Serbian War Crimes Prosecution has decided to give up on the criminal prosecution of Tihomir Purda, Danko Maslov and Petar Janjić due to a lack of evidence.
Yugoslavia, I assume that you hold in high regard Nikola Kalabic and his assistance in apprehending Mihailovic who was later executed for treason and war crimes.
(Joze, 4 March 2011 23:28)
The historical ramifications between Croatia and Serbia is long and much of it can be blamed on the failed policies of the Yugoslav Royal government as well as Tito's Communist ruled government.
The assassaniation of the Croatian MP Stephan Radic by a Montenegrin parliament official because of a "joke" was the spark. He got a light sentence and was essentialy let out the back door. This was the seed of the Ustasha movement and even good Croatian leaders like Vlado Macek could not prevent the Ustasha from seizing power with the Nazi's.
The current leader Josipovic is one of those good Croat leaders but is being pressured by a strong facscist element that still exists in Croatia, a generation that has made it's way back from the Rat lines of the Vatican and Argentina.
To equate the horrific crimes of the Ustasha to the Chetniks is the standard response. The Chetniks crimes pale in comparision to what the Ustasha did to innocent civlians.
Both the Chetnik and Partisan movements grew becasue of the attrocities committed by Pavelic and his henchman.
"demonstration of sheer sadism"Isralei President Shimo Perez visit 25/07/10 to Jasenovac.
Jose
quote "zerajovic (whom Kocovic bases his caculations) applies growth rate for serbs in Bosina at 1.1% (as for nations together), while actual growth rate was 2.4%(1921-1931)" in an attempt to reduce the amount of serb vistims Kocovic has applied inaccurate and incorrect statiscal information regarding the serb poulation and birth rates.The motivations of applying such inaccurate figures is plain for all to see.
please see Jasenovac memoral Jasenovac Croatia for lists and nummber of victims also the Yad Vashem site, the jasenovac Instiute which lists most victims by name and surname also you can see the census published by the Yugoslavian Federal Bureao in 1964 all these are far more illuminating than a demoghrohers flawd mathametcs.We do agree one particular aspect on this most heinous crime that was Jasenovac that any trial or investigation on a world wide stage is sorely needed and welcomed
Mia, Mr. Kocovic is a demographer. His work, much like Vladimir Zerjavic's, is based on a number of factors: census figures, birthrates, etc. Neither pulled their numbers out of a hat. His opinion is based on this.
I actually welcome Serbia's case against Croatia for genocide in WW II in the hope that Serb's will be forced to accept the inconvenient truths of their involvement with the Axis powers instead of rehabilitating people such as Mihailovic. Considering the *evidence* that they have presented so far in the cases against Purda, Ganic and now Divjak, this should be interesting.
The destabilisation of Yugoslavia that then brought the war started with the Serbian Yogurt Revolution.
With that revolution Serbs destroyed the constitutional order of Yugoslavia by overthrowing with violence the governments and parliaments of Kosova and Vojvodina firstly and then Montenegro. Serbs managed to involve in this operation JNA that in addition to the relatively balanced constitution was the guarantor of the national cohesion. The 2 pillars of Yugoslavia vanished.
Other nations of Yugoslavia felt threatened that may get the same faith- thus started to take distance for the new Yugoslavia- the product of the Yogurt Revolution.
The Serbian calculations were very simple:
We have the backing of the Army;
We have the Diplomatic network;
We have the Central Bank and the hard currencies;
We have the backing of Russia.
Others in their best case have police and everything to start from the scratch. Kosova didn't have even the police.
So the war started on this huge imbalance of power and Serbia thought it will be very easy for her to impose her political will and vision of future Yugoslavia.
Other nations of Yugoslavia resisted more than what Blgd regime believed they could.
Now these international arrest warrants are just a consequence and a proof that nothing has changed in Serbia.
The case of Pruda is same as:
Ganic - in Britain;
Ceku - in Bulgaria;
Oric - in Hague
Against all three of them Serbia brought in front of all these 3 independent courts her arguments of the alleged crimes that these gentlemen’s have committed:
all these 3 independent courts found Serbian arguments being an absolute rubbish and politically/propaganda based accusation.
Now instead of speaking about Jasenovac (that I don’t want to minimize) can we see the present and try to see the future??
Now do you still think that today we have a European Serbia?? By abusing the Interpol for her political agenda (and the Prudas case is a confirmation of this abuse even by Serbian officials themselves issuing and then withdrawing it when you need to face on more independent court) do you think that there is a change in culture in the political elite of Blgd??
I don’t want to demonise Serbs but we cannot do justice by closing eyes- you political elite and conceptualisation of your relation with your neighbours is in the softest possible words disputable by the same your neighbours- not one or two but all of them. Pruda’s case is just the most recent proof.
did anybody reflect on this:
"44 witnesses were questioned, 13 in Serbia and 31 in Croatia".
Not one or two, but 44 witnesses. Witness means they were probably there, all or some of them. After talking with 44 people it was decided to drop the case. instead of asking to put a man to prison without evidence, people should ask to the prosecutors to do their job better, including catching the right people and building better cases.
thank you for you suggestion, on examining the suggested author opinion of the Jasenovac it was clear that the authours opinion was just that an opinion. Furthermore, his opinion was devoid of any factual or historical base instead it appears that the authors cynical manipulation of unsubstated data left the authour looking well frankly biased and to be blunt wrong. I recommend you educate yourself on the historical and census records of the time and include your researh the historcal documentation related to the extermination of serbs in Jasenvoc Wikipideia, arhcival footage and history books including the jewish holocaust society which has conducted exhaustive researh on the extermination of serbs in Jasenovac will provide the most accurate figures starting with jasenovac were the serb victims are approx 700,000. i will add at this time you will find a most comprehensive list of victims on the Jasenovac Insitute site or you could perhaps visit the information centre in Jasenovac itself. I leave that up to you just there are numerous history etc thtat you may find more helpful.
Nenad, I've posted the links before and they are not that hard to find if you google Marko Prešeren.
I need not explain why such a report was so briefly covered if at all when it came out. Only the 'official truth' counts when it comes to the Balkans, though ICTY transcripts also expose a lot that has been deliberately ignored or forgotten.
Here are the links again:
In English (politically correct) reported here on B92 back in 2009:
Lenard you sound like you could do with the services of Radovan Karadzic.
Oh, and I think you have much more in common with the man than I do. You could both talk about historical injustices and ethnic politics.
Meanwhile the world leaves you behind. This is the 21st century in case you have not noticed.
But yes you are right. Its wrong to sweep historical injustices under the carpet isn't it? I'm sure that in 1990 you argued with fellow Croats that they should understand Serbs because they committed genocide against Serbs in the past. Oh, you mean to say you did not???
Aha, I see. 'Sure lets pretend nothing happened'. Those delusional Serbs in Krajina who had entire generations of families wiped out in World War 2 by Croats. They should have been sent to a shrink. Oh wait a minute, they were ethnically cleansed... hmmm.
Lenard you are full of hypocrisy that is licermer in case you don't understand.
It's interesting to note that these chetniks are being rehabilitated in Serbia today even though their work with the Nazis and Fascists is well documented.
It's sad that today, in Serbia, Chetniks, are able to get a pension, something that was not possible during Yugoslavia.
Yugoslavia, I assume that you hold in high regard Nikola Kalabic and his assistance in apprehending Mihailovic who was later executed for treason and war crimes.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 18:45)
Just keep on watching and you’ll see we are right. Croatia is finished as it became technically broke late last year and all of the unrest you see on TV now comes as a result of drastic budget cuts by the Croatian Government.
I wrote about this in 2009; that the EU’s projected income would force many countries benefiting from EU aid to tighten their belts. Then in 2010 it because obvious that the situation was much worse than ever before and I can tell you that this belt tightening will continue with Croatia having to reduce its expenditure even further in 2011 until 2015 and that’s if the world recovers from the current recession.
There was nothing secret about all this information, but you had to know where to look for it and know what you are looking at.
Here is my challenge to you. Tell me how is Croatia going to survive if it does not cooperate with Belgrade? I asked the same question from the Albanians in kosovo and they talk about freedom and democracy, but that is a tad chewy on the dinner plate and you walk away hungry.
I am happy to be proven wrong.
RE; Let us look at evil straight in the eye-Ante Pavelic, The Real Butcher of the Ballkans and the Francisan order. "Jugoslavia" who said they are Christians ,Stalin was studying to be a Orthodox priest we all know how that turned out. As for Ante Pavelić he is in hell for all of eternity and then some more and many of his religious fanatic followers. No amount of prayers by the Pope will get him out. Even Roman Catholics have a belief of paying for their sins in purgatory for a while when they die. Purgatory is just a delusional name for hell its a way for Satan to keep them quiet in hell. What have you against Bogoljub Kočović he calls him self a Jugoslav just like you and is a Serb to boot. I guess he dose not fit your version of history or truth. Or any other Serb that strays from the official Serb orthodoxies version is a traitor.
Slovenes committed war crimes against Serbs? rotflmao!! What new BS is that! I've only met Serbs that proudly revise their own history every year so that they can claim to be the victims of increasingly crazy circumstances
(Trevor, 4 March 2011 08:01)
RE: Crimes against the JNA
The so called Slovenian revolutionary army committed crimes against the JNA recruits who were ordered to secure the Jugoslav borders murdering over 70 soldiers who were ordered not to fire back at the Slovenes. The irony is that many of those JNA soldiers that were killed were Slovenian including some high ranking officers.
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie -2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 18:45)
RE; Let us look at evil straight in the eye-Ante Pavelic, The Real Butcher of the Ballkans and the Francisan order.
Jason its true that Croatia has a better case than Bosnia.
However, its a huge tin of worms because the judges would effectively have to rule on the legality of Croatian independence. Was the decleration legal? What date would they decide that JNA troops on Croatian territory became 'foreign' forces? Would it be from when the EU recognised Croatia as a state, or when Croatia officially declared independence? What about damage before then?
Not impossible questions to answer, but a case that many would prefer to settle out of court, not least the judges.
Thats before even considering any counter claims that Serbs within Croatia could make. I mean calculate the cost of damage in Croatia and expect Serbia to pay for damage to Serbian property in Krajina, Slavonia and so on, damage made by Croatian forces? I think Croatian Serbs would have something to say about that.
Due to the warming of relations between the Serbian and Croatian government and this complexity I wouldn't be suprised if an out of court settlement is made.
Regarding the number of deaths in WW II I suggest you look at Bogoljub Kocovic's research. If we look at just Croatia, based on census figures from '48, he concluded that 125 000 Serbs and 124 000 Croatians died in Croatia during the war. Unfortunately, this number has been manipulated by the Serbian Orthodox Church and Greater Serbian proponents to justify the means to the ends.
A quote from Mr Kocovic....
''Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would be the myths created over four decades about the number of victims, myths by now deeply implanted in the soul of the people of all religions, political beliefs and nationality; myths which, by repetition became a 'reality'. There will be many who will reject my study because it does not conform to their beliefs...Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred of the Croats.''
(Joze, 4 March 2011 17:49)
RE;Hate Speech
B-92 should be held accountable for allowing this hate speech to even be posted.
The lowest estimates of the number of Serbs, Croats and other Yugoslavs people is 750,000 from the Vad Yashem Jewish Holocaust institute.
That being said, previous generations have lived through it and passed it along to future generations and it shall never be forgotten. This is the same for the Jewish holocaust perportrated by the Nazi's, the Greek and Armenian holocaust perpotrated by the Ottoman empire, the Cambodian holocuast perportrated by Pol Pot and many more.
You can quote Kocovic or any other Croatian fascist , nationalist and Nazi's all you like but you cannot erase the truth.
Oh Jason, be careful! We all know that Republika Srpska Krajina was a completely separate political entity with its own military and police. Milan Babic, Milan Martic and Goran Hadzic called all the shots -- Belgrade had no involvement in the war there. Sightings of Stanisic, Frenki, Arkan and Seselj on Croatian soil are purely fabricated.
Boy you Serbs live a fantasy land of your self delusional making. Their is no moving forward only self serving expediency when the bite of reality strikes and is striking it will be much to late. You cant have justice without restitution you cant keep your criminally ill gotten "gains" from the ones you murdered and the victimized living and stoled from it is Gods law you break it at your own peril. Because one Serb says sorry Boris Tadić for expediency and the 99% say we did not do anything wrong everything is honky dory only in a Serbs narrow self serving minds. They have a terminal Serbdom religious sin disease of the brain that will catch up and do them in. Sure lets all pretend nothing happened again that is what the Balkans are good at repeating their mistakes. Im good your good what are the delusional victims complaining about tell them to get real bnagon and sj. Maybe we can get them a psychiatrist and convince the millions of victims its probably all in their heads where is that famous psychiatrist/guru Radovan Karadžić http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/world/europe/23karadzic.html?_r=1. 2Th 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie -2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Regarding the number of deaths in WW II I suggest you look at Bogoljub Kocovic's research. If we look at just Croatia, based on census figures from '48, he concluded that 125 000 Serbs and 124 000 Croatians died in Croatia during the war. Unfortunately, this number has been manipulated by the Serbian Orthodox Church and Greater Serbian proponents to justify the means to the ends.
A quote from Mr Kocovic....
''Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would be the myths created over four decades about the number of victims, myths by now deeply implanted in the soul of the people of all religions, political beliefs and nationality; myths which, by repetition became a 'reality'. There will be many who will reject my study because it does not conform to their beliefs...Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred of the Croats.''
Bosnia lost its case against suing Serbia because, technically, "Serbia proper" wasn't the state that was directly tied to the Srebrenica killings. It was the "Bosnian Serbs". Sure, "Serbia proper" endorsed the "Bosnian Serbs", but there is no direct link to the government or army of the country itself. So, Bosnia would have to sue its own citizens, but the Serb variety (which gets very messy and I'm not sure that can work, especially since it goes against the Bosnian muslims wanting to promote a "one Bosnia").
In Croatia's case, however, there were Serbian troops and tanks from Belgrade itself going into Vukovar and ethnically cleansing all non-Serbs. These ARE directly linked to Serbia itself, and the lawsuits actually do hold water.
Lenard quite the opposite. This move by Serbia can only help reconciliation and decrease pressure for court action of the kind you suggest, on both sides.
Those who are filled with hate like yourself must be crying about Serbia's decision. It would be much better for you if Serbia decided to press ahead with prosecution. Too bad! The region will move forward and you will be left behind.
Ya sure Croatia is taking Serbia to court for all the destructive evil it perpetuated. Serbia will be paying Croatia war compensation to the tune of 10s of billions.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 09:38)
Croatia lodged a case with the International Court against Serbia about this time last year, but it’s more symbolic than anything else because Bosnia did the same thing and lost in 2009, I think – not too sure of the year.
Once Croatia decided to continue with the case Serbia lodged a counter claim which covered WW2. But there are rumors that this will be dispensed with as part of getting on together.
Lets watch closely to see what Croatia does for Serbia in the coming days and weeks.
(bganon, 3 March 2011 20:46) Ya sure Croatia is taking Serbia to court for all the destructive evil it perpetuated. Serbia will be paying Croatia war compensation to the tune of 10s of billions.
Slovenes committed war crimes against Serbs? rotflmao!! What new BS is that! I've only met Serbs that proudly revise their own history every year so that they can claim to be the victims of increasingly crazy circumstances
Before answering your post I made several overseas enquiries to find out for myself why Belgrade has decided to “drop the case against Purda”.
Firstly, Belgrade has evidence of Purda’s activities and there is more than enough to lock him up for a long time, but there are more pressing matters to consider such as the current Croatian Government and its ability to stand considering it’s under tremendous pressure from all fronts. You see your government is entrusted in fulfilling EU requirements and the first is reconsolidation with the Serbs – notice Josipovic and Dodik????, second is compensation to Serbs refugees (the agreement reached is both detailed and comprehensive).
Secondly, there are moves for Croatia to drop the compensation case against Serbia at the International Court as part of that settlement. So you see it’s not a matter of no evidence, but priority – governments are not very nice people. In saying this, the list of 100 war criminals with Zagreb is still active and will be dealt with at a later stage. You will note that the press release for Purda did not say “the case against Purda is CLOSED” it just said it was dropped - but for the moment.
This decision to no longer pursue the charges against Purda by Serbia comes to me as no suprise.In fact this decision further illustrates the back door politics and manipulation that has defined the entire conflict and clearly still does, the goal now is not to carve a croatian terrority out of serbian terrority or carve a new albanain terrority out serbia but membership to the EU and promise of something better only to find it is the same just called something else. Regardless of dropping of charges or not pursuing them at all against war criminals of coatia or KLA, the fact still remains there were extermination camps operated by croatians such as Camp Lora in Croatia were serbs were murdered existed(google IT)there was ethnic cleanising of serbs by Croats see Krajina and Pocket Medak happened. whether they pursue the croats does not matter any more simply because they wont it does fit the propagandist story of the war. furthermore not pursuing these criminals such as Purda reveals the extent the authorites desire to ensure the propagandist version of the war remain untarnished. but that will never change the fact these events happened krajina pocket medak and many more happened to serbs and serbia. No amount of media manipulation or false commentary can change that just like you cannot change what happened to serbs in JASENOVAC it will always be there.The cnn version of the war is just not good enough for the truth god who believes western media anymore.Of course now will come the inevitable the serbs did this and that. ok show me i can show you pocket medak and more.but remains clear a war started by croats and slovenia achieved it goal creating countrys that never existed in history exist now. so tell me how that benefited the serbs
Has anybody asked themselves why was the arrest of Purda controversial?
1. The state which he is suing as a type of class action civil suit for the treatment of wartime prisoners in an undeclared war is the same state prosecuting him for war crimes.
2. Re 1, the existence and treatment of those prisoners are an essential element in establishing Belgrades direct involvement in the conflict in Croatia and are an important plank in the genocide case against Serbia.
3. The basis of of Purda's prosecution is a confession he gave while interned in a Serb POW camp in a war Serbia was officially not involved in.
The fact of the lack of evidence shows that there wasn't enough to substantiate a prosecution in the first place.
Rather than being a demonstration of the rule of law, it is a second example (after the criticism by Workman J of the British Magistrates court) of a political prosecution and shows that the Serbia judicial arm in not independent of politics.
Cheers to the Serbian justice system for making the right decision! A Serb judge himself said he has no intention of pursuing accusations against people who "admitted to war crimes" while in concentration camps. In addition, cooperation between various officials shows what kind of future might be possible. Watering down your legitimacy on cases like this doesn't help when the real crimes of the many war profiteers and gangsters all across the Balkans come into play.
Edit correction: "authoritative history of the war in Slovenia" - NOT Croatia. Whatever, both the Slovenes and Croats started hostilities, the latter only coming to light officially with the arrest of that fat neo-ustasa, Tomislav Mercep.
(Aleks, 3 March 2011 20:24)
No, the war started in Kosova and ended there with total disintagration of artificial Yugo. Serbs started and I am glad they did, but feel very bad for all the bloodshed.
Edit correction: "authoritative history of the war in Slovenia" - NOT Croatia. Whatever, both the Slovenes and Croats started hostilities, the latter only coming to light officially with the arrest of that fat neo-ustasa, Tomislav Mercep.
Lenard what a suprise you come here to constantly lecture about Serbian war criminals and not a word passes your lips about the alleged crimes of Purda and company.
Instead of criticising Serbia all the time, how about wondering about the case in hand. That is, are a bunch of murderers about to be let free on the streets of Croatia without any justice? I say that because that is the normal reaction of a human being.
On the topic I don't know the truth of it, but it looks suspicious. People are looking quite far west, but I wouldn't be suprised at all if this 'favour' wasn't a local deal between Serbia and Croatia with 'input' from the EU. Its a fact that the war veterans and their assorted war criminal supporters of Gotovina, various nationalists and hooligans took to the streets of Zagreb some days ago. The Croatian government may just about be able to cope with the current protests, but when the 'veterans' come out it has a higher political, financial (policing if nothing else) and economic cost.
Lets watch closely to see what Croatia does for Serbia in the coming days and weeks.
re: Aleks & me not knowing what a concentration camp is....
Aleks, prisoners from Croatia, Bosnia and probably Kosovo were interned in these camps. They went through hell and no one has been prosecuted nor is there talk of this in Serbia, why? Is it because the victims were not Serbs?
Who are you to say what a concentration camp is when you negate the existance of such camps in Serbia?
I was just recently reading about the Slovene conflict on Wikipedia and there is mention of an alleged war crime against a bunch of JNA soldiers who had tried to surrender, but the article claims that all these soldiers were subsequently found to be alive.
Can you save us all a bit of trouble and provide a link to definitive proof of what you say?
I know Wikipedia has some questionable material so I certainly wouldn't declare its version "fact". I just don't know where else I might find veritable information.
I will say that I always found that "war" (you seem to object to that word) a bit of a mystery.
It's pretty well documented that Milosevic had already given Kucan the OK to leave Yugoslavia.
We then saw a limited invasion to secure borders, which the article on Wikipedia points out were a valuable revenue source.
The JNA had some difficulty with its small-scale invasion and so its general staff started squawking for a full-scale attack. Supposedly, Milosevic and Jovic weren't interested. But hey, what about the breakup of Yugoslavia? Weren't they for keeping the country together? Why stop after a half-hearted 10-day campaign with fewer than a couple hundred casualties?
Meanwhile, there were rumors of reinforcements on the move, supposedly intended for Slovenia but suddenly haulted and deployed in Croatia instead.
Was the whole Slovenia operation just a big smoke screen?
Is this Belgrade's sop to Brussels? It is pathetic in the extreme. But then again, there are only official victims. Slovenia has not prosecuted a single slovene for war crimes it carried out, only fake crimes of ex-JNA soldiers. Slovene researcher Marko Preseren was tasked by the slovene parliament to write and research an authoratitve history of the 'war' in Croatia and his results were that there was no 'war', slovene's committed war crimes and were not prosecuted etc. Google it ladies and weep.
Re: Joze. You clearly don't know what a concentration camp is (apart from the fantasy construction in you own mind). Get on your knees and pray for forgivness for this sin.
Serbia drops case against Purda my friend sj what were you saying o yes. But people like you are too thick to understand that if Belgrade does not throw a bone or two to Zagreb it’s finished – ask yourself why is Purda being extradited to Belgrade???…?? This would not have happened 10 years ago ha, ha, ha. Oh there are 100 more to be handed over to Belgrade.
Cheers
(sj, 1 March 2011 22:33) I have said all along Serbia again will have egg on its face. How many times has Serbia issued arrest warrants through Interpol. They are tired of Serbias amateur fishing expeditions now they just role their eyes at Serbia trying to blame the victims of Serbias state terrorism of sponsored criminal war aggression on its neighbours. Serbia should look into all the different Serbian paramilitary groups that they sent in to the country of Bosnia ,Croatia and Kosovo. You will have decades of work prosecuting the murdering ,raping ,destroying ,pillaging ethnic cleansing low liefs bandits that were sent by the government of Serbia. That are accused of perpetuating the most heinous crimes on civilians of other countrys not seen since WW2 you will have much success their. I know Serbs like to live in a delusional world of their own self made righteous in a very narrow fanatical space of Serbdom. Their brand of hypocrisy the Serbian made religious orthodoxy. That has nothing to do with Gods word the bible. Cheers sj and Serbs
Now they should identify who were those people who gathered Purda's confession and bring to light the existance of these concentration camps. If we know about Manjaca, Omarska, etc then we should also know about these in order to move forward.
Shame oh this government.
If it didn't have enough evidence, do you really think they would have went after him? Power to the people! Serbia rise above this act!
Now they should identify who were those people who gathered Purda's confession and bring to light the existance of these concentration camps. If we know about Manjaca, Omarska, etc then we should also know about these in order to move forward.
Serbia drops case against Purda my friend sj what were you saying o yes. But people like you are too thick to understand that if Belgrade does not throw a bone or two to Zagreb it’s finished – ask yourself why is Purda being extradited to Belgrade???…?? This would not have happened 10 years ago ha, ha, ha. Oh there are 100 more to be handed over to Belgrade.
Cheers
(sj, 1 March 2011 22:33) I have said all along Serbia again will have egg on its face. How many times has Serbia issued arrest warrants through Interpol. They are tired of Serbias amateur fishing expeditions now they just role their eyes at Serbia trying to blame the victims of Serbias state terrorism of sponsored criminal war aggression on its neighbours. Serbia should look into all the different Serbian paramilitary groups that they sent in to the country of Bosnia ,Croatia and Kosovo. You will have decades of work prosecuting the murdering ,raping ,destroying ,pillaging ethnic cleansing low liefs bandits that were sent by the government of Serbia. That are accused of perpetuating the most heinous crimes on civilians of other countrys not seen since WW2 you will have much success their. I know Serbs like to live in a delusional world of their own self made righteous in a very narrow fanatical space of Serbdom. Their brand of hypocrisy the Serbian made religious orthodoxy. That has nothing to do with Gods word the bible. Cheers sj and Serbs
Shame oh this government.
If it didn't have enough evidence, do you really think they would have went after him? Power to the people! Serbia rise above this act!
Is this Belgrade's sop to Brussels? It is pathetic in the extreme. But then again, there are only official victims. Slovenia has not prosecuted a single slovene for war crimes it carried out, only fake crimes of ex-JNA soldiers. Slovene researcher Marko Preseren was tasked by the slovene parliament to write and research an authoratitve history of the 'war' in Croatia and his results were that there was no 'war', slovene's committed war crimes and were not prosecuted etc. Google it ladies and weep.
Re: Joze. You clearly don't know what a concentration camp is (apart from the fantasy construction in you own mind). Get on your knees and pray for forgivness for this sin.
re: Aleks & me not knowing what a concentration camp is....
Aleks, prisoners from Croatia, Bosnia and probably Kosovo were interned in these camps. They went through hell and no one has been prosecuted nor is there talk of this in Serbia, why? Is it because the victims were not Serbs?
Who are you to say what a concentration camp is when you negate the existance of such camps in Serbia?
Edit correction: "authoritative history of the war in Slovenia" - NOT Croatia. Whatever, both the Slovenes and Croats started hostilities, the latter only coming to light officially with the arrest of that fat neo-ustasa, Tomislav Mercep.
(Aleks, 3 March 2011 20:24)
No, the war started in Kosova and ended there with total disintagration of artificial Yugo. Serbs started and I am glad they did, but feel very bad for all the bloodshed.
Edit correction: "authoritative history of the war in Slovenia" - NOT Croatia. Whatever, both the Slovenes and Croats started hostilities, the latter only coming to light officially with the arrest of that fat neo-ustasa, Tomislav Mercep.
I was just recently reading about the Slovene conflict on Wikipedia and there is mention of an alleged war crime against a bunch of JNA soldiers who had tried to surrender, but the article claims that all these soldiers were subsequently found to be alive.
Can you save us all a bit of trouble and provide a link to definitive proof of what you say?
I know Wikipedia has some questionable material so I certainly wouldn't declare its version "fact". I just don't know where else I might find veritable information.
I will say that I always found that "war" (you seem to object to that word) a bit of a mystery.
It's pretty well documented that Milosevic had already given Kucan the OK to leave Yugoslavia.
We then saw a limited invasion to secure borders, which the article on Wikipedia points out were a valuable revenue source.
The JNA had some difficulty with its small-scale invasion and so its general staff started squawking for a full-scale attack. Supposedly, Milosevic and Jovic weren't interested. But hey, what about the breakup of Yugoslavia? Weren't they for keeping the country together? Why stop after a half-hearted 10-day campaign with fewer than a couple hundred casualties?
Meanwhile, there were rumors of reinforcements on the move, supposedly intended for Slovenia but suddenly haulted and deployed in Croatia instead.
Was the whole Slovenia operation just a big smoke screen?
Has anybody asked themselves why was the arrest of Purda controversial?
1. The state which he is suing as a type of class action civil suit for the treatment of wartime prisoners in an undeclared war is the same state prosecuting him for war crimes.
2. Re 1, the existence and treatment of those prisoners are an essential element in establishing Belgrades direct involvement in the conflict in Croatia and are an important plank in the genocide case against Serbia.
3. The basis of of Purda's prosecution is a confession he gave while interned in a Serb POW camp in a war Serbia was officially not involved in.
The fact of the lack of evidence shows that there wasn't enough to substantiate a prosecution in the first place.
Rather than being a demonstration of the rule of law, it is a second example (after the criticism by Workman J of the British Magistrates court) of a political prosecution and shows that the Serbia judicial arm in not independent of politics.
Lenard what a suprise you come here to constantly lecture about Serbian war criminals and not a word passes your lips about the alleged crimes of Purda and company.
Instead of criticising Serbia all the time, how about wondering about the case in hand. That is, are a bunch of murderers about to be let free on the streets of Croatia without any justice? I say that because that is the normal reaction of a human being.
On the topic I don't know the truth of it, but it looks suspicious. People are looking quite far west, but I wouldn't be suprised at all if this 'favour' wasn't a local deal between Serbia and Croatia with 'input' from the EU. Its a fact that the war veterans and their assorted war criminal supporters of Gotovina, various nationalists and hooligans took to the streets of Zagreb some days ago. The Croatian government may just about be able to cope with the current protests, but when the 'veterans' come out it has a higher political, financial (policing if nothing else) and economic cost.
Lets watch closely to see what Croatia does for Serbia in the coming days and weeks.
Cheers to the Serbian justice system for making the right decision! A Serb judge himself said he has no intention of pursuing accusations against people who "admitted to war crimes" while in concentration camps. In addition, cooperation between various officials shows what kind of future might be possible. Watering down your legitimacy on cases like this doesn't help when the real crimes of the many war profiteers and gangsters all across the Balkans come into play.
The destabilisation of Yugoslavia that then brought the war started with the Serbian Yogurt Revolution.
With that revolution Serbs destroyed the constitutional order of Yugoslavia by overthrowing with violence the governments and parliaments of Kosova and Vojvodina firstly and then Montenegro. Serbs managed to involve in this operation JNA that in addition to the relatively balanced constitution was the guarantor of the national cohesion. The 2 pillars of Yugoslavia vanished.
Other nations of Yugoslavia felt threatened that may get the same faith- thus started to take distance for the new Yugoslavia- the product of the Yogurt Revolution.
The Serbian calculations were very simple:
We have the backing of the Army;
We have the Diplomatic network;
We have the Central Bank and the hard currencies;
We have the backing of Russia.
Others in their best case have police and everything to start from the scratch. Kosova didn't have even the police.
So the war started on this huge imbalance of power and Serbia thought it will be very easy for her to impose her political will and vision of future Yugoslavia.
Other nations of Yugoslavia resisted more than what Blgd regime believed they could.
Now these international arrest warrants are just a consequence and a proof that nothing has changed in Serbia.
The case of Pruda is same as:
Ganic - in Britain;
Ceku - in Bulgaria;
Oric - in Hague
Against all three of them Serbia brought in front of all these 3 independent courts her arguments of the alleged crimes that these gentlemen’s have committed:
all these 3 independent courts found Serbian arguments being an absolute rubbish and politically/propaganda based accusation.
Now instead of speaking about Jasenovac (that I don’t want to minimize) can we see the present and try to see the future??
Now do you still think that today we have a European Serbia?? By abusing the Interpol for her political agenda (and the Prudas case is a confirmation of this abuse even by Serbian officials themselves issuing and then withdrawing it when you need to face on more independent court) do you think that there is a change in culture in the political elite of Blgd??
I don’t want to demonise Serbs but we cannot do justice by closing eyes- you political elite and conceptualisation of your relation with your neighbours is in the softest possible words disputable by the same your neighbours- not one or two but all of them. Pruda’s case is just the most recent proof.
This decision to no longer pursue the charges against Purda by Serbia comes to me as no suprise.In fact this decision further illustrates the back door politics and manipulation that has defined the entire conflict and clearly still does, the goal now is not to carve a croatian terrority out of serbian terrority or carve a new albanain terrority out serbia but membership to the EU and promise of something better only to find it is the same just called something else. Regardless of dropping of charges or not pursuing them at all against war criminals of coatia or KLA, the fact still remains there were extermination camps operated by croatians such as Camp Lora in Croatia were serbs were murdered existed(google IT)there was ethnic cleanising of serbs by Croats see Krajina and Pocket Medak happened. whether they pursue the croats does not matter any more simply because they wont it does fit the propagandist story of the war. furthermore not pursuing these criminals such as Purda reveals the extent the authorites desire to ensure the propagandist version of the war remain untarnished. but that will never change the fact these events happened krajina pocket medak and many more happened to serbs and serbia. No amount of media manipulation or false commentary can change that just like you cannot change what happened to serbs in JASENOVAC it will always be there.The cnn version of the war is just not good enough for the truth god who believes western media anymore.Of course now will come the inevitable the serbs did this and that. ok show me i can show you pocket medak and more.but remains clear a war started by croats and slovenia achieved it goal creating countrys that never existed in history exist now. so tell me how that benefited the serbs
Slovenes committed war crimes against Serbs? rotflmao!! What new BS is that! I've only met Serbs that proudly revise their own history every year so that they can claim to be the victims of increasingly crazy circumstances
Lets watch closely to see what Croatia does for Serbia in the coming days and weeks.
(bganon, 3 March 2011 20:46) Ya sure Croatia is taking Serbia to court for all the destructive evil it perpetuated. Serbia will be paying Croatia war compensation to the tune of 10s of billions.
Bosnia lost its case against suing Serbia because, technically, "Serbia proper" wasn't the state that was directly tied to the Srebrenica killings. It was the "Bosnian Serbs". Sure, "Serbia proper" endorsed the "Bosnian Serbs", but there is no direct link to the government or army of the country itself. So, Bosnia would have to sue its own citizens, but the Serb variety (which gets very messy and I'm not sure that can work, especially since it goes against the Bosnian muslims wanting to promote a "one Bosnia").
In Croatia's case, however, there were Serbian troops and tanks from Belgrade itself going into Vukovar and ethnically cleansing all non-Serbs. These ARE directly linked to Serbia itself, and the lawsuits actually do hold water.
thank you for you suggestion, on examining the suggested author opinion of the Jasenovac it was clear that the authours opinion was just that an opinion. Furthermore, his opinion was devoid of any factual or historical base instead it appears that the authors cynical manipulation of unsubstated data left the authour looking well frankly biased and to be blunt wrong. I recommend you educate yourself on the historical and census records of the time and include your researh the historcal documentation related to the extermination of serbs in Jasenvoc Wikipideia, arhcival footage and history books including the jewish holocaust society which has conducted exhaustive researh on the extermination of serbs in Jasenovac will provide the most accurate figures starting with jasenovac were the serb victims are approx 700,000. i will add at this time you will find a most comprehensive list of victims on the Jasenovac Insitute site or you could perhaps visit the information centre in Jasenovac itself. I leave that up to you just there are numerous history etc thtat you may find more helpful.
Mia, Mr. Kocovic is a demographer. His work, much like Vladimir Zerjavic's, is based on a number of factors: census figures, birthrates, etc. Neither pulled their numbers out of a hat. His opinion is based on this.
I actually welcome Serbia's case against Croatia for genocide in WW II in the hope that Serb's will be forced to accept the inconvenient truths of their involvement with the Axis powers instead of rehabilitating people such as Mihailovic. Considering the *evidence* that they have presented so far in the cases against Purda, Ganic and now Divjak, this should be interesting.
Lenard quite the opposite. This move by Serbia can only help reconciliation and decrease pressure for court action of the kind you suggest, on both sides.
Those who are filled with hate like yourself must be crying about Serbia's decision. It would be much better for you if Serbia decided to press ahead with prosecution. Too bad! The region will move forward and you will be left behind.
Boy you Serbs live a fantasy land of your self delusional making. Their is no moving forward only self serving expediency when the bite of reality strikes and is striking it will be much to late. You cant have justice without restitution you cant keep your criminally ill gotten "gains" from the ones you murdered and the victimized living and stoled from it is Gods law you break it at your own peril. Because one Serb says sorry Boris Tadić for expediency and the 99% say we did not do anything wrong everything is honky dory only in a Serbs narrow self serving minds. They have a terminal Serbdom religious sin disease of the brain that will catch up and do them in. Sure lets all pretend nothing happened again that is what the Balkans are good at repeating their mistakes. Im good your good what are the delusional victims complaining about tell them to get real bnagon and sj. Maybe we can get them a psychiatrist and convince the millions of victims its probably all in their heads where is that famous psychiatrist/guru Radovan Karadžić http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/world/europe/23karadzic.html?_r=1. 2Th 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie -2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Regarding the number of deaths in WW II I suggest you look at Bogoljub Kocovic's research. If we look at just Croatia, based on census figures from '48, he concluded that 125 000 Serbs and 124 000 Croatians died in Croatia during the war. Unfortunately, this number has been manipulated by the Serbian Orthodox Church and Greater Serbian proponents to justify the means to the ends.
A quote from Mr Kocovic....
''Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would be the myths created over four decades about the number of victims, myths by now deeply implanted in the soul of the people of all religions, political beliefs and nationality; myths which, by repetition became a 'reality'. There will be many who will reject my study because it does not conform to their beliefs...Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred of the Croats.''
(Joze, 4 March 2011 17:49)
RE;Hate Speech
B-92 should be held accountable for allowing this hate speech to even be posted.
The lowest estimates of the number of Serbs, Croats and other Yugoslavs people is 750,000 from the Vad Yashem Jewish Holocaust institute.
That being said, previous generations have lived through it and passed it along to future generations and it shall never be forgotten. This is the same for the Jewish holocaust perportrated by the Nazi's, the Greek and Armenian holocaust perpotrated by the Ottoman empire, the Cambodian holocuast perportrated by Pol Pot and many more.
You can quote Kocovic or any other Croatian fascist , nationalist and Nazi's all you like but you cannot erase the truth.
"demonstration of sheer sadism"Isralei President Shimo Perez visit 25/07/10 to Jasenovac.
Jose
quote "zerajovic (whom Kocovic bases his caculations) applies growth rate for serbs in Bosina at 1.1% (as for nations together), while actual growth rate was 2.4%(1921-1931)" in an attempt to reduce the amount of serb vistims Kocovic has applied inaccurate and incorrect statiscal information regarding the serb poulation and birth rates.The motivations of applying such inaccurate figures is plain for all to see.
please see Jasenovac memoral Jasenovac Croatia for lists and nummber of victims also the Yad Vashem site, the jasenovac Instiute which lists most victims by name and surname also you can see the census published by the Yugoslavian Federal Bureao in 1964 all these are far more illuminating than a demoghrohers flawd mathametcs.We do agree one particular aspect on this most heinous crime that was Jasenovac that any trial or investigation on a world wide stage is sorely needed and welcomed
Regarding the number of deaths in WW II I suggest you look at Bogoljub Kocovic's research. If we look at just Croatia, based on census figures from '48, he concluded that 125 000 Serbs and 124 000 Croatians died in Croatia during the war. Unfortunately, this number has been manipulated by the Serbian Orthodox Church and Greater Serbian proponents to justify the means to the ends.
A quote from Mr Kocovic....
''Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would be the myths created over four decades about the number of victims, myths by now deeply implanted in the soul of the people of all religions, political beliefs and nationality; myths which, by repetition became a 'reality'. There will be many who will reject my study because it does not conform to their beliefs...Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred of the Croats.''
RE; Let us look at evil straight in the eye-Ante Pavelic, The Real Butcher of the Ballkans and the Francisan order. "Jugoslavia" who said they are Christians ,Stalin was studying to be a Orthodox priest we all know how that turned out. As for Ante Pavelić he is in hell for all of eternity and then some more and many of his religious fanatic followers. No amount of prayers by the Pope will get him out. Even Roman Catholics have a belief of paying for their sins in purgatory for a while when they die. Purgatory is just a delusional name for hell its a way for Satan to keep them quiet in hell. What have you against Bogoljub Kočović he calls him self a Jugoslav just like you and is a Serb to boot. I guess he dose not fit your version of history or truth. Or any other Serb that strays from the official Serb orthodoxies version is a traitor.
It's interesting to note that these chetniks are being rehabilitated in Serbia today even though their work with the Nazis and Fascists is well documented.
It's sad that today, in Serbia, Chetniks, are able to get a pension, something that was not possible during Yugoslavia.
Yugoslavia, I assume that you hold in high regard Nikola Kalabic and his assistance in apprehending Mihailovic who was later executed for treason and war crimes.
Lenard you sound like you could do with the services of Radovan Karadzic.
Oh, and I think you have much more in common with the man than I do. You could both talk about historical injustices and ethnic politics.
Meanwhile the world leaves you behind. This is the 21st century in case you have not noticed.
But yes you are right. Its wrong to sweep historical injustices under the carpet isn't it? I'm sure that in 1990 you argued with fellow Croats that they should understand Serbs because they committed genocide against Serbs in the past. Oh, you mean to say you did not???
Aha, I see. 'Sure lets pretend nothing happened'. Those delusional Serbs in Krajina who had entire generations of families wiped out in World War 2 by Croats. They should have been sent to a shrink. Oh wait a minute, they were ethnically cleansed... hmmm.
Lenard you are full of hypocrisy that is licermer in case you don't understand.
did anybody reflect on this:
"44 witnesses were questioned, 13 in Serbia and 31 in Croatia".
Not one or two, but 44 witnesses. Witness means they were probably there, all or some of them. After talking with 44 people it was decided to drop the case. instead of asking to put a man to prison without evidence, people should ask to the prosecutors to do their job better, including catching the right people and building better cases.
Yugoslavia, I assume that you hold in high regard Nikola Kalabic and his assistance in apprehending Mihailovic who was later executed for treason and war crimes.
(Joze, 4 March 2011 23:28)
The historical ramifications between Croatia and Serbia is long and much of it can be blamed on the failed policies of the Yugoslav Royal government as well as Tito's Communist ruled government.
The assassaniation of the Croatian MP Stephan Radic by a Montenegrin parliament official because of a "joke" was the spark. He got a light sentence and was essentialy let out the back door. This was the seed of the Ustasha movement and even good Croatian leaders like Vlado Macek could not prevent the Ustasha from seizing power with the Nazi's.
The current leader Josipovic is one of those good Croat leaders but is being pressured by a strong facscist element that still exists in Croatia, a generation that has made it's way back from the Rat lines of the Vatican and Argentina.
To equate the horrific crimes of the Ustasha to the Chetniks is the standard response. The Chetniks crimes pale in comparision to what the Ustasha did to innocent civlians.
Both the Chetnik and Partisan movements grew becasue of the attrocities committed by Pavelic and his henchman.
Before answering your post I made several overseas enquiries to find out for myself why Belgrade has decided to “drop the case against Purda”.
Firstly, Belgrade has evidence of Purda’s activities and there is more than enough to lock him up for a long time, but there are more pressing matters to consider such as the current Croatian Government and its ability to stand considering it’s under tremendous pressure from all fronts. You see your government is entrusted in fulfilling EU requirements and the first is reconsolidation with the Serbs – notice Josipovic and Dodik????, second is compensation to Serbs refugees (the agreement reached is both detailed and comprehensive).
Secondly, there are moves for Croatia to drop the compensation case against Serbia at the International Court as part of that settlement. So you see it’s not a matter of no evidence, but priority – governments are not very nice people. In saying this, the list of 100 war criminals with Zagreb is still active and will be dealt with at a later stage. You will note that the press release for Purda did not say “the case against Purda is CLOSED” it just said it was dropped - but for the moment.
Jason its true that Croatia has a better case than Bosnia.
However, its a huge tin of worms because the judges would effectively have to rule on the legality of Croatian independence. Was the decleration legal? What date would they decide that JNA troops on Croatian territory became 'foreign' forces? Would it be from when the EU recognised Croatia as a state, or when Croatia officially declared independence? What about damage before then?
Not impossible questions to answer, but a case that many would prefer to settle out of court, not least the judges.
Thats before even considering any counter claims that Serbs within Croatia could make. I mean calculate the cost of damage in Croatia and expect Serbia to pay for damage to Serbian property in Krajina, Slavonia and so on, damage made by Croatian forces? I think Croatian Serbs would have something to say about that.
Due to the warming of relations between the Serbian and Croatian government and this complexity I wouldn't be suprised if an out of court settlement is made.
Slovenes committed war crimes against Serbs? rotflmao!! What new BS is that! I've only met Serbs that proudly revise their own history every year so that they can claim to be the victims of increasingly crazy circumstances
(Trevor, 4 March 2011 08:01)
RE: Crimes against the JNA
The so called Slovenian revolutionary army committed crimes against the JNA recruits who were ordered to secure the Jugoslav borders murdering over 70 soldiers who were ordered not to fire back at the Slovenes. The irony is that many of those JNA soldiers that were killed were Slovenian including some high ranking officers.
Nenad, I've posted the links before and they are not that hard to find if you google Marko Prešeren.
I need not explain why such a report was so briefly covered if at all when it came out. Only the 'official truth' counts when it comes to the Balkans, though ICTY transcripts also expose a lot that has been deliberately ignored or forgotten.
Here are the links again:
In English (politically correct) reported here on B92 back in 2009:
Oh Jason, be careful! We all know that Republika Srpska Krajina was a completely separate political entity with its own military and police. Milan Babic, Milan Martic and Goran Hadzic called all the shots -- Belgrade had no involvement in the war there. Sightings of Stanisic, Frenki, Arkan and Seselj on Croatian soil are purely fabricated.
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie -2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 18:45)
RE; Let us look at evil straight in the eye-Ante Pavelic, The Real Butcher of the Ballkans and the Francisan order.
Ya sure Croatia is taking Serbia to court for all the destructive evil it perpetuated. Serbia will be paying Croatia war compensation to the tune of 10s of billions.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 09:38)
Croatia lodged a case with the International Court against Serbia about this time last year, but it’s more symbolic than anything else because Bosnia did the same thing and lost in 2009, I think – not too sure of the year.
Once Croatia decided to continue with the case Serbia lodged a counter claim which covered WW2. But there are rumors that this will be dispensed with as part of getting on together.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 18:45)
Just keep on watching and you’ll see we are right. Croatia is finished as it became technically broke late last year and all of the unrest you see on TV now comes as a result of drastic budget cuts by the Croatian Government.
I wrote about this in 2009; that the EU’s projected income would force many countries benefiting from EU aid to tighten their belts. Then in 2010 it because obvious that the situation was much worse than ever before and I can tell you that this belt tightening will continue with Croatia having to reduce its expenditure even further in 2011 until 2015 and that’s if the world recovers from the current recession.
There was nothing secret about all this information, but you had to know where to look for it and know what you are looking at.
Here is my challenge to you. Tell me how is Croatia going to survive if it does not cooperate with Belgrade? I asked the same question from the Albanians in kosovo and they talk about freedom and democracy, but that is a tad chewy on the dinner plate and you walk away hungry.
I am happy to be proven wrong.
Serbia drops case against Purda my friend sj what were you saying o yes. But people like you are too thick to understand that if Belgrade does not throw a bone or two to Zagreb it’s finished – ask yourself why is Purda being extradited to Belgrade???…?? This would not have happened 10 years ago ha, ha, ha. Oh there are 100 more to be handed over to Belgrade.
Cheers
(sj, 1 March 2011 22:33) I have said all along Serbia again will have egg on its face. How many times has Serbia issued arrest warrants through Interpol. They are tired of Serbias amateur fishing expeditions now they just role their eyes at Serbia trying to blame the victims of Serbias state terrorism of sponsored criminal war aggression on its neighbours. Serbia should look into all the different Serbian paramilitary groups that they sent in to the country of Bosnia ,Croatia and Kosovo. You will have decades of work prosecuting the murdering ,raping ,destroying ,pillaging ethnic cleansing low liefs bandits that were sent by the government of Serbia. That are accused of perpetuating the most heinous crimes on civilians of other countrys not seen since WW2 you will have much success their. I know Serbs like to live in a delusional world of their own self made righteous in a very narrow fanatical space of Serbdom. Their brand of hypocrisy the Serbian made religious orthodoxy. That has nothing to do with Gods word the bible. Cheers sj and Serbs
Shame oh this government.
If it didn't have enough evidence, do you really think they would have went after him? Power to the people! Serbia rise above this act!
re: Aleks & me not knowing what a concentration camp is....
Aleks, prisoners from Croatia, Bosnia and probably Kosovo were interned in these camps. They went through hell and no one has been prosecuted nor is there talk of this in Serbia, why? Is it because the victims were not Serbs?
Who are you to say what a concentration camp is when you negate the existance of such camps in Serbia?
Edit correction: "authoritative history of the war in Slovenia" - NOT Croatia. Whatever, both the Slovenes and Croats started hostilities, the latter only coming to light officially with the arrest of that fat neo-ustasa, Tomislav Mercep.
(Aleks, 3 March 2011 20:24)
No, the war started in Kosova and ended there with total disintagration of artificial Yugo. Serbs started and I am glad they did, but feel very bad for all the bloodshed.
Before answering your post I made several overseas enquiries to find out for myself why Belgrade has decided to “drop the case against Purda”.
Firstly, Belgrade has evidence of Purda’s activities and there is more than enough to lock him up for a long time, but there are more pressing matters to consider such as the current Croatian Government and its ability to stand considering it’s under tremendous pressure from all fronts. You see your government is entrusted in fulfilling EU requirements and the first is reconsolidation with the Serbs – notice Josipovic and Dodik????, second is compensation to Serbs refugees (the agreement reached is both detailed and comprehensive).
Secondly, there are moves for Croatia to drop the compensation case against Serbia at the International Court as part of that settlement. So you see it’s not a matter of no evidence, but priority – governments are not very nice people. In saying this, the list of 100 war criminals with Zagreb is still active and will be dealt with at a later stage. You will note that the press release for Purda did not say “the case against Purda is CLOSED” it just said it was dropped - but for the moment.
Mia, Mr. Kocovic is a demographer. His work, much like Vladimir Zerjavic's, is based on a number of factors: census figures, birthrates, etc. Neither pulled their numbers out of a hat. His opinion is based on this.
I actually welcome Serbia's case against Croatia for genocide in WW II in the hope that Serb's will be forced to accept the inconvenient truths of their involvement with the Axis powers instead of rehabilitating people such as Mihailovic. Considering the *evidence* that they have presented so far in the cases against Purda, Ganic and now Divjak, this should be interesting.
Is this Belgrade's sop to Brussels? It is pathetic in the extreme. But then again, there are only official victims. Slovenia has not prosecuted a single slovene for war crimes it carried out, only fake crimes of ex-JNA soldiers. Slovene researcher Marko Preseren was tasked by the slovene parliament to write and research an authoratitve history of the 'war' in Croatia and his results were that there was no 'war', slovene's committed war crimes and were not prosecuted etc. Google it ladies and weep.
Re: Joze. You clearly don't know what a concentration camp is (apart from the fantasy construction in you own mind). Get on your knees and pray for forgivness for this sin.
Lenard what a suprise you come here to constantly lecture about Serbian war criminals and not a word passes your lips about the alleged crimes of Purda and company.
Instead of criticising Serbia all the time, how about wondering about the case in hand. That is, are a bunch of murderers about to be let free on the streets of Croatia without any justice? I say that because that is the normal reaction of a human being.
On the topic I don't know the truth of it, but it looks suspicious. People are looking quite far west, but I wouldn't be suprised at all if this 'favour' wasn't a local deal between Serbia and Croatia with 'input' from the EU. Its a fact that the war veterans and their assorted war criminal supporters of Gotovina, various nationalists and hooligans took to the streets of Zagreb some days ago. The Croatian government may just about be able to cope with the current protests, but when the 'veterans' come out it has a higher political, financial (policing if nothing else) and economic cost.
Lets watch closely to see what Croatia does for Serbia in the coming days and weeks.
The destabilisation of Yugoslavia that then brought the war started with the Serbian Yogurt Revolution.
With that revolution Serbs destroyed the constitutional order of Yugoslavia by overthrowing with violence the governments and parliaments of Kosova and Vojvodina firstly and then Montenegro. Serbs managed to involve in this operation JNA that in addition to the relatively balanced constitution was the guarantor of the national cohesion. The 2 pillars of Yugoslavia vanished.
Other nations of Yugoslavia felt threatened that may get the same faith- thus started to take distance for the new Yugoslavia- the product of the Yogurt Revolution.
The Serbian calculations were very simple:
We have the backing of the Army;
We have the Diplomatic network;
We have the Central Bank and the hard currencies;
We have the backing of Russia.
Others in their best case have police and everything to start from the scratch. Kosova didn't have even the police.
So the war started on this huge imbalance of power and Serbia thought it will be very easy for her to impose her political will and vision of future Yugoslavia.
Other nations of Yugoslavia resisted more than what Blgd regime believed they could.
Now these international arrest warrants are just a consequence and a proof that nothing has changed in Serbia.
The case of Pruda is same as:
Ganic - in Britain;
Ceku - in Bulgaria;
Oric - in Hague
Against all three of them Serbia brought in front of all these 3 independent courts her arguments of the alleged crimes that these gentlemen’s have committed:
all these 3 independent courts found Serbian arguments being an absolute rubbish and politically/propaganda based accusation.
Now instead of speaking about Jasenovac (that I don’t want to minimize) can we see the present and try to see the future??
Now do you still think that today we have a European Serbia?? By abusing the Interpol for her political agenda (and the Prudas case is a confirmation of this abuse even by Serbian officials themselves issuing and then withdrawing it when you need to face on more independent court) do you think that there is a change in culture in the political elite of Blgd??
I don’t want to demonise Serbs but we cannot do justice by closing eyes- you political elite and conceptualisation of your relation with your neighbours is in the softest possible words disputable by the same your neighbours- not one or two but all of them. Pruda’s case is just the most recent proof.
Edit correction: "authoritative history of the war in Slovenia" - NOT Croatia. Whatever, both the Slovenes and Croats started hostilities, the latter only coming to light officially with the arrest of that fat neo-ustasa, Tomislav Mercep.
This decision to no longer pursue the charges against Purda by Serbia comes to me as no suprise.In fact this decision further illustrates the back door politics and manipulation that has defined the entire conflict and clearly still does, the goal now is not to carve a croatian terrority out of serbian terrority or carve a new albanain terrority out serbia but membership to the EU and promise of something better only to find it is the same just called something else. Regardless of dropping of charges or not pursuing them at all against war criminals of coatia or KLA, the fact still remains there were extermination camps operated by croatians such as Camp Lora in Croatia were serbs were murdered existed(google IT)there was ethnic cleanising of serbs by Croats see Krajina and Pocket Medak happened. whether they pursue the croats does not matter any more simply because they wont it does fit the propagandist story of the war. furthermore not pursuing these criminals such as Purda reveals the extent the authorites desire to ensure the propagandist version of the war remain untarnished. but that will never change the fact these events happened krajina pocket medak and many more happened to serbs and serbia. No amount of media manipulation or false commentary can change that just like you cannot change what happened to serbs in JASENOVAC it will always be there.The cnn version of the war is just not good enough for the truth god who believes western media anymore.Of course now will come the inevitable the serbs did this and that. ok show me i can show you pocket medak and more.but remains clear a war started by croats and slovenia achieved it goal creating countrys that never existed in history exist now. so tell me how that benefited the serbs
Now they should identify who were those people who gathered Purda's confession and bring to light the existance of these concentration camps. If we know about Manjaca, Omarska, etc then we should also know about these in order to move forward.
Lenard quite the opposite. This move by Serbia can only help reconciliation and decrease pressure for court action of the kind you suggest, on both sides.
Those who are filled with hate like yourself must be crying about Serbia's decision. It would be much better for you if Serbia decided to press ahead with prosecution. Too bad! The region will move forward and you will be left behind.
Regarding the number of deaths in WW II I suggest you look at Bogoljub Kocovic's research. If we look at just Croatia, based on census figures from '48, he concluded that 125 000 Serbs and 124 000 Croatians died in Croatia during the war. Unfortunately, this number has been manipulated by the Serbian Orthodox Church and Greater Serbian proponents to justify the means to the ends.
A quote from Mr Kocovic....
''Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would be the myths created over four decades about the number of victims, myths by now deeply implanted in the soul of the people of all religions, political beliefs and nationality; myths which, by repetition became a 'reality'. There will be many who will reject my study because it does not conform to their beliefs...Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred of the Croats.''
(Joze, 4 March 2011 17:49)
RE;Hate Speech
B-92 should be held accountable for allowing this hate speech to even be posted.
The lowest estimates of the number of Serbs, Croats and other Yugoslavs people is 750,000 from the Vad Yashem Jewish Holocaust institute.
That being said, previous generations have lived through it and passed it along to future generations and it shall never be forgotten. This is the same for the Jewish holocaust perportrated by the Nazi's, the Greek and Armenian holocaust perpotrated by the Ottoman empire, the Cambodian holocuast perportrated by Pol Pot and many more.
You can quote Kocovic or any other Croatian fascist , nationalist and Nazi's all you like but you cannot erase the truth.
Lets watch closely to see what Croatia does for Serbia in the coming days and weeks.
(bganon, 3 March 2011 20:46) Ya sure Croatia is taking Serbia to court for all the destructive evil it perpetuated. Serbia will be paying Croatia war compensation to the tune of 10s of billions.
Ya sure Croatia is taking Serbia to court for all the destructive evil it perpetuated. Serbia will be paying Croatia war compensation to the tune of 10s of billions.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 09:38)
Croatia lodged a case with the International Court against Serbia about this time last year, but it’s more symbolic than anything else because Bosnia did the same thing and lost in 2009, I think – not too sure of the year.
Once Croatia decided to continue with the case Serbia lodged a counter claim which covered WW2. But there are rumors that this will be dispensed with as part of getting on together.
Regarding the number of deaths in WW II I suggest you look at Bogoljub Kocovic's research. If we look at just Croatia, based on census figures from '48, he concluded that 125 000 Serbs and 124 000 Croatians died in Croatia during the war. Unfortunately, this number has been manipulated by the Serbian Orthodox Church and Greater Serbian proponents to justify the means to the ends.
A quote from Mr Kocovic....
''Very soon it dawned upon me that the major obstacle to my work would be the myths created over four decades about the number of victims, myths by now deeply implanted in the soul of the people of all religions, political beliefs and nationality; myths which, by repetition became a 'reality'. There will be many who will reject my study because it does not conform to their beliefs...Many of them are looking for spiritual food to ignite their hatred of the Croats.''
Oh Jason, be careful! We all know that Republika Srpska Krajina was a completely separate political entity with its own military and police. Milan Babic, Milan Martic and Goran Hadzic called all the shots -- Belgrade had no involvement in the war there. Sightings of Stanisic, Frenki, Arkan and Seselj on Croatian soil are purely fabricated.
Boy you Serbs live a fantasy land of your self delusional making. Their is no moving forward only self serving expediency when the bite of reality strikes and is striking it will be much to late. You cant have justice without restitution you cant keep your criminally ill gotten "gains" from the ones you murdered and the victimized living and stoled from it is Gods law you break it at your own peril. Because one Serb says sorry Boris Tadić for expediency and the 99% say we did not do anything wrong everything is honky dory only in a Serbs narrow self serving minds. They have a terminal Serbdom religious sin disease of the brain that will catch up and do them in. Sure lets all pretend nothing happened again that is what the Balkans are good at repeating their mistakes. Im good your good what are the delusional victims complaining about tell them to get real bnagon and sj. Maybe we can get them a psychiatrist and convince the millions of victims its probably all in their heads where is that famous psychiatrist/guru Radovan Karadžić http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/world/europe/23karadzic.html?_r=1. 2Th 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie -2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Jason its true that Croatia has a better case than Bosnia.
However, its a huge tin of worms because the judges would effectively have to rule on the legality of Croatian independence. Was the decleration legal? What date would they decide that JNA troops on Croatian territory became 'foreign' forces? Would it be from when the EU recognised Croatia as a state, or when Croatia officially declared independence? What about damage before then?
Not impossible questions to answer, but a case that many would prefer to settle out of court, not least the judges.
Thats before even considering any counter claims that Serbs within Croatia could make. I mean calculate the cost of damage in Croatia and expect Serbia to pay for damage to Serbian property in Krajina, Slavonia and so on, damage made by Croatian forces? I think Croatian Serbs would have something to say about that.
Due to the warming of relations between the Serbian and Croatian government and this complexity I wouldn't be suprised if an out of court settlement is made.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 18:45)
Just keep on watching and you’ll see we are right. Croatia is finished as it became technically broke late last year and all of the unrest you see on TV now comes as a result of drastic budget cuts by the Croatian Government.
I wrote about this in 2009; that the EU’s projected income would force many countries benefiting from EU aid to tighten their belts. Then in 2010 it because obvious that the situation was much worse than ever before and I can tell you that this belt tightening will continue with Croatia having to reduce its expenditure even further in 2011 until 2015 and that’s if the world recovers from the current recession.
There was nothing secret about all this information, but you had to know where to look for it and know what you are looking at.
Here is my challenge to you. Tell me how is Croatia going to survive if it does not cooperate with Belgrade? I asked the same question from the Albanians in kosovo and they talk about freedom and democracy, but that is a tad chewy on the dinner plate and you walk away hungry.
I am happy to be proven wrong.
Cheers to the Serbian justice system for making the right decision! A Serb judge himself said he has no intention of pursuing accusations against people who "admitted to war crimes" while in concentration camps. In addition, cooperation between various officials shows what kind of future might be possible. Watering down your legitimacy on cases like this doesn't help when the real crimes of the many war profiteers and gangsters all across the Balkans come into play.
Lenard you sound like you could do with the services of Radovan Karadzic.
Oh, and I think you have much more in common with the man than I do. You could both talk about historical injustices and ethnic politics.
Meanwhile the world leaves you behind. This is the 21st century in case you have not noticed.
But yes you are right. Its wrong to sweep historical injustices under the carpet isn't it? I'm sure that in 1990 you argued with fellow Croats that they should understand Serbs because they committed genocide against Serbs in the past. Oh, you mean to say you did not???
Aha, I see. 'Sure lets pretend nothing happened'. Those delusional Serbs in Krajina who had entire generations of families wiped out in World War 2 by Croats. They should have been sent to a shrink. Oh wait a minute, they were ethnically cleansed... hmmm.
Lenard you are full of hypocrisy that is licermer in case you don't understand.
I was just recently reading about the Slovene conflict on Wikipedia and there is mention of an alleged war crime against a bunch of JNA soldiers who had tried to surrender, but the article claims that all these soldiers were subsequently found to be alive.
Can you save us all a bit of trouble and provide a link to definitive proof of what you say?
I know Wikipedia has some questionable material so I certainly wouldn't declare its version "fact". I just don't know where else I might find veritable information.
I will say that I always found that "war" (you seem to object to that word) a bit of a mystery.
It's pretty well documented that Milosevic had already given Kucan the OK to leave Yugoslavia.
We then saw a limited invasion to secure borders, which the article on Wikipedia points out were a valuable revenue source.
The JNA had some difficulty with its small-scale invasion and so its general staff started squawking for a full-scale attack. Supposedly, Milosevic and Jovic weren't interested. But hey, what about the breakup of Yugoslavia? Weren't they for keeping the country together? Why stop after a half-hearted 10-day campaign with fewer than a couple hundred casualties?
Meanwhile, there were rumors of reinforcements on the move, supposedly intended for Slovenia but suddenly haulted and deployed in Croatia instead.
Was the whole Slovenia operation just a big smoke screen?
Slovenes committed war crimes against Serbs? rotflmao!! What new BS is that! I've only met Serbs that proudly revise their own history every year so that they can claim to be the victims of increasingly crazy circumstances
Nenad, I've posted the links before and they are not that hard to find if you google Marko Prešeren.
I need not explain why such a report was so briefly covered if at all when it came out. Only the 'official truth' counts when it comes to the Balkans, though ICTY transcripts also expose a lot that has been deliberately ignored or forgotten.
Here are the links again:
In English (politically correct) reported here on B92 back in 2009:
thank you for you suggestion, on examining the suggested author opinion of the Jasenovac it was clear that the authours opinion was just that an opinion. Furthermore, his opinion was devoid of any factual or historical base instead it appears that the authors cynical manipulation of unsubstated data left the authour looking well frankly biased and to be blunt wrong. I recommend you educate yourself on the historical and census records of the time and include your researh the historcal documentation related to the extermination of serbs in Jasenvoc Wikipideia, arhcival footage and history books including the jewish holocaust society which has conducted exhaustive researh on the extermination of serbs in Jasenovac will provide the most accurate figures starting with jasenovac were the serb victims are approx 700,000. i will add at this time you will find a most comprehensive list of victims on the Jasenovac Insitute site or you could perhaps visit the information centre in Jasenovac itself. I leave that up to you just there are numerous history etc thtat you may find more helpful.
Yugoslavia, I assume that you hold in high regard Nikola Kalabic and his assistance in apprehending Mihailovic who was later executed for treason and war crimes.
(Joze, 4 March 2011 23:28)
The historical ramifications between Croatia and Serbia is long and much of it can be blamed on the failed policies of the Yugoslav Royal government as well as Tito's Communist ruled government.
The assassaniation of the Croatian MP Stephan Radic by a Montenegrin parliament official because of a "joke" was the spark. He got a light sentence and was essentialy let out the back door. This was the seed of the Ustasha movement and even good Croatian leaders like Vlado Macek could not prevent the Ustasha from seizing power with the Nazi's.
The current leader Josipovic is one of those good Croat leaders but is being pressured by a strong facscist element that still exists in Croatia, a generation that has made it's way back from the Rat lines of the Vatican and Argentina.
To equate the horrific crimes of the Ustasha to the Chetniks is the standard response. The Chetniks crimes pale in comparision to what the Ustasha did to innocent civlians.
Both the Chetnik and Partisan movements grew becasue of the attrocities committed by Pavelic and his henchman.
It's interesting to note that these chetniks are being rehabilitated in Serbia today even though their work with the Nazis and Fascists is well documented.
It's sad that today, in Serbia, Chetniks, are able to get a pension, something that was not possible during Yugoslavia.
Yugoslavia, I assume that you hold in high regard Nikola Kalabic and his assistance in apprehending Mihailovic who was later executed for treason and war crimes.
did anybody reflect on this:
"44 witnesses were questioned, 13 in Serbia and 31 in Croatia".
Not one or two, but 44 witnesses. Witness means they were probably there, all or some of them. After talking with 44 people it was decided to drop the case. instead of asking to put a man to prison without evidence, people should ask to the prosecutors to do their job better, including catching the right people and building better cases.
Has anybody asked themselves why was the arrest of Purda controversial?
1. The state which he is suing as a type of class action civil suit for the treatment of wartime prisoners in an undeclared war is the same state prosecuting him for war crimes.
2. Re 1, the existence and treatment of those prisoners are an essential element in establishing Belgrades direct involvement in the conflict in Croatia and are an important plank in the genocide case against Serbia.
3. The basis of of Purda's prosecution is a confession he gave while interned in a Serb POW camp in a war Serbia was officially not involved in.
The fact of the lack of evidence shows that there wasn't enough to substantiate a prosecution in the first place.
Rather than being a demonstration of the rule of law, it is a second example (after the criticism by Workman J of the British Magistrates court) of a political prosecution and shows that the Serbia judicial arm in not independent of politics.
Bosnia lost its case against suing Serbia because, technically, "Serbia proper" wasn't the state that was directly tied to the Srebrenica killings. It was the "Bosnian Serbs". Sure, "Serbia proper" endorsed the "Bosnian Serbs", but there is no direct link to the government or army of the country itself. So, Bosnia would have to sue its own citizens, but the Serb variety (which gets very messy and I'm not sure that can work, especially since it goes against the Bosnian muslims wanting to promote a "one Bosnia").
In Croatia's case, however, there were Serbian troops and tanks from Belgrade itself going into Vukovar and ethnically cleansing all non-Serbs. These ARE directly linked to Serbia itself, and the lawsuits actually do hold water.
Slovenes committed war crimes against Serbs? rotflmao!! What new BS is that! I've only met Serbs that proudly revise their own history every year so that they can claim to be the victims of increasingly crazy circumstances
(Trevor, 4 March 2011 08:01)
RE: Crimes against the JNA
The so called Slovenian revolutionary army committed crimes against the JNA recruits who were ordered to secure the Jugoslav borders murdering over 70 soldiers who were ordered not to fire back at the Slovenes. The irony is that many of those JNA soldiers that were killed were Slovenian including some high ranking officers.
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie -2Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
(Lenard, 4 March 2011 18:45)
RE; Let us look at evil straight in the eye-Ante Pavelic, The Real Butcher of the Ballkans and the Francisan order.
RE; Let us look at evil straight in the eye-Ante Pavelic, The Real Butcher of the Ballkans and the Francisan order. "Jugoslavia" who said they are Christians ,Stalin was studying to be a Orthodox priest we all know how that turned out. As for Ante Pavelić he is in hell for all of eternity and then some more and many of his religious fanatic followers. No amount of prayers by the Pope will get him out. Even Roman Catholics have a belief of paying for their sins in purgatory for a while when they die. Purgatory is just a delusional name for hell its a way for Satan to keep them quiet in hell. What have you against Bogoljub Kočović he calls him self a Jugoslav just like you and is a Serb to boot. I guess he dose not fit your version of history or truth. Or any other Serb that strays from the official Serb orthodoxies version is a traitor.
"demonstration of sheer sadism"Isralei President Shimo Perez visit 25/07/10 to Jasenovac.
Jose
quote "zerajovic (whom Kocovic bases his caculations) applies growth rate for serbs in Bosina at 1.1% (as for nations together), while actual growth rate was 2.4%(1921-1931)" in an attempt to reduce the amount of serb vistims Kocovic has applied inaccurate and incorrect statiscal information regarding the serb poulation and birth rates.The motivations of applying such inaccurate figures is plain for all to see.
please see Jasenovac memoral Jasenovac Croatia for lists and nummber of victims also the Yad Vashem site, the jasenovac Instiute which lists most victims by name and surname also you can see the census published by the Yugoslavian Federal Bureao in 1964 all these are far more illuminating than a demoghrohers flawd mathametcs.We do agree one particular aspect on this most heinous crime that was Jasenovac that any trial or investigation on a world wide stage is sorely needed and welcomed
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