Hague jails two, acquits one Croat general

I'm not kidding; theres actually people letting off fireworks in Wellington because of this.

A very important verdict for many reasons - the historical record, justice for the victims and even the credibility of the Hague.

And this occuring when the Croatian media and Gotovina's supporters had largely succeeded in persuading the rest of us that they would either be released or

I am now watching HRT 1, the Croatian first channel. They are discussing whether the national day to celebrate the 'freeing of Knin' should be cancelled, as the day has been clearly recorded by the Hague as a war crime.

One last point the Croatian government organised 'celebrations' in the centre of Zagreb and errected huge tv screens etc. How stupid can they get? Now people are going to be more disappointed and angry than ever and the Croatian government will take the blame.

It remains to be seen whether this verdict will be appealed, but by the fact that there was very little dissenting comments from any of the judges, it looks as if any appeal would not produce much difference in a verdict.

It would be better for Serbia to stay far and clear of Croatia!
(Another Canadian Serb, 15 April 2011 12:36)
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I think you are right. Croatia belongs in the West with the rest of the Catholics. It is just a matter of coming to an agreement to go our separate ways, where Serbian lands are returned to us while they get their areas in BiH.

Personally, I have always thought the guilty verdict would come now but I wasn't too certain it would remain after an appeal. The US office at the NATO court either let this one go or will plan to have it reversed on appeal. You see, the US was highly involved in these operations, just like doing business with organ snatchers in KiM. It is in their interest to cover up and hide these crimes.

Gotovina found guilty and sentanced to 24 years :D

It would be better for Serbia to stay far and clear of Croatia!
(Another Canadian Serb, 15 April 2011 12:36)

Says the Serb who lives in far away Canada who does not suffer the hardship of us here in Serbia. How can Serbia get away from Croatia? What do you propose to do, build a rocket to the moon? Crotia is our next door neighbour and an important trading partner. Besides many Serbs live in Croatia and many Croats live in Serbia. I have a number of Croat friends and neighbours here in Belgrade who are good people.

Seriously genius, what will you have Belgrade do, deport all Croats from Serbia?

Another case of an expat with foot in mouth disease.

Besides, I hope Gotovina rots in hell.

If they can let Cermak go then logically and in all fairness they should release Seselj.

Justice is served! Veceras slavimo u Chikagu! We are celebrating tonight in Chicago!

Wow, what a speedy trial considering Milosevic spent 7 years at the All Inclusive Hague Resort. Vojislav Seselj is currently enjoying his All Inclusive vacation at the Hague and is now starting his 8th year.

Anyways, i am glad that Gotovina was sentenced, but i feel thatt the Serbian people were short changed.

I for one believe that Serbs and Croats should have no contact and or ties to each other. There are no other nations on earth that have so much hate and bad history with each other.

All this talk about reconciling relations and building joint econmomic ventures with Croatia is a time bomb waiting to explode.

It would be better for Serbia to stay far and clear of Croatia!

These neonazi ustashe shall burn in hell. We'll get the rest of the lot. Serbia's government is no longer yugoslav social (worker owned public enterprises), so the west does not hate us no more. The benefit is on our side. Lets get the rest of this band of criminals... the next step is to get other generals, and of course, a post-death trial for their biggest criminal, Tudjman.

Just my two cents - I do think we'll see an appeal but it's unlikely to be successful. I traveled through Krajina in 2002 and it was pretty obvious what was done to the areas in which Serbs had lived. Someone had to take the fall for that, especially since Tudjman never lived to see the indictment that likely would have been raised against him.

I don't share the view tha the US is working to sabotage justice here. Yes, they skirted the arms embargo and used retired military personnel to train the HV and HVO, but no US troops directly participated in Storm, so Croatian officers bear ultimate responsibility for the crimes committed. I also think that governments of the world have far more important things to worry about these days than prosecuting Americans for their covert involvement (the impact of which can be debated ad infinitum) in Balkan affairs 15-20 years back. Things like financial crises, Arab revolutions and Japanese earthquakes are much more pressing matters.

Hopefully this verdict will prove a step forward in the improvement of relations between Serbs and Croats. There is a very long way to go, and I must say that I find it deeply disturbing that Croats were packing churches praying for acquittals last night. Even more disturbing was the fact that they had the full backing of the Catholic Church, which no doubt out of desperation panders to this wing of its flock, hoping no one around the world will notice.

The Croats talk about their victory they were being kicked from pillar to post until the Amercans saved their cowardly a****. Lets go again and sort this out once and for all.

Apologies for that broken sentence what I meant to say is that many of us had been persuaded by the Gotovina lobby to expect that Gotovina would be set free with a possible guilty sentence on lesser charges. I believed it as well.

Zoran you did a good job in predicting the verdit, but I must admit I hadn't heard anybody say that Gotovina would be found guilty on the serious charges, or that the narrative (that is now entering history books as fact) that Tudjman organised the ethnic cleansing of Serbs on Brioni would be accepted by the judges so completely. So you are one of a kind! Either that or you are trying to downplay the verdict because it doesn't fit into your own view of the Hague.

In fact as I watched the verdicts being pronounced there was an elephant in the room, or perhaps a ghost lingering. It was exactly this:
Had Tujdman been alive and was being tried now there can be no doubt that he would have been found guilty on serious charges of war crimes and a joint criminal enterprise.

If one reads the judgement there can be no debate about this.

The first instance of ethnic cleansing of the wars was committed by croats against serbs in Gospic. The croats invented it. Fact.

24 and 18-are you kidding me..these people are responsible for biggest exodus and ethnic cleansing in EU history.They should a got life in prison for just killing old and helpless.
But better something then nothing-now is high time for thaci to fallow the suit..it will happen sooner than later,but we prefer sooner..

it is like arresting Polish generals of ww2 and punishing them in Nurenberg for crimes against german people in polish territory...
(iliri, 15 April 2011 20:42)
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So according to your logic, it was OK for Serbians to commit crimes against ethnic Albanians in the 90s because the territory at that time was considered sovereign to Serbia by the whole world.

Gotovina protected his country which was occupated by serbs.
(Mirel from Albania, 15 April 2011 15:47)
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I think you need to learn some history. How can Serbians, who have lived in that region for hundreds of years and fought against the Ottomans to protect that territory and western Europe be occupiers? Time for a reality check I think.

Look at these babies crying. Get used to it. We will reclaim our land and there is nothing you can do about it. What has Croatia given the world except Ustasa.

So why do Albanians write about this ? They should rather care about Albania.

Those who defended their country go to jail while Serb war criminals like Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic live free in Serbia. 'No justice, no peace'.

Janez

Other than the racial slurs, taunts and beatings, what exactly does Serbia benefit from Croatia?

Yes, you are so right in believing that Croatia is such a great ally and supoorter of Serbia; they have been Serbia's friends forever.

I have family that lives in downtown Belgrade, Zahumska to be more specific.

They have no problems with avoiding Croatia, makes no difference to them. By the way, what exactly do you do for a living?

I have to think that the Americans and any other foreign entities knew better than to encourage Croats to commit ethnic cleansing. They might very well have predicted what would happen, but that's another story.
(Nenad, 15 April 2011 22:01)
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Come on Nenad, these US companies were a front to train Croatian soldiers, provide weapons and intelligence, provide air cover for the whole operation that resulted in the mass ethnic cleansing of Serbians from those lands, where they had lived for hundreds of years. Ethnic cleansing of Serbians was politically accepted back then but not cleansing committed by Serbians. Why else haven't they created the conditions for Serbians to return back to Croatia and Kosovo?

Their go the Serbs on their tirades lets review the criminality of Serbia and the fanatical duped simpleton Serbs of it. Serbs Serbia occupied 25% of Croatia by murderous aggression ethnically cleansed 99.9% of Croatians and other minority peoples. Serbs summarily executed over 3000 people destroyed their houses churches trying to get rid of any traces of their existence in their own country of Croatia. Thousands more taken to Serbia and were tortured ,raped ,murdered their. We are still waiting for accounting from Serbia for over a thousand missing seen last alive in Serbia. Some Croatians of victimized areas by Serbs went to far in seeking revenge. When the Croatian army liberated in a lighting fast rout of the war mongering aggressor Serbs. But finding hundreds of mass graves of their relatives brutally murdered by their so called Serb neighbours their homes looted burned was to much for some. Yes some committed crimes those units from the ethnically cleansed brutally terrorized areas that were under Serb brutal criminal occupation should of been held back but hind sight is 20/20. With the west attacking moslem Libya they will have to show even handedness guess who is on top of their list the war criminal "Srpska" in Bosnia and northern Kosovo aka that gose under the name of Grater Serbia. Serbs are on a epic fail rout of their own making and at their own bloody hands as usual http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd755bbc8uw&feature=related .

(Mirel from Albania, 15 April 2011 20:17)
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Mirel from Albania, some people claim that isolation breeds ignorance. Somehow I believe there is some truth in that claim.

«It would be better for Serbia to stay far and clear of Croatia! »

I do not agree. I think that justice should be made for all victims, no matter the ethnicity, by sending to jail all those who committed crimes and, and all governements should recognonize the facts and present apologies. Not only for the civil war but also to WW2 when Serbs suffered more than in the 90s. This has to be done if we want to live together, and we have to because we cannot all move to Australia or Canada.

Are there any independent figures indicating what proportion of the Serb civilian population has returned to the Krajina?
And how does it look in Eastern Slavonia?

By Jugoslav constitution itself, Kosovo was autonomus territory, hence not exclusively serbian, by sending Jugoslav tanks to take over ,Serbia violated international law, Yugoslavia in principle reckognised the minorities and self-governing of Albanians in Kosovo up to a certain extent, even in technical terms, Kosovo was not Serbia during Yugoslavian period, or at least since 1974
(iliri, 15 April 2011 23:54)

There's spoofing and there is 'spoofing' but this takes the biscuit. How in the name of Jesus did Serbia violate international law by sending tanks to Kosmet?

I would like to highlight a couple of inaccuracies in your post if I may do so.

1) Serbia was a constituent republic of Yugoslavia so Serbia alone would not have a) authorisation to do so and b) there was no Serbian army in 1981, 1989 or 1999, it was the Yugoslav army.

2) Under the 1974 Yugoslav constitution, the SAP of Kosmet was a constituent part of the SR Serbia with autonomy under Yugoslav jurisdiction. The Yugoslav government when faced with an internal and existential threat to its security within its borders had full right under rule of law to uphold security as any other sovereign entity would do. Now tell me, how did the Yugoslav government in 1989 or 1999 violate international law Mr Genius when dealing with a violent secessionist outbreak of violence which threatened the very basis of the Yugoslav state itself. I mean come on, Britian sent troops to Northern Ireland (which had its own autonomy) in 1969 to deal with an outbreak of violence and that threatened the peace and security of its citizens after the police were unable or unwilling to uphold its duty in protecting its citizens. Did Britain violate international law? No it didn't, it acted just as Yugoslavia did 20 odd years later when faced with a similar outbreak of violence in Kosmet.

If anything both the UK and YU acted under the remit of their own respective laws and constitutions and need I say the Helsinki Agreement.

...and all of this nonsense about pushing the Serbs back to Belgrade, is quite frankly.......

nonsense.

Mirel!

It's because he evicted 700,000 Albanians from Croatia that he was sentenced to 24 years.

Sorry, i meant to write 1,000,000 Albanians.

Well what do you know. Justice actually prevailed here. For a minute I actually thought Gotovina was either going to walk or get a "time served" slap on the wrist. I'm glad to now know that one of Croatia's greatest "heroes" is just another washed up war criminal doomed to suffer both 24 years and eventualy irrelevancy in jail. What's actually funny, if I can stem from bganon's post about Croat responses is that Croatian TV apparently had reporters in Belgrade today interviewing Serbs for their reaction to the verdict - as if they were basically expecting some sort of hubristic triumphalism. Instead, they got a lot of indifferent responses, including one Krajina refugee who even said something to the effect that "it was 15 years ago, it doesn't matter to me anymore." So for all of Croatia's emotional pangs and apparnt obsession with everything Serbian (and we have to thank Lenard for being this site's model), it would seem even Gotovina's vicitms no longer think he's a relevant character.

"Their message is that the butcher and the victim is the same and both should be punished." (Miriel)

-- No, what this means is that the Hague cast Gotovina as a butcher, not a victim.

and Lenard, I'm so happy you took the time out of your crying and sobbing to rant and rave on B92. You're a testament to irrational, outdated, and completely clueless Croatian nationalism.

I could actually care less about slavs, croats, serbs, muslims...same to me, they are a bunch of slavs who hate each other afterall, but... i have to admit that kicking serbs out of Croatia is settling justice, it was revenge for Vukovar, and, if we look at history, serbs have never lived in Dalmatia, serbs settled in Dalmatia after ww1 as a serbian policy to colonise entire Yugoslavia...personally i consider Croatian generals, one of whomm was Albanian, great heroes, they served their country, serbs understand only violence, if you choose the peaceful path in dealing with serbs ,krajina or whetever they called it would end up like north mitrovica in Kosovo...Croats did what needed to be done.

Weird though, when Hague processes serbs, suddenly the serbs cry about how unjustly they are being demonised...while in fact, serbian generals are being acused of crimes they commited outsied Serbian territory, while Croatian, Albanian and Muslim generals or commandants did not commit any single crime inside Serbian territory...it is like arresting Polish generals of ww2 and punishing them in Nurenberg for crimes against german people in polish territory...

Any Serb who considers this a victory is a fool. This was an arrangment made by the Croatian government and the Hague in order to remove a popular threat to said government, not any genuine attempt to "punish war crimes". Say what you will about Gotovina but he was a profesional and a worthy adversary. In fact he ended up becoming good friends with many of his fellow Hague inmates, mostly Serbs. He even signed a condolence letter for Milosevic. That is boss.
This is just more Western meddling and stirring of the pot. Today a Croat General, tomorrow a Serb.
I am sure you all remember the band Azra? That hit Balkane?
"Mi smo ljudi cigani sudbinom prokleti, uvijek netko oko nas dodje pa nam prijeti"...Think about it.


Bravo, absolutely correct. General Gotovina is no more guilty than General Lazerevic, Ojdanic or Pavkovic of the Yugoslav army. General Gotovina was ordered to do his duty under the recognized Croat republic by the then leader Franjo Tudjman. The war criminals are the western nations who tore Yugoslavia apart. The war criminals are Hans Deitrich Gensher of Germany as well as the Vatican who immediately recognized Croatia in the middle of a revolution against the Yugoslav constitution.

For the Albanian posters who have no clue about the break up of Yugoslavia, this was a revolution, Serbia did not invade Croatia, B&H etc. Quite the contrary , it was the Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians who began the uprising by seizing JNA barracks. The same can be said in Kosovo where the KLA terrorist group started killing Yugoslav police and civilians.

General Gotovina did his duty as a soldier and in fact there is evidence that he gave direct orders not to kill civilians in any manner. It was Tudjman who ordered the torching of KNIN in coordination with NATO bombers who are the real war criminals.
Need it be reminded again the Tudjman army rolled over the United Nations barriers killing UN personnel forever sealing the fate of the UN as a viable peacekeeping organization.

There are many calles in Libya for the UN to step in, but the UN is a defunct organization taken over by NATO which does not represent the views of the world.

Iliri

But the shelling of Vukovar was retribution for World War II.

So i guess the score is even, eh Iliri!

Does everybody know why all this happened ?
There was never real justice after WWII ?
After the death off Marchal Broz Tito the pot started boiling again.
So finally what happened had to happen. When eventually everybody will be judged you will be ok to go on with your lives and stand by each other in the future. Too bad you guys didn `t want this country called Yougoslavia. I hope you will be more happy in the EU.

Mirel from Albania

By your way of thinking there shouldn't be any Germany today because of their nazi past. This also means that the albanians, who supported the nazis, should have been expelled or killed from all areas of the balkans after WW2 ended. And there shouldn't be an America because of it's aggression and war crimes in Vietnam, Irak and Afghanistan.

Interesting how the albanians, croats and muslims just loved the Hague until now. Resent events just shows that the West is finally realizing who really counts in the Balkans. And it ain't Croatia and Kosovo.

Hague is making a big mistake by sentencing Gotovina.Their message is that the butcher and the victim is the same and both should be punished.Gotovina protected his country which was occupated by serbs.
In Nouremberg trial, nazis were sentenced,but Hague ruling tells me that also Stalin and Churchill should be in jail too, despide the fact that they were protected their country.
Equilizing Gotovina with Miloshevich,Karaxhich or Shesel is just a bad joke.Victims of serbian occuopation don't deserve this.

Oh come on Lenard!

You make it sound like a bad thing.

Look at the bright side of it!

Gotovina's lawyer has already announced that he'll appeal the verdict... Now, independent of whether they acquit him in appeals (on the basis of the evidence provided, i think an acquittal is fairly unlikely; but you never know indeed), the one thing that is for sure not going to be reversed on appeal is the posthumous verdict on Tudjman and, hence, on the Croatian state. And this is what really matters for the future, both symbolicaly and legally speaking.

Please refresh my memory why Gotovina should be sentenced:
Did Croatian army enter the Republic of Serbia and killed innocent serbs?Did Croatian army shelled and bombed Belgrade,Nis or Novi Sad?
If the answer is NO and Gotovina is innocent.
I remember very well that it was serbian army shelling Dubrovnik and leveling off Vukovar.
Gotovina just protected his country,if he and his army would have crossed into Serbia OK than he may be criminal.Why serbian army was in Croatia in the first plase?
I have said before that Hague is becoming a joke.Gotovina is guilty and Milosevic died innocent.Good job Hague!Now start and put in jail slovenians and nuns in Croatia who were raped and continue to punish the bosnians who were selling in the Sarajevo market,or albanians who were forced to leave Kosova in 1999.

Croatia is very close to become an EU member.In the future Serbia will need Croatia's approval also if it wants to join the EU. It will be smart on serbian politicians not to provoke the Croatian people with any nationalistic statements after this.

Zoran you did a good job in predicting the verdit, but I must admit I hadn't heard anybody say that Gotovina would be found guilty on the serious charges, or that the narrative (that is now entering history books as fact) that Tudjman organised the ethnic cleansing of Serbs on Brioni would be accepted by the judges so completely.
(bganon, 15 April 2011 18:13)
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You go too far into details when it doesn't really matter. This is a political court and it will make political decisions. At this point in time it was the politically correct decision but had the judgement been made three years ago I suspect it would be a not guilty. Just like Seselj won't be released before the next Serbian elections and just like Haradinaj will be found guity. Do you know what political conditions are making it that way?

Nenad, you seem to think corporate America and the US government are detached? The reason they do things though companies is to make it less problematic for the government but they are still the ones pulling the strings. Why do you think there are so many "private" contractors in Iraq and elsewhere? Why do you think the first line of attack come as representitives of US companies and not the government? It is just their way of pushing though policy with a cover in place. It is explained very nicely here by someone who was doing it. Check -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKRKZqdgBXg

Thanks to Gotovina and his collegues among them Agim Ceku and croatian army,Croatia today ia a normal state ready to join EU.If they wouldn't fight back, Croatia would have been a difuncional state like Bosnia or Northen Kosovo.
Zoran!
Unlike you who have traveled only in Serbia ,Russia and China,in last 20 years of democracy, I have traveled most of Europe and North and South America.
I am amazed with you comments:"Serbs have done nothong,serbs have loved everyone in former YU" type.I am pretty sure even you compatriots don't believe those statements.I feel sorry for you!Have a nice weekend!

The Croats talk about their victory they were being kicked from pillar to post until the Amercans saved their cowardly a****. Lets go again and sort this out once and for all.
(Srboljub, 15 April 2011 16:00)

Your comments sound pretty cowardly to me.
Lets hope you are a minority and we in the balkans can move forward, even with political courts like the Hague.

On another note, given that Serbia inherited the Yugoslav army resources and attacked its neighbors trying to get "all Serbs in one state"...
(KU, 16 April 2011 21:32)
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There was no effort trying to get "all Serbs in one state" because we already were in one state. It was called Yugoslavia. Milosevic was attempting to preserve that state so Serbians could continue to live as they had for decades.

Zoran of course it matters! In case you haven't noticed it history is a war of opinions as much as it is the truth.

In other words verdicts like this impact on the 'official' version of history. From the Serbian perspective it makes for a more even narrative about what happened in the past. The Croatian nationalist perspective has suffered a defeat today. I don't mean all of Croatia, it is time that a clear division exists between ordinary Croats and nationalists who have their own agenda and narrative they have been trying to impose for god knows how long.

In case you are comparing this to Kosovo ind was not illegal news, as I suspect you are - the only thing that is the same here is that you witnessed both and nothing appeared to change. But this is completely different, perhaps you would have to be in Croatia to appreciate it fully. I have friends both Croatian Serbs and Croats from opposite sides of the fence who are convinced this means a serious break with what has gone before in one way or another.

Marcus you are ignoring the political leadership in Croatia in this instance. Nobody forced Tudjman to adopt a policy of ethnic cleansing. For sure the US armed them, trained them and gave the green light. If you are trying to argue that people should not be punished for war crimes because of US imperialism I strongly disagree. My only issue is that US crimes should be equally tried in a court in front of unbiased judges.

And Marcus please explain how exactly this verdict benefits the Croatian government. Are you trying to make me laugh or what? This verdict does not remove a threat to the Croatian government, it very much increases the threat to the Croatian government.

And as for Gotovina being a good guy because he was friends with Milosevic. Well Legija was good friends with many Croatians from the underworld, that makes him a decent sort as well? Or more precisely these 'good guys' can go round killing, stealing and plundering innocent people, telling nationalist stories and then behind bars are friends with each other.

That is something we are suppose to admire??? I prefer nationalists to false patriots who are in fact common criminals.

Someone said why Albanians comment on this...maybe because, croatia is our balkan neighbour, or at least soon enough will be our neighbour :) what history taught us, is that Bosnia and Croatia are like scenarious of what will happen in Kosovo..they divided Bosnia, but could not divide Croatia, so , Croatia was successful and we need to follow that example...

May i remind you that Yugoslav kingdom and their secret service rounded up thousands of croatian and slovenian intelectuals during the perioud between the two world wars, well, few of these intelectuals had done serious research on Albanology, on of them was the founder of Albanology at first place...perhaps, if serbs were not that greedy, croatian revenge in ww2 would not get out of control...also many Albanians fought on croatian side during the yugoslav wars, and they perforemd rather good...

yet serbs are furious, let them be...Let their tanks pass the Kosovo border, and the march will end in Belgrade...
(iliri, 15 April 2011 23:54)
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We are not furious at all. We have been sitting at the negotiating table for a very long time, mainly alone but I'm glad we are finally joined by your guys and others. Negotiations are the only way my friend while truth and reconciliation will set us free.

Any Serb who considers this a victory is a fool. This was an arrangment made by the Croatian government and the Hague in order to remove a popular threat to said government, not any genuine attempt to "punish war crimes". Say what you will about Gotovina but he was a profesional and a worthy adversary. In fact he ended up becoming good friends with many of his fellow Hague inmates, mostly Serbs. He even signed a condolence letter for Milosevic. That is boss.
This is just more Western meddling and stirring of the pot. Today a Croat General, tomorrow a Serb.
I am sure you all remember the band Azra? That hit Balkane?
"Mi smo ljudi cigani sudbinom prokleti, uvijek netko oko nas dodje pa nam prijeti"...Think about it.

''So according to your logic, it was OK for Serbians to commit crimes against ethnic Albanians in the 90s because the territory at that time was considered sovereign to Serbia by the whole world.
(Zoran, 15 April 2011 22:42) ''

By Jugoslav constitution itself, Kosovo was autonomus territory, hence not exclusively serbian, by sending Jugoslav tanks to take over ,Serbia violated international law, Yugoslavia in principle reckognised the minorities and self-governing of Albanians in Kosovo up to a certain extent, even in technical terms, Kosovo was not Serbia during Yugoslavian period, or at least since 1974...i mention the german-polish example because german people faced the consequences of the athrocities the nazis did, and Nurenberg did not go around arresting polish partizans...perhaps if croats, bosnian muslims and albanians burned belgrade to ground, Serbia would get over the past, but we didn't...so there will be no stabilitiy until the day belgrade and serbia are punished accordingly, . Any counry , be it Germany or Serbia, can not just start the mascarade and get away with it...the way i see it, Serbia won the Yugoslavian wars, western circles still support Serbia, probably because they don't see Bosnia and Kosovo from a muslim perspective to be a good idea, they have RS and northen of mitrovica...yet serbs are furious, let them be...Let their tanks pass the Kosovo border, and the march will end in Belgrade...

If some EU country who really rules with the EU wants Serbia to join EU it would happen without Croatian assent. Croatia will just accept that decision. I'm not at all surprised by usual Albanian posters here and their unfamiliarity with the history of ex Yugoslav states (I assume they don't even know much about their own history if they have it at all) and their support of war crimes committed over Serbs. We have already seen here that the same opinion they have when it comes about atrocities committed by K- Albanians over Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija.

Zoran of course it matters! In case you haven't noticed it history is a war of opinions as much as it is the truth.
(bganon, 15 April 2011 23:07)
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I understand the significance of this judgement but it will only hold if the appeal is not overturned (and there will be an appeal). My comment was referring to the political nature of this court so the facts are less relevant than the political atmosphere, which has changed (for better or worse).

Now lets wait for the appeal, which I hope fails but I have my doubts. This is a political game and Croatia will now fight much harder as it has much to lose.

yet serbs are furious, let them be...Let their tanks pass the Kosovo border, and the march will end in Belgrade...
(iliri, 15 April 2011 23:54)

Just wait until your Western saviors leave,then you will "be marched" back to Anadolia where you come from,if you make it...
Remember March 1999,back then you Albanians weren`t tough talking but crying for help and fleeing Serbias armed forces...
We saw your "fighting qualities" first hand,no need to brag about...

A miscarriage of justice... Everyone knows that Serbs were ordered to leave by Martic and had almost all left by the time Operation Storm commenced. Although the Hague acknowledged the fact that the Serbs evacuated under the orders of their leaders and of their free will, absurdly their own retreat was called ethnic cleansing. What of the 200,000 Croatians that the Serbs had ethnically cleansed from the Krajina at the beginning of the war?

It is an abomination that the individual directly responsible for the slaughter at Vukovar only got 10 years while Gotovina who denounced such barbarisms was sentenced to more than twice that.

The only people who cheer are people that do not value truth or justice.

Is that it? There are a lot of other croatians who should be in prison, particularly 'Admiral' Domazet who headed psychological operations over these operations"

In Feral Tribune, February 10, 2001:

Mysterious Flier "Spearheads" Storm

Darkness From Above:
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral156.html

"Two Chains
Thus, it can be concluded that even in the "propaganda" part of he war there was a double chain of "command". One, the official one, went via the Croatian TV and broadcast Tudman's message to the Serb civilians to stay in their homes, while the other, unofficial and secret chain of command "ordered" the Serb civilians via fliers to pull out of Krajina scaring them with the arrival of "the Ustashe army". Inasmuch as in the "ordinary" war the Croat leaders on several occasions exceeded the necessary self defense, it is obviously to be expected that they did the same in the conduct of "special" warfare.

Instead of causing panic and confusion in the Serb units by propaganda-psychological tricks, which is allowed by the Geneva Conventions under the category of "wartime trickery", panic and confusion were provoked among the civilians in order to prompt them to run en masse. And that mode of special warfare could clearly be named special ethnic cleansing."
***

Just in case anyone is confused about Tudjman's plans, here's the transcript as published also by Feral Tribune, July 4, 2003:

http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral214.html


I also suggest you google Gotovina's lawyer, Greg Kehoe. He has worked several times for the US government when it comes to war crimes. His main job with Gotovina was to stop him spilling the beans on the military help and other Croatia received from the US, Germany and other 'allies', but they are of course not responsible for war crimes even though under the statute of the UN those who have influence on parties and fail to use such influence to stop war crimes are also culpable. The UN even used it against Serbia over Srebrenica, but it of course doesn't apply to the above even though the US trained and provided a guiding hand through CIA mercenary front company MPRI, Military Professional Resources Incorporated and Germany shipped much of its East German arsenal through 'friendly' countries to Croatia.

Zoran,

I'm not sure what led you to think that I view the US government as "detached" from American corporations. I live in the US and know how it goes. My point was that in a court of law, I personally believe that it would be difficult for a prosecutor to prove that anyone other than Croats were guilty of war crimes against Serbs in Krajina. You could maybe try to bring a separate case against the Americans and others (Germans come to mind) for violation of the embargo, but I just don't see the outcome of these trials against Croat officers as having any material effect on such a case. You can sell a man a gun illegally, but what he does with it is his business. I have to think that the Americans and any other foreign entities knew better than to encourage Croats to commit ethnic cleansing. They might very well have predicted what would happen, but that's another story.

(Niall O'Doherty, 16 April 2011 12:16)

The Albanian rebels attacked serb policemen not earlier than 1997...but Serbia had revoked the autonomy in 1989... in principle, Serbia had been braking international laws from 1989 to 1999...or maybe Serbia had a time machine which could predict the future and knew that Albanians would uprise in 1998...so they revoked the autonomy 9 years earlier...

Oh that's impressive, 81 witnesses from prosecution and 57 from defense. I cannot see how this is a political decision from the Hague. After these many witnesses and accounts and inevitable fight between prosecution and defense on the version of the facts I think the verdict is hardly political. But one has to see the Hague documents online and read with their own eyes to really know the details. Usually there are names of victims and ages. Very often they have the same last name, whole families. One must get to the details and to the flesh and bones to get the real feeling of what a process in the Hague is about. Here, name by name:

http://www.icty.org/action/cases/4

On another note, given that Serbia inherited the Yugoslav army resources and attacked its neighbors trying to get "all Serbs in one state", people should not be upset if their neighbors fought back and got help from the US and other countries (mind you, three years later, not immediately). It is such a simple universal truth that if you attack you will be attacked back. It takes a Milosevic not to see it, or ignore it.

The Albanian rebels attacked serb policemen not earlier than 1997...but Serbia had revoked the autonomy in 1989... in principle, Serbia had been braking international laws from 1989 to 1999...or maybe Serbia had a time machine which could predict the future and knew that Albanians would uprise in 1998...so they revoked the autonomy 9 years earlier...
(iliri, 16 April 2011 15:46)

name the law that makes revoking autonomy illegal

Iliri I just have to ask you with the last comment you made are you taking sides with the Serb army or are you simply stating facts or what you perceive to be facts?

Hague is making a big mistake by sentencing Gotovina.Their message is that the butcher and the victim is the same and both should be punished.Gotovina protected his country which was occupated by serbs.
In Nouremberg trial, nazis were sentenced,but Hague ruling tells me that also Stalin and Churchill should be in jail too, despide the fact that they were protected their country.
Equilizing Gotovina with Miloshevich,Karaxhich or Shesel is just a bad joke.Victims of serbian occuopation don't deserve this.

I could actually care less about slavs, croats, serbs, muslims...same to me, they are a bunch of slavs who hate each other afterall, but... i have to admit that kicking serbs out of Croatia is settling justice, it was revenge for Vukovar, and, if we look at history, serbs have never lived in Dalmatia, serbs settled in Dalmatia after ww1 as a serbian policy to colonise entire Yugoslavia...personally i consider Croatian generals, one of whomm was Albanian, great heroes, they served their country, serbs understand only violence, if you choose the peaceful path in dealing with serbs ,krajina or whetever they called it would end up like north mitrovica in Kosovo...Croats did what needed to be done.

Weird though, when Hague processes serbs, suddenly the serbs cry about how unjustly they are being demonised...while in fact, serbian generals are being acused of crimes they commited outsied Serbian territory, while Croatian, Albanian and Muslim generals or commandants did not commit any single crime inside Serbian territory...it is like arresting Polish generals of ww2 and punishing them in Nurenberg for crimes against german people in polish territory...

Those who defended their country go to jail while Serb war criminals like Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic live free in Serbia. 'No justice, no peace'.

Their go the Serbs on their tirades lets review the criminality of Serbia and the fanatical duped simpleton Serbs of it. Serbs Serbia occupied 25% of Croatia by murderous aggression ethnically cleansed 99.9% of Croatians and other minority peoples. Serbs summarily executed over 3000 people destroyed their houses churches trying to get rid of any traces of their existence in their own country of Croatia. Thousands more taken to Serbia and were tortured ,raped ,murdered their. We are still waiting for accounting from Serbia for over a thousand missing seen last alive in Serbia. Some Croatians of victimized areas by Serbs went to far in seeking revenge. When the Croatian army liberated in a lighting fast rout of the war mongering aggressor Serbs. But finding hundreds of mass graves of their relatives brutally murdered by their so called Serb neighbours their homes looted burned was to much for some. Yes some committed crimes those units from the ethnically cleansed brutally terrorized areas that were under Serb brutal criminal occupation should of been held back but hind sight is 20/20. With the west attacking moslem Libya they will have to show even handedness guess who is on top of their list the war criminal "Srpska" in Bosnia and northern Kosovo aka that gose under the name of Grater Serbia. Serbs are on a epic fail rout of their own making and at their own bloody hands as usual http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd755bbc8uw&feature=related .

Please refresh my memory why Gotovina should be sentenced:
Did Croatian army enter the Republic of Serbia and killed innocent serbs?Did Croatian army shelled and bombed Belgrade,Nis or Novi Sad?
If the answer is NO and Gotovina is innocent.
I remember very well that it was serbian army shelling Dubrovnik and leveling off Vukovar.
Gotovina just protected his country,if he and his army would have crossed into Serbia OK than he may be criminal.Why serbian army was in Croatia in the first plase?
I have said before that Hague is becoming a joke.Gotovina is guilty and Milosevic died innocent.Good job Hague!Now start and put in jail slovenians and nuns in Croatia who were raped and continue to punish the bosnians who were selling in the Sarajevo market,or albanians who were forced to leave Kosova in 1999.

Croatia is very close to become an EU member.In the future Serbia will need Croatia's approval also if it wants to join the EU. It will be smart on serbian politicians not to provoke the Croatian people with any nationalistic statements after this.

If they can let Cermak go then logically and in all fairness they should release Seselj.

It would be better for Serbia to stay far and clear of Croatia!
(Another Canadian Serb, 15 April 2011 12:36)
--
I think you are right. Croatia belongs in the West with the rest of the Catholics. It is just a matter of coming to an agreement to go our separate ways, where Serbian lands are returned to us while they get their areas in BiH.

Personally, I have always thought the guilty verdict would come now but I wasn't too certain it would remain after an appeal. The US office at the NATO court either let this one go or will plan to have it reversed on appeal. You see, the US was highly involved in these operations, just like doing business with organ snatchers in KiM. It is in their interest to cover up and hide these crimes.

Wow, what a speedy trial considering Milosevic spent 7 years at the All Inclusive Hague Resort. Vojislav Seselj is currently enjoying his All Inclusive vacation at the Hague and is now starting his 8th year.

Anyways, i am glad that Gotovina was sentenced, but i feel thatt the Serbian people were short changed.

I for one believe that Serbs and Croats should have no contact and or ties to each other. There are no other nations on earth that have so much hate and bad history with each other.

All this talk about reconciling relations and building joint econmomic ventures with Croatia is a time bomb waiting to explode.

It would be better for Serbia to stay far and clear of Croatia!

The Croats talk about their victory they were being kicked from pillar to post until the Amercans saved their cowardly a****. Lets go again and sort this out once and for all.

Look at these babies crying. Get used to it. We will reclaim our land and there is nothing you can do about it. What has Croatia given the world except Ustasa.

These neonazi ustashe shall burn in hell. We'll get the rest of the lot. Serbia's government is no longer yugoslav social (worker owned public enterprises), so the west does not hate us no more. The benefit is on our side. Lets get the rest of this band of criminals... the next step is to get other generals, and of course, a post-death trial for their biggest criminal, Tudjman.

(Niall O'Doherty, 16 April 2011 12:16)

The Albanian rebels attacked serb policemen not earlier than 1997...but Serbia had revoked the autonomy in 1989... in principle, Serbia had been braking international laws from 1989 to 1999...or maybe Serbia had a time machine which could predict the future and knew that Albanians would uprise in 1998...so they revoked the autonomy 9 years earlier...

Any Serb who considers this a victory is a fool. This was an arrangment made by the Croatian government and the Hague in order to remove a popular threat to said government, not any genuine attempt to "punish war crimes". Say what you will about Gotovina but he was a profesional and a worthy adversary. In fact he ended up becoming good friends with many of his fellow Hague inmates, mostly Serbs. He even signed a condolence letter for Milosevic. That is boss.
This is just more Western meddling and stirring of the pot. Today a Croat General, tomorrow a Serb.
I am sure you all remember the band Azra? That hit Balkane?
"Mi smo ljudi cigani sudbinom prokleti, uvijek netko oko nas dodje pa nam prijeti"...Think about it.


Bravo, absolutely correct. General Gotovina is no more guilty than General Lazerevic, Ojdanic or Pavkovic of the Yugoslav army. General Gotovina was ordered to do his duty under the recognized Croat republic by the then leader Franjo Tudjman. The war criminals are the western nations who tore Yugoslavia apart. The war criminals are Hans Deitrich Gensher of Germany as well as the Vatican who immediately recognized Croatia in the middle of a revolution against the Yugoslav constitution.

For the Albanian posters who have no clue about the break up of Yugoslavia, this was a revolution, Serbia did not invade Croatia, B&H etc. Quite the contrary , it was the Croats, Slovenians and Bosnians who began the uprising by seizing JNA barracks. The same can be said in Kosovo where the KLA terrorist group started killing Yugoslav police and civilians.

General Gotovina did his duty as a soldier and in fact there is evidence that he gave direct orders not to kill civilians in any manner. It was Tudjman who ordered the torching of KNIN in coordination with NATO bombers who are the real war criminals.
Need it be reminded again the Tudjman army rolled over the United Nations barriers killing UN personnel forever sealing the fate of the UN as a viable peacekeeping organization.

There are many calles in Libya for the UN to step in, but the UN is a defunct organization taken over by NATO which does not represent the views of the world.

it is like arresting Polish generals of ww2 and punishing them in Nurenberg for crimes against german people in polish territory...
(iliri, 15 April 2011 20:42)
--
So according to your logic, it was OK for Serbians to commit crimes against ethnic Albanians in the 90s because the territory at that time was considered sovereign to Serbia by the whole world.

Thanks to Gotovina and his collegues among them Agim Ceku and croatian army,Croatia today ia a normal state ready to join EU.If they wouldn't fight back, Croatia would have been a difuncional state like Bosnia or Northen Kosovo.
Zoran!
Unlike you who have traveled only in Serbia ,Russia and China,in last 20 years of democracy, I have traveled most of Europe and North and South America.
I am amazed with you comments:"Serbs have done nothong,serbs have loved everyone in former YU" type.I am pretty sure even you compatriots don't believe those statements.I feel sorry for you!Have a nice weekend!

Iliri

But the shelling of Vukovar was retribution for World War II.

So i guess the score is even, eh Iliri!

Someone said why Albanians comment on this...maybe because, croatia is our balkan neighbour, or at least soon enough will be our neighbour :) what history taught us, is that Bosnia and Croatia are like scenarious of what will happen in Kosovo..they divided Bosnia, but could not divide Croatia, so , Croatia was successful and we need to follow that example...

May i remind you that Yugoslav kingdom and their secret service rounded up thousands of croatian and slovenian intelectuals during the perioud between the two world wars, well, few of these intelectuals had done serious research on Albanology, on of them was the founder of Albanology at first place...perhaps, if serbs were not that greedy, croatian revenge in ww2 would not get out of control...also many Albanians fought on croatian side during the yugoslav wars, and they perforemd rather good...

I have to think that the Americans and any other foreign entities knew better than to encourage Croats to commit ethnic cleansing. They might very well have predicted what would happen, but that's another story.
(Nenad, 15 April 2011 22:01)
--
Come on Nenad, these US companies were a front to train Croatian soldiers, provide weapons and intelligence, provide air cover for the whole operation that resulted in the mass ethnic cleansing of Serbians from those lands, where they had lived for hundreds of years. Ethnic cleansing of Serbians was politically accepted back then but not cleansing committed by Serbians. Why else haven't they created the conditions for Serbians to return back to Croatia and Kosovo?

''So according to your logic, it was OK for Serbians to commit crimes against ethnic Albanians in the 90s because the territory at that time was considered sovereign to Serbia by the whole world.
(Zoran, 15 April 2011 22:42) ''

By Jugoslav constitution itself, Kosovo was autonomus territory, hence not exclusively serbian, by sending Jugoslav tanks to take over ,Serbia violated international law, Yugoslavia in principle reckognised the minorities and self-governing of Albanians in Kosovo up to a certain extent, even in technical terms, Kosovo was not Serbia during Yugoslavian period, or at least since 1974...i mention the german-polish example because german people faced the consequences of the athrocities the nazis did, and Nurenberg did not go around arresting polish partizans...perhaps if croats, bosnian muslims and albanians burned belgrade to ground, Serbia would get over the past, but we didn't...so there will be no stabilitiy until the day belgrade and serbia are punished accordingly, . Any counry , be it Germany or Serbia, can not just start the mascarade and get away with it...the way i see it, Serbia won the Yugoslavian wars, western circles still support Serbia, probably because they don't see Bosnia and Kosovo from a muslim perspective to be a good idea, they have RS and northen of mitrovica...yet serbs are furious, let them be...Let their tanks pass the Kosovo border, and the march will end in Belgrade...

Janez

Other than the racial slurs, taunts and beatings, what exactly does Serbia benefit from Croatia?

Yes, you are so right in believing that Croatia is such a great ally and supoorter of Serbia; they have been Serbia's friends forever.

I have family that lives in downtown Belgrade, Zahumska to be more specific.

They have no problems with avoiding Croatia, makes no difference to them. By the way, what exactly do you do for a living?

Well what do you know. Justice actually prevailed here. For a minute I actually thought Gotovina was either going to walk or get a "time served" slap on the wrist. I'm glad to now know that one of Croatia's greatest "heroes" is just another washed up war criminal doomed to suffer both 24 years and eventualy irrelevancy in jail. What's actually funny, if I can stem from bganon's post about Croat responses is that Croatian TV apparently had reporters in Belgrade today interviewing Serbs for their reaction to the verdict - as if they were basically expecting some sort of hubristic triumphalism. Instead, they got a lot of indifferent responses, including one Krajina refugee who even said something to the effect that "it was 15 years ago, it doesn't matter to me anymore." So for all of Croatia's emotional pangs and apparnt obsession with everything Serbian (and we have to thank Lenard for being this site's model), it would seem even Gotovina's vicitms no longer think he's a relevant character.

"Their message is that the butcher and the victim is the same and both should be punished." (Miriel)

-- No, what this means is that the Hague cast Gotovina as a butcher, not a victim.

and Lenard, I'm so happy you took the time out of your crying and sobbing to rant and rave on B92. You're a testament to irrational, outdated, and completely clueless Croatian nationalism.

The first instance of ethnic cleansing of the wars was committed by croats against serbs in Gospic. The croats invented it. Fact.

Mirel!

It's because he evicted 700,000 Albanians from Croatia that he was sentenced to 24 years.

Sorry, i meant to write 1,000,000 Albanians.

It would be better for Serbia to stay far and clear of Croatia!
(Another Canadian Serb, 15 April 2011 12:36)

Says the Serb who lives in far away Canada who does not suffer the hardship of us here in Serbia. How can Serbia get away from Croatia? What do you propose to do, build a rocket to the moon? Crotia is our next door neighbour and an important trading partner. Besides many Serbs live in Croatia and many Croats live in Serbia. I have a number of Croat friends and neighbours here in Belgrade who are good people.

Seriously genius, what will you have Belgrade do, deport all Croats from Serbia?

Another case of an expat with foot in mouth disease.

Besides, I hope Gotovina rots in hell.

Gotovina protected his country which was occupated by serbs.
(Mirel from Albania, 15 April 2011 15:47)
--
I think you need to learn some history. How can Serbians, who have lived in that region for hundreds of years and fought against the Ottomans to protect that territory and western Europe be occupiers? Time for a reality check I think.

Justice is served! Veceras slavimo u Chikagu! We are celebrating tonight in Chicago!

Any Serb who considers this a victory is a fool. This was an arrangment made by the Croatian government and the Hague in order to remove a popular threat to said government, not any genuine attempt to "punish war crimes". Say what you will about Gotovina but he was a profesional and a worthy adversary. In fact he ended up becoming good friends with many of his fellow Hague inmates, mostly Serbs. He even signed a condolence letter for Milosevic. That is boss.
This is just more Western meddling and stirring of the pot. Today a Croat General, tomorrow a Serb.
I am sure you all remember the band Azra? That hit Balkane?
"Mi smo ljudi cigani sudbinom prokleti, uvijek netko oko nas dodje pa nam prijeti"...Think about it.

(Mirel from Albania, 15 April 2011 20:17)
--
Mirel from Albania, some people claim that isolation breeds ignorance. Somehow I believe there is some truth in that claim.

On another note, given that Serbia inherited the Yugoslav army resources and attacked its neighbors trying to get "all Serbs in one state"...
(KU, 16 April 2011 21:32)
--
There was no effort trying to get "all Serbs in one state" because we already were in one state. It was called Yugoslavia. Milosevic was attempting to preserve that state so Serbians could continue to live as they had for decades.

A miscarriage of justice... Everyone knows that Serbs were ordered to leave by Martic and had almost all left by the time Operation Storm commenced. Although the Hague acknowledged the fact that the Serbs evacuated under the orders of their leaders and of their free will, absurdly their own retreat was called ethnic cleansing. What of the 200,000 Croatians that the Serbs had ethnically cleansed from the Krajina at the beginning of the war?

It is an abomination that the individual directly responsible for the slaughter at Vukovar only got 10 years while Gotovina who denounced such barbarisms was sentenced to more than twice that.

The only people who cheer are people that do not value truth or justice.

Gotovina found guilty and sentanced to 24 years :D

«It would be better for Serbia to stay far and clear of Croatia! »

I do not agree. I think that justice should be made for all victims, no matter the ethnicity, by sending to jail all those who committed crimes and, and all governements should recognonize the facts and present apologies. Not only for the civil war but also to WW2 when Serbs suffered more than in the 90s. This has to be done if we want to live together, and we have to because we cannot all move to Australia or Canada.

So why do Albanians write about this ? They should rather care about Albania.

If some EU country who really rules with the EU wants Serbia to join EU it would happen without Croatian assent. Croatia will just accept that decision. I'm not at all surprised by usual Albanian posters here and their unfamiliarity with the history of ex Yugoslav states (I assume they don't even know much about their own history if they have it at all) and their support of war crimes committed over Serbs. We have already seen here that the same opinion they have when it comes about atrocities committed by K- Albanians over Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija.

Oh that's impressive, 81 witnesses from prosecution and 57 from defense. I cannot see how this is a political decision from the Hague. After these many witnesses and accounts and inevitable fight between prosecution and defense on the version of the facts I think the verdict is hardly political. But one has to see the Hague documents online and read with their own eyes to really know the details. Usually there are names of victims and ages. Very often they have the same last name, whole families. One must get to the details and to the flesh and bones to get the real feeling of what a process in the Hague is about. Here, name by name:

http://www.icty.org/action/cases/4

On another note, given that Serbia inherited the Yugoslav army resources and attacked its neighbors trying to get "all Serbs in one state", people should not be upset if their neighbors fought back and got help from the US and other countries (mind you, three years later, not immediately). It is such a simple universal truth that if you attack you will be attacked back. It takes a Milosevic not to see it, or ignore it.

Just my two cents - I do think we'll see an appeal but it's unlikely to be successful. I traveled through Krajina in 2002 and it was pretty obvious what was done to the areas in which Serbs had lived. Someone had to take the fall for that, especially since Tudjman never lived to see the indictment that likely would have been raised against him.

I don't share the view tha the US is working to sabotage justice here. Yes, they skirted the arms embargo and used retired military personnel to train the HV and HVO, but no US troops directly participated in Storm, so Croatian officers bear ultimate responsibility for the crimes committed. I also think that governments of the world have far more important things to worry about these days than prosecuting Americans for their covert involvement (the impact of which can be debated ad infinitum) in Balkan affairs 15-20 years back. Things like financial crises, Arab revolutions and Japanese earthquakes are much more pressing matters.

Hopefully this verdict will prove a step forward in the improvement of relations between Serbs and Croats. There is a very long way to go, and I must say that I find it deeply disturbing that Croats were packing churches praying for acquittals last night. Even more disturbing was the fact that they had the full backing of the Catholic Church, which no doubt out of desperation panders to this wing of its flock, hoping no one around the world will notice.

24 and 18-are you kidding me..these people are responsible for biggest exodus and ethnic cleansing in EU history.They should a got life in prison for just killing old and helpless.
But better something then nothing-now is high time for thaci to fallow the suit..it will happen sooner than later,but we prefer sooner..

The Croats talk about their victory they were being kicked from pillar to post until the Amercans saved their cowardly a****. Lets go again and sort this out once and for all.
(Srboljub, 15 April 2011 16:00)

Your comments sound pretty cowardly to me.
Lets hope you are a minority and we in the balkans can move forward, even with political courts like the Hague.

By Jugoslav constitution itself, Kosovo was autonomus territory, hence not exclusively serbian, by sending Jugoslav tanks to take over ,Serbia violated international law, Yugoslavia in principle reckognised the minorities and self-governing of Albanians in Kosovo up to a certain extent, even in technical terms, Kosovo was not Serbia during Yugoslavian period, or at least since 1974
(iliri, 15 April 2011 23:54)

There's spoofing and there is 'spoofing' but this takes the biscuit. How in the name of Jesus did Serbia violate international law by sending tanks to Kosmet?

I would like to highlight a couple of inaccuracies in your post if I may do so.

1) Serbia was a constituent republic of Yugoslavia so Serbia alone would not have a) authorisation to do so and b) there was no Serbian army in 1981, 1989 or 1999, it was the Yugoslav army.

2) Under the 1974 Yugoslav constitution, the SAP of Kosmet was a constituent part of the SR Serbia with autonomy under Yugoslav jurisdiction. The Yugoslav government when faced with an internal and existential threat to its security within its borders had full right under rule of law to uphold security as any other sovereign entity would do. Now tell me, how did the Yugoslav government in 1989 or 1999 violate international law Mr Genius when dealing with a violent secessionist outbreak of violence which threatened the very basis of the Yugoslav state itself. I mean come on, Britian sent troops to Northern Ireland (which had its own autonomy) in 1969 to deal with an outbreak of violence and that threatened the peace and security of its citizens after the police were unable or unwilling to uphold its duty in protecting its citizens. Did Britain violate international law? No it didn't, it acted just as Yugoslavia did 20 odd years later when faced with a similar outbreak of violence in Kosmet.

If anything both the UK and YU acted under the remit of their own respective laws and constitutions and need I say the Helsinki Agreement.

...and all of this nonsense about pushing the Serbs back to Belgrade, is quite frankly.......

nonsense.

Mirel from Albania

By your way of thinking there shouldn't be any Germany today because of their nazi past. This also means that the albanians, who supported the nazis, should have been expelled or killed from all areas of the balkans after WW2 ended. And there shouldn't be an America because of it's aggression and war crimes in Vietnam, Irak and Afghanistan.

Interesting how the albanians, croats and muslims just loved the Hague until now. Resent events just shows that the West is finally realizing who really counts in the Balkans. And it ain't Croatia and Kosovo.

Is that it? There are a lot of other croatians who should be in prison, particularly 'Admiral' Domazet who headed psychological operations over these operations"

In Feral Tribune, February 10, 2001:

Mysterious Flier "Spearheads" Storm

Darkness From Above:
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral156.html

"Two Chains
Thus, it can be concluded that even in the "propaganda" part of he war there was a double chain of "command". One, the official one, went via the Croatian TV and broadcast Tudman's message to the Serb civilians to stay in their homes, while the other, unofficial and secret chain of command "ordered" the Serb civilians via fliers to pull out of Krajina scaring them with the arrival of "the Ustashe army". Inasmuch as in the "ordinary" war the Croat leaders on several occasions exceeded the necessary self defense, it is obviously to be expected that they did the same in the conduct of "special" warfare.

Instead of causing panic and confusion in the Serb units by propaganda-psychological tricks, which is allowed by the Geneva Conventions under the category of "wartime trickery", panic and confusion were provoked among the civilians in order to prompt them to run en masse. And that mode of special warfare could clearly be named special ethnic cleansing."
***

Just in case anyone is confused about Tudjman's plans, here's the transcript as published also by Feral Tribune, July 4, 2003:

http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral214.html


I also suggest you google Gotovina's lawyer, Greg Kehoe. He has worked several times for the US government when it comes to war crimes. His main job with Gotovina was to stop him spilling the beans on the military help and other Croatia received from the US, Germany and other 'allies', but they are of course not responsible for war crimes even though under the statute of the UN those who have influence on parties and fail to use such influence to stop war crimes are also culpable. The UN even used it against Serbia over Srebrenica, but it of course doesn't apply to the above even though the US trained and provided a guiding hand through CIA mercenary front company MPRI, Military Professional Resources Incorporated and Germany shipped much of its East German arsenal through 'friendly' countries to Croatia.

A very important verdict for many reasons - the historical record, justice for the victims and even the credibility of the Hague.

And this occuring when the Croatian media and Gotovina's supporters had largely succeeded in persuading the rest of us that they would either be released or

I am now watching HRT 1, the Croatian first channel. They are discussing whether the national day to celebrate the 'freeing of Knin' should be cancelled, as the day has been clearly recorded by the Hague as a war crime.

One last point the Croatian government organised 'celebrations' in the centre of Zagreb and errected huge tv screens etc. How stupid can they get? Now people are going to be more disappointed and angry than ever and the Croatian government will take the blame.

It remains to be seen whether this verdict will be appealed, but by the fact that there was very little dissenting comments from any of the judges, it looks as if any appeal would not produce much difference in a verdict.

I'm not kidding; theres actually people letting off fireworks in Wellington because of this.

Are there any independent figures indicating what proportion of the Serb civilian population has returned to the Krajina?
And how does it look in Eastern Slavonia?

Zoran you did a good job in predicting the verdit, but I must admit I hadn't heard anybody say that Gotovina would be found guilty on the serious charges, or that the narrative (that is now entering history books as fact) that Tudjman organised the ethnic cleansing of Serbs on Brioni would be accepted by the judges so completely.
(bganon, 15 April 2011 18:13)
--
You go too far into details when it doesn't really matter. This is a political court and it will make political decisions. At this point in time it was the politically correct decision but had the judgement been made three years ago I suspect it would be a not guilty. Just like Seselj won't be released before the next Serbian elections and just like Haradinaj will be found guity. Do you know what political conditions are making it that way?

Nenad, you seem to think corporate America and the US government are detached? The reason they do things though companies is to make it less problematic for the government but they are still the ones pulling the strings. Why do you think there are so many "private" contractors in Iraq and elsewhere? Why do you think the first line of attack come as representitives of US companies and not the government? It is just their way of pushing though policy with a cover in place. It is explained very nicely here by someone who was doing it. Check -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKRKZqdgBXg

yet serbs are furious, let them be...Let their tanks pass the Kosovo border, and the march will end in Belgrade...
(iliri, 15 April 2011 23:54)
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We are not furious at all. We have been sitting at the negotiating table for a very long time, mainly alone but I'm glad we are finally joined by your guys and others. Negotiations are the only way my friend while truth and reconciliation will set us free.

Iliri I just have to ask you with the last comment you made are you taking sides with the Serb army or are you simply stating facts or what you perceive to be facts?

Does everybody know why all this happened ?
There was never real justice after WWII ?
After the death off Marchal Broz Tito the pot started boiling again.
So finally what happened had to happen. When eventually everybody will be judged you will be ok to go on with your lives and stand by each other in the future. Too bad you guys didn `t want this country called Yougoslavia. I hope you will be more happy in the EU.

Zoran,

I'm not sure what led you to think that I view the US government as "detached" from American corporations. I live in the US and know how it goes. My point was that in a court of law, I personally believe that it would be difficult for a prosecutor to prove that anyone other than Croats were guilty of war crimes against Serbs in Krajina. You could maybe try to bring a separate case against the Americans and others (Germans come to mind) for violation of the embargo, but I just don't see the outcome of these trials against Croat officers as having any material effect on such a case. You can sell a man a gun illegally, but what he does with it is his business. I have to think that the Americans and any other foreign entities knew better than to encourage Croats to commit ethnic cleansing. They might very well have predicted what would happen, but that's another story.

Zoran of course it matters! In case you haven't noticed it history is a war of opinions as much as it is the truth.
(bganon, 15 April 2011 23:07)
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I understand the significance of this judgement but it will only hold if the appeal is not overturned (and there will be an appeal). My comment was referring to the political nature of this court so the facts are less relevant than the political atmosphere, which has changed (for better or worse).

Now lets wait for the appeal, which I hope fails but I have my doubts. This is a political game and Croatia will now fight much harder as it has much to lose.

yet serbs are furious, let them be...Let their tanks pass the Kosovo border, and the march will end in Belgrade...
(iliri, 15 April 2011 23:54)

Just wait until your Western saviors leave,then you will "be marched" back to Anadolia where you come from,if you make it...
Remember March 1999,back then you Albanians weren`t tough talking but crying for help and fleeing Serbias armed forces...
We saw your "fighting qualities" first hand,no need to brag about...

Apologies for that broken sentence what I meant to say is that many of us had been persuaded by the Gotovina lobby to expect that Gotovina would be set free with a possible guilty sentence on lesser charges. I believed it as well.

Zoran you did a good job in predicting the verdit, but I must admit I hadn't heard anybody say that Gotovina would be found guilty on the serious charges, or that the narrative (that is now entering history books as fact) that Tudjman organised the ethnic cleansing of Serbs on Brioni would be accepted by the judges so completely. So you are one of a kind! Either that or you are trying to downplay the verdict because it doesn't fit into your own view of the Hague.

In fact as I watched the verdicts being pronounced there was an elephant in the room, or perhaps a ghost lingering. It was exactly this:
Had Tujdman been alive and was being tried now there can be no doubt that he would have been found guilty on serious charges of war crimes and a joint criminal enterprise.

If one reads the judgement there can be no debate about this.

Gotovina's lawyer has already announced that he'll appeal the verdict... Now, independent of whether they acquit him in appeals (on the basis of the evidence provided, i think an acquittal is fairly unlikely; but you never know indeed), the one thing that is for sure not going to be reversed on appeal is the posthumous verdict on Tudjman and, hence, on the Croatian state. And this is what really matters for the future, both symbolicaly and legally speaking.

The Albanian rebels attacked serb policemen not earlier than 1997...but Serbia had revoked the autonomy in 1989... in principle, Serbia had been braking international laws from 1989 to 1999...or maybe Serbia had a time machine which could predict the future and knew that Albanians would uprise in 1998...so they revoked the autonomy 9 years earlier...
(iliri, 16 April 2011 15:46)

name the law that makes revoking autonomy illegal

Zoran of course it matters! In case you haven't noticed it history is a war of opinions as much as it is the truth.

In other words verdicts like this impact on the 'official' version of history. From the Serbian perspective it makes for a more even narrative about what happened in the past. The Croatian nationalist perspective has suffered a defeat today. I don't mean all of Croatia, it is time that a clear division exists between ordinary Croats and nationalists who have their own agenda and narrative they have been trying to impose for god knows how long.

In case you are comparing this to Kosovo ind was not illegal news, as I suspect you are - the only thing that is the same here is that you witnessed both and nothing appeared to change. But this is completely different, perhaps you would have to be in Croatia to appreciate it fully. I have friends both Croatian Serbs and Croats from opposite sides of the fence who are convinced this means a serious break with what has gone before in one way or another.

Marcus you are ignoring the political leadership in Croatia in this instance. Nobody forced Tudjman to adopt a policy of ethnic cleansing. For sure the US armed them, trained them and gave the green light. If you are trying to argue that people should not be punished for war crimes because of US imperialism I strongly disagree. My only issue is that US crimes should be equally tried in a court in front of unbiased judges.

And Marcus please explain how exactly this verdict benefits the Croatian government. Are you trying to make me laugh or what? This verdict does not remove a threat to the Croatian government, it very much increases the threat to the Croatian government.

And as for Gotovina being a good guy because he was friends with Milosevic. Well Legija was good friends with many Croatians from the underworld, that makes him a decent sort as well? Or more precisely these 'good guys' can go round killing, stealing and plundering innocent people, telling nationalist stories and then behind bars are friends with each other.

That is something we are suppose to admire??? I prefer nationalists to false patriots who are in fact common criminals.

Oh come on Lenard!

You make it sound like a bad thing.

Look at the bright side of it!