Former U.S. President Bill Clinton was in Montenegro on Sunday, but he addressed those gathered to hear his speech by saying he was "glad to be in Macedonia".
oh, my dear, kind... (ex) otpor comrade. moderate nationalist... moderate historical revisionist...
actually clinton knew exactly what yr beloved milosevic and his legion of willing executioners was up to...
ot-por -- resist! fight back against the fascists. that's why i joined up, but i 'spose you had a bit of a different agenda.
tung. roberto frisco
(roberto, 24 May 2011 04:04)
I shouldn't be surprised, and probably shouldn't react, but even by the standards of your regular racist hate-filth, this is a disgusting statement. Otpor members for years risked injury and death to confront "beloved Milosevic", as you'd know if you had any interest or feeling for the Balkans, rather than using it as a vicarious plaything to vent a racism that you're not allowed to air at home.
Who's your next target, those blacks and thei beloved Klan? Pathetic.
Well that a pretty funny, hate filled rant Roberto, even you outdone yourself.
I enjoyed the 'Palin defence' about making a mistake, I'm suprised you didn't use the false English (American) word misspoke. For reasons I outlined below Clinton should know the difference between Montenegro and Macedonia. I know you Americans are weak on global geography, but don't tell me that don't teach you about ancient Greece either? I suppose not, it must be all those lessons on the genocide against Native Americans taking up teaching time at school. Perhaps not...
Its also kind of amusing that you have rushed to the defence of Clinton in the same emotional style that some used to adopt to defend Milosevic. Your beloved Clinton was a politician for God's sake, not the second coming of Christ.
This servile attitude towards politicians we vote for is one of the reasons why the world is in such a poor state. People behave like sheep.
Half of the people / institutions you mention are either dead or do not exist. Why bother ranting, really?
But I digress, anybody who criticises Clinton for bombing a country and not have a basic grasp of that region and that country's former states, must be some kind of revisionist. Or rather anybody who deviates from the official line should be strung up and executed etc.
--Well I'm not suprised really. Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are.
I can imagine him asking his advisors 'who are the bad guys' and then getting confused because apparantly there are 'bad guys' (Serbs) living all over the Balkans. And now apparantly the 'bad guys' aren't so bad as they used to be.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
Maybe it was Siberia they meant to bomb?
(bganon, 23 May 2011 12:07)--
oh, my dear, kind... (ex) otpor comrade. moderate nationalist... moderate historical revisionist.
yes, clinton made a mistake, he mistook macedonia for montenegro in a speech. i'm glad you've never made such a mistake, i'm happy you're always so spot-on. or so you think.
actually clinton knew exactly what yr beloved milosevic and his legion of willing executioners was up to. knew what was happening in bosnia quite early, actually the word is GENocide, by yr beloved milosevic/kradzic/mladic and their many followers, esp.ly but not exclusively inside bosnia and coming over from serbia. PLANNED fr belgrade. or are we still pretending that what took place inside bosnia was a "civil war"? Clinton spoke about it, at length, during his first presidential campaign, pointing to bush (#1's) inaction. unfortunately as president, clinton was slow to act, for a # of reasons, incl his own early advisors and those dear european politicians, many of whom were more than willing to facilitate the genocide (think the govt's of britain and france at the time.)
then there was the famous scene at the opening of the US holocaust museum, april 1993, when elie weisel admonished him: there is another holocaust... he was speaking of the siege of sarajevo, of the (serb controlled) concentration camps. even for serbia it seemed unbelievable.
but i've always argued that clinton waited far too long to act ag. serb terror forces, who were the classic bullies: raping and murdering civilians by the thousands, but easily defeated by any real military force. cowards, and mladic is now a prime example of that.
then comes 1999, by which time clinton, not to mention the rest of the world, was already quite familiar with yr beloved milosevic's gameplan -- ethnic cleansing (genocide) ag. thousands of civilians. this time, instead of croatian and bosnian civilians it was albanian civilians to be targeted; you know, the ones yr pals always refer to here as "the albos..." or maybe you just never noticed. that's odd.
anyway, this time we knew EXactly what to expect, and much to our horror, it all began to unfold, again! at the time -- and this time i was watching very closely -- i thought to myself: oh god, pls, not again! but sure enough... you kind of remember those "good old days..." and that's why the nato bombing started. and went on for 78 days, while yr pal milosevic ran from one safe house to another, and (some) innocent people died. thanks to yr pal slobo...
so now, WHO is not quite as bad as before (acc to you)? milosevic not as bad? arkan not as bad? serbian police not as bad? serbian army not as bad? serbian special forces not as bad? serbian generals not as bad? serbian rapists not as bad? serbian war criminals not as bad? serbian politicians that still protect thousands of war criminals, not to menion mass-murderer maldic, not as bad? serbian elite, that prop up demagogue-do-dik, not as bad? fiery nationalist tadic, not as bad? radical jeremic, not as bad? nationalist/socialist dacic, not as bad? the 51% of the people there that wish to keep protecting mladic, not so bad? the serbian elite that continue to torture the people of kosova and bosnia, not so bad?
your revising is called historical revisionism, of the worst kind, exactly as we have seen since 1945. though it was actually going on since 1933.
oh yes, the marty SMEAR report. once, twice, thrice a day by yr loyal (party) media. that's the answer, that PROVES it. the "albos" are the organ-traffickers, the serbs the victims. and hey, even if it is one great big LIE, it does bring doubt into the minds of some folks. once, twice, thrice...
and then you don't have to keep talking about the mass graves on serbian soil, in serbia and throughout "RS," 100s of them, some still unopened. but who cares about that? who cares about the 100s, possibly 1,000s of bodies burned by serb terror forces in industrial sites like trepca and mackatica in spring, 1999. or are you, too, going to send me a retort from some "socialist" rag? the problem is, i know the truth. as do many others. we are not yr home audience, the net is now international.
yes, i realize that otpor cut a wide ideological swath. but the historical revisionism will not go un-checked. even at b-92.
ot-por -- resist! fight back against the fascists. that's why i joined up, but i 'spose you had a bit of a different agenda.
Nenad I don't know, perhaps my standards are too high, but I expect somebody allegedly as smart as Clinton to know the difference between Macedonia and Montenegro. After all this Balkan area was one of the primary focus of his foreign policy, certainly as far as Europe was concerned.
If after many years of diplomatic and military engagement in the region such basic errors can be made in my opinion it shows either a fundamental lack of respect to us 'local' primatives, or that he never had a real grasp of what was going on in the first place.
As for conspiracies, I never believed that the downfall of Jugoslavija was created and hatched in the White House. Hardly, in the early days Bush senior supported keeping Jugoslavija together.
Much closer to the truth is that Jugoslavija was first allowed to die and encouraged to seperate by certain interested states in Europe. There are a number of interesting books that cover the topic in a balanced and scientific way.
None of the either cynical or imcompetant activies by other countries hides the cynical and incompetant behaviour of Jugoslav politicians either - without whom none of 'this' would be possible, as might be said at an Oscar ceremony...
"Glad to be in Macedonia" That explains how much he knows about the region.
Mr.Former President you have done in enough damage there or are you
looking for some more potential civilian targets to bomb Serbs again.Milo
Djukanovic card carrying communist and cigarettes trafficker will provide
all the assistance you may need.What a "distinguish company"our former President of USA selected to be in.
As I have said many times before, Clinton and company killed 10 000 in Kosovo and the Albanians think he is a God and not a peep out of the so called Human Rights groups such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. So who am I to go against the trend – well done Mr Clinton, well done.
Poor old Billy must have had Monica on his mind to mix up Montenegro and Macedonia.
I can assure you, Clinton is no dummy. I seem to recall hearing that his IQ in in the range of 160 and anyway, he comes from relatively humble beginnings in the not-so-glamorous state of Arkansas and attended both Georgetown University and Yale Law School -- institutions to which people of his pedigree don't have access unless they're either really rich and well-connected or extremely smart. Also, unlike George W. Bush, he was no academic slouch, having studied as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford.
Admittedly, the 10% I quoted was erroneous, as this number equates to around 30 million people, which is much too high. As you can see, unlike Clinton, my IQ is not hovering in the range of 160.
However, I did say (or tried to -- my post had typos) that 95% of the 10% would be people with Balkan ancestry, so my point in the first place was that hardly any Americans know anything about the Balkans. And I know it is the same in UK. My wife is from England and I've just how clueless people are about Balkan affairs in that country.
This leads me back to the last point I was trying to make earlier, which is that all this Western ignorance makes it very hard for me to believe that anyone in America or UK really tried to undermine Yugoslavia in the 80s and 90s -- especially since Tito and company had borrowed billions of dollars from them to prop up the Yugoslav economy. I frequently hear that China would never seriously try to threaten the US militarily because of all the American debt they hold...wouldn't the same principle hold true for Yugoslavia and the West 20 years ago? Furthermore, just because Yugoslavia was communist and primarily Slavic didn't mean that people in the West held it in the same regard as the Warsaw Pact countries.
Nenad, really sorry to have to say this but you couldn't be more wrong, Clinton was a very intelligent President? you must be joking? I think this is not a minor error, he confused two different countries, how in the emworld could anyone worthy of a Phd confuse two different countries especially since they are in one of them with plenty of clue around them...
10% of Americans could give a decent run down of Balkan politics, my God you are deluded not even 10% of British people could do that and they actually know what Europe is (a continent if you were of American disposition).
Bubba cares about his appearance fee and couldnt care less if he is in Macedonia or Montenegro.If Ana Ivanovic would have been his intern back when I guarantee you Bubba would have ordered the bomobing of Albania instead of Serbia.Plus the fact that the Albanians were very generous with their monetary "contributions" while the over one million Americans of Serbian heritage were very stingy spelled disaster for Serbia.Clinton is a very smart individual and his economic policies were great for America but when it came to foreigh policy him and his advisors usually went to the highest bidder
America is trying to dominate the balkans and they can't even tell the difference between Montenegro and Macedonia. Actually if you think about it perhaps the difference between the two isn't that great. Both stabbed Serbia in the back in regards to our holy land of Kosovo and both will loose territory to territoryhungry albanians.
"Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are." - bganon
"Cowboy" understanding or "American" understanding? I would bet that no more than 10% of Americans could give you an intelligent breakdown of Balkan peoples, and probably 95% of the 10% that could have Balkan lineage.
An unfortunate blunder for Bill, Montenegrins and Macedonians, and clearly a delightful error for (non-CG) Serbs.
As am American, I am somewhat surprised -- in case you haven't heard, Clinton is widely regarded as one of the most intelligent presidents in US history. However, I suppose that this does not make him a Balkan scholar.
It just makes me wonder how it could be possible for Clinton to be so ignorant of Balkan affairs on the one hand, and the head of state presiding over a grand Western conspiracy to unravel Yugoslavia on the other.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
Maybe it was Siberia they meant to bomb?
(bganon, 23 May 2011 12:07)
Lucky for Bubba he didn't confuse his Ms even more and addressed the crowd by telling them how glad he was to be inside Monaco, or eating a big greasy Mac.
Maybe this explains the Chinese embassy in Belgrade????
(UK, 23 May 2011 15:15)
No the Chinese Embassy was bombed for a specific reason and intentionally.
The Yugoslav Military were using the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade as a Command Centre during the bombing of Yugoslavia with Chinese permission as they thought they'd be safe in there. However this made FR Yugoslavia and PR China in violation of the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which both were signatories of; thus both were breaking international law.
When the US found out about this they could have taken both to Court for this violation of international law, however they thought it'd be simpler to just bomb it and cover it up as an accident because FR Yugoslavia and PR China couldn't exactly take the US to court because they themselves were breaking international law.
Now you probably don't believe me, however the former Chinese president Jiang Zemin admitted to this in his memoirs. He gave permission to Milosevic to use the Chinese Embassy as a Yugoslav Military Command Centre. Jiang Zemin regretted allowing Yugoslav forces use the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade as a military command centre because the consequences were very embarrassing for him.
However I agree that Bill Clinton is stupid for mixing up Macedonia and Montenegro, however the bombing of the Chinese Embassy was rather intelligent of him because there was nothing PR China could do about it.
Whilst this whole episode is very funny on the surface it really does expose a nasty seriousness! I doubt very much that Clinton was ad libing his speech, which means that some ex-white house Balkans expert wrote it for him. Then just how seriously do these people take us or our politics? Not much has changed since he bombed us back in 99 except the fact that the Montenegrin government is willing to kiss Clinton ass, hoping that this very active fossil can get them the brownie points to get into the EU!
Well I'm not suprised really. Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are.
I can imagine him asking his advisors 'who are the bad guys' and then getting confused because apparantly there are 'bad guys' (Serbs) living all over the Balkans. And now apparantly the 'bad guys' aren't so bad as they used to be.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
Well I'm not suprised really. Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are.
I can imagine him asking his advisors 'who are the bad guys' and then getting confused because apparantly there are 'bad guys' (Serbs) living all over the Balkans. And now apparantly the 'bad guys' aren't so bad as they used to be.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
Whilst this whole episode is very funny on the surface it really does expose a nasty seriousness! I doubt very much that Clinton was ad libing his speech, which means that some ex-white house Balkans expert wrote it for him. Then just how seriously do these people take us or our politics? Not much has changed since he bombed us back in 99 except the fact that the Montenegrin government is willing to kiss Clinton ass, hoping that this very active fossil can get them the brownie points to get into the EU!
America is trying to dominate the balkans and they can't even tell the difference between Montenegro and Macedonia. Actually if you think about it perhaps the difference between the two isn't that great. Both stabbed Serbia in the back in regards to our holy land of Kosovo and both will loose territory to territoryhungry albanians.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
Maybe it was Siberia they meant to bomb?
(bganon, 23 May 2011 12:07)
Lucky for Bubba he didn't confuse his Ms even more and addressed the crowd by telling them how glad he was to be inside Monaco, or eating a big greasy Mac.
Bubba cares about his appearance fee and couldnt care less if he is in Macedonia or Montenegro.If Ana Ivanovic would have been his intern back when I guarantee you Bubba would have ordered the bomobing of Albania instead of Serbia.Plus the fact that the Albanians were very generous with their monetary "contributions" while the over one million Americans of Serbian heritage were very stingy spelled disaster for Serbia.Clinton is a very smart individual and his economic policies were great for America but when it came to foreigh policy him and his advisors usually went to the highest bidder
Well that a pretty funny, hate filled rant Roberto, even you outdone yourself.
I enjoyed the 'Palin defence' about making a mistake, I'm suprised you didn't use the false English (American) word misspoke. For reasons I outlined below Clinton should know the difference between Montenegro and Macedonia. I know you Americans are weak on global geography, but don't tell me that don't teach you about ancient Greece either? I suppose not, it must be all those lessons on the genocide against Native Americans taking up teaching time at school. Perhaps not...
Its also kind of amusing that you have rushed to the defence of Clinton in the same emotional style that some used to adopt to defend Milosevic. Your beloved Clinton was a politician for God's sake, not the second coming of Christ.
This servile attitude towards politicians we vote for is one of the reasons why the world is in such a poor state. People behave like sheep.
Half of the people / institutions you mention are either dead or do not exist. Why bother ranting, really?
But I digress, anybody who criticises Clinton for bombing a country and not have a basic grasp of that region and that country's former states, must be some kind of revisionist. Or rather anybody who deviates from the official line should be strung up and executed etc.
Nenad, really sorry to have to say this but you couldn't be more wrong, Clinton was a very intelligent President? you must be joking? I think this is not a minor error, he confused two different countries, how in the emworld could anyone worthy of a Phd confuse two different countries especially since they are in one of them with plenty of clue around them...
10% of Americans could give a decent run down of Balkan politics, my God you are deluded not even 10% of British people could do that and they actually know what Europe is (a continent if you were of American disposition).
As I have said many times before, Clinton and company killed 10 000 in Kosovo and the Albanians think he is a God and not a peep out of the so called Human Rights groups such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. So who am I to go against the trend – well done Mr Clinton, well done.
Poor old Billy must have had Monica on his mind to mix up Montenegro and Macedonia.
"Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are." - bganon
"Cowboy" understanding or "American" understanding? I would bet that no more than 10% of Americans could give you an intelligent breakdown of Balkan peoples, and probably 95% of the 10% that could have Balkan lineage.
An unfortunate blunder for Bill, Montenegrins and Macedonians, and clearly a delightful error for (non-CG) Serbs.
As am American, I am somewhat surprised -- in case you haven't heard, Clinton is widely regarded as one of the most intelligent presidents in US history. However, I suppose that this does not make him a Balkan scholar.
It just makes me wonder how it could be possible for Clinton to be so ignorant of Balkan affairs on the one hand, and the head of state presiding over a grand Western conspiracy to unravel Yugoslavia on the other.
"Glad to be in Macedonia" That explains how much he knows about the region.
Mr.Former President you have done in enough damage there or are you
looking for some more potential civilian targets to bomb Serbs again.Milo
Djukanovic card carrying communist and cigarettes trafficker will provide
all the assistance you may need.What a "distinguish company"our former President of USA selected to be in.
Nenad I don't know, perhaps my standards are too high, but I expect somebody allegedly as smart as Clinton to know the difference between Macedonia and Montenegro. After all this Balkan area was one of the primary focus of his foreign policy, certainly as far as Europe was concerned.
If after many years of diplomatic and military engagement in the region such basic errors can be made in my opinion it shows either a fundamental lack of respect to us 'local' primatives, or that he never had a real grasp of what was going on in the first place.
As for conspiracies, I never believed that the downfall of Jugoslavija was created and hatched in the White House. Hardly, in the early days Bush senior supported keeping Jugoslavija together.
Much closer to the truth is that Jugoslavija was first allowed to die and encouraged to seperate by certain interested states in Europe. There are a number of interesting books that cover the topic in a balanced and scientific way.
None of the either cynical or imcompetant activies by other countries hides the cynical and incompetant behaviour of Jugoslav politicians either - without whom none of 'this' would be possible, as might be said at an Oscar ceremony...
oh, my dear, kind... (ex) otpor comrade. moderate nationalist... moderate historical revisionist...
actually clinton knew exactly what yr beloved milosevic and his legion of willing executioners was up to...
ot-por -- resist! fight back against the fascists. that's why i joined up, but i 'spose you had a bit of a different agenda.
tung. roberto frisco
(roberto, 24 May 2011 04:04)
I shouldn't be surprised, and probably shouldn't react, but even by the standards of your regular racist hate-filth, this is a disgusting statement. Otpor members for years risked injury and death to confront "beloved Milosevic", as you'd know if you had any interest or feeling for the Balkans, rather than using it as a vicarious plaything to vent a racism that you're not allowed to air at home.
Who's your next target, those blacks and thei beloved Klan? Pathetic.
I can assure you, Clinton is no dummy. I seem to recall hearing that his IQ in in the range of 160 and anyway, he comes from relatively humble beginnings in the not-so-glamorous state of Arkansas and attended both Georgetown University and Yale Law School -- institutions to which people of his pedigree don't have access unless they're either really rich and well-connected or extremely smart. Also, unlike George W. Bush, he was no academic slouch, having studied as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford.
Admittedly, the 10% I quoted was erroneous, as this number equates to around 30 million people, which is much too high. As you can see, unlike Clinton, my IQ is not hovering in the range of 160.
However, I did say (or tried to -- my post had typos) that 95% of the 10% would be people with Balkan ancestry, so my point in the first place was that hardly any Americans know anything about the Balkans. And I know it is the same in UK. My wife is from England and I've just how clueless people are about Balkan affairs in that country.
This leads me back to the last point I was trying to make earlier, which is that all this Western ignorance makes it very hard for me to believe that anyone in America or UK really tried to undermine Yugoslavia in the 80s and 90s -- especially since Tito and company had borrowed billions of dollars from them to prop up the Yugoslav economy. I frequently hear that China would never seriously try to threaten the US militarily because of all the American debt they hold...wouldn't the same principle hold true for Yugoslavia and the West 20 years ago? Furthermore, just because Yugoslavia was communist and primarily Slavic didn't mean that people in the West held it in the same regard as the Warsaw Pact countries.
Maybe this explains the Chinese embassy in Belgrade????
(UK, 23 May 2011 15:15)
No the Chinese Embassy was bombed for a specific reason and intentionally.
The Yugoslav Military were using the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade as a Command Centre during the bombing of Yugoslavia with Chinese permission as they thought they'd be safe in there. However this made FR Yugoslavia and PR China in violation of the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which both were signatories of; thus both were breaking international law.
When the US found out about this they could have taken both to Court for this violation of international law, however they thought it'd be simpler to just bomb it and cover it up as an accident because FR Yugoslavia and PR China couldn't exactly take the US to court because they themselves were breaking international law.
Now you probably don't believe me, however the former Chinese president Jiang Zemin admitted to this in his memoirs. He gave permission to Milosevic to use the Chinese Embassy as a Yugoslav Military Command Centre. Jiang Zemin regretted allowing Yugoslav forces use the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade as a military command centre because the consequences were very embarrassing for him.
However I agree that Bill Clinton is stupid for mixing up Macedonia and Montenegro, however the bombing of the Chinese Embassy was rather intelligent of him because there was nothing PR China could do about it.
--Well I'm not suprised really. Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are.
I can imagine him asking his advisors 'who are the bad guys' and then getting confused because apparantly there are 'bad guys' (Serbs) living all over the Balkans. And now apparantly the 'bad guys' aren't so bad as they used to be.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
Maybe it was Siberia they meant to bomb?
(bganon, 23 May 2011 12:07)--
oh, my dear, kind... (ex) otpor comrade. moderate nationalist... moderate historical revisionist.
yes, clinton made a mistake, he mistook macedonia for montenegro in a speech. i'm glad you've never made such a mistake, i'm happy you're always so spot-on. or so you think.
actually clinton knew exactly what yr beloved milosevic and his legion of willing executioners was up to. knew what was happening in bosnia quite early, actually the word is GENocide, by yr beloved milosevic/kradzic/mladic and their many followers, esp.ly but not exclusively inside bosnia and coming over from serbia. PLANNED fr belgrade. or are we still pretending that what took place inside bosnia was a "civil war"? Clinton spoke about it, at length, during his first presidential campaign, pointing to bush (#1's) inaction. unfortunately as president, clinton was slow to act, for a # of reasons, incl his own early advisors and those dear european politicians, many of whom were more than willing to facilitate the genocide (think the govt's of britain and france at the time.)
then there was the famous scene at the opening of the US holocaust museum, april 1993, when elie weisel admonished him: there is another holocaust... he was speaking of the siege of sarajevo, of the (serb controlled) concentration camps. even for serbia it seemed unbelievable.
but i've always argued that clinton waited far too long to act ag. serb terror forces, who were the classic bullies: raping and murdering civilians by the thousands, but easily defeated by any real military force. cowards, and mladic is now a prime example of that.
then comes 1999, by which time clinton, not to mention the rest of the world, was already quite familiar with yr beloved milosevic's gameplan -- ethnic cleansing (genocide) ag. thousands of civilians. this time, instead of croatian and bosnian civilians it was albanian civilians to be targeted; you know, the ones yr pals always refer to here as "the albos..." or maybe you just never noticed. that's odd.
anyway, this time we knew EXactly what to expect, and much to our horror, it all began to unfold, again! at the time -- and this time i was watching very closely -- i thought to myself: oh god, pls, not again! but sure enough... you kind of remember those "good old days..." and that's why the nato bombing started. and went on for 78 days, while yr pal milosevic ran from one safe house to another, and (some) innocent people died. thanks to yr pal slobo...
so now, WHO is not quite as bad as before (acc to you)? milosevic not as bad? arkan not as bad? serbian police not as bad? serbian army not as bad? serbian special forces not as bad? serbian generals not as bad? serbian rapists not as bad? serbian war criminals not as bad? serbian politicians that still protect thousands of war criminals, not to menion mass-murderer maldic, not as bad? serbian elite, that prop up demagogue-do-dik, not as bad? fiery nationalist tadic, not as bad? radical jeremic, not as bad? nationalist/socialist dacic, not as bad? the 51% of the people there that wish to keep protecting mladic, not so bad? the serbian elite that continue to torture the people of kosova and bosnia, not so bad?
your revising is called historical revisionism, of the worst kind, exactly as we have seen since 1945. though it was actually going on since 1933.
oh yes, the marty SMEAR report. once, twice, thrice a day by yr loyal (party) media. that's the answer, that PROVES it. the "albos" are the organ-traffickers, the serbs the victims. and hey, even if it is one great big LIE, it does bring doubt into the minds of some folks. once, twice, thrice...
and then you don't have to keep talking about the mass graves on serbian soil, in serbia and throughout "RS," 100s of them, some still unopened. but who cares about that? who cares about the 100s, possibly 1,000s of bodies burned by serb terror forces in industrial sites like trepca and mackatica in spring, 1999. or are you, too, going to send me a retort from some "socialist" rag? the problem is, i know the truth. as do many others. we are not yr home audience, the net is now international.
yes, i realize that otpor cut a wide ideological swath. but the historical revisionism will not go un-checked. even at b-92.
ot-por -- resist! fight back against the fascists. that's why i joined up, but i 'spose you had a bit of a different agenda.
Well I'm not suprised really. Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are.
I can imagine him asking his advisors 'who are the bad guys' and then getting confused because apparantly there are 'bad guys' (Serbs) living all over the Balkans. And now apparantly the 'bad guys' aren't so bad as they used to be.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
--Well I'm not suprised really. Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are.
I can imagine him asking his advisors 'who are the bad guys' and then getting confused because apparantly there are 'bad guys' (Serbs) living all over the Balkans. And now apparantly the 'bad guys' aren't so bad as they used to be.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
Maybe it was Siberia they meant to bomb?
(bganon, 23 May 2011 12:07)--
oh, my dear, kind... (ex) otpor comrade. moderate nationalist... moderate historical revisionist.
yes, clinton made a mistake, he mistook macedonia for montenegro in a speech. i'm glad you've never made such a mistake, i'm happy you're always so spot-on. or so you think.
actually clinton knew exactly what yr beloved milosevic and his legion of willing executioners was up to. knew what was happening in bosnia quite early, actually the word is GENocide, by yr beloved milosevic/kradzic/mladic and their many followers, esp.ly but not exclusively inside bosnia and coming over from serbia. PLANNED fr belgrade. or are we still pretending that what took place inside bosnia was a "civil war"? Clinton spoke about it, at length, during his first presidential campaign, pointing to bush (#1's) inaction. unfortunately as president, clinton was slow to act, for a # of reasons, incl his own early advisors and those dear european politicians, many of whom were more than willing to facilitate the genocide (think the govt's of britain and france at the time.)
then there was the famous scene at the opening of the US holocaust museum, april 1993, when elie weisel admonished him: there is another holocaust... he was speaking of the siege of sarajevo, of the (serb controlled) concentration camps. even for serbia it seemed unbelievable.
but i've always argued that clinton waited far too long to act ag. serb terror forces, who were the classic bullies: raping and murdering civilians by the thousands, but easily defeated by any real military force. cowards, and mladic is now a prime example of that.
then comes 1999, by which time clinton, not to mention the rest of the world, was already quite familiar with yr beloved milosevic's gameplan -- ethnic cleansing (genocide) ag. thousands of civilians. this time, instead of croatian and bosnian civilians it was albanian civilians to be targeted; you know, the ones yr pals always refer to here as "the albos..." or maybe you just never noticed. that's odd.
anyway, this time we knew EXactly what to expect, and much to our horror, it all began to unfold, again! at the time -- and this time i was watching very closely -- i thought to myself: oh god, pls, not again! but sure enough... you kind of remember those "good old days..." and that's why the nato bombing started. and went on for 78 days, while yr pal milosevic ran from one safe house to another, and (some) innocent people died. thanks to yr pal slobo...
so now, WHO is not quite as bad as before (acc to you)? milosevic not as bad? arkan not as bad? serbian police not as bad? serbian army not as bad? serbian special forces not as bad? serbian generals not as bad? serbian rapists not as bad? serbian war criminals not as bad? serbian politicians that still protect thousands of war criminals, not to menion mass-murderer maldic, not as bad? serbian elite, that prop up demagogue-do-dik, not as bad? fiery nationalist tadic, not as bad? radical jeremic, not as bad? nationalist/socialist dacic, not as bad? the 51% of the people there that wish to keep protecting mladic, not so bad? the serbian elite that continue to torture the people of kosova and bosnia, not so bad?
your revising is called historical revisionism, of the worst kind, exactly as we have seen since 1945. though it was actually going on since 1933.
oh yes, the marty SMEAR report. once, twice, thrice a day by yr loyal (party) media. that's the answer, that PROVES it. the "albos" are the organ-traffickers, the serbs the victims. and hey, even if it is one great big LIE, it does bring doubt into the minds of some folks. once, twice, thrice...
and then you don't have to keep talking about the mass graves on serbian soil, in serbia and throughout "RS," 100s of them, some still unopened. but who cares about that? who cares about the 100s, possibly 1,000s of bodies burned by serb terror forces in industrial sites like trepca and mackatica in spring, 1999. or are you, too, going to send me a retort from some "socialist" rag? the problem is, i know the truth. as do many others. we are not yr home audience, the net is now international.
yes, i realize that otpor cut a wide ideological swath. but the historical revisionism will not go un-checked. even at b-92.
ot-por -- resist! fight back against the fascists. that's why i joined up, but i 'spose you had a bit of a different agenda.
Maybe this explains the Chinese embassy in Belgrade????
(UK, 23 May 2011 15:15)
No the Chinese Embassy was bombed for a specific reason and intentionally.
The Yugoslav Military were using the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade as a Command Centre during the bombing of Yugoslavia with Chinese permission as they thought they'd be safe in there. However this made FR Yugoslavia and PR China in violation of the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which both were signatories of; thus both were breaking international law.
When the US found out about this they could have taken both to Court for this violation of international law, however they thought it'd be simpler to just bomb it and cover it up as an accident because FR Yugoslavia and PR China couldn't exactly take the US to court because they themselves were breaking international law.
Now you probably don't believe me, however the former Chinese president Jiang Zemin admitted to this in his memoirs. He gave permission to Milosevic to use the Chinese Embassy as a Yugoslav Military Command Centre. Jiang Zemin regretted allowing Yugoslav forces use the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade as a military command centre because the consequences were very embarrassing for him.
However I agree that Bill Clinton is stupid for mixing up Macedonia and Montenegro, however the bombing of the Chinese Embassy was rather intelligent of him because there was nothing PR China could do about it.
I can assure you, Clinton is no dummy. I seem to recall hearing that his IQ in in the range of 160 and anyway, he comes from relatively humble beginnings in the not-so-glamorous state of Arkansas and attended both Georgetown University and Yale Law School -- institutions to which people of his pedigree don't have access unless they're either really rich and well-connected or extremely smart. Also, unlike George W. Bush, he was no academic slouch, having studied as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford.
Admittedly, the 10% I quoted was erroneous, as this number equates to around 30 million people, which is much too high. As you can see, unlike Clinton, my IQ is not hovering in the range of 160.
However, I did say (or tried to -- my post had typos) that 95% of the 10% would be people with Balkan ancestry, so my point in the first place was that hardly any Americans know anything about the Balkans. And I know it is the same in UK. My wife is from England and I've just how clueless people are about Balkan affairs in that country.
This leads me back to the last point I was trying to make earlier, which is that all this Western ignorance makes it very hard for me to believe that anyone in America or UK really tried to undermine Yugoslavia in the 80s and 90s -- especially since Tito and company had borrowed billions of dollars from them to prop up the Yugoslav economy. I frequently hear that China would never seriously try to threaten the US militarily because of all the American debt they hold...wouldn't the same principle hold true for Yugoslavia and the West 20 years ago? Furthermore, just because Yugoslavia was communist and primarily Slavic didn't mean that people in the West held it in the same regard as the Warsaw Pact countries.
Bubba cares about his appearance fee and couldnt care less if he is in Macedonia or Montenegro.If Ana Ivanovic would have been his intern back when I guarantee you Bubba would have ordered the bomobing of Albania instead of Serbia.Plus the fact that the Albanians were very generous with their monetary "contributions" while the over one million Americans of Serbian heritage were very stingy spelled disaster for Serbia.Clinton is a very smart individual and his economic policies were great for America but when it came to foreigh policy him and his advisors usually went to the highest bidder
Nenad, really sorry to have to say this but you couldn't be more wrong, Clinton was a very intelligent President? you must be joking? I think this is not a minor error, he confused two different countries, how in the emworld could anyone worthy of a Phd confuse two different countries especially since they are in one of them with plenty of clue around them...
10% of Americans could give a decent run down of Balkan politics, my God you are deluded not even 10% of British people could do that and they actually know what Europe is (a continent if you were of American disposition).
"Clinton couldn't care less about anybody in the region and only has a cowboy understanding of who the people in the Balkans are." - bganon
"Cowboy" understanding or "American" understanding? I would bet that no more than 10% of Americans could give you an intelligent breakdown of Balkan peoples, and probably 95% of the 10% that could have Balkan lineage.
An unfortunate blunder for Bill, Montenegrins and Macedonians, and clearly a delightful error for (non-CG) Serbs.
As am American, I am somewhat surprised -- in case you haven't heard, Clinton is widely regarded as one of the most intelligent presidents in US history. However, I suppose that this does not make him a Balkan scholar.
It just makes me wonder how it could be possible for Clinton to be so ignorant of Balkan affairs on the one hand, and the head of state presiding over a grand Western conspiracy to unravel Yugoslavia on the other.
America is trying to dominate the balkans and they can't even tell the difference between Montenegro and Macedonia. Actually if you think about it perhaps the difference between the two isn't that great. Both stabbed Serbia in the back in regards to our holy land of Kosovo and both will loose territory to territoryhungry albanians.
Well that a pretty funny, hate filled rant Roberto, even you outdone yourself.
I enjoyed the 'Palin defence' about making a mistake, I'm suprised you didn't use the false English (American) word misspoke. For reasons I outlined below Clinton should know the difference between Montenegro and Macedonia. I know you Americans are weak on global geography, but don't tell me that don't teach you about ancient Greece either? I suppose not, it must be all those lessons on the genocide against Native Americans taking up teaching time at school. Perhaps not...
Its also kind of amusing that you have rushed to the defence of Clinton in the same emotional style that some used to adopt to defend Milosevic. Your beloved Clinton was a politician for God's sake, not the second coming of Christ.
This servile attitude towards politicians we vote for is one of the reasons why the world is in such a poor state. People behave like sheep.
Half of the people / institutions you mention are either dead or do not exist. Why bother ranting, really?
But I digress, anybody who criticises Clinton for bombing a country and not have a basic grasp of that region and that country's former states, must be some kind of revisionist. Or rather anybody who deviates from the official line should be strung up and executed etc.
As I have said many times before, Clinton and company killed 10 000 in Kosovo and the Albanians think he is a God and not a peep out of the so called Human Rights groups such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. So who am I to go against the trend – well done Mr Clinton, well done.
Poor old Billy must have had Monica on his mind to mix up Montenegro and Macedonia.
"Glad to be in Macedonia" That explains how much he knows about the region.
Mr.Former President you have done in enough damage there or are you
looking for some more potential civilian targets to bomb Serbs again.Milo
Djukanovic card carrying communist and cigarettes trafficker will provide
all the assistance you may need.What a "distinguish company"our former President of USA selected to be in.
oh, my dear, kind... (ex) otpor comrade. moderate nationalist... moderate historical revisionist...
actually clinton knew exactly what yr beloved milosevic and his legion of willing executioners was up to...
ot-por -- resist! fight back against the fascists. that's why i joined up, but i 'spose you had a bit of a different agenda.
tung. roberto frisco
(roberto, 24 May 2011 04:04)
I shouldn't be surprised, and probably shouldn't react, but even by the standards of your regular racist hate-filth, this is a disgusting statement. Otpor members for years risked injury and death to confront "beloved Milosevic", as you'd know if you had any interest or feeling for the Balkans, rather than using it as a vicarious plaything to vent a racism that you're not allowed to air at home.
Who's your next target, those blacks and thei beloved Klan? Pathetic.
And the 'good guys' apparantly are not as good as they used to be either. The 'ok' guys - Montenegro and Macedonia, well thats a bitch to confuse, they both start with the letter M as well.
Maybe it was Siberia they meant to bomb?
(bganon, 23 May 2011 12:07)
Lucky for Bubba he didn't confuse his Ms even more and addressed the crowd by telling them how glad he was to be inside Monaco, or eating a big greasy Mac.
Nenad I don't know, perhaps my standards are too high, but I expect somebody allegedly as smart as Clinton to know the difference between Macedonia and Montenegro. After all this Balkan area was one of the primary focus of his foreign policy, certainly as far as Europe was concerned.
If after many years of diplomatic and military engagement in the region such basic errors can be made in my opinion it shows either a fundamental lack of respect to us 'local' primatives, or that he never had a real grasp of what was going on in the first place.
As for conspiracies, I never believed that the downfall of Jugoslavija was created and hatched in the White House. Hardly, in the early days Bush senior supported keeping Jugoslavija together.
Much closer to the truth is that Jugoslavija was first allowed to die and encouraged to seperate by certain interested states in Europe. There are a number of interesting books that cover the topic in a balanced and scientific way.
None of the either cynical or imcompetant activies by other countries hides the cynical and incompetant behaviour of Jugoslav politicians either - without whom none of 'this' would be possible, as might be said at an Oscar ceremony...
Whilst this whole episode is very funny on the surface it really does expose a nasty seriousness! I doubt very much that Clinton was ad libing his speech, which means that some ex-white house Balkans expert wrote it for him. Then just how seriously do these people take us or our politics? Not much has changed since he bombed us back in 99 except the fact that the Montenegrin government is willing to kiss Clinton ass, hoping that this very active fossil can get them the brownie points to get into the EU!
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