Ex-SNS official back in Radicals' fold

Nikolic has definitely been talking to the yanks, and who knows what kind of negotiations those were. Be wary of anyone who is getting support, financial or otherwise, from outsiders (Examples...Cedo Jovanovic, Natasa Kandic, Sonja Biserko, Boris Tadic....).
Once they do this, these people cease to work for the good of the Serbian citizens but work for the interests of outsiders.
I think the yanks are seeing that Tadic may be losing popularity quickly, and are looking for a second 'electable' horse to back and put in their pockets.
Let's not forget that these yanks are the same people who supported Mubarak for 30 years and have no problems supporting ANYONE who listens to them and is obedient to them.

Olli,
You fail to mention one very important detail. Serbia is a democracy, and in Serbia people are free to talk to whoever they want. I certainly hope Serbian citizens are smart enough to notice who is working for their interests and who is working for the interests of outsiders. With your silly comparison with Enver Hoxha, this was not the case now was it?
Next time please try have logical arguments if you want to have a battle of wits. Comparing a free and open society to one of the most repressive regimes ever is just plain dumb.

Unfortunately Nikolic has sold out.

Olli,
Comparing me to Enver Hoxha is as ridiculous as comparing Serbia to albania, and you have done both.
I have news for you, Serbia is light years ahead of albania in every aspect. Even Kosovo is light years ahead of albania - just compare the infrastructure, education, and standards of living and you will then see why so many albanians illegaly immigrated to Kosovo with Tito's blessing. These ingrates, instead of being thankfull, now are trying to steal sovereign Serbian land with the help of Germany and the US.
In fact the only good thing that has come out of all of this is that the US and EU are now stuck with the bill, paying more and more into that bottomless pit, that fake, illegal, and immoral 'state' which is Kosovo. I am glad that Kosovo will help bankrupt the EU and the US, and speed up the process. Once the empire collapses, Serbia will be ready to take back what is hers.
Cheers!

Here is the proof that Nikolic has sold out in the true sense of the word. I have written about this “Judas goat” and now it’s in the open for all to see. Nikolic enriched himself during the Milosevic years and wanted to turn the Radicals into a western poodle so he could continue to get paid.
“….never learned what the SNS program was", and that he was told this was because it was "written in English".
How stupid are these people you ask? Well they are as dumb as their masters who were even too lazy to translate it into Serbian. Tells you a lot about US/EU competence.

This has less to do with policies on the Hague and so on.

Much more to do with the fact that Nikolic is building a DOS style coalition. The problem with that is that it means fewer jobs to go around.

Delic had been promised the defence portfolio if SNS got to power. Looks like SNS had a better offer.
Conversely the SRS has a distinct lack of talent, as seen by the fact that the witless Todorovic is deputy leader.

Guess Delic thinks he can take over SRS once Seselj dies, as lets face it, Seselj is of that 'tradition' of staying party leader until he is carried out in his coffin.

All pretty ridiculous really.

Contrary to Ataman's conclutions I'm getting more optimistic.

These so-called parties DSS, SRS and SNS are in fact just groupings of people around one person, the party founder. These parties live and will die together with their founders. Their programs consist of mixed bag of party founders' views and fixed ideas, usually based on negative and arrogant attitudes, and on inability for fresh thinking.

This is in growing scale understood by the citizenry. And this means I'm getting more optimistic.

But poor those people who will lay their and Serbia's future on Seselj. My comprehension isn't enough to figure out why they haven't learnt anything yet.

Zoran,

I'm afraid you are dreaming away. Instead, try to answer Danilo's question:

"Why would the Albanians agree to such a plan?"

You must go to the basics. What could you offer Albanians to get them to agree about the plan? What?

Unfortunately Nikolic has sold out.
(Zoran, 28 February 2011 13:24)

There you go - like your neighbor in north. Everyone sold out except one party but it's program is either unacceptable or the party's past is unacceptable.

I am getting more pessimistic.

Zoran I guess its not too suprising that the level of patriotism of an individual in politics is measured in terms of how much money they can make out of it. Delic worked out that greater personal gain was with SRS so he returned. No doubt he would return to SNS again if the price was right.

Another one is Zoran Stankovic, one a favourite of 'patriots', a childhood friend of Ratko Mladic who appeared at the Hague (or NATO Court as you call it) to set the prosecution straight on a number of cases.

Now he is a member of G17 and wants to lead Serbia into NATO.

Serbian politics is littered who preach patriotism in public and preach something completely different in private.

Thats not to say that most most politicians are guilty of that, they are, but those die hard believers on the right - their hearts would be completely broken if they knew who they were voting for. Most centerists know that their party leaders don't have principles.

Olli, I have described my thinking many times. It falls along the lines of "more than autonomy, less than independence".

The guidelines are fairly simple.

1. Serbia does not want to and should not attempt to control KiM Albanians. They get self-rule (pretty much what they have now).

2. Ethnic Albanians cannot and should not attempt to control the KiM Serbians (which they are still attempting and sowing the seeds of instability).

3. The territory should come under a shared agreement. This debate about Serbia's sovereignty or independence really is pointless. It is attempting to find a solution within a limited black and white box. Why? If the system is flawed, change it!

China found a model for Hong Kong so we can find a model for Kosovo. Independence was attempted and it failed.

Yes, I am a patriotic Serbian. I love my country and want the best for it. I accept that it is multicultural and all citizens should be treated with respect. We should remain a free, independent and neutral country without the evils of foreign manipulation. That means no EU also.

NEWS FLASH:

Every Serb is a "radical" so it doesnt matter what political party, team, band, school any of them is a member of.

End of story.

My comprehension isn't enough to figure out why they haven't learnt anything yet.
(Olli, 28 February 2011 16:52)
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Of course not Olli, you think Kosovo independence is a good idea so how can you comprehend what patriotic Serbians might want for their country?

Kosovo independence is a narrow-minded "solution" that has failed and will not solve a thing. In fact, it rewards terrorists and criminals, who have flourished in the region since 1999.

The problem Serbia has is that no strong leader has emerged but the best of the group of bad politicians is Kostunica.

bganon, so SNS found a NATO friendly defence minister? Not too surprising.

Ataman you are actually too kind about Kostunica.

He was too long in government for people to believe only the difficult, uninformed or nationalist tag.

Kostunica is a man that has never offered any solutions. He can only offer criticisms and complains bitterly whenever people don't agree with him. On important decisions Kostunica was utterly paralysed and unwilling to take a position. Compare that to his almost opposite Djindjic who was only interested in solutions and would agree to disagree to move towards a greater goal. Regardless of my differences with Djindjic on policy, a better leader is somebody than can do something, rather than somebody who can do nothing.

Kostunica knows what NOT to do, but does not know what to do. There is nothing worse than somebody like this in government and if Kostunica was honest he would tell you that he prefers to be in opposition. That way he is always right and does not have the burden of responsiblity.

Seems you guys still don't understand. KiM Albanians have pretty much gone as far as they can. After three years do you think they've left a stone unturned? Perhaps a pebble but I doubt any stones are left. What else is there to take? They can't take the North as that is a red line Tadic/Serbia will go to war over. We can't take the South as that would mean instability and war also.

There is nothing left but negotiations my friends as progress is blocked. That is what we offer. Do you think NATO/US/EU can endlessly throw funds down this black hole? Everyone has agreed to negotiations and it is about normalising relations and facing reality. Independence is out of the question as it is irreversibly blocked. Further recognitions are pointless as the important ones have already decided. Some people think that getting 100 will change things. Please explain how?

I am just facing reality and what is on offer is just normalisation of relations. It makes me sick thinking that we have to negotiate with criminals, terrorists and the mafia but that whole province is so tied up in crime that there probably isn't another option at the moment.

Exactly where am I dreaming? You think "Kosova" will become Independent? Gain a UN seat? Take the North? Join with Albania? Become prosperous? You know KiM Albanians probably have more in common with Serbians than Albanians proper. Look at the Turkish Cypriots, after decades apart they voted to join up with the Greeks. Why didn't they push to join up with Turkey?

Kostunica knows what NOT to do, but does not know what to do. (bganon, 1 March 2011 01:48)

RE: Kostunica-

Kostunica is a dogmatic constitutionalist, the two most promiment decisions he made during his tenure as PM were the following:

(1) Sending Milosevic to the Hague Tribunal against the Serbian Constitution and predicated against the acceptance of "US Aid" which amount to nothing more than bribes. Djindic of course gave the order, but Kostunica against his better judgement finaly relinquished and released Milosevic to the Hague Trubinal and without as so much as an indictment from the Belgrade courts which could not find any evidence against him. The Hague Tribunal could not prove the case against him either.

(2) Kostunica amended the consitution to reinforce that Kosovo and Metojia is sovereign under the Republic of Serbia. No Serbian leader will dare change the constituion to allow the Albanians to steal it which will amount to political suicide.

Kostunica certainly knew what to do; the problem is he did not have broad enough support to get it all done.

Zoran,

I'm truly sorry but only conclusion I can draw from your answer is: You have nothing to offer Albanians in order to get them supporting "more than autonomy..." agreement.

I'm not siding with them but I can see a fact.

This matter is not about who gets south or north. It's all about how people will live.

Zoran, you are free to dream of other Kosovo solutions. But be honest, dreams are far from reality. What is your workable solution? Give me a solution that wouldn't demand turning Serbia into a police state in constant state of emergency.

Build such Serbia that Kosovars come to suggest negotiations of joined fortunes and prospects. Otherwise you would need violence to keep it together, continuous suffering in both sides, actions that would drain not only all material resources but also all mental, human resources.

Being patriotic Serb doesn't mean being a trunk of tree that doesn't know to bend in wind and survive. Why should Serbia break itself, cause insanity to itself, by forcing 2 million Albanians into something that would in the end trigger ten thousand, maybe twenty thousand of them to ware a never-ending war against Serbs, with people who would detonate explosives on their waists in the middle of Belgrade, Novi Sad, Nis...

Patriotic is a person who has courage to take new course when there's need for it. A course that will rather serve people, and not ideas that doom people into misery.

To some extent I do agree with your "Kosovo independence is a narrow-minded 'solution' that has failed and will not solve a thing". But still it means a lucky escape to Serbia.

If you have a different kind of workable solution to this case, one that is non-violent, please, describe it.

And Dragan,

You sound like being a new Enver Hoxha. The Serbia you envision would share similar end than Hoxha's Albania.

The problem Serbia has is that no strong leader has emerged but the best of the group of bad politicians is Kostunica.
(Zoran, 28 February 2011 18:03)

Kostunica is the perfect counterpart of the ex-president László Sólyom. Rigid, some say "autistic", fairly nationalistic rhetoric, not a man easy to handle in diplomatic circles and without sufficiently large number of followers.

Not showing up and essentially sabotaging the meetings with Albanian delegation (regardless who is the participant) was a mistake in retrospect because it opened for Dubya (who was in last months of his term) to support Kosovo UDI openly. Obama just inherited the entire headache - it was Dubya who pushed for UDI non-stop.

As I heard, what Kostunica did was not very productive: at the time the ice was about to break and after many months of tense meetings finally the both delegations begun to talk about their common past serving their duty in JNA and similar. It is a common wisdom that if men begin to talk about years served in the army and their (mis)fortunes with drill sergeants and so - than it's a very good sign of tensions being eased. Russians were pretty happy, Dubya was not. And Kostunica blew the entire thing by not showing up for the meeting - thus helping Bush directly.

In some sense reminds me of László Sólyom, his Turul-misadventures in Ukraine and few unlucky half-official visits in Croatia and Serbia.

Dragan,

It is possible that I have on some occasion compared Serbia with Albania, noting similarities or dissimilarities between them. Have I made wrong conclusions I can't remember. Possibly I have.

But why did I compare you to Enver Hoxha?

For the first, do you remember why Albania broke relation with China?
Hoxha sent a letter of deep dissatisfaction and condemnation to China's communist party due to China's decision to talk with the USA, namely with president Nixon. Hoxha lost his nerves when he heard that China allows Nixon to visit China for talks.

Hoxha created lists of enemy states. Hoxha warned and forbid Albanian citizens of contacts to foreigners, "outsiders".

As Hoxha thought Albania will survive on its own, contacts to outside world were if not totally cut off, at least heavily limited. If a citizen miraculously happened to have a contact with a foreigner he/she was immediately a suspect of working for the interest of outsiders, and usually sentenced as being a traitor to Albanian people.

And this is what you write:

"Nikolic has definitely been talking to the yanks, and who knows what kind of negotiations those were. Be wary of anyone who is getting support, financial or otherwise, from outsiders."

Then you bring up a list of the enemies of Serbia, traitors to Serbian people:

"Cedo Jovanovic, Natasa Kandic, Sonja Biserko, Boris Tadic..."

And then you describe the crime committed by these traitors:

"Once they do this [stay in contact with 'outsiders' and get support from them], these people cease to work for the good of the Serbian citizens but work for the interests of outsiders."

Dragan, your writings immediately brought Hoxha and his principles to my mind.

Zoran,

We'll talk thru this "more than autonomy, less than independence" issue some day in Belgrade, around a beer table. It is a VERY complicated issue, in my view too complicated to succeed.

But we can start talking here. If your plan doesn't include imposing the agreement on Albanians you must get them to support it. First I'll ask you:

Why do you think Albanians would accept "more than autonomy..." solution? What does it offer them, how would they benefit?

How would you turn Albanians away from their dream of United Albanian Lands?

What would you do with those Albanians that turned down the deal, even if majority (by a miracle) accepted it?

Olli

Dragan,

According to you I was "comparing a free and open society to one of the most repressive regimes ever". How's that? I said you sounded like Hoxha, and that your writings brought Hoxha to my mind. As far as I understand these aren't equal in meaning.

The way you label persons "serving interests of outsiders", in other words traitors, is Hoxha style. Or do you mean that calling them so is your democratic right? Maybe a proof of freedom of speech in Serbia?

I say yours is a rather poor attempt to discredit people whose political views differ from yours. But you "work for the good of Serbian citizens"? Hoxha announced that he did so, too, for the good of Albanian citizens...

Olli, I'm only suggesting a model that has been in place for decades. K-Albanian's ruling themselves and the same with K-Serbians. We have had parallel structures for decades and that is what I am suggesting.

The problems start when one structure believes it has authority over the other. These people are doing the exact opposite to what they are resisting, i.e. they don't want to be ruled by the other side but want to rule them. A pointless power game.

More than autonomy, less than independence is the reality. Attempting to change that will bring instability. In fact, I have always maintained that it is self-fulfilling. We are there already and just need the final stamp, which I am hopeful will be achieved with the coming negotiations. I just hope that we don't have any sell-outs on either side as a fake compromise will again cause instability.

The way to get peace is to give each side enough to keep them happy so they won't risk losing it. A functional partition with agreements in place for co-operation - freedom of travel, transportation, local taxes and respect for each other to name a few.

The reality is that unless there is another war, independence has failed and Serbia cannot gain full control over the entire territory.

Give me a shout when next in Belgarde. zorank@email.com

Danilo, Hong Kong didn't try independence but "Kosova" did and failed. China worked out a model for Hong Kong that worked - one nation, two systems. It is essentially more than autonomous less than independent, just in a way that suits the region. They have their own passports and independence in all respects except for foreign relations and military defence.

The Republic of China (Taiwan) vs. The People's Republic of China (China), now they are all Chinese and the problem here is not reunification as most on both sides want that. The problem is that both sides claim to be the rightful government over all of China. More details here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_reunification

Each case is unique and needs to be negotiated as such.

Zoran,

Why would the Albanians agree to such a plan?

Serbia really doesn't have much to offer the Albanians. They're just looking to take.

Jugoslavija you call being totally against the extradition of Milosevic and then extradicting him knowing what to do? That is a bad example. Obviously his being completely against something and doing it anyway is bad, but knowing what to do (not to extradicte him) and then doing the opposite does not do him any credit. Obviously this was an example of his not knowing what to do and being forced to do something.

To this day Kostunica complains that he was forced to do this against his will by his advisors at the time, by his election partners and by the dreaded west. Poor guy, we should all feel so sorry for him!

Amending the constitution is not a way to resolve the Kosovo situation. The only way to deal with that is to either deal with the internationals and / or Kosovo Albanians. Its a matter of historical record that Kostunica opposed these talks, whilst Djindjic supported them.

Feel free to give me more examples of Kostunica knowing what to do on any issue. I'm talking about as Prime Minister, not about a legalist living in his own world, writing official documents, not having an original idea in his life and only opposing everything.

The problem is there is nothing...

What a dreamer you are, Zorane.

And how boring your dreams.


"KiM Albanians have pretty much gone as far as they can."

K-Albanian progress is not dependent on Serbian's permission, or is it in any way related to you "feelings" about the matter.

"They can't take the North as that is a red line Tadic/Serbia will go to war over."

ya right. lol.


"That is what we offer. Do you think NATO/US/EU can endlessly throw funds down this black hole?"

you're conflating disparate issues.


"Everyone has agreed to negotiations"

your imagination =/= "everyone"

"it is about normalising relations and facing reality"

You're right!

"Independence is out of the question as it is irreversibly blocked."

Kosovo is independent

"Some people think that getting 100 will change things. Please explain how? "

100 is the threshold for recognition in the UNGA. Not that this really matters, as membership in the UN isn't the be all and end all. see: Taiwan.

"You think "Kosova" will become Independent?"

Depends what you mean by "independent". It is a sovereign nation.

"Gain a UN seat? Take the North? Join with Albania? Become prosperous?"

all disparate issues, unrelated to "Is Kosovo a country?"


"You know KiM Albanians probably have more in common with Serbians than Albanians proper. Look at the Turkish Cypriots, after decades apart they voted to join up with the Greeks. Why didn't they push to join up with Turkey?"

non-sequitor.




I really don't give a flying p-h-u-c-k about Kosovo Albanians, btw. I do, however, get annoyed by blatant stupidity and ill-logic.

I'm truly sorry but only conclusion I can draw from your answer is: You have nothing to offer Albanians in order to get them supporting "more than autonomy..." agreement.
(Olli, 1 March 2011 21:51)
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You are missing the point again Olli. We don't have to offer them anything. K-Albanians have taken what they can already.

You see, "more than autonomy" is something Serbia has to accept, not Albanians, because our starting position is to offer autonomy. As for KiM Albanians and since their starting position is independence, they will have to accept "Less than independence", not because it is on offering but rather that is the reality.

What else is there? Partition? Well, then we can put BiH in the picture and open a can of worms. The status quo? Who is paying for that? The EU and US right? Why do you think they are so eager for negotiations? As mentioned, they don't want to fund a black hole indefinitely. Another war? That is a possibility at some point down the track. Best to use this window of opportunity to negotiate an agreement I think.

I'm truly sorry but only conclusion I can draw from your answer is: You have nothing to offer Albanians in order to get them supporting "more than autonomy..." agreement.

This matter is not about who gets south or north. It's all about how people will live.
(Olli, 1 March 2011 21:51)

Come on Olli, you know quite a lot about this issue. You know that Albanians wanted to be separated from the rest of Yugoslavia for long time.

Somebody told you about 1981 uprising and so on, paracin army shooting, rapes (sister of my muslim friend from Pec was raped by albanians as one of many) and etc. Milosevic came on power in 1987.

They lived much better than compatriots in Albania, they did not have VAT (ALV) in Kosovo, things were cheaper in Kosovo than rest of Yugoslavia (you still have VAT (ALV) in Rovaniemi, I suppose?).

It was not enough for them they wanted Kosovo to be republic and under shameful constitution written in 1974 by Tito and Kardelj, republics had right to secede.

What ever you offer to them it will not be enough.

Integrating 2 million Albanians into Serbia is huge tasks which is not possible. We all know that, but let them have their independence if is that what makes them happy. Unfortunatelly, many of them will die from hunger in independent Kosovo.

Zoran,

Sorry man nothing wrong with being nationalist its a good thing to love your country, but how would you integrate 2 million people who hate Serbia?

As for war no one is going to war and because of Serbs or albanians but due to US and Russia.

US is already talking about using trepca and french are fighting to get a peace they did not waist their bombs for Albanians but they did it to get good base and natural resources.

Lets wait and see Serbia has Russia as its backer Kosovo Albanians have USA EU is a whore that moves with strongest hand.

as much as people here sit write it wont depend on Serbia nor Kosovo internationals will twist their arm and neither can say no. Serbia is just as bankrupt as Kosovo.

Zoran,

Can you see that you have entered a dead end street?

If "we don't have to offer them anything" is the Serbian way to negotiate... it's better that you don't even start.

If you wish to accomplish anything you have to explain why Albanians would have better life in "less than independence" situation. Not a single time have I heard a single claim about this crucial issue, from a Serbian mouth.

Why would life of a common Kosovo Albanian be any better in condition you suggest? To win a single Kosovar's heart and mind to support this "less than independence" plan you must guarantee his life will be better off, much much better off. And I'm talking about a common man's life. The elite of Kosovo Albanians already are well off, either legally or illegally.

You need grassroots level support from Albanians. And that you will never never get with your "we don't have to offer them anything" slogan which... makes me speechless.


Martin,

I'm not from Rovaniemi, neither do I live there, but for sure Value Added Tax is collected there, as elsewhere in Finland. Even above the Polar Circle, even during the darkest winter days.

Yes, I know about the issue we are talking about now. And I do agree with most you said (I don't believe Kosovars will die from hunger).

I still repeat this: who shows Kosovars a chance for better life conditions wins their minds. For the hearts you need to work even harder. But the question remains: can Serbia offer Kosovars a better life? How would that happen?

2. Ethnic Albanians cannot and should not attempt to control the KiM Serbians (which they are still attempting and sowing the seeds of instability).

re-integrated Albanians in Serbian would form the most powerful parliamentary entity. Re-integrated Albanians would control ALL of Serbia. Sometimes I wish they would just take this road. Re-integrate with Serbia, then separate Kosovo with an act of parliament.


China found a model for Hong Kong so we can find a model for Kosovo. Independence was attempted and it failed.


huh? Independence was never attempted for Hong Kong.


Taiwan would be a closer parallel. Taiwan is an independent country. It doesn't have a seat in the UN and never will. Everyone recognizes it as a country, and almost nobody recognizes it as a country. It's a country.

"What else is there?"

Maybe Serbia forgets about this issue and moves on?

fat chance, I know, but it's kind of ridiculous to fight a hopeless battle, tooth and nail, that, if won, would mean the demise of your state.

Sometimes I think Serbs are sadists (like in official offices. Like putting up a "belgrade is good for business" sign at the airport. Like building tracks on the sidewalk for blind people - that lead right to a pot-hole), but mostly, I think their masochists.

Olli I agree that Serbia should reach out an offer something extra to Kosovo Albanians. But realisticaly what? Its not like Serbs trust their own politicians, so nobody can blame Albanians for not trusting them.

Still I think we should give it a shot and go the extra mile. The problem is that even if our politicians were willing to think out of the box they would be accused of treachery.

The point is if anybody steps out of line, the tactic of calling somebody a traitor or sell out is brandished.

This tactic is designed (as it always it) to stop alternatives being considered.

Frankly I don't blame most ordinary Kosovo Albanians for not wanting to do a deal with Serbia. I don't see many people in the Serbian government willing to reach out. They are more concerned about making popul(ist)ar decisions.

On the other hand its not just about what Serbia can offer Kosovo. Its also about what Kosova can offer Serbs. If you look at it that way the situation is as bad, if not worse. Also the Kosovo Albanians are starting to see what their own leaders are made of, they are no better and arguably worse than the Serbian and Albanian communists of the past that ruled Kosovo.

For me there should be a large focus on who can provide better conditions for 'their' minority. I don't mean worthless guarantees on paper either, I mean the real situation.

This is a general comment, but if both sides are serious I really believe it would be possible to have a solution. If Kosovo could get a committment from Serbia that it had renounced the south of Kosovo and would not block admittance to international organisations I think Kos Albanian negotiators would let the north go. How much territory exactly is another matter.

Question is it is the right time? For the Albanian political leadership it is - the beginning of a new government, plenty of scope for blaming somebody else if the deal isn't good enough for national sentiment. But what about Serbia? A government at the beginning of its term would be willing to take more risks, but this government seems to be living on borrowed time.

This has less to do with policies on the Hague and so on.

Much more to do with the fact that Nikolic is building a DOS style coalition. The problem with that is that it means fewer jobs to go around.

Delic had been promised the defence portfolio if SNS got to power. Looks like SNS had a better offer.
Conversely the SRS has a distinct lack of talent, as seen by the fact that the witless Todorovic is deputy leader.

Guess Delic thinks he can take over SRS once Seselj dies, as lets face it, Seselj is of that 'tradition' of staying party leader until he is carried out in his coffin.

All pretty ridiculous really.

Zoran, you are free to dream of other Kosovo solutions. But be honest, dreams are far from reality. What is your workable solution? Give me a solution that wouldn't demand turning Serbia into a police state in constant state of emergency.

Build such Serbia that Kosovars come to suggest negotiations of joined fortunes and prospects. Otherwise you would need violence to keep it together, continuous suffering in both sides, actions that would drain not only all material resources but also all mental, human resources.

Being patriotic Serb doesn't mean being a trunk of tree that doesn't know to bend in wind and survive. Why should Serbia break itself, cause insanity to itself, by forcing 2 million Albanians into something that would in the end trigger ten thousand, maybe twenty thousand of them to ware a never-ending war against Serbs, with people who would detonate explosives on their waists in the middle of Belgrade, Novi Sad, Nis...

Patriotic is a person who has courage to take new course when there's need for it. A course that will rather serve people, and not ideas that doom people into misery.

To some extent I do agree with your "Kosovo independence is a narrow-minded 'solution' that has failed and will not solve a thing". But still it means a lucky escape to Serbia.

If you have a different kind of workable solution to this case, one that is non-violent, please, describe it.

And Dragan,

You sound like being a new Enver Hoxha. The Serbia you envision would share similar end than Hoxha's Albania.

Contrary to Ataman's conclutions I'm getting more optimistic.

These so-called parties DSS, SRS and SNS are in fact just groupings of people around one person, the party founder. These parties live and will die together with their founders. Their programs consist of mixed bag of party founders' views and fixed ideas, usually based on negative and arrogant attitudes, and on inability for fresh thinking.

This is in growing scale understood by the citizenry. And this means I'm getting more optimistic.

But poor those people who will lay their and Serbia's future on Seselj. My comprehension isn't enough to figure out why they haven't learnt anything yet.

My comprehension isn't enough to figure out why they haven't learnt anything yet.
(Olli, 28 February 2011 16:52)
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Of course not Olli, you think Kosovo independence is a good idea so how can you comprehend what patriotic Serbians might want for their country?

Kosovo independence is a narrow-minded "solution" that has failed and will not solve a thing. In fact, it rewards terrorists and criminals, who have flourished in the region since 1999.

The problem Serbia has is that no strong leader has emerged but the best of the group of bad politicians is Kostunica.

bganon, so SNS found a NATO friendly defence minister? Not too surprising.

Unfortunately Nikolic has sold out.

Nikolic has definitely been talking to the yanks, and who knows what kind of negotiations those were. Be wary of anyone who is getting support, financial or otherwise, from outsiders (Examples...Cedo Jovanovic, Natasa Kandic, Sonja Biserko, Boris Tadic....).
Once they do this, these people cease to work for the good of the Serbian citizens but work for the interests of outsiders.
I think the yanks are seeing that Tadic may be losing popularity quickly, and are looking for a second 'electable' horse to back and put in their pockets.
Let's not forget that these yanks are the same people who supported Mubarak for 30 years and have no problems supporting ANYONE who listens to them and is obedient to them.

Zoran I guess its not too suprising that the level of patriotism of an individual in politics is measured in terms of how much money they can make out of it. Delic worked out that greater personal gain was with SRS so he returned. No doubt he would return to SNS again if the price was right.

Another one is Zoran Stankovic, one a favourite of 'patriots', a childhood friend of Ratko Mladic who appeared at the Hague (or NATO Court as you call it) to set the prosecution straight on a number of cases.

Now he is a member of G17 and wants to lead Serbia into NATO.

Serbian politics is littered who preach patriotism in public and preach something completely different in private.

Thats not to say that most most politicians are guilty of that, they are, but those die hard believers on the right - their hearts would be completely broken if they knew who they were voting for. Most centerists know that their party leaders don't have principles.

Dragan,

According to you I was "comparing a free and open society to one of the most repressive regimes ever". How's that? I said you sounded like Hoxha, and that your writings brought Hoxha to my mind. As far as I understand these aren't equal in meaning.

The way you label persons "serving interests of outsiders", in other words traitors, is Hoxha style. Or do you mean that calling them so is your democratic right? Maybe a proof of freedom of speech in Serbia?

I say yours is a rather poor attempt to discredit people whose political views differ from yours. But you "work for the good of Serbian citizens"? Hoxha announced that he did so, too, for the good of Albanian citizens...

Here is the proof that Nikolic has sold out in the true sense of the word. I have written about this “Judas goat” and now it’s in the open for all to see. Nikolic enriched himself during the Milosevic years and wanted to turn the Radicals into a western poodle so he could continue to get paid.
“….never learned what the SNS program was", and that he was told this was because it was "written in English".
How stupid are these people you ask? Well they are as dumb as their masters who were even too lazy to translate it into Serbian. Tells you a lot about US/EU competence.

Dragan,

It is possible that I have on some occasion compared Serbia with Albania, noting similarities or dissimilarities between them. Have I made wrong conclusions I can't remember. Possibly I have.

But why did I compare you to Enver Hoxha?

For the first, do you remember why Albania broke relation with China?
Hoxha sent a letter of deep dissatisfaction and condemnation to China's communist party due to China's decision to talk with the USA, namely with president Nixon. Hoxha lost his nerves when he heard that China allows Nixon to visit China for talks.

Hoxha created lists of enemy states. Hoxha warned and forbid Albanian citizens of contacts to foreigners, "outsiders".

As Hoxha thought Albania will survive on its own, contacts to outside world were if not totally cut off, at least heavily limited. If a citizen miraculously happened to have a contact with a foreigner he/she was immediately a suspect of working for the interest of outsiders, and usually sentenced as being a traitor to Albanian people.

And this is what you write:

"Nikolic has definitely been talking to the yanks, and who knows what kind of negotiations those were. Be wary of anyone who is getting support, financial or otherwise, from outsiders."

Then you bring up a list of the enemies of Serbia, traitors to Serbian people:

"Cedo Jovanovic, Natasa Kandic, Sonja Biserko, Boris Tadic..."

And then you describe the crime committed by these traitors:

"Once they do this [stay in contact with 'outsiders' and get support from them], these people cease to work for the good of the Serbian citizens but work for the interests of outsiders."

Dragan, your writings immediately brought Hoxha and his principles to my mind.

NEWS FLASH:

Every Serb is a "radical" so it doesnt matter what political party, team, band, school any of them is a member of.

End of story.

Seems you guys still don't understand. KiM Albanians have pretty much gone as far as they can. After three years do you think they've left a stone unturned? Perhaps a pebble but I doubt any stones are left. What else is there to take? They can't take the North as that is a red line Tadic/Serbia will go to war over. We can't take the South as that would mean instability and war also.

There is nothing left but negotiations my friends as progress is blocked. That is what we offer. Do you think NATO/US/EU can endlessly throw funds down this black hole? Everyone has agreed to negotiations and it is about normalising relations and facing reality. Independence is out of the question as it is irreversibly blocked. Further recognitions are pointless as the important ones have already decided. Some people think that getting 100 will change things. Please explain how?

I am just facing reality and what is on offer is just normalisation of relations. It makes me sick thinking that we have to negotiate with criminals, terrorists and the mafia but that whole province is so tied up in crime that there probably isn't another option at the moment.

Exactly where am I dreaming? You think "Kosova" will become Independent? Gain a UN seat? Take the North? Join with Albania? Become prosperous? You know KiM Albanians probably have more in common with Serbians than Albanians proper. Look at the Turkish Cypriots, after decades apart they voted to join up with the Greeks. Why didn't they push to join up with Turkey?

Olli,
Comparing me to Enver Hoxha is as ridiculous as comparing Serbia to albania, and you have done both.
I have news for you, Serbia is light years ahead of albania in every aspect. Even Kosovo is light years ahead of albania - just compare the infrastructure, education, and standards of living and you will then see why so many albanians illegaly immigrated to Kosovo with Tito's blessing. These ingrates, instead of being thankfull, now are trying to steal sovereign Serbian land with the help of Germany and the US.
In fact the only good thing that has come out of all of this is that the US and EU are now stuck with the bill, paying more and more into that bottomless pit, that fake, illegal, and immoral 'state' which is Kosovo. I am glad that Kosovo will help bankrupt the EU and the US, and speed up the process. Once the empire collapses, Serbia will be ready to take back what is hers.
Cheers!

The problem Serbia has is that no strong leader has emerged but the best of the group of bad politicians is Kostunica.
(Zoran, 28 February 2011 18:03)

Kostunica is the perfect counterpart of the ex-president László Sólyom. Rigid, some say "autistic", fairly nationalistic rhetoric, not a man easy to handle in diplomatic circles and without sufficiently large number of followers.

Not showing up and essentially sabotaging the meetings with Albanian delegation (regardless who is the participant) was a mistake in retrospect because it opened for Dubya (who was in last months of his term) to support Kosovo UDI openly. Obama just inherited the entire headache - it was Dubya who pushed for UDI non-stop.

As I heard, what Kostunica did was not very productive: at the time the ice was about to break and after many months of tense meetings finally the both delegations begun to talk about their common past serving their duty in JNA and similar. It is a common wisdom that if men begin to talk about years served in the army and their (mis)fortunes with drill sergeants and so - than it's a very good sign of tensions being eased. Russians were pretty happy, Dubya was not. And Kostunica blew the entire thing by not showing up for the meeting - thus helping Bush directly.

In some sense reminds me of László Sólyom, his Turul-misadventures in Ukraine and few unlucky half-official visits in Croatia and Serbia.

Zoran,

I'm afraid you are dreaming away. Instead, try to answer Danilo's question:

"Why would the Albanians agree to such a plan?"

You must go to the basics. What could you offer Albanians to get them to agree about the plan? What?

What a dreamer you are, Zorane.

And how boring your dreams.


"KiM Albanians have pretty much gone as far as they can."

K-Albanian progress is not dependent on Serbian's permission, or is it in any way related to you "feelings" about the matter.

"They can't take the North as that is a red line Tadic/Serbia will go to war over."

ya right. lol.


"That is what we offer. Do you think NATO/US/EU can endlessly throw funds down this black hole?"

you're conflating disparate issues.


"Everyone has agreed to negotiations"

your imagination =/= "everyone"

"it is about normalising relations and facing reality"

You're right!

"Independence is out of the question as it is irreversibly blocked."

Kosovo is independent

"Some people think that getting 100 will change things. Please explain how? "

100 is the threshold for recognition in the UNGA. Not that this really matters, as membership in the UN isn't the be all and end all. see: Taiwan.

"You think "Kosova" will become Independent?"

Depends what you mean by "independent". It is a sovereign nation.

"Gain a UN seat? Take the North? Join with Albania? Become prosperous?"

all disparate issues, unrelated to "Is Kosovo a country?"


"You know KiM Albanians probably have more in common with Serbians than Albanians proper. Look at the Turkish Cypriots, after decades apart they voted to join up with the Greeks. Why didn't they push to join up with Turkey?"

non-sequitor.




I really don't give a flying p-h-u-c-k about Kosovo Albanians, btw. I do, however, get annoyed by blatant stupidity and ill-logic.

Jugoslavija you call being totally against the extradition of Milosevic and then extradicting him knowing what to do? That is a bad example. Obviously his being completely against something and doing it anyway is bad, but knowing what to do (not to extradicte him) and then doing the opposite does not do him any credit. Obviously this was an example of his not knowing what to do and being forced to do something.

To this day Kostunica complains that he was forced to do this against his will by his advisors at the time, by his election partners and by the dreaded west. Poor guy, we should all feel so sorry for him!

Amending the constitution is not a way to resolve the Kosovo situation. The only way to deal with that is to either deal with the internationals and / or Kosovo Albanians. Its a matter of historical record that Kostunica opposed these talks, whilst Djindjic supported them.

Feel free to give me more examples of Kostunica knowing what to do on any issue. I'm talking about as Prime Minister, not about a legalist living in his own world, writing official documents, not having an original idea in his life and only opposing everything.

The problem is there is nothing...

Ataman you are actually too kind about Kostunica.

He was too long in government for people to believe only the difficult, uninformed or nationalist tag.

Kostunica is a man that has never offered any solutions. He can only offer criticisms and complains bitterly whenever people don't agree with him. On important decisions Kostunica was utterly paralysed and unwilling to take a position. Compare that to his almost opposite Djindjic who was only interested in solutions and would agree to disagree to move towards a greater goal. Regardless of my differences with Djindjic on policy, a better leader is somebody than can do something, rather than somebody who can do nothing.

Kostunica knows what NOT to do, but does not know what to do. There is nothing worse than somebody like this in government and if Kostunica was honest he would tell you that he prefers to be in opposition. That way he is always right and does not have the burden of responsiblity.

Zoran,

We'll talk thru this "more than autonomy, less than independence" issue some day in Belgrade, around a beer table. It is a VERY complicated issue, in my view too complicated to succeed.

But we can start talking here. If your plan doesn't include imposing the agreement on Albanians you must get them to support it. First I'll ask you:

Why do you think Albanians would accept "more than autonomy..." solution? What does it offer them, how would they benefit?

How would you turn Albanians away from their dream of United Albanian Lands?

What would you do with those Albanians that turned down the deal, even if majority (by a miracle) accepted it?

Olli

Olli,
You fail to mention one very important detail. Serbia is a democracy, and in Serbia people are free to talk to whoever they want. I certainly hope Serbian citizens are smart enough to notice who is working for their interests and who is working for the interests of outsiders. With your silly comparison with Enver Hoxha, this was not the case now was it?
Next time please try have logical arguments if you want to have a battle of wits. Comparing a free and open society to one of the most repressive regimes ever is just plain dumb.

Olli, I'm only suggesting a model that has been in place for decades. K-Albanian's ruling themselves and the same with K-Serbians. We have had parallel structures for decades and that is what I am suggesting.

The problems start when one structure believes it has authority over the other. These people are doing the exact opposite to what they are resisting, i.e. they don't want to be ruled by the other side but want to rule them. A pointless power game.

More than autonomy, less than independence is the reality. Attempting to change that will bring instability. In fact, I have always maintained that it is self-fulfilling. We are there already and just need the final stamp, which I am hopeful will be achieved with the coming negotiations. I just hope that we don't have any sell-outs on either side as a fake compromise will again cause instability.

The way to get peace is to give each side enough to keep them happy so they won't risk losing it. A functional partition with agreements in place for co-operation - freedom of travel, transportation, local taxes and respect for each other to name a few.

The reality is that unless there is another war, independence has failed and Serbia cannot gain full control over the entire territory.

Give me a shout when next in Belgarde. zorank@email.com

Zoran,

Why would the Albanians agree to such a plan?

Serbia really doesn't have much to offer the Albanians. They're just looking to take.

I'm truly sorry but only conclusion I can draw from your answer is: You have nothing to offer Albanians in order to get them supporting "more than autonomy..." agreement.
(Olli, 1 March 2011 21:51)
--
You are missing the point again Olli. We don't have to offer them anything. K-Albanians have taken what they can already.

You see, "more than autonomy" is something Serbia has to accept, not Albanians, because our starting position is to offer autonomy. As for KiM Albanians and since their starting position is independence, they will have to accept "Less than independence", not because it is on offering but rather that is the reality.

What else is there? Partition? Well, then we can put BiH in the picture and open a can of worms. The status quo? Who is paying for that? The EU and US right? Why do you think they are so eager for negotiations? As mentioned, they don't want to fund a black hole indefinitely. Another war? That is a possibility at some point down the track. Best to use this window of opportunity to negotiate an agreement I think.

Unfortunately Nikolic has sold out.
(Zoran, 28 February 2011 13:24)

There you go - like your neighbor in north. Everyone sold out except one party but it's program is either unacceptable or the party's past is unacceptable.

I am getting more pessimistic.

Olli, I have described my thinking many times. It falls along the lines of "more than autonomy, less than independence".

The guidelines are fairly simple.

1. Serbia does not want to and should not attempt to control KiM Albanians. They get self-rule (pretty much what they have now).

2. Ethnic Albanians cannot and should not attempt to control the KiM Serbians (which they are still attempting and sowing the seeds of instability).

3. The territory should come under a shared agreement. This debate about Serbia's sovereignty or independence really is pointless. It is attempting to find a solution within a limited black and white box. Why? If the system is flawed, change it!

China found a model for Hong Kong so we can find a model for Kosovo. Independence was attempted and it failed.

Yes, I am a patriotic Serbian. I love my country and want the best for it. I accept that it is multicultural and all citizens should be treated with respect. We should remain a free, independent and neutral country without the evils of foreign manipulation. That means no EU also.

2. Ethnic Albanians cannot and should not attempt to control the KiM Serbians (which they are still attempting and sowing the seeds of instability).

re-integrated Albanians in Serbian would form the most powerful parliamentary entity. Re-integrated Albanians would control ALL of Serbia. Sometimes I wish they would just take this road. Re-integrate with Serbia, then separate Kosovo with an act of parliament.


China found a model for Hong Kong so we can find a model for Kosovo. Independence was attempted and it failed.


huh? Independence was never attempted for Hong Kong.


Taiwan would be a closer parallel. Taiwan is an independent country. It doesn't have a seat in the UN and never will. Everyone recognizes it as a country, and almost nobody recognizes it as a country. It's a country.

Danilo, Hong Kong didn't try independence but "Kosova" did and failed. China worked out a model for Hong Kong that worked - one nation, two systems. It is essentially more than autonomous less than independent, just in a way that suits the region. They have their own passports and independence in all respects except for foreign relations and military defence.

The Republic of China (Taiwan) vs. The People's Republic of China (China), now they are all Chinese and the problem here is not reunification as most on both sides want that. The problem is that both sides claim to be the rightful government over all of China. More details here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_reunification

Each case is unique and needs to be negotiated as such.

Kostunica knows what NOT to do, but does not know what to do. (bganon, 1 March 2011 01:48)

RE: Kostunica-

Kostunica is a dogmatic constitutionalist, the two most promiment decisions he made during his tenure as PM were the following:

(1) Sending Milosevic to the Hague Tribunal against the Serbian Constitution and predicated against the acceptance of "US Aid" which amount to nothing more than bribes. Djindic of course gave the order, but Kostunica against his better judgement finaly relinquished and released Milosevic to the Hague Trubinal and without as so much as an indictment from the Belgrade courts which could not find any evidence against him. The Hague Tribunal could not prove the case against him either.

(2) Kostunica amended the consitution to reinforce that Kosovo and Metojia is sovereign under the Republic of Serbia. No Serbian leader will dare change the constituion to allow the Albanians to steal it which will amount to political suicide.

Kostunica certainly knew what to do; the problem is he did not have broad enough support to get it all done.

Zoran,

I'm truly sorry but only conclusion I can draw from your answer is: You have nothing to offer Albanians in order to get them supporting "more than autonomy..." agreement.

I'm not siding with them but I can see a fact.

This matter is not about who gets south or north. It's all about how people will live.

I'm truly sorry but only conclusion I can draw from your answer is: You have nothing to offer Albanians in order to get them supporting "more than autonomy..." agreement.

This matter is not about who gets south or north. It's all about how people will live.
(Olli, 1 March 2011 21:51)

Come on Olli, you know quite a lot about this issue. You know that Albanians wanted to be separated from the rest of Yugoslavia for long time.

Somebody told you about 1981 uprising and so on, paracin army shooting, rapes (sister of my muslim friend from Pec was raped by albanians as one of many) and etc. Milosevic came on power in 1987.

They lived much better than compatriots in Albania, they did not have VAT (ALV) in Kosovo, things were cheaper in Kosovo than rest of Yugoslavia (you still have VAT (ALV) in Rovaniemi, I suppose?).

It was not enough for them they wanted Kosovo to be republic and under shameful constitution written in 1974 by Tito and Kardelj, republics had right to secede.

What ever you offer to them it will not be enough.

Integrating 2 million Albanians into Serbia is huge tasks which is not possible. We all know that, but let them have their independence if is that what makes them happy. Unfortunatelly, many of them will die from hunger in independent Kosovo.

Zoran,

Sorry man nothing wrong with being nationalist its a good thing to love your country, but how would you integrate 2 million people who hate Serbia?

As for war no one is going to war and because of Serbs or albanians but due to US and Russia.

US is already talking about using trepca and french are fighting to get a peace they did not waist their bombs for Albanians but they did it to get good base and natural resources.

Lets wait and see Serbia has Russia as its backer Kosovo Albanians have USA EU is a whore that moves with strongest hand.

as much as people here sit write it wont depend on Serbia nor Kosovo internationals will twist their arm and neither can say no. Serbia is just as bankrupt as Kosovo.

Zoran,

Can you see that you have entered a dead end street?

If "we don't have to offer them anything" is the Serbian way to negotiate... it's better that you don't even start.

If you wish to accomplish anything you have to explain why Albanians would have better life in "less than independence" situation. Not a single time have I heard a single claim about this crucial issue, from a Serbian mouth.

Why would life of a common Kosovo Albanian be any better in condition you suggest? To win a single Kosovar's heart and mind to support this "less than independence" plan you must guarantee his life will be better off, much much better off. And I'm talking about a common man's life. The elite of Kosovo Albanians already are well off, either legally or illegally.

You need grassroots level support from Albanians. And that you will never never get with your "we don't have to offer them anything" slogan which... makes me speechless.


Martin,

I'm not from Rovaniemi, neither do I live there, but for sure Value Added Tax is collected there, as elsewhere in Finland. Even above the Polar Circle, even during the darkest winter days.

Yes, I know about the issue we are talking about now. And I do agree with most you said (I don't believe Kosovars will die from hunger).

I still repeat this: who shows Kosovars a chance for better life conditions wins their minds. For the hearts you need to work even harder. But the question remains: can Serbia offer Kosovars a better life? How would that happen?

"What else is there?"

Maybe Serbia forgets about this issue and moves on?

fat chance, I know, but it's kind of ridiculous to fight a hopeless battle, tooth and nail, that, if won, would mean the demise of your state.

Sometimes I think Serbs are sadists (like in official offices. Like putting up a "belgrade is good for business" sign at the airport. Like building tracks on the sidewalk for blind people - that lead right to a pot-hole), but mostly, I think their masochists.

Olli I agree that Serbia should reach out an offer something extra to Kosovo Albanians. But realisticaly what? Its not like Serbs trust their own politicians, so nobody can blame Albanians for not trusting them.

Still I think we should give it a shot and go the extra mile. The problem is that even if our politicians were willing to think out of the box they would be accused of treachery.

The point is if anybody steps out of line, the tactic of calling somebody a traitor or sell out is brandished.

This tactic is designed (as it always it) to stop alternatives being considered.

Frankly I don't blame most ordinary Kosovo Albanians for not wanting to do a deal with Serbia. I don't see many people in the Serbian government willing to reach out. They are more concerned about making popul(ist)ar decisions.

On the other hand its not just about what Serbia can offer Kosovo. Its also about what Kosova can offer Serbs. If you look at it that way the situation is as bad, if not worse. Also the Kosovo Albanians are starting to see what their own leaders are made of, they are no better and arguably worse than the Serbian and Albanian communists of the past that ruled Kosovo.

For me there should be a large focus on who can provide better conditions for 'their' minority. I don't mean worthless guarantees on paper either, I mean the real situation.

This is a general comment, but if both sides are serious I really believe it would be possible to have a solution. If Kosovo could get a committment from Serbia that it had renounced the south of Kosovo and would not block admittance to international organisations I think Kos Albanian negotiators would let the north go. How much territory exactly is another matter.

Question is it is the right time? For the Albanian political leadership it is - the beginning of a new government, plenty of scope for blaming somebody else if the deal isn't good enough for national sentiment. But what about Serbia? A government at the beginning of its term would be willing to take more risks, but this government seems to be living on borrowed time.