U.S. vetoes UN resolution on Israel

"The USA as always still mailtains its unprincipled, unquestioning practical support for the Israeli expansionist agenda.
(Leonidas, 19 February 2011 13:41) "

Agree with you 100%! Yankee hypocrisy and double standards!

Hey, where's the likes of Amer, KKOSO, Roberto of frisco, Joe of the supposed "gated community" (probably to hide from street hoodlums), etc etc, ie. all those Yankees/pro-Yankees who like to preach about human rights abuses in Serbia, Russia, China, Egypt etc etc..... Your silence here over the plight of the Palestinians is DEAFEANING!!!

The U.S. has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution condemning as "illegal" Jewish settlements on Palestinian territory

B92


One would recall from Obama's State of the Union address where the world "Israel", explicitly or implicitly, did not appear.

Perhaps he found out to his cost that his intervention on the settlement issue wouldn't be tolerated by APACS and therefore decided to "toe the line" by vetoing the UN resolution.

The USA as always still mailtains its unprincipled, unquestioning practical support for the Israeli expansionist agenda.

The amount of time devoted to the Israeli-Arab conflict in the UNSC has been described as excessive by political organizations and academics.

There's no such thing as "international law"

"international law" can mean a number of things.

1) Resolutions by the UN Security Council under chapter 7 of the UN charter. These resolutions can be backed up by force

2) Resolutions by the UN Security Council under chapter 6 of the UN charter. These are "binding" but can't be backed up by force.

3) Sometimes, resolutions in the UN General Assembly referred to as "international law", but it's really not the case. UNGA can't do anything

4) International agreements to which nations in question are signitory

5) Shorthand for agreements between nations.


When people say "Israeli Settlements are illegal under international law", they (if they're just just repeating something they heard) are referring to one of a number of things.

1) UNSCR 242, stipulates (amongst other things) that Israel must "withdraw from territories captured in the recent conflict"

2) 4th Geneva convention states that an occupying power mustn't transfer it's civilian population into occupied territory in order to change the demographic balance.


In short, without this post turning into a book, there are two problems with this.

1) the 1967 war happened in June and UNSCR 242 was finished in November (I think) of that year, and there is months of debate whether the resolution should read "the territories", "all the territories", or just "territories". The intent of the resolution (when examined next to the other clauses) is to give some flexibility in determining the future, permanent border. As such, one can't say with legal certainty, that Israel hasn't complied with that clause - they withdrew from Sinai.

2) Israel isn't an occupier, as defined by the Geneva conventions, as there is no internationally recognized sovereign entity that Israel took it from. Ottoman empire was the last internationally recognized entity. Israel took the territories from Jordan and Egypt, at the time, and neither of them want it back.


Like a lot of these long-term conflicts, resolutions such as these are either intended to be politically inflammatory, or it's simply a re-stating of existing issues.


All that said, Israel should halt their settlement activity as, right or wrong, it harms peace.

Israel is more important to the US than any other issue in the whole world.

(Danilo, 19 February 2011 16:26

I would agree with you that international law is an illusionary rhetoric to fit the purpose of those with power who are really running the world.Saddam Hussein was executed for crimes against humanity while George Bush didn't even face a prosecution.Law is supposed to be erga omnes.

Now, the suffering of the Palestinians didn't start in 1967 as you claim but in 1948 when Britain decided to resettle Jewish populations from Europe on lands that weren't its own .At the time the Palestinian refugees numbered about 750,000, three-quarters of Palestine's Arab population, but today they are many more. The right of Palestinian return is enshrined in UN law and historical precedent,and affirmed repeatedly by the UN. Resolution 194 was passed by the UN general assembly in December 1948 and called on Israel to repatriate those "displaced by the recent conflict" with compensation for their losses.The 1948 universal declaration of human rights states that those who leave their homes for whatever reason have the absolute right to return to them.

My question to you is how can it ever be morally legitimate for Israel to continue bringing people from foreign lands, oust the resident Palestinian population with guns and bombs and settle its people on those lands ?

Worse, how can can people who claim themselves to be civilised declare such a state 'legal' and, for over sixty years, look the other way from the plight of the Palestinian refugees ?

(lowe, 19 February 2011 15:18)
(Leonidas, 19 February 2011 13:41)

You have both written great comments.

Shame on you Barak Obama..SHAME ON YOU...You just talk the talk..and tell people what they want to hear...But act to support unjustice..SHAME ON YOU.

The US/Israel tandem is the main sponsor of antisemitism. Even inside Irael they have no unity over the new settlements. So supporting one side position is stupid even from Jewish internal politisc point of view. Especially now that the region is boiling up with anti American anti Israel trend.

"Israel vs Israel" is a very good documentary to watch if anyone has the opportunity. Check http://www.israelvsisrael.com/

leonidas.
Now, the suffering of the Palestinians didn't start in 1967 as you claim.
Sorry mate where did he claim that?
(mark, 20 February 2011 09:01

He claims that by implication.When someone starts with the war in 1967 and UN resolution 242 he conveniently ignores
that Jewish settlements did not start in 1967 but 20 years before that and there're few UN resolutions calling on Israel to allow the return of palestinian refugees.

Remove USA from the region and put in a different, impartial mediator for peace talks. problem solved

Will wonders never cease. It seems for the first time ( and hopefully not the last) I totally agree with lowe and Leanoardis and a subject. You are both 100% correct. The one eyed / unjust and hypocrytical stance of the US towards Isreal and the palestineans is disgraceful. One wonders how much of the discrimnatory actions of the Israeli governement fed to the frustratons of the region that have triggered the political upheavel(s).

In this case , we are on the same side.

Leonadis, so now your a mind reader,better stick to commenting about things you seem to understand and not the Arab Israeli conflict.

Good. The UN dictators lost again, as they should have.
Now it's official. Israeli settlements may be unwise, irresponsible or unadvised, but they are "not illegal".

Some people here are saying Israel is not a partner for peace,Israel has always wanted peace.
Why did they return the Sinai to Egypt or pull out of Gaza not to mention the security zone in southern Lebanon.
Israel found itself in possesion of the west bank in 1967 after they pleaded with king Hussein not to join this war to no avail.
Israel does want peace on their terms and not the Arabs.

It's really strange how little support Israel gets from Serbs who talk of Kosovo as their Jerusalem.
(Amer, 19 February 2011 22:10)

The Israelis didn`t like NATO`s intervention in 1999,the vast majority of American Jews(which are the lifeline for Israel)here emphatically supporting it!
People like Clark,Albright,Holbrooke,Kristol,Cohen(all of them Jews) were extremely anti-Serb...
As far as the Middle East conflict is concerned,it interests me like the conflict between Kongo and Ruanda,thats how important it is to me...

"Jewish settlements did not start in 1967 but 20 years before that"

The first Jewish settlement in the West Bank was in 1968 in Hebron.

"Israel is the Jewish state right here [points to Isreal on the map]. Everyone ok with that?"
(D, 20 February 2011 05:25)"

Then what the heck are they doing occupying the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza strip?

"Then what the heck are they doing occupying the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza strip?
(lowe, 20 February 2011 09:44) "

Notwithstanding the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza a few years ago, the short answer is this:

They captured those territories in a war they didn't start. Except for Golan, the powers they captured them from (Egypt and Jordan) didn't and don't want the territories back.

It's been much, much more important for the Arab world to have a thorn pushed into Israel's side than to have peace in the region. Palestinians are just pawns in their game.

leonidas.
Now, the suffering of the Palestinians didn't start in 1967 as you claim.
Sorry mate where did he claim that?

"Me, I've been trying to keep up with the spread of Tunisian Flu. (And working a lot harder on Arabic than I have for years.)

In the past, Israel has been the "only democracy in the Mid-East" and therefore worthy of support. What happens when they are surrounded by Arab democracies will be interesting. If new governments are formed that are willing to live in peace, then there won't need to be so much support in the UNSC, and more pressure can be applied on the Isaelis to deal with the settlements. What started out as a return to their homeland and the struggle for survival has turned into a grab for real-estate. As long as their neighbors were talking of "pushing them into the sea" it was a simple decision, whom to support.

They may soon wish they had accepted the Palestinians' offer during the recent negotiations - they turned down a great deal in hoping to get everything. Now it's time to get serious.

It's really strange how little support Israel gets from Serbs who talk of Kosovo as their Jerusalem.
(Amer, 19 February 2011 22:10) "

Your long tirade contained not one word about the sufferings of the Palestinians. I rest my case.

This whole charade of US backing Israel no matter what is coming to an end very soon. With the democratization of the Middle East, Israel's value to the United States becomes useless (as it already started to become).Notice how this is the only resolution blocked by the US in the last 2 year. Previous administration would block one such resolution a month.
I have seen a significant number of Jews on the TV networks in the US fuming at these protests in the Middle East and openly calling on the US to support dictators,yet in recent past these very same people would beat their chest saying US should support Israel because " they are the only democracy in the region".
The Egyptian situation was a real wake up call to me.It really changed my opinion about a lot of things. I used to thing Israel was truly interested in peace, but they didn't have a partner in the Palestinian side. I no longer think that.

I have come to conclusion that Israel thrives in conflict because they realize without peace they will become an unimportant small country unworthy of special attention and assistant from EU and US. They can no longer claim to be victims of Arab dictators and that horrifies them.
Israel has no intrinsic value to the US in normal circumstances.Israelis are smart enough to realize this, but this also reveals their weak moral stance.
Time is not on the Israel's side, and for the smart people they are they have not realized this yet. Time is really ticking for them......... They will have to live as normal country very soon. What an horrifying prospect :)

The Muslim Brotherhood's participation in elections does not translate into a commitment to democracy and individual rights. The behavior of Hamas since its electoral victory in early 2006 and the recent hijacking of Lebanon's government by Hezbollah demonstrate that well-organized Islamist groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood can use violence, or the threat of violence, to seize the reins of power after an election. The manner in which Muslim extremists came to dominate Iran after a broad coalition of groups including secularists and Marxists ousted the Shah of Iran in 1979 is instructive.

"Hey, where's the likes of Amer,... Your silence here over the plight of the Palestinians is DEAFEANING!!!
(lowe, 19 February 2011 15:18)

Me, I've been trying to keep up with the spread of Tunisian Flu. (And working a lot harder on Arabic than I have for years.)

In the past, Israel has been the "only democracy in the Mid-East" and therefore worthy of support. What happens when they are surrounded by Arab democracies will be interesting. If new governments are formed that are willing to live in peace, then there won't need to be so much support in the UNSC, and more pressure can be applied on the Isaelis to deal with the settlements. What started out as a return to their homeland and the struggle for survival has turned into a grab for real-estate. As long as their neighbors were talking of "pushing them into the sea" it was a simple decision, whom to support.

They may soon wish they had accepted the Palestinians' offer during the recent negotiations - they turned down a great deal in hoping to get everything. Now it's time to get serious.

It's really strange how little support Israel gets from Serbs who talk of Kosovo as their Jerusalem.

"Israel vs Israel" is a very good documentary to watch if anyone has the opportunity. Check [link]/
(Zoran, 19 February 2011 22:07)

I just saw the trailer. Do you have the link to the actual documentary?

One thing is for certain is that people are very irrational about this subject (a subject I have no personal stake in but happen to know a great deal about).

The Arab Israeli conflict is a bit like a rorschach ink-blot test. People will see whatever they want.

For example, Leonidas claims that I somehow claim that palestinan suffering started in 1967. I said no such thing, only that that's when the 1967 war was.

The arab-israeli war can be complicated - especially if you're used to reading only one side of things or somehow predisposed to being prejudiced.

The arab-israeli war caused arab and Jewish refugees, Leonidas - about equal numbers on each side, not the immigration of Jews in the first place. The immigration of Jews, which started in the 1800s caused an economic boom in the region, which also caused Arab immigration to the region. It was only the war of 1948 (which the Arabs started), which caused these massive refugee numbers on both sides.

The Palestinian "right of return" hasn't been "enshrined" in any kind of law any more than Kosovo independence has been "enshrined" by the ICJ. These are all merely advisory bodies to the UNSC.

Arab-Israeli conflict isn't much different today than it was in 1948.

It can be summed up like this:

"Israel is the Jewish state right here [points to Isreal on the map]. Everyone ok with that?"

"Your long tirade contained not one word about the sufferings of the Palestinians. I rest my case.
(lowe, 20 February 2011 13:32) "

Long? tirade? No, just a brief explanation of how one American sees US policy. What does a description of sufferings accomplish? Palestinian leaders made the mistake of trying to use ineffective violence rather than peaceful protest, making it too easy for the Israelis to discredit them in the US. The Israelis can be infuriating (I started learning Arabic from a Palestinian, with helpful corrections offered by everyone in the neighborhood, and heard the other side of the story), but the Palestinians were cursed for too long with bad leaders (Arafat et al.) and the "support" of Mid-East leaders who used them only to distract their own people from their own problems.

The Wall is an abomination, the constantly expanding settlements are an abomination ... but the Palestinians have no chance of winning militarily, and it has sometimes seemed that this is the only way some factions would accept ending them.

It's really strange how little support Israel gets from Serbs who talk of Kosovo as their Jerusalem.
(Amer, 19 February 2011 22:10)

The Israelis didn`t like NATO`s intervention in 1999,the vast majority of American Jews(which are the lifeline for Israel)here emphatically supporting it!
People like Clark,Albright,Holbrooke,Kristol,Cohen(all of them Jews) were extremely anti-Serb...
As far as the Middle East conflict is concerned,it interests me like the conflict between Kongo and Ruanda,thats how important it is to me...
(CG, 20 February 2011 13:50)

Probably the best explanation is the easiest one, too. You answer me, please:
was this "gentleman" a born-again Hungarian nazi a**hole... or a pravoslav Serb?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_Sztojay

I made my choice, you probably have the same choice. :-D

"American Jews are the lifeline for Israel" - this sounds like a common wisdom (and it is).
But if you begin to analyze what really the three keywords in these phrase do mean,

i.e. "American", "Jew" and "Israel" - than you will get more questions than answers.

I don't have answer either, all I can say that my family name is of known Irish/Scottish noble clan, my family is a Holocaust survivor, too - but there are also both pravoslavs from Belarus on the female line and Ashkenazi commoners here and there. Go figure.

Our "friendly" village idiot Joe (if we ever see him, hope not!) will need to increase his rhetoric to include cursing both Irish and Belarus, because the "Hungarian Jew" one just does not fit 100%. But it was amusing to say the least. The February 7 marathon was priceless.

But since Barclay de Tolly was more Russian than vodka with herring... Do we really care that his family name was Scottish? And who was Petöfi-Петровић or Лермонтов - Lermont: a Scott, a Russian or an Armenian?

One is sure: everyone wants to "claim" Лермонтов, Petöfi, Нахимов (apropos, Israel!) or Барклай... but "somehow" no one wants to "claim" Sztójay-Стојаковић or Hitler: one is a "crazy Serb" for Hungarians and "nutty Hungarian" for Serbs, the other is a "crazy Austrian" for Germans and an "insane German" for Austrians.

They may soon wish they had accepted the Palestinians' offer during the recent negotiations - they turned down a great deal in hoping to get everything. Now it's time to get serious.
(Amer, 19 February 2011 22:10)

Amer,

the way I see is that there is no trust on either side - both for a good reason. As long as violence and terrorist acts is openly supported by one side, the other side will act in similar spirit.

In last 60 years NOTHING was done by international community to de-fuse that bomb on both side.

And that both sides (pretty much like Serbs and Albanians) are very emotional people... that does not help.

At least, the involved if it's a mixed family - don't have private problems like lack of emotions... things are pretty hot every day. :-)

I know cases of Albanians from Montenegro married to Hungarian Jews. It's like living on the top of a volcano 7/24, but at least the temper of both parties is "worth" each other. The benefit: involved go to see a Bergman movie and just scratch their head: "What the heck is it about? Poor Swedes, we don't have these problems".

The Egyptian situation was a real wake up call to me.It really changed my opinion about a lot of things. I used to thing Israel was truly interested in peace, but they didn't have a partner in the Palestinian side. I no longer think that.
(Balkan Update)

Only naive people could think that Israel wants peace.
Their strategy is:
pretend that they want peace with the Palestinians to get EU and US aid while at the same time continue building settlements and holding the Palestinian people in ghetto-like conditions with no food,water and work.
The goal of this deliberate strategy is to make the Palestinians move away and ethnically cleanse the West-Bank which they call Galilea,or the heart of biblical Israel.
The Israelis don`t want peace,they want to steal as much land as possible.

We could speak here about a quite genocide perpetrated upon the Palestinian people by the Jews...

“Notwithstanding the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza a few years ago, the short answer is this:

They captured those territories in a war they didn't start. Except for Golan, the powers they captured them from (Egypt and Jordan) didn't and don't want the territories back.

It's been much, much more important for the Arab world to have a thorn pushed into Israel's side than to have peace in the region. Palestinians are just pawns in their game.
(Danilo, 21 February 2011 13:35)”

Israel may have withdrawn from the land territory of Gaza but continued to occupy and blockade its airspace and territorial waters, thereby turning the latter into a huge prison for the Palestinians there. To me that IS continued occupation AND human rights abuse. Wikipedia, for example, stated that “The UN, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, and does not allow the movement of goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea.”

Even if Egypt and Jordan really do not want Gaza and the West Bank back, it is still a lame excuse to use for Israel’s continued violation of the human rights of the Palestinians in these places and its refusal to allow them to establish their own state there.

The importance to the Arab world “to have a thorn” in Israel’s side is no excuse either for Israel’s continued violation of Palestinian human rights to this day. It is Israel, NOT the Arab world, that is violating the rights of these people today.

Egypt and Israel lessened the restrictions starting in June 2010, when the Rafah border crossing from Egypt to Gaza has been partially opened by Egypt, and Egypt’s foreign ministry has made it clear that the crossing will remain open mainly for people, but not for supplies, to go through.
Israel announced that it will allow all strictly civilian goods into Gaza while preventing certain weapons and dual-use items from entering the Hamas-run Gaza.

Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal

Israelis didn’t win Israel in lottery – it is their land.

However it is a shared land with Palestinians.

Israel, International community and US have ignored all the legitimate rights and interests of the Palestinians for 60 years now.

It is obvious that this approach doesn't work. It has been tested for 60 years and brought no peace.

It is due time that the Israeli intellectuals take the faith of their country in their hands

Bullying your neighbour for 60 years is never a smart strategy.

Palestinians will be there and their rights must be respected by Israel.

Being genuine friend of Israel means saying them the truth:

We helped you to ignore and bull Palestinians for 60 years – it didn’t work. We have to rethink this approach.

better stick to commenting about things you seem to understand and not the Arab Israeli conflict.
(mark, 20 February 2011 15:58)

Do i take it then you do understand the Arab-Israeli conflict? It's posters like yourself that haven't got a clue of what's been going on in middle east.

Had it not been for the oil resources in the middle east there wouldn't have been any state of israel.The US needed a sheriff in the area and created Israel.

“Long? tirade? No, just a brief explanation of how one American sees US policy. What does a description of sufferings accomplish? Palestinian leaders made the mistake of trying to use ineffective violence rather than peaceful protest, making it too easy for the Israelis to discredit them in the US. The Israelis can be infuriating (I started learning Arabic from a Palestinian, with helpful corrections offered by everyone in the neighborhood, and heard the other side of the story), but the Palestinians were cursed for too long with bad leaders (Arafat et al.) and the "support" of Mid-East leaders who used them only to distract their own people from their own problems.

The Wall is an abomination, the constantly expanding settlements are an abomination ... but the Palestinians have no chance of winning militarily, and it has sometimes seemed that this is the only way some factions would accept ending them.
(Amer, 20 February 2011 16:31)”

Well it is a long tirade to me. My original point was that Yankees/pro-Yankees like yourself have a penchant to point fingers at countries like Russia, China and Egypt over human rights violations while in the same breath glossed over Israel’s (and by extension the US as its major arms supplier and aid giver) abuse of Palestinian human rights. The fact that you failed up to now to even acknowledge Palestinian suffering at the hands of the Israelis proves this point of mine about your double standards in my opinion!

Our "friendly" village idiot Joe (if we ever see him, hope not!
(Ataman)

Yokel from Szabolcs county may be a more precise name.

(Ataman, 20 February 2011 17:36) -

I never realized how simple I had it! When it comes to determining my nationality, that is.

As for your Serbo-Hungarian villain - there were a lot of people who were convinced that the Germans were the future, and bet too heavily on this conviction. Not only people who handed over Jews - just simple people who considered working in Germany for a few years, or signed up for German lessons with a private tutor ... most of them were smart enough not to write books about it, of course. (I can't remember the exact titles, and they were in Czech, anyway. Written by a young guy who worried more about how his charges at a factory (where he was responsible for the under-age live-in workers) made their beds than what must have been the disappearance of some of them. He had some sense - the diary pages from the time following the Heydrich assassination were somehow "lost."

Leonadis, so now your a mind reader,better stick to commenting about things you seem to understand and not the Arab Israeli conflict.

"The USA as always still mailtains its unprincipled, unquestioning practical support for the Israeli expansionist agenda.
(Leonidas, 19 February 2011 13:41) "

Agree with you 100%! Yankee hypocrisy and double standards!

Hey, where's the likes of Amer, KKOSO, Roberto of frisco, Joe of the supposed "gated community" (probably to hide from street hoodlums), etc etc, ie. all those Yankees/pro-Yankees who like to preach about human rights abuses in Serbia, Russia, China, Egypt etc etc..... Your silence here over the plight of the Palestinians is DEAFEANING!!!

Will wonders never cease. It seems for the first time ( and hopefully not the last) I totally agree with lowe and Leanoardis and a subject. You are both 100% correct. The one eyed / unjust and hypocrytical stance of the US towards Isreal and the palestineans is disgraceful. One wonders how much of the discrimnatory actions of the Israeli governement fed to the frustratons of the region that have triggered the political upheavel(s).

In this case , we are on the same side.

The amount of time devoted to the Israeli-Arab conflict in the UNSC has been described as excessive by political organizations and academics.

The U.S. has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution condemning as "illegal" Jewish settlements on Palestinian territory

B92


One would recall from Obama's State of the Union address where the world "Israel", explicitly or implicitly, did not appear.

Perhaps he found out to his cost that his intervention on the settlement issue wouldn't be tolerated by APACS and therefore decided to "toe the line" by vetoing the UN resolution.

The USA as always still mailtains its unprincipled, unquestioning practical support for the Israeli expansionist agenda.

Israel is more important to the US than any other issue in the whole world.

It's really strange how little support Israel gets from Serbs who talk of Kosovo as their Jerusalem.
(Amer, 19 February 2011 22:10)

The Israelis didn`t like NATO`s intervention in 1999,the vast majority of American Jews(which are the lifeline for Israel)here emphatically supporting it!
People like Clark,Albright,Holbrooke,Kristol,Cohen(all of them Jews) were extremely anti-Serb...
As far as the Middle East conflict is concerned,it interests me like the conflict between Kongo and Ruanda,thats how important it is to me...

better stick to commenting about things you seem to understand and not the Arab Israeli conflict.
(mark, 20 February 2011 15:58)

Do i take it then you do understand the Arab-Israeli conflict? It's posters like yourself that haven't got a clue of what's been going on in middle east.

Had it not been for the oil resources in the middle east there wouldn't have been any state of israel.The US needed a sheriff in the area and created Israel.

(lowe, 19 February 2011 15:18)
(Leonidas, 19 February 2011 13:41)

You have both written great comments.

leonidas.
Now, the suffering of the Palestinians didn't start in 1967 as you claim.
Sorry mate where did he claim that?

leonidas.
Now, the suffering of the Palestinians didn't start in 1967 as you claim.
Sorry mate where did he claim that?
(mark, 20 February 2011 09:01

He claims that by implication.When someone starts with the war in 1967 and UN resolution 242 he conveniently ignores
that Jewish settlements did not start in 1967 but 20 years before that and there're few UN resolutions calling on Israel to allow the return of palestinian refugees.

Israelis didn’t win Israel in lottery – it is their land.

However it is a shared land with Palestinians.

Israel, International community and US have ignored all the legitimate rights and interests of the Palestinians for 60 years now.

It is obvious that this approach doesn't work. It has been tested for 60 years and brought no peace.

It is due time that the Israeli intellectuals take the faith of their country in their hands

Bullying your neighbour for 60 years is never a smart strategy.

Palestinians will be there and their rights must be respected by Israel.

Being genuine friend of Israel means saying them the truth:

We helped you to ignore and bull Palestinians for 60 years – it didn’t work. We have to rethink this approach.

It's really strange how little support Israel gets from Serbs who talk of Kosovo as their Jerusalem.
(Amer, 19 February 2011 22:10)

The Israelis didn`t like NATO`s intervention in 1999,the vast majority of American Jews(which are the lifeline for Israel)here emphatically supporting it!
People like Clark,Albright,Holbrooke,Kristol,Cohen(all of them Jews) were extremely anti-Serb...
As far as the Middle East conflict is concerned,it interests me like the conflict between Kongo and Ruanda,thats how important it is to me...
(CG, 20 February 2011 13:50)

Probably the best explanation is the easiest one, too. You answer me, please:
was this "gentleman" a born-again Hungarian nazi a**hole... or a pravoslav Serb?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_Sztojay

I made my choice, you probably have the same choice. :-D

"American Jews are the lifeline for Israel" - this sounds like a common wisdom (and it is).
But if you begin to analyze what really the three keywords in these phrase do mean,

i.e. "American", "Jew" and "Israel" - than you will get more questions than answers.

I don't have answer either, all I can say that my family name is of known Irish/Scottish noble clan, my family is a Holocaust survivor, too - but there are also both pravoslavs from Belarus on the female line and Ashkenazi commoners here and there. Go figure.

Our "friendly" village idiot Joe (if we ever see him, hope not!) will need to increase his rhetoric to include cursing both Irish and Belarus, because the "Hungarian Jew" one just does not fit 100%. But it was amusing to say the least. The February 7 marathon was priceless.

But since Barclay de Tolly was more Russian than vodka with herring... Do we really care that his family name was Scottish? And who was Petöfi-Петровић or Лермонтов - Lermont: a Scott, a Russian or an Armenian?

One is sure: everyone wants to "claim" Лермонтов, Petöfi, Нахимов (apropos, Israel!) or Барклай... but "somehow" no one wants to "claim" Sztójay-Стојаковић or Hitler: one is a "crazy Serb" for Hungarians and "nutty Hungarian" for Serbs, the other is a "crazy Austrian" for Germans and an "insane German" for Austrians.

(Danilo, 19 February 2011 16:26

I would agree with you that international law is an illusionary rhetoric to fit the purpose of those with power who are really running the world.Saddam Hussein was executed for crimes against humanity while George Bush didn't even face a prosecution.Law is supposed to be erga omnes.

Now, the suffering of the Palestinians didn't start in 1967 as you claim but in 1948 when Britain decided to resettle Jewish populations from Europe on lands that weren't its own .At the time the Palestinian refugees numbered about 750,000, three-quarters of Palestine's Arab population, but today they are many more. The right of Palestinian return is enshrined in UN law and historical precedent,and affirmed repeatedly by the UN. Resolution 194 was passed by the UN general assembly in December 1948 and called on Israel to repatriate those "displaced by the recent conflict" with compensation for their losses.The 1948 universal declaration of human rights states that those who leave their homes for whatever reason have the absolute right to return to them.

My question to you is how can it ever be morally legitimate for Israel to continue bringing people from foreign lands, oust the resident Palestinian population with guns and bombs and settle its people on those lands ?

Worse, how can can people who claim themselves to be civilised declare such a state 'legal' and, for over sixty years, look the other way from the plight of the Palestinian refugees ?

The US/Israel tandem is the main sponsor of antisemitism. Even inside Irael they have no unity over the new settlements. So supporting one side position is stupid even from Jewish internal politisc point of view. Especially now that the region is boiling up with anti American anti Israel trend.

One thing is for certain is that people are very irrational about this subject (a subject I have no personal stake in but happen to know a great deal about).

The Arab Israeli conflict is a bit like a rorschach ink-blot test. People will see whatever they want.

For example, Leonidas claims that I somehow claim that palestinan suffering started in 1967. I said no such thing, only that that's when the 1967 war was.

The arab-israeli war can be complicated - especially if you're used to reading only one side of things or somehow predisposed to being prejudiced.

The arab-israeli war caused arab and Jewish refugees, Leonidas - about equal numbers on each side, not the immigration of Jews in the first place. The immigration of Jews, which started in the 1800s caused an economic boom in the region, which also caused Arab immigration to the region. It was only the war of 1948 (which the Arabs started), which caused these massive refugee numbers on both sides.

The Palestinian "right of return" hasn't been "enshrined" in any kind of law any more than Kosovo independence has been "enshrined" by the ICJ. These are all merely advisory bodies to the UNSC.

Arab-Israeli conflict isn't much different today than it was in 1948.

It can be summed up like this:

"Israel is the Jewish state right here [points to Isreal on the map]. Everyone ok with that?"

"Your long tirade contained not one word about the sufferings of the Palestinians. I rest my case.
(lowe, 20 February 2011 13:32) "

Long? tirade? No, just a brief explanation of how one American sees US policy. What does a description of sufferings accomplish? Palestinian leaders made the mistake of trying to use ineffective violence rather than peaceful protest, making it too easy for the Israelis to discredit them in the US. The Israelis can be infuriating (I started learning Arabic from a Palestinian, with helpful corrections offered by everyone in the neighborhood, and heard the other side of the story), but the Palestinians were cursed for too long with bad leaders (Arafat et al.) and the "support" of Mid-East leaders who used them only to distract their own people from their own problems.

The Wall is an abomination, the constantly expanding settlements are an abomination ... but the Palestinians have no chance of winning militarily, and it has sometimes seemed that this is the only way some factions would accept ending them.

There's no such thing as "international law"

"international law" can mean a number of things.

1) Resolutions by the UN Security Council under chapter 7 of the UN charter. These resolutions can be backed up by force

2) Resolutions by the UN Security Council under chapter 6 of the UN charter. These are "binding" but can't be backed up by force.

3) Sometimes, resolutions in the UN General Assembly referred to as "international law", but it's really not the case. UNGA can't do anything

4) International agreements to which nations in question are signitory

5) Shorthand for agreements between nations.


When people say "Israeli Settlements are illegal under international law", they (if they're just just repeating something they heard) are referring to one of a number of things.

1) UNSCR 242, stipulates (amongst other things) that Israel must "withdraw from territories captured in the recent conflict"

2) 4th Geneva convention states that an occupying power mustn't transfer it's civilian population into occupied territory in order to change the demographic balance.


In short, without this post turning into a book, there are two problems with this.

1) the 1967 war happened in June and UNSCR 242 was finished in November (I think) of that year, and there is months of debate whether the resolution should read "the territories", "all the territories", or just "territories". The intent of the resolution (when examined next to the other clauses) is to give some flexibility in determining the future, permanent border. As such, one can't say with legal certainty, that Israel hasn't complied with that clause - they withdrew from Sinai.

2) Israel isn't an occupier, as defined by the Geneva conventions, as there is no internationally recognized sovereign entity that Israel took it from. Ottoman empire was the last internationally recognized entity. Israel took the territories from Jordan and Egypt, at the time, and neither of them want it back.


Like a lot of these long-term conflicts, resolutions such as these are either intended to be politically inflammatory, or it's simply a re-stating of existing issues.


All that said, Israel should halt their settlement activity as, right or wrong, it harms peace.

Shame on you Barak Obama..SHAME ON YOU...You just talk the talk..and tell people what they want to hear...But act to support unjustice..SHAME ON YOU.

They may soon wish they had accepted the Palestinians' offer during the recent negotiations - they turned down a great deal in hoping to get everything. Now it's time to get serious.
(Amer, 19 February 2011 22:10)

Amer,

the way I see is that there is no trust on either side - both for a good reason. As long as violence and terrorist acts is openly supported by one side, the other side will act in similar spirit.

In last 60 years NOTHING was done by international community to de-fuse that bomb on both side.

And that both sides (pretty much like Serbs and Albanians) are very emotional people... that does not help.

At least, the involved if it's a mixed family - don't have private problems like lack of emotions... things are pretty hot every day. :-)

I know cases of Albanians from Montenegro married to Hungarian Jews. It's like living on the top of a volcano 7/24, but at least the temper of both parties is "worth" each other. The benefit: involved go to see a Bergman movie and just scratch their head: "What the heck is it about? Poor Swedes, we don't have these problems".

"Israel vs Israel" is a very good documentary to watch if anyone has the opportunity. Check http://www.israelvsisrael.com/

"Me, I've been trying to keep up with the spread of Tunisian Flu. (And working a lot harder on Arabic than I have for years.)

In the past, Israel has been the "only democracy in the Mid-East" and therefore worthy of support. What happens when they are surrounded by Arab democracies will be interesting. If new governments are formed that are willing to live in peace, then there won't need to be so much support in the UNSC, and more pressure can be applied on the Isaelis to deal with the settlements. What started out as a return to their homeland and the struggle for survival has turned into a grab for real-estate. As long as their neighbors were talking of "pushing them into the sea" it was a simple decision, whom to support.

They may soon wish they had accepted the Palestinians' offer during the recent negotiations - they turned down a great deal in hoping to get everything. Now it's time to get serious.

It's really strange how little support Israel gets from Serbs who talk of Kosovo as their Jerusalem.
(Amer, 19 February 2011 22:10) "

Your long tirade contained not one word about the sufferings of the Palestinians. I rest my case.

“Long? tirade? No, just a brief explanation of how one American sees US policy. What does a description of sufferings accomplish? Palestinian leaders made the mistake of trying to use ineffective violence rather than peaceful protest, making it too easy for the Israelis to discredit them in the US. The Israelis can be infuriating (I started learning Arabic from a Palestinian, with helpful corrections offered by everyone in the neighborhood, and heard the other side of the story), but the Palestinians were cursed for too long with bad leaders (Arafat et al.) and the "support" of Mid-East leaders who used them only to distract their own people from their own problems.

The Wall is an abomination, the constantly expanding settlements are an abomination ... but the Palestinians have no chance of winning militarily, and it has sometimes seemed that this is the only way some factions would accept ending them.
(Amer, 20 February 2011 16:31)”

Well it is a long tirade to me. My original point was that Yankees/pro-Yankees like yourself have a penchant to point fingers at countries like Russia, China and Egypt over human rights violations while in the same breath glossed over Israel’s (and by extension the US as its major arms supplier and aid giver) abuse of Palestinian human rights. The fact that you failed up to now to even acknowledge Palestinian suffering at the hands of the Israelis proves this point of mine about your double standards in my opinion!

"Israel vs Israel" is a very good documentary to watch if anyone has the opportunity. Check [link]/
(Zoran, 19 February 2011 22:07)

I just saw the trailer. Do you have the link to the actual documentary?

The Egyptian situation was a real wake up call to me.It really changed my opinion about a lot of things. I used to thing Israel was truly interested in peace, but they didn't have a partner in the Palestinian side. I no longer think that.
(Balkan Update)

Only naive people could think that Israel wants peace.
Their strategy is:
pretend that they want peace with the Palestinians to get EU and US aid while at the same time continue building settlements and holding the Palestinian people in ghetto-like conditions with no food,water and work.
The goal of this deliberate strategy is to make the Palestinians move away and ethnically cleanse the West-Bank which they call Galilea,or the heart of biblical Israel.
The Israelis don`t want peace,they want to steal as much land as possible.

We could speak here about a quite genocide perpetrated upon the Palestinian people by the Jews...

“Notwithstanding the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza a few years ago, the short answer is this:

They captured those territories in a war they didn't start. Except for Golan, the powers they captured them from (Egypt and Jordan) didn't and don't want the territories back.

It's been much, much more important for the Arab world to have a thorn pushed into Israel's side than to have peace in the region. Palestinians are just pawns in their game.
(Danilo, 21 February 2011 13:35)”

Israel may have withdrawn from the land territory of Gaza but continued to occupy and blockade its airspace and territorial waters, thereby turning the latter into a huge prison for the Palestinians there. To me that IS continued occupation AND human rights abuse. Wikipedia, for example, stated that “The UN, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, and does not allow the movement of goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea.”

Even if Egypt and Jordan really do not want Gaza and the West Bank back, it is still a lame excuse to use for Israel’s continued violation of the human rights of the Palestinians in these places and its refusal to allow them to establish their own state there.

The importance to the Arab world “to have a thorn” in Israel’s side is no excuse either for Israel’s continued violation of Palestinian human rights to this day. It is Israel, NOT the Arab world, that is violating the rights of these people today.

"Hey, where's the likes of Amer,... Your silence here over the plight of the Palestinians is DEAFEANING!!!
(lowe, 19 February 2011 15:18)

Me, I've been trying to keep up with the spread of Tunisian Flu. (And working a lot harder on Arabic than I have for years.)

In the past, Israel has been the "only democracy in the Mid-East" and therefore worthy of support. What happens when they are surrounded by Arab democracies will be interesting. If new governments are formed that are willing to live in peace, then there won't need to be so much support in the UNSC, and more pressure can be applied on the Isaelis to deal with the settlements. What started out as a return to their homeland and the struggle for survival has turned into a grab for real-estate. As long as their neighbors were talking of "pushing them into the sea" it was a simple decision, whom to support.

They may soon wish they had accepted the Palestinians' offer during the recent negotiations - they turned down a great deal in hoping to get everything. Now it's time to get serious.

It's really strange how little support Israel gets from Serbs who talk of Kosovo as their Jerusalem.

"Israel is the Jewish state right here [points to Isreal on the map]. Everyone ok with that?"
(D, 20 February 2011 05:25)"

Then what the heck are they doing occupying the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza strip?

This whole charade of US backing Israel no matter what is coming to an end very soon. With the democratization of the Middle East, Israel's value to the United States becomes useless (as it already started to become).Notice how this is the only resolution blocked by the US in the last 2 year. Previous administration would block one such resolution a month.
I have seen a significant number of Jews on the TV networks in the US fuming at these protests in the Middle East and openly calling on the US to support dictators,yet in recent past these very same people would beat their chest saying US should support Israel because " they are the only democracy in the region".
The Egyptian situation was a real wake up call to me.It really changed my opinion about a lot of things. I used to thing Israel was truly interested in peace, but they didn't have a partner in the Palestinian side. I no longer think that.

I have come to conclusion that Israel thrives in conflict because they realize without peace they will become an unimportant small country unworthy of special attention and assistant from EU and US. They can no longer claim to be victims of Arab dictators and that horrifies them.
Israel has no intrinsic value to the US in normal circumstances.Israelis are smart enough to realize this, but this also reveals their weak moral stance.
Time is not on the Israel's side, and for the smart people they are they have not realized this yet. Time is really ticking for them......... They will have to live as normal country very soon. What an horrifying prospect :)

Remove USA from the region and put in a different, impartial mediator for peace talks. problem solved

"Then what the heck are they doing occupying the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza strip?
(lowe, 20 February 2011 09:44) "

Notwithstanding the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza a few years ago, the short answer is this:

They captured those territories in a war they didn't start. Except for Golan, the powers they captured them from (Egypt and Jordan) didn't and don't want the territories back.

It's been much, much more important for the Arab world to have a thorn pushed into Israel's side than to have peace in the region. Palestinians are just pawns in their game.

"Jewish settlements did not start in 1967 but 20 years before that"

The first Jewish settlement in the West Bank was in 1968 in Hebron.

Our "friendly" village idiot Joe (if we ever see him, hope not!
(Ataman)

Yokel from Szabolcs county may be a more precise name.

(Ataman, 20 February 2011 17:36) -

I never realized how simple I had it! When it comes to determining my nationality, that is.

As for your Serbo-Hungarian villain - there were a lot of people who were convinced that the Germans were the future, and bet too heavily on this conviction. Not only people who handed over Jews - just simple people who considered working in Germany for a few years, or signed up for German lessons with a private tutor ... most of them were smart enough not to write books about it, of course. (I can't remember the exact titles, and they were in Czech, anyway. Written by a young guy who worried more about how his charges at a factory (where he was responsible for the under-age live-in workers) made their beds than what must have been the disappearance of some of them. He had some sense - the diary pages from the time following the Heydrich assassination were somehow "lost."

Good. The UN dictators lost again, as they should have.
Now it's official. Israeli settlements may be unwise, irresponsible or unadvised, but they are "not illegal".

Some people here are saying Israel is not a partner for peace,Israel has always wanted peace.
Why did they return the Sinai to Egypt or pull out of Gaza not to mention the security zone in southern Lebanon.
Israel found itself in possesion of the west bank in 1967 after they pleaded with king Hussein not to join this war to no avail.
Israel does want peace on their terms and not the Arabs.

The Muslim Brotherhood's participation in elections does not translate into a commitment to democracy and individual rights. The behavior of Hamas since its electoral victory in early 2006 and the recent hijacking of Lebanon's government by Hezbollah demonstrate that well-organized Islamist groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood can use violence, or the threat of violence, to seize the reins of power after an election. The manner in which Muslim extremists came to dominate Iran after a broad coalition of groups including secularists and Marxists ousted the Shah of Iran in 1979 is instructive.

Egypt and Israel lessened the restrictions starting in June 2010, when the Rafah border crossing from Egypt to Gaza has been partially opened by Egypt, and Egypt’s foreign ministry has made it clear that the crossing will remain open mainly for people, but not for supplies, to go through.
Israel announced that it will allow all strictly civilian goods into Gaza while preventing certain weapons and dual-use items from entering the Hamas-run Gaza.

Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal