we didn't sign Rambouillet! My God, Zoran really...

On the other hand you know very well that I support all war crimes being brought to justice, but you lyingly accuse me of supporting selective justice. I can only think you tell such lies when I have been so consistent, to cover up your double standards when comparing NATO crimes to those of Bosnian Serb forces.

Predrag, thanks for giving me a 'real' reason for the bombardment of Sarajevo. But that isn't much of a reason either. It can't be the fault of the attacked for not retreating. The responsiblity for an attack lies with the ones doing the attacking. I mean is it the fault of those people at that market in Nis that they were killed by NATO. They should have stayed at home would be your argument, its absurd.

'The Bosnian Serb army had the power to wipe out all of Bosnia if they had chosen to do so.'

Right, I see, which is why they DIDN'T do that.

Just seen Col Bob Stuart have a bitch fit about Mladic on BBC News... it was rather amusing.

However I hope Mladic has a fair trial and pays for his crimes.

Mladic is a HERO, pure and simple!
It was sad and infuriating to see such a great man, in his twilight years humiliated on international TV!
It’s totally insane to accuse Mladic, who was defending his homeland and people from slaughter at the hands of blood thirsty murderers and Islamic terrorists as a criminal!

The so called, international war crimes tribunal in the Hague has proven time and time again that it is nothing more than a Kangaroo court!
It lacks any kind or legitimacy or moral credibility!
It is total insult to fairness and justice!

The real criminals are Clinton, Blair, Albright, Clark and Bush and yet, these creatures are conveniently immune from prosecution!
Only in a sick and corrupt world can these heinous individuals go around killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people through bombings and sanctions and have the audacity to say that they are spreading freedom and democracy!
This kind of reality only exists in the mind of a schizophrenic!

Mladic is a great man!
He is a man of morals and integrity!
A quality that is totally lacking and foreign to the "Hague"
Despite of his ailing health and their shameful attempts at public humiliation, Mladic will stand tall.
After all, he has faced and survived far, far worse!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 12:44)


He was not a hero, not at all. Also if he was defending his homeland why would he have unarmed boys and old men killed? Why would he shell towns and cities where women and children were killed? Why would he have snipers shooting at unarmed civilians? Why would he have people beheaded? We would he forcibly remove people from their homes? Why would he have UN peacekeepers taken hostage? What is heroic about any of this? This goes far beyond defending your homeland. Where were Mladic's morals when this happened?

Many Bosnian Serbs were just defending their homeland during the Bosnia War, however Mladic was not one of these people. Unfortunately the likes of Mladic have given many honourable brave Bosnian Serbs who were just defending their homelands a bad name. I think that is a shame. War Crimes were committed by all parties in the Yugoslav Wars, if you have committed a war crime then you deserved to be tried; regardless if you're a Bosniak, Croat or a Serb. No-one is above the law.

However where I will agree with you is that I too would like to see Blair and Bush in the Hague for War Crimes.

Predrag, a bit of logic please. Mladic is far from beeing a great man. Because of him, the war that could have finished in 1993 was prolonged to 1995. Serbs have suffered immensely because of him, and the 4000 Serbs killed around Srebrenica would be alive if he had accepted the agreement in 1993 toi end the war. Read a bit about this.

Just looked at Mladic's appearance at The Hague. During the reading of the indictment, at times I could see shame on his face for what has been done while he was commander in chief. I am anxious to hear him on all points of the indictment.
(LOGICAL, 3 June 2011 14:52)

You need your eyes checked. He had a stroke brought on by brain tumor not shame as you claim. He said he was proud of his work to defend his people.

FOUND THIS...
Yasushi Akashi, former UN Representative in Bosnia, admitted in the Washington Times of 1 November 1995, that "it is a fact that the Bosnian government forces have used the 'safe areas' of not only Srebrenica, but Sarajevo, Tuzla, Bihac, Gorazde for training, recuperation and refurbishing their troops." In other words, the so-called safe areas were used as military posts to train Mujahedin fighters from Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Turkey and the entire Islamic world, free to commit their treachery by attacking Serbian villages and returning like thieves in the night back to the safety of their UN protectors who conveniently looked the other way to these violations. Prior to the events at Srebrenica, these "Holy Warriors of Islam" had attacked 42 surrounding Serbian villages and over 3,000 Serbian villagers had been slaughtered without fear of being reprimanded or punished by the UN. Yet, when Serbs were provoked to retaliate against these Muslim assaults from these so-called "safe-areas," they were condemned by the entire world.

Aleksandar Aleksic told the judges that he had informed his client about the indictment and that he was convinced that Mladic unerstood it.

Oh really? He understands the indictment? I seriously doubt that. The video footage posted by the Hague would lead one to belive that Mladic wasn't sure if he had even seen indictment -- let alone that he understood it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yKu0If_zk7I

Apparently he's had three strokes. His brain is toast. At the end of the hearing he told the judges, "I do not fear any journalists or any people or any nation or any ethnicity. I defended my people and my country, not Ratko Mladic. Now I am defending myself and I'm defending Ratko Mladic before you. Mr. Orie, I was treated with fairness and dignity except for the procedure and I have to say that that bothers me it really irritates me and when I see the balaclavas worn by those people I don't like that and I'd rather be killed by a policeman either here or in the United States or anywhere. If they were to kill me Ratko Mladic so that it can be reported in the press fine, but I can tell you I defended my country, I am Ratko Mladic. I did not kill Croats as Croats, and I'm not killing anyone either in Libya or in Africa. I was just defending my country... [microphone cut off by judge Orie]"

After seeing him today, it's obvious that he's mentally unable to recall what happened a couple days ago let alone details from the war 18 years ago. He can't defend himself. They shouldn't even bother with the trial under these circumstances. He may be physically present in the room, but his brain is clearly gone. Essentially, this amounts to a trial in absentia.

According to this US general and former NATO commander, he knows who is responsible for Srebrenica.
(Zoran, 3 June 2011 11:34)
Yes, he explicitly said the Serbs were the perpetrators of the crime. The Dutch peacekeepers failed to stop it.
Are you trying to place more blame on the Dutch or NATO.
The "you failed to stop me from butchering those people so you are to blame not me" is not going to fly in any cirlces except those who wish to blame others for their sins.

"This was a "WAR" and in wars, civilians die! "

Therefore, targeting civilians is moral and just.

Just looked at Mladic's appearance at The Hague. During the reading of the indictment, at times I could see shame on his face for what has been done while he was commander in chief. I am anxious to hear him on all points of the indictment.

Here are pictures to remember the Serbian humanitarian mission by. Look at the love shared with Bosnian Muslims just because of their religion. War Criminals cannot escape the long arm of justice. The last set of photos at the bottom of the blog, show a Serb policeman executing a civilian. The policeman was later captured by a team of US NAVY SEALS. You can run but you cant hide forever.

http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2011/03/bosnian-genocide-pictures-are-worth.html
(The Truth Chicago, 3 June 2011 17:49) I remember that the Serbian photographer sent out the photographs to the Hague and to the world press. Then he had to flee for his life to Holland with the Serbian counter "intelligence" trying to murder him their to stop him from testifying. The Serbian intelligence bozos were caught. That was one of the few of the 10s of thousands gruesome murders of unarmed civilians children ,women ,men caught on film. The criminally so called "Srpska" should be abolished their are thousands of those kind of perpetrators in Srpska aka Greater Serbia running around free. Making a living hell for the victimized refugees trying to return to their homes and their country.

one thing's for sure. All the kooks will come out of the wood-work now.

If you give me your address, I will surely send you 3 tin foil hats. It looks like you need them badly.
(Jan Andersen (DK), 3 June 2011 18:46)

Rather try to buy hats for your dannish friends.It is summer and danes exposed to direct sunshine look like boiled crabs.

Peggy it was Predrag that was quoting statistics I wanted to know what statistics they were and what year they were from - surely you can't disagree with that?

I don't have access to any population statistics beyond what you have access to, very likely if we were to look them up we would agree on a number. I suppose the only difficulty would be to work out in the past what percentage of 'Jugoslavs' were Serbs, Muslums etc. The reason why I brought up the topic is that it does seem as if Predrag is repeating a figure he heard somewhere. Far better to be specific if one is making a claim.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know that Sarajevo is suffering from severe problems, even though for some reason the official statistics show that the monthly wage of the average Bosanian is higher than the average Serbian wage.

If you have explanations / estimates then I'm all ears.

Zoran - what alternative was there, well call me old fashioned but if I was attacking a town as a general I would target military installations. Of course this is a tactic of war that has been seen before - although Sarajevo is considered the longest seige in modern history, but that doesn't mean that the murder of civilians is in any way acceptible.

'Now since we didn't accept that, well NATO bombed Serbia and as a consequence of war, civilians died'

Thats the most philosphical I've ever heard you on NATO. If I had said to you in this forum when talking about the murder of Serbian civlians 'war happens' you would have got extremely upset, so would I if somebody said that to me by the way. Usually you are foaming at the mouth on anything to do with NATO.

My point is that I've heard you condemn NATO any amount of times for killing civilians (and again rightly so) but you have never condemned the murder of civilians in Sarajevo mainly by Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslums.

I support all war crimes being tried in front of an impartial court. I don't believe in selective justice, never have. Thats clear.

'Who said it was OK to bomb Sarajevo?'
I condemn the bombardment of Sarajevo and Belgrade and the targetting of civilians in war. Do you?

Mladic forces did what racial and religious fanatics always do and went too far. And it also turned out that the Serbian gunmen were not “crack” forces or “elite” troops at all, but a sordid militia with an unbroken record of victory against civilians. Moreover, Mladic was a director and organizer of the mass slaughters at Srebrenica and Zepa (as of the obscene bombardment of the open city of Sarajevo), and not a mere follower of orders. The monstrous character of Mladic and his movement needed no exaggeration. To this day, a lot of people do not understand how much misery and chaos and suffering it purposely inflicted. Srebrenica is one of the best-documented atrocities in modern history. We have everything, from real-time satellite surveillance (shamefully available to the United States even as the butchery was going on) to film and video taken by the perpetrators, including Mladic himself. The production of this material in court will, one hopes, wipe any potential grin from his face and destroy the propaganda image of the simple patriotic man at arms. Though there is something faintly satisfying about this clichéd outcome — the figure of energetic evil reduced to a husk of exhausted banality

@ Predrag
If he is such a hero of yours, why dont you go testify at the Hague for all the good things he has done?

Predrag,you should cope with the fact that your so called hero is detained at the Hague. For your own sake you should forget about Mladic and move on with your life.

Zoran, as much as I agree with you on many of your points, there is no point in debating with certain liberal types who have commented here. You could produce the best evidence to them and they would choose to ignore it. It comes from people who probably had they been caught up in the war they would have cowardly ran away. The situation they now find themselves in is that they are deluded by the whole EU dream, and so selfishly would betray any man who had the guts to fight for their people. In Britain where I live that is what is missing from this country, a bit of good old patriotism, and as a Serb I recieve all kinds of comments from English people and other westerners about Balkan affairs, who feel qualified to comment on such issues where they lack the knowledge, their knowledge is limited to what they watch on the evening news and I get the impresseion that many comments here are of the same nature.

And, again, the usual delaying tactics which worked so well for Milosevic. Makes some sense for an old and ill (according to himself) guy, delaying the verdict as long as possible and then dying before the it happens.

Here are pictures to remember the Serbian humanitarian mission by. Look at the love shared with Bosnian Muslims just because of their religion. War Criminals cannot escape the long arm of justice. The last set of photos at the bottom of the blog, show a Serb policeman executing a civilian. The policeman was later captured by a team of US NAVY SEALS. You can run but you cant hide forever.

http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2011/03/bosnian-genocide-pictures-are-worth.html

(bganon, 3 June 2011 19:07)
Zoran I see, so Sarajevo was bombarded because there was no peace agreement in place? Thats a weighty argument. Belgrade was bombarded because there was no agreement with NATO in place. Poor NATO, its the fault of the fact there was no agreement!
--
Of course that is the case. Why do you think people/nations go to war? Because they agree or disagree? Please come out of the clouds.
==
Of course civilians get attacked, but day in day out for months and years on end on one town? Well its an outrage, isn't it? Are you going to tell me it was ok that NATO bombed Serbia because civilians get attacked in war? Thats what happens in wars, why should we complain?
--
Laying siege is a military tactic. Not a very nice one but there was war. What alternative was there? Overrun Sarajevo, displace everyone and have a humanitarian catastrophe? Remember, it has already been acknowledged that Serbians were seeking a ceasefire for the whole of BiH. If the other side was concerned for lives then why didn't they agree? They only wanted to do what benefited their position - winning control over BiH and since they couldn't do it themselves they needed NATO to intervene, which could only be done if there was a humanitarian catastrophe.

Your question about NATO does not make sense. My point is that NATO bombed Serbia because we did not agree with them (i.e. give KiM independence and have all of Serbia occupied by NATO). Now since we didn't accept that, well NATO bombed Serbia and as a consequence of war, civilians died. NATO killed thousands of civilians, Serbians, Albanians and others. They called it collateral damage while others call it a war crime. In fact, without a UN mandate and since you are so into law and "justice", it was an illegal attack.
==
Hmm I'm a selective justice supporter. I condemn NATO bombing of civilians in Serbia, I condemn Bosnian Serb attacking of civilians in Sarajevo. You condemn NATO bombadment, but tell me that the bombardment of Sarajevo is ok, because its war and oh because there was no ceasfire - LOL, that is a gem!
Damn it we deserved to be bombed in Belgrade because we didn't sign Rambouillet! My God, Zoran really...
--
Please tell me, are you feeling dizzy with the spin going on in your head? Who said it was OK to bomb Sarajevo? I am saying that is a consequence of war. Bombings happen in wars, civilians die in wars. Isn't that obvious? War is evil and when it starts, the cycle of violence begins. Cause and effect, you hurt me and I'll hurt you. You kill my family and I'll kill yours. What about all of the Serbian civilians that died in that war. Sounds like you don't give a damn because the western media didn't care either. That is why you are a selective justice supporter. You talk about Sarajevo only. The West reported about BiH civilians only because they needed sympathy to justify NATO action.

Why was war started in the first place? At the time Germany was blamed for premature recognition but since Germany is in the west and a NATO member, it couldn't be blamed for long. That's why they blamed Milosevic, to hide their own failings.
==
On the other hand you know very well that I support all war crimes being brought to justice, but you lyingly accuse me of supporting selective justice. I can only think you tell such lies when I have been so consistent, to cover up your double standards when comparing NATO crimes to those of Bosnian Serb forces.
--
Sorry, you are a selective justice supporter. You have admitted yourself that delays in Seselj's case are intentional to keep him out of Serbian politics. You justify that in your own mind, because you hate him, but that proves the NATO court is political. You only have to check the statistics to see the bias against Serbians and anyone who knows this and still supports it also supports selective justice.

You, roberto, Top, Nenad, Bob and many others here are selective justice supporters. I can assure you, that will keep divisions open for much longer than necessary.

Isn't it amazing how his arm seemed to gradually get better during the session!

Also, wasn't it condescending of him to show a 'little person' sign to the woman who made a sign to cut his throat?

I think his pompous reaction shows that there is more than enough mental capacity for him to be able to be tried, and quite likely enough stupidity in the man that he will condemn himself by just the things he says during the trial.

I am glad he is in the Hague, but I have to say that I am already getting bored with seeing him - I do not intend giving it so much attention from now on.

As for him defending Serbia? What nonsense. NO THANKS. Serbia does not need his type of person and never did. Serbia deserves better than that - it does not have to be loyal to murderers like him or to his supporters.

(bganon, 4 June 2011 14:33)
Zoran - what alternative was there, well call me old fashioned but if I was attacking a town as a general I would target military installations. Of course this is a tactic of war that has been seen before - although Sarajevo is considered the longest seige in modern history, but that doesn't mean that the murder of civilians is in any way acceptible.
--
Unfortunately civilians are targeted in war by accident and intentionally. It is done for revenge, used to instil fear and pressure a population. NATO does it, the Israeli forces do it as well as all sides in the Balkan conflicts.

While Sarajevo may have been under siege it also had supplies coming in so presumably it wasn't the most severe siege in modern history. I suspect the tactic there was to hold down a large number of Muslim fighters.
==
'Now since we didn't accept that, well NATO bombed Serbia and as a consequence of war, civilians died'

Thats the most philosphical I've ever heard you on NATO. If I had said to you in this forum when talking about the murder of Serbian civlians 'war happens' you would have got extremely upset, so would I if somebody said that to me by the way. Usually you are foaming at the mouth on anything to do with NATO.
--
Yes, I am against NATO (obviously) but first and foremost I am against war. Unfortunately it seems the West is now entering a perpetual state of war and I can't see it getting better any time soon.
==
My point is that I've heard you condemn NATO any amount of times for killing civilians (and again rightly so) but you have never condemned the murder of civilians in Sarajevo mainly by Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslums.

I support all war crimes being tried in front of an impartial court. I don't believe in selective justice, never have. Thats clear.
--
The NATO court is not impartial but you support Mladic being there.
==
'Who said it was OK to bomb Sarajevo?'
I condemn the bombardment of Sarajevo and Belgrade and the targetting of civilians in war. Do you?
--
LOL, did you need permission from your employer to write that?

So you've never heard me condemn the bombing of Sarajevo? Well, why should I? We have heard an unfair amount of press coverage regarding the Bosnian Muslim side but very little condemnation of crimes committed against Serbians. It is time for some balance and for the whole truth to be heard, not just selective stories that suit geopolitical agendas.

Now, back to your question, I have on numerous occasions condemned *all* crimes committed by *all* sides and condemned the killing of all innocent civilians in the Balkans and around the world. Why is Sarajevo or Belgrade more important than Baghdad, Palestine or even Tripoli?

Now who are the war mongers in this world? Who is starting all of these wars? Who is responsible for this mess?

It´s funny to see how the otporist narcissist Bganon´s self esteem heavily depends on the ratings she get´s from her pals on this site. If things not going her way she accuses every opponent of "manipulating"...

Forget about the 90´s and get yourself a life IRL Bganon, its 2011 now and Otpor is soooo out.

Mladic is not humilated by anything how can he be when he does not recognize the Hague the humilated people are the serbian government and people they threw him to the wolves and the world sees that. this is not about justice this all poltics serbs want in the EU Bosnian muslims want Bosnia KLA want Kosovo. Mladic is not about these games he is a man of action uncomfortable in the Hague of course he is not A MAN OF POLTICS BUT A MAN WHO STOOD TO PROTECT HIS PEOPLE AND HE IS PAYING FOR THAT THIS THE LESSON FOR SERBIA WHO WILL STAND FOR SERBS AGAIN WHEN THIS IS THE CONSEQUENCE.

"Where do you get your figures that Sarajevo has a 5% Serb population today? Actually I have a couple of Serb friends living in Sarajevo, they are able to live in their homes without problems so I'm not sure what you are talking about."
==================================

Ok so a couple of your friends living in Sarajevo makes more than 5%. Is this what you are trying to say?
Don't get off the track now. The discussion was about 5% Serbs living in Sarajevo and not whether your friends are living in peace or not.
So Bgannon, tell us, what is the percentage of Serbs living in Sarajevo and what was it before the war? You seem to know all the answers. I would love to hear from you how many Serbs live in Sarajevo today. Your own statistics.

Now I was born in Sarajevo and I have family there too. I can be just as expert as you then. I really don't know because we don't get into that. My family is struggling to survive there. Their problems are not how many Serbs are left but how they are going to survive at all.
I do know, however, that all the friends my parents had there are either gone from Sarajevo or dead. What are we going to conclude from this?

Of course it has helped the process of reconciliation. As has the capture and trial of Karadzic. Maybe not for you but for others you don't know, Mladic is hated equally by Serbs I know and by Muslims I know.
(KU, 3 June 2011 20:00)
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You talk about helping the process of reconciliation but then say Mladic is hated equally. Well, as I mentioned, it is the selective justice process that promotes hate and not reconciliation. If we followed the path of truth and reconciliation then we would be talking about truth, forgiveness and remorse but not hate.

Time is a natural healer, which is assisted by truth whereas hate (fear) slows it down.

According to your comments, gayness kills people.
(KU, 3 June 2011 20:00)
--
Wrong again. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. That came from a US general and NATO commander testifying to congress. I didn't say it.

--To this day, a lot of people do not understand how much misery and chaos and suffering it purposely inflicted. Srebrenica is one of the best-documented atrocities in modern history. We have everything, from real-time satellite surveillance (shamefully available to the United States even as the butchery was going on) to film and video taken by the perpetrators, including Mladic himself. The production of this material in court will, one hopes, wipe any potential grin from his face and destroy the propaganda image of the simple patriotic man at arms. Though there is something faintly satisfying about this clichéd outcome — the figure of energetic evil reduced to a husk of exhausted banality
(The Truth Chicago, 3 June 2011 15:54)--


this man really was, and is a monster -- that's not an overstatement. The whole issue of "banality" -- commonplace, trite? that's what hannah arendt said of eichmann: the banality of evil. I don't see banal, but i sure as hell see evil.

i thought about eichmann when mladic was "found" (when they stopped harboring him); eichmann was on the run for 15 years, and also protected by special interests. he was responsible for the rounding up and murdering of at least 100's of thousands of civilians, mainly jews, and he worked with a vengeance. mladic was very similar, but in a different terrain, focused mainly on non-serbs. though some serb civilians were also killed in the serb-led bombardments, siege, snipers, etc.

eichmannn was tried in jerusalem, found guilty and executed in 1962, which i actually remember. it was quite the news story back then. i sincerely believe the same should happen with mladic and karadzic in the hague, but they're too "civilized."

the other and obvious disturbing phenomenon is the great and widespread support for mladic carried on (here and elsewhere) by many serbian extreme nationalists. not all serbs! but way too many. "noz, zica, srebrenica!" Knife -- wire -- Srebrenica. can you imagine?! and this is supposed to be considered part of the normal discourse. and can you imagine what all of serbia's (non-serb) neighbors are thinking: mladic harbored for 16 years, and then when he is FINALLY picked up and extradited, 1,000s and thousands of serbs, in serbia, in "RS" and showing their support for him; laughing in the face of genocide.but at least they are "honest." we know what they are thinking, wishing...

tung. roberto frisco

It is clear who the perpetrators and who the victims were during the Bosnian war. And Mladic won't change this verdict. He will only permit the ICTY to show the world and the Serbs who really Mladic is: not a hero but a psychopath killer. Just as Goran Jelisic, commander at the Brcko Camp, who called himself, with pride, the «Serb Adolf». As Mladic was proud to be called the «Serb Napoleon».

This selection of pictures should be presented on Serb TV 24 hours every day to show the Serbs what was achieved in their name.

"Now tell me honestly, has the NATO court helped the process of reconciliation or has it ensured the divisions remain strong and wide? Perhaps you can use the comments here as an indication?"
(Zoran, 3 June 2011 17:54)

Of course it has helped the process of reconciliation. As has the capture and trial of Karadzic. Maybe not for you but for others you don't know, Mladic is hated equally by Serbs I know and by Muslims I know. Both sides were happy. The comments here are a false indication, they cannot be used. Especially your comments cannot be used. According to your comments, gayness kills people.

None of this would be necessary if all the nations of the former Jugoslavia just accepted each others differences and lived together as you did before all the nationalistic idiocy took hold. Does no one remember Jugoslavia??

@Yet Another J S

If you give me your address, I will surely send you 3 tin foil hats. It looks like you need them badly.

According to this US general and former NATO commander, he knows who is responsible for Srebrenica.
(Zoran, 3 June 2011 11:34)

Yeah, exactly, the Serbs. As the General said, they "marched the Muslims off and executed them"

Lets be clear here.
This was a "WAR" and in wars, civilians die!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Yes, but they have to die in accordance with the rules of the war. If they don’t die in accordance with those rules, the ones who killed them, go to trial. War has rules; we are not in medieval times.



You just need to look at the heroic actions by the US and the UK to see that they have no issues with bombing innocent civilians, all in the name of freedom and democracy!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Bombing innocent civilians is not always a war crime. You need to put some additional elements to make it a crime.



Secondly:
It was the Muslims who refused to allow the civilian population of Sarajevo to leave the city, under the pretence that they were saving it from ethnic cleansing!
I have a feeling that the civilian population would have view it differently!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

That is immaterial for the criminal responsibility of those who were bombing.



Thirdly:
Lets not forget that there was a large Serbian population in Sarajevo who were also being targeted by Muslim snipers, so please, lets not be so naive and simplistic as to believe that this was a war of good and evil.
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Sure, they should go to trial as well if the facts are as you say.



Mladic did not extend the war.
The Bosnian Serb army had the power to wipe out all of Bosnia if they had chosen to do so.
It was NATO who was insisting on arming and supplying the Muslim terrorists that prolonged the conflict!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Oh yeah, I see it now… Bosnia’s muslims are still there due to the magnanimity and mercy of Mladic (because he chose not to wipe them out)

Dude do you understand what you are saying ?! Your saying if somebody tries to kill you, don't resist otherwise you'll prolong the fight for your life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1



And one final note.
The Bosnian Muslims were often accused by the peace keepers of shelling their own people to gain attention and manipulate the world media in order to gain sympathy and NATO intervention.
Even the bombing in the Sarajevo market place was highly disputed!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Whoever did it should be prosecuted if the facts are as you say.



I stand by my original post
Mladic was a hero.
He was defending HIS LAND and HIS PEOPLE from extermination!
(Predrag, 3 June 2011 17:05)

Of course, your hero… But he is also an alleged international criminal as indicted by a tribunal set up by Russia, China, US, UK, France and other states.

Is not it unjust and preposterous to see the generals of the defeated armies always before war crime tribunals? The winner is always pardoned some will agree and justify.

But if any court assumes to be the servant of law (such as the ICJ), how is it that it allows this to happen?

For instance, the support given to the many rebels in the Balkans, which the Balkan suffers from, and their foreign German & American instructors…do you, the reader, psychologically understand where they are right now, right in this instance?

Do you like the less equal people in this world think that… that is where they should be (!)?

You know, they have also killed many innocent people, often out of inner physiological urgers, mostly very brutally and but also because of evilness that was blown into their minds, by psychopath instructors.

Think about how just this approach and those who adopt it is.
This is how I will remember all this.
How will you remember all this, my friend?

Thank you,
D.Parmenion from the Republic of Macedonia, Bratindol.
For the less equal: D.Parmenion from god knows where.

Yes RSA we do remember Jugoslavija, but come on, it can never be like that again. Ok this 'communism' kept people together, but only with an iron fist dictatorship, the reason why the war was so bad was because the true feelings of people were released when they had the chance. We cannot live together, the real bitterness was due to what the Croats and Muslims did to the Serbs in WWII. Serbs cannot forgive people who dont apologise so there is nobody Serbs can forgive, why is it always Serbs that have to apologise? As is the Serbs are the only criminals, give me a break.

According to Zoran's logic, no court is impartial:

The Hague is 'biased' because there are more Serbs accused and convicted thatn other.

Probably US courts are not impartial, because more black people are sent to prison than white people.

And, in general, no court in the world is impartial, because most accused criminals are male. What a bias, what a discrimination!!!

«After seeing him today, it's obvious that he's mentally ...»

At least ke nows that he is GENERAL Ratko Mladic and that he is well known worldwide, just as Michael Jackson and the Beatles.

He remembers quite well what happened and he will tell the tribunal.

The NATO court is not impartial but you support Mladic being there.
(Zoran, 4 June 2011 18:58)

First, it is not a NATO court because Russia and China are not part of Nato (as far as I know, at least, but you can illuminate us if you know otherwise).


Second, do you have any evidence that the court is not impartial ?