May Day in Serbia marked with small protest

Dear workers,

You've lived for generations under communism, so you are confused.

A unit of labour is like anything else bought and sold on the free marketplace. No one owes you anything. Welcome to the real world.

Bganon.

The proverbial sweatshop: Firstly, no one is forcing them to work there. In fact, they probably line up around the block for a job there. It's not the factory's fault for a poor situation where they have built. Their presence improves the lot of the people there. Are they better off without the jobs? Their life is heaven without the opportunity to work in the factory?

When a factory opens in a poor region and people go to work there, a workforce gets trained and the success of the factory attracts other factories to develop in the region. What does this do? This raises the wages as multiple factories compete for a limited labour pool.

some people are born into unfortunate circumstances. Free-market global capitalism helps people in the long run, rather than being the source of it.

There's no deus-ex-machina fix to inequality.

Serbia should take advantage of their low-wage situation and market themselves as an outsourcing/nearsourcing centre.

Danilo you were referring to the benefits of capitalism so I just pointed out some flaws in this 'we can all have jobs and we all get richer' nonsense.

"But you agree with me that MOST rich people are born that way"

You - I don't.

"The majority of rich people around the world were born into riches"

You - While this may be true...

Danilo you should really make your mind up on what you believe. Orwell showed how its quite possible for certain people to hold contradictory opinions at the same time, but this is taking it too far.

Let me make it crystal clear for you understand capitalism ensures that those who are rich, stay rich and ensures that those who are poor stay poor. There are exceptions to the rule, thank god.

That is the system you support, live with it.

Of course I'm a hypocrite because I use the system to get ahead, but at least I don't try to sugar coat reality to make myself feel better about my selfishness.

Danilo I heard it all before, but its kind of inhuman this argument supporting capitalism isn't it? If you have a heart you must know that.

Nobody is forcing them to work there? On the other hand they are forced to work there because there is nowhere else to work. Who 'forces' these companies to use child labour in sweatshops? As for a workforce getting trained, utter nonsense. Wait and see what happens when international tobacco companies will move on from Serbia when excise duty and company taxes go up. Those workers going to get lovely new jobs because of their experience in the factory. Yeah right, like you don't know reality?

The majority of rich people around the world were born into riches and have little incentive to work. It is the minority who worked for it. So no I'd disagree with you, the majority of the rich are not busy making money.
Thats just another part of the capitalist (inhuman) theory about what happens.

As for capitalism benefiting society, I disagree. Don't misunderstand me I understand how it works well enough and will profit from it personally, because it exists. But I know full well that the profit I make is unfair and excessive. It can benefit those with savings, those with a regular well paid income, but the majority of the people on the planet are harmed.

I hope you won't tell me now that you are a proponent of the absurd extreme neo liberal trickle down theory supported by Reagan, Bush and company.

It does not trickle down, never did, never will.

Danilo stop trying to move the goalposts. One moment you are spewing capitalist theory about how workers in a factory gain experience enabling them to get another job, then once you concede that there will be no other jobs once an industry moves on its 'bolje ista nego nista'. So if that is your position then why repeat lies from defence of capitalism theory? How much more of this mantra is based upon lies and why don't supporters of capitalism tell the truth rather than refer to nonsensical theory?

Danilo I agree with you in some part that there are people who become well off due to their own hard work. But you agree with me that MOST rich people are born that way, just as MOST poor people born into poverty will stay that way. Does it make you happy to think that it doesn't matter how hard some poor people work that they will never get out of poverty? Does it make you happy that there is example after example of mediocre children of the rich going around in their luxury cars, going to parties and essentially doing nothing all day long?

Is this the kind of society we deserve? But hey lets kick those in poverty again, it must be their fault!

One last point this other 'economic' use of the truth that 'we all get richer' is langauge to hide the fact that the gap between the rich and poor gets wider all the time.

Oh there are plenty of people who lead lives of leisure, don't you believe it Danilo.

And leading a life of leisure boring? I can only say that those who find their lives boring because they have too much money for example have no imagination whatever.

Ask the hundreds of thousands of kids working in the sweatshops all over the world whether they prefer working over a life of leisure so that you and I can have cheaper clothing.

I think you know the answer to that one.

As for life of leisure, most people with money are busy making more money.

Danilo how can you not get it? Its not about bitching and moaning. Any more than it is about you bitching and moaning about opposition to capitalism. Its about the fact that some people / hell MOST people on this planet do not have the same opportunities that we do.

Do you think that most of those people are moaning that somebody should pay them for nothing? No, they are too busy trying to put food on the table. I'm not talking about the minority of people on social security in a handful of states in the west that the tabloid press is so fond of talking about in those countries.

Most of these people stuck in poverty - that you seem happy to continue, don't even know what capitalism is and how it functions. As for finding a job, even in western societies, do you know what 'full employment' means? It does not mean that, it is a term that 'kindly' economists use to describe when an economy is working at full capacity - in other words there will ALWAYS be unemployment. In other words there are not enough jobs to go around.

Open your eyes, perhaps capitalism serves you and I, but it does not serve most people on this planet. If you don't care then say so, but don't pretend it helps those born into poverty.

Danilo obviously some people are more selfish than others. And being self interested is not quite the same as being selfish. Because you believe that everybody is selfish you can't possibly understand why somebody who is doing well in life could possibly want to see his own taxes being raised, can you? Or with your logic, all poor people should support higher taxes for the rich?

That is a very simplistic viewpoint, you are assuming that nobody is capable at looking at the bigger picture, that everybody is just representing their own self interest. That is largely a theory from conservative (right wing) thought. Democratic Socialist thought believes that society is more important than the individual. I know you will be tempted to give a critique of communism now but I'm not talking about communist philosophy I'm talking about the original philosophy of the the British Labour Party and any number of non communist countries in western Europe that helped found for example the principle of free health care for all.

Who said anything about violence? Do you consider taxation an act of violence? I know that extremists in the United States for example do consider taxation an act of violence by the federal government. Usually they are the same crowd as the gun lobby and the other assorted loons on the right.

Why on earth do you consider that I covet another man's car? Because again you are judging me by some low standard that you think makes everybody selfish? I find that unbelievable. My point is that people that believe in the 'American dream' viewpoint of life are living in a dream world. Most of them fail and if you don't believe that then check out the numerous social mobility studies made. Check out the richest people on the Forbes rich list, most were born into riches or came from middle class backgrounds.

But I am familiar with your form of argumentation now. You will avoid the issue and say that I am suggesting violence or that I want their riches right? Or that because I'm pointing out facts I'm crying about something, yeah? You will have to do better than that really.

'This may be true' might mean something is true and it also mean that you are not sure. But Danilo if you are telling me you don't know in one moment and that you are convinced it is not the case in the next, it kind of devalues everything you write.
I'm not a mind-reader to know when you are being 'nice'.

I should have put "workers" in quotation marks.

Aren't we all workers?

I don't think anyone lives a life of leisure. That would be boring.

The point being, bganon, is that each and every one of us is responsible for ourselves, whatever our lot in life, to improve ourselves, if we wish, and not sit around demanding that someone else take care of us.

How disempowering to think that someone else must bestow a better life on you instead of taking it in your own hands. Don't like your wage? get a new job. Make your own job. Invent a better mouse-trap.

Alternately, you can bitch and moan about how the world isn't providing according to your expectations. Blame 'capitalism' maybe. It's unfortunate that that sort of dreck has traction here. Unfortunate only because it keeps people disempowered.

hope you won't tell me now that you are a proponent of the absurd extreme neo liberal trickle down theory supported by Reagan, Bush and company.

It does not trickle down, never did, never will.
(bganon, 1 May 2011 23:44)

Dear boy,

Reagan and Bush were hardly considered "extreme neo liberals", well, maybe in Serbia. Perhaps, you should familiarize yourself with Arthur Laffer and his economic theory. On the other hand, English may not be your mother tongue.

"Wait and see what happens when international tobacco companies will move on from Serbia when excise duty and company taxes go up. Those workers going to get lovely new jobs because of their experience in the factory"

So, what? It's better that what? They're not here now giving jobs now?


"The majority of rich people around the world were born into riches"

While this may be true, This:

"and have little incentive to work."

is the fantasy of poor people and reveals something terrible in the Serbian psyche. So many people here don't want to work. They really would rather just not. I know lots of rich people who became so on their own hard work and ingenuity. Guess what? It makes them work harder. People work because it makes them better and people work to better themselves. It's astonishing how few people in this part of the world see things this way.


"I hope you won't tell me now that you are a proponent of the absurd extreme neo liberal trickle down theory supported by Reagan, Bush and company. "

Now you're starting to sound like an angry first-year university student, who screams "TRICKLE DOWN" when railing against inequality.

Reagan's supply-side economics (referred to by some as "trickle down economics"), is the (mostly wrong) notion, and failed economic policy that if the rich don't pay taxes, they'll spend that money on things that will develop the economy, not the general notion that as the rich get richer, the poor get richer too (which is demonstrably true).

"The rich" aren't "workers'" enemies. Laziness and deeply ingrained, disempowering communistic notions are.

Actually, bganon, it's you who first moved the goal posts by taking immediately about 3rd world sweat shops when I was talking about workers in Serbia.

I just went with it.


"But you agree with me that MOST rich people are born that way"

I don't. Most rich Serbs I know, for example, in America, came to the Americas in the 30s and 40s with nothing but a suitcase and will to succeed.


I'm still not sure what, exactly, it is you're trying to say other than blowing some "life's not fair" smoke.

If that's the point you're trying to make, I won't disagree.

"this may be true" doesn't mean "I think this is true". It's just a nice way of deferring to your point without argument. "This may be true" isn't furthering an opinion.

"selfish"

Let's make something absolutely clear: I am selfish. We are all selfish. We all want the most we can get. These workers protesting are doing so because their selfish. There is nothing that anyone on this planet does that isn't selfish. Mother Theresa is selfish. We all do what we WANT and, ultimately what we want for OURSELVES.


So, what exactly are you positing here?

Are you saying "life isn't fair! (wa wa wa)"?

or are you laying down the ideological groundwork that gives permission to take (ie, commit violence) from those whom you feel don't deserve their riches.

Do you think this hypothetical mediocre rich man's son driving around in a car that you covet should be separated from his car because that would be "fair"?

I personally couldn't care less about this hypothetical person. It has no affect on me whatsoever.

Are you just complaining that some people have more than others, or is there something more going on here?

@Danilo

Stop arguing with bganon.It`s worthless.
He was probably a student whose daddy(100% a public employee) was paying the student fees until now and he suddenly found out after graduating that he actually needs to work if he wants to own a car,house,go out etc.
Unfortunately 80% of the Serbian youth is that lazy,that is what communism does with people,it dums them down and makes them lazy!(they "learned" it from their parents)
Look at Serbia,we have minerals and resources,vast fertile fields in the Vojvodina,a central position in SE Europe ,industrial and intellectual potentials,but no,Serbs don`t want to work but want to philosiphy.
Somebody should grab bganon by the ear,and take him to an acre in Vojvodina and let him work...

Danilo I heard it all before, but its kind of inhuman this argument supporting capitalism isn't it? If you have a heart you must know that.

Nobody is forcing them to work there? On the other hand they are forced to work there because there is nowhere else to work. Who 'forces' these companies to use child labour in sweatshops? As for a workforce getting trained, utter nonsense. Wait and see what happens when international tobacco companies will move on from Serbia when excise duty and company taxes go up. Those workers going to get lovely new jobs because of their experience in the factory. Yeah right, like you don't know reality?

The majority of rich people around the world were born into riches and have little incentive to work. It is the minority who worked for it. So no I'd disagree with you, the majority of the rich are not busy making money.
Thats just another part of the capitalist (inhuman) theory about what happens.

As for capitalism benefiting society, I disagree. Don't misunderstand me I understand how it works well enough and will profit from it personally, because it exists. But I know full well that the profit I make is unfair and excessive. It can benefit those with savings, those with a regular well paid income, but the majority of the people on the planet are harmed.

I hope you won't tell me now that you are a proponent of the absurd extreme neo liberal trickle down theory supported by Reagan, Bush and company.

It does not trickle down, never did, never will.

Dear workers,

You've lived for generations under communism, so you are confused.

A unit of labour is like anything else bought and sold on the free marketplace. No one owes you anything. Welcome to the real world.

The point being, bganon, is that each and every one of us is responsible for ourselves, whatever our lot in life, to improve ourselves, if we wish, and not sit around demanding that someone else take care of us.

How disempowering to think that someone else must bestow a better life on you instead of taking it in your own hands. Don't like your wage? get a new job. Make your own job. Invent a better mouse-trap.

Alternately, you can bitch and moan about how the world isn't providing according to your expectations. Blame 'capitalism' maybe. It's unfortunate that that sort of dreck has traction here. Unfortunate only because it keeps people disempowered.

Oh there are plenty of people who lead lives of leisure, don't you believe it Danilo.

And leading a life of leisure boring? I can only say that those who find their lives boring because they have too much money for example have no imagination whatever.

Ask the hundreds of thousands of kids working in the sweatshops all over the world whether they prefer working over a life of leisure so that you and I can have cheaper clothing.

I think you know the answer to that one.

Bganon.

The proverbial sweatshop: Firstly, no one is forcing them to work there. In fact, they probably line up around the block for a job there. It's not the factory's fault for a poor situation where they have built. Their presence improves the lot of the people there. Are they better off without the jobs? Their life is heaven without the opportunity to work in the factory?

When a factory opens in a poor region and people go to work there, a workforce gets trained and the success of the factory attracts other factories to develop in the region. What does this do? This raises the wages as multiple factories compete for a limited labour pool.

some people are born into unfortunate circumstances. Free-market global capitalism helps people in the long run, rather than being the source of it.

There's no deus-ex-machina fix to inequality.

Serbia should take advantage of their low-wage situation and market themselves as an outsourcing/nearsourcing centre.

hope you won't tell me now that you are a proponent of the absurd extreme neo liberal trickle down theory supported by Reagan, Bush and company.

It does not trickle down, never did, never will.
(bganon, 1 May 2011 23:44)

Dear boy,

Reagan and Bush were hardly considered "extreme neo liberals", well, maybe in Serbia. Perhaps, you should familiarize yourself with Arthur Laffer and his economic theory. On the other hand, English may not be your mother tongue.

@Danilo

Stop arguing with bganon.It`s worthless.
He was probably a student whose daddy(100% a public employee) was paying the student fees until now and he suddenly found out after graduating that he actually needs to work if he wants to own a car,house,go out etc.
Unfortunately 80% of the Serbian youth is that lazy,that is what communism does with people,it dums them down and makes them lazy!(they "learned" it from their parents)
Look at Serbia,we have minerals and resources,vast fertile fields in the Vojvodina,a central position in SE Europe ,industrial and intellectual potentials,but no,Serbs don`t want to work but want to philosiphy.
Somebody should grab bganon by the ear,and take him to an acre in Vojvodina and let him work...

I should have put "workers" in quotation marks.

Aren't we all workers?

I don't think anyone lives a life of leisure. That would be boring.

Danilo how can you not get it? Its not about bitching and moaning. Any more than it is about you bitching and moaning about opposition to capitalism. Its about the fact that some people / hell MOST people on this planet do not have the same opportunities that we do.

Do you think that most of those people are moaning that somebody should pay them for nothing? No, they are too busy trying to put food on the table. I'm not talking about the minority of people on social security in a handful of states in the west that the tabloid press is so fond of talking about in those countries.

Most of these people stuck in poverty - that you seem happy to continue, don't even know what capitalism is and how it functions. As for finding a job, even in western societies, do you know what 'full employment' means? It does not mean that, it is a term that 'kindly' economists use to describe when an economy is working at full capacity - in other words there will ALWAYS be unemployment. In other words there are not enough jobs to go around.

Open your eyes, perhaps capitalism serves you and I, but it does not serve most people on this planet. If you don't care then say so, but don't pretend it helps those born into poverty.

"this may be true" doesn't mean "I think this is true". It's just a nice way of deferring to your point without argument. "This may be true" isn't furthering an opinion.

"selfish"

Let's make something absolutely clear: I am selfish. We are all selfish. We all want the most we can get. These workers protesting are doing so because their selfish. There is nothing that anyone on this planet does that isn't selfish. Mother Theresa is selfish. We all do what we WANT and, ultimately what we want for OURSELVES.


So, what exactly are you positing here?

Are you saying "life isn't fair! (wa wa wa)"?

or are you laying down the ideological groundwork that gives permission to take (ie, commit violence) from those whom you feel don't deserve their riches.

Do you think this hypothetical mediocre rich man's son driving around in a car that you covet should be separated from his car because that would be "fair"?

I personally couldn't care less about this hypothetical person. It has no affect on me whatsoever.

Are you just complaining that some people have more than others, or is there something more going on here?

Danilo obviously some people are more selfish than others. And being self interested is not quite the same as being selfish. Because you believe that everybody is selfish you can't possibly understand why somebody who is doing well in life could possibly want to see his own taxes being raised, can you? Or with your logic, all poor people should support higher taxes for the rich?

That is a very simplistic viewpoint, you are assuming that nobody is capable at looking at the bigger picture, that everybody is just representing their own self interest. That is largely a theory from conservative (right wing) thought. Democratic Socialist thought believes that society is more important than the individual. I know you will be tempted to give a critique of communism now but I'm not talking about communist philosophy I'm talking about the original philosophy of the the British Labour Party and any number of non communist countries in western Europe that helped found for example the principle of free health care for all.

Who said anything about violence? Do you consider taxation an act of violence? I know that extremists in the United States for example do consider taxation an act of violence by the federal government. Usually they are the same crowd as the gun lobby and the other assorted loons on the right.

Why on earth do you consider that I covet another man's car? Because again you are judging me by some low standard that you think makes everybody selfish? I find that unbelievable. My point is that people that believe in the 'American dream' viewpoint of life are living in a dream world. Most of them fail and if you don't believe that then check out the numerous social mobility studies made. Check out the richest people on the Forbes rich list, most were born into riches or came from middle class backgrounds.

But I am familiar with your form of argumentation now. You will avoid the issue and say that I am suggesting violence or that I want their riches right? Or that because I'm pointing out facts I'm crying about something, yeah? You will have to do better than that really.

'This may be true' might mean something is true and it also mean that you are not sure. But Danilo if you are telling me you don't know in one moment and that you are convinced it is not the case in the next, it kind of devalues everything you write.
I'm not a mind-reader to know when you are being 'nice'.

As for life of leisure, most people with money are busy making more money.

"Wait and see what happens when international tobacco companies will move on from Serbia when excise duty and company taxes go up. Those workers going to get lovely new jobs because of their experience in the factory"

So, what? It's better that what? They're not here now giving jobs now?


"The majority of rich people around the world were born into riches"

While this may be true, This:

"and have little incentive to work."

is the fantasy of poor people and reveals something terrible in the Serbian psyche. So many people here don't want to work. They really would rather just not. I know lots of rich people who became so on their own hard work and ingenuity. Guess what? It makes them work harder. People work because it makes them better and people work to better themselves. It's astonishing how few people in this part of the world see things this way.


"I hope you won't tell me now that you are a proponent of the absurd extreme neo liberal trickle down theory supported by Reagan, Bush and company. "

Now you're starting to sound like an angry first-year university student, who screams "TRICKLE DOWN" when railing against inequality.

Reagan's supply-side economics (referred to by some as "trickle down economics"), is the (mostly wrong) notion, and failed economic policy that if the rich don't pay taxes, they'll spend that money on things that will develop the economy, not the general notion that as the rich get richer, the poor get richer too (which is demonstrably true).

"The rich" aren't "workers'" enemies. Laziness and deeply ingrained, disempowering communistic notions are.

Danilo stop trying to move the goalposts. One moment you are spewing capitalist theory about how workers in a factory gain experience enabling them to get another job, then once you concede that there will be no other jobs once an industry moves on its 'bolje ista nego nista'. So if that is your position then why repeat lies from defence of capitalism theory? How much more of this mantra is based upon lies and why don't supporters of capitalism tell the truth rather than refer to nonsensical theory?

Danilo I agree with you in some part that there are people who become well off due to their own hard work. But you agree with me that MOST rich people are born that way, just as MOST poor people born into poverty will stay that way. Does it make you happy to think that it doesn't matter how hard some poor people work that they will never get out of poverty? Does it make you happy that there is example after example of mediocre children of the rich going around in their luxury cars, going to parties and essentially doing nothing all day long?

Is this the kind of society we deserve? But hey lets kick those in poverty again, it must be their fault!

One last point this other 'economic' use of the truth that 'we all get richer' is langauge to hide the fact that the gap between the rich and poor gets wider all the time.

Actually, bganon, it's you who first moved the goal posts by taking immediately about 3rd world sweat shops when I was talking about workers in Serbia.

I just went with it.


"But you agree with me that MOST rich people are born that way"

I don't. Most rich Serbs I know, for example, in America, came to the Americas in the 30s and 40s with nothing but a suitcase and will to succeed.


I'm still not sure what, exactly, it is you're trying to say other than blowing some "life's not fair" smoke.

If that's the point you're trying to make, I won't disagree.

Danilo you were referring to the benefits of capitalism so I just pointed out some flaws in this 'we can all have jobs and we all get richer' nonsense.

"But you agree with me that MOST rich people are born that way"

You - I don't.

"The majority of rich people around the world were born into riches"

You - While this may be true...

Danilo you should really make your mind up on what you believe. Orwell showed how its quite possible for certain people to hold contradictory opinions at the same time, but this is taking it too far.

Let me make it crystal clear for you understand capitalism ensures that those who are rich, stay rich and ensures that those who are poor stay poor. There are exceptions to the rule, thank god.

That is the system you support, live with it.

Of course I'm a hypocrite because I use the system to get ahead, but at least I don't try to sugar coat reality to make myself feel better about my selfishness.