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Friday, 27.05.2011.

14:51

Moscow urges fair Hague trial for Mladić

Russia expects that the trial of ex-military leader of Serbs in Bosnia, Ratko Mladić, will be just and impartial, the Russian Foreign Ministry said on Friday.

Izvor: Beta

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lowe

pre 12 godina

“Unreasonable to expect un ambassador to be unprepared when expressing his opinion to journalists ?! “

Of course it is unreasonable. In any case as I already shown you, Rogozin did talk about Nato’s people and so your claim that he did not is pure FALSEHOOD! No way you are going to be able to wriggle out of your mistake!



“Of course” because you say so ?! I can say that, of course, he was referring to the moon and the stars :) “

Because I was able to prove to you with that Arabic news report link that he really did refer to Nato’s generals and thereby demolished your entire argument entirely. Okay, how about you now prove that he was referring to the moon and stars?????? But I wouldn’t be wasting my time waiting for your “proof” – this is yet another one of your FALSE claims.


“You did say that “you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past” and I’m telling you that “past” does not matter because 827 is still in force.

Also, I did not fail anything because I told you already that 827 does not exclude anybody in the world from its subject matter. But Rogozin spoke about “Nato” and not persons…”

Well, can you dispute that your statement was made in the present tense and therefore referring to the future? Don‘t forget that you like to pick on others over grammar and so you should be perfection personified on this yourself -- and I am just referring to your exact words.

You are so WRONG AGAIN about Rogozin not referring to persons – he talked about Nato generals (whom I like to think are human beings despite what they did to Serbia) and you are like the classic ostrich with its head firmly stuck inside the sand desperately shutting your eyes to clear cut evidence


“Well, they then better find some more capable people for ambassadors who are more predictable that will follow Moscow’s policy ! “

Show me how Rogozin’s detailed words is a contradiction of Moscow’s policy. Did any of his bosses repudiate what he said? This statement being yet another FALSITY on your part!


“Well, NATO is a subject of many laws… It’s just not subject of resolution 827. The disagreement is in the fact that Rogozin made Nato a subject of 827, as well, whereas Russia did not. “

Yet another FALSE statement by you! Rogozin did NOT make Nato a subject of 827 since he talked about Nato’s generals.


“UNSC Document S/PV.3217 page 6 says that Mr. Yuli Vorontsov (presiding the Security Council for the Russian Federation) voted in favor of Resolution 827 which makes only persons subject of the ICTY thus disagreeing with Mr. Rogozin who also makes organizations (Nato) subject of the ICTY. So, either Mr. Vorontsov or Rogozin represents Russia’s position, but not both. Therefore my statement is not FALSE.”

Well, Rogozin talked about Nato generals who can be liable under 827, right? So your statement that he did not is absolutely FALSE …… this being yet another of your string of false statements so far!


“Of course it is in variance because Rogozin did not say “those in Nato” but “Nato”. “

And pray tell, who are the Nato generals if they do not fall under “those in Nato”???????????



“I did not say “current government”; I said “Russia”… Not sure what you are speaking about “

Desperately trying to feign ignorance now? No way I am going to let you off the hook. Let me refresh your failing memory – on 3 June 2011 you defined Russia as the government. And that particular sentence of yours was made in the PRESENT tense. So how can I not conclude that you must be referring to the present government?



“Of course, nobody from Nato is exempted. However that was not what Rogozin said. He said “Nato” not “anybody from Nato” thus being in disagreement with Russia. “

Gosh, you keep insisting what he did not refer to people from Nato even in the face of clear cut evidence that he did. Your denial however cannot alter the facts which make a mockery of your FALSE statements.


“Of course I will refer exactly the the words, unless those who said those words come and speak differently. “

You have mocked others for not doing their homework – the classic case of the pot calling the kettle black! You FAILED to find out what he actually said in that interview which rendered your claim that he was not talking about those in Nato INVALID and FALSE!


“I’m glad that Rogozin finally learned that Nato is not a subject of ICTY, but “Nato Generals” (or, for that matter, everybody in the world) is if they committed serious violations of IHL in former Yugoslavia “

Actually he did not “finally learned” (yet one more FALSE statement from you!!!!!!) …… the Arabic news report quoted what Rogozin actually said in that interview while B92 only paraphrased him. And you were negligent in not finding out what he actually said before you mocked him for his lack of knowledge – and you ended up making a fool of yourself instead in the process because of your own omission.

“I did not say that Nato is a robot. I did say Nato is not a subject of 827, but it is subject of other laws. And I am not false at all in regards to the words B92 reported, which I assume stand as long as B92 does not issue a correction. As I said, I’m glad that Mr. Rogozin, in the interview for Moscow Echo radio remembers what Russia’s policy is and mentions “Nato generals” and not “Nato”, “enemies of serbs”, etc, as he did in the citation from B92. “

It is YOUR responsibility to check your facts before passing judgment on Rogozin. This you have FAILED to do so. You claimed that in that particular interview which Rogozin gave that he did not refer to those in Nato. The facts are that he referred to people in Nato in that interview and so your statement that he did not do so is FALSE !!!!



“That's a mistype ("n" for "r") that does not affect any of my arguments where I repeatedly said that I was referring to "persons". But B92 did not mention any other words from Mr. Rogozin to make it clear that he was referring to people when he said "Nato". And sure, I don’t have any problem with Mr. Rogozin coming out and saying, sorry, he misspoke and he meant “Nato generals” and not “Nato”.”

Nope. You like to hold people to their EXACT words and so why should you have the privilege of being exempt from your own high standards????? Anyone who check your favorite Merriam-Webster will see clearly the difference between the “violators” and “violations”. And you were referring to the latter which makes your statement FALSE once again!



“Dude, EU is the legal successor of the European Communities. What you’re saying is like saying Kosovo was part of Serbia-Montenegro, but not Serbia. If Morocco had become member of the ECs, it would have been member, ipso jure, of the EU. So you've not showing anything false from what I said (except for gramatical errors which we can find a lot on both sides if you want, but I don't have any intention on wasting time on that unless they are not clarified and affect the argument).
(icj1, 12 June 2011 20:41)”

You claimed that Morocco applied to join the EU (and NOT the European Communities) in 1987. Your claim is FALSE since the EU did NOT legally exist back in 1987!

The 1992 Maastrict treaty stated the intentions of the signatories to be:

“HAVE DECIDED to establish a European Union and to this end have designated as their plenipotentiaries: “ ……. followed by the list of heads of states at that time. So they only decided to establish the EU in 1992.

Moreover, Article A of this treaty began with “By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called ‘the Union’.”

These provisions in the Maastrict Treaty clearly show that the EU was only intended to be formed legally in 1992 and did not exist back in 1987 thereby making your statement about Morocco FALSE!

Just as you demanded of Rogozin to be crystal clear that he was referring to people in Nato (which he did and so proved your claim FALSE), so you have, in this case, failed miserably in meeting your own standards when you claimed that Morocco applied to join the legally non-existent EU in 1987. Indeed, why should you, of all people, be exempt from your own standards?

icj1

pre 12 godina

Well, then your expectations are unreasonable as I already told you.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Unreasonable to expect un ambassador to be unprepared when expressing his opinion to journalists ?!



When Rogozin answered the reporter’s question, of course he was referring to people in Nato
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

“Of course” because you say so ?! I can say that, of course, he was referring to the moon and the stars :)



Did I say that 827 is not in force? What I did was to ask you to show me the provision in it that stated that those in Nato are not liable. Which you have utterly failed to do so as I already pointed out above.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

You did say that “you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past” and I’m telling you that “past” does not matter because 827 is still in force.

Also, I did not fail anything because I told you already that 827 does not exclude anybody in the world from its subject matter. But Rogozin spoke about “Nato” and not persons…



Moreover how can the Russians back in 1993 disagree with Rogozin when, firstly, they could not have predicted what he would say in 2011?
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Well, they then better find some more capable people for ambassadors who are more predictable that will follow Moscow’s policy !



And as I already told you, Nato is not a robot. It is run by people. And it is those people who could be liable under 827. So where is the disagreement since Rogozin is speaking for the Russian government?
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Well, NATO is a subject of many laws… It’s just not subject of resolution 827. The disagreement is in the fact that Rogozin made Nato a subject of 827, as well, whereas Russia did not.



So can you show me evidence that the Russian ambassador at the UNSC voiced his disagreement over what Rogozin said????? Rogozin is serving ambassador for Russia to Nato (of all people!) – he therefore represented Russia when he replied to that reporter. And none of his superiors had repudiated what he said. So what he said on behalf of the Russian government still stands. The Russian government therefore agrees with him. And your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” is therefore FALSE!
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

UNSC Document S/PV.3217 page 6 says that Mr. Yuli Vorontsov (presiding the Security Council for the Russian Federation) voted in favor of Resolution 827 which makes only persons subject of the ICTY thus disagreeing with Mr. Rogozin who also makes organizations (Nato) subject of the ICTY. So, either Mr. Vorontsov or Rogozin represents Russia’s position, but not both. Therefore my statement is not FALSE.



Not immaterial at all! As I told you, 827 applies to those in Nato too and is therefore not at variance with what Rogozin said.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course it is in variance because Rogozin did not say “those in Nato” but “Nato”.



You are someone who like to hold people to their exact words. Well, I am now holding you to your EXACT words! You were referring to the CURRENT government ONLY in view of the present tense in your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

I did not say “current government”; I said “Russia”… Not sure what you are speaking about



Yes you can opine that about Rogozin if you wish, just as I was giving my opinion about him earlier. And the fact remains that your hallowed 827 does not give exemption to anybody from Nato. The facts are also that Rogozin is in the present Russian government and was therefore replying for the Russian government to the reporter’s question.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course, nobody from Nato is exempted. However that was not what Rogozin said. He said “Nato” not “anybody from Nato” thus being in disagreement with Russia.



Further to my reply to you that I submitted to B92 a short while ago, I must say that for someone like you to always insist on EXACTLY what was said by somebody, it is utterly amazing and INEXCUSABLE that you should be guilty of not bothering to find out, in this case, what Rogozin actually said. Instead you merely took at face value a report's brief paraphrase of what he told a reporter.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course I will refer exactly the the words, unless those who said those words come and speak differently.



If you had bothered to research your facts, you will easily come across more detailed news reports of what Rogozin actually said. For example, this was how an Arabic news report quoted him:

We don’t know whether it is the same interview. I was referring to the interview B92 referred to.

[Start of Quote]

"However Russia’s ambassador to NATO called for NATO generals to be tried alongside Mladic.

"But Serbia will not feel his guilt until ... it sees that members of the international community who shot at peaceful civilians are punished,” often outspoken ambassador Dmitry Rogozin told Moscow Echo radio.

“We should be talking about the responsibility of NATO generals,” he added.
[End of Quote]

[link]
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

I’m glad that Rogozin finally learned that Nato is not a subject of ICTY, but “Nato Generals” (or, for that matter, everybody in the world) is if they committed serious violations of IHL in former Yugoslavia



So even if I were to, for argument's sake, accept your strange notion that Nato is some robot whose actions are self-automated and entirely independent of the people running this robot, it is clear that Rogozin talked about Nato people. So your claim that he did not is utterly FALSE in any case!
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

I did not say that Nato is a robot. I did say Nato is not a subject of 827, but it is subject of other laws. And I am not false at all in regards to the words B92 reported, which I assume stand as long as B92 does not issue a correction. As I said, I’m glad that Mr. Rogozin, in the interview for Moscow Echo radio remembers what Russia’s policy is and mentions “Nato generals” and not “Nato”, “enemies of serbs”, etc, as he did in the citation from B92.



Moreover I might as well go all the way now and tell you also that your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was not the only one that was false in your original post on 28 May. You had also initially stated on that "Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law." This is also FALSE as the tribunal prosecutes violators and NOT violations -- again I think I have the right to hold you to the same high English grammatical standard that you expect of others.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)


That's a mistype ("n" for "r") that does not affect any of my arguments where I repeatedly said that I was referring to "persons". But B92 did not mention any other words from Mr. Rogozin to make it clear that he was referring to people when he said "Nato". And sure, I don’t have any problem with Mr. Rogozin coming out and saying, sorry, he misspoke and he meant “Nato generals” and not “Nato”.



So I think I have clearly shown what you wrote on this thread to be FALSE. As false as the last time in which you also mocked me for being ignorant in not knowing that Morocco applied for EU entry in 1987 -- when anyone with a basic knowledge of the EU should surely know that the EU did not legally exist prior to the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

Dude, EU is the legal successor of the European Communities. What you’re saying is like saying Kosovo was part of Serbia-Montenegro, but not Serbia. If Morocco had become member of the ECs, it would have been member, ipso jure, of the EU. So you've not showing anything false from what I said (except for gramatical errors which we can find a lot on both sides if you want, but I don't have any intention on wasting time on that unless they are not clarified and affect the argument).

lowe

pre 12 godina

icj1,

Further to my reply to you that I submitted to B92 a short while ago, I must say that for someone like you to always insist on EXACTLY what was said by somebody, it is utterly amazing and INEXCUSABLE that you should be guilty of not bothering to find out, in this case, what Rogozin actually said. Instead you merely took at face value a report's brief paraphrase of what he told a reporter.


If you had bothered to research your facts, you will easily come across more detailed news reports of what Rogozin actually said. For example, this was how an Arabic news report quoted him:

[Start of Quote]

"However Russia’s ambassador to NATO called for NATO generals to be tried alongside Mladic.

"But Serbia will not feel his guilt until ... it sees that members of the international community who shot at peaceful civilians are punished,” often outspoken ambassador Dmitry Rogozin told Moscow Echo radio.

“We should be talking about the responsibility of NATO generals,” he added.
[End of Quote]

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/26/150673.html?PHPSESSID=22m5erkdkhso3ouqmg31iuch55

So even if I were to, for argument's sake, accept your strange notion that Nato is some robot whose actions are self-automated and entirely independent of the people running this robot, it is clear that Rogozin talked about Nato people. So your claim that he did not is utterly FALSE in any case!


Moreover I might as well go all the way now and tell you also that your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was not the only one that was false in your original post on 28 May. You had also initially stated on that "Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law." This is also FALSE as the tribunal prosecutes violators and NOT violations -- again I think I have the right to hold you to the same high English grammatical standard that you expect of others.

So I think I have clearly shown what you wrote on this thread to be FALSE. As false as the last time in which you also mocked me for being ignorant in not knowing that Morocco applied for EU entry in 1987 -- when anyone with a basic knowledge of the EU should surely know that the EU did not legally exist prior to the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.

lowe

pre 12 godina

“Of course I expected him to give a list of names (not long, I did not say that) since he was speaking about a tribunal. Otherwise if he does not have a list, nobody forced him to say anything. “

Well, then your expectations are unreasonable as I already told you. I doubted that even Washington or Pristina mentioned individual names every time they answer reporters’ questions about the tribunal or other things.


“Come on lowe :) you are so skillful in trying to sneak in questions about a different thing. I said that resolution 827 excludes “Nato” not “anyone from Nato” that you are asking about. On that we agree… nobody from Nato, or for that matter, nobody of the 6B+ people in the world, is excluded from the ICTY’s jurisdiction. But Rogozin did not say “anyone from Nato”; he said “Nato”. “

I don’t sneak in anything. I merely asked you to show me the relevant provision in that UN document that exempted those from Nato – which you have failed to do so. Which therefore makes your statement that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin “ a false one. When Rogozin answered the reporter’s question, of course he was referring to people in Nato –- Nato is not a robot except in your unique dreams.


“Dude, for your information, 827 is still in force so it does not matter on whether Russia approved it 18 years or 180 years ago. It is the law. “

Did I say that 827 is not in force? What I did was to ask you to show me the provision in it that stated that those in Nato are not liable. Which you have utterly failed to do so as I already pointed out above.

Moreover how can the Russians back in 1993 disagree with Rogozin when, firstly, they could not have predicted what he would say in 2011? As I said, you are the only person I know who relies on a fortune teller, but don’t be absurd to assume everyone else also have their own soothsayers. Secondly and more importantly, where does 827 itself excuse those from Nato? Finally, your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was made in the present tense which referred to the Russian government today – Rogozin was answering the reporter on behalf of the Russian government. ie. He is the Russian government in that context and so I would even dare say that the Russian government not only does not disagree with him but agrees with him!


“I don’t see it, too. Res 827 does not exempt any person in the world, Nato people or not. But Rogozin did not say “Nato people”, but “Nato” and that is excluded by Res 827. “

And as I already told you, Nato is not a robot. It is run by people. And it is those people who could be liable under 827. So where is the disagreement since Rogozin is speaking for the Russian government?


“Oh my god, how predictable you are :). I knew exactly this was going to be your reply… ha, ha, ha… A serving ambassador can represent as much as his credentials allow. So, we have the Russian ambassador at the UNSC that approves one thing, and the Russian ambassador at a press conference that says another thing. I know that credentials are checked at the UN; I can’t tell that for a press conference. So between the two ambassadors, one thing is sure: the UN one was representing Russia. Now, if you think that Rogozin represents Russia, and the UN ambassador does not, that’s fine, too. In that case I’ll say that Russia disagrees with the UN amabassador.”

So can you show me evidence that the Russian ambassador at the UNSC voiced his disagreement over what Rogozin said????? Rogozin is serving ambassador for Russia to Nato (of all people!) – he therefore represented Russia when he replied to that reporter. And none of his superiors had repudiated what he said. So what he said on behalf of the Russian government still stands. The Russian government therefore agrees with him. And your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” is therefore FALSE!


“Immaterial ! Changing Russia’s government, does not change the fact that Russia voted for resolution 827. No need to deal with the rest of your statement as it does not make any sense. States cannot get out of international agreements or undo their votes by saying, well we changed government now so everything the prior government did is null and void :) “

Not immaterial at all! As I told you, 827 applies to those in Nato too and is therefore not at variance with what Rogozin said. As for the rest of my statements, they made perfect sense to me and, moreover, they exposed the big flaw in YOUR argument which was probably why you were so eager to gloss over them.

You are someone who like to hold people to their exact words. Well, I am now holding you to your EXACT words! You were referring to the CURRENT government ONLY in view of the present tense in your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. And since Rogozin is in the current government and his bosses did not disagree with him, it means that they accepted what he said on their behalf. So they agreed with him and hence that statement of yours that this government does not agree with him is false!


“Sure, and I say that Rogozin PERHAPS did not know what resolution 827 said. And we can continue with other PERHAPS if you want. Nobody will be able to solve, except Rogozin himself, what PERHAPS is correct. The only thing that is a fact is that Rogozin did say “tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."
(icj1, 4 June 2011 20:14)”

Yes you can opine that about Rogozin if you wish, just as I was giving my opinion about him earlier. And the fact remains that your hallowed 827 does not give exemption to anybody from Nato. The facts are also that Rogozin is in the present Russian government and was therefore replying for the Russian government to the reporter’s question.

icj1

pre 12 godina

He was probably replying to a reporter’s question. not writing a precise legal report. It is unreasonable for you to expect him to give a reply that included a long, exact list of Nato names.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Of course I expected him to give a list of names (not long, I did not say that) since he was speaking about a tribunal. Otherwise if he does not have a list, nobody forced him to say anything.



YOU may disagree with him. But how does Russian approval of the UN document come to be construed as disagreeing with him? Show me the precise parts of the document that stated that it did NOT apply to anyone from Nato.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Come on lowe :) you are so skillful in trying to sneak in questions about a different thing. I said that resolution 827 excludes “Nato” not “anyone from Nato” that you are asking about. On that we agree… nobody from Nato, or for that matter, nobody of the 6B+ people in the world, is excluded from the ICTY’s jurisdiction. But Rogozin did not say “anyone from Nato”; he said “Nato”.



Wrong again! You stated that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. In the first place, in order to disagree with someone, you need to be aware of what that person said or did in order to be able to disagree with him. When the UN document was approved back in 1993, the Russians were NOT aware back then of what someone called Rogozin will be saying in 2011. The Russians back then could therefore not have known about Rogozin to be able to disagree with him. They are not fortunate like you to have a fortune teller to predict the future for them.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Dude, for your information, 827 is still in force so it does not matter on whether Russia approved it 18 years or 180 years ago. It is the law.



Secondly, I cannot see how the UN document itself exempted Nato people in any way. I’m of the view therefore that this document does not contradict Rogozin.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

I don’t see it, too. Res 827 does not exempt any person in the world, Nato people or not. But Rogozin did not say “Nato people”, but “Nato” and that is excluded by Res 827.



Hah! You just contradicted yourself! So your “Russia” refers to the Russian government. And pray tell, isn’t a serving ambassador like Rogozin therefore part of this government????? So you are in fact saying that Russia does not agree with Russia!
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Oh my god, how predictable you are :). I knew exactly this was going to be your reply… ha, ha, ha… A serving ambassador can represent as much as his credentials allow. So, we have the Russian ambassador at the UNSC that approves one thing, and the Russian ambassador at a press conference that says another thing. I know that credentials are checked at the UN; I can’t tell that for a press conference. So between the two ambassadors, one thing is sure: the UN one was representing Russia. Now, if you think that Rogozin represents Russia, and the UN ambassador does not, that’s fine, too. In that case I’ll say that Russia disagrees with the UN amabassador.



Do you also realize another inconsistency in what you wrote? You stated that “Unfortunately Russia DOES NOT agree with Rogozin”. (capital letters are mine for emphasis). You were thus referring to the Russian government (as clarified by you above) of TODAY, not the government back in 1993!
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Immaterial ! Changing Russia’s government, does not change the fact that Russia voted for resolution 827. No need to deal with the rest of your statement as it does not make any sense. States cannot get out of international agreements or undo their votes by saying, well we changed government now so everything the prior government did is null and void :)



Yes, I am giving my opinion of what Rogozin might have thought. I did NOT claimed to be able to read his mind. That’s why I used the word “Perhaps”. I’m sure your favorite Merriam-Webster has the definition of that word if you would care to check.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Sure, and I say that Rogozin PERHAPS did not know what resolution 827 said. And we can continue with other PERHAPS if you want. Nobody will be able to solve, except Rogozin himself, what PERHAPS is correct. The only thing that is a fact is that Rogozin did say “tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

lowe

pre 12 godina

“"Perhaps" ?! I don't know... As I said before I don't have mind reading capabilities. I judge by what people do or say. He said "NATO" has to face justice. And I was referring to what he actually said: "NATO". Whereas you want to read his mind and refer to what he might have wanted to say. “

He was probably replying to a reporter’s question. not writing a precise legal report. It is unreasonable for you to expect him to give a reply that included a long, exact list of Nato names.


“Well, Russia approved a document at the UN that says differently. So diagreed with him.”

YOU may disagree with him. But how does Russian approval of the UN document come to be construed as disagreeing with him? Show me the precise parts of the document that stated that it did NOT apply to anyone from Nato.


“Because they acted to approve something that does not agree with what Rogozin says”

Wrong again! You stated that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. In the first place, in order to disagree with someone, you need to be aware of what that person said or did in order to be able to disagree with him. When the UN document was approved back in 1993, the Russians were NOT aware back then of what someone called Rogozin will be saying in 2011. The Russians back then could therefore not have known about Rogozin to be able to disagree with him. They are not fortunate like you to have a fortune teller to predict the future for them.

Secondly, I cannot see how the UN document itself exempted Nato people in any way. I’m of the view therefore that this document does not contradict Rogozin.


“Government as represented by its authorized representatives”

Hah! You just contradicted yourself! So your “Russia” refers to the Russian government. And pray tell, isn’t a serving ambassador like Rogozin therefore part of this government????? So you are in fact saying that Russia does not agree with Russia!

Do you also realize another inconsistency in what you wrote? You stated that “Unfortunately Russia DOES NOT agree with Rogozin”. (capital letters are mine for emphasis). You were thus referring to the Russian government (as clarified by you above) of TODAY, not the government back in 1993! For someone who had belittled my poor English that doesn't meet your lofty standards, you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past. As I already told you, I'm not aware that the Russian governemnt of TODAY had voiced any disagreement so far with Rogozin's words. In any case, he is part of the present Russian government.




“Well, if you say "Perhaps Rogozin considered...", then you are reading his mind, otherwise how would you know what he considered if he did not say it ?!
(icj1, 3 June 2011 06:46)”

Yes, I am giving my opinion of what Rogozin might have thought. I did NOT claimed to be able to read his mind. That’s why I used the word “Perhaps”. I’m sure your favorite Merriam-Webster has the definition of that word if you would care to check.

icj1

pre 12 godina

Perhaps Rogozin considered Nato bombing of Serbia to be a serious violation of international humanitarian law, and that Nato's military leaders should therefore be brought to the ICTY.
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

"Perhaps" ?! I don't know... As I said before I don't have mind reading capabilities. I judge by what people do or say. He said "NATO" has to face justice. And I was referring to what he actually said: "NATO". Whereas you want to read his mind and refer to what he might have wanted to say.



And so far not a single one of his superiors have brought him to task publicly over the issue as far as I know. So where is the proof that his bosses disagreed with him?
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Well, Russia approved a document at the UN that says differently. So diagreed with him.



Of course you do not know the mind of his bosses, so how can you conclude in the first place that they disagreed with Rogozin?
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Because they acted to approve something that does not agree with what Rogozin says



And as I asked you earlier, how do you define “Russia” in the first place???
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Government as represented by its authorized representatives



I don’t read minds, I give opinions. You on the other hand, have demonstrated a tendency to make outrageous claims in the past.
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Well, if you say "Perhaps Rogozin considered...", then you are reading his mind, otherwise how would you know what he considered if he did not say it ?!

lowe

pre 12 godina

“Well, I apologize if Russia saying one thing and Rogozin saying another thing was interpreted by me as "disagreement". I'm leaving it to you to find a more correct English word to define such a thing. “

What exactly did "Russia" say that contradicted Rogozin??????? No need to apologize – just provide the proof, assuming you can. And how do you define “Russia”????? Do you mean the government? As I understand it, a serving ambassador is part of the government too, right?


“Well, UNSC Resolution 827 approved, among others, by Russia, says that ICTY is established "for the sole purpose of prosecuting persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law".

Whereas Rogozin says "that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed"

So the two statements do not agree with each other. Just consider that NATO is not a "person" as Russia, among others, requires in Resolution 827. But Rogozin disagrees; he still wants NATO to face justice at the Tribunal. So either Russia or Rogozin is right... but not both “

Perhaps Rogozin considered Nato bombing of Serbia to be a serious violation of international humanitarian law, and that Nato's military leaders should therefore be brought to the ICTY. And so far not a single one of his superiors have brought him to task publicly over the issue as far as I know. So where is the proof that his bosses disagreed with him?


“I'm not in the mind of his bosses, but, I leave that to your mind-reading capabilities well demonstrated in the past.
(icj1, 1 June 2011 04:00)”

Of course you do not know the mind of his bosses, so how can you conclude in the first place that they disagreed with Rogozin? And as I asked you earlier, how do you define “Russia” in the first place???

I don’t read minds, I give opinions. You on the other hand, have demonstrated a tendency to make outrageous claims in the past.

icj1

pre 12 godina

There is nothing in the article that clearly stated whether the Russia agrees or disagrees with Rogozin
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

Well, I apologize if Russia saying one thing and Rogozin saying another thing was interpreted by me as "disagreement". I'm leaving it to you to find a more correct English word to define such a thing.



-- if you have your sources, do share so that readers can evaluate them.
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

Well, UNSC Resolution 827 approved, among others, by Russia, says that ICTY is established "for the sole purpose of prosecuting persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law".

Whereas Rogozin says "that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed"

So the two statements do not agree with each other. Just consider that NATO is not a "person" as Russia, among others, requires in Resolution 827. But Rogozin disagrees; he still wants NATO to face justice at the Tribunal. So either Russia or Rogozin is right... but not both



My opinion about this however, is that it is unlikely for any serving ambassador to make public statements that his bosses do not agree with.
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

I'm not in the mind of his bosses, but, I leave that to your mind-reading capabilities well demonstrated in the past.

New Zealander

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...
(Top, 28 May 2011 10:31)

Strange ideas you have, I'm not even a Serb and I think the Hague is biased. Why not indict Bush and Blair for the 500,000 in Iraq? You might want to read a bit of this Hague transcript, (Hint press F3 and search
"Torture") http://www.ictytranscripts.org/TrialTranscripts/HTML/transe54/02-07-26-IT.html

Peggy

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...
(Top, 28 May 2011 10:31)
============================

That's some imagination you have there grandma.

Funny how all who died while waiting for a trial and all who are imprisoned there for years and years without a verdict happen to be Serbs.
But hey, your version of justice is obviously so much more accurate than mine.
Nothing suspicious there alright.

jla

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...

You do realize, of course, that you just extrapolated 8000 murders from a dubious video of a hand full of victim and then placed the blame on somebody who wasn't anywhere near the aledged location, don't you?

Moshe Levine

pre 12 godina

As for General Colonel Leonid Ivashov he is a very noble and educated man ! He was one of the few Russian Generals to plan the Pristina air port operation. Every Serbian will tell you what moral support those 200 peace makers brought to the victim nation. By the way their commander was a Muslim and now is the President of the Ingushetia Region of Russia.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Little good did the failed invasion by the Russians do, at Pristina airport. General Colonel Ivashov ended up with egg on his face when his troops had to beg for food and water from the British NATO command. Shortly after having been assigned to polish American soldier's boots in NATO, the Russians quit and went home with their tail's between their legs.

JohnC.

pre 12 godina

Looks like Russia is more pro Serb than Tadic and the rest of his traitors are.
(Peggy, 28 May 2011 04:57)

Yeah, really? That is why the Russians withdrew troops from Kosovo, right?

Always very interesting to read from far-right-wing Serbs sitting in Western countries, telling Serbs in Serbia how to behave, so that they can continue to cheer in their Cetnik bars in the West.

Btw. why is Mladic a hero? He didn't win a single military campaign and would have been in jail or death if the Hrvatska Garda didn't stop obliterating the pathetic rest of his genocide entity. He was only successful in murdering unarmed civilians, whether they were in Srebrenica or kids playing in Sarajevo. If you would call this man a hero and you just confirm that your are the bottom of the barrel of all peoples in the world.

lowe

pre 12 godina

"Unfortunately, Russia does not agree with Rogozin. Russia did not say that the tribunal is there to prosecute “enemies of Serbs, and NATO”, Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law.
(icj1, 28 May 2011 05:48)"

I merely agreed with Rogozin, which should be abundantly clear from my post.

There is nothing in the article that clearly stated whether the Russia agrees or disagrees with Rogozin -- if you have your sources, do share so that readers can evaluate them.

My opinion about this however, is that it is unlikely for any serving ambassador to make public statements that his bosses do not agree with.

Goni_from_illyria

pre 12 godina

Moscow asks for Hague to give a fair trial to Mladic.

What a joke!!!

Moscow fails to give its ordinary citizens a fair trial, yet they ask to give a fair trial to Mladic, who has ordered the killings of 100 of thousands of Yougosllaves (non Serbs).

Real joke this is, and more so for B92 to even print this article here.

Top

pre 12 godina

So I am guessing that you don't want a fair trial for Mladic for reasons you have just specified.
(Peggy, 28 May 2011 04:57)

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...

Top

pre 12 godina

**** Stop this nonsece please ! During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it. For your better understanding the figure includes all the criminals shot down and all the traitors and military criminals shot down during crushing the Wermacht.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Yes, you are right, 'only' some 800,000 were sentenced to death in political trials, including priest, peasants, everyone who opposed him. And sometimes people were arbitrarily chosen by local Stalin secret police, just to fullfill the daily execution quote.

And Please add some additional millions who simply starved to death in his Gulag concentration camps. Plus some 100,000s who didn't survive the deportations/relocations to Sibiria. The first form of ethnic cleansing.

These numbers are minimum numbers, even admitted by Russia, nowadays. Independent historians estimate them to be at least twice or three times higher.

Okay, if you admire Stalin, no wonder that you admire Mladic. Well, some Germans and (other Neonazis, even in Israel) admire Hitler ;-)

icj1

pre 12 godina

During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Wow, those 890k were the lucky ones to get the sentence... for the other millions that small burocratic step was correctly deemed unesseccesary; why all of that red tape for nothing ?!

icj1

pre 12 godina

"Russia's Ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin believes that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

AGREE 100 PERCENT!!!
(lowe, 27 May 2011 15:13)


Unfortunately, Russia does not agree with Rogozin. Russia did not say that the tribunal is there to prosecute “enemies of Serbs, and NATO”, Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law.

Peggy

pre 12 godina

Russians demanding "fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case. How can you take those opinions seriously.
(Top, 27 May 2011 16:55)
============================

So I am guessing that you don't want a fair trial for Mladic for reasons you have just specified.

Looks like Russia is more pro Serb than Tadic and the rest of his traitors are.

Goran.

pre 12 godina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyh_AWtgwjw

Very interesting video/s =) but the music in the background is a bit que and the translations on the video are not complete and at times incorrect.

Rote Kapelle

pre 12 godina

Top, 27 May

"fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case …
*** Yes I agree cause most Russians believe Hodor deserves death sentence. Not for the stolen Billions and not for being an American agent of influence. At least as Jew he don’t have to love Russia. Not for the attempt to sell strategic Ukos to the Yankees. He should be hanged up for dozenz of people killed at his command during Eltsyn.

Stalin (responsible for millions of killings) a hero and defender of Russia, too.

**** Stop this nonsece please ! During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it. For your better understanding the figure includes all the criminals shot down and all the traitors and military criminals shot down during crushing the Wermacht.

Disgusting, simply disgusting

**** Yes I agree you really are cause you must be alive today because Mr Stalin had set your country free. Don’t you think you are something better than 60-70% of the Russians one way or another respecting most of the things he had done ? When Europe lived in the borders Stalin scheduled with Mr. Churchill THERE WERE NO BLOODSHEDS … Disgusting, simply disgusting ! Unthankfulness is really disgusting and repeating the Cold War refrains and manthras does not tribute to you intellect and education. You exist because of the USSR headed by Mr. Dzhugashvili. This Ossetian saved the whole of the world to let the downshifters to bark whenever they want.

*** As for General Colonel Leonid Ivashov he is a very noble and educated man ! He was one of the few Russian Generals to plan the Pristina air port operation. Every Serbian will tell you what moral support those 200 peace makers brought to the victim nation. By the way their commander was a Muslim and now is the President of the Ingushetia Region of Russia.

Nelli_Canada

pre 12 godina

The court, said Kosachov, has been "curiously passive" when it comes to such crimes as human organ trafficking in Kosovo - atrocities believed to be perpetrated by ethnic Albanians.


Leave Albanians alone, move on dudes coz Kosova will soon be a NATO member and there's nothing you can do about it. KSF is on its' way of becoming professional Army, bye bye Russia:),

Zoran

pre 12 godina

He also quoted statistics that showed the Hague Tribunal's verdicts were handed down to Serbs in 96.8 percent of all cases. At the same time, the Russian official noted, that war crimes court saw several odd acquittals of persons who represented other sides in the conflicts.
--
Lets not forget that is has cost about $50 million per Serbian conviction so it has been a very expensive exercise for the NATO countries at the forefront of its funding considering it has only proven to be a kangaroo court with no credibility.

Francisco

pre 12 godina

The lead paragraph of this article says, "Russia expects that the trial of ex-military leader of Serbs in Bosnia, Ratko Mladic, will be just and impartial, the Russian Foreign Ministry said on Friday."

Why would they expect that? The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result. The proceedings at The Hague have never been "just and impartial", why would they start now?

The entire purpose of this trial is to vindicate NATO policy in the regoin. The purpose of the Gotovina trial was to distance the Americans from his crimes and put all of the blame on the Croats. The purpose of the Oric trial was to whitewash his crimes so they wouldn't interfere with the Srebrenica narritave the Tribunal wants to cultivate. They never wanted a conviction in that trial, why do you think the prosecutor never called guys like Morrilion or any of the journalists that Oric boasted about his crimes to as witnesses?

Some of the stupidest things I've ever read in my life I've found in the pages of the ICTY's verdicts, like speculation that Serbia wanted to be bombed by NATO in 1999 so it would have deniability to expell Albanians from Kosovo. Or that in Srebrenica you can tell how somebody died from their DNA. Or what about Judge Parker's report on Milosevic's death where he says the doctors didn't tell Milosevic about the results of his own blood tests for several months (when they first found non-prescribed drugs in his system that interfered with his hypertension medication) on the excuse that Dutch medical confidentiality laws prevented them from telling the patient the result of his own blood test. Then two weeks before that we had Milan Babic's "suicide" in the Hague jail where the ligature mark on his neck didn't match the belt they said he hanged himself with.

There is no reason to expect that Mladic or anyone else would get a fair trial at The Hague. It looks to me like Mladic had a stroke. He doesn't sound right when he talks and his arm seems to be paralized. There's no way he can defend himself in that condition, and when the Hague tried to assign Karadzic a lawyer (against his will) they tried to give him the KLA's lawyer. Mladic is going to be railroaded.

Top

pre 12 godina

"Leonid Ivashov considers Ratko Mladić a hero, and says his extradition to the Hague Tribunal would be a mistake."

Persons like him probably consider Stalin (responsible for millions of killings) a hero and defender of Russia, too. Disgusting, simply disgusting.

Russians demanding "fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case. How can you take those opinions seriously.

Obilic

pre 12 godina

Its amazing that Russians are more Serbian than actual Serbs! Tadic please go away! Save what is left of our once proud nation! Sram te bilo!

lowe

pre 12 godina

"Russia's Ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin believes that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

AGREE 100 PERCENT!!!

lowe

pre 12 godina

"Russia's Ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin believes that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

AGREE 100 PERCENT!!!

Obilic

pre 12 godina

Its amazing that Russians are more Serbian than actual Serbs! Tadic please go away! Save what is left of our once proud nation! Sram te bilo!

Top

pre 12 godina

"Leonid Ivashov considers Ratko Mladić a hero, and says his extradition to the Hague Tribunal would be a mistake."

Persons like him probably consider Stalin (responsible for millions of killings) a hero and defender of Russia, too. Disgusting, simply disgusting.

Russians demanding "fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case. How can you take those opinions seriously.

Francisco

pre 12 godina

The lead paragraph of this article says, "Russia expects that the trial of ex-military leader of Serbs in Bosnia, Ratko Mladic, will be just and impartial, the Russian Foreign Ministry said on Friday."

Why would they expect that? The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result. The proceedings at The Hague have never been "just and impartial", why would they start now?

The entire purpose of this trial is to vindicate NATO policy in the regoin. The purpose of the Gotovina trial was to distance the Americans from his crimes and put all of the blame on the Croats. The purpose of the Oric trial was to whitewash his crimes so they wouldn't interfere with the Srebrenica narritave the Tribunal wants to cultivate. They never wanted a conviction in that trial, why do you think the prosecutor never called guys like Morrilion or any of the journalists that Oric boasted about his crimes to as witnesses?

Some of the stupidest things I've ever read in my life I've found in the pages of the ICTY's verdicts, like speculation that Serbia wanted to be bombed by NATO in 1999 so it would have deniability to expell Albanians from Kosovo. Or that in Srebrenica you can tell how somebody died from their DNA. Or what about Judge Parker's report on Milosevic's death where he says the doctors didn't tell Milosevic about the results of his own blood tests for several months (when they first found non-prescribed drugs in his system that interfered with his hypertension medication) on the excuse that Dutch medical confidentiality laws prevented them from telling the patient the result of his own blood test. Then two weeks before that we had Milan Babic's "suicide" in the Hague jail where the ligature mark on his neck didn't match the belt they said he hanged himself with.

There is no reason to expect that Mladic or anyone else would get a fair trial at The Hague. It looks to me like Mladic had a stroke. He doesn't sound right when he talks and his arm seems to be paralized. There's no way he can defend himself in that condition, and when the Hague tried to assign Karadzic a lawyer (against his will) they tried to give him the KLA's lawyer. Mladic is going to be railroaded.

Zoran

pre 12 godina

He also quoted statistics that showed the Hague Tribunal's verdicts were handed down to Serbs in 96.8 percent of all cases. At the same time, the Russian official noted, that war crimes court saw several odd acquittals of persons who represented other sides in the conflicts.
--
Lets not forget that is has cost about $50 million per Serbian conviction so it has been a very expensive exercise for the NATO countries at the forefront of its funding considering it has only proven to be a kangaroo court with no credibility.

Top

pre 12 godina

**** Stop this nonsece please ! During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it. For your better understanding the figure includes all the criminals shot down and all the traitors and military criminals shot down during crushing the Wermacht.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Yes, you are right, 'only' some 800,000 were sentenced to death in political trials, including priest, peasants, everyone who opposed him. And sometimes people were arbitrarily chosen by local Stalin secret police, just to fullfill the daily execution quote.

And Please add some additional millions who simply starved to death in his Gulag concentration camps. Plus some 100,000s who didn't survive the deportations/relocations to Sibiria. The first form of ethnic cleansing.

These numbers are minimum numbers, even admitted by Russia, nowadays. Independent historians estimate them to be at least twice or three times higher.

Okay, if you admire Stalin, no wonder that you admire Mladic. Well, some Germans and (other Neonazis, even in Israel) admire Hitler ;-)

Nelli_Canada

pre 12 godina

The court, said Kosachov, has been "curiously passive" when it comes to such crimes as human organ trafficking in Kosovo - atrocities believed to be perpetrated by ethnic Albanians.


Leave Albanians alone, move on dudes coz Kosova will soon be a NATO member and there's nothing you can do about it. KSF is on its' way of becoming professional Army, bye bye Russia:),

JohnC.

pre 12 godina

Looks like Russia is more pro Serb than Tadic and the rest of his traitors are.
(Peggy, 28 May 2011 04:57)

Yeah, really? That is why the Russians withdrew troops from Kosovo, right?

Always very interesting to read from far-right-wing Serbs sitting in Western countries, telling Serbs in Serbia how to behave, so that they can continue to cheer in their Cetnik bars in the West.

Btw. why is Mladic a hero? He didn't win a single military campaign and would have been in jail or death if the Hrvatska Garda didn't stop obliterating the pathetic rest of his genocide entity. He was only successful in murdering unarmed civilians, whether they were in Srebrenica or kids playing in Sarajevo. If you would call this man a hero and you just confirm that your are the bottom of the barrel of all peoples in the world.

Rote Kapelle

pre 12 godina

Top, 27 May

"fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case …
*** Yes I agree cause most Russians believe Hodor deserves death sentence. Not for the stolen Billions and not for being an American agent of influence. At least as Jew he don’t have to love Russia. Not for the attempt to sell strategic Ukos to the Yankees. He should be hanged up for dozenz of people killed at his command during Eltsyn.

Stalin (responsible for millions of killings) a hero and defender of Russia, too.

**** Stop this nonsece please ! During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it. For your better understanding the figure includes all the criminals shot down and all the traitors and military criminals shot down during crushing the Wermacht.

Disgusting, simply disgusting

**** Yes I agree you really are cause you must be alive today because Mr Stalin had set your country free. Don’t you think you are something better than 60-70% of the Russians one way or another respecting most of the things he had done ? When Europe lived in the borders Stalin scheduled with Mr. Churchill THERE WERE NO BLOODSHEDS … Disgusting, simply disgusting ! Unthankfulness is really disgusting and repeating the Cold War refrains and manthras does not tribute to you intellect and education. You exist because of the USSR headed by Mr. Dzhugashvili. This Ossetian saved the whole of the world to let the downshifters to bark whenever they want.

*** As for General Colonel Leonid Ivashov he is a very noble and educated man ! He was one of the few Russian Generals to plan the Pristina air port operation. Every Serbian will tell you what moral support those 200 peace makers brought to the victim nation. By the way their commander was a Muslim and now is the President of the Ingushetia Region of Russia.

icj1

pre 12 godina

"Russia's Ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin believes that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

AGREE 100 PERCENT!!!
(lowe, 27 May 2011 15:13)


Unfortunately, Russia does not agree with Rogozin. Russia did not say that the tribunal is there to prosecute “enemies of Serbs, and NATO”, Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law.

Top

pre 12 godina

So I am guessing that you don't want a fair trial for Mladic for reasons you have just specified.
(Peggy, 28 May 2011 04:57)

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...

Moshe Levine

pre 12 godina

As for General Colonel Leonid Ivashov he is a very noble and educated man ! He was one of the few Russian Generals to plan the Pristina air port operation. Every Serbian will tell you what moral support those 200 peace makers brought to the victim nation. By the way their commander was a Muslim and now is the President of the Ingushetia Region of Russia.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Little good did the failed invasion by the Russians do, at Pristina airport. General Colonel Ivashov ended up with egg on his face when his troops had to beg for food and water from the British NATO command. Shortly after having been assigned to polish American soldier's boots in NATO, the Russians quit and went home with their tail's between their legs.

icj1

pre 12 godina

During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Wow, those 890k were the lucky ones to get the sentence... for the other millions that small burocratic step was correctly deemed unesseccesary; why all of that red tape for nothing ?!

jla

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...

You do realize, of course, that you just extrapolated 8000 murders from a dubious video of a hand full of victim and then placed the blame on somebody who wasn't anywhere near the aledged location, don't you?

Goran.

pre 12 godina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyh_AWtgwjw

Very interesting video/s =) but the music in the background is a bit que and the translations on the video are not complete and at times incorrect.

Goni_from_illyria

pre 12 godina

Moscow asks for Hague to give a fair trial to Mladic.

What a joke!!!

Moscow fails to give its ordinary citizens a fair trial, yet they ask to give a fair trial to Mladic, who has ordered the killings of 100 of thousands of Yougosllaves (non Serbs).

Real joke this is, and more so for B92 to even print this article here.

lowe

pre 12 godina

"Unfortunately, Russia does not agree with Rogozin. Russia did not say that the tribunal is there to prosecute “enemies of Serbs, and NATO”, Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law.
(icj1, 28 May 2011 05:48)"

I merely agreed with Rogozin, which should be abundantly clear from my post.

There is nothing in the article that clearly stated whether the Russia agrees or disagrees with Rogozin -- if you have your sources, do share so that readers can evaluate them.

My opinion about this however, is that it is unlikely for any serving ambassador to make public statements that his bosses do not agree with.

lowe

pre 12 godina

“Well, I apologize if Russia saying one thing and Rogozin saying another thing was interpreted by me as "disagreement". I'm leaving it to you to find a more correct English word to define such a thing. “

What exactly did "Russia" say that contradicted Rogozin??????? No need to apologize – just provide the proof, assuming you can. And how do you define “Russia”????? Do you mean the government? As I understand it, a serving ambassador is part of the government too, right?


“Well, UNSC Resolution 827 approved, among others, by Russia, says that ICTY is established "for the sole purpose of prosecuting persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law".

Whereas Rogozin says "that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed"

So the two statements do not agree with each other. Just consider that NATO is not a "person" as Russia, among others, requires in Resolution 827. But Rogozin disagrees; he still wants NATO to face justice at the Tribunal. So either Russia or Rogozin is right... but not both “

Perhaps Rogozin considered Nato bombing of Serbia to be a serious violation of international humanitarian law, and that Nato's military leaders should therefore be brought to the ICTY. And so far not a single one of his superiors have brought him to task publicly over the issue as far as I know. So where is the proof that his bosses disagreed with him?


“I'm not in the mind of his bosses, but, I leave that to your mind-reading capabilities well demonstrated in the past.
(icj1, 1 June 2011 04:00)”

Of course you do not know the mind of his bosses, so how can you conclude in the first place that they disagreed with Rogozin? And as I asked you earlier, how do you define “Russia” in the first place???

I don’t read minds, I give opinions. You on the other hand, have demonstrated a tendency to make outrageous claims in the past.

Peggy

pre 12 godina

Russians demanding "fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case. How can you take those opinions seriously.
(Top, 27 May 2011 16:55)
============================

So I am guessing that you don't want a fair trial for Mladic for reasons you have just specified.

Looks like Russia is more pro Serb than Tadic and the rest of his traitors are.

Peggy

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...
(Top, 28 May 2011 10:31)
============================

That's some imagination you have there grandma.

Funny how all who died while waiting for a trial and all who are imprisoned there for years and years without a verdict happen to be Serbs.
But hey, your version of justice is obviously so much more accurate than mine.
Nothing suspicious there alright.

lowe

pre 12 godina

“"Perhaps" ?! I don't know... As I said before I don't have mind reading capabilities. I judge by what people do or say. He said "NATO" has to face justice. And I was referring to what he actually said: "NATO". Whereas you want to read his mind and refer to what he might have wanted to say. “

He was probably replying to a reporter’s question. not writing a precise legal report. It is unreasonable for you to expect him to give a reply that included a long, exact list of Nato names.


“Well, Russia approved a document at the UN that says differently. So diagreed with him.”

YOU may disagree with him. But how does Russian approval of the UN document come to be construed as disagreeing with him? Show me the precise parts of the document that stated that it did NOT apply to anyone from Nato.


“Because they acted to approve something that does not agree with what Rogozin says”

Wrong again! You stated that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. In the first place, in order to disagree with someone, you need to be aware of what that person said or did in order to be able to disagree with him. When the UN document was approved back in 1993, the Russians were NOT aware back then of what someone called Rogozin will be saying in 2011. The Russians back then could therefore not have known about Rogozin to be able to disagree with him. They are not fortunate like you to have a fortune teller to predict the future for them.

Secondly, I cannot see how the UN document itself exempted Nato people in any way. I’m of the view therefore that this document does not contradict Rogozin.


“Government as represented by its authorized representatives”

Hah! You just contradicted yourself! So your “Russia” refers to the Russian government. And pray tell, isn’t a serving ambassador like Rogozin therefore part of this government????? So you are in fact saying that Russia does not agree with Russia!

Do you also realize another inconsistency in what you wrote? You stated that “Unfortunately Russia DOES NOT agree with Rogozin”. (capital letters are mine for emphasis). You were thus referring to the Russian government (as clarified by you above) of TODAY, not the government back in 1993! For someone who had belittled my poor English that doesn't meet your lofty standards, you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past. As I already told you, I'm not aware that the Russian governemnt of TODAY had voiced any disagreement so far with Rogozin's words. In any case, he is part of the present Russian government.




“Well, if you say "Perhaps Rogozin considered...", then you are reading his mind, otherwise how would you know what he considered if he did not say it ?!
(icj1, 3 June 2011 06:46)”

Yes, I am giving my opinion of what Rogozin might have thought. I did NOT claimed to be able to read his mind. That’s why I used the word “Perhaps”. I’m sure your favorite Merriam-Webster has the definition of that word if you would care to check.

lowe

pre 12 godina

“Of course I expected him to give a list of names (not long, I did not say that) since he was speaking about a tribunal. Otherwise if he does not have a list, nobody forced him to say anything. “

Well, then your expectations are unreasonable as I already told you. I doubted that even Washington or Pristina mentioned individual names every time they answer reporters’ questions about the tribunal or other things.


“Come on lowe :) you are so skillful in trying to sneak in questions about a different thing. I said that resolution 827 excludes “Nato” not “anyone from Nato” that you are asking about. On that we agree… nobody from Nato, or for that matter, nobody of the 6B+ people in the world, is excluded from the ICTY’s jurisdiction. But Rogozin did not say “anyone from Nato”; he said “Nato”. “

I don’t sneak in anything. I merely asked you to show me the relevant provision in that UN document that exempted those from Nato – which you have failed to do so. Which therefore makes your statement that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin “ a false one. When Rogozin answered the reporter’s question, of course he was referring to people in Nato –- Nato is not a robot except in your unique dreams.


“Dude, for your information, 827 is still in force so it does not matter on whether Russia approved it 18 years or 180 years ago. It is the law. “

Did I say that 827 is not in force? What I did was to ask you to show me the provision in it that stated that those in Nato are not liable. Which you have utterly failed to do so as I already pointed out above.

Moreover how can the Russians back in 1993 disagree with Rogozin when, firstly, they could not have predicted what he would say in 2011? As I said, you are the only person I know who relies on a fortune teller, but don’t be absurd to assume everyone else also have their own soothsayers. Secondly and more importantly, where does 827 itself excuse those from Nato? Finally, your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was made in the present tense which referred to the Russian government today – Rogozin was answering the reporter on behalf of the Russian government. ie. He is the Russian government in that context and so I would even dare say that the Russian government not only does not disagree with him but agrees with him!


“I don’t see it, too. Res 827 does not exempt any person in the world, Nato people or not. But Rogozin did not say “Nato people”, but “Nato” and that is excluded by Res 827. “

And as I already told you, Nato is not a robot. It is run by people. And it is those people who could be liable under 827. So where is the disagreement since Rogozin is speaking for the Russian government?


“Oh my god, how predictable you are :). I knew exactly this was going to be your reply… ha, ha, ha… A serving ambassador can represent as much as his credentials allow. So, we have the Russian ambassador at the UNSC that approves one thing, and the Russian ambassador at a press conference that says another thing. I know that credentials are checked at the UN; I can’t tell that for a press conference. So between the two ambassadors, one thing is sure: the UN one was representing Russia. Now, if you think that Rogozin represents Russia, and the UN ambassador does not, that’s fine, too. In that case I’ll say that Russia disagrees with the UN amabassador.”

So can you show me evidence that the Russian ambassador at the UNSC voiced his disagreement over what Rogozin said????? Rogozin is serving ambassador for Russia to Nato (of all people!) – he therefore represented Russia when he replied to that reporter. And none of his superiors had repudiated what he said. So what he said on behalf of the Russian government still stands. The Russian government therefore agrees with him. And your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” is therefore FALSE!


“Immaterial ! Changing Russia’s government, does not change the fact that Russia voted for resolution 827. No need to deal with the rest of your statement as it does not make any sense. States cannot get out of international agreements or undo their votes by saying, well we changed government now so everything the prior government did is null and void :) “

Not immaterial at all! As I told you, 827 applies to those in Nato too and is therefore not at variance with what Rogozin said. As for the rest of my statements, they made perfect sense to me and, moreover, they exposed the big flaw in YOUR argument which was probably why you were so eager to gloss over them.

You are someone who like to hold people to their exact words. Well, I am now holding you to your EXACT words! You were referring to the CURRENT government ONLY in view of the present tense in your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. And since Rogozin is in the current government and his bosses did not disagree with him, it means that they accepted what he said on their behalf. So they agreed with him and hence that statement of yours that this government does not agree with him is false!


“Sure, and I say that Rogozin PERHAPS did not know what resolution 827 said. And we can continue with other PERHAPS if you want. Nobody will be able to solve, except Rogozin himself, what PERHAPS is correct. The only thing that is a fact is that Rogozin did say “tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."
(icj1, 4 June 2011 20:14)”

Yes you can opine that about Rogozin if you wish, just as I was giving my opinion about him earlier. And the fact remains that your hallowed 827 does not give exemption to anybody from Nato. The facts are also that Rogozin is in the present Russian government and was therefore replying for the Russian government to the reporter’s question.

lowe

pre 12 godina

icj1,

Further to my reply to you that I submitted to B92 a short while ago, I must say that for someone like you to always insist on EXACTLY what was said by somebody, it is utterly amazing and INEXCUSABLE that you should be guilty of not bothering to find out, in this case, what Rogozin actually said. Instead you merely took at face value a report's brief paraphrase of what he told a reporter.


If you had bothered to research your facts, you will easily come across more detailed news reports of what Rogozin actually said. For example, this was how an Arabic news report quoted him:

[Start of Quote]

"However Russia’s ambassador to NATO called for NATO generals to be tried alongside Mladic.

"But Serbia will not feel his guilt until ... it sees that members of the international community who shot at peaceful civilians are punished,” often outspoken ambassador Dmitry Rogozin told Moscow Echo radio.

“We should be talking about the responsibility of NATO generals,” he added.
[End of Quote]

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/26/150673.html?PHPSESSID=22m5erkdkhso3ouqmg31iuch55

So even if I were to, for argument's sake, accept your strange notion that Nato is some robot whose actions are self-automated and entirely independent of the people running this robot, it is clear that Rogozin talked about Nato people. So your claim that he did not is utterly FALSE in any case!


Moreover I might as well go all the way now and tell you also that your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was not the only one that was false in your original post on 28 May. You had also initially stated on that "Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law." This is also FALSE as the tribunal prosecutes violators and NOT violations -- again I think I have the right to hold you to the same high English grammatical standard that you expect of others.

So I think I have clearly shown what you wrote on this thread to be FALSE. As false as the last time in which you also mocked me for being ignorant in not knowing that Morocco applied for EU entry in 1987 -- when anyone with a basic knowledge of the EU should surely know that the EU did not legally exist prior to the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.

lowe

pre 12 godina

“Unreasonable to expect un ambassador to be unprepared when expressing his opinion to journalists ?! “

Of course it is unreasonable. In any case as I already shown you, Rogozin did talk about Nato’s people and so your claim that he did not is pure FALSEHOOD! No way you are going to be able to wriggle out of your mistake!



“Of course” because you say so ?! I can say that, of course, he was referring to the moon and the stars :) “

Because I was able to prove to you with that Arabic news report link that he really did refer to Nato’s generals and thereby demolished your entire argument entirely. Okay, how about you now prove that he was referring to the moon and stars?????? But I wouldn’t be wasting my time waiting for your “proof” – this is yet another one of your FALSE claims.


“You did say that “you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past” and I’m telling you that “past” does not matter because 827 is still in force.

Also, I did not fail anything because I told you already that 827 does not exclude anybody in the world from its subject matter. But Rogozin spoke about “Nato” and not persons…”

Well, can you dispute that your statement was made in the present tense and therefore referring to the future? Don‘t forget that you like to pick on others over grammar and so you should be perfection personified on this yourself -- and I am just referring to your exact words.

You are so WRONG AGAIN about Rogozin not referring to persons – he talked about Nato generals (whom I like to think are human beings despite what they did to Serbia) and you are like the classic ostrich with its head firmly stuck inside the sand desperately shutting your eyes to clear cut evidence


“Well, they then better find some more capable people for ambassadors who are more predictable that will follow Moscow’s policy ! “

Show me how Rogozin’s detailed words is a contradiction of Moscow’s policy. Did any of his bosses repudiate what he said? This statement being yet another FALSITY on your part!


“Well, NATO is a subject of many laws… It’s just not subject of resolution 827. The disagreement is in the fact that Rogozin made Nato a subject of 827, as well, whereas Russia did not. “

Yet another FALSE statement by you! Rogozin did NOT make Nato a subject of 827 since he talked about Nato’s generals.


“UNSC Document S/PV.3217 page 6 says that Mr. Yuli Vorontsov (presiding the Security Council for the Russian Federation) voted in favor of Resolution 827 which makes only persons subject of the ICTY thus disagreeing with Mr. Rogozin who also makes organizations (Nato) subject of the ICTY. So, either Mr. Vorontsov or Rogozin represents Russia’s position, but not both. Therefore my statement is not FALSE.”

Well, Rogozin talked about Nato generals who can be liable under 827, right? So your statement that he did not is absolutely FALSE …… this being yet another of your string of false statements so far!


“Of course it is in variance because Rogozin did not say “those in Nato” but “Nato”. “

And pray tell, who are the Nato generals if they do not fall under “those in Nato”???????????



“I did not say “current government”; I said “Russia”… Not sure what you are speaking about “

Desperately trying to feign ignorance now? No way I am going to let you off the hook. Let me refresh your failing memory – on 3 June 2011 you defined Russia as the government. And that particular sentence of yours was made in the PRESENT tense. So how can I not conclude that you must be referring to the present government?



“Of course, nobody from Nato is exempted. However that was not what Rogozin said. He said “Nato” not “anybody from Nato” thus being in disagreement with Russia. “

Gosh, you keep insisting what he did not refer to people from Nato even in the face of clear cut evidence that he did. Your denial however cannot alter the facts which make a mockery of your FALSE statements.


“Of course I will refer exactly the the words, unless those who said those words come and speak differently. “

You have mocked others for not doing their homework – the classic case of the pot calling the kettle black! You FAILED to find out what he actually said in that interview which rendered your claim that he was not talking about those in Nato INVALID and FALSE!


“I’m glad that Rogozin finally learned that Nato is not a subject of ICTY, but “Nato Generals” (or, for that matter, everybody in the world) is if they committed serious violations of IHL in former Yugoslavia “

Actually he did not “finally learned” (yet one more FALSE statement from you!!!!!!) …… the Arabic news report quoted what Rogozin actually said in that interview while B92 only paraphrased him. And you were negligent in not finding out what he actually said before you mocked him for his lack of knowledge – and you ended up making a fool of yourself instead in the process because of your own omission.

“I did not say that Nato is a robot. I did say Nato is not a subject of 827, but it is subject of other laws. And I am not false at all in regards to the words B92 reported, which I assume stand as long as B92 does not issue a correction. As I said, I’m glad that Mr. Rogozin, in the interview for Moscow Echo radio remembers what Russia’s policy is and mentions “Nato generals” and not “Nato”, “enemies of serbs”, etc, as he did in the citation from B92. “

It is YOUR responsibility to check your facts before passing judgment on Rogozin. This you have FAILED to do so. You claimed that in that particular interview which Rogozin gave that he did not refer to those in Nato. The facts are that he referred to people in Nato in that interview and so your statement that he did not do so is FALSE !!!!



“That's a mistype ("n" for "r") that does not affect any of my arguments where I repeatedly said that I was referring to "persons". But B92 did not mention any other words from Mr. Rogozin to make it clear that he was referring to people when he said "Nato". And sure, I don’t have any problem with Mr. Rogozin coming out and saying, sorry, he misspoke and he meant “Nato generals” and not “Nato”.”

Nope. You like to hold people to their EXACT words and so why should you have the privilege of being exempt from your own high standards????? Anyone who check your favorite Merriam-Webster will see clearly the difference between the “violators” and “violations”. And you were referring to the latter which makes your statement FALSE once again!



“Dude, EU is the legal successor of the European Communities. What you’re saying is like saying Kosovo was part of Serbia-Montenegro, but not Serbia. If Morocco had become member of the ECs, it would have been member, ipso jure, of the EU. So you've not showing anything false from what I said (except for gramatical errors which we can find a lot on both sides if you want, but I don't have any intention on wasting time on that unless they are not clarified and affect the argument).
(icj1, 12 June 2011 20:41)”

You claimed that Morocco applied to join the EU (and NOT the European Communities) in 1987. Your claim is FALSE since the EU did NOT legally exist back in 1987!

The 1992 Maastrict treaty stated the intentions of the signatories to be:

“HAVE DECIDED to establish a European Union and to this end have designated as their plenipotentiaries: “ ……. followed by the list of heads of states at that time. So they only decided to establish the EU in 1992.

Moreover, Article A of this treaty began with “By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called ‘the Union’.”

These provisions in the Maastrict Treaty clearly show that the EU was only intended to be formed legally in 1992 and did not exist back in 1987 thereby making your statement about Morocco FALSE!

Just as you demanded of Rogozin to be crystal clear that he was referring to people in Nato (which he did and so proved your claim FALSE), so you have, in this case, failed miserably in meeting your own standards when you claimed that Morocco applied to join the legally non-existent EU in 1987. Indeed, why should you, of all people, be exempt from your own standards?

New Zealander

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...
(Top, 28 May 2011 10:31)

Strange ideas you have, I'm not even a Serb and I think the Hague is biased. Why not indict Bush and Blair for the 500,000 in Iraq? You might want to read a bit of this Hague transcript, (Hint press F3 and search
"Torture") http://www.ictytranscripts.org/TrialTranscripts/HTML/transe54/02-07-26-IT.html

icj1

pre 12 godina

There is nothing in the article that clearly stated whether the Russia agrees or disagrees with Rogozin
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

Well, I apologize if Russia saying one thing and Rogozin saying another thing was interpreted by me as "disagreement". I'm leaving it to you to find a more correct English word to define such a thing.



-- if you have your sources, do share so that readers can evaluate them.
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

Well, UNSC Resolution 827 approved, among others, by Russia, says that ICTY is established "for the sole purpose of prosecuting persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law".

Whereas Rogozin says "that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed"

So the two statements do not agree with each other. Just consider that NATO is not a "person" as Russia, among others, requires in Resolution 827. But Rogozin disagrees; he still wants NATO to face justice at the Tribunal. So either Russia or Rogozin is right... but not both



My opinion about this however, is that it is unlikely for any serving ambassador to make public statements that his bosses do not agree with.
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

I'm not in the mind of his bosses, but, I leave that to your mind-reading capabilities well demonstrated in the past.

icj1

pre 12 godina

Perhaps Rogozin considered Nato bombing of Serbia to be a serious violation of international humanitarian law, and that Nato's military leaders should therefore be brought to the ICTY.
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

"Perhaps" ?! I don't know... As I said before I don't have mind reading capabilities. I judge by what people do or say. He said "NATO" has to face justice. And I was referring to what he actually said: "NATO". Whereas you want to read his mind and refer to what he might have wanted to say.



And so far not a single one of his superiors have brought him to task publicly over the issue as far as I know. So where is the proof that his bosses disagreed with him?
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Well, Russia approved a document at the UN that says differently. So diagreed with him.



Of course you do not know the mind of his bosses, so how can you conclude in the first place that they disagreed with Rogozin?
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Because they acted to approve something that does not agree with what Rogozin says



And as I asked you earlier, how do you define “Russia” in the first place???
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Government as represented by its authorized representatives



I don’t read minds, I give opinions. You on the other hand, have demonstrated a tendency to make outrageous claims in the past.
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Well, if you say "Perhaps Rogozin considered...", then you are reading his mind, otherwise how would you know what he considered if he did not say it ?!

icj1

pre 12 godina

He was probably replying to a reporter’s question. not writing a precise legal report. It is unreasonable for you to expect him to give a reply that included a long, exact list of Nato names.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Of course I expected him to give a list of names (not long, I did not say that) since he was speaking about a tribunal. Otherwise if he does not have a list, nobody forced him to say anything.



YOU may disagree with him. But how does Russian approval of the UN document come to be construed as disagreeing with him? Show me the precise parts of the document that stated that it did NOT apply to anyone from Nato.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Come on lowe :) you are so skillful in trying to sneak in questions about a different thing. I said that resolution 827 excludes “Nato” not “anyone from Nato” that you are asking about. On that we agree… nobody from Nato, or for that matter, nobody of the 6B+ people in the world, is excluded from the ICTY’s jurisdiction. But Rogozin did not say “anyone from Nato”; he said “Nato”.



Wrong again! You stated that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. In the first place, in order to disagree with someone, you need to be aware of what that person said or did in order to be able to disagree with him. When the UN document was approved back in 1993, the Russians were NOT aware back then of what someone called Rogozin will be saying in 2011. The Russians back then could therefore not have known about Rogozin to be able to disagree with him. They are not fortunate like you to have a fortune teller to predict the future for them.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Dude, for your information, 827 is still in force so it does not matter on whether Russia approved it 18 years or 180 years ago. It is the law.



Secondly, I cannot see how the UN document itself exempted Nato people in any way. I’m of the view therefore that this document does not contradict Rogozin.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

I don’t see it, too. Res 827 does not exempt any person in the world, Nato people or not. But Rogozin did not say “Nato people”, but “Nato” and that is excluded by Res 827.



Hah! You just contradicted yourself! So your “Russia” refers to the Russian government. And pray tell, isn’t a serving ambassador like Rogozin therefore part of this government????? So you are in fact saying that Russia does not agree with Russia!
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Oh my god, how predictable you are :). I knew exactly this was going to be your reply… ha, ha, ha… A serving ambassador can represent as much as his credentials allow. So, we have the Russian ambassador at the UNSC that approves one thing, and the Russian ambassador at a press conference that says another thing. I know that credentials are checked at the UN; I can’t tell that for a press conference. So between the two ambassadors, one thing is sure: the UN one was representing Russia. Now, if you think that Rogozin represents Russia, and the UN ambassador does not, that’s fine, too. In that case I’ll say that Russia disagrees with the UN amabassador.



Do you also realize another inconsistency in what you wrote? You stated that “Unfortunately Russia DOES NOT agree with Rogozin”. (capital letters are mine for emphasis). You were thus referring to the Russian government (as clarified by you above) of TODAY, not the government back in 1993!
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Immaterial ! Changing Russia’s government, does not change the fact that Russia voted for resolution 827. No need to deal with the rest of your statement as it does not make any sense. States cannot get out of international agreements or undo their votes by saying, well we changed government now so everything the prior government did is null and void :)



Yes, I am giving my opinion of what Rogozin might have thought. I did NOT claimed to be able to read his mind. That’s why I used the word “Perhaps”. I’m sure your favorite Merriam-Webster has the definition of that word if you would care to check.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Sure, and I say that Rogozin PERHAPS did not know what resolution 827 said. And we can continue with other PERHAPS if you want. Nobody will be able to solve, except Rogozin himself, what PERHAPS is correct. The only thing that is a fact is that Rogozin did say “tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

icj1

pre 12 godina

Well, then your expectations are unreasonable as I already told you.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Unreasonable to expect un ambassador to be unprepared when expressing his opinion to journalists ?!



When Rogozin answered the reporter’s question, of course he was referring to people in Nato
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

“Of course” because you say so ?! I can say that, of course, he was referring to the moon and the stars :)



Did I say that 827 is not in force? What I did was to ask you to show me the provision in it that stated that those in Nato are not liable. Which you have utterly failed to do so as I already pointed out above.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

You did say that “you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past” and I’m telling you that “past” does not matter because 827 is still in force.

Also, I did not fail anything because I told you already that 827 does not exclude anybody in the world from its subject matter. But Rogozin spoke about “Nato” and not persons…



Moreover how can the Russians back in 1993 disagree with Rogozin when, firstly, they could not have predicted what he would say in 2011?
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Well, they then better find some more capable people for ambassadors who are more predictable that will follow Moscow’s policy !



And as I already told you, Nato is not a robot. It is run by people. And it is those people who could be liable under 827. So where is the disagreement since Rogozin is speaking for the Russian government?
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Well, NATO is a subject of many laws… It’s just not subject of resolution 827. The disagreement is in the fact that Rogozin made Nato a subject of 827, as well, whereas Russia did not.



So can you show me evidence that the Russian ambassador at the UNSC voiced his disagreement over what Rogozin said????? Rogozin is serving ambassador for Russia to Nato (of all people!) – he therefore represented Russia when he replied to that reporter. And none of his superiors had repudiated what he said. So what he said on behalf of the Russian government still stands. The Russian government therefore agrees with him. And your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” is therefore FALSE!
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

UNSC Document S/PV.3217 page 6 says that Mr. Yuli Vorontsov (presiding the Security Council for the Russian Federation) voted in favor of Resolution 827 which makes only persons subject of the ICTY thus disagreeing with Mr. Rogozin who also makes organizations (Nato) subject of the ICTY. So, either Mr. Vorontsov or Rogozin represents Russia’s position, but not both. Therefore my statement is not FALSE.



Not immaterial at all! As I told you, 827 applies to those in Nato too and is therefore not at variance with what Rogozin said.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course it is in variance because Rogozin did not say “those in Nato” but “Nato”.



You are someone who like to hold people to their exact words. Well, I am now holding you to your EXACT words! You were referring to the CURRENT government ONLY in view of the present tense in your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

I did not say “current government”; I said “Russia”… Not sure what you are speaking about



Yes you can opine that about Rogozin if you wish, just as I was giving my opinion about him earlier. And the fact remains that your hallowed 827 does not give exemption to anybody from Nato. The facts are also that Rogozin is in the present Russian government and was therefore replying for the Russian government to the reporter’s question.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course, nobody from Nato is exempted. However that was not what Rogozin said. He said “Nato” not “anybody from Nato” thus being in disagreement with Russia.



Further to my reply to you that I submitted to B92 a short while ago, I must say that for someone like you to always insist on EXACTLY what was said by somebody, it is utterly amazing and INEXCUSABLE that you should be guilty of not bothering to find out, in this case, what Rogozin actually said. Instead you merely took at face value a report's brief paraphrase of what he told a reporter.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course I will refer exactly the the words, unless those who said those words come and speak differently.



If you had bothered to research your facts, you will easily come across more detailed news reports of what Rogozin actually said. For example, this was how an Arabic news report quoted him:

We don’t know whether it is the same interview. I was referring to the interview B92 referred to.

[Start of Quote]

"However Russia’s ambassador to NATO called for NATO generals to be tried alongside Mladic.

"But Serbia will not feel his guilt until ... it sees that members of the international community who shot at peaceful civilians are punished,” often outspoken ambassador Dmitry Rogozin told Moscow Echo radio.

“We should be talking about the responsibility of NATO generals,” he added.
[End of Quote]

[link]
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

I’m glad that Rogozin finally learned that Nato is not a subject of ICTY, but “Nato Generals” (or, for that matter, everybody in the world) is if they committed serious violations of IHL in former Yugoslavia



So even if I were to, for argument's sake, accept your strange notion that Nato is some robot whose actions are self-automated and entirely independent of the people running this robot, it is clear that Rogozin talked about Nato people. So your claim that he did not is utterly FALSE in any case!
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

I did not say that Nato is a robot. I did say Nato is not a subject of 827, but it is subject of other laws. And I am not false at all in regards to the words B92 reported, which I assume stand as long as B92 does not issue a correction. As I said, I’m glad that Mr. Rogozin, in the interview for Moscow Echo radio remembers what Russia’s policy is and mentions “Nato generals” and not “Nato”, “enemies of serbs”, etc, as he did in the citation from B92.



Moreover I might as well go all the way now and tell you also that your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was not the only one that was false in your original post on 28 May. You had also initially stated on that "Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law." This is also FALSE as the tribunal prosecutes violators and NOT violations -- again I think I have the right to hold you to the same high English grammatical standard that you expect of others.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)


That's a mistype ("n" for "r") that does not affect any of my arguments where I repeatedly said that I was referring to "persons". But B92 did not mention any other words from Mr. Rogozin to make it clear that he was referring to people when he said "Nato". And sure, I don’t have any problem with Mr. Rogozin coming out and saying, sorry, he misspoke and he meant “Nato generals” and not “Nato”.



So I think I have clearly shown what you wrote on this thread to be FALSE. As false as the last time in which you also mocked me for being ignorant in not knowing that Morocco applied for EU entry in 1987 -- when anyone with a basic knowledge of the EU should surely know that the EU did not legally exist prior to the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

Dude, EU is the legal successor of the European Communities. What you’re saying is like saying Kosovo was part of Serbia-Montenegro, but not Serbia. If Morocco had become member of the ECs, it would have been member, ipso jure, of the EU. So you've not showing anything false from what I said (except for gramatical errors which we can find a lot on both sides if you want, but I don't have any intention on wasting time on that unless they are not clarified and affect the argument).

Top

pre 12 godina

"Leonid Ivashov considers Ratko Mladić a hero, and says his extradition to the Hague Tribunal would be a mistake."

Persons like him probably consider Stalin (responsible for millions of killings) a hero and defender of Russia, too. Disgusting, simply disgusting.

Russians demanding "fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case. How can you take those opinions seriously.

lowe

pre 12 godina

"Russia's Ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin believes that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

AGREE 100 PERCENT!!!

Nelli_Canada

pre 12 godina

The court, said Kosachov, has been "curiously passive" when it comes to such crimes as human organ trafficking in Kosovo - atrocities believed to be perpetrated by ethnic Albanians.


Leave Albanians alone, move on dudes coz Kosova will soon be a NATO member and there's nothing you can do about it. KSF is on its' way of becoming professional Army, bye bye Russia:),

Francisco

pre 12 godina

The lead paragraph of this article says, "Russia expects that the trial of ex-military leader of Serbs in Bosnia, Ratko Mladic, will be just and impartial, the Russian Foreign Ministry said on Friday."

Why would they expect that? The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result. The proceedings at The Hague have never been "just and impartial", why would they start now?

The entire purpose of this trial is to vindicate NATO policy in the regoin. The purpose of the Gotovina trial was to distance the Americans from his crimes and put all of the blame on the Croats. The purpose of the Oric trial was to whitewash his crimes so they wouldn't interfere with the Srebrenica narritave the Tribunal wants to cultivate. They never wanted a conviction in that trial, why do you think the prosecutor never called guys like Morrilion or any of the journalists that Oric boasted about his crimes to as witnesses?

Some of the stupidest things I've ever read in my life I've found in the pages of the ICTY's verdicts, like speculation that Serbia wanted to be bombed by NATO in 1999 so it would have deniability to expell Albanians from Kosovo. Or that in Srebrenica you can tell how somebody died from their DNA. Or what about Judge Parker's report on Milosevic's death where he says the doctors didn't tell Milosevic about the results of his own blood tests for several months (when they first found non-prescribed drugs in his system that interfered with his hypertension medication) on the excuse that Dutch medical confidentiality laws prevented them from telling the patient the result of his own blood test. Then two weeks before that we had Milan Babic's "suicide" in the Hague jail where the ligature mark on his neck didn't match the belt they said he hanged himself with.

There is no reason to expect that Mladic or anyone else would get a fair trial at The Hague. It looks to me like Mladic had a stroke. He doesn't sound right when he talks and his arm seems to be paralized. There's no way he can defend himself in that condition, and when the Hague tried to assign Karadzic a lawyer (against his will) they tried to give him the KLA's lawyer. Mladic is going to be railroaded.

Zoran

pre 12 godina

He also quoted statistics that showed the Hague Tribunal's verdicts were handed down to Serbs in 96.8 percent of all cases. At the same time, the Russian official noted, that war crimes court saw several odd acquittals of persons who represented other sides in the conflicts.
--
Lets not forget that is has cost about $50 million per Serbian conviction so it has been a very expensive exercise for the NATO countries at the forefront of its funding considering it has only proven to be a kangaroo court with no credibility.

Rote Kapelle

pre 12 godina

Top, 27 May

"fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case …
*** Yes I agree cause most Russians believe Hodor deserves death sentence. Not for the stolen Billions and not for being an American agent of influence. At least as Jew he don’t have to love Russia. Not for the attempt to sell strategic Ukos to the Yankees. He should be hanged up for dozenz of people killed at his command during Eltsyn.

Stalin (responsible for millions of killings) a hero and defender of Russia, too.

**** Stop this nonsece please ! During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it. For your better understanding the figure includes all the criminals shot down and all the traitors and military criminals shot down during crushing the Wermacht.

Disgusting, simply disgusting

**** Yes I agree you really are cause you must be alive today because Mr Stalin had set your country free. Don’t you think you are something better than 60-70% of the Russians one way or another respecting most of the things he had done ? When Europe lived in the borders Stalin scheduled with Mr. Churchill THERE WERE NO BLOODSHEDS … Disgusting, simply disgusting ! Unthankfulness is really disgusting and repeating the Cold War refrains and manthras does not tribute to you intellect and education. You exist because of the USSR headed by Mr. Dzhugashvili. This Ossetian saved the whole of the world to let the downshifters to bark whenever they want.

*** As for General Colonel Leonid Ivashov he is a very noble and educated man ! He was one of the few Russian Generals to plan the Pristina air port operation. Every Serbian will tell you what moral support those 200 peace makers brought to the victim nation. By the way their commander was a Muslim and now is the President of the Ingushetia Region of Russia.

Peggy

pre 12 godina

Russians demanding "fair trials" is a joke, too, when you consider the political trials in Russia, for example in the Chodorowski case. How can you take those opinions seriously.
(Top, 27 May 2011 16:55)
============================

So I am guessing that you don't want a fair trial for Mladic for reasons you have just specified.

Looks like Russia is more pro Serb than Tadic and the rest of his traitors are.

Obilic

pre 12 godina

Its amazing that Russians are more Serbian than actual Serbs! Tadic please go away! Save what is left of our once proud nation! Sram te bilo!

JohnC.

pre 12 godina

Looks like Russia is more pro Serb than Tadic and the rest of his traitors are.
(Peggy, 28 May 2011 04:57)

Yeah, really? That is why the Russians withdrew troops from Kosovo, right?

Always very interesting to read from far-right-wing Serbs sitting in Western countries, telling Serbs in Serbia how to behave, so that they can continue to cheer in their Cetnik bars in the West.

Btw. why is Mladic a hero? He didn't win a single military campaign and would have been in jail or death if the Hrvatska Garda didn't stop obliterating the pathetic rest of his genocide entity. He was only successful in murdering unarmed civilians, whether they were in Srebrenica or kids playing in Sarajevo. If you would call this man a hero and you just confirm that your are the bottom of the barrel of all peoples in the world.

Top

pre 12 godina

So I am guessing that you don't want a fair trial for Mladic for reasons you have just specified.
(Peggy, 28 May 2011 04:57)

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...

icj1

pre 12 godina

"Russia's Ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin believes that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

AGREE 100 PERCENT!!!
(lowe, 27 May 2011 15:13)


Unfortunately, Russia does not agree with Rogozin. Russia did not say that the tribunal is there to prosecute “enemies of Serbs, and NATO”, Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law.

Moshe Levine

pre 12 godina

As for General Colonel Leonid Ivashov he is a very noble and educated man ! He was one of the few Russian Generals to plan the Pristina air port operation. Every Serbian will tell you what moral support those 200 peace makers brought to the victim nation. By the way their commander was a Muslim and now is the President of the Ingushetia Region of Russia.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Little good did the failed invasion by the Russians do, at Pristina airport. General Colonel Ivashov ended up with egg on his face when his troops had to beg for food and water from the British NATO command. Shortly after having been assigned to polish American soldier's boots in NATO, the Russians quit and went home with their tail's between their legs.

icj1

pre 12 godina

Perhaps Rogozin considered Nato bombing of Serbia to be a serious violation of international humanitarian law, and that Nato's military leaders should therefore be brought to the ICTY.
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

"Perhaps" ?! I don't know... As I said before I don't have mind reading capabilities. I judge by what people do or say. He said "NATO" has to face justice. And I was referring to what he actually said: "NATO". Whereas you want to read his mind and refer to what he might have wanted to say.



And so far not a single one of his superiors have brought him to task publicly over the issue as far as I know. So where is the proof that his bosses disagreed with him?
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Well, Russia approved a document at the UN that says differently. So diagreed with him.



Of course you do not know the mind of his bosses, so how can you conclude in the first place that they disagreed with Rogozin?
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Because they acted to approve something that does not agree with what Rogozin says



And as I asked you earlier, how do you define “Russia” in the first place???
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Government as represented by its authorized representatives



I don’t read minds, I give opinions. You on the other hand, have demonstrated a tendency to make outrageous claims in the past.
(lowe, 1 June 2011 15:36)

Well, if you say "Perhaps Rogozin considered...", then you are reading his mind, otherwise how would you know what he considered if he did not say it ?!

icj1

pre 12 godina

During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Wow, those 890k were the lucky ones to get the sentence... for the other millions that small burocratic step was correctly deemed unesseccesary; why all of that red tape for nothing ?!

Top

pre 12 godina

**** Stop this nonsece please ! During his last 17 years ( 1936-1953) in the USSR about 890 000 were sentenced to death. This figure is the only one and only the lack of political will stops Medveputin from declaring it. For your better understanding the figure includes all the criminals shot down and all the traitors and military criminals shot down during crushing the Wermacht.
(Rote Kapelle, 27 May 2011 22:43)

Yes, you are right, 'only' some 800,000 were sentenced to death in political trials, including priest, peasants, everyone who opposed him. And sometimes people were arbitrarily chosen by local Stalin secret police, just to fullfill the daily execution quote.

And Please add some additional millions who simply starved to death in his Gulag concentration camps. Plus some 100,000s who didn't survive the deportations/relocations to Sibiria. The first form of ethnic cleansing.

These numbers are minimum numbers, even admitted by Russia, nowadays. Independent historians estimate them to be at least twice or three times higher.

Okay, if you admire Stalin, no wonder that you admire Mladic. Well, some Germans and (other Neonazis, even in Israel) admire Hitler ;-)

Goni_from_illyria

pre 12 godina

Moscow asks for Hague to give a fair trial to Mladic.

What a joke!!!

Moscow fails to give its ordinary citizens a fair trial, yet they ask to give a fair trial to Mladic, who has ordered the killings of 100 of thousands of Yougosllaves (non Serbs).

Real joke this is, and more so for B92 to even print this article here.

icj1

pre 12 godina

There is nothing in the article that clearly stated whether the Russia agrees or disagrees with Rogozin
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

Well, I apologize if Russia saying one thing and Rogozin saying another thing was interpreted by me as "disagreement". I'm leaving it to you to find a more correct English word to define such a thing.



-- if you have your sources, do share so that readers can evaluate them.
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

Well, UNSC Resolution 827 approved, among others, by Russia, says that ICTY is established "for the sole purpose of prosecuting persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law".

Whereas Rogozin says "that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed"

So the two statements do not agree with each other. Just consider that NATO is not a "person" as Russia, among others, requires in Resolution 827. But Rogozin disagrees; he still wants NATO to face justice at the Tribunal. So either Russia or Rogozin is right... but not both



My opinion about this however, is that it is unlikely for any serving ambassador to make public statements that his bosses do not agree with.
(lowe, 28 May 2011 13:32)

I'm not in the mind of his bosses, but, I leave that to your mind-reading capabilities well demonstrated in the past.

icj1

pre 12 godina

Well, then your expectations are unreasonable as I already told you.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Unreasonable to expect un ambassador to be unprepared when expressing his opinion to journalists ?!



When Rogozin answered the reporter’s question, of course he was referring to people in Nato
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

“Of course” because you say so ?! I can say that, of course, he was referring to the moon and the stars :)



Did I say that 827 is not in force? What I did was to ask you to show me the provision in it that stated that those in Nato are not liable. Which you have utterly failed to do so as I already pointed out above.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

You did say that “you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past” and I’m telling you that “past” does not matter because 827 is still in force.

Also, I did not fail anything because I told you already that 827 does not exclude anybody in the world from its subject matter. But Rogozin spoke about “Nato” and not persons…



Moreover how can the Russians back in 1993 disagree with Rogozin when, firstly, they could not have predicted what he would say in 2011?
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Well, they then better find some more capable people for ambassadors who are more predictable that will follow Moscow’s policy !



And as I already told you, Nato is not a robot. It is run by people. And it is those people who could be liable under 827. So where is the disagreement since Rogozin is speaking for the Russian government?
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Well, NATO is a subject of many laws… It’s just not subject of resolution 827. The disagreement is in the fact that Rogozin made Nato a subject of 827, as well, whereas Russia did not.



So can you show me evidence that the Russian ambassador at the UNSC voiced his disagreement over what Rogozin said????? Rogozin is serving ambassador for Russia to Nato (of all people!) – he therefore represented Russia when he replied to that reporter. And none of his superiors had repudiated what he said. So what he said on behalf of the Russian government still stands. The Russian government therefore agrees with him. And your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” is therefore FALSE!
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

UNSC Document S/PV.3217 page 6 says that Mr. Yuli Vorontsov (presiding the Security Council for the Russian Federation) voted in favor of Resolution 827 which makes only persons subject of the ICTY thus disagreeing with Mr. Rogozin who also makes organizations (Nato) subject of the ICTY. So, either Mr. Vorontsov or Rogozin represents Russia’s position, but not both. Therefore my statement is not FALSE.



Not immaterial at all! As I told you, 827 applies to those in Nato too and is therefore not at variance with what Rogozin said.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course it is in variance because Rogozin did not say “those in Nato” but “Nato”.



You are someone who like to hold people to their exact words. Well, I am now holding you to your EXACT words! You were referring to the CURRENT government ONLY in view of the present tense in your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

I did not say “current government”; I said “Russia”… Not sure what you are speaking about



Yes you can opine that about Rogozin if you wish, just as I was giving my opinion about him earlier. And the fact remains that your hallowed 827 does not give exemption to anybody from Nato. The facts are also that Rogozin is in the present Russian government and was therefore replying for the Russian government to the reporter’s question.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course, nobody from Nato is exempted. However that was not what Rogozin said. He said “Nato” not “anybody from Nato” thus being in disagreement with Russia.



Further to my reply to you that I submitted to B92 a short while ago, I must say that for someone like you to always insist on EXACTLY what was said by somebody, it is utterly amazing and INEXCUSABLE that you should be guilty of not bothering to find out, in this case, what Rogozin actually said. Instead you merely took at face value a report's brief paraphrase of what he told a reporter.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 06:51)

Of course I will refer exactly the the words, unless those who said those words come and speak differently.



If you had bothered to research your facts, you will easily come across more detailed news reports of what Rogozin actually said. For example, this was how an Arabic news report quoted him:

We don’t know whether it is the same interview. I was referring to the interview B92 referred to.

[Start of Quote]

"However Russia’s ambassador to NATO called for NATO generals to be tried alongside Mladic.

"But Serbia will not feel his guilt until ... it sees that members of the international community who shot at peaceful civilians are punished,” often outspoken ambassador Dmitry Rogozin told Moscow Echo radio.

“We should be talking about the responsibility of NATO generals,” he added.
[End of Quote]

[link]
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

I’m glad that Rogozin finally learned that Nato is not a subject of ICTY, but “Nato Generals” (or, for that matter, everybody in the world) is if they committed serious violations of IHL in former Yugoslavia



So even if I were to, for argument's sake, accept your strange notion that Nato is some robot whose actions are self-automated and entirely independent of the people running this robot, it is clear that Rogozin talked about Nato people. So your claim that he did not is utterly FALSE in any case!
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

I did not say that Nato is a robot. I did say Nato is not a subject of 827, but it is subject of other laws. And I am not false at all in regards to the words B92 reported, which I assume stand as long as B92 does not issue a correction. As I said, I’m glad that Mr. Rogozin, in the interview for Moscow Echo radio remembers what Russia’s policy is and mentions “Nato generals” and not “Nato”, “enemies of serbs”, etc, as he did in the citation from B92.



Moreover I might as well go all the way now and tell you also that your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was not the only one that was false in your original post on 28 May. You had also initially stated on that "Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law." This is also FALSE as the tribunal prosecutes violators and NOT violations -- again I think I have the right to hold you to the same high English grammatical standard that you expect of others.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)


That's a mistype ("n" for "r") that does not affect any of my arguments where I repeatedly said that I was referring to "persons". But B92 did not mention any other words from Mr. Rogozin to make it clear that he was referring to people when he said "Nato". And sure, I don’t have any problem with Mr. Rogozin coming out and saying, sorry, he misspoke and he meant “Nato generals” and not “Nato”.



So I think I have clearly shown what you wrote on this thread to be FALSE. As false as the last time in which you also mocked me for being ignorant in not knowing that Morocco applied for EU entry in 1987 -- when anyone with a basic knowledge of the EU should surely know that the EU did not legally exist prior to the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.
(lowe, 5 June 2011 08:49)

Dude, EU is the legal successor of the European Communities. What you’re saying is like saying Kosovo was part of Serbia-Montenegro, but not Serbia. If Morocco had become member of the ECs, it would have been member, ipso jure, of the EU. So you've not showing anything false from what I said (except for gramatical errors which we can find a lot on both sides if you want, but I don't have any intention on wasting time on that unless they are not clarified and affect the argument).

Goran.

pre 12 godina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyh_AWtgwjw

Very interesting video/s =) but the music in the background is a bit que and the translations on the video are not complete and at times incorrect.

jla

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...

You do realize, of course, that you just extrapolated 8000 murders from a dubious video of a hand full of victim and then placed the blame on somebody who wasn't anywhere near the aledged location, don't you?

icj1

pre 12 godina

He was probably replying to a reporter’s question. not writing a precise legal report. It is unreasonable for you to expect him to give a reply that included a long, exact list of Nato names.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Of course I expected him to give a list of names (not long, I did not say that) since he was speaking about a tribunal. Otherwise if he does not have a list, nobody forced him to say anything.



YOU may disagree with him. But how does Russian approval of the UN document come to be construed as disagreeing with him? Show me the precise parts of the document that stated that it did NOT apply to anyone from Nato.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Come on lowe :) you are so skillful in trying to sneak in questions about a different thing. I said that resolution 827 excludes “Nato” not “anyone from Nato” that you are asking about. On that we agree… nobody from Nato, or for that matter, nobody of the 6B+ people in the world, is excluded from the ICTY’s jurisdiction. But Rogozin did not say “anyone from Nato”; he said “Nato”.



Wrong again! You stated that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. In the first place, in order to disagree with someone, you need to be aware of what that person said or did in order to be able to disagree with him. When the UN document was approved back in 1993, the Russians were NOT aware back then of what someone called Rogozin will be saying in 2011. The Russians back then could therefore not have known about Rogozin to be able to disagree with him. They are not fortunate like you to have a fortune teller to predict the future for them.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Dude, for your information, 827 is still in force so it does not matter on whether Russia approved it 18 years or 180 years ago. It is the law.



Secondly, I cannot see how the UN document itself exempted Nato people in any way. I’m of the view therefore that this document does not contradict Rogozin.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

I don’t see it, too. Res 827 does not exempt any person in the world, Nato people or not. But Rogozin did not say “Nato people”, but “Nato” and that is excluded by Res 827.



Hah! You just contradicted yourself! So your “Russia” refers to the Russian government. And pray tell, isn’t a serving ambassador like Rogozin therefore part of this government????? So you are in fact saying that Russia does not agree with Russia!
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Oh my god, how predictable you are :). I knew exactly this was going to be your reply… ha, ha, ha… A serving ambassador can represent as much as his credentials allow. So, we have the Russian ambassador at the UNSC that approves one thing, and the Russian ambassador at a press conference that says another thing. I know that credentials are checked at the UN; I can’t tell that for a press conference. So between the two ambassadors, one thing is sure: the UN one was representing Russia. Now, if you think that Rogozin represents Russia, and the UN ambassador does not, that’s fine, too. In that case I’ll say that Russia disagrees with the UN amabassador.



Do you also realize another inconsistency in what you wrote? You stated that “Unfortunately Russia DOES NOT agree with Rogozin”. (capital letters are mine for emphasis). You were thus referring to the Russian government (as clarified by you above) of TODAY, not the government back in 1993!
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Immaterial ! Changing Russia’s government, does not change the fact that Russia voted for resolution 827. No need to deal with the rest of your statement as it does not make any sense. States cannot get out of international agreements or undo their votes by saying, well we changed government now so everything the prior government did is null and void :)



Yes, I am giving my opinion of what Rogozin might have thought. I did NOT claimed to be able to read his mind. That’s why I used the word “Perhaps”. I’m sure your favorite Merriam-Webster has the definition of that word if you would care to check.
(lowe, 3 June 2011 15:34)

Sure, and I say that Rogozin PERHAPS did not know what resolution 827 said. And we can continue with other PERHAPS if you want. Nobody will be able to solve, except Rogozin himself, what PERHAPS is correct. The only thing that is a fact is that Rogozin did say “tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."

lowe

pre 12 godina

"Unfortunately, Russia does not agree with Rogozin. Russia did not say that the tribunal is there to prosecute “enemies of Serbs, and NATO”, Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law.
(icj1, 28 May 2011 05:48)"

I merely agreed with Rogozin, which should be abundantly clear from my post.

There is nothing in the article that clearly stated whether the Russia agrees or disagrees with Rogozin -- if you have your sources, do share so that readers can evaluate them.

My opinion about this however, is that it is unlikely for any serving ambassador to make public statements that his bosses do not agree with.

Peggy

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...
(Top, 28 May 2011 10:31)
============================

That's some imagination you have there grandma.

Funny how all who died while waiting for a trial and all who are imprisoned there for years and years without a verdict happen to be Serbs.
But hey, your version of justice is obviously so much more accurate than mine.
Nothing suspicious there alright.

New Zealander

pre 12 godina

Only some Serbian extremists think Tha Hague trials are not fair. If another criminal is acquitted because the guilt cannot be proven (due to killed witnesses, in case of some Kosovo Albanians), they have to release Mladic for that reason? Maybe it was not that smart to have the killing and deportation of the some 8000 victims in Srebrenica videotaped? One thing: Guilt is personal, and if some thieves are never caught and cannot be convicted, all other thieves have to be released? Strange idea of a 'fair trial' you have...
(Top, 28 May 2011 10:31)

Strange ideas you have, I'm not even a Serb and I think the Hague is biased. Why not indict Bush and Blair for the 500,000 in Iraq? You might want to read a bit of this Hague transcript, (Hint press F3 and search
"Torture") http://www.ictytranscripts.org/TrialTranscripts/HTML/transe54/02-07-26-IT.html

lowe

pre 12 godina

“Well, I apologize if Russia saying one thing and Rogozin saying another thing was interpreted by me as "disagreement". I'm leaving it to you to find a more correct English word to define such a thing. “

What exactly did "Russia" say that contradicted Rogozin??????? No need to apologize – just provide the proof, assuming you can. And how do you define “Russia”????? Do you mean the government? As I understand it, a serving ambassador is part of the government too, right?


“Well, UNSC Resolution 827 approved, among others, by Russia, says that ICTY is established "for the sole purpose of prosecuting persons responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law".

Whereas Rogozin says "that the tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed"

So the two statements do not agree with each other. Just consider that NATO is not a "person" as Russia, among others, requires in Resolution 827. But Rogozin disagrees; he still wants NATO to face justice at the Tribunal. So either Russia or Rogozin is right... but not both “

Perhaps Rogozin considered Nato bombing of Serbia to be a serious violation of international humanitarian law, and that Nato's military leaders should therefore be brought to the ICTY. And so far not a single one of his superiors have brought him to task publicly over the issue as far as I know. So where is the proof that his bosses disagreed with him?


“I'm not in the mind of his bosses, but, I leave that to your mind-reading capabilities well demonstrated in the past.
(icj1, 1 June 2011 04:00)”

Of course you do not know the mind of his bosses, so how can you conclude in the first place that they disagreed with Rogozin? And as I asked you earlier, how do you define “Russia” in the first place???

I don’t read minds, I give opinions. You on the other hand, have demonstrated a tendency to make outrageous claims in the past.

lowe

pre 12 godina

“"Perhaps" ?! I don't know... As I said before I don't have mind reading capabilities. I judge by what people do or say. He said "NATO" has to face justice. And I was referring to what he actually said: "NATO". Whereas you want to read his mind and refer to what he might have wanted to say. “

He was probably replying to a reporter’s question. not writing a precise legal report. It is unreasonable for you to expect him to give a reply that included a long, exact list of Nato names.


“Well, Russia approved a document at the UN that says differently. So diagreed with him.”

YOU may disagree with him. But how does Russian approval of the UN document come to be construed as disagreeing with him? Show me the precise parts of the document that stated that it did NOT apply to anyone from Nato.


“Because they acted to approve something that does not agree with what Rogozin says”

Wrong again! You stated that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. In the first place, in order to disagree with someone, you need to be aware of what that person said or did in order to be able to disagree with him. When the UN document was approved back in 1993, the Russians were NOT aware back then of what someone called Rogozin will be saying in 2011. The Russians back then could therefore not have known about Rogozin to be able to disagree with him. They are not fortunate like you to have a fortune teller to predict the future for them.

Secondly, I cannot see how the UN document itself exempted Nato people in any way. I’m of the view therefore that this document does not contradict Rogozin.


“Government as represented by its authorized representatives”

Hah! You just contradicted yourself! So your “Russia” refers to the Russian government. And pray tell, isn’t a serving ambassador like Rogozin therefore part of this government????? So you are in fact saying that Russia does not agree with Russia!

Do you also realize another inconsistency in what you wrote? You stated that “Unfortunately Russia DOES NOT agree with Rogozin”. (capital letters are mine for emphasis). You were thus referring to the Russian government (as clarified by you above) of TODAY, not the government back in 1993! For someone who had belittled my poor English that doesn't meet your lofty standards, you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past. As I already told you, I'm not aware that the Russian governemnt of TODAY had voiced any disagreement so far with Rogozin's words. In any case, he is part of the present Russian government.




“Well, if you say "Perhaps Rogozin considered...", then you are reading his mind, otherwise how would you know what he considered if he did not say it ?!
(icj1, 3 June 2011 06:46)”

Yes, I am giving my opinion of what Rogozin might have thought. I did NOT claimed to be able to read his mind. That’s why I used the word “Perhaps”. I’m sure your favorite Merriam-Webster has the definition of that word if you would care to check.

lowe

pre 12 godina

“Of course I expected him to give a list of names (not long, I did not say that) since he was speaking about a tribunal. Otherwise if he does not have a list, nobody forced him to say anything. “

Well, then your expectations are unreasonable as I already told you. I doubted that even Washington or Pristina mentioned individual names every time they answer reporters’ questions about the tribunal or other things.


“Come on lowe :) you are so skillful in trying to sneak in questions about a different thing. I said that resolution 827 excludes “Nato” not “anyone from Nato” that you are asking about. On that we agree… nobody from Nato, or for that matter, nobody of the 6B+ people in the world, is excluded from the ICTY’s jurisdiction. But Rogozin did not say “anyone from Nato”; he said “Nato”. “

I don’t sneak in anything. I merely asked you to show me the relevant provision in that UN document that exempted those from Nato – which you have failed to do so. Which therefore makes your statement that “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin “ a false one. When Rogozin answered the reporter’s question, of course he was referring to people in Nato –- Nato is not a robot except in your unique dreams.


“Dude, for your information, 827 is still in force so it does not matter on whether Russia approved it 18 years or 180 years ago. It is the law. “

Did I say that 827 is not in force? What I did was to ask you to show me the provision in it that stated that those in Nato are not liable. Which you have utterly failed to do so as I already pointed out above.

Moreover how can the Russians back in 1993 disagree with Rogozin when, firstly, they could not have predicted what he would say in 2011? As I said, you are the only person I know who relies on a fortune teller, but don’t be absurd to assume everyone else also have their own soothsayers. Secondly and more importantly, where does 827 itself excuse those from Nato? Finally, your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was made in the present tense which referred to the Russian government today – Rogozin was answering the reporter on behalf of the Russian government. ie. He is the Russian government in that context and so I would even dare say that the Russian government not only does not disagree with him but agrees with him!


“I don’t see it, too. Res 827 does not exempt any person in the world, Nato people or not. But Rogozin did not say “Nato people”, but “Nato” and that is excluded by Res 827. “

And as I already told you, Nato is not a robot. It is run by people. And it is those people who could be liable under 827. So where is the disagreement since Rogozin is speaking for the Russian government?


“Oh my god, how predictable you are :). I knew exactly this was going to be your reply… ha, ha, ha… A serving ambassador can represent as much as his credentials allow. So, we have the Russian ambassador at the UNSC that approves one thing, and the Russian ambassador at a press conference that says another thing. I know that credentials are checked at the UN; I can’t tell that for a press conference. So between the two ambassadors, one thing is sure: the UN one was representing Russia. Now, if you think that Rogozin represents Russia, and the UN ambassador does not, that’s fine, too. In that case I’ll say that Russia disagrees with the UN amabassador.”

So can you show me evidence that the Russian ambassador at the UNSC voiced his disagreement over what Rogozin said????? Rogozin is serving ambassador for Russia to Nato (of all people!) – he therefore represented Russia when he replied to that reporter. And none of his superiors had repudiated what he said. So what he said on behalf of the Russian government still stands. The Russian government therefore agrees with him. And your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” is therefore FALSE!


“Immaterial ! Changing Russia’s government, does not change the fact that Russia voted for resolution 827. No need to deal with the rest of your statement as it does not make any sense. States cannot get out of international agreements or undo their votes by saying, well we changed government now so everything the prior government did is null and void :) “

Not immaterial at all! As I told you, 827 applies to those in Nato too and is therefore not at variance with what Rogozin said. As for the rest of my statements, they made perfect sense to me and, moreover, they exposed the big flaw in YOUR argument which was probably why you were so eager to gloss over them.

You are someone who like to hold people to their exact words. Well, I am now holding you to your EXACT words! You were referring to the CURRENT government ONLY in view of the present tense in your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin”. And since Rogozin is in the current government and his bosses did not disagree with him, it means that they accepted what he said on their behalf. So they agreed with him and hence that statement of yours that this government does not agree with him is false!


“Sure, and I say that Rogozin PERHAPS did not know what resolution 827 said. And we can continue with other PERHAPS if you want. Nobody will be able to solve, except Rogozin himself, what PERHAPS is correct. The only thing that is a fact is that Rogozin did say “tribunal's justice can be considered only when enemies of Serbs, and NATO - which attacked Serbia in 1999 - also face justice for the killings they committed."
(icj1, 4 June 2011 20:14)”

Yes you can opine that about Rogozin if you wish, just as I was giving my opinion about him earlier. And the fact remains that your hallowed 827 does not give exemption to anybody from Nato. The facts are also that Rogozin is in the present Russian government and was therefore replying for the Russian government to the reporter’s question.

lowe

pre 12 godina

icj1,

Further to my reply to you that I submitted to B92 a short while ago, I must say that for someone like you to always insist on EXACTLY what was said by somebody, it is utterly amazing and INEXCUSABLE that you should be guilty of not bothering to find out, in this case, what Rogozin actually said. Instead you merely took at face value a report's brief paraphrase of what he told a reporter.


If you had bothered to research your facts, you will easily come across more detailed news reports of what Rogozin actually said. For example, this was how an Arabic news report quoted him:

[Start of Quote]

"However Russia’s ambassador to NATO called for NATO generals to be tried alongside Mladic.

"But Serbia will not feel his guilt until ... it sees that members of the international community who shot at peaceful civilians are punished,” often outspoken ambassador Dmitry Rogozin told Moscow Echo radio.

“We should be talking about the responsibility of NATO generals,” he added.
[End of Quote]

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/05/26/150673.html?PHPSESSID=22m5erkdkhso3ouqmg31iuch55

So even if I were to, for argument's sake, accept your strange notion that Nato is some robot whose actions are self-automated and entirely independent of the people running this robot, it is clear that Rogozin talked about Nato people. So your claim that he did not is utterly FALSE in any case!


Moreover I might as well go all the way now and tell you also that your statement “Unfortunately Russia does not agree with Rogozin” was not the only one that was false in your original post on 28 May. You had also initially stated on that "Russia said that the tribunal is there to prosecute serious violations of international humanitarian law." This is also FALSE as the tribunal prosecutes violators and NOT violations -- again I think I have the right to hold you to the same high English grammatical standard that you expect of others.

So I think I have clearly shown what you wrote on this thread to be FALSE. As false as the last time in which you also mocked me for being ignorant in not knowing that Morocco applied for EU entry in 1987 -- when anyone with a basic knowledge of the EU should surely know that the EU did not legally exist prior to the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.

lowe

pre 12 godina

“Unreasonable to expect un ambassador to be unprepared when expressing his opinion to journalists ?! “

Of course it is unreasonable. In any case as I already shown you, Rogozin did talk about Nato’s people and so your claim that he did not is pure FALSEHOOD! No way you are going to be able to wriggle out of your mistake!



“Of course” because you say so ?! I can say that, of course, he was referring to the moon and the stars :) “

Because I was able to prove to you with that Arabic news report link that he really did refer to Nato’s generals and thereby demolished your entire argument entirely. Okay, how about you now prove that he was referring to the moon and stars?????? But I wouldn’t be wasting my time waiting for your “proof” – this is yet another one of your FALSE claims.


“You did say that “you couldn't possibly have overlooked the timing reference in your words to the present and not the past” and I’m telling you that “past” does not matter because 827 is still in force.

Also, I did not fail anything because I told you already that 827 does not exclude anybody in the world from its subject matter. But Rogozin spoke about “Nato” and not persons…”

Well, can you dispute that your statement was made in the present tense and therefore referring to the future? Don‘t forget that you like to pick on others over grammar and so you should be perfection personified on this yourself -- and I am just referring to your exact words.

You are so WRONG AGAIN about Rogozin not referring to persons – he talked about Nato generals (whom I like to think are human beings despite what they did to Serbia) and you are like the classic ostrich with its head firmly stuck inside the sand desperately shutting your eyes to clear cut evidence


“Well, they then better find some more capable people for ambassadors who are more predictable that will follow Moscow’s policy ! “

Show me how Rogozin’s detailed words is a contradiction of Moscow’s policy. Did any of his bosses repudiate what he said? This statement being yet another FALSITY on your part!


“Well, NATO is a subject of many laws… It’s just not subject of resolution 827. The disagreement is in the fact that Rogozin made Nato a subject of 827, as well, whereas Russia did not. “

Yet another FALSE statement by you! Rogozin did NOT make Nato a subject of 827 since he talked about Nato’s generals.


“UNSC Document S/PV.3217 page 6 says that Mr. Yuli Vorontsov (presiding the Security Council for the Russian Federation) voted in favor of Resolution 827 which makes only persons subject of the ICTY thus disagreeing with Mr. Rogozin who also makes organizations (Nato) subject of the ICTY. So, either Mr. Vorontsov or Rogozin represents Russia’s position, but not both. Therefore my statement is not FALSE.”

Well, Rogozin talked about Nato generals who can be liable under 827, right? So your statement that he did not is absolutely FALSE …… this being yet another of your string of false statements so far!


“Of course it is in variance because Rogozin did not say “those in Nato” but “Nato”. “

And pray tell, who are the Nato generals if they do not fall under “those in Nato”???????????



“I did not say “current government”; I said “Russia”… Not sure what you are speaking about “

Desperately trying to feign ignorance now? No way I am going to let you off the hook. Let me refresh your failing memory – on 3 June 2011 you defined Russia as the government. And that particular sentence of yours was made in the PRESENT tense. So how can I not conclude that you must be referring to the present government?



“Of course, nobody from Nato is exempted. However that was not what Rogozin said. He said “Nato” not “anybody from Nato” thus being in disagreement with Russia. “

Gosh, you keep insisting what he did not refer to people from Nato even in the face of clear cut evidence that he did. Your denial however cannot alter the facts which make a mockery of your FALSE statements.


“Of course I will refer exactly the the words, unless those who said those words come and speak differently. “

You have mocked others for not doing their homework – the classic case of the pot calling the kettle black! You FAILED to find out what he actually said in that interview which rendered your claim that he was not talking about those in Nato INVALID and FALSE!


“I’m glad that Rogozin finally learned that Nato is not a subject of ICTY, but “Nato Generals” (or, for that matter, everybody in the world) is if they committed serious violations of IHL in former Yugoslavia “

Actually he did not “finally learned” (yet one more FALSE statement from you!!!!!!) …… the Arabic news report quoted what Rogozin actually said in that interview while B92 only paraphrased him. And you were negligent in not finding out what he actually said before you mocked him for his lack of knowledge – and you ended up making a fool of yourself instead in the process because of your own omission.

“I did not say that Nato is a robot. I did say Nato is not a subject of 827, but it is subject of other laws. And I am not false at all in regards to the words B92 reported, which I assume stand as long as B92 does not issue a correction. As I said, I’m glad that Mr. Rogozin, in the interview for Moscow Echo radio remembers what Russia’s policy is and mentions “Nato generals” and not “Nato”, “enemies of serbs”, etc, as he did in the citation from B92. “

It is YOUR responsibility to check your facts before passing judgment on Rogozin. This you have FAILED to do so. You claimed that in that particular interview which Rogozin gave that he did not refer to those in Nato. The facts are that he referred to people in Nato in that interview and so your statement that he did not do so is FALSE !!!!



“That's a mistype ("n" for "r") that does not affect any of my arguments where I repeatedly said that I was referring to "persons". But B92 did not mention any other words from Mr. Rogozin to make it clear that he was referring to people when he said "Nato". And sure, I don’t have any problem with Mr. Rogozin coming out and saying, sorry, he misspoke and he meant “Nato generals” and not “Nato”.”

Nope. You like to hold people to their EXACT words and so why should you have the privilege of being exempt from your own high standards????? Anyone who check your favorite Merriam-Webster will see clearly the difference between the “violators” and “violations”. And you were referring to the latter which makes your statement FALSE once again!



“Dude, EU is the legal successor of the European Communities. What you’re saying is like saying Kosovo was part of Serbia-Montenegro, but not Serbia. If Morocco had become member of the ECs, it would have been member, ipso jure, of the EU. So you've not showing anything false from what I said (except for gramatical errors which we can find a lot on both sides if you want, but I don't have any intention on wasting time on that unless they are not clarified and affect the argument).
(icj1, 12 June 2011 20:41)”

You claimed that Morocco applied to join the EU (and NOT the European Communities) in 1987. Your claim is FALSE since the EU did NOT legally exist back in 1987!

The 1992 Maastrict treaty stated the intentions of the signatories to be:

“HAVE DECIDED to establish a European Union and to this end have designated as their plenipotentiaries: “ ……. followed by the list of heads of states at that time. So they only decided to establish the EU in 1992.

Moreover, Article A of this treaty began with “By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called ‘the Union’.”

These provisions in the Maastrict Treaty clearly show that the EU was only intended to be formed legally in 1992 and did not exist back in 1987 thereby making your statement about Morocco FALSE!

Just as you demanded of Rogozin to be crystal clear that he was referring to people in Nato (which he did and so proved your claim FALSE), so you have, in this case, failed miserably in meeting your own standards when you claimed that Morocco applied to join the legally non-existent EU in 1987. Indeed, why should you, of all people, be exempt from your own standards?